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Interview with Rebecca Larson: A Special Edition Episode on Thomas Seymour · Beheaded

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is a special edition episode today.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Megan Moore.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we're coming at you on an off-season, which we've never really done before.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're pretty excited about it.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so this is just a special edition episode.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually an interview with one Rebecca Larson.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you don't know who Rebecca Larson is, you should because she's an author, blogger, and the podcast host of Tudor Dynasties, which, if you know, is one of the most well-known podcasts about tutor history.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she's interviewed herself tons of historians, people that you probably know very well.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Allison Weir, Margaret George, Tracy Borman, uh, I think Megan, you said as well, Dan Jones, you talk about.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, we talk about that a little bit in the interview, so you'll hear all about it.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, she interviews all stars, and so we were so excited to have the opportunity in our offseason to do an interview with her.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, different type of episode, right?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is not centered around an execution, we're just kind of doing a profile on someone, um, and that someone is Thomas Seymour.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Rebecca's actually writing a book about Thomas Seymour, who was Edward VI's uncle.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not sure who Edward VI is, um, he was the child between uh King Henry VIII and Jane Seymour.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, uh a little bit of background on Thomas Seymour because we like once the interview starts, um, we just kind of jump right into uh her take on Thomas Seymour and all that she loves about him.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: He was the younger brother of Edward Seymour, the first Duke of Somerset.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um and as Edward VI's oldest uncle, the Duke of Somerset was the Lord Protector of England, while Edward was an underage king.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, in other words, he could basically make decisions for England and act as king.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of Edwards going on, a lot of stories, if you realize that.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh because of that, because he was kind of uh you know making decisions uh on behalf of England, it created a lot of sibling rivalry between Thomas and his older brother Edward.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the general background, um, and just some other notes about Thomas Seymour that Megan gets into with Rebecca Larson.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he was known for being really a romantic at court.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: He quickly married Henry VIII's sixth wife, Catherine Parr, just a few months after the king had died.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he was also known to have been pursuing Elizabeth, perhaps in a kind of inappropriate fashion.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: I guess you discussed that a little bit more until we get into it.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, despite her young age.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So Rebecca is an expert on Thomas Seymour, and while he's a pretty controversial person in tutor history, um, she really helps shed a lot of light on his true intentions and you know how perhaps he's maybe been a little bit misportrayed over time, a little bit misunderstood over time.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's really exciting.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm not a part of the official interview, it's just Megan and Rebecca, uh, but I'm super excited to kind of tear up and uh, you know, just give this to you guys in the off season.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was super fun interviewing with Rebecca, so we hope to do some more of these types of things in the future.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: But for now, enjoy.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: Enjoy.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: I have the pleasure of speaking with Rebecca Larson.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: She is the host and owner of the Tutors Dynasty podcast.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, welcome, Rebecca.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me, Megan.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: I am equally as excited because I will have to say, your podcast really inspired me to start Beheaded in the first place.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think I started listening back in 2019, I want to say, or actually, no, 2018, probably.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: And the very first one that caught my eye was um your episode about the executions.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, rightfully so.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I definitely want to hear a little bit about just how you got started and fell into this passion of tutor history.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay, great.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is, you know, I don't get to tell this story often enough.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, as far as how I came into tutor history, that goes probably way back to my childhood and my interest in genealogy and wanting to know about my own family tree and where I came from and the stories behind that.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I kind of fell out of that for a while until I got pregnant with my daughter.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then once again, that I had that refueled desire to want to know more about my heritage.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And at the time, my mother-in-law was um using ancestry.com and building, you know, her family tree.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And she kind of gave me some pointers and I got started with it.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I started connecting things, you know, she told me about the little leaves.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Here are these little hints.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you open these hints and you can connect it to your tree.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just started opening these hints and connecting everything to the tree, and eventually I found a connection to Margaret Tudor, who is Henry VIII's older sister.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, this is cool.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've heard of Henry VIII before.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Margaret Tudor, awesome, you know, she's the grandmother of Mary, Queen of Scots that, you know, I discovered.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, after I had my daughter, it was about 2007, I think, when Showtime's the Tudors came out.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And because of that family tree stuff, I was really interested in learning more.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I watched the series and I got pulled into this series and then kind of went back to the family tree and realized that unfortunately those little hints that I added to my tree weren't necessarily accurate and there was an error in there, which then removed Margaret Tutor from my family tree.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I was I was upset about that, but it taught me a lesson, and it's something when people are doing genealogy, I always say, be a little wary.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just add every little hint that it gives you.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure that you go back and find the connection.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: But that's really what got me interested in the Tudors was kind of genealogy mixed in with happenstance in this TV show.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually in 2015, I did, you know, did some social media.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: I opened a Twitter account and just thought, I'm gonna try something here.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm really interested in this and I want to share some stories, but I wasn't ready to write yet.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: So back then they had Paperly.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you remember Paperly.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think I do, unfortunately.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: It basically was like an online paper where you could just um add links to articles that you found so you could create your own paper.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I created my Tutors Weekly, that's how it originally started, okay, as this paper where I just found blogs and articles online and put the links in there.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that eventually grew into me wanting to have a voice.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And my husband helped me start the blog and just start writing the blog.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then about a year into doing the blog, somebody said, You should start a podcast.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I went, No, no, no, I don't want to do a podcast.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: I can barely write.
• 6:50
  unknown: You know.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but after so many times hearing that, I thought, well, I can do this.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my husband's background is in the radio industry, and so he can get me set up with everything that I need.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I started it was really this passion that I had and people asking me to do it.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, why not?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: I can try it.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be scary.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So February 2017 is when I did my first episode, and it's been a fun ride.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's just inspiring, and that's everything I want to be.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: So um, I love your show so much too, because you cover such a whole array of topics about the tutors, and some of them are very specific, and you kind of go into every I like to call them characters, like the characters of history, and you really get um into some of those characters that we don't hear of so often.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And whether it's listeners who don't know a lot about it, or um somebody who thinks that they, you know, they they have a general understanding of a person, but then you get into specific details.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I have to ask, what is one of your favorite episodes that you've broadcasted, or um perhaps your favorite person in tutor history?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's so hard.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: I've just, you know, I've been so lucky, Megan, to be able to talk to the people who have had on the show.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I never in a million years would I have thought back when I first started learning about the tutors that I'd be talking to these well-known historians and authors.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I have to, I have to say my favorite interview and my favorite guest has to be my very first interview guest, who was Dan Jones.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, heart throb.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let me tell you, doing the interview with Dan was terrifying and exciting all at the same time.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was so nervous.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I was just um listening through part of that episode today, and I thought, I haven't listened to this in forever.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I hit play and I thought, you can tell how nervous I am.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: I can hear it in my voice when I'm talking to a part of it, honestly, Rebecca, is you have so many important guests on your show.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone who's anyone in this industry, or I call it the industry, but in our our world of history here, um, Susanna Lipscomb, Tracy Borman, and of course Dan Jones.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, I have to be a little bit immature about it, but he's honestly the Brad Pitt of historians, if we're being honest.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: But of course, he has his um what is it, the great greatest British castles uh I think that's what it's called on Netflix.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, he is fantastic.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: So so what was he like?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Was he what you expected?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or no what you heard on that episode is exactly who he is.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: He's a no BS guy, he says it like it is, and he is not afraid to laugh, which I love because I always want, you know, when I'm interviewing somebody, I always want them to feel relaxed, like you're chatting with a friend.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I want you to be comfortable enough to laugh while we're having conversation because why not?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's the fun of it.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: We do this for fun, and I think there is a stigma of somebody who has so many published books out there, and they're a curator of, you know, Tracy Borman of the historic royal palaces.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's very intimidating, but we share a similar passion and we can make it casual and um, you know, take the stuffiness out of talking about British history.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, we need to.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's why people become more interested.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's a little bit in all of us that gets drawn towards the creepy parts.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's fascinating.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can't help but want to know more.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's the way that people were punished.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's imagine if we still lived in a society like that now.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I can't even crazy.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Crazy.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're very lucky.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: So we have the joy of talking about who I believe is one of your favorite characters also in this time period, and of course, had a very gruesome ending, and that is Thomas Seymour.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: So just to start, what fascinates you the most about Thomas Seymour?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, there's so much when it comes to him.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we look at his life.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, let me go back because I feel like there's there's a story that a lot of people haven't heard yet of how Thomas really came about for me.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because back in October of 2016, um, I was approached by a lady who's now my mentor.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she had said, you know, I've been following your blog and I think you're doing great work.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I was wondering, you know, if you would be interested in writing a book.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, my blog isn't even that good, you know, at the time I was full of self-doubt and and didn't know what to do.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and she said, well, just think about it.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if you'd be interested, I would be curious to know what tutor figure you'd like to write about.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't even need to think about it.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: I told her it was Mary Howard.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I fascinated with Mary.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think I had just read a bunch of books on Katherine Parr at that time.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so Mary Howard, of course, um, is tied in with the whole Thomas Seymour story and with Katherine Parr.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I thought she would be great.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and the lady told me, she said, you know, it's gonna be very difficult for you to write your for first book, first nonfiction book on a woman because there's gonna be less records for you to go off of.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, you know what?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you're right.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't make my first book so difficult.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I thought about it for a little bit, and Thomas Seymour just came to mind.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think just because I had been reading about him and his connection to Mary Howard and his connection to Catherine Parr, and the fact that he was the brother of a queen, and not just any queen, the queen that gave Henry VIII a living son.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And there was just so much about him that was fascinating.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you look at his whole story, he is just he's an enigma.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's the only way I can describe him, is he fascinates me, probably because he is an enigma.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and there's also so many different perspectives of him.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like people either love him or hate him.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think he was truly an unfavorable person?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: And is that why people are attracted to the to him?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Or is he just, did he just get stuck with a bad reputation?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny that you say that it is a love or hate type of relationship with him.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's a there's some that are in the middle ground, but for the most part, you're either, hey, you know, he was innocent or hey, he's guilty and he's a dirt bag.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: But really, in my opinion, um during his lifetime, he he was well liked.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it really wasn't until his downfall, his nephew became the king of England, that things started to change for him.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, really up to 1547, he was well liked.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't really until Edward VI came to the throne that he started, I think, even showing a little bit more of a side of his personality that hadn't been seen before.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And once he was put in the tower, um, you know, the writing was already on the wall for Thomas Seymour, and he was going to be executed.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they passed an act of attainder on him.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: So he didn't even get a chance to say anything.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so he's in the tower, he gets executed, and not long after Hugh Latimer is, you know, preaching to Edward VI about how Thomas Seymour was responsible for the murder of a woman or for the death of a woman.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it just gets worse.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then as the centuries progress, people keep repeating these terrible stories about him that weren't necessarily true.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's probably what hurts his case the most is that nobody's been willing to say, hey, here's the real story.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't we look at the big picture first before we, you know, just go off of what people from history have told us in the past.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: It really can turn into the telephone game too.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: And when 500 plus years have passed, it's we really have to get down to the research on it and figure out what was the true story.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, there's so much of that where I go.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Where did you even come up with that?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then you find the source and you go, okay, well, of course they're gonna say that because they were enemies with England at the time or whatever it may be.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, sure.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: So in one of your episodes about Thomas Seymour, you talk about his relationship with Catherine Parr, of course, being King Henry VIII's final and sixth wife and the only survivor.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: And you had referred to them as being a former fling.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Was he actually in love with Catherine before her marriage to Henry VIII?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Or what did that relationship look like?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, there is no evidence of that relationship except for the mention of it in a letter by Catherine Parr.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, other than that letter, we don't really know anything.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: That is the only indication that we have that there was a relationship or something was going on prior, enough so that she, you know, said she would have wished to marry him before all others.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really her words right there are all that we know.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Which is again a testament to just how little knowledge we might have.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: We re we hang on to one letter or one document and have to build the story around it.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that's interesting.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, people run with it and they go, oh, well, this means that they were in a relationship for two months beforehand, or you know, her husband only died in March.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And who knows?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's all speculation.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things I think like people think of the most when they hear about Thomas Seymour is just how much he pursued Elizabeth and even her sister Mary.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: So he first tried to marry Princess Elizabeth and Princess Mary, and correct me if I'm wrong, but he goes to the council and they deny it and they said, sorry, Charlie, not gonna happen.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: So then he goes and marries Catherine Parr, and that was in complete secret.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And he didn't quite get the council's approval for that.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: So would that have been considered an illegal marriage since he didn't go through the proper steps?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Before I answer that, I have to backtrack a little bit because I can't.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Please don't.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the one I would say the one thing that bothers me the most is I don't understand um where everybody gets the idea that he wanted to marry Lady Mary.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: I do not see any evidence of that other than I think it was in the French correspondence that the French ambassador had written something about a rumor about it.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and and that's all that I have found.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: So if if somebody out there knows more than that, please let me know because that is all that I've been able to find.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, at the time, France was not a big fan of England.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: So they weren't uh, you know, they they weren't afraid to make the uncle of the king look bad, which in turn would make England look bad.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so yet again, uh my Elizabeth, my Elizabeth Black, who and I are always prefacing when we give information of like, you know, this is just one source, and this is the source that we're going to go with.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I love hearing different perspectives from historians, but that that would make sense.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: If there is just maybe one thing and one place that said that, you know, and people once again, people take it and they run with it.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: So there was also a rumor.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: They thought at one point that he was gonna marry um Catherine Willoughby.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh and that was another one.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was just an ambassador writing it.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: He had heard it somewhere and a rumor in court.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and then, you know, but we don't hear that, do we?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's not as scandalous as as the you know, the daughter of Henry VIII.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, people know Mary.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course, when it comes to Elizabeth, um, I think the one thing that people forget or that it gets glossed over quickly is that Kat Ashley, in her testimony, makes a statement that sometimes gets overlooked, I believe.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And she says that if if um Thomas had had his way, I'm I wanted to get the words right, but I don't think I'm going to, but if Thomas had had his way that he would have wed or asked to have wed Elizabeth before Henry VIII died.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we're talking before.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when Edward VI became king, there's all this talk about the um the engagement letter, the rejection letter by Elizabeth.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth's rejection letter, in my opinion, and I would say, in the opinion of many historians, is a fake.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: It is not real.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: The person who published that originally was Gregorio Letty, and um his work has for centuries um been looked at skeptically by historians because many of the things that he wrote about turned out to be fake.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: So keep that in mind when you look at that letter too.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the and the thing to keep in mind too is that why on earth would Thomas Seymour write an engagement proposal to a successor of the throne?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And why would she respond in writing to something clearly would be illegal because her any marriage that she made had to be approved by counsel.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: That is so true.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and plus let's consider her age at this time.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: That would have been considered inappropriate even in those days.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and if we're looking at, you know, 15, late 1546, early 1547, she would have been 13, right?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: About 13.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, on the cusp, maybe, maybe not that and in today's terms by sh by far, yes.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, by the end of 1547, she is of marriage age.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but of course, by that time, Thomas Seymour had already wed Catherine Parr.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's of my opinion that um he had no intention after Henry VIII died to look at Elizabeth again.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think once he saw Catherine was free, it was it was two things.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think he, you know, wanted to reignite a flame, possibly with an old love after having to wait all these years.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And she was also attractive to him as a dowager queen.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she was now the widow of the dead king and guaranteed a lot of money every year.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Plus, she had all of these properties and um and buildings and such.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: So by marrying her, Thomas then receives all that himself.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: So When he married her, as far as I understand, it wasn't against the law, but I think it would be frowned upon.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just because of who they were, because she was the dowager queen and he was the uncle to the king, there probably should have been more discussion about it because that's a very high profile marriage.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very scandalous.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: And not only that, very quickly after King Henry VIII's death, it was only months later um that they actually got married.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: So kind of a quick turnaround when she should probably probably have been in mourning for her husband.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was definitely one of the biggest problems.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh the biggest problems that they created was by doing it so quickly.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: If they had waited, they probably wouldn't have gotten permission.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably why they didn't wait.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's it's easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission, as they say.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: It always is.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: So going back to Elizabeth, there are so many, I want to say rumors.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this, but of the inappropriate relationship between Thomas Seymour and Princess Elizabeth after he was married to Catherine.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is probably one of the most talked-about topics when it comes to Thomas and Elizabeth.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the most difficult one for me to answer because they lived in such a different time than we live in now.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And what was okay in society then is different than it is now.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I wholeheartedly believe that there was some type of flirtation between Thomas and Elizabeth.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it seems if indeed he's going into her room and he's trying these things and she's blushing at the mention of his name, it just it seems like a lot of flirting going on.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and I can't explain it one way or another, whether it was ill-intentioned or not, or um, or what, but I don't think that he would try to marry Elizabeth, like some have said, while Catherine Parr is still pregnant, you know, working on Elizabeth.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, she's gonna have your son, you know, supposedly.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why would you be so worried about getting hooked up with Elizabeth at this point?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't make sense to me.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: And going even farther, I read even rumors that she was sent away from the because she lived with Catherine Parr and Thomas Seymour.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: And some even said that she had gotten pregnant, and that's why they banished her away, so to speak, and had her live um, you know, elsewhere.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: But do you think that's just complete court gossip that has transpired throughout the years?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's say something obviously happened for Elizabeth to have to leave Catherine Parr's household.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Something happened.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know exactly what happened.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's stories about um Elizabeth being caught in the arms of Thomas or Thomas seeing her in the arms of a man.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: And which one is true, we don't know.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Something happened to cause Elizabeth to leave.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: But as far as rumors about her being pregnant, there's there's no truth to that.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, Elizabeth herself was so upset when she heard about the rumor that she wrote um Edward Seymour, Lord Protector, you know, and she told him that she wished that she could come to court to prove that she was not with child.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I believe that that rumor really hurt Elizabeth and that she understood its ramic ramifications to her reputation at the time, that if it got out that it that she wasn't um as virtuous as she should be, that would really hurt her marriage prospects in the future, too.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, think about her, you know, her mother and even Catherine of Aragon as well.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's all about holding on to that virtue because it could ruin everything down the road.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I fullheartedly believe that this incident, everything that happened in Catherine Parr's house and the downfall of Thomas Seymour really affected Elizabeth deep down.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think she used that in the future to know how to protect herself when in a situation like this, or she would learn to not be in a situation like that again.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna jump around a little bit, and I don't mean to cut to the end here, but I mean, just because we're on the topic of Elizabeth, she was rolled into all of that once the charges started going down, and they had her interrogated, uh, as well as Kat Ashley, um, trying to get down to the truth of what happened and if she's a traitor along with Thomas Seymour.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: So um, was that kind of her first taste of being on the other side of the table in the tower and being the one interrogated?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, when it comes to Elizabeth, I I'm not as strong.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: I know that when when Thomas Seymour's downfall was happening, that she was getting questioned at I want to say a chess hunt, um, where um Sir Robert Tirrett, maybe he's not a sir, but I could be mistaken there, did all the questioning for her.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And she was very stubborn at that time.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she kind of stood her, stood her ground and wasn't gonna give up much information.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then, you know, later she's thrown in the tower with Mary.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think she just learned over the years how to fight the battles, the right way to fight them.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: She was smart.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if if that's the only reason or if she just picked up things, you know, throughout her life where she said, you know, I have to preserve myself, and these are the ways that I can do it.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: But she's definitely she she deserves um a lot of credit for her behavior in those early years.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't think I could have done that at the age that she was in, and then, you know, really hold her ground.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: So switching gears a little bit, there's something I, you know, while reading about Thomas Seymour, I just I get very confused.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I want you to help me understand this, and hopefully I'm not the only one a little bit confused.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: So they bring up a lot how how Thomas Seymour was giving money to his nephew Edward VI.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that came up in all of these allegations as well, and how he was basically bribing his nephew.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now, at this time, although he was young, Edward VI was still the king of England, and I'm assuming quite wealthy.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Mind you, his you know, Thomas's older brother, Edward Seymour, was his lord protector.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: But what what's the deal with the pocket money that they talk about?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why wouldn't, as the king of England, did he really need to take an allowance from his uncle to feel important?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Or just I'm trying to understand the situation.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what we see is we see um Edward, and I'm just gonna refer to Edward and and I'll refer to Edward Seymour as maybe protector or somerset, but Edward had been complaining to Thomas about not having any money for himself.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And he in particular wanted the money to give to his servants and such.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just it just happened to be at the right time when when Thomas, you know, was able to go, oh, this could benefit me.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not gonna lie, it's totally a benefit for him to be able to bribe his nephew in this way.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so he stepped in and and began giving his his nephew the king some money.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: So really, as a minor, Edward's power was very limited.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: And um the other Edward, the Lord Protector, Duke of Somerset, really used his position as if he was king de facto.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: So he really had control over everything.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that was something that ended up getting, you know, him in trouble when he wrote a letter to Francis I and referred to him as brother.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he got in, he got in some hot water for that.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: He was not a king.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I feel like he really had um a lot of control on the purse strings for the young king.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um it was a perfect opportunity for Thomas to come in and and show his his nephew that he's the cool uncle, right?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm picturing.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just picturing like, like, hey kid, you know, here's a couple bucks for you, go buy some candy or something.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just thinking, like, what is Edward even doing with this money?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: You don't think he could like snap his fingers and get whatever he wanted, but it really was just a power trip then for Thomas and feeling special.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: And he could use it to his advantage.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we see him trying to get his nephew to sign things for him or trying to get him to agree to things on the side.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but even Edward is smart enough to see his uncle's trying things and goes to his tutor and is like, I'm not sure if I should do this.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And his tutor's like, don't do it.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Smart kid, smart kid.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: That was I think, you know, the intent that Thomas had, of course, to win the favor of the king to get his way was not a bad idea.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: He just, I think, did it poorly.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: And well, like many, you know, courtiers and and rich folks at that time, they were so ambitious, and everybody just had their eye on how close to the throne can I get, and how how high can I get ranked in power.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, that was like his his biggest um, you know, his biggest competition was his older brother.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: And he just didn't feel like he was getting the rankings that he deserved, right?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: He was just wanting more and more power all the time.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think he expected that he should have had more power from the beginning.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things that boggles me a lot is why didn't he?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they did have a they had a brother between them, Henry, who really didn't spend much time at court.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it was really just Edward Duke of Somerset and Thomas Seymour, the two Seymour brothers who are the most well-known in the court circles.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it was expected, you know, we see in in letters and papers, you know, letters from I think Chap Weiss and some of the other ambassadors who talk about how they fully suspect um after Henry VIII died that it would be um Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset, and um John Dudley, Earl of Warwick, for sure, those two who would be leading the country.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then there was a couple other that they listed, but they never listed Thomas.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that that's interesting to me because I go, well, he's the other brother.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Why on earth would he not be included?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of those questions that I'm still trying to understand.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: But really, what it came down to is by right, really, Thomas should have been made governor of the king's person because the way history had shown is that's how you did it when there was more than one surviving uncle.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we can look no further than Henry VI, where he had the two uncles or three uncles um who split up the duties.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that that Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset, took it all for himself is suspect to me.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that he he took that and he took probably six other titles on top of that, and all this land and all this wealth.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And here he is now essentially ruling England on behalf of his nephew, and he gives his younger brother a baronage.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can be a baron.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then to pacify him, or so he says to pacify him, they give him the you know, Lord, Lord High Admiral of England title.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: And as soon as Thomas receives that, he goes, Well, great, you know, I'm I'm glad I'm elevated to this much bigger title, but this means I'm gonna be out of the country most of the time.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, like it was a tool to get rid of him a little bit.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: And okay, go have fun in these other countries.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, here's your title.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: You can have your, you know, dowager queen, and here's your title, and now go.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I find that very interesting.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: It it it fascinates me to look at that because I still haven't quite figured out why by looking at what evidence remains, what happened between those Seymour brothers, who got between them?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have theories that I'll I'll put in my book, but who got in between them to cause this?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because it really seems like prior to Henry VIII's death, they got along much better than once Henry VIII died.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it was when Thomas noticed that he felt like he was getting shafted, is when he started acting out.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that kind of just escalated for the next two years.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe we have this whole persona that Thomas was kind of the bad kid in the family, but really Edward started it and just antagonized him to act in the way that he did.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Edward started a mom.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: So there's something like I'm gonna say a little bit petty, something that happened.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: When af after Catherine Parr died, Edward Seymour, sorry, and we were we were calling him um the Duke, right?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: So Duke Somerset.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: Duke Somerset, he gave all of Catherine Parr's jewels, being the Queen of England, um, gave all of her jewels to his own wife.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that was just like another petty move, or would that have been standard?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how would Thomas have reacted to something like that?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, here's the deal with the jewels.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so there were two types of jewels in this discussion.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: So the first, if you're referring to the queen's jewels, which belong to the queen consort.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, as no longer being the queen consort, those jewels no longer belong to Catherine Parr.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: But they no longer belong to Anne Stanhope, Seymour, either, because she was not a queen.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: But they believed that she had the right to wear them because she would have been the seniormost member at court, being the wife of the Lord Protector.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: The the jewels that belonged to Catherine Parr were her personal jewels, the ones that were gifts.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: So either gifts from Henry VIII, um, or I know she had some jewels that belonged to her mother as well.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: And those were all still locked up in the tower, and she was asking for them back.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: And they wouldn't even give her her own jewels back.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: And some believe that's because um they were just, you know, being spiteful towards Thomas and Catherine because they married without permission.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because Edward Seymour, the Duke of Somerset, didn't know his brother wanted to marry her.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, had he known, he would have put a stop to it.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's that's the part that interests me the most because those jewels, I mean, she fought for them up to the end.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: And after she died, then Thomas Seymour took it upon himself to continue this fight for her jewels because now they belong to their daughter, Mary.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's very symbolic too.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: And he, you know, he's like, I'm gonna keep fighting for this because this is our right.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: We deserve this.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I see that over and over with Thomas as he's like, no, I'm gonna keep fighting for this because it's ours.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we see he writes a letter to Lady Mary, and he's essentially asking her for assistance as well, and whether or not she recalled how her father had gifted something to Queen Catherine Parr.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he he wants to use that leverage, you know.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, look, even Lady Mary says these jewels belong to my wife.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now give them back.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, he worked with lawyers too.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: He worked with many lawyers um over the last two years of his life trying to find out what the what the right thing was legally and if he had a foot to stand on.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: And most of the time he did, um, but he still couldn't get those jewels back.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's very resilient though.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny because I always say I see a lot of myself in Thomas Seymour.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I can relate to him sometimes as a person.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: What would Thomas do in this situation?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: But that's what happens.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the greatest parts about learning about history is you do find that you attach to certain figures.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: And and even in modern times, it's like, gosh, what would that person have done in this situation?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, if I were in their shoes back then, what would I have done and how would I have reacted?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: And he didn't give up on many things.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, he didn't.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm no quitter.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and then he kind so he kind of starts to get into this downfall, and and maybe he's just being, you know, the stubborn younger brother who got shipped off and and fighting, and and he was a very brave guy.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like he was a soldier, and he he fought in wars.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in that sense, he was very different from his older brother.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then he also got uh kind of got corraled up in the bad crowd.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I did read about his uh interactions with pirates.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, uh what was the extent of that?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: How much did he actually mingle with the pirates?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: And could he have even been considered a pirate himself?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's such a fun question.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I like the image of it though, of him like kind of swashbuckling and jumping onto the ship, like, hey guys, I'm just gonna join you for a little bit, if you don't mind.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever watched the movie Young Bess?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I have, but it's been so long.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: But he was a big character in that movie.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: On his ships because he's on his ships with Elizabeth and with Henry VIII, and you know, let me chest puffed up.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And anyway.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: Very, very uh dramatic and cavalier.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Even though it's historically inaccurate, I still love it because it's mostly about Thomas and Elizabeth.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: I remember you did a movie review on that in one episode.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's one of my favorites.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: I still watch it over and over.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: But um, so as far as the pirates go, there it this is another one that's kind of difficult to answer because we only hear these little stories about it.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would not see him as a pirate myself, um, just because he simply wasn't on the ship.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if being on a ship makes you a pirate, then he wasn't a pirate.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: Where does the the line get drawn of what defines a pirate?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm gonna tell you, this is my this is how I picture it.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you're on the ship and you um disembark that ship and raid another ship for its loot and bring it onto your ship, you're a pirate.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't Thomas didn't do that.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: As far as I know, he didn't do that.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: But it wouldn't surprise me that much if he had instructed some sailors to feel free to take some loot and then, you know, take part of that.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I haven't found any evidence of him stockpiling money.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the part where I get confused because then they also talk about him, you know, minting money um to raise an army of 10,000 men.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the evidence shows he never even brought the plate to get it minted.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it there was talk about it, and that's one thing that Thomas was good at.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: He was good at talking, but he never actually did some of the things, it was just words.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: And even at the time, words could not necessarily constitute treason um because of the way the treason laws were at the time.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: So there had to be two people who heard you say the same thing within, and they had to report it within, I think, 30 days of hearing it.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and so really what he was doing wasn't treasonous, it was tiptoeing the line of treason.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: Which he seems to be pretty good at.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: For for some reason, too.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: I have this image of him just like being buddies with some of the pirates and like going off to the pub afterwards and kind of dabbling in relations with them.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: But no, no, no, but I'm I'm not a pirate.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: There's no exchange of looting here.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: He's kind of a fun guy.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing that we see is after his arrest, um, a sailor came forward, which they call him a pirate, came forward and gave testimony to say that Thomas was a pirate.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, it's always hard.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: When when all of a sudden all these people start coming out of the woodwork with all these stories, and he's got 33 charges against him, and you start looking through the charges, you start wondering how many of these um depositions or testimonies are fabricated just to continue burying him.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's that's the intriguing part to me.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, how far will they go?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, we've seen them do it before, right?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: They did it with Anne Boleyn.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and all of it was just such a formality, too.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: They already knew what was going to happen in the end.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was more of like how what is the path we're going to take to get there and build up this story versus having an actual legal trial.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: What a concept of giving someone a chance.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: At least she got the opportunity to speak.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thomas didn't even get that, you know, and and that's to me is the biggest red flag.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's very similar to Thomas Cromwell, who didn't get a trial.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Just an act of attainer was passed against him and he was guilty.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: So what that says is that people were afraid that if it went to trial, it would make them look bad.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: And considering he was such a smooth talker, too, right?
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he probably had a really good chance of convincing people of his innocence.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, definitely.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: He definitely was a smooth talker.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: He was a salesman, so to speak.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: He could convince anybody to do anything.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it was until they all started talking to each other, I think, that they went, Whoa, what are we doing?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: How did he do this to us?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: Before they know it, they're all at the pub with him and with him and the pirates having a deck.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then as soon as things turn sour, they're they're quick to run and go, hey, guess what he was doing?
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't want to get executed.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to help any way I can to save my life.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's every man for himself at that point.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: So the big event that really led to his arrest was the um potential kidnapping of his nephew Edward.
• 44:46
  unknown: Yeah.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: And the whole story, I know you're familiar with it, but he's he's tiptoeing through his bedroom and his little cute spaniel starts barking.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why this upsets me every time I read about it.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: But the dog starts barking and he shoots the poor little puppy.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, now he's caught in the king's chambers, loaded and armed, and like clearly up to no good.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think his plan was?
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, was his plan to actually kidnap his nephew?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: Where would they have gone?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: How far would the scheme have really been successful?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, depending on where you hear the story, this whole story changes because the story that I've heard the most often is that the dog was outside the bedchamber that night.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: And when Thomas supposedly came up to the door, the dog started barking, and then that's when the dog was shot.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: So he never was inside the chamber.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: If we just look at some of the statements that came out.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: And these aren't even testimonies, these are letters from other people in the country or outside the country talking about this event.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: So not necessarily people who were there again.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the whole, the whole dog thing, I I always get so like defensive when it comes to this, because it doesn't make sense.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Some of it makes sense, some of it doesn't.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: But if he had been there and he had shot the dog, why did they not apprehend him that night?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if they were worried about him um kidnapping or killing, because some have said that he planned to kill the king, which I think is ridiculous.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if he had had been there to do that, um to kidnap the king, why why didn't they take him?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: And he wouldn't have been dumb enough to I would it just doesn't make sense for him to fire uh a gun near the presence of the king because that wouldn't be good.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um killing the king would be regicide, and he had no reason to do that.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: He was the other um the biggest thing is that he he didn't go in the room.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: And if he had shot the dog, the dog was outside the room.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think his intent was to go in the room to shoot the king, because that would be regicide and that would be treason for sure.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: And he why would he do that?
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: It would hurt him to kill his nephew because now he's lost all of his power.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't make any sense.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: But to kidnap the king, it's possible.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the more I look at the evidence, I think, well, could he have been there that night to kidnap the king and the evidence leading up to it shows me this?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be possible, but what would he do?
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: If he did kidnap the king, what would his plan be?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and to me, that's kind of the fun part is to start to put those pieces together when you look at all the testimonies and stories and go, oh, okay.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: So if he had planned to kidnap the king, I'm not really sure how he would have gotten him out of the Hamden Court Palace and what route he would have taken.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he could have taken him in, you know, to the North Country.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: He made sure that he had friends in that area and he had Sootley up in that area and other buildings.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Holt Castle was up there, and that was the heavily fortified one, which many have said that's where he wanted to take him, and that's where he was storing ammunition and food and all of these things.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's possible.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just it seems very desperate.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if indeed that's how it played out, it was the last desperate act of a man who just didn't know what else to do.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we know that whatever he had been intending to do would affect his brother, the Duke of Somerset, because that was his target primarily.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um just wanted his brother not to have all the power, and he was okay with him being the chief counselor, but he didn't want him to have as much power, and he wanted Edward to step into his own and do his own thing.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things that he really pushed for was try to get his nephew to to come out of his minority, so to speak, faster.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think he wanted that because then he knew as the favorite uncle he would be favored more.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is, and you think he would just cut out his brother then, right?
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, wouldn't that have been the the path of least resistance?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, either way, it would have been considered treason and murder, and he'd end up in the same spot, probably.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: They both ended up in the same spot.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: True, true.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe he had what was coming for him in the end.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: That'll have to be a second, another episode of Beheaded.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that Edward the Sixth had his two uncles executed.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's pretty, yeah, it's pretty frightening to think of how how cold you have to be, especially at such a young age.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: Was he cold or was he just easily manipulated, or did he easily just believe what others told him because he didn't know better?
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to say.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: And also, is that just what he was used to?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, look at who his dad was.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: It was that was just part of the of the job, maybe.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: I guess he would have been about five when Cromwell was executed and Catherine Howard.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if he remembered that.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I always think of that too.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, same thing with Elizabeth and Anne Boleyn.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how much do they really remember?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: And how would that have really messed with someone growing up, knowing what your father did to his wife or his closest friends?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's gotta shape a person.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I definitely.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: In the end, he gets charged with 33 counts of treason.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: Are these just all like specific incidences of things that they believe that he did that that was treasonous against the king?
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: Or like what did some of these charges actually include?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny because a lot of them seem to be the same thing, just worded differently.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: Sneaky.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the things, and here I've pulled up one of them because they're so hard to remember.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but one of them, this is number 20, um, it's objected and laid unto your charge that you marry the late queen so soon after the late king's death that if she conceived straight after, it should have been a great doubt whether the child born should have been a comfort the late king's or yours, whereupon a marvelous danger and peril might and was like to have ensued to the King's Majesty's succession and quiet of the realm.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to be kidding me.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the charges.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: So they're going back.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, Whoa, you married the Dowager Queen without asking us, and she could have been pregnant with the king's baby, and so that's bad.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like they've got some deep-seated issues going on here.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like early, this was like the kitchen sink argument of everything just coming out.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_02: But also, Henry the Eighth was in no condition to really father a child at that point, anyway.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean that's just they they had everything against poor Thomas.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like they just really had it out for him.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, let's be fair, because I have another one here.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, this one is number 11.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: And this one is it's objected and laid unto your charge that you promised to marry the king at your will and pleasure.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where um Thomas had promised to marry Lady Jane Gray to Edward VI.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, in order to purchase her wardship from Henry and Francis Gray, Thomas promised them that he would arrange it for the king to marry their daughter.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so they agreed to this wardship with Thomas Seymour because in their mind they saw their daughter was going to be queen.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: And Thomas, by all right, really shouldn't have um kind of overstepping there.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know necessarily if that would be considered treason at the time.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'd have to go back and look at the laws, um, but it definitely was not his place.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it caused a whole slew of issues after that, which he just kind of like kind of made a mess of a few things.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: And at the actual trial, so you so we already kind of talked about it was well, I mean, there was no trial, so it was not fair.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't he didn't get to speak for himself.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: But who then sentenced him to death?
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: Would that have been Edward or would that have been his brother?
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so ultimately this went through Parliament.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: So Parliament had to vote on this.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: And after they voted and um the majority said that Thomas was guilty, the act of attainder was passed, but then it had to go to um both the king and the protector, and both of them signed off on it.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's heavy.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of family getting mixed in there.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, I I'm always speechless when it comes when it comes to that because I can't fathom the mindset that they would have to have to say this person, our family member, is so dangerous to us that they can't be alive anymore.
• 54:10
  unknown: Yeah.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: Again, kind of going going back to how does that shape a person.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: This was really one of Edward's like big moments of showing who he was going to be as king and really making a statement that if I can have my uncle executed, really no one is safe then.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you better watch your ground.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: Including my other uncles.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, which we yet again learn.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: He um, yeah, it's it's just crazy times back then.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then this was one thing I was I have to again like the sick part of me, I was a little bit disappointed in.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't really find a lot of the details on his actual execution.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: So was it pretty by the book and things went as planned, or was there anything interesting that happened when he finally got executed?
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is another one of those.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard to know when it comes to Thomas stories which ones are true, because of course this is after he's dead, somebody writes this.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they wrote basically that he had written um a couple letters using some hose and uh a needle.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow they say he wrote a letter using what he was wearing and stuck them in in his shoes.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um, when he went up to the block, he supposedly took these letters out and gave it to a trusted servant or somebody and said to deliver this to the Lady Mary and Lady Elizabeth.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it was allegedly something to the effect that they were supposed to um keep fighting.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: Or it's silly.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe that it's true for one minute.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: It just seems like another way to um make his character look terrible up to his execution.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: Ugh, which was the that I feel like that's the whole goal is how terrible can we make this person look to just to let everybody agree that they made the right choice.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: And this wasn't, yeah.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I I will have to admit, Rebecca, that before our conversation just now, I think I was on the side of like, ugh, this guy, he, you know, he's got a bad reputation and he was really just a snake.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: But I think he's shown me the light a little bit of maybe we should be a little bit more sympathetic to him.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: He was just the younger brother getting kicked around.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: All I ask is that people take another look at him, a fresh look at him, and try not to think about all the bad things that you've heard and just look at the big picture and decide for yourself.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even if if you look at everything and you still think he's, you know, a cat or a dirbag or, you know, a lust or whatever it may be, okay, then I feel like that's fair.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: But until you start really looking at him and understanding his story, you don't understand who he was.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_02: I have one last question.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we we kind of talked about his daughter, Mary Seymour.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: What happened to her?
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: Did she ever like come to court, just disappear?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: Poor lady Mary, right?
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: That was the Mary they get kicked around too.
• 57:19
  unknown: Right.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, she so she was born um in August 30th, I think it was, 1548 at Sudley Castle.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, you know, five days later or so that Catherine Parr died.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: And Thomas has left now devastated.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: It really does appear that he was shocked and devastated by everything that happened.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: At some point, Mary went to Scion House and stayed with um the Duke of Somerset and his wife, which kind of surprises me.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how that all played out yet.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then she moved to the household of Catherine Willoughby.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it could have been now that I go back, it could have been when ta when Thomas got locked in the tower that the Lord Protector and his wife, or the Duke of Somerset and his wife, took custody of her.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then once Thomas was in the tower, from what I understand, he requested that she go to Catherine Willoughby.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so she was with Catherine Willoughby, who was very good friends with Catherine Parr, but I think ill-prepared to have this royal child with her because she was considered a royal child child since her mother was the Dowager Queen.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so she complained often to to Cromwell that she didn't have enough money to pay for the servants or to take care of Mary.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we go back and forth in letters, and eventually in 1550, um, a restitution is made, and Mary Seymour is now given back whatever is left of her father's estates and property and such.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, at that point, there really probably wasn't very much left because once somebody is executed, especially with an act of attainer, they started selling it off and giving it away and granting it to people.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: So whatever she got, we I don't know how much exactly it was off the top of my head.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that is the last time that there is any documentation of Mary Seymour, is in 1550.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: Never again do we hear or see anything with her name on it.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: So everyone speculates that that just means that she died young, since it wasn't that unusual at the time for a young child to die.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because that was only what a year later after Thomas' death.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: I challenge you to write a book on that.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: Speaking of having little documentation.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote a blog on her, and that was hard enough.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe a big very short picture book, maybe.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: Poor girl.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: You just title it The Disappearance of Mary Seymour.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody can find it easily.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when I did that, I really tried to look at as many primary sources as possible.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I used them as a way to say, here, I'm showing you the evidence.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is what exactly it said.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now what happened to her, we don't know.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: But here's you know why we think this happened, or here's where these other stories came from about her.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: So you mentioned, are you writing a book right now about Thomas Seymour?
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: I am.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: I've been working on it in case 16.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_02: And how is that?
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, do we have any idea when that we might be able to get our hands on that or is it in in the near future?
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have given myself the deadline of 2022 to have it out.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's exciting.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: For December 31st, 2022, it'll be uh I am actively working on it whenever I have free time, obviously between working full time and and doing the podcast and and still doing some research to make sure that I have all the right information.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm right now I'm working on the chapter all about the charges.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: So this was perfect timing for for me to be able to discuss that with you.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, congratulations, and I'm gonna hold you to that date.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: And if I don't see anything, I you know I'm gonna be coming after you because uh it sounds incredible.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that is a that's a huge project to take on.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_02: So congratulations.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: I look forward to getting it out.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've talked about it long enough.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: People are ready at this point.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, everyone, if you have not listened to Tutors Dynasty Podcast, please go right now to wherever you listen to podcasts, go and find it.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Rebecca Larson, she's incredible and she is the guru of of tutors and um has again talked to anybody who's anyone.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's been just an honor to have you on the show and and give you know, giving me this time to interview you and hear all about Thomas Seymour.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I and again, you've changed my mind on him.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm gonna look at him in a brand new light.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Megan.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: This has been so much fun.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: I always love talking to Thomas, but it makes my day to know that I've opened your eyes a little bit to him.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much, and uh, we'll talk soon.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.