Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Part 1 - Holly Pivec & Doug Geivett: Bethel Church, NAR, and ‘Reckless Christianity’

Transcript

Part 1 - Holly Pivec & Doug Geivett: Bethel Church, NAR, and ‘Reckless Christianity’ · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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defending biblical Christianity.
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No topic off limits.
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And now, here's your host, David Fiorazo.
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Well, hello, friends, God bless you.
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Thanks for tuning in and for sharing the podcast.
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We're going to talk about a very important brand new book today.
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It's called Reckless Christianity.
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Introduce the guests.
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We have two guests, two authors, Holly and Doug are both with us.
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But I want to thank some donors that have been getting a hold of us lately.
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And some that have sent in donations.
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And some people have chosen to give a monthly gift to World View Matter.
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So thank you, thank you, thank you.
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Our latest is Laura from Deepir, Wisconsin, new monthly donor.
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Thank you.
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And instead of rattling off a bunch of names again, because I've done this before,
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I'm going to, we're keeping tabs of all the states we're hearing from.
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All right, listeners or viewers in different states.
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Of course, Wisconsin, Nevada, Maryland, Ohio, California, Wyoming, Washington, New York,
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Georgia, Nebraska, South Dakota, Minnesota, South Carolina, Virginia, Iowa.
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And, you know, Holly, I'm not seeing Alaska anywhere, but New Mexico, New Mexico.
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All right, anyway, giving you a hard time.
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Well, I want to introduce to you the authors of the book, reckless Christianity.
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We've had Holly on before.
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Holly Pivic is an independent researcher of new religious movements.
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And she blogs at her website, hollypivicpivic.com.
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We also have Doug Geivett with us.
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He is a professor of philosophy at Biola University in Southern California
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and Talbot School of Theology, both located in, or actually that's in La Marada.
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Biola is in La Marada as well.
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The book is reckless Christianity subtitle.
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The destructive new teachings and practices of Bill Johnson, Bethel Church, and the global
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movement of apostles and prophets, Holly and Doug.
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Welcome both of you to World View Matters.
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Thanks, David.
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Thanks, David.
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Thanks for being here.
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Thank you.
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Now, we've talked to Holly before and guys, if you're seeing them, you got to understand
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that we're in Wisconsin, Holly's in Alaska, Doug's in California.
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So I love technology.
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This is one of the good things I like about what we can do today and this very important
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topic you guys.
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So let's start with the title.
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I've got a lot of questions.
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See the book markers here on the book that I've got, Reckless Christianity.
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So the title, I know there's a song called Reckless Love, which I just don't like the lyrics
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to that.
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God is not reckless.
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But Holly, let's start with you.
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How did you come up with the title, Reckless Christianity?
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Right.
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So there is this song, this Bethel music song, Reckless Love.
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And some people would say, well, that's just an unfortunate word choice.
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Maybe a reckless wasn't the right word, but really, people shouldn't get to hung up
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on that.
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But the thing is Bethel Church in Reading, California, which we wrote our book Reckless
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Christianity about that church.
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They're the most influential church in the New Apostolic Reformation Movement today.
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And the leader of that church, the head of possible, Bill Johnson actually advocates
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a reckless approach to Christianity.
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They see recklessness as virtue, as a good thing.
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They would say that what they're advocating at Bethel Church in Reading is spiritual experimentation.
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Bill Johnson wants his church to experiment and figure out what will work to help people
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learn to develop miraculous powers.
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So that they can prophesy, heal the sick, raise the dead, and ultimately with the goal of
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raising up the churches in time, miracle working army to bring God's kingdom to earth.
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And so they view recklessness as a virtue because they would say, you know, we need to do
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whatever it takes in order to learn to work miracles.
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And what we show in our book is they're actually advocating a lot of new age practices.
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Occultic practices in the name of Christianity, and actually introducing very hazardous and
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dangerous practices and teaches into the church that have harmed a lot of people, have divided
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and split many churches and just left a wake of destruction.
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So Doug, we'll go over to you next and you can add to what Holly just shared about the
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title, but you guys have tag teamed on some wonderful, very helpful books to the body
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of Christ, a new apostolic reformation, God's super apostles, your previous book, counterfeit
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kingdom.
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You talked about the dangers of new revelation, new prophets, new age practices, but reckless
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Christianity, Doug, why this book?
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Why now?
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Yeah.
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Well, Holly did a great job of explaining the title.
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It turns out that it is a reckless form of Christianity in much the way that they describe.
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So we got the title from the Bethel Church ministry and its own way of describing itself,
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but readers, I think, will maybe draw a different conclusion about whether it's virtuous or
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not to be reckless in the way that they they flaunt really in their practices and their
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teachings.
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Now this book is our fourth book, as you noted, and a year ago we released a book called
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Counterfeit Kingdom.
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They're a great compliment to each other.
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People may want to know how they differ from each other and we can talk about that.
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But one main thing about this book is that we focus very narrowly on the ministry of Bethel
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Church and the Apostle Bill Johnson and the prophet Chris Valatin and the worldwide
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a global effect that they are having.
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As Holly said, they are the main distributor, you could say, of the ideas of the New Apostolic
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Reformation today.
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And so if people aren't sure what NAR is, we use that or NAR as an abbreviation for
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the movement.
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If they're not sure what that is, they might know of Bethel Church either through its
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School of Supernatural Ministry or through YouTube videos they've watched or books they've
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read by their authors or through Bethel Music, which is probably the most common way that
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people are initially introduced, even through the music that's used in congregational singing
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or in their youth groups at their own churches.
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So actually I think the title will make a lot of sense to people and it doesn't mean
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it isn't intended as a projection onto the movement of something that it hasn't used
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to describe itself.
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Anytime throughout this, by the way we're doing two shows with Holly and Doug, anytime you
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want to mention the music, the worship, because it can be very seductive, it can be addictive
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and that's one of the ways they get their theology out.
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Holly, if you'd like to speak briefly on that, because I think how a lot of people get
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introduced to Bethel.
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Go ahead.
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Yes, so we're contacted by many people from around the world and a story we often hear
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is that the way people were drawn into this movement first was through Bethel Music or
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through the music of Jesus' culture, which came out of Bethel Church or other Nar churches.
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So the music really is a gateway into Nar and Bethel leaders are open that they actually
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see their music as a tool for disseminating their teachings and practices to churches throughout
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the world.
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And Bill Johnson talks about, we cite a quote by him in counterfeit kingdom where he
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talks about that music has a way of bypassing the intellectual barriers and people will
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begin to believe things through music that they wouldn't believe if they just heard it
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through preaching.
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And Bethel theology and New Apostolic Reformation theology is lace, the theology is lace
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throughout the lyrics of the music, but a lot of people might not see that because they
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don't know the teachings or the buzzwords, but once they learn those things, they'll
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start to see it in the music, maybe the music that their church is using, even though
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their church isn't a part of the New Apostolic Reformation, churches throughout the world
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are using their music and not all those churches are realizing and seeing that the theology
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is lace through the lyrics.
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So you guys say that Bethel Church in Reading, California is one of the most popular and
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polarizing churches in America.
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So Doug, it is an NAR movement, part of the movement, one of the key catalysts in
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the movement, if you want to put that way, can you share a little bit more for some of
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our younger audience or maybe newer believers that aren't really sure what the New Apostolic
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Reformation is?
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I know you mentioned it, but share a little bit more about what it is and why we are to
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be concerned about it.
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Yes, this movement, NAR or the New Apostolic Reformation, is a movement that promotes
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the doctrine that apostles and prophets have been reinstated in the church by the Holy
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Spirit for these last days to produce new revelations and equip people to perform miraculous
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acts in the church through healing, the casting out of demons, and in other ways miracles
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are supposed to be a routine experience, a routine phenomenon.
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And the miracles that we are to be activated to perform include miracles that far exceed
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even the significance of the miracles that Jesus did, greater miracles even than Jesus
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himself worked.
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And so one thing to look for is evidence of the miraculous that is well documented and
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not just mythological, but also whether it actually meets this high standard of being
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even greater than the works of Jesus.
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But the point is to be able to establish a community of believers who operate in the miraculous
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because they've been activated in the miraculous, the prophetic healing, and so forth so that
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they can basically recover lost territory in all of the sectors of society.
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This is an allusion to the Seven Mountain Mandate, according to which there are the seven
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sectors of society and influence in the world that have a greater leveraging power to
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bring about these Kingdom of God purposes in the supernatural.
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And they would include family, government, church, education, entertainment, and so
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forth.
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And we talk about these individually in our several books.
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So the Seven Mountain Mandate, is that, does that go hand in hand with Kingdom now, bring
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God's Kingdom to Earth now, take back all the major institutions, the Seven Mountains,
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is that what I'm understanding?
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Yes.
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And the idea is to bring Heaven to Earth, which is idiom based on an interpretation that
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you can find in Bill Johnson in his writings and his teachings.
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Again, he's the Apostle at Bethel Church in Reading, California.
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And at that church that Holly and I have both visited, you will see a banner in the
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main sanctuary where it says, bringing Heaven to Earth.
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This is sort of the motto of the church.
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And the language derives from the Lord's Prayer in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to
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the Father and gives us our example for prayer that we worship the King.
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And we pray that what is done in Heaven will be realized on Earth as well.
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So they think that when you describe the conditions in Heaven where there is no illness, there's
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no sickness, there's no sin, there's no evil.
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And there are many other features of Heaven.
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Jesus intended that all of these things should be realized or manifested on the Earth through
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our efforts.
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And so with that distortion of the model prayer of Jesus, they have launched this effort
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to bring Heaven to Earth and to realize.
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And it's a kind of dominionism according to which the church will exercise dominion in
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society and around the world through these various sectors called the Seventh Mountains.
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So Holly, Pivot, where do they get this idea or maybe this interpretation on, I'm thinking
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is it Ephesians four, where do they get this for them justifying the modern day apostles
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and prophets, right, where is that one of the places they get it?
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The key verse they use is Ephesians 4.11 talks about Christ giving apostles, prophets, evangelists,
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pastors, teachers.
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So they call it the five-fold ministry and we'll often use the image of a hand.
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And what they'll say is that the church has been missing the apostles and prophets, you
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know, the first two fingers and for centuries.
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And so the church can't become God's powerful fist to bring His kingdom to Earth until
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those offices are restored and because those are the only two offices that are authorized
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by God to bring new revelation to the church.
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So the pastors they would say teach the written revelation of Scripture, but they don't
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have access to this new revelation.
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And so for that reason, pastors must submit to the apostles and prophets and the apostles
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and prophets will hold the highest offices in the church and give these new revelations
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or new strategies as in some of those new revelations or strategies like Doug was talking
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about.
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The Seven Mountain Mandate is a revelation that's allegedly been given to prophets
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in the NAR movement, that that's a strategy for how God intends for the church to bring
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heaven to Earth is by the apostles rising to the top of those seven major societal institutions
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casting out the high-ranking demons, which they call territorial spirits that allegedly
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rule over those institutions and then through that bringing God's kingdom to Earth.
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Okay, there's a lot to take in here, especially for people that aren't familiar with all this.
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So I know there is a spiritual warfare going on all around us and there is some truth to
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the fact that there are demons trying to influence and trying to affect people, affect cities
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or governments.
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Doug, I want to go over to you back to Ephesians 4-11.
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Do they see that as a hierarchy, as the pastors and the pastors and teachers are under the
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authority of apostles and prophets?
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Yes, in fact, they do.
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They see the order there.
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There are several mistakes in the way they handle this passage and one has to do with
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the order.
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They think that the order reflects a kind of hierarchical priority.
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And so apostles and prophets are mentioned first.
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Now I believe because of what it says in chapter 2 of Ephesians, that they're mentioned
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first in part because they provide the foundation for the church.
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And this is, I believe, fundamentally a reference to the first century apostles and there were
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prophets in those days.
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I mean, Paul himself is considered to be a prophet as were some of the other apostles.
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And Jesus was regarded as a prophet and so were the prophets of the Old Testament, of
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course.
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And so these do provide the foundation for the church.
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And so there is that kind of priority in that sense that is reflected in Paul's letter
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to the Ephesians.
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But the ordering of the different functions of these five figures in the church does not
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necessarily reflect the kind of authority that our leaders believe apostles and prophets
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actually have.
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This is because they hold that these individuals operate within offices within the church.
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They are not merely exercising spiritual gifts of the apostolic or the prophetic, but
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they actually function within official roles that they call offices in the church.
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And this is a real difference in the way that they understand the operation of these two
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figures in comparison with Pentecostals and Charismatics traditionally.
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And this is one thing we like to note and need to point out is that when we are talking
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about, no, we're not talking about classical Pentecostalism or the Charismatic movement
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or Pentecostal Charismatic movements plural.
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We're talking about a different movement that is far beyond that and teaches things that
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are contrary to these historical traditions.
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And so we don't really take a position in our critique of NAR regarding whether the spiritual
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gifts that are sometimes called miraculous, healing, miracles, speaking in tongues, prophecy,
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have continued from the first century to the present, or have been reintroduced into
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society by the spirit of God in more recent years, or whether they have ceased and permanently
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gone to the side.
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We don't take a position on that because our critique is concerned with this extremism
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of this aberrant movement that wants to be regarded as more classically Pentecostal
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and Charismatic.
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And so it's a bit of a deception to represent themselves that way, either by themselves
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or by defenders of that movement, if some have.
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So we're speaking with Holly Pivic and Doug Geiv at the book is called Reckless Christianity.
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When we come back, we're going to talk about some from in chapter one, they dig into the
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Apostle Bill Johnson, that's the senior leader of Bethel Church, and that's next on World
18:34
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Okay, Holly Pivic, back to you for this one.
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I was really impressed in the preface of the book.
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I really liked the way you laid out the criteria for responsible engagement.
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And you guys, it was, it's so well balanced.
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I think there are 15 of them, they're so, it's so well balanced, if you just speak a
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word about this because some people, maybe a minority of our viewers, think you, you might
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be a little harsh on Bethel Church or just, just speak to these that you use for a criteria
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and just your balanced approach to this, to discernment, basically, yes, we have this
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list of criteria and reckless Christianity also included in our book, New Apostolic
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Reformation.
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And we've used this criteria really to help us in all of our work as we approach the
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New Apostolic Reformation, as we write about New Apostolic Reformation leaders.
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We want, we want to make sure that our tone is right, that, you know, that we say in
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there that, you know, we believe that the leaders in this movement are genuine believers.
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I mean, of course, we don't know the heart of everyone, but we're not, we're not, you
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know, saying that people that are in this movement are not Christians.
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We don't call them heretics, but, but what we do say is we scripture, according to scripture,
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we're supposed to hold up the teachings, all teachings, you know, in Acts 17-11, we
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see that when the Apostle Paul brought new teachings, the Bereans tested his teachings
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by the scripture that they had, the Old Testament scripture at the time, to see if his teachings
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wind up with scripture, and if the Apostle Paul's teachings had to be held up to scripture,
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how much more so should we be holding up the teachings today of any Apostle, so-called
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Apostle or prophet or teacher?
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And so we really want to be careful that we carefully document everything we say that
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we're not putting words into the leaders' mouths that aren't there.
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We acknowledge in the opening criteria of our book that just because one NAR leader
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might teach a certain thing doesn't mean that all NAR leaders agree with that particular
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teaching.
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So we really want to approach those that we critique chartably and be sure that we
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are reflecting their teachings accurately and not misrepresenting them and doing that
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in a Christ-like manner.
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Amen.
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Thank you.
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I really appreciate and respect you guys for taking this approach and, like I said, it's
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so well balanced, but you're obviously not painting everybody involved with NAR and
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churches around the country with this broad brush.
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But Doug, I'll toss this over to you, why write an entire book, Reckless Christianity,
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primarily focusing on Bethel Church and Bill Johnson and its leaders.
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Right?
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Well, you know, we have a responsibility, those who are gifted as teachers or who have
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the gift of discernment need to be closely inspecting the fruit of our ministries.
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And we are all members of this church whose reputation is on the line.
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And we have a stake in this.
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It isn't just, well, let's just let others do what they want to do in the name of Jesus
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Christ.
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And we'll just be about the business of doing what we believe God would have us do.
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If we have been warned by Jesus that there are there are coming many false prophets and
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false teachers who will even perform signs and wonders in order to attract the attention
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of others and convince them, perhaps even convince the elect Jesus said, then we need to
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be on the lookout for them.
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I mean, anybody who believes in the prophetic and wants to be sensitive to God's work in
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the prophetic in these days should be especially concerned with these prophetic words of Jesus
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that we see coming to pass in our own time.
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And we have a responsibility then not to let them continue to teach things that are contrary
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to scripture or to teach things as if they are true from scripture or to come with new
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revelations that are on top of what the scriptures teaches and what may actually be at odds
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with them.
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So that's a responsibility we have now having done it, we're seeing that many people are
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sensitive to the concerns that we raise, even without having read our book, many sit
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in the services and do have questions and wonder.
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And they're not getting their questions answered to their satisfaction.
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And if they show any resistance or if they ask the wrong kinds of questions, they'll
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be banned from the fellowship.
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And sometimes they'll be accused of having an evil spirit even.
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The spirit of religion is one that you oftentimes hear of.
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And so we believe that we have this responsibility to help people find their way out of a movement
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that misrepresenting the truth of the gospel even and not just other things in the Bible,
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but the very gospel itself is at stake here.
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Because while they would teach or if they were asked, you know, what do you believe the
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gospel is?
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They might say, well, we believe that it requires an understanding, an understanding the
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gospel consists in understanding that Jesus Christ came to this earth at the Son of God
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and lived a sinless life and provided salvation for us through his death on the cross and
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his resurrection from the dead.
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And that would be right, but typically when they talk about the gospel, they like to
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talk about what they call the gospel of the kingdom, resting a certain phrase from the
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New Testament, wrenching it from its context and the context of Jesus teaching and imposing
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something else on it that means something different.
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And that is this is the gospel of the realization of the kingdom of God or heaven on earth today
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in the way that we've already described through the manifestation of these various supernatural
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giftings.
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And so this is not something you can just let pass.
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And then when you learn of people who have left the movement in tears, distraught, some
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people confused now about what intimacy with God really looks like, some have said to
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us, I started to wonder if I was even worshiping the true Jesus and discovered that I really
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wasn't.
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And people who are saying, I really believed in the authority of scripture, but I didn't
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read it for myself and I didn't use it as a test of those who are teaching around me.
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And they've said that I have repented of my pattern of just taking these teachers word
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for it and not seeing what God himself had to say about these things.
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And then they talk about how their families have been destroyed or their personal reputations
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have been damaged or they have lost money because they followed the prophetic counsel
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of someone who said invest in this way or give to this cause and God will richly bless
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you and so forth.
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Families have been torn apart as young people have left their homes and their friends and
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traveled many miles to go to red, redding in California to go through the Bethel School
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of Supernatural Ministry and end up believing and behaving as Christians in a completely
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different way than they grew up.
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And this creates tension.
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Families are not understanding, you know, how is this happening?
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What's really going on here?
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And so we just hear testimony after testimony of people who are at different stages in
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trying to make sense of this and and estimate the damage in their personal lives.
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And of course, some have testified that they've actually left the church altogether
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and we're not they're not prepared to return to Christianity in any way or form.
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Now lately I've been especially mindful of the fact that this movement is now old enough
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for young people who were born into this movement to becoming of age.
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And in their youth, they're going to be contemplating the beliefs of others and wondering
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is what I've been taught actually true, which is a good thing.
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It's a healthy thing to be sure.
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And I've been a university professor for decades and I'm totally committed to the growth, the
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intellectual and spiritual growth of young people.
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But I'm concerned that as these young people emerge, there will always be a segment
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of them that are more intellectually oriented, just naturally curious and read and like to
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probe the different worldviews and want to understand their own worldview in comparison
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with what others believe.
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World view is a is a concept that's familiar to your audience for sure.
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Absolutely.
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Well, Doug, we've got to take a pause here.
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We're going to talk more about this in part two of this program.
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We're talking with Holly Pivic and Doug Geivett, the authors of the new book, Reckless
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Christianity.
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A lot more to come, including some of the most important takeaways and some teachings
28:57
and quotes by Bill Johnson, leader at Bethel.
29:00
So guys, God bless you and as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.