Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 364. Addressing Technician Shortages & Oil Analysis

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Episode 364. Addressing Technician Shortages & Oil Analysis · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Trevor: welcome to another community meetup. I was talking to Andrew this week. Had a big week, same with you, Eric. All of you, continue to push the mark forward with refrigeration and, and helping your customers out. I'd love to dive into a little bit on Andrew this week that we had a few chats on, on how you're helping some people on your team. Now you're like full EEMS but also you, you were mentioned to me that you're down a guy right now or you're gonna be down a guy.
• 0:01
  Yeah. It's just, that's just the industry is, we all know that we're having a shortage of technicians out here in the field, and it's just gonna be, become more and more known I guess, for that.
• 0:02
  I just want to know what's going on because I want to do the best I can and it can't, and. And now I'm bothering you and I can tell you don't want to answer. So the, just getting the support system in the trades, which I know that's where we're at, where we're leaning towards and that's where we're headed.
• 0:03
  But phone call away can be a. You know what I mean? And it depends who you're phone calling to as well. There's lots of situations there's lots of situations we're gonna get in to over the next few years where it's gonna be tough on lead technicians. But like you said, I think it's, we need to train more, help, share that knowledge, teach people faster, and a lot of people say, well, you can't learn supermarket refrigeration fast.
• 0:04
  Yeah, exactly. I mean that, that is going to help technicians want just even just stay in the trade. Because back when I first started I went through a, a college, went through trade school in two years and then got out and into the trade and started working.
• 0:05
  And I think, I think we are better together hands down, and that's how we're going to really move. And that's what we're doing here at Refrigeration Mentor is is building a group of people that love the industry, wanna help, and we are here for you guys. And I think that's so awesome. I'm so glad to be a part of that because that's exactly what we need here and that's what we're doing.
• 0:06
  They feel like, 'cause it is a, it's a, it can be a lonely job. We're by ourselves in a van for 12 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year sometimes, so it can, it can get that you feel like you're isolated. So, but those older technicians are more experienced technicians. They felt supported.
• 0:07
  So we have to train more people than we actually have the capacity to do at the moment. So that's, that's one issue. But what I see over here on our side is that the companies are much more like, a, a unit. So you are not a service guy here and a service guy over here, but the companies are more like a unit and people often go out in teams.
• 0:08
  It wasn't like they were 15 or 20 years into trade and we were learning together. But I think a lot of that conversation was what really helped, having those conversations. So, and it's gonna be different for people that do install versus service versus startup because it's, there's different dynamics.
• 0:09
  And I think this is how we stores run into big issues. You know what I mean? You got a lot of hands in the pot and when something goes wrong, it's not as a team effort. It's like pointing fingers. I hear it all the time. It's like, well, this wasn't done right. Or this was put in the wrong place or the, so it's, that's one of the things.
• 0:10
  They want to, they want to, they don't, they like giving out that knowledge. So, so most of them anyway, that I, that I know in the refrigeration and they wanna share that knowledge. So it, hopefully it'll help down the road because they took 30 years to gain all this knowledge. So how, how, how, how can we. Get that knowledge and share it out.
• 0:11
  Erik: I think one of the big issues is, is that ion is not really sexy in the public. You, you got, you got your, you got your electricians and your carpenters or whatever.
• 0:12
  Erik: no, no, no. Not at all. But, but, but it's, it's a highly specialized job actually, and you'd have to have, it's really broad knowledge about things, about mechanics, about electronics, about control systems and, and just how buildings work.
• 0:13
  It was a 44 code, its a low pressure switch, inducer fan not running. So I just held it in and then I touched the little dial and the inducer fan wasn't running. And I'm like, okay, so either the fan's out or the capacitor's done, that's why this, the low pressure switch wasn't making. So I went and grabbed my, my meter, went back downstairs, pulled the plug off and just ed out the inducer fan motor.
• 0:14
  Yeah, absolutely. Just to trend back to the industry and people as far as new techs go into the industry, I think it's important for them to kind push.
• 0:15
  So doing a little bit of yourself research on the issues that you got going on or the problems or whatever. Piece you're working on goes a long ways too. So I've always preached, I've always said, 15 minutes a day on a new component or something that you're working on goes so far as far as your own personal knowledge.
• 0:16
  It's not gonna give you the answer all the time. And it might point you in the wrong direction sometimes, but as it gets better and better, it's going to help, help us. I think one of the things is, is that. As we continue on and evolve in industry, I'm hoping, and I, I think it is, we're gonna make it easier for the next gen generation.
• 0:17
  Like we talk about in our supermarket, our CO2 programs, Andrew, is that we need, you really need to understand how it's supposed to work to be able to troubleshoot. And I think that's one of the big things is where people get frustrated or maybe even don't want to do it, like are not interested in, is because they go in and they don't know what to do, where to start.
• 0:18
  Because like you said, there's just so much to learn. Not every people, you can't just say, Hey, go fix that, and then expect them to fix it without any support or guidance or whatever. So, yeah, no, it's, it's, it's super important to, to have that. And I, and, and I'm seeing it now, so.
• 0:19
  It's long hours, it's heavy equipment. But if you're smart about it, kinda like you Andrew, you sent me some pictures there a few weeks ago and you guys did a couple of six D or six cylinder compressor. Four and six cylinder compressor. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to lift that with another guy, like 300 pound compressors. Us on both sides trying to carry this stuff up a stair, it was crazy, crazy stuff where didn't know the difference. Now if we can teach them how to work a lot smarter, where you're like, here, I got this chain hoist and I'm, I'm doing it with all, all devices. Where man, I, there was lots of times that I didn't really, not to it, I would just slug away.
• 0:20
  Like, and I didn't work on CO2 when I was a technician in the field. I, I've worked on lots of 'em afterwards, have the trainers and pull note oil separator filters and liquid line filters and changing valves and stuff like that. But I wasn't actually doing it as a service thing, I was just doing it as a trainer and building lab equipment and stuff like that.
• 0:21
  No, exactly. And then just going back to this industry where you can get hurt. Yeah. When I was younger, I just, I just grabbed those compressors and hiked them up the stairs or whatever it needed to be out of the van, into the van. Really it took a, it took me a huge accident. I ended up hurting.
• 0:22
  And, I had an apprentice with me, so I showed him all the mechanical advantages we can do without just fully muscling it into, into place. And it asking for help too, when we have to load it into a van or whatever we needed to do. It's amazing, like, 'cause I would just say, oh, we don't need anybody. Just, when you're younger you just, you think you're Superman.
• 0:23
  I think one of, one of the things is, is that there's so many options that you can do in refrigeration. Not, you can do construction, you can do install, you can do service, you can do sales, you can do project management, you can do service manager, director level. There's so many roles, em, EMS, like, controls.
• 0:24
  But I think it goes a long way just showing little tips and tricks that you do all the time. Andrew, and same with you Eric. I know you're doing a startup now. You know what I mean? I'm sure a contractors there and you're teaching them, you know what I mean? And I, we haven't even talked about it, but I bet you, like we talked about it many times before, it's like you're trying to share that knowledge.
• 0:25
  So all these things we go through with the customer on site with, with this technicians. With his maintenance guys and his service guys and installers. So, as many people, the customer could get onsite and I can train the better because the next time they buy a unit, they know maybe 80% of all the, all the things you need to do.
• 0:26
  At least over here. They learn it in school how to do all that. But still, there's a long way from learning about it in school and actually using it on your own. So I think the biggest hurdle is maybe being a little bit afraid of, of doing something wrong. So, and, and basically systems un, unless you, unless you physically cut the high pressure pipes, it won't, it won't bite you, right?
• 0:27
  That's, that's maybe the biggest the biggest step. And then of course, look through that, the fact that yes, this is high pressure. It potentially has a lot of energy that can be released, but all the components are mentioned for it, so why worry about it if you, if you are really worried about the high pressure gauges, I, I used to say to people, it just place your thumb over the last digit and then you're back to normal prices.
• 0:28
  Erik: And it's those, those cars, those guys, they, they, they, they, they know exactly how far you can go, how, how far you can push that car.
• 0:29
  I, I don't because lots of, because I see it online, I read lots of these posts. Why they don't, why supermarket, refrigeration's the worst thing and all this stuff. But you go be a a, a midnight, custodian could be the worst job in the world, but that could be a great job too. You know what I mean? There's lots of benefits of, of it, so, or, or sitting at a desk, you, there's lots of benefits of doing your nine to five at a desk, but there's a lot of things that are not great about it. You know what I mean? So there's trade offs for every role that's out there. Like how do you, ma do the things that make, make it worth it, and I think that's what refrigeration is. We can, you can make lots of money. You can travel around the world. Like Andrew, Andrew lived in multiple places. Eric travels all around the world doing startups. So these are the things that you can benefit. Sometimes you have to, there are sacrifices in every, every role, every job.
• 0:30
  I, I, I ask people all the time and like, I'm in refrigeration, but I was surprised. So at Thanksgiving, I was at a Turkey dinner was a fundraiser, and, one of the ladies that was serving the food, she seen my shirt and my sweater and said, refrigeration mentor. She's like, you're in refrigeration. My husband did it for 30 years and he loved it and it helped our family and our kids.
• 0:31
  If you're listening to this or watching this 'cause it's, this is what we're trying to do. We're trying to help fast track your knowledge, help fast track you feel comfortable so you're not stressed out. But I wanna dive into some technical stuff now, and Eric probably, you'll probably have some good stuff to, to share with this, but over the last couple years I've been doing a lot of lots of CO2 trainings and reading a lot of the manuals and like from advance or, and from all the other manufacturers in their, their, in their literature or Bitzer or Copeland or, or Dore in their literature.
• 0:32
  He is, he's, he's such a great guy. He always helps me out when I ask for questions or ask him questions. But he sent me this one from Rezo R-E-N-I-S-O. It's kind of like their oils chart. There's many different oils out there, but this was one of their charts for their mineral oils and their alend disease, or their ester, like the poe and peg oils.
• 0:33
  creates havoc everywhere, not just the compressors, but it could be at your metering devices. It could be at the drop leg where it pees up and it gets trapped in the P drop. So then all of a sudden the whole circuit stops working. It, it creates so much issues outside of where just the compressor's at, even at the compressor, it it could destroy your compressor in a hurry.
• 0:34
  But you had a great point there. If you get moisture system, it could freeze up in the EEV or it could you have oil in other parts, it could freeze up the distributor tubes and you're not getting any flow, like if you get it. So, so there, so this is why they give a list of the maximum parts per million.
• 0:35
  Erik: I have the most experience with, with CO2 systems. And every time you introduce water, even in, in low PPM values, like, like 200 ppms. And so it will always create an issue because water and CO2 together will create some acid that, that is unavailable. That's just how it works. And again, as, as Andrew said, every time you have some water in your system, and you have to remember how, how, how, how, what's the temperatures in your system.
• 0:36
  Every time you have a high pressure to a low pressure situation where you have a narrowing path, then you also have an exchange of energy and you will freeze up that water and it will block up your valves. At some point, you will block up your filters, your strainers, and your valve plates and whatnot, so you don't want any water in your system.
• 0:37
  So what's the first step is you start with the analysis section. Okay? Right up in the top here, the analysis section, and the first section is moisture parts per million. Now by weight, now you may have different. Numbers, kind of like I just showed you that one example where it's at 150 or 200 parts per million and some oils in there said 500 parts per million of water before their oil starts to, to degrade.
• 0:38
  This example here says about 1 0 5 and you see, whoever did this oil analysis say in-service limits. Of 120. So they're like, oh, well, we're okay at 105. And don't get me wrong, it'd probably be totally fine.
• 0:39
  Trevor: Yep. And it's not like you have to go, and for this example here, it's not like you would have to go and drain the whole oil and take out 10 gallons of oil. They have filter dryers for, that's the purpose of these oil filter dryers that get in and remove that moisture. And remove that moisture.
• 0:40
  So yeah, we don't want anything like that
• 0:41
  Erik: Oh, yes. Oh yes. From and from different sources and different times in, in the lifespan of the unit.
• 0:42
  Either somebody didn't use any, any protective gas when they, when the solar, or they didn't clean up after cutting pipes or whatever happened. So, but, but if it returns, clean, then you also have that as a guarantee to your customer. Say, okay, we have produced a clean system. It has been running now for, let's say a week or something that we draw out the sample because you, you need some time to get things, circulating in system make a run for, for a week or so.
• 0:43
  Because it have to be coming from somewhere component. But you, you don't have iron anywhere else, or at least then you have, maybe you have one of your big vessels that are rusty on the inside or something like, so it's not clean. Probably from, from the, from the manufacturer.
• 0:44
  Trevor: Yeah. And I've, and I've seen that and that that's not only the way to get moisture in the system as well, like I've seen on plates breaking and, water getting in that way. Mm-hmm. And different like, condenser lines breaking and it's raining out or, you know what I mean, filling up a water that way, so, like cracking.
• 0:45
  So higher semis, stokes means sticker oil, lower semis, stokes means thinner oil. And that's why in CO2 you will see higher semi stokes oil. That's why you'll see the 85 Ks or 68 co use, 68 Bitzer. And most all the European manufacturers, I think it's 85. But both can be used in Copelands.
• 0:46
  Erik: Mm. I would, I would guess it's about again, about the temperature range of their application. Because you have, when you have the screws, they are really, really tied together and you have a lot of fixing heat. You also usually have a, a oil cooler on, on screw compressors.
• 0:47
  That slide that I show you before that Giacomo sent me from the res R-E-N-I-S-O was 0.2. Okay. KOH pergram. And this one says 1.54 sevens like, oh man. Like there's a lot of acid in that system. One of the things though about CO2 in the oil is that if the CO2 is present in that oil, when that sample is taken, it will give a false acidity read.
• 0:48
  And so doing some research and they did some research, is that. You need to get that CO2 out of that oil before you do that. Test acid test, a lab analysis test or acid test, you need to get the CO2 out. And there was one video that I seen from sporin and a documentation where they, where they did the test on because they do sell the acid test not the lab analysis, maybe to do a lab analysis, but they said heat it to a hundred degree Celsius or 112 Fahrenheit for 10 minutes or do compressed gas in it for a minute.
• 0:49
  I put it on 'cause and I heated it 'cause that's what they said to do. I did test again and it passed that acid test. So just remember, if you're taking these tests with CO2, you want to heat that oil or get that CO2 out of there before you do the test. Because now if you think, man, I'm 1.54, but it's only supposed to be 0.2, we need to do an oil change like right away.
• 0:50
  Trevor: Yeah. So I'm gonna reach back out, I don't know if they did an oil change or not, but I'm gonna reach back out to the detections, 'cause this was like a year ago, and see if they've done a test again and compare it, 'cause that's a good point.
• 0:51
  Because the big difference is on a, on a, on a, on a big reg, like the, the regs are just been on now. They have like, oh, what is it? It's about 50 or 60 kilos of oil in them. Yeah, yeah. At, at whatever price it is. But, but it, it's, it's not, it is super expensive. It's crazy expensive. So it's much cheaper to just have this oil sample made and, and have it analyzed and then come back to the customer, say, okay I can see.
• 0:52
  This is one of question I get. We, we get, we suggest it, we get all this, but they just don't wanna do the maintenance. And I say, this is what you, what you can do. You go and do one of these tests, it might cost you $200 or $300. This is a, a business expense, okay? But when you bring this and you bring the oil numbers from the manufacturer, you go and show them, this is what the manufacturers, if we're over this, this means this is gonna start to fail.
• 0:53
  Erik: Exactly. And, and you can always present him options when you have, when you have imperial data, empiric data, you can always give him options. Okay. You can see we have these data here.
• 0:54
  Trevor: And that's not only one compressor. That could be one fails at that time, but the other five are damaged.
• 0:55
  One of them. Okay. Whatever. See, they usually, the easiest part is a reservoir because you can isolate that one and then, yeah. And just blow the pressure and take the oil sample and, and not interfere with the rest of the system. But if you have a suspicion, say, okay, you have a bad sounding compressor, or you have previously encountered higher levels on, on your oil samples, then I would, they would draw the, put the oil sample directly from the compressors.
• 0:56
  You know what I mean? So that's, that's a very good point. Because that one that's sounding bad. The oil in the bottom of the something may be a little bit different than the one than what's actually coming outta that reservoir. I love it. I love it. That, that's super helpful. Any final thoughts for for the community?
• 0:57
  Trevor: Yeah, I think that's super important too. Like the, the more training, the better. Like we do training consistently CO2 training every month.
• 0:58
  You know what I mean? But it was, it was. It'll be that much better in the future. Guys, I wanna thank you so much for sharing some of the knowledge, our conversation on talking about what's going on a bit in the, in the industry, and then getting into kind of some of this technical stuff, this oil analysis, it's super important.