Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / The Screen Mistake Parents Don't See Until It's Too Late [with Madonna King]

Transcript

The Screen Mistake Parents Don't See Until It's Too Late [with Madonna King] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:05
Speaker 1: This is The Happy Family's podcast. Thanks so much for
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Speaker 1: joining me today. We banned social media for under sixteens
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Speaker 1: in Australia a few months back December ten last year,
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Speaker 1: and a whole lot of parents around the nation breathed
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Speaker 1: the sigh of relief because the job was done right.
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Speaker 1: Well maybe not, in fact, not even close. On our
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Speaker 1: doctor's desk episodes of The Happy Family's podcast, we've been
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Speaker 1: unpicking the latest research showing that it's not working quite
0:31
Speaker 1: as well as we'd like. My guest today spoke with
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Speaker 1: hundreds of parents, kids, teachers, psychologists, scientists and experts and
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Speaker 1: what she found will change how you think about every
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Speaker 1: screen in your house, particularly the ones that your kids
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Speaker 1: can see, but maybe even yours as well. Madonna King
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Speaker 1: has a new book. It's called screen Wise. Madonna is prolific.
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Speaker 1: She has had a huge impact in the parenting conversation.
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Speaker 1: This is another part of the conversation that every parent
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Speaker 1: needs to hear. Stay with us Madonna King on the
1:06
Speaker 1: pod next. This is the Happy Family's podcast, where you
1:11
Speaker 1: get real parenting solutions every single day. It's Astralia's most
1:13
Speaker 1: downloaded parenting podcast. My name's doctor Justin Coulson. I'm a
1:17
Speaker 1: dad's six kids and an author of a bunch of books,
1:19
Speaker 1: although I don't think I've written as many books as
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Speaker 1: Madonna King. Madonna King is an award winning journalist, commentator
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Speaker 1: and author whose work gives voice to Australian tweens and teens.
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Speaker 1: Her best selling parenting books include Being Fourteen Tenager Fathers
1:33
Speaker 1: and Daughters, Oh Saving Our Kids Which Blew My Mind,
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Speaker 1: and Out of the Box, which she co authored with
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Speaker 1: another friend of ours, Rebecca Sparrow a little while back.
1:43
Speaker 1: One of the things that I love about Madonna is
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Speaker 1: she doesn't position herself as an expert. Rather she positions
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Speaker 1: as well. She is a reporter, a journalist, and she
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Speaker 1: sits down and talks with experts and then creates what
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Speaker 1: we need to know from what they've shared with her.
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Speaker 1: Madonna's latest book is called screen Wise, Take Back Control
2:03
Speaker 1: of Screen Time for Toddlers to Teens. It's being built
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Speaker 1: as the first comprehensive guide to raising kids in the
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Speaker 1: age of AI, social media and digital life. And I'm
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Speaker 1: so glad that the book's been written now because we've
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Speaker 1: got the social media ban in place. AI is blooming
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Speaker 1: everywhere and it feels like we're at this really amazing
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Speaker 1: tipping point. Madonna, so glad that you're on the pod today.
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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me.
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Speaker 2: Thanks Justin.
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Speaker 1: I know that was a long intro, but you've done
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Speaker 1: so much and I just wanted to know how amazing
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Speaker 1: you've been. Let's crack straight into it. You've spent well
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Speaker 1: over a year researching deeply into this book. You actually
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Speaker 1: mostly wrote the book and then scrapped it because of
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Speaker 1: the new legislation. You've rewritten it. If I was to
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Speaker 1: just ask you what scares you the most? I don't
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Speaker 1: want to lean into fear too much, but we really
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Speaker 1: do have some problems with screens. Maybe I can rephrase
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Speaker 1: it rather than what scares you the most? If there
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Speaker 1: was just one thing that you wish parents knew that
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Speaker 1: they don't get when it comes to kids and screens,
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Speaker 1: what would it be?
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Speaker 3: That we're talking about social media, not screens, and almost
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Speaker 3: every one of those bad things that we've been warned
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Speaker 3: against on social media is available in the computer game
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Speaker 3: you might have given your kid in Ai, which they
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Speaker 3: are using on the bus on the way to school.
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Speaker 3: You know, by the time they are thirteen, there will
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Speaker 3: be almost seventy million data points on them somewhere in
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Speaker 3: the space. Teens are still on social media, often with
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Speaker 3: the help of their parent, because the parent has said,
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Speaker 3: look hold on, I'm the parent here, not the government
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Speaker 3: or others have thought, well, the government's got this under control.
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Speaker 3: And I feel as though it's almost disempowered parents a
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Speaker 3: little bit, and we need to give parents back the
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Speaker 3: power to make the decision in their home.
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Speaker 1: I have a question about that. You and I both
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Speaker 1: travel around the country, we give talks on these topics.
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Speaker 1: Of all of my topics, this is the one that
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Speaker 1: I think is my pressing. I think it's the one
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Speaker 1: that parents need to be the most concerned about, involved in,
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Speaker 1: and educated on. And yet the apathy around attendance at
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Speaker 1: my teens, tweens and screens parenting night, it just blows
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Speaker 1: me away. They're the least well attended. They're the ones
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Speaker 1: that we market the hardest, and yet they're the least
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Speaker 1: well attended. Why do you think that is?
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Speaker 3: Because I think we only pay attention when our child
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Speaker 3: is in trouble, but often we don't know they are
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Speaker 3: in trouble. They're doing this in a closed bedroom and
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Speaker 3: they're not telling us. You know, sextortion is quite rife,
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Speaker 3: and I use that word conservatively, particularly in boys' schools,
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Speaker 3: but I don't know of a case where the teen
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Speaker 3: boy came out of the bedroom and said, Mum, Dad,
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Speaker 3: I'm in struct They've gone to a teacher, a coach,
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Speaker 3: a police officer, and it's shame, it's embarrassment.
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Speaker 2: I feel so sorry.
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Speaker 3: And you know, boys so much better than me, and
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Speaker 3: thank you for writing the book you did, But I
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Speaker 3: feel as though we don't understand it, so we don't
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Speaker 3: know about it. And one thing I've tried to do
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Speaker 3: in screen Wise is we talk about chat bots, and
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Speaker 3: we talk about AI dangers in this and that in headlines,
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Speaker 3: but we're not talking about little things that are big things.
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Speaker 3: For example, the fact that I asked three hundred kids
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Speaker 3: their last use of AI. Three hundred of them. One
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Speaker 3: of them used it to make gravy. The other two
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Speaker 3: hundred and ninety nine gave me an example where it
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Speaker 3: meant they did not have to think to ask a
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Speaker 3: girl to the semi formal, to ask mom for more
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Speaker 3: pocket money, to do my homework, to cheat on an exam.
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Speaker 3: Their honesty was fantastic. But I find that really dangerous
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Speaker 3: that our children aren't actually thinking if you know what
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Speaker 3: I mean, or for example, this is going to be
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Speaker 3: my mancha for the next year.
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Speaker 2: But we're not talking.
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Speaker 3: About the role of instant gratification on our kids and
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Speaker 3: mea kopper, I think as parents, we want to book
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Speaker 3: our holiday quickly, we want to pick the check out
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Speaker 3: with no que. But what our children are seeing role
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Speaker 3: modeled is don't ever wait, and screens are doing that
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Speaker 3: to the extent that fifteen years ago someone told me
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Speaker 3: that a plot on a child show might unfold over
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Speaker 3: ten or fifteen minutes. Now that has to unfold within
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Speaker 3: seconds to keep a child's interest. In year one and two,
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Speaker 3: our teachers as seeing meltdowns because children don't get their
6:22
Speaker 3: own way immediately. What is road rage? It is impatience
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Speaker 3: while driving. You know, one school took kids out who
6:30
Speaker 3: suffered anxiety to teach them box breathing. And I'm not
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Speaker 3: an expert here, but you know in a lot in
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Speaker 3: two burst out crying because they had thought they'd failed breathing. Now,
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Speaker 3: if that is not an example of how instant gratification
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Speaker 3: has rewired all of us, and it is just stolen
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Speaker 3: joy and time and patience from our children in a
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Speaker 3: way that I find fright. We've ever seen the word
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Speaker 3: instant gratification in a headline? No, because chat thoughts are
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Speaker 3: dangerous are important, and I cover that, But I think
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Speaker 3: we need to talk about some of these subliminal messages
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Speaker 3: that may be more dangerous to your child, and we're
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Speaker 3: not Does that make.
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Speaker 1: Sense, Madonna? There are so many threads that I want
7:19
Speaker 1: to pick up on here. I was making those furiously
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Speaker 1: as you were talking to the technical term, and I'm
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Speaker 1: sure that you're aware of this is the idea of
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Speaker 1: cognitive offloading. I don't need to think about it because
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Speaker 1: the AI can think about it for me. And one
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Speaker 1: of the challenges that I see. Tell me if you
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Speaker 1: agree or disagree with my hypothesis is that because we're
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Speaker 1: so results oriented, let's talk about school. For example, got
7:41
Speaker 1: to get the job done, got to get the report in,
7:42
Speaker 1: got to write the essay, got to pass the course.
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Speaker 1: So education is less about learning in twenty twenty six
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Speaker 1: and more about results. Therefore, like if I want to
7:55
Speaker 1: go to the gym and I'm going to take a trolley,
7:59
Speaker 1: one of those forklift trollies, I can stick that under
8:02
Speaker 1: the weights machine and I can get it to lift
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Speaker 1: the weights. The weights get lifted, right, but I'm not
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Speaker 1: going to get stronger.
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Speaker 2: I love it.
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Speaker 1: I love that you were having a sip of your
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Speaker 1: coffee just as I said that, and you really spok
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Speaker 1: a coffee.
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Speaker 3: That is so true. But you know that is one
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Speaker 3: example of that. What I came across in the same
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Speaker 3: way is particularly girls, but I'm sure with boys too,
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Speaker 3: is if they get fourteen out of twenty on a
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Speaker 3: science examine year six, they decide then and there that
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Speaker 3: they will not do science in high school because they're not.
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Speaker 2: A science girl.
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Speaker 3: I spoke to girls and mums who said that they
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Speaker 3: believed they shouldn't have to learn by road the Times
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Speaker 3: table because they should just know it.
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Speaker 2: And one mother explained to her daughter how.
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Speaker 3: She put it on the back of a toilet door
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Speaker 3: when she was young, enchanted it. Her daughter thought that
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Speaker 3: was bizarre. And we're saying the same thing. You don't
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Speaker 3: if we didn't understand maths and I struggled, but I
9:01
Speaker 3: would practice it every day and improved.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. We're talking about basic resilience here, right, and seeing
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Speaker 1: a purpose.
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Speaker 3: In it rich Yeah, yeah, and that is instant gratification.
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Speaker 3: The need for immediate results is something that I think
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Speaker 3: is a While it may not have the same immediate
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Speaker 3: consequences of a sextortion attempt, it is much wider. I
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Speaker 3: reckon probably ninety percent of every codport is caught up
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Speaker 3: in it, and it's determining what they end up doing
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Speaker 3: as a career. It's that their level of anxiety, whether
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Speaker 3: they're sick on a Sunday night before they go to school,
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Speaker 3: all those things that just take the joy.
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Speaker 1: You know.
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Speaker 3: One pediatrician I took to high a door. He runs
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Speaker 3: the Boston Wellness clinic, and this kid came into him
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Speaker 3: and had heard Joni Mitchell's song about you know, castles
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Speaker 3: in the air and didn't understand what that meant. And
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Speaker 3: he said, you know how you make formations out of clouds?
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Speaker 2: The fifteen year old said, I know what you mean.
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Speaker 3: And he said, we've been so busy modeling, being busy
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Speaker 3: that just that little idea of lying when you're back
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Speaker 3: on a trampoline on the grass and making you know, a.
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Speaker 2: Palican out of a cloud.
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Speaker 3: When you teach us close out of the cloud no
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Speaker 3: longer exists. We get into a lift and we look
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Speaker 3: at our mobile phone. So our children don't learn the
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Speaker 3: importance of patients of being bored, which can actually lead
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Speaker 3: to creativity if you like. And I think we're saying
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Speaker 3: the same thing, but don't you think that's a really
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Speaker 3: dangerous societal trend that we've got to stop today.
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Speaker 1: I love the reframe. When I give my presentations, I
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Speaker 1: do tend to focus on those bigger things, and this
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Speaker 1: reframe has got me sitting here really thinking deeply about
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Speaker 1: the importance of shifting back to the basics as profound.
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Speaker 1: After break, Madonna, I want to talk about how you
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Speaker 1: wind it back. I mean, there are so many parents
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Speaker 1: who're just going, I've squeezed the toothpased out of the tube.
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Speaker 1: I can't get it back here, And what do I do?
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Speaker 1: You write?
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Speaker 2: We can get it back in.
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Speaker 1: You're you're right about that in the book. I want
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Speaker 1: to unpack that just a little bit. And I've also
11:07
Speaker 1: got a couple of other questions for you. It's coming
11:08
Speaker 1: up next to stay with us. We're back in the
11:18
Speaker 1: Happy Families podcasts where you get real pairing solutions every
11:20
Speaker 1: single day. Madonna King is my guest today. We're talking about, well,
11:24
Speaker 1: you know what we're talking about, because you've been listening
11:25
Speaker 1: to podcast so far already. We're talking about her brand
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Speaker 1: new book, which is called screen Wise Take Back Control
11:31
Speaker 1: of screen Time for Toddlers to Teens, Madonna, here's my
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Speaker 1: question for you. Setting limits from day one is one thing,
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Speaker 1: and that's the easiest way to do it. But most
11:43
Speaker 1: people who are listening to this podcast are well passed
11:45
Speaker 1: that the gate's been open, the horse is shot through it.
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Speaker 1: The thirteen year olds had a phone for two years.
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Speaker 1: The fourteen year old's been on social media well before
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Speaker 1: the band came in and is not giving it up.
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Speaker 1: You're right about resetting boundaries, and you're quite emphatic that
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Speaker 1: you can. What does that look like without declares ar
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Speaker 1: war on your child?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you can. We should never give up hope.
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Speaker 3: So I think you look at what is the issue
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Speaker 3: in your house. Let's say it's instant gratification, and then
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Speaker 3: you think of strategies.
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Speaker 2: And in the book I give tips at the end
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Speaker 2: of each chapter.
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Speaker 3: But with instant gratification, it is not actually binging on
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Speaker 3: the ted Lasso series over two nights, say all right,
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Speaker 3: every Thursday after.
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Speaker 2: School, we're going to do it.
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Speaker 3: It's teaching your child to save rather than spend the
12:28
Speaker 3: shoes for the formal we've seen the ones we want,
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Speaker 3: but let's wait till Saturday week and go and get them.
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Speaker 3: Let's pick the line at the checkout where there are
12:38
Speaker 3: three in front of us, and actually talk while we
12:42
Speaker 3: do it. So it's actually finding those little things in
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Speaker 3: life that just reset your child's brain, whether they're seventeen
12:49
Speaker 3: or seven, so that waiting is not a bad thing.
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Speaker 3: It may be playing a board game or watching a
12:58
Speaker 3: cake bake. It's little things that where the key is waiting,
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Speaker 3: And every psychologist, every scientist I talk about talk to
13:09
Speaker 3: say those things can make measurable differences to how our
13:14
Speaker 3: child then sees patients, which then leads to persistent script
13:18
Speaker 3: and confidence.
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Speaker 1: A quick personal story maybe a month and a half
13:22
Speaker 1: ago on the pod, we started talking about the importance
13:24
Speaker 1: of grandma hobbies and my youngest daughter, Emily, who is twelve.
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Speaker 1: We've essentially cut her off from screens almost completely. Now.
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Speaker 1: There was just too much bending of the rules, there
13:36
Speaker 1: was too much sneaky behavior. We just got jack of
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Speaker 1: it and we said we're just going to stop screens.
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Speaker 1: And she was pretty upset, like we were the worst
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Speaker 1: parents in the world for a couple of weeks, and
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Speaker 1: then one day she was just like, Okay, I get it, Madonna.
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Speaker 1: We started doing some sewing. Well, when I say we,
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Speaker 1: Kylie did. Yeah, yeah, I'm taking credit for it. But
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Speaker 1: Kylie started doing some sewing, and we've just seen a
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Speaker 1: different child as we've walked back the screen usage grandma
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Speaker 1: hobbies seem to have turned her into just the most
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Speaker 1: delightful child after we started to deal with some substantial challenges.
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Speaker 1: My guess is that's kind of the direction you're heading.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and going on that one of the things I've suggested.
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Speaker 3: And don't yell at me here. I know that you
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Speaker 3: never would. But bringing back the family dinner, now, I
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Speaker 3: know not everyone can do that, and the family dinner
14:27
Speaker 3: in every house is different, and often with two parents working.
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Speaker 3: But that idea of sancty kids. Look, I don't get
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Speaker 3: to talk to enough Mia Kopper one night or one.
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Speaker 2: Day a week.
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Speaker 3: At first, let's do something, and let's say it's dinner.
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Speaker 3: Someone does the theme, someone picks the recipe, someone does
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Speaker 3: the cooking. It doesn't matter if it's Japanese on the back,
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Speaker 3: veranda a sausage and mashed potato that the ten year old.
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Speaker 2: Cooks the music. But you put your phone.
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Speaker 3: Where they are, and no one makes an appointment for
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Speaker 3: that time. I think, you know, those little things have
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Speaker 3: just steer billing back what screens have taken from us.
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Speaker 3: You know, our kids, they are so clever. I interviewed
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Speaker 3: three hundred of them. One said to me, you know,
15:09
Speaker 3: why would I do this when mummy's downstairs on the
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Speaker 3: lounge on Facebook. She doesn't even hear me speak.
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Speaker 1: Our modeling, our modeling. It's the last thing I always
15:19
Speaker 1: finished with my presentation because they're seeing us do it,
15:22
Speaker 1: so why would they be any different?
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Speaker 2: Yep, monkey see monkey do.
15:26
Speaker 3: And you know there's one recipiece of research I use
15:30
Speaker 3: in the book where in two thousand playground accidents, in
15:34
Speaker 3: one third of them, the parent was on a mobile phone.
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Speaker 3: End of story. It says it all, really, doesn't it.
15:40
Speaker 3: But you know, our kids are so clever. They're gorgeous.
15:43
Speaker 3: And one fifteen year old boys said to me, you know,
15:45
Speaker 3: we brought in this social media ban on the eve
15:48
Speaker 3: of Christmas. Our school was breaking up, but no one
15:51
Speaker 3: talked to us about other things we can do. And
15:54
Speaker 3: I thought that was a very interesting public policy comment,
15:58
Speaker 3: wasn't it that you know they want our help and
16:01
Speaker 3: they're not sure how to do it. And that's why
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Speaker 3: I would say, you know, to parents, we've got to
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Speaker 3: learn what we don't know. If there's one thing I
16:10
Speaker 3: want people to remember is right now, if your child
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Speaker 3: is about thirteen, there are about seventy million things about
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Speaker 3: them online, their likes and dislikes, and they're only thirteen.
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Speaker 1: It's not like they've spent their life what will They
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Speaker 1: kind of have spent their life online but dinner. It's
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Speaker 1: not like their adults. With seventy million.
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Speaker 3: Data points, algorithms are such that it is known whether
16:33
Speaker 3: they watched a movie to the credits or they watched
16:36
Speaker 3: it to the fourteenth minute. And their friend may have
16:39
Speaker 3: been different, which is why they sent different influences on
16:42
Speaker 3: their social media accounts. They know what school bus they catch,
16:46
Speaker 3: where it stops, their name of their dog. Parents really
16:49
Speaker 3: want their children to grow up kind and curious and clever,
16:53
Speaker 3: and yet we're risking that by allowing strangers and baddies.
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Speaker 3: I think schools too. As schools continue to put pictures
17:03
Speaker 3: of children in uniform on public sites, they are risking
17:07
Speaker 3: their welfare. And I think let's not wait until this
17:12
Speaker 3: is part of our narrative to fix it it's not a
17:14
Speaker 3: government's job, it is not a school's job. It's a
17:17
Speaker 3: parent's job, and we shouldn't let anyone take it off us.
17:20
Speaker 1: Madonna, I just I love your work. I'm so grateful
17:22
Speaker 1: for what you do and the commitment that you have
17:24
Speaker 1: to it. You do such a work. You're very kind
17:27
Speaker 1: and generous. Thank you. The book is called screen Wise.
17:30
Speaker 1: It's available now, jump online or go go to a bookstore,
17:35
Speaker 1: get face to face with somebody, smile at them when
17:37
Speaker 1: you purchase the book. And both Madonna and I honestly
17:42
Speaker 1: beg you not because this is going to put an
17:44
Speaker 1: extra three dollars into Madonna's bank account because you brought
17:46
Speaker 1: a book. Because you don't make a lot of money
17:48
Speaker 1: from books. We write these books because we care about you,
17:51
Speaker 1: and we care about your kids. And the apathy around
17:55
Speaker 1: kids and screens or the hands up in the air
17:57
Speaker 1: and it's too hard around kids and screens. It has
18:00
Speaker 1: to change, and it changes when you grab a book
18:02
Speaker 1: like this and inform yourself, educate yourself, and start to
18:05
Speaker 1: talk to the kids about it. Madonna, I so appreciate
18:07
Speaker 1: your work. Thank you for joining me for this conversation today.
18:10
Speaker 1: It's a really such an important one.
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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
18:13
Speaker 1: The book will be linked in the show notes screenwise,
18:17
Speaker 1: you can google it, you can click on the show notes.
18:19
Speaker 1: It will make a difference in your life. I have
18:22
Speaker 1: absolutely no doubt about it at all. The Happy Families
18:24
Speaker 1: podcast sound and audio engineering by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.
18:28
Speaker 1: Mim Hammonds looks after I admin and additional support. If
18:31
Speaker 1: you'd like more info to make your family happier, check
18:33
Speaker 1: out Madonna's work and also have a look at Happy
18:36
Speaker 1: families dot com dot a