Latest / The Bold Lounge / Charlene Li: Own Your Confidence to Be a Disruptive Leader

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Charlene Li: Own Your Confidence to Be a Disruptive Leader · The Bold Lounge

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Every week we'll hear from someone who has taken a lead or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Whether they faced challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be created.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'd like to welcome you to the bold lounge.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: And today we have Charlene Lee who's joining us, and I'm excited to have her as part of the podcast.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Charlene, for joining.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: The normal as we start out with we're talking on the bold lounge is to talk about boldness.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it would be great to hear from you, Charlene, what you would consider bold or what your definition of bold is.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Bold is, I think you you've talked about this many times, stepping out of your comfort zone for sure.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: But also, especially going where no one else has gone before, uh, carving out a path where there are you're the you're the pioneer.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: No one else is around you doing this, you're alone, and you need a tremendous amount of courage and bravery to step out there and be bold.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just stepping out of your comfort zone, and it feels really scary because there's no path, no path written in front of you of how to actually do this.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So when someone's doing that, what have you experienced in your life around this as you've pioneered?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, you're a successful author of multiple books.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's one thing that I think is pioneering, and some of the things that you've written about as well.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say are some of the things along your bold journey that you would highlight that kind of match that definition?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I it started with my very first decision about the career.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I was going to be a doctor, and everyone in my family was going to be a doctoral engineer.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the daughter of immigrants from China.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And when I said to my dad I was going to go into business, he stopped me and said, Look, honey, who everybody in business is a tall white man.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're a short Asian woman.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And what makes you think that you're going to be successful at this?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and I realized that um you had a really good point.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then there were no, there were literally no role models that I could point to.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when I realized I was carving out something, that I was stepping out of my comfort zone.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I was going to have to take a different stance, that I would be a pioneer, that I would be one of the first people that people would ever, first Asian women that people would ever encounter.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd be 22 years old.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that that was definitely a bold moment.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: And another one is when I graduated from Harvard Business School, I decided to go into newspapers.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And even back then, it was seen as a dying backwards industry.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And people were saying, Why would you go into newspapers?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: You could get any job you wanted out of Harvard Business School.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I believe in the power that that internet is going to change things.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is back in 1993, so where it was not obvious.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that newspapers would be one of the first ones to be disrupted.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to be there at that point of change to be a part of what would come.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized then because people were just kind of shocked by what I was doing, like, are you crazy?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: That I this is another bold moment of mine.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go back to the 22-year-old Charlene when you're making that decision, or you've made some of the decisions and definitely not seeing role models in your area, people like you.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: What was in you?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of did that come from your parents, or how how did you make that step forward?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my response back to my dad was well, you did it.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: You came to America when there was nobody else doing this.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this was back in the early 60s.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: The immigration and Chinese exclusion that was so much in place.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a hostile environment that he came into and got very lucky, was able to get a green card and stayed.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And he grew up in Detroit.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: There wasn't a strong Asian, there were no Asians.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: We were the only family color in my neighborhood.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I said, I I drew my inspiration from them.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm like, you guys did it, I can do it.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I had that confidence because they had shown me what it was like to be bold.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So as a young person making that move, do you think it's harder for someone younger versus older?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm 50, so I feel like I feel like bold every day now because I feel like life is short.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so like I don't have time not to be bold.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: But like when you're 22, like, does do you feel like it's easier or harder, or it just depends?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you think that it might be harder, but it's I think it's actually easier because you have less to lose.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have a family, you don't have a mortgage, you may have student debt, but hey, in the beginning, it's not that bad.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I had I had a lot of debt coming out of college and again in business school, a huge amount of debt.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, going to newspapers, my salary was not that much more than what it was when I went into business school.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm sitting here going, I'm taking on a huge amount of debt.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have that much to show for from a salary point of view.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going into a backwards unionized industry.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, so again, I was I was all of you know 27 when I graduated.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: So just a little bit older than 22.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I felt like I I when I'm else am I when else am I going to do this?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: The the other bold time is when I was in my 40s when I started my company.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now that was hard.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because I left a very secure job, a great job to go and start a company back in 2008.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize this, but it was just a few weeks before the recession hit before the financial crisis.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, looking back, I'm like, well, would I have done the same thing?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: In the end, I'm glad I didn't.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like the timing just worked out perfectly that um it was the right time, it was the right moment.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: I had the confidence.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, it was a huge challenge.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: I had young kids.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: My husband was an entrepreneur, so income wasn't a guaranteed thing, and I was losing our healthcare.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I figured if I do this now, when am I ever going to do it?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: When am I ever going to have the guts and the chance to do this again?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I felt it was something I had to try.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you and I have talked a little bit.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I started my own business in 20, you started your own business in 2008.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still very much a freshman, I feel like, every now and then.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And as a as an entrepreneur starting off and doing things, you know what you know.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's not as if you go into it not having a very solid understanding of you know the basics, the foundational elements, those types of pieces, but you still feel, at least I'll speak for myself, you feel at times like you don't know what you're doing.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, starting off in 2008 when you did that, and and this is something that I think is absolutely a bold moment for you and for anyone who starts their own business.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of people I think are thinking about that now with the great resignation, you know, the change of what people expect in the workplace and the challenges that have happened from the pandemic.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if someone's thinking about going and starting their own business, what what would you say are the key things they should think through?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think there's a gain, there's a pro-con, right, to to this.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then when when you did it, kind of what did you look at?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: I looked at my cash.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: In the end, it's all about your cash.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And looking back, I was I'm like, I had no idea what I was doing.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: I knew then, but looking back, I really now know that I really didn't do it.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and this is after Harvard Business School, after being an advisor to top companies, advising startups.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I thought I I knew as much as I could, yeah, and I was never going to be ready.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So why not start it?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I hear from so many people, they're like, I don't know I'm just not ready.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: There are a couple of things I have to do.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, what is this?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is it like, you know, you've got to like move?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is it that you, you know, and they're like, no, I need to take a couple more courses, I need to get this job experience.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you're never gonna be ready if you keep waiting.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And what I found to be most helpful is I wish I'd done this even sooner.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: I joined a business networking group.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my business had grown fairly large, and I realized it was scaling to the point it was I was really not clear on what I wanted to do and needed to do.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I joined the young president's organization, YPO.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there were equivalent organizations like Visage or Entrepreneurs Organization, and they're so helpful because you're now working with other CEOs, other entrepreneurs in many cases, and they're sitting in the same shoes as you are.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just the business, but it's managing all of it, your entire life.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you're running something, it's all encompassing.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to think about how to balance everything.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a huge turning point for me that I felt like I wasn't alone anymore, that I had peers.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you said something very important.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: You graduated from Harvard Business School and you still felt like you didn't know what you some of the things that you needed to know.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: So for everyone listening out there, you have to start when you you're not ready.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, that's that's how it feels.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's where some boldness comes in from the perspective of trusting yourself, right?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Having faith or belief in yourself to do what you know you you're going to try to do.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it certainly isn't perfect.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure as things start off.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I certainly have examples of things like, wow, I wouldn't have done it that way now.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have do you have any like in your first, let's just say, like year of of out?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you had the recession, but is there anything like you remember of your first or second year early on that you're like, man, I would do it differently now, but I learned a lot from it?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, there are so many things, so many things.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I think the way I set up the company, period, the structure, the governance was completely wrong.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it it led to a lot of dysfunctions in the way that me and and the other partners integrated and worked with each other.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so it really set up individual incentives and not enough firm-wide company incentives.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And trying to go back and change that later on just didn't work.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: I just, I just didn't understand how to build a strong, lasting partnership, but that was clear from the beginning what our goals were and having aligned goals.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And in many ways, it just caused so many problems later on.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um, one of the things I advise people is, you know, you're never going to be ready.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: But the difference between anxiety and excitement is confidence.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because it could be the exact same situation, but you can feel really anxious about this, or you can feel really excited about it.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Just simply be fact by the fact that you have confidence in yourself and your team that you can work through any problems, whatever changes or problems come along the way, you have confidence in yourself and your team that you can figure it out.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: So the difference between anxiety and excitement is confidence.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: So certainly there's a lot of excitement being an entrepreneur, or maybe even switching careers, or deciding to even step back from your career and kind of focus on your personal life.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's hashtag bold, and a lot of people are doing that as well.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And there is, you know, certainly at any moment it could feel like high anxiety.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or it could feel like I've heard some people describe it as risky or selfish.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it really is all about your, you know, the words you use with yourself around that as well.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, you know, from from the perspective of like your first couple of years and the things that you've gone into, tell me a little bit about becoming an author and some of the things that you've done around that.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I was at Forester Research and I was already writing reports, and uh I felt like this one topic about social technologies was bigger than a report, a 20-page report.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: There was a whole entire trend, something major was happening.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And those there was literally a book inside me trying to get out.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went to my leadership and found a partner and we proposed, let's write a book.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they incredibly said yes.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: So um the interesting thing is I kept working in my day job while writing the book.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: My partner was able to get to do to do this full time.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it was such a great way to test the concepts of the book in real time, but like, okay, I have this idea, let me go try it out on a client or try it out in in a blog post or something.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a great laboratory, and I've kept doing that, where writing the research helps with my advisory work, and my advisory work feeds my writing and my research because it keeps changing, the questions keep coming up, you get deeper into things.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: So all of it builds on each other.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I found that was the reason why I keep writing books is like, well, I keep talking about it, it keeps raising up even more questions.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And like, oh, I don't know the answer to that.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go figure it out.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's how I go from one topic to the other, and they have this logical progression in some weird way.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a favorite so far?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: I know your your most recent one is the disruption mindset, which I want to talk about mindset a little bit, but along the way, like it's certainly you like you said, one feeds the other, right?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: That your experiences feed the book, which the book then feeds probably and leads to more experiences.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a favorite or do they all kind of hold a different space in your world?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're all like children.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: How can you name a favorite?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have to say, holding my first book in my hands for the first time, I burst out into tears.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my goodness.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like holding a child, your first child for the first time, you're always like you burst into tears.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my gosh, it's here.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Can't believe it.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then after that, it's like, yeah, great, great, it's over.
• 13:58
  unknown: You know, we're done.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's, you know, the the last one is just most relevant for me right now and most relevant for my audiences.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I still meet people who said, I just read a great book on open leadership, or I just read um groundswell.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, that book was published 13 years ago.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you still find it relevant.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: 14 years ago, actually.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you still find it relevant.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's really gratifying whenever I hear that people that the book has been supportive and helpful to people.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the best feeling in the world to know that the work that you did had an impact.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it's all about.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you definitely have had that.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: When you think about your newest book, which is The Disruption Mindset, Why Some Organizations Transform, Why Others Fail.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, experiences in in your career and in your professional consulting world have potentially led to some of these things, I'm assuming in this book.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of made you want to write this particular one now?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I kind of staked my career on helping disruptors, helping disruptive leaders transform their businesses.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then someone asked me one day, very wisely, said, So, how do you do that?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do you disrupt yourself?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I went, you know, I have like vague answers.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a really good, crisp answer.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: I should have one.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I was curious about how some organizations just seem to disrupt themselves over and over again without ever getting fatigued.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Other ones who are non-traditional players, you know, not in a tech business, not Google or Facebook or Amazon.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: These were like traditional businesses, were transforming and disrupting themselves.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is it?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that they do?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: So and I felt like there were enough examples that I could go around and interview them and do a survey of leaders to do research around this.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea what the answer was.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and so doing the research and writing the book came came into some really good learnings that seem to make a lot of sense.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And frankly, I've been applying them for the past three years, and people have found that they resonated, they work.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's really helping people disrupt themselves.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: At the beginning, you have a a Wayne Gretzky quote, which is I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it's been, which I think you know, we've seen that, you know, a bunch of times in in different spaces, but it's really being able to look ahead and predict, correct?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and being able to understand from either your past or from other experiences what may happen next.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that, for example, in my world with my clients, I call that big swings of bold, meaning we're not really sure.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're not, you know, it's not a guarantee the puck will end up right there.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, nine out of ten times, this is where I think it's going to be.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: When you think about that with regard to disruption, how does that translate into the the world of business?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of being look, you know, looking ahead and being able to use data or information to predict.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and it's not just using the data information, it's again having confidence that more times than not, you're going to be right.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and you get confidence from doing it a lot of times and frankly, missing a lot of times.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, baseball players are fantastic if they hit a third of the time.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're like best like top of the league if they hit a third of the time.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Disconnect with the ball a third of the time.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And yet in business, we feel like we're a failure if we don't hit it a hundred percent of the time.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: So giving ourselves that leeway to say, you know, I'm gonna take my best guess at this.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's given the information I have is the best guess I have.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because for me to have perfect information and total confidence that this is gonna be the way it is, it's going to be too late.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'll only take small little chances.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the part of being bold is to say, I'm gonna make these big bets.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I know some of them will work, some of them will not.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: But as I get better at this more than will, and I will get better at it, and I'll take even bigger chances.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it means not being afraid of failure and looking at every single situation as not a potential to succeed or to fail, but look at every situation as a learning experience, regardless of what the outcome is.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Boldness says I'm gonna go off on this not knowing what the outcome is.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really, I think, founded in a growth mindset, right?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you're going to continually learn, you're not going to say this is my capability and I can't learn anymore.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also this confidence piece to it that you know you've said a couple of times, which I think is really important.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Confidence doesn't mean you aren't scared at times.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'll use the word scared or frightened or unsure.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Confidence means you're willing to try, regardless of the outcome.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And regardless of the outcome, you know that you'll learn something.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, would you agree with that in a sense of mindset?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and and I would say confidence is even more specifically that regardless of the outcome, you know you are going to be okay.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: You may not be better off, but you'll be okay.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: You'll get you survive.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you'll survive and you'll get to better.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the thing too.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly as you learn and in life and all the different things that we try or experience, um, you know, whether it's a hobby or a job or a role or networking, you know, whatever it may be, you're all right at the other side of it.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's so important because I think it's hard, it's definitely hard, I think, to make some of the changes that people are making today and some of the things that um when you break out and and try to, like, for example, start your own business.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: You like you said, you feel like you're not ready yet, or you need one more thing.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And if you keep waiting for that moment, I think sometimes the moment might pass you by, or you'll or you may never go for it.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: I knew when I started my business that I had a one year of runway.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I had enough saved up, and we were secure enough that we could, you know, take this risk.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because I those I couldn't risk my house, I couldn't risk my family's wellness.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I took a calculated risk that I would be able to get clients with enough clients within a year to be able to survive and make a living out of this.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and in worst case, I still had one way to go and find a job.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, same thing when I was 22 and I went into business, I said to my father, you know, I type a hundred words a minute.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if if even if I can't be successful as a leader or manager because of societal reasons, someone's gonna hire me because I'm gonna be amazing, fantastic, you know, manager or assistant.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I have confidence that I will always have a roof over my head and food on my table.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm absolutely confident that that can happen.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna give it a try.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's definitely key.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: You've talked about being a disruptive leader.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: What would you define that as?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: A disruptive leader is somebody who looks at a situation and leaders, frankly, are ones who look at the situation around them and say, something needs to change here.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're not creating change, then you're not a leader, you're a manager, which is fine.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: But managers maintain the status quo, leaders change it.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: And a disruptive leader says, Oh, there needs to be some really big change here.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And in order for that change happens, I'm going to have to cause disruption.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to make people feel uncomfortable.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: I am going to really upset and push the limits of other people.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to expect other people to step up and be bold themselves.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to have to inspire them to come on this journey with me.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what leadership is in the end.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a relationship between people who are aspire to create change and people who are inspired by them to follow them into that journey.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And disruptive leaders do this at such a different level of scale.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: They're asking people, let's be audacious.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: How audacious can we be?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: How far can we go?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Come with me to the very edge of what is possible and take, let's go take a look and see what we can do together.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: What would they say to that disruptive leader who knows that's inside them, but they're maybe they're not confident or They're concerned of what it may mean to their career or to their next step, but they really feel like they need to do something different or to, like you said, create a movement.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And they know they have followers who believe in what they believe in, but they just haven't broken out.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any advice to that closet disruptive leader out there?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Find your first followers.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: I talk about that in the book.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing like just getting your first follower.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: It is so important to get that first follower because that first follower will validate you.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: They will validate you to yourself, but they will also validate you to all the other people who are watching.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that first follower is really important.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's just somebody who's share the information and say, You want to give it a try?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: You want to just explore this a little bit?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so you might not be ready to like take on the entire world and disrupt, but you can go find your first follower.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how a movement begins.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's how you actually start making a difference, is when you're leading and you're developing that relationship with someone who believes in your vision and will follow you.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right now in today's world, do you feel like there is a key disruptor out there for us to look at and go, wow, they're really disrupting either the industry in that they're in or potentially the particular area of business that they're working in.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anyone that comes to mind, you know, from your book and the things that you've done?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like look at the example of X, and this is someone that has done an extreme amount of disruption and innovation.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: The disruptor, I I love the site from my book, is his name is Paul LeBlanc.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: He's the president of Southern New Hampshire University.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's exactly what you would think.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's a small private university in Southern New Hampshire, about 3,000 students on campus, and over 150,000 learners online.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: The largest accredited university to give two and four-year degrees in the world.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not Harvard, it's not Stanford or MIT or anything like that.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: It is a small private university in southern New Hampshire.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, he's single-handedly just changing the way education is being done by being completely student-centered and developing these courses for people.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes he's providing university degrees and accreditations to people in refugee camps because no one else will.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: So he's literally changing the way education is being delivered, and especially the way that you count an accomplishment of a degree.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: He's basically saying, why do credits?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Which credits was an antiquated way to give credits to tenured faculty.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: That makes no sense in the student-centered world.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: So they do competency-based degrees now.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: That if you can prove that you can do this work, you get the degree.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And frankly, you don't get the degree until you can prove you can do this work.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: So anybody hiring you knows what they're getting.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I love this example.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: My husband actually just graduated from there.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: He just got his master's in science there in construction management.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And specifically, what I, you know, what I felt during that particular program that was different than my brick and mortar type of experiences at the colleges I've been to from my degrees is the level of actual caring that occurred.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: He would have a regular check-in with his advisor who talked to him regularly how's it going?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're starting your semester, how's it going when you're halfway through?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I never had that experience.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: I always had an advisor and someone I could ask, but it wasn't someone who was actually proactively reaching out.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll just add that in because I think not only that's a great example of like a business model that's different, right?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: But also a way of thinking around the degree and experience.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also this human side to it that may not come out in certain things, but I, you know, just being a family member of someone who just graduated from there, it just it seemed to be a differentiator, which makes you potentially stay longer and finish the degree.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's not always easy.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: What a small growth that your husband graduated from that.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't plan that anyway, everyone wouldn't.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, we did not plan that at all.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: But but the one thing about SNHU that's amazing is that that student advice is the core of everything that they do.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Everything.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason why they've been so successful at disrupting, and I'm so glad you brought this up as an example, is that because they understand the needs of their students and because they're so on top of it, they can anticipate what the future needs are of those students.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: They, for example, realize that the number one way to attract a student, to convince them to register actually register, is that if you get in touch with them within a few hours after they put in their inquiry, because they're inquiring to all of these other colleges.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they found that most of them came in during the evenings and on the weekends because that's when people were not working.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: So they changed their staffing to be optimized for those hours when students were available, not to do regular work hours.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is geared towards student success.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: They were actually tell a student you should not enroll.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: We will not take your money because you're not ready.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, we won't ask you to work into this area, take this class instead to prepare yourself to be able to take the next level of course because you're not thriving.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, human side to it, right?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Of the business.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a great example of a disruptor, an innovator, and someone who's having success.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a cyclical side to this, right?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because you don't ever get satisfied, I would assume.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just going to ask you that because you're the expert.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: When you're a disruptive leader, you are probably on a regular basis thinking we could do something different, we could do something better.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is that accurate?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Again, the idea of being a leader.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think basically, if you're a leader, by definition, you're disrupted because you're disrupting the status quo.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: The leaders are constantly saying, again, part of the growth mindset.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: How can we do this better?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a better way?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: On behalf of our customers, they're constantly moving.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: How are they changing?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: How can we better meet their needs?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: What are their needs going to be in the future?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: We know they're changing.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing ever stays the same.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: So how do we need to change?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: How do we get better?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: How do we improve?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: How do we learn?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll end today with kind of advice.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So from the perspective of your world and people either kind of being disruptive or wanting to make a change in their life or just wanting something different, like you know something's off.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: What would be your advice?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, be aware, be super aware that something is bothering you, that there's this itch.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Something's, you know, you're you're you've got ants in your pants, whatever it is.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta go explore it.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you just sit there and just like, I'm not gonna listen to this, it'll go away eventually.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure, it might go away.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good way to test it.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: But if it doesn't go away, if it persists, you do yourself a favor and just go take a look.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Be curious about it, explore it.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're not making any commitments, but I know so many people won't even look because the implications of what that could lead to.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're not committing to anything at that point.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're just looking.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if nothing else, you'll you'll know whether it's the right time or it's not.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: There are phases in our lives and it's the right time or not.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was at my last company for six years, three years even after my buyout ended, because it just worked.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was the right time and place.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then the right opportunity came along a few months ago, and I made a switch, a big switch to a new company.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's being patient with yourself, knowing yourself and saying, you know, there's a right time and place for this, there's a right season for this.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And don't feel like you're any less because you're not taking that bold move.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if it persists, you should take a look.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Go and see what that's about.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Curiosity doesn't cost anything.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So just it doesn't.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great way to put it.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's great advice.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: So really appreciate Charlene, you being part of the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's been some excellent guidance and new information and some fun things to learn about.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: I encourage everyone to get any of her books, uh, the latest one being the disruption mindset, and you'll learn and get them all, in my opinion.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you very much, Charlene.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Really enjoyed having you on the podcast.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you again for having me.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking a leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.