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Interview: Netflix wants to become the ‘place to play a story’ · The Game Business Show

0:00
SPEAKER_00: The casting department that works on our game is the same casting department
0:03
SPEAKER_00: that is helping cast films and series.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: This could have been a big swing and a miss, too.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, honestly, it was a hypothesis that was not based on Any data, it was big.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: Based on our guts.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: When people talk about the elusive non-gamer that we're trying to bring
0:17
SPEAKER_00: into our industry, sometimes people Extremely over.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: Oversimplify or lower the bar too low on all the other aspects of what make a story
0:26
SPEAKER_00: or an experience interesting, right?
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, it's like, okay, to get a non-gamer, It has to be official.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: Fisher Price baby toy.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to The Game Business show today we are talking
0:38
SPEAKER_01: with netflix now we've covered netflix quite a bit and I'm personally quite excited
0:43
SPEAKER_01: by what they're doing Rather than try to take on.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: On playstation and xbox netflix is instead building games for its existing audience
0:49
SPEAKER_01: of around 700 million people that's a really good thing I believe for
0:53
SPEAKER_01: the video game industry it's audience expanding rather than competitive
0:57
SPEAKER_01: And it's trying to achieve that through signing kids games like Peppa Pig
1:00
SPEAKER_01: and Sesame Street.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: It's working on big mainstream partnerships such as with its recent FIFA World Cup game.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: It is developing party and puzzle games similar to what Jackbox Games is doing.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: In fact,
1:10
SPEAKER_01: some of those Jackbox Games titles are actually included in Netflix
1:14
SPEAKER_01: But it's also doing this through narrative games.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: And its latest effort in the narrative space is a game called Unhinged,
1:20
SPEAKER_01: developed by Netflix's Night School Studio.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: It is a horror game.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: It's only about 30 minutes long.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: It stars Sadie Sink, who is famous for Stranger Things.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: She's also in the new Spider-Man movie.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: Zoe Kravitz, who is known for The Batman and Divergent and Fantastic Beasts and Big Little Lies.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: And Troy Baker, who is of course no stranger to the world of video games.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: In this game you play a as Ava who is trapped in an apartment building during a storm.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: There's no power and there's a killer on the loose.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: The game is played on the screen, I played it on my laptop.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: You use your phone as the controller but it's more than just selecting where to go,
1:50
SPEAKER_01: it's also part of the experience.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: The game is in first person.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: Ava has her phone on her and people will call her,
1:56
SPEAKER_01: text her and that will come through your phone.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Ava also uses her phone's flashlight and again you control that with your actual phone.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: It reminded me a bit of those found phone games which Night School has in fact made before.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: They made a found phone game based on the TV show Mr.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: Robot.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: If you don't know what a found phone game is,
2:12
SPEAKER_01: it's basically a story based smartphone game which simulates a stranger's lost phone
2:16
SPEAKER_01: And you explore the app.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: Apps, you send messages, you read emails and so Anyway, I found unhindered.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: To be very clever.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: I liked how it bridges the worlds between a classic Netflix original TV show and video games.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: And I'm now interested to see where this goes next.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: And who better to ask than Sean Crankle.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: He is the chief creative officer and studio director at Night School Studio.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: He's also the general manager for narrative games at Netflix all up.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: So he's working with internal and external people on building these experiences.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: And here he is.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Hello, Sean.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: Excited to be here.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: I see that you've bought the new Star Fox.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: How are you finding that?
2:52
SPEAKER_00: Man, it is exactly what I wanted out of that game.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: I am in the mode right now where I just need something that I can be very focused on.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: A short, easy to play, yet highly polished thing.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: And I think those guys just killed it.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: I normally have a,
3:07
SPEAKER_01: it's Goldeneye at the moment,
3:08
SPEAKER_01: I normally have a Star Fox post, but I just love Guha and Karthik Bala.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: I always think they're under sort of appreciated gems in this industry.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: The fact that Belong Studios is making the game, I think really excites me.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, I met those guys in like 2000.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: And then they did, we worked together on the Crash Bandicoot GBA game together.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: So it's been a minute.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Ah.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: First game I played of theirs was the Tony Hawk's GBA game, which was incredible.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Unbelievable.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: It was really brilliant.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: That's, that we're not here to talk about.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: About Starbox.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: Look at another game that came out around the same time,
3:42
SPEAKER_01: Unhinged, which I have now fully experienced.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: How has the launch gone?
3:46
SPEAKER_01: How has it done for you so far?
3:48
SPEAKER_00: It's been great.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: It's weird because I feel like it's been out only about a day, but we're about a week in.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: And so last week has been incredible.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: Of course, it's nerve wracking to launch anything at all.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: Launching anything Stacking is hard, but then...
4:02
SPEAKER_00: then putting it on a relatively new platform with a design modality
4:07
SPEAKER_00: that nobody's really done before with A story that goes places
4:11
SPEAKER_00: that our studio has never really gone before.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: It all makes you kind of bite your fingernails a bit, but it's gone super, super well.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: So we're really happy.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: You've got a platform of what I think,
4:21
SPEAKER_01: what's the numbers that I've heard thrown around,
4:23
SPEAKER_01: like 700 million or something people that have access to it.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: And you're suddenly in front of such a huge,
4:28
SPEAKER_01: like no other games platform I think has that kind of Audiences.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: It's just terrifying, I guess.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: It is just I mean, you know, discoverability in this industry right now is so, so difficult.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: And so to have at least that be a little bit easier,
4:44
SPEAKER_00: it's not a ton easier,
4:45
SPEAKER_00: but to have that be easier just
4:46
SPEAKER_00: because we already know people are are showing up there to watch a movie or a show
4:51
SPEAKER_00: and they're in a certain mindset.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: It's it's nerve wracking,
4:54
SPEAKER_00: but it's also like that's one one box we can check off that if we're on
4:58
SPEAKER_00: a normal storefront would be more difficult.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: So we're yeah,
5:01
SPEAKER_00: I think I think we kind of leaned into that and go,
5:03
SPEAKER_00: all right,
5:03
SPEAKER_00: how can we Woo folks who are already there for one type of behavior,
5:08
SPEAKER_00: AKA to watch a show or a film or even more specifically a genre thing,
5:12
SPEAKER_00: and then give them a little bit of something that will scratch
5:14
SPEAKER_00: that itch automatically.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it is both helpful and definitely scary at the same time.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: I think it's exciting.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I liked,
5:22
SPEAKER_01: I like how the phone is more than just the controller in this,
5:24
SPEAKER_01: you know, it is, it's part of the experience.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: Because obviously I remember when you worked on the Mr. Robot
5:30
SPEAKER_01: found phone thing, right?
5:31
SPEAKER_01: So I, Feels like an evolution.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Evolution of the found phone genre in a way, even though it's not, it's more than that.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: Can I just cut you off to say that we have talked about this as a spiritual sequel
5:41
SPEAKER_00: to that title so I love that you brought that up because nobody brings
5:44
SPEAKER_00: that up anymore and I don't even think you can get it on the App Store anymore
5:47
SPEAKER_00: but it's one of our favorite titles especially because And for those
5:51
SPEAKER_00: that don't know.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: Know what it was, it was basically you find a And a phone.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: Phone from the hacker group F Society and it's like a burner phone of theirs
5:59
SPEAKER_00: and they puppet you to participate in major events from the first season.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: And what was so fun about it that we found was like because it was just text
6:07
SPEAKER_00: and photos and interactions that felt more Intrinsically un - understood,
6:12
SPEAKER_00: I guess, by players than And some esoteric.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: Esoteric input like here's how you run around and do combat or whatever.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: It closed the gap on the uncanny valley,
6:21
SPEAKER_00: where it was just like, oh, this just feels kind of real to people.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: And so we wanted to tap back into that thing for this.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: So, sorry.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: Quick aside, I'm glad you brought that game up.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, I was going to ask if it was,
6:30
SPEAKER_01: you did answer my question, or was it a natural evolution of that?
6:33
SPEAKER_01: And I guess it was because obviously in this game,
6:34
SPEAKER_01: for those that haven't played it yet,
6:36
SPEAKER_01: is use the phone to decide which directions you go in
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SPEAKER_01: and what items you can interact with.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: But And also people will call you.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: Call you on the phone and you can go through text messages in there and it sort
6:46
SPEAKER_01: of It brings the world out.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: Out of the screen, which I just thought was very clever.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: It was very fun.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: And also at one point the screen cracks and I genuinely got,
6:55
SPEAKER_01: oh no, I've only just had it fixed.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: The uh um It's very fun.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: But you talked about a moment ago trying to do something that might speak to
7:04
SPEAKER_01: the Netflix audience as much as anything else.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: And of course, I can imagine the cast is part of that, a very starry A -list cast.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: Cast.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: Now, did Netflix help you with that?
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Most definitely.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: I think that the cool thing that I've loved about being in Netflix or one of
7:19
SPEAKER_00: the cool things is just the A combination of all.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: All these departments and not really having a big tall wall between everything
7:26
SPEAKER_00: from casting to product or whatever,
7:29
SPEAKER_00: like everybody Everybody really can collaborate with each other in
7:31
SPEAKER_00: a pretty straightforward way.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: And so the casting department that works on our game is the same casting department
7:36
SPEAKER_00: that is helping cast films and series.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: And so when we started this game, it definitely They came from the anger.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: Angle of how do we approach fans of thrillers and horror Film and show.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: Shows in a way that is approachable and novel and make an experience
7:50
SPEAKER_00: that feels like it caters to those folks.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: And having a great cast was part of that for us.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: I think we wanted to make it feel like it could be an event.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: We wanted to lean into things that would draw folks in, Like a certain time.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: Type of mechanics or a story that you can understand very quickly that's not a big lore dump.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: And so fundamentally, yeah,
8:07
SPEAKER_00: getting this cast,
8:08
SPEAKER_00: we were very fortunate and got to work with Netflix closely on that.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's got this starry cast.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: The gameplay is relatively It's very accessible.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: There's a mode in it where you can just not die,
8:18
SPEAKER_01: you can just experience a story if that's what you want.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: This is obviously a play to reach beyond And what we would consider.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: Consider traditional gamers.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: Do you think you've managed that so far?
8:26
SPEAKER_01: Have you found that a lot of the people that are playing this are from
8:28
SPEAKER_01: a different world to the ones that perhaps we've worked with in the past?
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: And that feels great because this could have been a big swing and a miss too.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: Like, honestly, it was a hypothesis that was not based on any data.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: It was based on our guts or it was based on some data.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: But the point being, like,
8:44
SPEAKER_00: we know there is a massive audience I mean,
8:48
SPEAKER_00: we're seeing in this last year,
8:51
SPEAKER_00: all of this amazing horror renaissance happening on the film side.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: And we, you know,
8:56
SPEAKER_00: about a year and a half ago,
8:57
SPEAKER_00: we're like,
8:57
SPEAKER_00: I believe that there are folks out there who love that type of
9:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really interesting to see the story heck out of that stuff But
9:06
SPEAKER_00: the thought here was can we make it so that the mechanics And the way you interact
9:20
SPEAKER_00: with the story are extremely novel and immersive,
9:25
SPEAKER_00: but the skills that it takes are very, you know, it's super approachable.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: And so first one out the gate,
9:30
SPEAKER_00: at least with this new sort of model or approach is, I think, definitely helping.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: I think that the duration of how long you play it helps as well.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: And even us kind of telegraphing that to people like,
9:40
SPEAKER_00: hey this is only going to be 30 -40 minutes of your time.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: I've heard everything up to an hour down to even 20 minutes and I think that that is
9:47
SPEAKER_00: a lot of the language that folks
9:49
SPEAKER_00: who are consuming streaming linear media are already familiar with so we tried
9:53
SPEAKER_00: to lean into a lot Yeah,
9:55
SPEAKER_01: I was going to say,
9:55
SPEAKER_01: it's a fairly short experience,
9:56
SPEAKER_01: but I was surprised at the number of names in the credits.
9:59
SPEAKER_01: Wasn't there like eight production babies in there as well?
10:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's...
10:02
SPEAKER_01: There's, we got babies, we got...
10:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean, some of those are like dogs and cats too.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm kidding.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay, yeah.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there were a ton of folks who helped out on this, both internally and externally.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: The game,
10:12
SPEAKER_00: I think,
10:13
SPEAKER_00: really started in earnest about a year and a half ago, but there were other...
10:17
SPEAKER_00: Iterations that led up to it from everything from different stories
10:20
SPEAKER_00: to different Uses of those mechanisms.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: Mechanics.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: And so the kernel of it was always like,
10:25
SPEAKER_00: can we crack first person, but on a phone, which was It's certainly a challenge.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: Challenge that was It's scary, but...
10:31
SPEAKER_00: but a fun one.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: One, can we make it so that first person feels good on a phone,
10:35
SPEAKER_00: A, B, when we found And the audio interface.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: Interplay between And how we could feed on.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Audio into the phone and back and forth, we're like, that feels interesting.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: And then And see that flashlight.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: Flashlight was just continually And intriguing.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Intriguing That's a very interesting concept for us.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: Us.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: So I give all that background to say that You know, some of those teams that you.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: You see that we had worked with,
10:53
SPEAKER_00: Worked on even prior iterations of it and some of the work never made it in,
10:56
SPEAKER_00: some of it made it all the way there,
10:58
SPEAKER_00: but ultimately like everybody helped us get to kind of where we are.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: The other thing is there's a lot of Netflix folks in there as well in
11:05
SPEAKER_00: the central function who helped really get it across the line.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess with Netflix,
11:09
SPEAKER_01: I understand that when they release anything,
11:11
SPEAKER_01: it's in every language, it's everywhere.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: So was it a bigger production than it might appear or was it still a relatively tight team?
11:18
SPEAKER_00: It's a bigger production than it might appear in that there are different types
11:22
SPEAKER_00: of teams And resources that we had not tapped into in the past.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: So I think that,
11:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:27
SPEAKER_00: like the art fidelity of the title and aspects of some of the camera work,
11:31
SPEAKER_00: things like that are things that were very new for this studio and
11:34
SPEAKER_00: that we worked closely with some other folks on.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: But ultimately it was still,
11:38
SPEAKER_00: I'd say, a very core central team that carried it all the way through.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: And that, yeah,
11:44
SPEAKER_00: to your point about things like Localization,
11:47
SPEAKER_00: product,
11:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:49
SPEAKER_00: all of the marketing and comms and all the things that sort of surround that.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: These are things that,
11:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:54
SPEAKER_00: five years ago when the studio was independent,
11:56
SPEAKER_00: you'd have somebody wearing 93 hats that sat on top of each other.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: And now we're very fortunate to have this incredible,
12:02
SPEAKER_00: you know, Netflix It's a machine that's so.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: So able to help support it and launch it in a way that we couldn't have done otherwise.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: What are the biggest pain points in making this game?
12:10
SPEAKER_01: What's the trickiest bit?
12:12
SPEAKER_00: I think it was,
12:13
SPEAKER_00: and this is probably the least sexy sounding answer because I wish it was like, oh,
12:17
SPEAKER_00: there was this big one dramatic moment during production that was crazy,
12:20
SPEAKER_00: but it was more of like the meat and potatoes of it because when we,
12:25
SPEAKER_00: and what I mean by that is like,
12:26
SPEAKER_00: even just the language of how the player character moves and the language
12:31
SPEAKER_00: of Should we have branching dialogue or not because spoiler
12:35
SPEAKER_00: the title does not have branching dialogue but in the beginning it did
12:38
SPEAKER_00: and it felt cumbersome and weird or giving the player too much ability
12:44
SPEAKER_00: to navigate you know freely it felt weird and so there was just I think
12:48
SPEAKER_00: the refinements of The Game
12:51
SPEAKER_00: The language of the game were some of the biggest challenges because in
12:55
SPEAKER_00: the beginning you go, okay, we have a phone and we have this crazy story.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: We could do everything.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: We could do a fake full phone interface with dating apps and all these other things on it.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: We, and if it's a narrative.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Narrative game, And of course it should have.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: Have branching dialogue and there's internal debates about that forever.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: And we went, you know what?
13:12
SPEAKER_00: No, the agency the player will have will be more about whether
13:15
SPEAKER_00: or not they're making calls or accepting calls or whether or not They go to
13:19
SPEAKER_00: a certain place and reveal a certain thing and that actually branches the story
13:22
SPEAKER_00: under the hood but it took a while to get there and I think it took a while
13:26
SPEAKER_00: to get there because the the ability to do.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Do a lot of player verbs was in direct competition with the pacing
13:35
SPEAKER_00: that we were trying to keep and so we had to be very subtractive as we went.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: We wanted the pacing to be quick.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: We want you to be stressed and moving and if you have 30 little toys on your phone
13:45
SPEAKER_00: And it kind of boxes.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: Boxes with that.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: So that was probably the biggest challenge, finding the language.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: I did read that if I'd have decided to go that way first,
13:52
SPEAKER_01: then I might have discovered something first,
13:54
SPEAKER_01: which might change maybe a phone call or whatever.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: And I did read that.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: And that's all really smart because you're not putting that choice on the player.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: The player's made that choice, not realizing they necessarily made the choice.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: It's a good way of simplifying it, I guess.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: Ahem.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about, you mentioned sort of this is the first.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: Is there an ambition to go bigger and deeper with this?
14:14
SPEAKER_01: Could there be an unhinged TV series?
14:15
SPEAKER_01: How do you see it?
14:17
SPEAKER_00: I think for this game,
14:18
SPEAKER_00: for other games that we're starting to ideate on and things that are in
14:21
SPEAKER_00: the pipeline,
14:22
SPEAKER_00: like each one has a core philosophy that is driven by something
14:26
SPEAKER_00: that is very creative,
14:27
SPEAKER_00: but they also have a series of sort of hopeful bets and learnings that come out
14:32
SPEAKER_00: the other side of them, right?
14:33
SPEAKER_00: And so this one, there's a lot that came out of it.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: It was everything from the base level mechanics and input to Is this, is horror going?
14:41
SPEAKER_00: Going to resonate?
14:42
SPEAKER_00: Could this turn into something linear?
14:44
SPEAKER_00: What is the right length of the game?
14:47
SPEAKER_00: Should we sequelize it or anthologyize it?
14:50
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of those things that we're looking at right now.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: And so I think It's not just can we turn this IP into something that can show up as
14:58
SPEAKER_00: a film or a TV show,
15:00
SPEAKER_00: which certainly is being talked about,
15:02
SPEAKER_00: but nothing is remotely like, you know, real yet.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: It's just like there's conversations around it.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: And so when we look at that, but when we also look at But like, wow.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: Wow, a phone is a controller doesn't actually have to be a hindrance.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: It can be something extremely cool and novel.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: And players, if you can And deliver it to them.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: Them in an elegant way that feels pretty painless,
15:21
SPEAKER_00: you can tell all kinds of stories through this.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
15:23
SPEAKER_00: I think it's really branching out from this into form factor,
15:28
SPEAKER_00: into delivery method,
15:30
SPEAKER_00: like doing a 30 or 40 minute thing is not something that will be gospel.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: It could be anything from episodic to What could a multiplayer version of this look like?
15:40
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot of really interesting things that we're kind of learning from now.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm gathering from your enthusiasm that you feel like you've found something here
15:46
SPEAKER_01: that can go in multiple different directions.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes, there's like a kernel.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: And that's the part where I said earlier,
15:50
SPEAKER_00: like the language of how to play the game stuff,
15:54
SPEAKER_00: even though it feels so Oh, simple and rudimentary.
15:57
SPEAKER_00: Rudimentary on the surface,
15:58
SPEAKER_00: like you probably like, oh,
15:59
SPEAKER_00: you could be as reductive as this and go like,
16:01
SPEAKER_00: it's missed with talking once in a while.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: Or, you know,
16:04
SPEAKER_00: like you could look at it through that lens,
16:06
SPEAKER_00: but I don't think It is like finding how to move fluidly and have people like we did
16:11
SPEAKER_00: so much playtesting,
16:12
SPEAKER_00: not just with folks who are adept at playing,
16:15
SPEAKER_00: you know, Resident Evil Village, but folks who have never picked up a game before.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: The fact that all of them can get through it and experience the thing as intended,
16:23
SPEAKER_00: it feels like a big win and a foundational thing.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: But there's a lot of I don't know,
16:28
SPEAKER_00: I always use a weird metaphor for like or analogy of like Lily pads.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: How many Lily pads can we jump to from the current one we're on?
16:35
SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot we can jump to from what this just taught us.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm a big Resident Evil fan.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: And obviously this was compared to Resident Evil Requiem.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: This is relatively,
16:43
SPEAKER_01: you know, simplistic, but it still has the same The Game, Horror, Compassion.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: Components.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: We can talk about horror,
16:48
SPEAKER_01: but actually what I was going to talk about is that this excites me from
16:51
SPEAKER_01: an industry journalist point of view.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: We're talking about a non-gaming audience sort of here.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: Obviously gamers will be interested too,
16:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure, but what Netflix is doing and also what Amazon Amazon's doing to a degree.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Degree and what Next Playground is doing, it feels like the proper industry expanding.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: That's what it feels like to me,
17:04
SPEAKER_01: reaching people who maybe,
17:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:06
SPEAKER_01: might play on a phone but probably don't have an Nintendo or a PlayStation or a PC
17:09
SPEAKER_01: or whatever.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: How hard have you found getting into that mindset that,
17:13
SPEAKER_01: hang on, these people may not know anything about games at all.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: We need to make sure that this is as accessible to them.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: I feel fortunate that our team Jim, in general.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: General has always kind of tried to approach it that way.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: Even if some of the games haven't looked like it,
17:27
SPEAKER_00: I think our team has always gone like, And like.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: And now when we look at the rest of the narrative team inside of Netflix games,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: there is a There's a, there's a difference.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: There's a difference between sort of We have a
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Player fantasy or the fantasy of what a story or genre or world can bring and
17:45
SPEAKER_00: then mechanical depth.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of the time when people talk about the elusive non - non-gamer
17:50
SPEAKER_00: that we're trying to bring into our industry, sometimes people Extremely over.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: Oversimplify or lower the bar too low on all the other aspects of what make a story
18:00
SPEAKER_00: or an experience interesting, right?
18:02
SPEAKER_00: Like it's like, okay, to get a non-gamer, It has to be efficient.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: Fisher Price baby toy.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: And like, I don't think we need to look at it that way.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that for our team, it's really more looking at What is the emotion?
18:14
SPEAKER_00: Emotional depth and core and what's exciting about either a particular franchise or
18:19
SPEAKER_00: a world or a genre, in this case, chasing thriller and horror stuff.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: And going, let's not pull any punches on the story or the presentation.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: Like the game goes places.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: It does.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: It's just how do we how do we let you touch that easily?
18:33
SPEAKER_00: And so So I think it's a.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: it's a kind of a hard mind shift to take because it is easy to conflate complexity
18:41
SPEAKER_00: with like Uh, more elevated.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: Elevated air quotes, you know, like the types of stories or world.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: But I don't think you need to do that.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: I think we can shave off a lot of the
18:50
SPEAKER_00: mechanical rough.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: Roughness or the turn offs of I love video game language.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: Language and let people access those types of stories pretty well.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: And then And the other thing is just like,
19:01
SPEAKER_00: like it helps being inside of Netflix, seeing what does resonate.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: And so the Venn diagram overlap of like fans of horror or thrillers or true crime
19:10
SPEAKER_00: or romance or whatever it may be, Like we, we.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: We can go, all right, what are some mechanics that can And match up nicely.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: Nicely with that.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: And so this game being out and this now not being
19:20
SPEAKER_00: a theoretical conversation anymore,
19:21
SPEAKER_00: but rather us seeing that it's resonating feels really good because it can lead to
19:25
SPEAKER_00: the next ones.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: Last year you did Froglets, which was the Black Mirror episode play thing, was based on.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: In various ways now, you've been bridging this gap.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: We talked about Mr. Robots there.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: You've been bridging this gap between the linear and interactive storytelling.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: Do you have like a goal?
19:39
SPEAKER_01: Is there something specifically you're looking to achieve?
19:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, creatively, it's...
19:44
SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be stupid sounding,
19:46
SPEAKER_00: but I just want to make really cool stuff that excites people.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm probably naive in that regard.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: I want to just make sure that our teams are bringing people stuff that they're like,
19:59
SPEAKER_00: wow, I can't believe I got to The experience.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: The, like the.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: Feeling of a great show or a film,
20:06
SPEAKER_00: but meaningfully with player verbs sort of added and not just a binary go left,
20:12
SPEAKER_00: go right type of a thing.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: And so, So yeah, even with Throng.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: Thronglets, the impetus for that wasn't just, oh, cool.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: You know,
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Charlie Brooker is going to have a game and a show,
20:20
SPEAKER_00: so maybe we could ape that game because there's version of what made make
20:23
SPEAKER_00: the series fun.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: So we wanted to bring that series.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: Sinister, dark thing.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: And we wanted to have it have heart.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: And ultimately,
20:40
SPEAKER_00: we wanted to make people maybe even cry at the end of playing that tiny game
20:44
SPEAKER_00: that was connected to that.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: That's a meandering way of me saying That on...
20:48
SPEAKER_00: at a creative level, it's just like, can we let people So, um...
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, push and pull at story.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: And then I think just at a bit.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: Business level, each one of these titles will serve different things.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: Some of them will be to key up a new IP.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: Some of them will be to try a new type of interactivity and be sort of like
21:08
SPEAKER_00: the bleeding edge of what the platform can be if we're thinking about it through
21:11
SPEAKER_00: the lens of being a first party studio.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Some of it is longer engagement, so that might change different release models.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: But each one, And we're still kind of in.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: In the learning mode with them.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: So I want to make sure that While we're in these early days of learning
21:24
SPEAKER_00: that it's rooted at something that has a lot of heart,
21:26
SPEAKER_00: you know, and has character to it.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: That's what I was going to ask is, how do you know if these things have been successful?
21:32
SPEAKER_01: Do you have some internal metrics and how you can work that out?
21:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a few.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: And that's another thing that's being still sort of that is evolving.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: And it's very similar to the early days.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: Days of Netflix, like the success metrics change, you know, have changed over time.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think that right now, the thing for this one that we're so thrilled by
21:50
SPEAKER_00: What I'm thrilled by is just,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:52
SPEAKER_00: without giving specific numbers,
21:53
SPEAKER_00: this has been a very big sort of,
21:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:56
SPEAKER_00: top of funnel for people who have not tried a game at all on Netflix,
22:01
SPEAKER_00: let alone a cloud game,
22:02
SPEAKER_00: and then let alone an and experience as as, you know, rated M as this thing.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: So getting lots of players is, for me, a great success story.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: I was playing this the other day, and my studio is based in my parents' old house.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: And my mom comes in and sees me playing it, and I just caught her playing it earlier.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: She's definitely never played a game on Netflix before or anything Yeah, outside of solitaire.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: Solitaire on Windows.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Not much at all.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: That means a lot.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: There's an anecdotal piece of evidence.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you're not just in charge of night school.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: You are You're head of narrative.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: Narrative, I think, I don't call it that job title, but at Netflix.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: Does that mean you won't?
22:38
SPEAKER_01: Working with other developers to sort of develop sort of Similar -ish projects.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Projects?
22:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, think of, It's kind of like to.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, so there's four different main kind of verticals or areas of interest for the business.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: One is for kids.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: And so you've seen that there's a very different sort of strategy there and approach
22:55
SPEAKER_00: to the types of titles that ship there.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: And then you've got party and puzzle.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: Puzzle Um, is another one you got.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: Got mainstream,
23:01
SPEAKER_00: which can include a wide swath of different types of experiences and then And
23:05
SPEAKER_00: the narrative and so.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: So I have been sort of And sort of overseeing the narrative.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Narrative vertical for a little over a year now and think of it as like a bunch
23:13
SPEAKER_00: of mini The Game Business.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: And so we have some other internal development stuff that's kicking up,
23:20
SPEAKER_00: but it's very, very early.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: And then And we've got third part.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: Party developers and second party developers that we're going to start working with as well.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: So it's exciting because now we get the opportunity to work with all kinds
23:30
SPEAKER_00: of different, really talented folks out there.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: And there will be definitely more of that that we'll be hearing about
23:35
SPEAKER_00: the next six months or a little longer.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: Really excited.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: Exciting.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: It's always great when you get new competitors coming in and people trying to,
23:42
SPEAKER_01: you know, or maybe we can be a rival to Nintendo or whatever.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: But here this feels really additive to me.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: It isn't competing with God of War.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: This is about the Netflix audience and going, hey, can we get them to interact in this medium?
23:56
SPEAKER_01: This isn't a question.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: I genuinely am quite excited by this developing area of the industry.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: I think it's fascinating.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: That's so exciting to hear.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: And as somebody who has just,
24:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:05
SPEAKER_00: worked in games for a while,
24:06
SPEAKER_00: it is not a relief,
24:08
SPEAKER_00: but it is a nice thing to go,
24:09
SPEAKER_00: let's go play in this smaller yet,
24:12
SPEAKER_00: It's currently smaller because because there's not a lot of competition in it,
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, space that.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: That can reach new folks and that if we shift our mindset
24:20
SPEAKER_00: from How do we just keep improving on what the rest of the game industry does on
24:24
SPEAKER_00: that linear path?
24:24
SPEAKER_00: And instead we go, So how do we we woo folks who love story and or Story world.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: Worlds into some new aspects of interactivity?
24:34
SPEAKER_00: It means we're going to, yeah, we're just going to approach it very differently.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's been a nice It's a nice shift.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Shift.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: Not only is it a good thing from an industry point of view of trying
24:42
SPEAKER_01: to reach new people, but also I do think it's experimental.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: I imagine that's quite satisfying.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: Scary as well, but to try stuff that you don't know if it's going to work.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: and here's the thing the rest of the industry can learn from that as well
24:50
SPEAKER_01: in what they do you
24:51
SPEAKER_01: know,
24:52
SPEAKER_01: I know lots of people are learning from what's going on in Roblox,
24:54
SPEAKER_01: completely different.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: That's doing a different thing as well.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: That's inspiring.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: And I just, anyway.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: I really like it, Sean.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm just playing nice things now.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: And the end.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: Thank And I was going to...
25:03
SPEAKER_01: end by saying, where do you see these experiences going?
25:05
SPEAKER_01: That was going to be my final question.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: You kind of already answered it, but I'll ask it again.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: Where do you see these Experience is going.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: Going?
25:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to get if there's anything new knew that I didn't.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: Didn't I'm expressing that.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: That.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess ideally I would see these experiences seeming less experimental
25:21
SPEAKER_00: and more natural.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: I would love for in a year or two for people to be going, this is This is naturally the place.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: I would that I would go to play a story as it relates relates to narrative at least
25:31
SPEAKER_00: and that playing a story doesn't sound sound weird as opposed to you know like
25:35
SPEAKER_00: because to a a lot of folks they go,
25:36
SPEAKER_00: well what does that mean? Especially folks who are not super fluent in games.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: And so the most ambitious thing here is we start to create new way of interacting
25:46
SPEAKER_00: with story and character That doesn't feel like you have to be trepidatious
25:51
SPEAKER_00: or worried about trying it.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: Or am I going to be good at this or not?
25:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's more just like...
25:56
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: I want to go.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: I want to go try it out the same way that somebody will go to Disneyland and jump on
26:00
SPEAKER_00: a ride or go into an escape room and it just becomes a new form of entertainment.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's where I'd love to see this go.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: I love the fact you started
26:09
SPEAKER_01: with horror,
26:09
SPEAKER_01: which obviously
26:10
SPEAKER_00: is very much the genre
26:13
SPEAKER_01: for everything at the moment.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: ha ha.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: So I think it obviously fits very nicely.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Sean, I've taken up too much of your time.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: I hope the game continues to do well.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: I look forward to what you do next.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Congratulations on its launch.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: And I would love to come back any other time you want.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to have you back.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Thank you to Sean there.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: If you get a chance, do give Unhinged a play.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty simple.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: It'll take about 30 minutes, and I think it is all very interesting.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: Now, if you like that interview, we do them all the time.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: And if you go to thegamebusiness.com, You sign up for f***ing.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Free, you'll get an email every time we put one out, which is every single Tuesday.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: But that's it from us today.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, thank you for tuning in.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: We'll be right back.