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Mini: Rock, Paper, Scissors · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we Do what we Do. Welcome
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to Why we Do what we Do Mini. I'm your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: host Abraham and I'm your host Shane. We are a
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: psychology podcast. We talk about the things that humans and
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: non human animals do. And this is a short episode
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: called the mini because it's short and so we only
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: record for like a good fifteen minutes or less, or
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: we try to and then get out of there and
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: let you get about your day. We put these out
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: on Monday's or full lengths come out on Wednesdays. If
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: you're joining us for the first time, then welcome. We
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: hope you enjoy what we talk about in this discussion.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: If you're a returning person, then welcome back. We're glad
• 0:48
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• 0:50
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• 0:52
  Speaker 1: leave us a rating and a review like subscribe, tell
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: a friend. I'll talk more about that at the end
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: of this discussion, but we need to get into it
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: because it's a mini. Shane.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, you're ready, Rock Paper Scissors?
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Oh oh, we both did scissors?
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Tie?
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: All right? There is way more to talk about with
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: this game than I would have originally thought. When I
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: started this notes. But we are doing these notes. We
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: were talking about rock paper scissors.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, what a fun game. It's the game to settle
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: all scores.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Right yeah yeah between two people, between two people. Yes,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: we are going to talk about what rock paper scissors is,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: where it comes from, and what it can tell us
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: about human behavior.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, so let's get into it. Rock paper scissors or
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: rochambeau is an ancient competitive game. So it is gone
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: by many many many names, some sources of degree. It
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: most likely originated in ancient China, with the earliest mentioned
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: in a book called Wuzuzu by Ming dynasty writer Shi
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Xiao Jun or Jou Jun, who describes the first iteration
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: of the game similar to rock paper scissors, to be
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: considered its progenitor.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, so, she Jaozhou, I believe is how we say it.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry if we're butchering that. They write that this
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: game called Shaushiling originated sometime during the Han dynasty in China,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: which was two h six BCE to two twenty CE,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: so just a cool four hundred year period, no big deal,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: no big deal, in which it quickly spread to Japan,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: where a version of a cyclical competitive game. There was
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: a whole genre of these sort of cyclical competitive games
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: called sansukumi ken, which roughly translates into three are afraid
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: of one another and then ken is.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Fist that's fantastic, yeah yeah, and the the Rock paper
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Scissors version of this was called mushi ken. Okay, So
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: in the Japanese version, hand gestures representing a frog, which
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: is a fist with the thumb extended out, a slug,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: a fist with the little finger extended out, and a
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: snake a fist with the index finger I exended out.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: That's the three. So it's a thumb, peaky finger or
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: pointer finger when you throw your fist.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, and that's the order in which they beat it,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: so it's it's supposed to be that frog beats slug,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: slug beats snake, snake beats frog. And so like Rock
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: paper scissors, they would throw one of those hand symbols,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: and you know, whoever threw the symbol that won obviously won. Sure,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: And that's that's how they'd play.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so, which I actually kind of want to try
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: that version now because it just sounds like fun. But okay,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: so this this cyclical three tiered game. It first made
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: its way to America in the early nineteen hundreds, with
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: they mentioned in a nineteen twenty one edition of The
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: Washington Herald calling it Chinese gambling, which feels very on
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: brand for the nineteen twenties in America. Yeah, it was
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: mentioned in eighteen twenty four in England where they called
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: it zot and it was mentioned apparently for the first
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: time in nineteen twenty seven in France in an article
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: in which it was called jo jappone, which translates simply
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: to Japanese game. And there are actually some sources who
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: credited this to Japan, but most scholars are very certain
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: that thus originated in China and not Japan, although it
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: obviously made its way to Japan from China very quickly
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: early on.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, in case you've never seen or heard of
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: this somehow in some way, it's a two player game
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: in which both players face one another and form their
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: dominant hand into a fist, which they hold out in
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: front of themselves. They both raise and lower their fists rapidly,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: like we just did at the beginning of the show.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: We go rock paper sis or shoot, you know, something
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: like that. Sometimes landing their fist at an open palm
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: of their other hand, which is what we did. You
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: couldn't see it, but that's what we did. You might
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: have heard it in the background if you heard slapping.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: That's what that was.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Just to be clear, slapping sounds of the background. We're
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: just our our fist punching our palm.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, just so everybody is on the same pager
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: and sometimes you just do it in the air. They
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: make three pounding motions, usually in sync with one another,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: which is what we did while saying the name of
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: the game, one word at a time along with each
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  Speaker 2: downward motion. Rock paper scissors. So that's what we did,
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: where we held our fist out and we said rock
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: paper scissors. Shoot, And that's kind of what it looks.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Like or rock paper scissors ads. All right, we're back.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: We've been describing how rock paper Scissors works if you
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: are not familiar with it, despite its ubiquitousness. As you said,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: both people essentially make you know three sort of like
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: if you're banging your fist on a table, but it's
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: just an open air or on your open palm of
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: your other hand, and you do that three times and
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: at the same time at the end of those three times,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: both players form their hand into some sort of gesture.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: In that first Japanese game, it was the thumb, the
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: index finger of the pinky finger. In Rock paper Scissors,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: you might form a fist which represents the rock, a
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: V shape between your index and middle fingers, like the
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: peace sign. All they're holding it vertically, and that represents
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: the scissors. And then there's the open, flat hands down
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: palm representing paper. And so the cyclical nature of this
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: is that rock beats scissors. So if someone throws rock
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: and the person's beat scissors, the person who throws rock wins.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Scissor beats paper. I mean you, if someone throws scissors
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: and someone beats paper, then scissors wins, and paper beats rock.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: So if someone throws rock and someone throws paper, then
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: paper wins. And that makes it a cyclical competition with
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: no clear advantage, advantageous symbol to throw, no gesture that
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: you would throw that's gonna guarantee you the win, because
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: you might hear rock beats paper, paper beat scissors and think, well,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: I'm always gonna throw rock, but paper beats rock, right,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: So if someone if you start with rock, thinking that
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: someone might throw scissors. Then if they throw paper then
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: they win. So that's kind of the nature of the
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: game there.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Now some people throw hand gestures when they finish
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: saying scissors, so they go rock paper scissors and throw
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: some throw them on the fourth downward gesture after scissors,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: and so we go rock paper scissors, then go or
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: some ad shoot like we did earlier, which I'm pretty
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: sure is morphed into shoe for some people, which indicates
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: throwing the symbol on the fourth gesture or the fourth
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: downward movement. The rules should be agreed ahead of time,
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: so that's something you're always going to want to make
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: sure you do. Yeah, as like say, are we throwing
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: on shoot? Are we throwing on you know, and you
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: want to make sure that that's really clear for everybody
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: that's playing.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Now, the two people who are playing, they do this
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: downward gestures with their closed fist, then they form their
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: fist into some gesture. If one person clearly beats the other,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: that is like for example, someone throws scissors, the other
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: throws paper, then the scissors wins, then the competition is over.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: One person wins. Sometimes they will do an accompanying gesture
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: to show their victory. So rock might close on the scissors,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: like they will sort of gently press on the top
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: of the scissors to close them. Scissors might cut the paper,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: the paper might cover the rock. Have you played that
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: way where you sort of like fall up.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like, no, see, I want to make sure
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: you know I one that's right.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a confirmation that victory has been had. Sometimes
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: times people will play two to three games in a
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: row and get sort of a majority. So best two
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: out of three is how they play it. And if
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: both people throw, if it's the case that there is
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: not a clear winner because both people throw the same symbol,
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  Speaker 1: just rematch and go again. It takes only about five
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: seconds to play, so you can play through dozens of
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: these games in a short period of time if compelled
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: to do so.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty wonderful. Some people also play with their feet.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: Rock is feet together, paper is feet spread out to
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: the sides, and scissors is feet spread out one in
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: front of the other.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: So they'll kind of do you know, rock, paper scissors
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: shoot and then they'll they'll jump their legs into some position.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: I could see this being relevant for people who have
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: limb differences or for people who just prefer to do
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: larger motions. Maybe kids would enjoy this version. There's also
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: like a whole body version where you can form your
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: body into something. But it does seem like it'd be
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: pretty easy to guess what someone's going to do and
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: try and beat them if you you could take that
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: long to form your body into some shape. But that's
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: that's how the game is played at least. But why
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: talk about this thing?
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we want to talk about this because it's
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: an interesting game that has been based in game theory
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: because there is there's no clear winning strategy. As one
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: paper described it, it is quote a basic model system
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: for studying decision making in non cooperative strategic interactions.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and people have researched this game. So in twenty fourteen,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: there was a paper in Scientific Reports where they asked
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty students because they always use students,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: they asked three hundred and sixty students to compete in
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: groups of six for three hundred games. Oh my god,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: it feels like it would get a little exhausting, and
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: they wanted to measure how students responded. So part of
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: this is they were testing a game theory called the
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Nash equilibrium theory, and the Nash equilibrium theory predicts that
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: in a system with random outcomes such as this one,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: people will throw random gestures evenly distributed across the options
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: that they have. So there should be just about a
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: third of the time you get one gesture, a third
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: at the time to get another gesture, a third of
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: the time you get the third gesture, and that those
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: are going to happen fairly randomly. Actually, people would just
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: kind of throw those gestures.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. However, that's not what was what they observed. Although
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: the distributions were fairly even, roughly thirty three percent per gesture,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: or about a third chances random chance, rock was slightly
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: favored as closer to thirty six percent, although this was
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: not statistically significant. Further, and most importantly, people were more
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: likely to use the same gesture if they had just
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: won using that gesture, and were more likely to change
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: their gesture if they lost using that gesture.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: So where the theory would have predicted that their choices
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: were random, that they would just sort of do whatever,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: it wasn't random. It was actually governed by the consequences
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: of whether they lost or won using that gesture which
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: reminds me of something.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes, this is operant learning. When the purpose is
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: to win, winning, it becomes a conditional reinforcer, and when
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: winning happens, it is more likely to select similar behavior. Yeah,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Whereas when a gesture fails, the loss functions as an
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: aversive consequence, the gesture is less likely to be used.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: So it actually maps on perfectly with our observations and
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: understanding of choice making that people have, because that's how
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: behavior works, and we have seen it work a million
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: different ways, a million different times. And this is just
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: one more feather in the cap. I guess of a
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: successful theory that accurately describes human behavior.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty pretty impressive.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Of course, people might reason their way to all sorts
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: of plan strategies, tactics, but in the end it remains
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: a simple, fast, easy to understand strategy for making a
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: choice between two things or two people, and for the
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: most part, it's very fair.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: I will say this. Not too long ago, I did
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: say a fifteen symbol version of this. Have you seen
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: this version?
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: I've not seen this?
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: No, okay, it is just so everybody is clear on this.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: It is rock gun lightning, devil, dragon, water, air, paper, sponge, wolf, tree, human, snake, scissors, fire.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: That's so many and does that just start over like.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: It's yeah, I just get it just goes back. So like,
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: so basically rock beats fire, fire beats scissors, scissors beats snakes,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: snake beats human, which it's great, human beats tree, tree
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: beats wolf, wolf beats sponge, sponge beats paper, paper beats air,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: air beats water, water beats dragon, dragon beats devil, devil
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: beats lightning, lightning beats gun, and then gun beats rock.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: I don't understand the logic of that, but okay, and.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Then they all are related, so like every I think
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: every action can beat five and then gets beaten by
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: six or something like that. Wild, Okay, it's something weird
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: like that.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, weird, strange, Okay, fun, well, yeah, I mean
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: I think you know, the purpose of this is just
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: like it's kind of a fun thing. It's interesting that
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: this is a thing that's existed as long as it
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: has and it does also kind of make sense, like
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: it's it's simple, it's very easy to do, it's very
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: easy to understand the rules, and people use a lot
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: of time to be like, all right, who's gonna be
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: the person who unloads the groceries from the car? Rock? Paper, scissors,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: or they'll say, you know, row shambau. They're like, who
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: is the person who gets to open presence first? Row shamba?
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: And then they'll if it's a quick you know, the
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: winner gets the thing or the loser has to do
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: the thing. Whatever the situation takes five seconds to do.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Everyone understands how it works, and like there is some
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: kind of interesting unpacking of how this relates to human behavior.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: As we said, like technically rock is slightly favored, I
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: would guess I would guess that part of the reason
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: that rock is is slightly favored more often is your
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: fist is already in the shape of rock when you start,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: and it is therefore the lowest effort gesture that you
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: can throw. And if you're trying to think while you're
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: you're preparing to play, while you're doing the downward gestures,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: you're trying to figure out, like what is my opponent
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: gonna throw? How can I win? If you haven't made
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: a decision, you can just leave your hand in a fist,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: and so like, I I think that's probably why it's
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: slightly more favored is that it's the least effort, the
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: least committal choice that you can make. And it's sort
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: of I think falls in line with and we've talked
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: about before that like sometimes people generally feel better about
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: not taking action and having things go badly than taking
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: action and having the potential for things to go badly. Right,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: So like they're like, I would rather not risk doing
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: something and having a bad outcome than doing nothing and
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: having a bad outcome because at least I didn't actively
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: cause it. And so I think there's probably like a
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: sort of related feature of this, But anyway, point being that,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: like the basic principle here is the successful thing happens
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: more often, the unsuccessful thing happens less often. This does
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: bring me back to yet another example of why I
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: hate so much, the saying the past behavior is the
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: best predicular future behavior. I'm like, not if you lost
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: at Rock, paper scissors, because based on that saying, if
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: you lost, that's the best predictor of you doing that
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: same thing again, And the data clearly show it's not
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: you're actually going to do something different because you learned it.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: It's the the past learning is the best predictor of
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: future behavior, right, and that's saying is dumb? Just one
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: more thing I think to the icing on the cake here.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think it's reasonable. I think it's fair.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, I think that's what we have to
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: say about rock paper scissors. Anything you would like to
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: add before we wrap this one up?
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: No, you want to do one more round?
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Uh? Okay, let's see if we go now that I
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: was less like.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, ready, all right, rock paper scissors. Shoot we did
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: it again again.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, scissors people.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Apparently we're scissors brothers.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Oh boy? All right. Well, if you'd like to tell
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: us your thoughts on rock paper scisors, you can email
• 15:43
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• 15:47
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• 15:50
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• 15:55
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• 15:57
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• 16:00
  Speaker 1: of them so much. You can also, as I said,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: tell a friend. That's a helpful way to spread it about.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much to my team of people for
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: helping me make this writing in fact checking from Shane
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: and myself, our social media coordinator Zimma Wilson, our audio
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: engineer executive producer is Justin and thank you for recording
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: with me today.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Shane. Yeah, thank you for having me. This is so fun, perfect.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, I think that's all you have to say.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Happy rock, paper scissoring and it's Shane better on this
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: one now. Why we Do what we Do many is out.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Bye.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening and
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: we hope you have an awesome day.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Zero