Latest / The Future of Luxury Podcast with Dr Daniel Langer / #6 - Thorsten Walther on Storytelling in Luxury Branding

Transcript

#6 - Thorsten Walther on Storytelling in Luxury Branding · The Future of Luxury Podcast with Dr Daniel Langer

0:00
[Music]
0:09
Welcome to the future of luxury podcast
0:12
where we explore the cutting edge of the
0:14
luxury industry with the world's leading
0:16
authority Dr. Daniel
0:19
Longer. Dr. Longer is the founder and
0:21
CEO of Ecate Brands, the world's leading
0:24
brand strategy and activation firm and
0:26
professor of luxury at Pepperdine
0:28
University.
0:29
Join us as we dive into the trends
0:31
shaping the future of luxury from
0:33
millennial and Gen Z influence to
0:35
digital
0:36
disruption with unique perspectives
0:39
shared from the world's most
0:40
knowledgeable experts in the
0:42
field. Brought to you by Ecote
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Intelligence, the global leader in
0:46
luxury strategy and brand innovation.
0:49
This podcast is your backstage path to
0:51
the world of extreme value creation and
0:54
luxury's next big moves. So without
0:57
further ado, Dr. Daniel
1:06
Longer. Thank you, Daniel, for for being
1:09
here. It's also a great pleasure for my
1:11
side. I'm right now in Singapore. It's
1:13
uh quite early here in Singapore. And uh
1:17
yeah, I'm the founder and CEO of
1:19
Inspify. We are a technology platform uh
1:23
specialized for brand client
1:25
communication or luxury business and uh
1:29
yeah helping brands elevating the the
1:32
the client experience and elevating the
1:35
way how they communicate with their
1:37
customers through technology online and
1:40
offline in the stores. Yeah. And I think
1:43
you are um being very modest with this
1:46
that introduction um because I remember
1:49
the very first time that uh we met
1:52
um and when you were showing me the the
1:56
technology that you have developed and
1:59
the immersiveness of that um and in a
2:03
sense the the way how you are in my
2:05
words really revolutionizing the the way
2:08
how brands can tell their story whether
2:12
this is on a digital platform or whether
2:14
this is in the storefront or in a in a a
2:17
physical space but then using digital
2:20
technology. But for me what was really
2:22
striking was how immersive everything
2:25
is, how tangible everything is and um
2:29
how inspiring it also feels. So um maybe
2:32
tell us a little bit about you know how
2:34
important storytelling is and how you
2:37
got to the idea to create something that
2:40
the world has never seen before. When it
2:42
comes to
2:45
visualization storytelling was always uh
2:48
the the key element of of of Inspe we
2:53
started the company um I was thinking
2:56
about let's start a different way. uh
2:58
when I I created the company, I had one
3:01
of the uh problem. I was coming to
3:03
Singapore and Singapore is all about
3:04
shopping. It's all about luxury. So, we
3:07
went through uh uh multiple malls, went
3:10
through the the the the stores and I was
3:14
one of the stores at Marina Bay Sand.
3:16
So, I I wanted a pair of black shoes,
3:19
but the sales are there uh was doing a
3:23
good job. But, uh when you see a luxury
3:25
brand, you expect more as a consumer,
3:27
right? So uh I was coming then to a
3:30
point how we can at the end help a brand
3:35
to communicate a story to uh a customer
3:40
in the store and and online right and
3:42
when we speak about luxury it's it's so
3:44
important that the heritage the quality
3:48
and all these attributes that that shape
3:50
luxury are communicated in the in the
3:52
right way right and um so it's it's
3:57
about emotion It's about engagements
3:59
right and uh when you speak about uh the
4:02
Inspify platform right it was always our
4:06
our tries and vision to deliver the
4:09
highest quality
4:11
uh when you present the products to to a
4:15
customer or when you tell the story
4:17
right and when you come to our platform
4:20
uh we are quite leading the way from an
4:24
online experience and online experience
4:27
I
4:28
mean today a lot of brands have these
4:31
websites which style which is 2D I say
4:34
always it's like Jeff B was selling
4:36
books and these websites have been very
4:38
very good when it comes to fast
4:40
transactional
4:42
uh communication right but over the
4:45
couple of years you as a brand or
4:47
business you can do much much more when
4:49
you communicate with your customers
4:51
right especially when you think about
4:53
luxury right it is product driven it's
4:56
it's It's about our product is is seen
5:00
how you can engage with a product in the
5:02
physical store. You can play around with
5:04
the product. You can touch, feel and
5:07
smell it when it comes to to to
5:08
fragrance or cosmetic side. But when you
5:12
think about the pair of shoes, a bag
5:14
fashion and you have videos which are
5:17
very static, you have the the the pack
5:20
shots which are very static. And this
5:22
was the time where we want to transform
5:25
the way how you as a brand can
5:29
communicate your new collection to to
5:31
the customer. And this is where we
5:33
really come from a way where we use the
5:37
latest technologies running on the web
5:39
web
5:40
browser and presenting products in a
5:42
very very immersive way. And what we
5:44
have also seen over the last couple of
5:46
years is for consumer it's less
5:49
important to walk through a uh a a
5:52
virtual uh uh world right uh online
5:56
still means fast right you want to have
5:59
fast access to the the the information
6:01
you want to have uh a high quality as a
6:04
consumer and this is where it's so
6:07
important to bring the product to the
6:09
client online the the the the user can
6:12
play around can have a product
6:14
experience in the same way like in the
6:16
store and from there creating the
6:19
emotional connection with the product
6:21
because in luxury my view it's about
6:23
emotion how you connect as a consumer
6:26
with a product or with the brand
6:28
emotionally makes at the end the the
6:30
decision of the product
6:33
wonderful and I think I love what you
6:34
just said about you know the the
6:37
connection or the very intimate intimate
6:39
connection between luxury and creating
6:42
emotions there. Um I think this was what
6:45
really fascinated me when we had you
6:47
know our first conversation of course in
6:49
a lot of subsequent conversations and
6:51
also some of the joint projects that
6:53
that we are doing now is how much you
6:57
can unlock those emotions and you know
7:01
and even in a in in a way that you know
7:04
of course you go go in the store and
7:07
there's the product. So we can maybe
7:08
argue traditionally it's already
7:11
sufficient because the customer is there
7:12
and the customer can see and touch,
7:15
feel, smell the product and so on uh get
7:18
get a feel for the materials. But what I
7:20
realized also through the um through
7:23
your technology, for example, I had the
7:25
the opportunity to see live in a watch
7:29
store in in Zurich um relatively
7:32
recently. And what I loved about it is
7:35
that, you know, now I can see the watch
7:38
in front of me, the real watch, but the
7:40
person in the store is able to, you
7:43
know, scan the watch and then on screen
7:46
basically the watch comes to life. I can
7:48
almost zoom into it. I can see the the
7:50
mechanics. I can see everything that is
7:52
inside. And that for me was something
7:55
that I had never experienced before. So
7:58
to me, I think also one of the emotional
8:01
touch points or the emotional points is
8:03
to create experiences that customers
8:05
never saw before. And I would be quite
8:08
curious just to understand a little bit
8:11
how you how you do that. So what are
8:14
kind of the the how do you create those
8:16
ideas to tell those stories in such an
8:19
immersive way um and in a way that has
8:22
never been done before.
8:24
No, it's it's it's a very good example,
8:26
right? And and the physical stories is a
8:28
a special place where a brand has a
8:32
touch point with with their their
8:33
customers, right? In luxury it it's very
8:37
important that you don't make a digital
8:40
show inside the store, right? Normally
8:43
when you think about when I think about
8:44
luxury and this is when I speak with my
8:46
my brand partners is a a customer comes
8:50
in you want and slow down digitize the
8:54
experience right but on the other side
8:57
you have a lot of opportunity when you
9:00
do it right and you infuse digital
9:02
elements right we are still with many
9:05
brands in the phase where you have a
9:07
digital screen there's a video playing
9:09
24/7 and at the end nobody's looking
9:12
this this the media wall or or media
9:14
thing. So for me when I I think about
9:17
physical store or the boutique, it's a
9:21
great
9:22
opportunity to bring to the product or
9:25
bring digital experiences to a customer
9:29
very seamless and discrete. This is so
9:31
important, right? So in a watch brand
9:34
for example what what you mean uh what
9:36
you what you have explained is you want
9:38
to bring your customer near to the watch
9:40
to touch it feel it and experience the
9:44
watch right because it's a it's it's a
9:46
but on the other side a watch is a very
9:48
complicated element right a lot of the
9:50
the selling arguments or unique value
9:53
propositions are are in a very detailed
9:57
and only looking on the watch is very
9:59
difficult to to see right So bringing
10:03
now the physical product which is the
10:05
star in the boutique together with uh
10:09
the site actor which is a digital
10:11
interactive element seamless integrated
10:14
can make a difference and for my view
10:16
based on two main elements. On one
10:20
side you have people in your boutique
10:22
the the walk around. Not everybody wants
10:25
to have immediately a conversation with
10:27
a sales advisor. they want to see alone.
10:29
So they can
10:31
selfdiscover the physical products in a
10:33
boutique but have like a virtual
10:35
discrete salesperson or ambassador there
10:38
that explains the product in detail and
10:41
on on the watch side or on on the the
10:43
fashion side or and different industry
10:45
can be cosmetic right uh watches quite
10:48
interesting you can explode the watch
10:50
you can explain the movements the
10:51
complication all the stuff in a very
10:53
interactive way but it's so important
10:56
that on my perspective that you not draw
10:59
the the the the visitor away from the
11:03
product because a lot of brands start uh
11:05
doing things. I have an iPad on the
11:07
side. But you as a as a as a brand or as
11:10
a marketer, you want to bring the person
11:13
near to the product and infuse these
11:16
digital elements. And this is where uh a
11:19
lot of brands have huge huge
11:20
opportunities in in this boutique to
11:23
create this emotional connection, create
11:26
this engagement on the next level. And
11:29
the technologies are today there to do
11:30
it. But it's very important. We speak
11:32
about luxury. It's slowing down. It's
11:36
creating an warm welcoming experience
11:38
there and not like a Alibaba website
11:42
right this is so quality is is so
11:45
important to have this to the customer
11:47
that he feels supported feels feels at
11:51
the end oh now I understand the thing
11:53
and I can see then again emotional
11:55
connection is so important
11:58
I like what you said about you know
12:00
supporting the the customer so in a
12:01
sense it's it's using digital to create
12:05
maybe a more human experience. Yeah. And
12:07
to bring the the human closer to the
12:11
product and you know even immerse um
12:14
into the product. Um, one thing that I
12:17
would be curious to to know is and we
12:19
discussed this many times is I assume
12:23
because storytelling is so important and
12:25
we also know from you know not only the
12:28
research we do we do on our end um you
12:30
know in the dayto-day analyzing
12:32
categories and then or category audit.
12:35
So so a lot of brands today have some
12:39
issues in their own storytelling. So
12:41
very often they have a story but as as
12:44
we often discuss the story maybe is a
12:46
little bit too vague you know it's it's
12:49
it's well meant but unfortunately
12:52
competitors also tell a relatively
12:54
similar story and when brands tell the
12:57
story about let's say like what you find
13:00
still in a in very often what
13:02
craftsmanship about quality about
13:05
materials you know their competitors
13:07
also talk about craftsmanship quality
13:08
and materials and then the other
13:10
competitor also talks about those three
13:11
things. So I can assume that in your
13:14
daytoday
13:15
um when you now have to create this
13:18
these immersive stories that when you
13:21
are in a situation where the brands that
13:24
approach you maybe in some cases don't
13:27
have a story that is yet you know fully
13:30
fully there where a lot of elements are
13:32
there but in the end the differentiation
13:35
is not there. I can imagine this is
13:37
probably something that um could be
13:40
quite limiting in terms of how to create
13:42
the the atmosphere and how to create the
13:45
then something very unique in store.
13:48
No, no, absolutely right. uh and uh what
13:51
is also very important right now mostly
13:56
uh this is the the the feeling what I
13:58
have uh
14:01
it's the luxury brands have a legacy
14:04
right over many many years right the
14:06
it's the brand equity this is why you
14:09
can emotion connect with the the
14:12
consumer right
14:14
and it only a few brands have this
14:18
storytelling over many many years,
14:21
right? Some are really focused on the
14:23
next collection, the next capsule, the
14:25
next product that come out and you jump
14:29
around a little bit in uh what you want
14:32
to communicate to to your consumer,
14:34
right? And uh there was a phase where a
14:37
lot of collaboration have been where
14:40
brand A collaborate with brand B which
14:42
is potentially very very good.
14:45
uh for for us uh when we work with
14:47
brands is is is very important. We can
14:50
only create an
14:53
experience when
14:56
we get detailed information about what
15:00
is your brand message, right? What is
15:02
your you your goal you want want to do,
15:05
right? It's luxury and you you know
15:08
better than me, right? is is
15:11
is everything is a little bit slower,
15:13
right? So, and uh less volume, more uh
15:19
quality and if you have a a clear brand
15:22
message or if you have a collection or a
15:24
new product line that you want to launch
15:27
and you tell or give the more
15:31
information behind about what is behind
15:34
the product, right? Like you say right
15:36
we have five six watch brands and it's
15:39
very difficult when you are a normal
15:41
client there which is not really
15:43
connected to watches have maybe the
15:46
buying power to buy somebody to say I
15:48
think no brand A B or C right is is and
15:52
you can only do this and this can be
15:53
watches can be fashion can can be uh
15:56
cosmetics or cars right cars is also a
15:59
special case that is how me as a
16:02
consumer I connect emotion with the
16:04
brand Right. I have a nice story with a
16:06
very very good friend. He told me why he
16:08
has chosen one of the watch brand. This
16:10
was a very simple story story but was
16:13
was at the end opening my eyes. Right.
16:16
His his little son uh was always talking
16:19
about the moon and and traveling to the
16:21
moon and there's one one of the brands
16:24
that is is very good in these kind of
16:26
things. So he
16:27
bought the watch because of the story of
16:30
his son that he loves the space moon and
16:34
all this traveling. Why? Because in a
16:37
later age he can give this watch to his
16:40
son and they have a connection right and
16:43
this is what I what I mean with emotion
16:46
connection. We many talk about emotion
16:48
connection, right? But it it's it's it's
16:51
really that's a point where a customer
16:54
really connects with the brand. I want
16:56
buy now this part of watch specific
16:59
because I want to give it to my son in
17:01
15 or 20 years because I know he loves
17:04
the moon. Right? And this is something
17:07
when you create this kind of emotional
17:10
connection with your your consumer, you
17:12
can really make the difference as a
17:14
brand. you can stand out from all the
17:16
others, right? Which which when when you
17:19
reduce the those small elements, many
17:22
many of the brands are looking the same
17:24
for for for the people, right? For us as
17:27
a as a technology platform that is
17:31
focusing and empowering brands and this
17:33
emotional delivering this emotional
17:35
message and connecting emotionally with
17:38
the customer is so important
17:41
to get enough information and also
17:44
support from a brand where we can then
17:47
deliver against this kind of of of
17:50
vision of the brand of this messaging of
17:52
the brand. Right? We're taking a quick
17:54
break from this podcast with a short
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message of our sponsor Echite
17:58
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let's get back to our podcast. But
18:57
before we go back, I also want to
18:59
encourage you to share the podcast with
19:02
your colleagues or with everyone that is
19:05
interested in luxury. Thank you so much
19:07
and let's enjoy the rest of the show. I
19:11
think in in my opinion, you're
19:12
absolutely right here. This is probably
19:14
the most important and it's always
19:16
striking how many brands today are still
19:20
not telling their story in a very
19:23
consistent way. And there's a lot of
19:25
there's a lot of somehow it makes sense
19:27
because if we go just a few years back
19:31
we say maybe three and four five years
19:32
back we were in a time that was first
19:35
much less digital. um we didn't have yet
19:38
such an importance of social media
19:40
platforms between the customer and the
19:43
client. Um and we also had much less
19:45
competition in many categories. So and
19:48
then you know you go back another five
19:50
years and another five years and all of
19:52
all of the sudden you see markets that
19:54
have been far not yet so developed as
19:57
they are today. And so very often, you
20:00
know, when we when we see that um brands
20:03
have deficits in brand storytelling,
20:04
it's not that they have missed now
20:07
something dramatic. It's just that their
20:09
brand stories were often built in a time
20:12
where it was sufficient to say like what
20:16
I said before, my quality is better than
20:18
yours because it was tangible. In
20:20
today's world, you can hardly see it
20:23
from a client perspective which brand
20:25
actually is really better than others.
20:27
the quality level in in so many ways has
20:31
um come closer and closer to each other
20:33
and frankly I always like to say in
20:35
luxury in today's world everyone expects
20:38
the best from every brand you know I
20:40
don't I don't care when I buy brand ABC
20:43
and whether this is a car a bag um a new
20:46
pair of shoes or a seat um if I decide
20:50
to go to a specific brand and this brand
20:53
is now let's say a premium or luxury
20:55
brand I simply expect exceptional
20:58
quality. So I always like to say that
21:00
the the quality which was a typical
21:03
marker in the past to develop the brand
21:05
story is simply a given. And I had a I
21:08
had a conversation uh this morning for
21:10
example with um with a brand that I
21:12
found quite fascinating where we talked
21:14
about the brand story and um and they
21:18
were saying that internally the yes
21:21
there is a story but the story also is
21:24
perceived differently by different
21:26
people. And so now for example in um in
21:29
marketing maybe there's one perception
21:31
of the story and then in sales there's
21:33
another perception of the story and in
21:35
customer service is another one. And so
21:37
now if we now think about um about now
21:41
multiplying this because now you you are
21:44
not only speaking internally about the
21:46
sales teams but now you speak about a
21:48
boutique and let's say one boutique may
21:50
be in Tokyo another boutique in
21:51
Singapore and there's another boutique
21:53
in Hong Kong maybe one in Dubai one in
21:56
Paris one in New York City one in Los
21:58
Angeles uh one in S Paulo so now you
22:01
have basically first of all we all know
22:05
in every place in the world people
22:07
behave a little bit differently. Norms
22:09
are a bit differently. You know, maybe
22:11
some places people tend to be a little
22:14
bit maybe more muted with their emotions
22:15
and other places they're a little bit
22:17
more outgoing with this. And and so now
22:20
we have within an organization at the
22:22
top already a kind of diverse view on
22:26
what the story actually is. And now you
22:28
take this on at scale into different
22:31
stores. And then we can just imagine
22:34
that almost each person who now transmit
22:37
the story and puts their own angle into
22:39
this that something that could be very
22:42
very clear on PowerPoint presentation
22:45
suddenly starts to get completely blurry
22:47
in the eyes of the customer when the
22:49
customer comes in. And to me, I think
22:52
what you're doing with with Instifi is
22:56
giving brands also an opportunity to be
23:00
more consistent in the way how they tell
23:03
the story to the to their clients.
23:05
Because now what you can do is you can
23:07
create almost like a framework that then
23:10
each sales representative each place
23:13
wherever they are in the world they can
23:14
replicate that and without as you said
23:17
without maybe distracting um during the
23:19
sales process without distracting from
23:21
from the product which I think was a
23:23
very important a very important part but
23:25
this also brings me again back to um
23:29
what we said a little bit earlier to how
23:31
important it is already on the level of
23:35
the brand that talks to you to have full
23:38
clarity on the brand story because if
23:40
there's any ambiguity and I think we we
23:42
discussed a few examples in one of our
23:45
recent calls you may have let's say one
23:48
collection in one season that is about
23:52
let's say theme A and then next season
23:55
you have a collection about this theme B
23:57
and next season again a completely
23:59
different collection and maybe even a
24:01
different story of the collection and
24:04
Then I could imagine that because you're
24:07
what you're building is so immersive
24:10
that if there is no clear narrative that
24:13
the brands are providing um each time
24:16
they go to market that actually from a
24:18
customer side the more immersive now the
24:21
the experience becomes the more engaging
24:24
it becomes the more confusion can also
24:27
be created in terms of the story because
24:29
collection A does not need to seem to
24:32
have any connection into collection B
24:34
and C and D suddenly things can get very
24:37
blurry and I would be quite curious to
24:39
to get your opinion on on that or maybe
24:42
your observations on that. No, you you
24:45
mentioned many many very important uh
24:47
points, right?
24:49
And the first one where you say we have
24:54
the big complexity of brands is they
24:56
operate on a global scale, right? Mhm.
24:58
And you have a a Singapore market which
25:01
is potentially different than in China
25:03
which in in North America and from a
25:07
from a brand perspective uh big
25:09
challenge what we see is you do all this
25:12
uh brand brand strategizing and thinking
25:14
about your brand and your new
25:16
collection. how you get it
25:19
now
25:20
hyperpersonalized to the end consumer,
25:22
right? This is is one of the thing and
25:25
we know all a very very important
25:27
channel is the direct channel between a
25:29
sales advisor and his black book with
25:32
all the customers where they have a is
25:35
it's like a relationship. So on a on a
25:38
global scale, you you have the the the
25:40
new capsule, you have the new
25:42
collection, you you know what you want
25:44
to
25:44
communicate and this all this
25:48
work is quite easy on a social media
25:52
side, right? You can can communicate
25:54
because you not have the middleman
25:55
between. But on the on the shop floor,
25:58
it's it's so important how you get this
26:00
message through the shop floor to the
26:02
customer, right? And uh there there are
26:05
good sales people there there are normal
26:07
sales people and there are not so good
26:09
sales people but from a lot
26:11
communication side you want to always
26:13
have a clear message message a high
26:16
quality message to your customer we
26:19
still see that sales advisor then it
26:21
comes a new bag or a new pair of shoe
26:24
making a WhatsApp picture or message and
26:26
send it to the customer right it's not a
26:29
a luxury uh experience right so where We
26:33
we from from Inspify VBC it's it's about
26:36
hyper personalization. It's about how we
26:39
can get a a a marketing in HQ or in the
26:44
regional side in a way to to activate
26:47
the salespersons and to reduce the load
26:50
because many many sales people in the in
26:52
the sales person or sales advisor in the
26:54
store have a lot to do, right? So the
26:57
communication with the client is
27:00
potentially the less important one for
27:02
for the sales person because they they
27:03
must check the stock and and all these
27:05
other task, right? So we try to help out
27:08
the sales advisors to have access to
27:11
high quality content
27:13
hyperpersonalized and on the other side
27:16
the marketing teams to activate them
27:19
with a very easy task in a in a campaign
27:22
based creating task for them where they
27:24
only they have to click a button and
27:26
then they communicate highly
27:27
personalized with a customer which
27:30
creates again this this story and and
27:32
the nice thing is you can localize it.
27:35
You can personalize it and it goes in a
27:38
way where you can have the purchase
27:40
history, you can have the boutique
27:42
visits, you can have all the information
27:44
and I don't say this data is is to
27:48
control or or check a customer or spy on
27:51
a customer. No, it's more about hey I
27:55
know you as a customer. I can
27:57
communicate with you as a customer way
27:59
that is interesting for you and I don't
28:01
bother you with with introduction to new
28:04
products that are not interesting for me
28:06
because I believe the communication
28:09
between a brand and a customer is a very
28:12
important uh uh connection. You should
28:14
not spam it right if you communicate
28:17
should be in a in a high quality which
28:20
uh creates appetite to know more because
28:22
in the current world we all are over we
28:25
have too much information we get too
28:26
many emails the customers are not
28:28
anymore attracting to content or to to
28:30
to newsletter and this is a point where
28:34
the only way to get a brand message on
28:38
my perspective down to the shop floor to
28:41
the customer is is really with uh
28:44
helping them with highly personalized
28:46
controlled messaging that goes to the
28:49
customer and that attracts the customer
28:51
like hooks or converts
28:53
right super fascinating one thing that
28:57
I'm I was just reflecting while I was
28:58
listening to to your answer is since we
29:01
talk about technologies you know it was
29:03
not so long ago and because it also kind
29:05
of shows how how fast things are
29:08
changing so not so long ago and I would
29:10
say probably the peak if I'm not if I'm
29:14
not mistaken was probably like 2021
29:17
probably even
29:19
2022 everyone on the planet was talking
29:22
about the metaverse every brand wanted
29:25
to be in the
29:26
metaverse and I think like I don't even
29:28
know how many hundreds thousands of
29:31
projects that were hyped and then two or
29:36
three or four months later no one talks
29:38
about them anymore and I would be
29:41
curious because I'm pretty Sure. Also
29:43
when when you built Instifi and also I'm
29:45
sure a lot of your clients probably
29:48
approach you also on potentially
29:50
projects in the metaverse is how do you
29:53
see the current state of the meta?
29:55
necessarily in maybe five or 10 years we
29:58
may have much better technologies that
30:01
make things much more seamless but with
30:03
the current technology platforms that
30:06
are that are there you know whether this
30:08
is the Apple headset the vision pro
30:10
headset whether this is the Oculus one
30:12
or um or others and where where how
30:16
important do you think today it is for
30:18
brands to think about metaverse today
30:21
versus maybe being more in a sense
30:24
pragmatic
30:25
with technologies that are maybe more
30:28
widespread available. But as you said,
30:31
if you think about static website and
30:33
pictures, maybe think more about the
30:35
content and the delivery of existing
30:38
ones rather than to go into into the
30:40
metaverse. I I would be very curious
30:42
about your your feeling on this. No,
30:46
it's it's it's a it's a very good
30:47
question. I think the metaverse was a
30:50
middle step between where we are going,
30:52
right? many brands uh like you say uh
30:55
was jumping on this this this train and
30:58
trying out and it's good that the the
30:59
brands are trying new stuff right but
31:02
what what you also can see is that
31:05
uh for for brand you have your
31:07
objectives by the way when you do
31:09
something and when you put investment uh
31:11
on on the table and what you can see
31:15
is
31:16
that the the consumer do not want to
31:20
walk through a meta road strike
31:23
This is something sure you have your
31:24
your Call of Duty, you have your
31:26
Fortnite, but the the users go there to
31:29
play games, right? And you can infuse
31:31
your brand in it, which is very very
31:33
powerful, right? But building your
31:35
metaverse and thinking people go there
31:38
and shopping there is is is very
31:40
challenging. But the learning out of
31:43
this and this is where I think the the
31:45
metaverse was a a step a middle step
31:48
there is the immersive web, right? It's
31:52
it's about cutting out all the things
31:56
because when I see the the initial
31:57
metaverse and walking through worlds and
31:59
so on and you do buy you why you like a
32:03
mall right because you have older brands
32:06
step by step very near you can go in and
32:08
have a product experience but online you
32:10
have a different methodology a different
32:13
need in in online you don't have these
32:15
physical boundaries so you must more the
32:18
focus is still on on the experience and
32:21
the
32:22
And this is where I mean the the current
32:24
trend
32:25
goes you have your website 2D very fast
32:29
as mentioned but then when it comes to
32:31
the product experience right then you
32:35
bring it in an immersive space immersive
32:37
web where you can get the contextual the
32:40
product in a context right this is where
32:43
again the storytelling is much much
32:45
stronger than than aesthetic video also
32:48
and I think where where we go in is
32:51
immersive product cataloges, right?
32:53
Immersive uh product experience because
32:57
we we should
32:59
really think about the product is the
33:02
star, right? It's not the
33:06
environment because the the luxury
33:08
brands are at the end product and
33:10
stories, right? And 80 90% it's about
33:14
the product, right? And this is where
33:16
you I think we have learned and we did a
33:19
many many project in our platform is at
33:22
the end leading the way how you can
33:24
present your products to to customers in
33:27
in in the digital space is we strongly
33:30
believe and this is what we suggest the
33:32
brands is you have to cut away all the
33:35
things where people throw away. We can
33:37
see in the data right that the people
33:39
have an reduced attention span online
33:42
and don't waste this for
33:46
uh activities in the immersive space
33:49
that are not relevant for the
33:50
storytelling or for the product. And
33:52
this is where I say the metaverse was a
33:55
very good thing. You have the the Apple
33:59
uh uh VR glasses and so on which I think
34:02
it's it's still far far away. Why?
34:05
because not many people have these
34:07
devices, right? And
34:10
uh it takes on so the the the the
34:13
current phase is really having your uh
34:16
digital uh website having uh your fast
34:20
transactional thing and then when you
34:22
want to dive into the product itself you
34:25
give this uh immersive experience or
34:28
when you communicate with your customers
34:30
you give them immersive elements where
34:32
they can interact with the products and
34:35
know more about the specification and
34:37
put the products in a context that it
34:39
attracts.
34:42
I love what you say and I think this
34:43
that shows again how important it is
34:46
especially when new technologies emerge
34:48
and you know I also like what you said
34:50
that it's good to be to be open to
34:52
experimenting where you don't want to be
34:54
left behind when something new happens
34:57
and I also think that it's super
34:58
critical to be extremely strategic in in
35:01
everything and you know I I remember you
35:04
know in in light of the of of the
35:06
metaverse hype there was a second hype
35:08
around NFTts
35:10
And there was a I think a time when
35:12
there was practically no brand not
35:14
launching NFTTS and everyone basically
35:17
jumped on that that bandwagon. And you
35:20
know I did a quite interesting um
35:23
analysis at that time. I was teaching um
35:25
my my luxury program when the NFT hype
35:28
really took off and a few of my students
35:32
asked me about you know how do you price
35:34
a metaverse and you know how do you how
35:37
do you do you price a digital product?
35:40
Can digital product be priced in the
35:41
same way as physical product and so on.
35:44
And you know my initial reflex was to
35:46
say
35:47
fundamentally as long as there is you
35:50
can build a similar community in a
35:51
digital world than in the physical world
35:53
the the um you know principles of
35:56
pricing should be the same. But then you
35:59
know we made an experiment experiment
36:01
and and started to really um you know
36:04
look very very closely into the NFTs how
36:07
they for example how they are traded and
36:09
and found okay most of them are traded
36:11
in an option platform and so suddenly
36:15
you have different rules than buying a
36:18
normal product because an option has
36:20
very significant psychological effects
36:23
that you know have to do and would go
36:25
not too we won't to go into the the the
36:27
detail
36:28
But they have to do a lot with what we
36:31
call virtual ownership. You know, you
36:32
think you have something because you're
36:34
the highest bidder. So virtually you own
36:36
the product and someone else bids for
36:38
it. Now they own the product and so on
36:40
and so forth. And as humans, we don't
36:43
like losses. So we start to want to
36:45
overpay to get something back that we
36:48
virtually already owned. Although you
36:49
the options still running, so we didn't
36:51
really own it. And then you put the
36:53
whole thing on steroids by now adding
36:57
crypto to the mix and um making you know
37:00
the as many of the NFT platforms require
37:04
um then pricing everything in crypto and
37:07
because we don't pay our dayto-days in
37:09
crypto we don't have really um within a
37:13
cryptocurrency at least most people
37:15
don't have um a reference price bond for
37:18
things. So now you put you put an entire
37:21
category on a psychological platform
37:24
that in
37:25
principle entices us to pay a little bit
37:28
more than we would normally do. And then
37:31
you take all the guardrails away and uh
37:34
and put it and and make people pay in
37:36
crypto and suddenly it's clear that they
37:40
had to be a burst of the bubble. The
37:42
moment I understood the the pricing of
37:45
NFTTS and the psychological effect of
37:47
that, it was going clear that you know
37:50
this astronomical price points that we
37:52
saw the the the things that that came on
37:55
the market would not be sustainable in
37:57
terms of value and it comes back why are
38:00
they not sustainable because most of
38:02
them had no story because people were
38:04
just you know launching another ape here
38:07
another thing there um you know the car
38:10
companies sold NFTs of their cars,
38:12
pictures of the but everything started
38:15
to get more of the same and if something
38:17
is more of the same then it's not luxury
38:19
anymore then it's not special anymore
38:21
then there's no no value because the
38:23
story isn't and it's sometimes
38:25
interesting and therefore I really like
38:27
what you said about on one hand
38:28
experimentation but we also have to be
38:31
so incredibly strategic to to think
38:34
things through and not to just do things
38:36
because the competitors also are doing
38:37
it and that someone else also is doing
38:40
it but to really think what make sense
38:42
for a brand and also to always ask is
38:45
there a story and is the story that we
38:48
are telling is it differentiating does
38:50
it create value is it enticing does it
38:53
create desiraability so I just thought
38:56
this is interesting that you know as you
38:58
said even maybe in this why also wanted
39:01
to elaborate a little bit on on the
39:03
metaverse
39:05
um because you know again two years ago
39:07
three years ago there was no one that
39:09
didn't talk about it no one didn't do a
39:11
project and still they have killed
39:13
projects but um most of them kind of
39:16
fell fell flat and now in this context
39:19
now right now say the hype now move from
39:22
the metaverse into artificial
39:24
intelligence at at the moment not only
39:26
in luxury but in practically every every
39:28
product category and um I know that also
39:33
in insty you're using a lot of AI
39:36
somewhere within within the the
39:38
experience so I would be curious how you
39:40
see maybe AI, the role of AI now for
39:44
luxury brands today, how would you also
39:46
recommend luxury brands to think about
39:49
AI and um how do you think AI is going
39:54
to
39:56
be critical also for the success of
39:58
luxury brands maybe not only let's say
40:01
today as we speak but in 5 years and 10
40:04
years so where do you see AI today and
40:06
tomorrow for luxury brands
40:11
For for us as a technology platform, we
40:13
we see it on the two different aspects.
40:16
On one side, how we build our platform,
40:18
right? And in this process, we use AI
40:22
very heavily and I restructure the whole
40:25
organization that we are AI driven and
40:28
AI first, right? Because you increase
40:30
the quality, you increase time to
40:32
market, which is super super important,
40:35
right? When we speak about our brand
40:37
partners, right? And what we uh uh want
40:41
to give it I think it breaks down in in
40:44
our case to hyperpersonalization at
40:46
scale
40:48
right it's personalization is so so
40:52
difficult because you have on my
40:54
perspective in our environment two
40:56
aspects is is the the story and it's the
41:00
visuals right and when we look back a
41:03
couple of years uh or maybe one or two
41:06
years only when when the first release
41:07
of AI came out. You have copy writers,
41:11
you have uh uh marketing teams that
41:14
think about the texting which was okay
41:17
from a broadcasting perspective, right?
41:20
So you you you make one message that
41:22
fits for for most of the people, but I
41:25
think AI will have the the biggest
41:27
impact in in personalization. It's in
41:29
how you communicate, how you uh and you
41:32
you said it before very well, right? I
41:35
think the biggest complexity between the
41:39
years 2020 and now is the death right is
41:44
means as a brand it was 30 years ago was
41:47
enough if you say quality right but now
41:50
everybody has access to all information
41:53
instantly. So this message is not strong
41:56
enough anymore because you can now look
41:58
under the hood right what is what is
42:00
really behind the brand right so it's
42:02
very important for a brand to to go
42:04
deeper in the storytelling and deeper on
42:07
on on my perspective is more
42:10
personalized more tailored because
42:13
consumer A understands the message
42:15
different than B maybe because of of the
42:17
different markets countries social and
42:20
interest and it's so important to get
42:24
Intention is personalization. That's
42:26
what I mean is how the brand speaks to
42:28
me, how my salesperson speaks to me, how
42:31
the new collection is introduced to me
42:33
from a texting and visual side. And
42:37
there's a a very very great example
42:40
online from Carana. It's a it's a car
42:43
deal in the US where they have created
42:46
highly personalized videos to all their
42:49
customers. And I I think this is the the
42:52
way where we will develop and AI enables
42:55
us to do this to create content that is
42:58
personalized to one person. This is at
43:02
the end of goal, right? So you have your
43:04
segment. This was a nice conversation
43:05
what we had some time back about
43:07
segmentation, right? Yeah. Uh you have
43:10
years back you have segmentation with
43:12
customer groups with very very big and
43:15
it goes at the end in a way where you go
43:17
on a highly personalized one person
43:19
segmentation you communicate
43:21
personalized and uh you you you are able
43:25
to to bring your brand message there
43:28
really enough and you know as as you
43:30
know segmentation and is is one of my my
43:34
passions in a way but and and I think
43:36
that a lot of brands and and a lot of
43:39
maybe also managers in today's
43:42
world kind seegmentation maybe a little
43:45
bit in a too limiting way because also
43:48
if I if you look at marketing research
43:51
in market research um marketing you know
43:55
the the kind of history of the the
43:56
marketing education you know
43:58
segmentation was always a little bit
44:00
like the holy grail and everyone was
44:02
told okay you have to think about who
44:04
are your clients which client which
44:06
group are you targeting
44:09
And you know I remember I think this was
44:11
one of the things that we shared in that
44:12
conversation and I remember talking to
44:14
to my students and telling them you know
44:17
ideally you want to get to a segment of
44:21
one because every you know every
44:23
segmentation tool in the world
44:26
fundamentally was only a kind of
44:29
um bandaid so to speak because we didn't
44:32
have technologies that were allowing to
44:35
understand the customers.
44:37
in on oneonone base and I would argue
44:40
that probably the companies that are
44:42
best in that and maybe the most advanced
44:45
fundamentally are the social media
44:47
companies because every social media
44:49
feed looks different. know your your
44:51
feed without knowing your feed, but I'm
44:53
100% sure your feed looks completely
44:54
different than my feet and the feet of
44:58
everyone listening to this podcast today
45:00
will look completely different to our
45:02
feeds. And so we have already certain
45:05
industries so to speak that are already
45:08
at a point where they have a
45:10
segmentation of one where they can go to
45:12
one person um can create um a kind of
45:17
persona of the person that let's call it
45:19
hypothesis about you know their their um
45:22
dreams their um their aspirations
45:26
um and then they can also start
45:28
predicting things you know they can see
45:30
behavioral changes and then compare have
45:33
behavioral changes even at a very slight
45:35
level that maybe even the person does
45:37
not realize the algorithm can already
45:40
realize and say wait a minute this
45:42
person suddenly looks at this okay maybe
45:46
six week six months down the road they
45:49
could be they could be interested in
45:50
that product and then s that brand and
45:53
six months down the road they get an
45:54
advertising. So and this is in my point
45:57
of view the level of of segmentation and
46:00
personalization that companies should go
46:03
into and if we think about luxury as
46:06
fundamentally creating extreme value
46:09
this means putting the customer at the
46:11
center individually the human and being
46:15
empathetic to each person and trying to
46:18
understand really you know not only what
46:21
can we sell them but what do people
46:23
really dream about what would
46:25
what would the ideal scenario look like?
46:28
This is for me where we have to go and
46:30
where also in the sales process when we
46:31
do sales training. Um I always emphasize
46:35
that you have to get into the mindset of
46:38
the individual and I could imagine that
46:40
you know you can do this by questions
46:42
when you are in one-on-one setting. Um
46:45
you can do this in uh you know with with
46:48
a couple of techniques but also you can
46:50
do that with the help of technologies in
46:52
in looking for example how people react
46:55
to something and and maybe you know um
46:58
facial recognition and so on starting to
47:00
interpret certain things and and seeing
47:03
how you know and what is the emotional
47:07
response that maybe sometimes we cannot
47:09
just measure by looking into the faces
47:11
and the eyes because very many signals
47:14
can be very subtle but can be
47:16
interpreted in a better way through
47:18
technology. So yeah, it's it's
47:20
fascinating. Where where do you think AI
47:22
is going to go in the next let's say 5
47:25
to 10 years? What is what you you
47:27
already mentioned you know the role in
47:30
this hyper personalization
47:32
um you also mentioned in maybe in in
47:35
optimization and we talk about your
47:36
workflows and make getting faster
47:39
understanding things better. What do you
47:41
think will be from from your perspective
47:43
today key applications for in the luxury
47:47
industry apart from what we already
47:49
discussed? Yes. Is uh I think marketing
47:52
is is very strong.
47:55
Uh sales training
47:58
uh is is a a very very good area where
48:02
you has a huge potential to uh train
48:06
sales people. Um and when I I think
48:09
about combining
48:12
uh you call it metaverse
48:15
immersive when we think about sales
48:18
sales training right and you are more
48:21
deeper than me and right the sales
48:23
advice are a very crucial element in
48:25
luxury today and in 10 and 20 years
48:28
right uh I remember some years back
48:30
everybody was saying oh the boutiques
48:32
will go away right things getting online
48:36
I don't believe this I think uh the
48:38
boutique is still the the key element.
48:40
So the salesperson is is uh is the the
48:43
the person which connects the brand with
48:46
the the visitor in the boutique. He must
48:48
be or she must be very well trained uh
48:52
understand the messaging, understand the
48:55
the how to communicate, what to
48:57
communicate. The complexity here is that
49:00
products getting more and more faster
49:02
launch in the fashion industry since
49:04
four times a year or more. and you you
49:06
have to keep up. So how you uh keep up
49:09
with all this knowledge with all this
49:11
messaging. So sales training is
49:13
important and AI can help. And when I
49:15
think about sales training, I
49:17
envisioned like a sandbox where
49:20
potentially you as a brand, you you fill
49:22
the AI and Shen if with all the the
49:25
vision, the vision, the the the
49:26
communication, the strategy, the
49:28
storytelling and a sales person can can
49:31
really by self and without be
49:35
embarrassed of doing something wrong
49:38
train themselves. I think of it if it
49:41
comes about AI in the
49:44
future. I think training of sales person
49:46
is very important. I think that more and
49:48
more we will go when you go on a website
49:51
instead of having only a chat that
49:53
interacts with somebody you go in a way
49:56
where you have an meet a human
49:59
that understands the story line that is
50:02
really uh able to talk with a customer
50:06
like a a human. And again comes about
50:09
scale. AI is for me all about scale. Be
50:13
able to have a human touch in a meta
50:16
human uh on a scale that where brands
50:20
safely and securely can activate and put
50:24
between the brand and the customer
50:26
because there are not a lot of room
50:28
failure right because as a brand if you
50:31
put AI between and it's it's where we
50:34
are right now which is one of a big
50:36
problem. If you generate images, if you
50:38
generate would generate
50:40
videos, it can get very very wrong with
50:43
an AI engine today, right? Also from a
50:45
messaging. So this is why you have
50:46
potentially people between right but in
50:48
5 to 10
50:50
years you can have your AI model that
50:53
understands the story that understands
50:55
all the values where you can really
50:56
safely uh put between the customer
51:00
without a human oversight right and then
51:02
you can at the end start to scale where
51:05
online
51:07
experience has at the end made an avatar
51:10
not an avatar like like you and me we
51:12
talk now right this is you don't see a
51:14
difference anymore more and this is
51:16
where I think the way will go right and
51:18
then you have from from from a
51:20
storytelling and communication
51:22
perspective so much power because the AI
51:25
engine is doing exactly what you want in
51:27
the way you want it and and again
51:30
personalized it's not only the language
51:32
it's it's really the storytelling
51:34
uh and the dialect how you talk with
51:37
them so that my customer that that talks
51:39
with this engine feels his warmth feels
51:42
understood and feels welcome
51:45
Wonderful. I have one last question um
51:48
uh to and this I I like to always close
51:52
with with that question is where do you
51:54
see the future of luxury? So what what
51:57
is what are the one or two aspects if
52:00
you had to like in one or two or three
52:01
sentence kind of summarize where the
52:03
future of luxury is going for me? What
52:05
will be key aspects key elements? what
52:08
will be the the the important things for
52:10
brands to to um to look in and to take
52:14
care of? I think one of the the key
52:17
element
52:20
is and I'm in this business now many
52:22
many years right is speed right uh
52:25
luxury I think luxury has to evolve to
52:28
be faster in adapting right when you
52:31
come from a startup world right and one
52:32
of the famous uh thing from from basos
52:36
and all these guys that are very
52:37
successful fail fast right the
52:41
superboard I think you you have to
52:44
balance between fail fast and don't lose
52:47
your brand ability. This is the the big
52:48
problem but the adoption speed and you
52:52
say something very very nice before and
52:54
this is I see as a problem right many
52:57
brands brand a do is doing it so we do
53:00
the same right with a little different
53:02
flavor right I think the two things
53:05
where I I would suggest is being more
53:10
open for change is specific on the
53:12
digital side right and the second thing
53:15
is
53:17
don't
53:18
replicate always the things others are
53:21
doing. Right? So this and uh the third
53:24
thing is this is maybe my my German DNA
53:28
is be all honest to the data you see
53:33
right and make the decision on on on
53:36
what data you see right and not because
53:38
everybody else is doing it it must be
53:40
good right so uh I think these are the
53:43
three point the key point is be faster
53:46
in in in in transitioning into the new
53:49
world right because if you not do it you
53:50
you will be behind, right? And
53:52
competition will will pass you and and
53:55
will will take your market share, right?
53:58
Yeah.
53:59
Wonderful to thank you so much for being
54:02
with us today. This was um super
54:04
enlightening. It's unbelievable what you
54:06
guys are doing at um Instify and it's
54:09
really an honor to you know work very
54:12
closely with you and you know working
54:14
together on projects where on one hand
54:16
we are working on the optimizing the
54:18
story and on your end to bring the story
54:21
mount to life in a very immersive way.
54:23
Um it's always a pleasure and I'm 100%
54:27
certain that this is an episode that was
54:29
very inviting also for many of the of
54:32
the viewers and of the listeners. So,
54:34
thank you so much for joining us today.
54:37
Thank you so much, Daniel. It was was
54:38
great speaking with you like always and
54:41
enjoy the time and uh yeah, looking
54:43
forward to to get the more project up
54:46
and running together with you. Thanks,
54:47
Daniel. Thank you.
54:52
[Music]