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Monday Mini Classics: Grooming 101 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I welcome to Stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I Never Told You, a production of I Heartradio and
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: for today's classic. Unfortunately, we thought we should bring back
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: our episode we did on grooming and what that looks
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: like and how it can manifest because a lot of
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: stuff is happening in the news right now and there's
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of conversation about it, and we are talking
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: about doing We're going to come back and do a
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: whole episode in March probably, but soon soon, but in
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: the meantime, we did want to bring back this classic
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: to help get you prepared.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: We need to do a review.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: We need to do a review.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: So yes, please enjoy this classic episode.
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to Stuff I
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: Never Told You. Today we are.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Once again joined by my good friend Samantha. Hello, Samantha, Hello,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: thank you. Yep you are and you will be back
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: for this the series that we're doing also.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Forever sitting in the corner staring at everyone.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: Yes, doing the grudge.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: This is the second in our series examining trauma and
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: sexual assault in the era of Me Too. And you
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: are a great person to bring in for this because
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: you do you have a history and social work.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: That is my career. Thus far, thus far, thus far.
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  Speaker 4: We put that as a dot dot dot.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: I'm Drincken there. You know.
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  Speaker 1: I love including those because it just adds this layer
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: of mystery and intrigues.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: What is she going to do next?
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  Speaker 3: Dot dot?
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  Speaker 4: I'm going to stay at home and just eat and
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: watch TV. Can someone pay me to do that?
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  Speaker 3: I think there is Yeah, I think you can get
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: paid for that.
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  Speaker 2: I'm sure it's very competitive. Oh, we're going to research
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: this in a bit.
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  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, that's immediately.
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  Speaker 1: Thing we're doing immediately have goals, so quick trigger warning.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: We are talking about grooming and what a what exactly
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: that entails, including specific methods and purposes, and just to
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: kind of prep everyone, to prime everyone. The general definition
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  Speaker 1: of grooming is the act of preparing or training someone
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  Speaker 1: for particular purpose or activity, and oftentimes it involves someone
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: of power, mentoring, training, or intimidating another individual. But in
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: this conversation, we're mostly going to be talking about it
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: in terms of abuse and specifically trigger warnings. We're going
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: to be talking about you sexual assault, molestation and grooming,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: sexual grooming, sexual exportation, human trafficking, bestiality, pedophilia. Most of
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: these were not going to go in depth on, but
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: if it's something that is triggering are difficult for you,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: please put your own health and well being first. And
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: this is something that several of you have written in
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: about and that's been in the news quite a lot
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: lately because as we record this, the R Kelly thing,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: the documentary is really big in the news cycle and
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: grooming is a part of that conversation.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Hashtag mute r Kelly.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: Hashtag mute r Kelly.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: If we look at this whole picture of abuse or
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: of choosing or preparing a victim, grooming is often the
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: first step or a quick second step.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: I suppose a study that.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Came out recently found most people couldn't identify signs of grooming.
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  Speaker 1: So hopefully this episode that we're having can make us
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: all a little more vigilant and aware. I know I
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: learned a lot from researching this one, you.
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: Know, any I was going to add to that that
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  Speaker 4: it is often times hard to see in a victim,
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: which is why a lot of the sites you'll see
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: and a lot of the statistics is to say to
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: focus on the perpetrator, you'll see their actions including the
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: online perpetrators. They are specifics to that which we won't
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: necessarily go into, but that is something to think on too.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's start, as I like to do, with
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  Speaker 1: the definition what is grooming? Author and counselor Eric Marlow
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  Speaker 1: Garrison defines it like this, Grooming is the slow, methodical,
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  Speaker 1: and intentional process of manipulating a person to a point
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  Speaker 1: where they can be victimized. After the perpetrators find their targets,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: they gained trust, and move in from there. The US
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  Speaker 1: Department of Justice Office of Sex Offenders Sentencing defines it
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  Speaker 1: as grooming is a method used by offenders that involves
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  Speaker 1: building trust with a child and the adults around a
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  Speaker 1: child in an effort to gain access to and time
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  Speaker 1: alone with him or her. In extreme cases, offenders may
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  Speaker 1: use threats and physical force to sexually assault or abuse
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  Speaker 1: a child. More common, though, are subtle approaches designed to
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  Speaker 1: build relationships with families. The offender may assume a caring role,
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  Speaker 1: befriend the child, or even exploit their position of trust
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  Speaker 1: and authority to groom the child and or the child's family.
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  Speaker 1: These individuals intentionally build relationships with the adults around a
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  Speaker 1: child or seek out a child who is less supervised
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: by adults in their lives. This increases the likelihood that
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: the offender's time with a child is welcomed and encouraged.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: So we are talking a lot about children and grooming
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  Speaker 1: of children in this episode, but it can happen to anyone.
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: Right, And I think we're going to talk a little more,
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: but you and I discuss the fact that when it
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: comes to domestic violence, that is a type of grooming
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  Speaker 4: as well, because oftentimes they will seek women who have
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: already been through specific situations traumas in their life, maybe
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: have grown up with domestic violence in their lives, and
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  Speaker 4: then they kind of hone in on these women and
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: specifically pick them because they are easier victims. So obviously
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: that has a lot to do with sexual abuse.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: And it is often the precursor to the crime of
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: sexual abuse. But sexual grooming is a standalone crime in itself,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: but it is hard to prove and you'll see why
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: that is in a minute.
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  Speaker 4: So as we're talking about the fact that, yes, it
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: can be specifically to sexual abuse of children, we're going
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: to talk about all the facts about domestic violence, as
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: I had previously said, but also if you look at
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: gangs and cults, they kind of.
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  Speaker 2: Do the same thing.
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  Speaker 4: They look for individuals who lack family and therefore need
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: something to hold onto, and they groom these people into
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  Speaker 4: mentoring and oftentimes involved a way. So if you look
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: at gang members and you look at the fact that
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: a lot of teenagers have been recruited for lack of
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  Speaker 4: better terms, they are looking for by the family figures
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  Speaker 4: and this.
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  Speaker 2: Is where they go to seek it.
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  Speaker 4: And on top of that, they're being taught how to
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: make money or how to do things without going the
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  Speaker 4: hard route as in like education or building family trust, counseling.
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  Speaker 4: In all of that, it kind of pulls away from
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: that and they think this is what they want. Same
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: thing as pedophiles. It's not just a pedophilic act, but
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: something done out of dominance. And honestly, while we're talking
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: about pedophiles, let's be specific as the differences of pedophiles
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: and child molesters, because I think that's not talked about enough.
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  Speaker 4: Pedophiles can be sexually aroused by previous best children and
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: oftentimes form emotional attachment to their victims. If you look
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  Speaker 4: at Nambla as an example, they really feel like this
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  Speaker 4: is another form of sexuality that have being a relationship
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: from a young boy where an older man should not
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  Speaker 4: be stopped if it's gentle, and they truly believe that
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  Speaker 4: this is a relationship that people are not willing to see,
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  Speaker 4: which when we talk about the fact that children do
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: not have the option to consent because they are not
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  Speaker 4: able to say no and understand why they can say no,
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  Speaker 4: which is also an important part about having parents teach
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  Speaker 4: their children it's okay to not to be touched, not
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: to be tickled, and say I don't want to hug you,
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  Speaker 4: which is very important that we talked about more and
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  Speaker 4: more as of late, and I know a lot of
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  Speaker 4: women and a lot of parents have become very aware
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  Speaker 4: of this and start to teach their children these things.
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  Speaker 4: But Nambla has this whole fixation that I'm in love,
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  Speaker 4: he's in love with me, and I can take care
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  Speaker 4: of them, which is disturbing on his own as where
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  Speaker 4: child molestors and abusers use child for sexual stimulation and
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  Speaker 4: could be more about opportunity than need. So when I
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  Speaker 4: say that, I often see Pierre and peer victim so
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  Speaker 4: youth on youth crimes where youth will actually sexual abuse
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  Speaker 4: another youth may be similar to their age, and not
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  Speaker 4: because they prefer that child, but because it is an opportunity,
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  Speaker 4: and they're still considered child molestor and a sex offender
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  Speaker 4: out on top.
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  Speaker 2: Of that.
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  Speaker 1: And this conversation, and we're going to talk about this
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: a little bit more, but it also we can bring
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  Speaker 1: in exploitation and trafficking in this whole thing. The perpetrator
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  Speaker 1: of grooming can be just about anyone. From retired special
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  Speaker 1: Agent with the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit Kenneth V. Lanning quote,
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  Speaker 1: pedophiles span the full spectrum, from saints to monsters. In
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: spite of this fact, over and over again, pedophiles are
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  Speaker 1: not recognized, investigated, charged, convicted, or sent to prison simply
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  Speaker 1: because they are nice guys.
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  Speaker 4: As in fact, my experiences in working with sex offenders,
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  Speaker 4: it's common to see a sex offender being the most
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: cooperative and workable group of offenders. They majority of these
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  Speaker 4: types of defenders are not necessarily violent and often very
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: aware of their surroundings and how to stay under the radar.
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  Speaker 4: You could also say that for female adults with younger
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  Speaker 4: men or the younger teenage boys, they are not volatile,
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  Speaker 4: but they use their sexuality as well as their dominance
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  Speaker 4: and or power to get control over these youths and
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  Speaker 4: oftentimes somehow convince these teenage boys slash younger boys that
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  Speaker 4: they are not victims, but they are the loves of
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  Speaker 4: their lives. They're their boyfriends, which is a manipulation in itself,
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: and honestly, not to make you paranoid, but just to
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: give empower you with information. I think by now people
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: are aware of all the shocking statistics of human trafficking,
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: so I kind of want to jump into that. And
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: for us in Atlanta, that's a really big issue. Atlanta
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: has one of the highest statistics when it comes to
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: victims and trafficking, and I think that has a lot
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: to do with the international airport that we have. We
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: have heartspelt, so a lot of international flights through there,
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: so people are easily accessible or lights are easily accessible wherever, as.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: Well as our big events.
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  Speaker 4: And with that, I want to talk a little bit
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: about sea sick victims, which means commercially sexually exploited children,
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: which you're going to hear me say that acronym a lot,
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: and you probably may have already heard it and not
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: realized what it is. But what it comes down to
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: is here we're defining children or youth under the age
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: of eighteen, specifically victims, about how they're found and how
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: they're picked out, and we're going to talk a little
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: more about what exactly that looks like the whole human trafficking.
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: I know that's a pretty big word, and everybody's become
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: very aware of it.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: If we go, if we broaden out to grooming. We
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: don't have any solid numbers on it because it's something
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: that is surrounded by a shame here, guilt or not
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: realizing that a form of abuse is taking place. Numbers
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: we do have from two thousand and six indicate that
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: one in four girl girls and one in five boys
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: will be sexually abused before they turn eighteen. Some estimates
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: put the number of child sex offenders as low as
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: five percent. Again, it's one of those things that isn't
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: reported on very often, like it's underreported this crime. So
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: probably numbers are higher than what we're saying, and they're
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: already pretty high.
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: And that has a lot to do with children don't
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: know how to report, they're not taught how to report one, two,
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: they feel like they're unsafe to try to actually report,
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: or they do it way later in time in which
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: the statute of limitations are gone, and that varies from
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: state to state, which is unfortunate. And a lot of
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: times they're discouraged by members that are close to them
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: to not report. So all of these things have factors
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: into why it is so underreported m.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: HM and generally, grooming starts as friendship. The groomer learns
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: what the potential target likes, what they dislike, thinks that
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: they can use later.
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  Speaker 3: Social media can play a big part of this.
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  Speaker 1: The groomer can learn a lot about the person from
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: what they post, and they can use that information to
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: form a friendship. That's one reason why being careful about
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: what we post, especially for younger people, is always, always
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: always recommended. From the stuff you post on social media,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: someone could start a conversation about your interests. They might
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: mention someone you know as if they know that person too,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: or in the case of a power disparity in terms
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: of maybe a job, a coach or a teacher, or
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: a doctor or a priest, because there already is one
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: inherent a power dynamic, if a minor is involved, mentioning
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: the power that they.
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: Have right, I mean we can just talk about the
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: fact you can lose your job. Now if you post
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: something that may not have anything to do with your job,
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: you can lose scholarships, you can lose anything, in which
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: we try to tell everyone, don't be dumb. You will
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: be found out if it's on the internet, even once
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: it can be found again. I know that that's one
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: of the same things that we talk about with sharing
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: your location. That is beyond dangerous because oftentimes these offenders
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: are at the level that they will stalk you. I
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: think the recent case Close Jaden Close, is that her name.
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: I'm going to have to go back and look at
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: this who just recently work was kidnapped her after her
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: parents were shot. Oh oh yeah, he stalked her and
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: it had nothing to do with social media, but just
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: the level at some that some.
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  Speaker 2: Perpetrators will go to.
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: He stalked her from a school bus to the home,
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: not knowing who she was, not knowing who they were,
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: and was willing to commit murder and kidnapping to get
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: to her, which is a rude awakening. It happens since
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: they were Therefore, things like location tagging and all that
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: can be very seriously dangerous, which needs to be discussed
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: with your youths, teenagers everyone.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've always that scary moment when the at least
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: for me, it was a little frightening. I've had it
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: happened a couple of times, but when the lift driver
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: is like, oh, do you live here alone and you're like, oh.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: No, this is my friend's house.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I remember being in high school when social media was
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: relatively new, my marching band director saying that you should
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: never trust someone who comes up to you and says
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: something like I know so and so, and they said
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: I should give you a ride or something like that
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: because they could find that stuff out.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: From social media. And I remember specifically at the time,
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: being kind of thrown by that idea. But he, I
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: mean he was right.
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah. As a nanny, I was really overprotective due to
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: having worked as an investigator in child abuse and sexual abuse,
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: and would oftentimes intervene if anything looks suspicious. And I
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: still think children under sixteen should not be on social media.
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: I was very upset with my brother and sister when
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: they are allowed their teens or not empteens eleven to
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: twelve year old to get on social media and reminding
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: them this is not safe. You think you have control
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: over the phones, over the social media, you don't know
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: what's going on.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: You will never.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: Catch up to the new ways or fads or whatever
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: that is happening that you think you can be protective.
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: I know, Kick came out kik for a while, and
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: that was one of the scariest things to me because
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: it was those photo messages that would send back and
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: I actually had a case where a kid sent let's
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: just stay in an indecent picture to another kid and
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: then it got spread all around and we came back
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: and I was like, you know, this is a felony, right,
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: this is child molestation, this is child porn, distribution of
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: child porn. And they didn't understand that because they're all children.
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: But it doesn't have anything to do with age the
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: fact that you're spreading this. But it's such a scary
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: thing that I am overly cautious and oftentimes will make
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: sure that they understand this is not as safe as
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: you think. I remember I fought with my employer about
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: getting these kids' phones, and they did. They kind of
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: stepped up to it because they used the kid version
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: and then another version. But then we started talking about
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: the PlayStations, how they're easily accessible to Internet and oftentimes
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: they use that as an outlet for social media.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's a whole scary thing.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah it is.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: And I mean I could do I could speak for
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: hours and hours about the harassment I received through a
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: gaming system.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: That's a different episode. And it sucks.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: This whole thing sucks because once again, the onus is
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: on us to prevent someone from doing something terrible.
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: And someone who's dedicated the majority of my adult life
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: to this is taxing, and it's never ending. It seems
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: like I'm just digging a hole, hoping that I'm.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Kind of helping a little bit.
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: And then you turn around and there's something new, there's
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: something different, there's something more.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: And another thing to keep in mind, the parent, adult authority, figures,
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: support group, whatever it is, of the target are often
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: groomed as well to progressively accept escalating levels of seemingly
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: innocent physical contact and isolation as normal. And this is
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: one of the ways something like Larry Nasser happens, which
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I read in many places like that situation was just
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: the perfect thing for grooming or r Kelly, I knew
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: a guy who was really active in the homeless, transgend
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: teen community, and he was doing something like this, and
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: I think he was also a government official.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: He's not anymore. He's in jail. It should be as
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: he should be.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: And as I've said before, outside of this, I do
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: acting and unsettling amount of times I often see a
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: post to alert people that a predator is asking for
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: pictures or videos of child actors under the guise of
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: an audition are getting a role. It's disturbing how often
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: we get into from our agent.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: This guy is not for real. Don't send him any
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: pictures of your children.
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: I think the taboo or the stereotype was the creepers
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: come around offering you modeling jobs, and it turns out
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: it's not really modeling jobs, and whether they're trying to
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: just get nude pictures or assault someone or do something
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: even more dangerous. That people have started to become a
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: little more, a little more aware with hope. After all
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: the Lifetime specials that I've seen, yeah they're all dangerous,
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: that's what I figured out. But this is a way
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: to get to you and the kids by promising something bigger, money, power, fame,
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: all of those things are Kelly. That's exactly what he did.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: He takes these fifteen sixteen year olds fourteen year old,
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: if you're a lee, I guess and promise, I'm going
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: to build you a future. I'm going to make you
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: a star, and then starts doing the emotional and physical
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: and mental abuse with them in order to train them
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: and subdue them into his power race.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: And that's that power dynamic again.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: And we're going to talk more about that after a
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor.
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: After this friendship has been established, so we were talking
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: about that earlier. Just establishing friendship and or some kind
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: of nicety. The target views the groomer as a friend,
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: a mentor, or a romantic interest.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Their guard is down.
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: The groomer might start offering gifts or favors and the
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: goal is to make the target feel like.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: They owe the groom or something. They usually start.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: Small, maybe keeping a promise, but build over time.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: And I have some personal experience that I'm going to share,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: but don't worry, I'm not going into gory detail.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: That wouldn't be.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Good for anybody, but for me, I have had what
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: I call four periods of sexual abuse in my life,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: and the hallmark in all of them, the common thread
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: was vulnerability and that power dynamic. They all involved authority figures.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: The first two times it was someone my parents trusted
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: and I trusted because I'm a kid and they're in
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: our authority role in my life. But on the silver
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: lining side of this awful situation, they ended. They both
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: ended fairly quickly because I told someone. But the first
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: time it was a preschool teacher and he had a motorcycle.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: That's what I remember the most.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: He had a motorcycle and I wanted to ride it,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: and he offered, like maybe one day, I'll let you
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: write it, but.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: First let's do this and this and then.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: And he also had a gold stars and I wanted
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: to be a good girl, and I get these gold stars.
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's exactly something that often happens. They give you,
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: they see the person or the victim, and then they
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: use exactly what is needed for that individual victim. So
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: it's not just an overall blanket. It is tailored to
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: each individual victim. And often, like you, you want to
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: please someone, and you see this. And we could also
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: talk about the attachment issues and family life and or
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: previous abuse, because oftentimes I've seen children of abuse, as
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: you will show, are targeted again. They're the likelihood of
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: them being targeted again as a victim goes exponentially higher.
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: And I don't know how they know, but they know,
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: and I say they is, and the offenders, the perpetrators
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: that this is someone that you can groom or may
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: have already been groomed, and so therefore they can tailor
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: it once again in a different manner.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like a predator's instinct.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: And after this whole situation, my family moved for other
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: reasons too, but in part because of this. And I
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: don't blame my parents, but they didn't really explain it
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: to me. And again I think it's a horrible difficult
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: conversation to have with your young child. But all I
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: knew was we were moving away from my friends because
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: I had said something. And the second time, I was
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: still really young, and it was a friend of a family,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: and he definitely played up the whole like boys will
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: be boys. Your value is in how desirable you are.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: This is a good thing. Don't be a cry baby,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: don't be so weak. And I felt this pressure not
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: to say anything that would ruin his life. And I
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: already felt that I was lesser and that I should
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: stay quiet and not rock the boat.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: And I was eight, and.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Both of these men, yeah, they knew what to say
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: and how to earn my chrest and how to keep
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: me from saying anything.
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: Right, And I was going to add with that. That's
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: part of the thing I see in a lot of
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: victims is that at the very beginning, they're fairly empathetic,
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: and therefore they wear the guilt on themselves, which is
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: kind of why everything's underreported. And as we look at
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: more the me Too era, even for older women, adult
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: women who have gone through the situation, whether it's rape
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: or sexual abuse or whatever as an adult, you see
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: that same statistics. I don't want to ruin this person's life.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: He's a good man, but he is a good They
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: are a good person, but they only did this to me.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: I'm the only victim. It's okay.
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: So so many times a lot of the victims or
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: survivors are willing to take on his shame, which is absurd.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: And part of that is also because people don't want
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: to hear it, and so therefore it's easier to be
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: quiet and say never mind, don't worry about.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: It, right.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: That's something I still catch myself like speaking in that way,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: like I don't want to ruin his life.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: He ruined his life.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: The third and longest phase of my abuse, it started
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: as a building of trust. Both of my parents and
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: my older brother were hospitalized, which was traumatic in excelf
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: and I had no idea when they were coming back.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I was a teenager in a house by myself with
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: my little brother, and I was so scared. I was
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: in this vulnerable state, and these two men knew that,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: and they did say something along the lines of like
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: my parents had sent them, and I was like, okay,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: but I was really suspicious and uncomfortable. But I was
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: grateful that I had some kind of help in this situation,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: and even kind of flattered because they would tell me how.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: Mature I was or how pretty I was for my age.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: But I had a turning point and I realized, like,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: I really don't like these people. I don't want them
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: near my little brother. I told them I didn't want
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: them coming around anymore, and they became extremely violent enough
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: so that I never ever wanted.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: That to happen again.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: It scared the hell out of me, and they threatened
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: me and my little brother. That's why the situation lasted
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: so long, because I didn't know what to do, and
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: obviously so much of my life suffered because of it.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: My friend suffered, my mental health, my physical health. But
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I felt like I had to be the strong one
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: for my brother. And every night I just remember laying
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: awake listening because his room was next to mine.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: I was just not sleep because I was so so scared.
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: Right, you are a protector, and actually, any what you
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: experienced is something many of the perpetrators use as a
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: grooming tactic as well as that they single out one
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: child out of a group of peers or even in
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: a group of siblings, or they specifically target loners for
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: the lack of a better term, and will use threats
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: or rewards as a way to maintain their holds over
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: these victims. And that includes I'm going to hurt your brother,
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: I'm going to hurt your mother, I'm going to hurt
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: your father, things that they know you are worried about.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: And they're not.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: Afraid to use these tactics to get what they want
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: because in the end, they have the power, and that's
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: more gratifying than the end result of what could happen.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: And it works because children believe adults, and that's part
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: of the problem. We want them to understand adults, we
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: want them to respect adults, but it's the same time,
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: do you differentiate respecting the right adult?
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean these are difficult.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: There are questions, and they're difficult conversations to have, but
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: we do need to be having them.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: So when the groomer becomes.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: A part of the target's daily life, maybe shows up
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: at events that the target is attending alone, this builds
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: that trust and eventually, when the groomer is feeling confident,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: they'll start asking for these favors back, and they usually
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: start as a non sexual favor, and then they become
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: progressively more sexual in nature, maybe watching pornography together, touching,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: sending sexual materials.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: And another hallmark of grooming is secrecy.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: For obvious reasons, the groomer tries to keep this relationship
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: under wraps, especially in the early stages, and in order
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: to try to ensure silence from their victims, they will
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: say something like, don't tell anyone I did do this favor,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: because they'll be jealous and everyone will want me to
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: do the same thing for them. The key is flattery
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: and to make the target feel special. At the same time,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: the groomer starts to distance the target from people in
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: their life that could help them. Once the physical aspect
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: of the relationship is established, then shame plays a huge
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: role in the silence, along with things like force. Are
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: these threats, Separating the victim from their support group makes
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: controlling them easier. Treating the target as a co conspirator
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: is also.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: A part of this. Yeah, one of my abusers was
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: really good at that.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: He would say stuff like everything you are I made
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: you as if I owed him a big favor, and
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: I would willingly go back to him because I didn't
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: know what else to do. But I knew not going
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: back to him would make him very angry be a
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: very bad thing for me.
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: And this is where I would step in and say, remember,
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: guilt and shame and loneliness are major emotions that offenders
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: know can be easily manipulated. They want to use this
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: as a tactic to silence you. Guilt and shame we
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: have on our own pretty easily. Yeah, I could list
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: off all the exhameful things I did today. I'm not
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: going to because that's going to be three episodes long.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Unless you guys want to hear it. I'm just plain.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: But this is why.
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: As a social worker we advise guardians and parents that
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: they watch out for the physical signs of abuse because
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: you're not going to necessarily know what's happening. These offenders, groomors,
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: perpetrators are really good in putting themselves in the middle
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: of a situation at the perfect time. And it has
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: nothing to do with your weakness. It has nothing to
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: do with their weakness. It's just they find the opportunity
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: and they take it. And again, like I said before,
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: these offenders slash perpetrators, they seem like nice guys or
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: nice women, nice people in general. They seem like they're
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: coming in to help you. They want to make your
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: life better. And this is the tactic that they know
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: to use. They can't just come in. There are the
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: aggressive ones. Let's talk about that. I realized that is
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: Jamie Close, not Jayden who I was talking about previously,
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: which he just came in with his mental health issues
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: and just drug her out. That's more unusual, which is
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: why we don't hear about that as much. But when
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: we do, it's like, oh, my gosh, what happened. What
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: we don't hear about is the years and years and
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: years and years of abuse that they had from the uncle,
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: or the years and years and years and abuse of
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: the neighbor or the pastor or their coach, you know,
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: stuff like that. That's when you start realizing, oh, my gosh,
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: I didn't know. And that's also when you start hearing
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: he was such a nice guy. I thought he was
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: helping us. And that's part of the problem in which
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: we can't always see what is happening with a child
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: until after the fact. So some of the signs, and
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: I know we're going to go into this a little deeper.
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: I know you have a laundry list, awesome, so we
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: can take notes. But just to throw that out there,
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: some of the signs would include withdrawal and isolation from
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: the victim, bed wedding, early sexualization, which is something that
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: I don't think people realize enough because they think it's just.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Funny if they say something ridiculous.
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: But when you start realizing what's happening, or at least
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: sexualization is a big, big part of it, and you've
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: got to figure out where they're learning this from, because
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: either way because they are so young, they they may
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: act on it in a way that you don't want
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: to know about, whether it's with their cousin, whether it's
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: with a dog, whether it's with you know, whatever's there
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: for their opportunity. So that's something that I always talk about,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: is like, you need to see how they're acting out.
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: If they're acting out, you need to be concerned and
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: start asking why are they acting out? And it may
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: be as simple as they watch the wrong show. Yeah,
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: and then we always talk about regression as well, which
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: they go back and start more and more childlike maybe
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: you know, thumb sucking, start crying more, all of those things.
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: But any like I said, I know we're going to
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: go into more of the details, but just to throw
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: that out there once again.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: Right and grooming.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Another part that that makes it difficult is that it
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: can be hard to separate from romance because there is
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: this slow build and it can seem innocuous at first.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: The target and other people in the target's life can
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: mistake it as romance.
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: Right, And this is where I want to come back
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: into talking about human trafficking SLASH, domestic human trafficking and
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: c SEC that commercially sexually exploited children because oftentimes most
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: of the targets believe they're going into something on their
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: own with their free will, thinking that they're coming into
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: a relationship and or a living situation that's benefiting them both. Oftentimes,
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: children who are part of these circumstances happen to be
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: kids who are seeking something better, Like we're talking about
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: that whole isolating being alone, bad family situation, and honestly,
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: with the LGBTQI generation is even more prominent in that
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: group because they're already feeling isolated, if they're being shunned
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: by their family, they're trying to find someone to help
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: them to seek out what they need.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: So we're going to go back and.
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: Talk about the fact that child's sex trafficking SLASH the
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: prostitution of children, which is defined as child sex tourism
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: involving commercial sexual activity, the commercial product production I'm so sorry,
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: the commercial production of child pornography, and the online transmission
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: of a video of which child is engaged in sexual
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: activity in exchange for anything of value. And I think
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: I wanted to bring this up at this time because
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: what we often see is that children who are manipulated
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: with this type of situation, believe, like we said, that
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: they are in a romantic relationship and see this as
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: a normal way of living.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: And getting money.
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: I've had to have many conversations with a lot of
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: my females. My girls who go into a situation will
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: not say that they are victims, even though they know
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: that they have had to have sex with older men
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: and give them money to their boyfriend quote unquote, or
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: they get tagged with the name of the boyfriend as
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: a way of a marker, or they are having to
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: pay back for food or drugs that they're giving by
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: using drugs. So oftentimes I don't think people see that
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: as a thing. And this is why we have this
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: conversation of charging teenage girls or teenage boys as prostitutes
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: is problematic because oftentimes what you see is there is,
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: for the lack of better terms, a pimp, flash a
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: perpetrator who is pushing this from behind, threatening her, telling
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: her she's going to be alone all of these situations
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: because they are being forced to But we don't see that.
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: We just see, and I say we, as the government
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: sometimes until recently, saw that as these kids are committing
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: a crime, we're going to give them a prostitution charge
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: or soliciting charge, which is absurd as in fact, we're
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: talking about that case in Tennessee where she finally was
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: given to clemency, grained clemency when she shot the man
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: who was pimping her out at sixteen. And I'm not
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: gonna lie. I know that what happened was great because
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: the governor finally released her A granted that. However, he
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: also said she did a heinous crime, but she's ready
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: to make up for it, and that's I have a
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: problem with that. She did a crime, yes, but I
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: have a feeling as a person who's worked in this field,
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: to her, it was survival and should we be punishing
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: her to that level and still using her as a
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: stigma as a murderer when she was maybe defending herself
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: or trying to get out of the life without losing
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: her life.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: One warning sign, according to experts, is the potential groomers
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: insistence to meet up beyond what might be considered normal
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: and potentially utilizing threats or guilt to get the person
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: to show up. Since the groomer has put a lot
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: of time and maybe money into grooming, they want to
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: check in on their progress in the person. Experts also
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: point out that the target usually has some sense at
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: something is not quite right, a feeling that isn't there
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: in consensual romance, like.
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: Right, actually, I know, like I said, As I've spoken
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: with many girls coming out of that situation, they will
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: tell you at what point they were like, this is
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: not what I thought. Yeah, there is that moment, whether
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: it's their first client and or the fifth client, or
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: when you hit her, or when they you know, or
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: when she demanded things. There are moments that they have
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: like I didn't want this. I thought I was in
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: love and I thought we were in this together.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: And another thing is that grooming can take place completely online,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: coursing someone to take part in online sexual activities like
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: sending pictures or videos, having sexual conversations. Then the groomer
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: might tighten their control by threatening to send these things
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: to the target's friends and family, and a groomer just
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: they might message one hundred children at a time like
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: just seeing what sticks.
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: And this is again that shame factor. I've got something
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: of yours. If you don't do this, I'm going to
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: embarrass you and out you as a deviant or whatever whatnot.
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: And again I do want to mention even for miners,
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: they cannot send these sexually explicit pictures because in the law,
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: you're sending child pornography. Therefore, you can be arrested for
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: a very sensive amount of time because we know the
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: GBI for where we are, and FBI see this as
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: a heinous crime now and they will come at you
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: at full force.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Right and kind of a strange aside, but it kept
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: coming up when I was researching this. This movie called
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: show Dogs, which was a children's movie that came out earlier.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: In twenty eighteen about I don't really know much about
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: the show Dog scene, but.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: It's about that, and it actually got recut prior to
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: its theatrical release because of a scene where a character
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: was touching the dog's jenitles and telling him to go
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: to his in place, and people pointed out that this
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: is something that happens during grooming, telling a child to
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: pretend you're somewhere else and.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: To throw it out there.
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: I have seen cases where children who have been sexually abused,
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: severely abused, use pets and dogs as their sexual outlets.
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: So beastiality is not as unheard of for this type
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: of community. Because as I said before, when opportunity is there,
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: they're going to try it.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: And when listener Emma wrote about this a while ago,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: she suggested we could extrapolate this whole thing out to
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: a societal level to how we groom and sexualize young
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: women in the United States and probably a lot of
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: the Western world. And I mean, in my personal examples,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: the fact that these men told me I was beautiful
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: or that I was sexy. They they knew that that's
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: how I saw my value, and they knew they could
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: use that to manipulate me. Are you, Samantha, you brought
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: up religion. How we could bring it out to that.
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: When we talk about grooming or bringing someone up, or
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: making someone in a certain way. When you look at religion,
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: not all religions, but when you look at some religions,
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: they specifically target women to be the subservient person, and
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: so that subservient person becomes a specific representation of a
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: good person. So like when I say, I'm struggling with
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: this term right now. So yeah, for women, sometimes in
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: some religions they're used as trophy wives. So think about
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: the stereotypical preacher's wife. Not only are they created to
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: birth children, but they're also created to hold up the
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: man and be in the background and all of these
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: things and make the right food and make the right
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: gestures and make the right connections, but never be allowed
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: to be above the man.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: So you look at religion and you're like, are they
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: grooming certain things? And you start grooming certain kids to
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: be pastors, grooming certain kids to be missionaries. Oh, I
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: see this in you. I see this in you, So
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: why don't we do this for you?
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: The point being, this could be such a bigger conversation
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: than the one we're having today, and I think that
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: is really fascinating and kind of scary to think about.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: But wanted to put that in there.
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: I'll be back to do that one too. No one,
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: that's we're not talking about.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I just created that.
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: Okay, perfect.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Well, we do have some more for you about recognizing signs,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: but first we have one more quick break forward from
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: our sponsor.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: And we're back, Thank you sponsor.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: So there are some signs that you can look out
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: for if you suspect someone you know is being groomed
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: or I guess even like turning it inward. So alcohol
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: or drug use, nightmares, changes, in diet are exercise patterns, insomnia,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: disordered eating, anxiety withdrawn nature, risk taking, acting inappropriately sexual
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: for their age, and self harm are suicidal tendencies. And
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: it's so strange during episodes like these for me because
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: it's kind of a checklist of things I experienced. And
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: as I was researching this, I got a pit in
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: the feeling of my stomach because I retroactively recognize these
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: signs in myself.
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: Right, And I think that happens when you start looking back,
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: you're like, oh my gosh, this is a clear sign
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: of and I know I've actually spoken with a few
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: women and it doesn't necessarily have to do with grooming,
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: but they didn't realize what was happening was an assault
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: onto them because they were like, oh, I just gave up,
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: blah blah blah. I said this and he didn't listen,
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: but whatever, And then they moved on and we were
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: having this conversation, they make the realization, oh, my gosh,
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: I was raped or I was assaulted or I was
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: being groomed for this, And it's that clarity of oh yeah,
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: because also at the initial moment, you don't want to
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: say you're a victim that's the last thing you want
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: to think. As bad as everything is, you don't want
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: to be one more thing. I'm a victim, and not
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: that it's a bad thing, but it does feel like
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: such a weakness even though you shouldn't.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with you.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I know so many listeners have written in
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: about that very thing you're talking about, like, I didn't
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: realize what happened to me was this, and it is.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: It's very difficult to accept, like to put it in
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: those terms, and I think a lot of people will
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: avoid doing it.
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: And I know there's also I'm pretty sure we're gonna
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: be talking about this in later episodes because I will
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: be here forever where they don't think it is as bad.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so maybe as a child you were never
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: actually raped, when you were touched and.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Fondled, that's bad. Yeah, Well, let's just put it out there.
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: That's abuse and it shouldn't have happened, and that will
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: traumatize you.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: And if you were able to move past it in
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: a healthy manner, wonderful. If you haven't, it's not bad,
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: you didn't do anything wrong, it's not abnormal. You need
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: help to get past this. Because it happened to you,
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: it was unwelcomed, and it was harmful. End of story.
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: There's no this is worse than this that needs to
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: be thrown out the window.
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: M hmm.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we need to talk about all of these things. So,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: the NSPCC has a list of science forged children specifically,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: and they include being secretive, especially about what they're doing online,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: dating someone older, meeting up with people in strange places,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: having new things they can't or won't explain, having access
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: to drugs and alcohol, nightmares, cleanness, bed wedding, masturbation, or
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: touching others inappropriately.
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: Right, And I think I would include in some of
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: these things when they randomly start bringing up strangers' names
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: that you don't recognize, which has happened a lot, and
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: you start asking questions and if they can't tell you
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: last names. As a person who has done investigations for
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: child abuse, that was one of the things that I
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: would look for. I saw I met with this person? Really,
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: who is this is my sole and so's friend? Okay,
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: what's his last name? I don't know. How often do
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: you see them? When do you just things like that?
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: That's actually a big sign too. They start suddenly talking
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: about this wonderful person, but yet you don't know who
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: they are, where they came from, but they crept up.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: That's something to watch for too.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Right, And when talking about prevention, especially when it comes
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: to children, it's recommended speaking to them about sex and
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: anatomy at a young age, letting them know that they
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: can come to you with concerns, and teaching them about
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: grooming behaviors and like you were seeing touching, like if
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: you don't want to hug, it's totally cool.
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: And I think it's just a reminder for the parents
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: or adults who are dealing with the situation too. If
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: this happens to your child, your niece, your nephew, your student,
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: it isn't your fault. And I know part of that
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: shame comes on to the parents or adults as well.
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: I actually experienced this myself as a child. I'd gone
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: through several different types of abuse and I was acting
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: out in class and I also was suicidal because my
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: parents didn't know what to do, and they felt shame
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: and they felt guilt. They lashed out in a different manner,
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: which they have apologized. And we've gone through all the
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: knows and is, but essentially making me feel more ashamed
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: and not being able to come out again with any
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: of the more information. Right on top of that, this
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: should not be something that you beat yourself up for.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: That is part of the help as well.
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: You being in the proximity of someone else being victimized.
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: It is not your fault either, and you need to
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: care for yourself as much as you need to care
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: for this victim.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: Right Yeah.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: And as I've said on the show before, I've actually
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: never told anyone in my family any of this, like
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: they would be shocked, and part of that is because
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: I didn't want them to feel guilty, right So, and
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: the thing is that that's me. They've never really given
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: me an indication that they would, but that is a
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: part of like I considered that I haven't told them.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: So those that's a good point, and we have some
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: some resources to put in here. If you realize that
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: you are someone you know is the target of grooming,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: there is there is help for you out there. The
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: first step is recognizing what's going on. Once you do that,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: identify someone outside of this relationship that you can talk
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: to about it. In a perfect world, this would be
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: a professional, someone who doesn't know the groomer, but that
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: isn't always an option for everyone. Unfortunately, you can find
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: resources online that have advice on getting out of a
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: situation like this, and you can call the US National
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Domestic Violence Hotline, which is eight zero zero seven nine
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: nine seven two three three or the US Victim Connect
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Resource Center eight five five four eight four two eight
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: four six. They also have online options, but I mean
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen is
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: that they have like this function or if you click away,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: it erases your history.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: There are several options for domestic balance victims where you
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: click it and goes to whether it's your dial page
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: or whatever. Unfortunately, it's necessary and I wanted to add
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: one more out there, which is with the Child Health
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: National Hotline, so this could be specifically to child services
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: child needs. It is one eight hundred for a child
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: so or one eight hundred four two to two four
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: four five three. And I know in each individual state
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: there are hotlines to your department Family and Children's Services
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: or Family and Children's Services that are available, which in
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: the perfect world would be the end all, but at
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: least you are doing something.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and for listeners not in the United States.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: There are resources in a lot of a lot of
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: other countries as well, obviously, so there there is help
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: out there. A lot of times targets of grooming might
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: not realize what's going on, and we'll outright deny it.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: This came up a lot with the thing with r. Kelly,
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: which makes helping them difficult. And the best way to
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: approach the situation, from what I've read, is to be
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: a friend and good listener to the target of grooming,
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: voice your concerns and give reasonings in a calm manner.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: If you try to remove someone from the situation forcefully,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: it could get worse for the.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: Person that you're talking to.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: However, if the target is a minor or otherwise vulnerable adult,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: an authorized adult really needs to intervene. And again, this
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: is something you see with like.
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: Cults, right, yeah, and again, I keep referencing my job
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: in my career, I have seen many a times where
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: parents just kind of go after them, go after them
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: and continuously because run away kids, run away kids run away.
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: And one of the big things that we have to say,
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: we can't make them meant what's going on. We can't
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: make them say they're a victim we can't make them
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: say this makes them unhappy because in the end, we
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: don't know where they come from or came from. And
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: oftentimes in my job as a social worker working with
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: children and working with tea, I see that they think
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: this is a better route because they feel like they
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: have more control than what was happening at home. So
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: that is definitely a situation, and there's not much you
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: can do other than make sure you're there for them, yeah,
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: and continue to be there for them and check in
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: on them.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: So I guess to give a little bit of closure
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: for what I was talking about earlier in my situation.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: The longest phase of abuse I had, it ended with
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: a car crash and arrest that I still feel very
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: guilty about because I really wanted them out of my
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: life and I couldn't do it, And when it happened
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: in this abrupt, violent way, I was so relieved, and that,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: even though I know it's totally legitimate and human to
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: feel that way, it made me feel really awful about myself.
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: So that's something I still struggle.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: These aren't easy, easy things to deal with, Like we're
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: giving you advice, but we're telling you from people who've
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: experienced things.
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: We know it's difficult, and this is where we're coming
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: back to understanding trauma. And that's why we are talking
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: about this, because we want you to see every different aspect.
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: Maybe all you had was the grooming experience that's still traumatic.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: Maybe someone you knew went through that experience that's still traumatic.
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: And of course we want to keep talking about it
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: and keep going into it as we go into more
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: of these episodes. But again, these are things that both
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: Annie and I have experienced, have seen, continue to see
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: and try to hopefully champion for the people who can't
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: champion for themselves essentially, but it's important once again to
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: take care of yourself and these guilt acknowledge that they're there.
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: Trying to pretend like it's not there does not work,
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: I promise.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: I have come out on many panic attacks trying to
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: repress a lot of a lot of things in my past,
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: and unfortunately, which is what we're going to talk about,
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: with the different types of trauma, PTSD, CPTSD, all of
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: those things it comes out, unfortunately, whether it's in your
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: relationships in a daily life, or whether it's in panic
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: attacks or mental health things, it does. And so therefore
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: caring for yourself and acknowledging that these are there are
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: actually very very important.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, and that brings us to we're going to try
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: to end all of these episodes with some self care stuff.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: So we're gonna like go through what we're doing for
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: self care for me. I am finally watching Spider Man three,
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: which I know some people would argue with the opposite
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: of self care, but I'm.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: Excited about it.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: These are nerd things. I don't know.
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: I'm so excited.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: It's notoriously okay, pretty bad, and I'm making I'm doing
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: this because I'm working on a Venom parody music video
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: so very important, which I'm very excited about.
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I am too. I can't tell you how
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: excited I am about it. It's oh, please be in it.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: I'm recruiting everyone who will help me, so listeners if
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: you guess them. It's a song parody to the tune
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: of Beck's Loser because in the movie Venom, if you
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: don't know, he calls himself loser in a very funny
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: tone of voice. Anyway, also hanging out with friends and
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: going hiking, and for the D and D factor of
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: the episode because I'm going to include one of these
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: for everyone, since the whole reason I started playing.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: D and D was to deal with my CPTSD.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, so one thing that's great about D and D
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: or terrible, depending on who you ask, is that it
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: rarely goes as planned for anybody. And my character is
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: sort of notorious for blowing stuff up. And and in
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: the game, we were invited to this very fancy party,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: like we had to buy dresses our suits.
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, very fancy. It went terribly awry.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: All the authorities of this entire town are looking for it, like,
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: they chase us out of the party, and I make
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: time my character to blow something up while we're being
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: pursued by the police.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: And then.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: We broke into this mean old lady's magic shop again
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: being pursued by the police.
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: Okay, when you're saying this is all on the game
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: not in real life, because I got really for a second,
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: I was like, how are you not arrested? And also
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: who has a magic shop? I keep going, I'm ready now.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, So we're we're not great people, if that's not clear,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: our characters are, but we're fun.
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: We're fun at parties.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: Are the party's imaginary parties. Oh okay, so in parties
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: both we'll see, yes.
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: But one of our party members.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Stole an outcloak that when he put it on, our
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: dungeon master is the person that's kind of running the game.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: He said, you're not sure what it does, but you
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: feel really confident. And now he never takes his character,
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: never takes it off, and he looks cool as hell.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: He always describes how he's wearing it.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: The next day after we played, Paul Mannerfort got busted
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: for his ostrich coat, and I thought.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: It was perfect.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: Perfect.
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: So he's prettymuch much Dungeons and dragons all metaphor exactly.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Who doesn't want to be that?
• 53:04
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I don't care right there, that's the
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: parody in itself. It is, okay, So my fun facts
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: would have to do with my dinky dog, Peach's Gertrude buzzing.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's her full name.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: She I yelled that out loud to her when she
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: does something dumb, which is often, And I have been
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: told that dogs take on the characters of their person
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: I can't deny that. I can't deny that she's a jerk,
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: but I love her. She can't go out in public
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: because she acts a fool, but she loves everyone except
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: for other dogs. She loves men more interesting. And I'm
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: not gonna slut shame her, but that makes me feel
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: some type of way because I don't have.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: That many men coming through my life. And I already
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: feel kind of weird about.
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: That because I feel like I should, as we talked
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: about the previous episodes, so I feel like she's giving
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: me a double wimy of shame. I'm like, you're not
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: good enough, and why don't you have a man? I'm
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: pretty sure that's the look I got from her.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: And if you.
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: See, if anybody ever wants a picture of me and
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: her during the New Year's and I give her a
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: kiss and she rolls her eyes at me, that is
• 54:14
  Speaker 4: a constant yes.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, And you have offered before if you have pictures,
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: she has pictures, and if you want them, if you
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: need them for your own self care, you can write
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: in God him.
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: She's wearing a hat, and one she's wearing a tiger suit, no,
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: a lion suit, and one Christmas pj's.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: In one she's sitting on top of people. In another.
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: Goodness, see a lot of options.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you need resources, you can reach out
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: to us as well. Samantha will be back in our
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: next episode whatever, and this series on examining trauma, and
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: the next episode is about trauma specifically, so you can
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: look out watch your feed for that. In the meantime time,
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: if you want to email us if you need any
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: of those resources or those pictures, you can. Our email
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: is mom Stuff at hawstuffworks dot com. Our Twitter is
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: Mom's Stuff Podcast, and on Instagram we are stuff We've
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: never told you. Thanks as always to our producer Andrew Howard,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: and thanks to much for listening.