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Why Every Author Needs an Editor (with Blake Atwood) · The Daily Writer

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: If someone wants us to say that it takes a village to raise a child, it's a good idea.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: If it's also true that it takes a village to write a book, one of the most important villagers is the editor.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: On today's episode, I talk with my good friend Blake Atwood, who also happens to be a great editor.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: He helps us understand why editors are such an important part of the bookmaking process and how to choose the right editor for your next book project.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Blake also shares an amazing story of how he took a novel that his late uncle had written and brought it to life.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: So stick around.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: He is also an instructor for writing workshops Dallas, which offers wide-ranging seminars and courses for writers of all kinds by a host of excellent teachers.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Many of those are available via live stream.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: On this episode, you'll learn about the different types of editing and why each one is important for your book.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Blake also shares how to find the right editor and how to know when it's time to let go of your book and move on.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Blake turns the tables on me by digging into the reasons I haven't finished my own book yet, and that's definitely a very interesting part of the conversation.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: One of the most fascinating parts of this interview is Blake's story of how he brought his late uncle's novel to life.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: So this episode is packed with great stories and lots of negative wisdom from Blake.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Blake has generally offered Born to Create Podcast Letters a 10% discount on his editing services if you book them before the end of 2018.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: So make sure to get in touch with him if you need an editor for a current or upcoming book project of your own.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you know someone who does.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to take a deeper dive after the episode is over, be sure to check out our show notes at catstanders.net slash blink.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: I also want to mention that today's episode is brought to you by my latest book The Artist 2cade.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: This book makes a great Christmas gift for somebody on your list or even for yourself.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Check it out at catchcanus.net slash 2c.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's a few quick words from today's podcast partners.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm Jim Curning, and I listen to the Born to Create podcast.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Jenny Voss with Fat 80s Band, and you are listening to the Born to Create podcast.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: I am thrilled today to be here chatting with Blake Atwood, my friend and an editor, and so many other things that we'll get into as we go in this episode.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: So Blake, thanks so much for making the time to be on the Born to Create podcast.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Kent, thank you for inviting me.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad to be uh an interviewee, but I look forward to hearing more of these episodes as well from the other people you've talked to.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've recorded probably 10 or 15 episodes so far.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think you will be in the 10 to 15 number range in there.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't totally decided on the order, but I'm recording a bunch of these up front and then kind of figuring out as I go along.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we shall see.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, they've been a ton of fun so far.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you were one of the first people that came to mind as an inter interviewee.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been looking forward to this for a while.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I I appreciate that.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: I would say I'm blushing, but I mean you wouldn't be able to tell if I was.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's very true.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can take a few minutes and take us on a journey from where you've been as a writer and an editor and just the creative things that you've done over the years in terms of writing books and editing.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: So it's funny that you would ask this question because just last night my three-year-old son watched The Chronicles of Narnia for the first time.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: Great movie.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh really good.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: Did you know it it was a book before it was supposed to be?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, most people don't know that.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just kidding.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um But it yeah, he he mostly liked it.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: He's still three, so he it took him a while to get into it.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we're definitely gonna read the books.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: But I I I seem to remember that reading that series as a kid was kind of one of the first memorable experiences that I had with books and stories.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I just thought if I could maybe maybe even back then, if I could just kind of work in this world, not necessarily work in Narnia, even though that would be fun, um, but just work in the world of producing books, that I could be pretty content doing that.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um so eventually uh I really got into English and into writing.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: I was very much encouraged by my senior English teacher, Mrs.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: Holt, uh, to keep pursuing it.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I went on to get a BA a BA in English from Southwestern, which is in Georgetown, Texas, just north of Austin.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh somehow I wound up as a proofreader for the Texas Senate for a session.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that was post-graduation, one of the most interesting jobs I've ever had.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we worked in the basement of the Capitol.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and it it was crazy.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: I I could have some fun stories about that.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds fascinating, actually.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh it it yeah.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um very very interesting time.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh spent I think eight months there.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then uh a point of connection for you and me that I don't know if we've we've ever talked about, or at least at length, is that I went on to work at a church for six years.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: And uh before I became their before I became their communications director, I was their drummer.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so I had played drums for a long time.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: Fellow drummer, yes.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so I worked there uh as kind of their mostly as their young guy on staff, uh, just because I knew how to use a computer, and that turned into a communications job, which with a lot of great people.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um I eventually moved to Dallas in 2010 and uh looked for a few jobs.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: I actually found this writing job on Craigslist, which I would never advise looking at Craigslist for writing jobs.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um but uh I wound up working for this law firm as their copywriter um for about a year, and that led to another job at a faith-based website.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um sort of like, I don't know, Facebook for churches a little bit.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it tried to try to do a whole lot, and we we took a good um, I guess a good stab at trying to do something different in that space.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I was there for three years, uh, but the website just couldn't make it.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so a few months before it shuttered its doors, I uh went full-time freelance as an author, editor, and ghostwriter.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then to get to the point, you said quick two to three minutes.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm probably past it already.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's all good.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's all good.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: In in 2013, I wrote and self-published The Gospel According to Breaking Bad.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: I did that while I was still working at that face-based website.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um and really finishing that book, uh, I got to a point where I thought I just need to finish this.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: I don't care um really what the reception is.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: I just want to finish it to actually say I've written a book.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: And overcoming that significant hurdle really propelled me to think and to believe that I can do what I'm doing now.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um so when I started full-time freelancing in 2014, um, I had I really benefited from a friend who referred a ghostwriting gig to me.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that client, he fortunately he liked the book, um, and he turned into kind of a recurring client that I still have today.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then it's it's been four years since I've gone freelance, and I've been busy ever since, thankfully.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I know that editing is your kind of your bread and butter now.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Would that be accurate to say that?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this may be uh kind of a strange question because we normally don't think of editing as something that you know, when you think of like motorcycle racing or being an astronaut, those seem like exciting professions.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: We don't normally uh put the adjective exciting with things like writing and editing in books.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh however, there's obviously something that really excites you about editing and helping people to release their creative potential and things that you love about it.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So help us understand what is it about editing that you really love and that you find very fulfilling creatively.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's a good question.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: And part of me thinks back to when I was a kid and thinking about what what do I want to do when I grow up.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you'll appreciate this.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: For a while, I thought it would be great to be in a touring band, and then when I'm on the road, I'll just write my books then.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, you know, that that would be the life.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: And then um as God would have it, I think, um, when I worked at that faith-based website, a a good coworker of mine, he was actually in a Christian band for 10 years, and he told me all the stories and um just things that he had gone through.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, no, that is not the life that I would have wanted.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Changed your mind.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, he he enjoyed it, but uh there are just so many things that go along with that that you don't think about.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like all the VH1 behind the music stuff.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um but all that all that said, uh, had someone told me I could be an editor um a lot earlier in my life, I would have pursued it a lot sooner.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um because I didn't really think that that could be an option for me um e even even five years ago.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then uh fortunately at the time when I went freelance, I say fortunately, uh my wife and I did not have any kids then, so we I I kind of had some I guess some freedom to pursue a freelance career.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't know if I would have done that, you know, had we had a a a child then and had the added expense and all that fun stuff.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um but she gave me essentially six months to see if we can make it happen.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and really uh I guess as I I I kind of had the to to teach myself into the profession in a lot of ways, um, relying on some other editors I know and found out through trial and error that I I just enjoy um I enjoy bringing meaning to chaos.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and I'm gonna say that yeah, and that's not to say that every author's manuscript is chaotic, um, because I see manuscripts that that run the gannet from you know first formation to almost ready for publication.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um But uh really uh whether I'm copy editing or doing a developmental edit, uh, I'm trying to get the author's message uh clearly across to the reader.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes that bridge is uh a really long distance to travel.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I I just appreciate trying to figure out what the author is trying to say and then trying to figure out how best can the reader can hear what they're trying to say.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot of sense because I think a lot of people have the idea of editing as you're sitting at a computer and you're basically fixing typos in someone's manuscript, or you're rearranging paragraphs or cutting things out and that kind of a thing.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: But would it be accurate to say that editing I mean it does involve all those things, of course, but it's also part life coaching, part business coaching, part probably counseling, you know.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's kind of all those things wrapped up into one because editing is much more than just fixing typos, obviously.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um especially when you start because I'll have some projects that are just straight copy editing.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: There's not a whole lot of back and forth with the client, but when it when it goes beyond copy editing into developmental and even into you know like the publishing aspect and the marketing aspect, you have to get to know the author.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you have to get to know what what their intentions are.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: And then a lot of the authors I work with are first timers or they're relatively new, so there is a lot of coaching about here's what's I guess preferred is the way to put it, um, you know, uh just so that they can know um maybe what the market expects.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then you talk about being a counselor, I've worked on a few memoirs by now, and it it's hard.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's just those sometimes those are just hard because they're such hard life stories, and I'm supposed to be, you know, this kind of objective observer, um, telling them how to uh kind of write a better story, but then you have to step back and realize, no, these people actually live these experiences.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's their story.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes, yeah, sometimes they're still working through those experiences, and then I have to be the person to say, you know, you may want to shelve this for a while.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um because uh writing is definitely good for um uh I guess it's definitely therapeutic.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but there are some there's some therapeutic writing that should not be seen by other people.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Great point.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Really good point.
• 13:17
  unknown: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: Some of it's just for you.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, me too.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I journal not every day, but you know, two or three times a week.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I did it just last night.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was processing something that happened over the weekend and probably wrote 2,000 words about it, just sort of, you know.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you probably have had that experience as well, and sometimes you just have to sort of get it out to be able to process it.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I have uh a daily journal from uh a specific time period in my life when I and and and kind of after I had gone through it.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: It was really soon after I got through it, I thought, you know, I definitely need to get this out there.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then I'm I'm so glad that uh that it never happened.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like nobody's ever going to see that, nobody needs to see that.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um but at the time I thought, oh, this you know, significant life event happened to me, everybody needs to know about it, but no, no, they don't.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and if they do, I I I probably need you know another decade of removal from that experience before I can even be remotely objective about it.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say someone is a first-time author and they've never worked with an editor before, they don't know what to expect.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Can you break down well, I guess first of all, can you break down for us the different types of editing that someone would encounter in the publishing process, let's say from rough first draft all the way to finished product?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and what I have in mind is, you know, like you have developmental editing, then you all the way to proofreading and so forth.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: The most basic way to look at it is developmental editing, uh copy editing, and proofreading.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um developmental can sometimes be called content editing, um, can sometimes be called structural.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: It takes a really big picture look at a person's book.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um so if you're talking nonfiction, does the organization make sense?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: Does the flow make sense?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, does the entire story that you're trying to tell with your book make sense?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: You're talking fiction, um, does your story make sense?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: Are the uh genre conventions met?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: And if they're not met, is there a reason that you're um doing something different?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um But they take uh you know the book as a whole and give you uh, depending on what you get, because you can also ask for a manuscript critique, which essentially gives you these broad suggestions that the author would then go back and work on.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Or you can get like a very in-depth developmental edit where the editor essentially makes those changes and the author gets to review them and okay them or reject them.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um with copy editing, that's pretty much the the grammar, the spelling, the line by line, almost word-by-word um uh corrections.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then proofreading uh typically and should happen after the book has been formatted for print or digital, um, because errors can be introduced during that process.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um proofreading is the very last stage that somebody would want to have done before they get their book published.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So proofreading happens after it's been been typeset, formatted, the way it's it's going to look in its final form, and that's just kind of a a last attempt to correct any errors at that point.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's very um fine, very fine editing, you know, word by word.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you do all three of those?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I do.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't do a lot of proofreading.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um and usually I I have I have contacts that I can send that out to.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I do copy editing for both fiction and nonfiction, but I only do developmental editing for nonfiction, and even then it's only for uh specific genres.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um I've done a lot of uh self-help, a lot I say a lot, uh self-help business, um, Christian nonfiction.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I've probably done Christian nonfiction the most if I had to look.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: What part of the whole editing process do you enjoy the most?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Would you say it is something like developmental editing where you're kind of working at the macro level with ideas, big concepts, the organization of themes, that kind of a thing?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you enjoy more of the granular aspects of editing?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think it depends on the day and the hour.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: Makes sense.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I think like in hindsight, I really enjoy the developmental editing, but as I'm doing it, it it's so mentally taxing sometimes because you're trying to assess an author's intent and uh while also trying to be that author's you know first reader.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um so it's just a lot of kind of this deep thinking, trying to sit with the manuscript, uh and and a lot of going back and forth with the author.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so I like it, but it's also hard work.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas copy editing is pretty easy work um now that I've been doing it this long.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um so sometimes that's a nice reprieve from the other hard work.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um but it like if you ask me which one, if if I had to pick one over the other, I don't know what I would say.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think I need both um uh uh just to keep the the variegation.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: As you have worked with writers, what would you say some of the biggest mistakes are that particularly first-time writers make, and what advice would you give them to correct those so that when they do work with an editor, it becomes a much easier pathway?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: Difficult questions.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um the first one's not so difficult, the second one is a little bit um the biggest mistake I see newer writers make is rushing the process after they finish their initial draft.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I get I understand that.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: I was the same way when I did the Gospel According Breaking Bad.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: I felt oh thanks.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's a little dated now.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: They need to bring the show back.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just kidding.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that'll be hard without Walter White.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: It would be a little difficult.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I'm still holding out hope for a cameo in Better Call Saul.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be like Roseanne, you know, they'll they'll continue the show without the main character, which would be awkward.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um so newer writers rushing their books.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I get the the motivation because you're so excited that you finish this thing and you probably think it's it's pretty good, it's good enough.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: And and then you contact your editor and you say, Hey, can I get this 50,000-word book edited in a week?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: And if the editor is any good, they're probably scheduled for at least a week, if not a month, um, if not many months.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: And um then you I I see a lot of authors wanting to rush that process.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: And and it's not just the editing process, but getting the cover done, getting the interior design done, um, really setting up your book launch to be as best as best as you can get it with the time and the money that you have, and just doing all the parts that are necessary to really launch a book today.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the way I've talked about this before is that I I used to have some pity line that I should uh find and actually memorize.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, once you finish writing the book, that's like mile one of the marathon that you're actually running.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's definitely a long process.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And but mean, when you get that first draft done, it's really exciting and you just want to have that finished product in your hands.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think maybe a good piece of advice is you get that first draft done, uh, and then you throw yourself a little party, call up some of your friends and your writer friends, celebrate it for a night, and then say, okay, my book will be out in six months to a year.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you really if you really want to put the work into it that that could make it successful, especially if you're self-publishing, then you should probably do at least what the traditional publishers are doing, which means taking the time to make it as good as you can.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are some tips that you would give someone for finding the right type of editor for their book?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, you do editing, uh, but let's say you're writing fiction or you're writing in a genre, let's say that that you don't edit in.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: How do you find a good editor for for your book, particularly if you're not uh if you're not going the traditional route?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're hiring your own editor, what are some things that you should be looking for, or maybe some red flags that would in your mind say, hey, don't hire this person, or things that you would say, you do need to hire this person, you know, that type of thing.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I have a uh a four-step process for finding a good editor.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: And the first step is to ask your writer friends who they have hired as whom they have hired as an editor, and particularly ask the writer friends who write in the same genre that you do.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um sometimes you you know, for copy editing, it's not that necessary to have someone in your same genre.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: But when you're talking about, you know, if you want a developmental edit for a sci-fi novel, then you probably want an editor who has developmentally edited sci-fi novels.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um first step.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Ask people, um, other writers uh who you know to recommend someone.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh typically these editors that are recommended are booked, so they may not have the availability that you need.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: And at that point, I would say for the author to ask that editor for whom they would refer.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because a lot of times editors know other editors, and fortunately, there's enough work to go around.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I belong to a Facebook group of editors, and we refer work to each other all the time for any number of reasons.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's a good route because you're getting, you know, you're essentially um vetting those editors based on the recommendations of other people.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: And then the last two options, you know, if you don't know any writers, then you should probably get the writers group or meet some writers somehow.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but if you need an editor uh immediately, you can search online for vetted lists.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: And there are two that I like that I recommend.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um one is at Booklaunch Mentor.com.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's by Mary Demuse.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: And then KM Wyland has a list as well at helping writers become authors.com.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: So you just have to search editor in either of those URLs, and you should be able to find the posts that that uh have all of those editors listed.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then the last step that somebody could take, let's say you've exhausted all these other steps, um, somebody can go to the-EFA.org, and EFA is short for the Editorial Freelancers Association, which I belong to.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and uh an author in need of an editor can browse editors on that site, um, or they can send in a request to the EFA for free.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: The only drawback, I say the only, as far as I know, to sending in a request is that you could receive a hundred plus replies from interested editors.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um you'll be spending a lot of time sorting through is this person right?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um and some people may want that, um, but that's just one caveat because that list goes to I want to say it's like 12,000 people nationwide.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um it might be more than that, but it's you know, significant number.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's crazy.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: So an author could get inundated with dozens and dozens of potential, you know, requests from well not requests from editors, but a lot of edit editors could contact them saying, hey, I'll edit your book, I'll edit your book, that type of thing.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: That could be kind of overwhelming.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I had I actually had an editor friend of mine who was looking for trying to remember what she was looking for.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: Regardless, she posted a notice to the EFA via this uh form, and she told me she was received uh maybe a hundred replies that she had to sort through.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um but to to answer your second question, like how how do you know who's a good editor?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um definitely look at their website, see if it's professional, um, see what other work they have edited.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: They should have, you know, they may not have um I guess specific examples on their website of their of what they edited, but they should have like books or client names or endorsements.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then you could just contact that person, that client, that former client of theirs and ask them what was it like working with that editor.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um and you know, some people may get back to them and some may not.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I even I think a couple weeks ago I gave a former client's name to a new client uh just so they could have that discussion.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the referral network there is really, really important, especially if you're freelancing.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I believe so.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: So let's dive into for just a minute, if we can, a recent project that well, it it's not a recent project that you worked on as far as editing, but a very recent book release, and this is James Clear uh James Clear's book called Atomic Habits, which was a pretty big release just uh at the time that we're recording this.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: This book came out just last week.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that you helped in the early stages of that book.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: I did a little bit of developmental work um on the full manuscripts um last last year, two years ago.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was last year, um, but it was a while back.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so much so that uh I got uh James was kind enough to send me a signed copy that I got this week, and I'm I'm actually rereading the book.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um because there are still things.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: I remember when I was working on that book thinking this really good information.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: I could actually do some of this stuff, I need to do some of this stuff, and now it's a year later and I have not done that stuff.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I almost took it as like James is telling me, Hey, hey man, you you need to uh start doing this stuff that you said you were gonna do a year ago.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um with a high and I would describe that as a high profile book launch because you know he's been on TV.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like every email list that I subscribe to, it's featuring that book.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: I know, yeah.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which indicates a really well-planned out, well-executed book launch.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or it maybe just be that I subscribe to people all within the same sort of narrow niche online and that could be the case too.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: But something that I definitely want to emphasize with this podcast in general is the idea of taking sequential steps toward bigger goals.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, uh again, I would describe that as a a big book launch.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how did you uh come to work on that book?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I guess what I'm asking here is what are the the links that you could follow as you look back to, okay, here's how I got to work on an early part of an early draft of this sort of large profile book.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm actually going to look something up as I'm talking to you.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: So hopefully this won't take too long because now you have me curious about the further link.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh another former client of mine, uh Sean McKay, referred me to James, and I worked on Sean McKay's book, Overlap.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh which I'm rereading as we speak.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: Great book.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was also a book I kept telling um Sean.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: I said, I wish I would have had this three years ago when I started my business.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Because I worked on Sean's book last year.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: And uh because I thought it was so insightful.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: And there are still things in Sean's book that I still want to implement in my job.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: So um I'm trying to see where Sean heard about me.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so here's uh this is funny, this comes full circle.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: So uh on my con uh contact form, at least my previous contact form, um, you know, I have a spot where it could say, you know, how did you hear about me?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: And Sean wrote a Google search led to helping writers become authors.com/slash book dash editor.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the article was real well written, informative, and I liked how you engaged in the comments with the readers.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: I knew then I wanted to hire you.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: I subscribed to your newsletter around this time as well so I wouldn't forget you.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, just being found online by Sean.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: And then uh what happens with a lot of freelancers is that hopefully, you know, if you do good work, they want to tell the other people in their circles who are doing similar things about you.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I've been fortunate and uh grateful to get those kinds of referrals.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it and just a caveat about the helping writers become authors, um, I actually asked uh KM Wyland to take my name off of that list, uh, so it's not on there anymore.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: And mostly because she caters to uh novelists.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I was getting a lot of requests for developmental editing fiction, and I kept having to say no.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um so eventually I you know I asked to be taken off just so it wouldn't be awkward for everybody.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um but it's it's been uh you know, and even going back to the earlier part of your question with James's book, it's about becoming 1% better every day.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um and he is such a good example that he even he talks about in his book of how early on when he decided to start writing, uh I don't know, six years ago, maybe more than that, that he just said, I'm gonna do an article every Tuesday, every Thursday, I think, or Monday, Monday, Thursday.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um and he was consistent with that for six years.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like you see this big, you see a big book launch like this, like he got top ten overall on Amazon on his book launch, which is like that's what everybody wants.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it but he's not an overnight success, you know.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: I I think we always hear that he was an overnight success six years in the making, if not longer than that, um, because he put in that you know small amount of work consistently um and just got better about it over time.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: And his his numbers, um I'm trying to remember what his newsletter number is, is like 150,000, maybe maybe 500,000, I forget.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's astronomical.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's big, whatever it is.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: But he was so consistent with his writing.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I and then I read this comment from Sean about my newsletter.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: My I'm so bad.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like just in the last month, I started to get a little more consistent with my newsletter.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I'm I I I I'm probably like a lot of other writers in that I kick myself over um, you know, the question in my mind, what could I have high let me rephrase that.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: What could I have accomplished by now had I done then what I know I should have been doing?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's funny that you mentioned that because um one of the tools that I use for writing is uh called the day one app.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a journaling app.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I was looking through my my post, this has just been three or four months ago, and I came across something I had written three or four years ago in my journal.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember being so discouraged because I thought, you know, I'm still struggling with many of the same issues, and if I would just have taken a lot more action over the last two years, man, I could have been so much further along by now.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess that's as common to all of us.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if we would just take more of the the daily sort of actions, man, we could all probably be further along by now.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and really James's book is is excellent for overcoming that.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um I say that as one who still needs to implement a lot of those things, but just just reading his uh his uh perspective and his four-step process essentially.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's like, oh I can I can do that.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: I can do that.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're working on a book, you know, you're you've got a first draft, you've got a second draft or third draft or whatever.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's so easy for authors to keep sort of fussing around with their books and you want to change this and make it perfect and all that.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know when a book is finished?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how do you know when it's time to let it go and just move on to the next thing instead of continuing to mess with it and mess with it?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: That is such a uh common temptation um because we're afraid.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_03: I I kind of think of um you know, our books are are like I can't even believe I'm making this reference because I feel like I'm not that nerdy, um, but uh I'm I'm nerdy.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um so books are like our personal horror cruxes.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: They're they're a part of us, they're like a part of our soul that goes out into the world, and we're so afraid to put that out there um because of what it might like, the kind of damage it might do to our soul.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um but then we we kind of forget about what benefit can it bring to us as well.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's getting like way metaphysical, I feel.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um one of the reasons I think um we want to fuss with our books, um let me let me let me rephrase.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh because books are written by people and people aren't perfect, neither is any book.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: So for any authors out there who are afraid to put their work out there, don't let perfection prevent you from publication.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: I would recommend and encourage that you get your book to a place where you're content with it being read by people you don't know, which is a scary prospect.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then if you're still unsure whether your book is ready for other people to read, have a few trusted writer friends tell you the truth.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um get those people who aren't afraid, you know.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: Don't don't ask your mom to read it and tell you what she thinks.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um and don't ask your like two nice friends um who wouldn't tell you it sucks.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: But if you don't if you don't have those friends or if you don't want to, you know, trust them quite with it quite yet, um you can actually hire an editor to do a manuscript review.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: And those reviews can cover a wide gamut of issues.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, if you're unsure about whether it's ready for publication, just tell the editor up front, I want to know if this book is ready to be published or pitched to an agent, depending on what publishing path you're taking.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um then you can ask if it's not ready for publication, what are your suggestions to make it ready?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then in those instances, it's also best to hire an editor who's familiar with your genre.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, those are great tips.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Really great.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: I needed to hear that really I was just asking the question for myself.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's this theoretical listener out there somewhere, but really this podcast is basically all about me trying to make myself better in the process.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully other people can benefit as well.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there is some truth to that.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what do you let me let me let me uh become the podcast interviewee?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: What do you feel like is preventing you from finishing your book?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: For me, the book that I'm working on now is uh it's called Born to Create, so it's obviously aligned with this podcast.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I've been working on it on and off for probably I'm gonna say two years.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm even I'm really embarrassed to admit that because I could have been so much further along by now.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: So this book is a it's a parable type of a story.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh it's designed to be hopefully entertaining and fun to read but also to teach five key principles of creativity.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And because I've I've read a lot of business parables and I love that format.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: I thought you know it would be fun to write maybe not just one, but maybe even a whole series of parables dealing with different topics related to you know productivity or being creative or the arts or whatever.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: So this is kind of the first one.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: And where I have gotten stuck is reading quite too many books on story structure and screenplays and five.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I spent five probably months just trying to decide what story structure to go.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: You have Kayam Wyland's stuff over here, which is really good.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: You've got uh Robert McKay's stuff, you've got John Kirby's stuff, you've got all these systems, and really it's kind of paralyzing when you've never written a full-length story before to think I don't even know where to start.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: So finally I landed on John Kirby's book.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: I spent months going through that in detail to end up with literally 150 pages of notes, but no story.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I started a draft, got about you know thousands of words in, ran it past a friend, and um he said, you know, here's like a major problem with the story, and he was right.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so now I'm kind of back to per one and yeah, so that is exactly where I am with all this.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I am uh so we're actually recording this on October 22nd, and I'm really thinking about doing nanoRimo just so I can get a first draft of this thing done and get some momentum going.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's where I am with with this particular book.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's good.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: Don't don't feel defeated.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: Just just uh uh what's funny is I was about to tell you to go read the war of art, um, which would just maybe complicate matters because you would be reading more.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: But the war of art is super short, and it's I mean, sometimes it's just like the the the kick in the pants you need to fight all that resistance that is trying to prevent your book from getting into the world.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's kind of like uh when I wrote the Breaking Bad book, eventually, and and the War of Art was really instrumental in getting me through that because eventually I just saw it as like this epic battle that I was gonna win, um, regardless of you know if I'm bloodied and bruised by the end of it.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I'm just I'm just encouraging you to definitely do nano and crank out that first draft.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um Well, I appreciate that.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that is that is definitely some needed encouragement.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I know that my wife is getting really sick of me talking about this book.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's also good encouragement.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the funny thing is the other day uh I'm getting ready to go to a uh actually the tribe conference, Jeff Coins Tribe Conference down in uh Franklin, Tennessee this coming weekend.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to order a couple of my previous print books from Amazon.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I got those in the mail, and I thought, you know, it is so satisfying to hold your own book in your hand.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to get this thing done because I want that feeling again of holding a finished product and just sort of relishing in the fact that you made something that is for sale and that is blessing other people somehow and that other people can enjoy.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's a that's a great feeling.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I can speak to that in in um just in thinking.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I my my last book, um I guess the last book that I wrote by myself uh was Don't Fear the Reaper, Why Every Author Needs an Editor, and that came out in 2014.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's right.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then I mean, fortunately I've had enough client work to keep me busy, um, but there's always that drive to keep producing more content and to have you know to have that other book to add that that has your name on it to add to your library.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um one issue was that my wife and I had our first child, um, so we had to learn how to become parents, and I didn't have a lot of time for anything else.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's a slight disruption to your schedule.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh a welcome disruption, but you know, changes most everything.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um but then just recently uh I stepped down from leading the Dallas Nonfiction Authors Association, which I've done for the last two years, um, for the express reason of working on whatever my next book is gonna be.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: I have no idea what it's gonna be.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I realized that uh you know, for all the like teaching and talking that I've been doing the last few years about writing and editing, I'm I'm not being a good student of writing.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um I am writing every day, I'm editing every day, but I'm always working on other people's stuff, which in some ways is a lot easier because it takes the kind of the pressure off of me.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'm like, well, these aren't my words.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not putting myself out there really.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so I'm trying to um I guess get back to writing uh my own stuff, and then I I guess my whole point with that is that there's always a sacrifice that you're gonna have to make to write.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and you have to figure out um what you have to give up if writing is really important to you.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now let me dive into for just a minute as we kind of start to wind this down, a really special book project that did it come out two years ago, Siddons of the Five Fathers?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, two years ago.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's right.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_03: It seemed it seems so much shorter than that, um, but I think you're you're right.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: So can you walk us through uh kind of the process of of this really special book project and how you came to take something that was already partially created and then finish it and then kind of release it to the world?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm actually looking up the publication date because you have me wondering.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um so it actually came out last year.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um it was written by my uh uncle, my uncle Um James H.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: Jury.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he was a Lutheran pastor.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um and when I was let's see, I think it was my the summer after my first year in college, I actually stayed with him in Sitka, Alaska for the whole summer and thoroughly enjoyed my time up there.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um beautiful land.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: I was about to say country.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's the same country, did you know that?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but just beautiful time.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then so so he and I were close.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: He uh passed away three years ago, and he had he had been a writer his entire life.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: And what's funny is that I didn't know how much he had actually written until after he had passed away, and his wife had given me a lot of the things that he had written a few years before he wrote Sins of the Five Fathers.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: He had he had given me this uh fantasy novel that he had worked on, and I read it, and I didn't have the heart to tell him that I didn't quite like it.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: That would go hard.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like I didn't want to say it.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because he's a family member.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: This is why you don't get family members to critique your stuff.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't read a lot of fantasy, so I thought, okay, maybe it's just because I don't, you know, I don't read a lot of in that genre.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so at his funeral, when I he was living in Utah at the time, so I you know, we flew there for that, and I told his wife what I thought about that book, about the fantasy book.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: And it was it was so relieving because she said he never really liked that one either.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, oh thank God.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but he wrote this mystery novel, um, which I I actually retitled Sins of the Five Fathers, um, and I felt a little strange doing that, but I thought it it captured a little bit better what the story was about.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: And just to be kind of quick, it's it's Longmire-esque.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um so if you're a fan of the Longmire series by Craig Johnson, huge fan of it show based on the books, um, it's in that vein.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it's kind of a modern day western that takes place in Utah.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there's a serial killer on the loose.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it's just I read it, I remember um, and I'm gonna try not to cry because the last time I talked about this book, I cried, and it was in public, and I didn't think I was going to.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you think enough time has passed, but you know, with some people, you know, there there's never gonna be enough time um that passes where you don't feel uh that loss.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: But I read his manuscript for this, I think, on the drive back from his funeral.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: And there was some there was some portion we had we had to drive a couple hours, and I just and I didn't want to finish it uh because you know it's kind of like this final goodbye.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I finished it and I thought this is the best thing he's ever written that I had read.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I was just so really floored by it, and I was so you know, obviously I'm angry um because he he died before he should have.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think we always think that with people that we're close to.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I was just upset because he had plans for it to be a series.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he had he had all these titles, I got got access to all of his notes um for the for the for that book.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: For the series.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, the series wasn't really fleshed out.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: But he had essentially written the whole thing.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I sent it to a developmental editor to get some feedback because I didn't know the mystery genre all that well.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: And that was Jordan Rosenfeld, and she was really good and provided some great feedback.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then I copy edited it and I self-published it.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: And just for people out there who want to know, I used Vellum to do the formatting and was really blown away by what that's capable of.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love Vellum too.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a Mac only application that uh creates ebooks and print books that look really good.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: So self-published that, put it out.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: We actually did an audiobook through ACX.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: I was really um impressed with the narrator we got for that.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: Jack Clancy uh was the narrator.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I've just been really like that by now, um I really want to start trying to advertise that more.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: I've not gotten a lot into you know paid advertising um either through Facebook or Amazon.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I really want more people to hear about this book.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would really encourage everybody to check it out.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know who you had do the cover for it, but the cover is really, really cool.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: So nice job on that.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, well don't tell anybody.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: Don't tell anybody, but I did it.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: Seriously.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: See, I I yeah, I don't tell people that because I want people to hire cover designers, and I don't like doing cover design.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: But this I I kind of fell into um the thing that I think a lot of authors fall into is that I didn't I didn't really want to invest a whole lot of money into it, and I was also crunched for time, um, which are two things that happen to a lot of authors.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then where authors are always advised don't don't do your own cover.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: But I I was fortunate in that when I worked at the church, I got some, you know, uh that was kind of my graphic design learning time.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I I knew a little bit.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it looks great, and the interior looks great too.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: I remember uh gosh, was it I was looking on Amazon or I don't remember how I saw this.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: It must have been on Amazon.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: But and I remember looking at it and thinking, I love the formatting of this.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: I love the font choice, the line spacing.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm kind of a geek about that sort of stuff.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's just a it's just a really nice project all around.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: So well done.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: I I appreciate that.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let me throw two more quick questions out here at you, and then we'll uh wrap this up.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say are two to three key success habits that you have in your life that you have you feel like really have helped you become more creatively successful, not just as an editor, but as an artist in general?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um so it wasn't until I wrote uh the Breaking Bad book that I started that I became an early morning riser.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um that was never something I wanted to do.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I always liked hitting the snooze button and trying to get as much sleep as I could.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but when I wrote that book, it was when I had a commute and it was when I worked at that faith-based website.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I'd wake up at 5 a.m.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_03: every weekday morning and bright for an hour, um, you know, whether I felt like it or not.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that really instilled a really good discipline that I still have today.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's funny to see how that adjustment still matters today.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: Part of part of my job now is that I'm essentially on call for one of my clients between 5 and 6 a.m.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: every weekday morning.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_03: So this client writes uh a daily commentary on the news that goes out to 150,000 people on his email newsletter list, and I'm kind of the last set of eyes to see this content before it gets sent out.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um so now like part of my job, what I get paid to do um is to be awake uh and working between five and six every morning.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I just think that um it's I don't think it's necessary for a creative to have to wake up so early.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think it's necessary to have set times when you're going to work.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um and whether or not you feel creative.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I think that's what held me back for a long time is that I thought you had to be inspired to write.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that's it's not really the way it happens.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's very true.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um a couple of other things that I was uh that I thought about is that getting out of my introverted comfort zone has helped a lot the last couple of years.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um so in 2017, I made it a point to begin teaching, writing and editing, and then doing a lot more public speaking.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: And as a result of that, I've made a lot of connections with writers in the North Texas area that I never would have made just sitting behind my desk.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, just talking with other writers kind of inspires you to um keep writing.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um you know, for as as much as I teach, um, I always feel encouraged by the end of those times because I'm talking with writers who are really um gung-ho about what they're working on.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think that's probably one reason why I'm trying to make more time for my own writing.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then lastly, this is something that has um been on my mind uh just in recent days.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a lot more focused on trying to read consistently instead of just when I feel like reading.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I guess I'm kind of taking my writing discipline into my reading discipline.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then, you know, not to to James Clear's horn too much more, uh, but he it was actually an article that he wrote on reading comprehension that inspired me.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um so he he didn't recommend a number, I don't think, um, but I set a number for myself to read 50 pages a day every day.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that's that's a real recent um goal.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that's reading outside of all the reading I do for my client work.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then based on his article, I'm also trying to quit books that don't hold my interest.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um like for most of my life, I've always felt indebted to any author who's written a book that I will finish it from A to Z even if I hate it.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like even if I'm bored to tears, I will say, Well, no, I need to finish this book.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you sort of feel guilty.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: But oh, absolutely.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_03: Especially if you're a writer because you know how much that works, how much works that you look at my um brand new bookshelves behind me that have all these books that I want to get into that I haven't gotten into yet.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I realize that I, you know, you have to make sacrifices.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is really tough.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I think even just deciding what books to read.
• 50:10
  unknown: Yeah.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's so many great ones out there.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, if you're gonna be a writer, you've got to read.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, some editor friends of mine, we kind of bemoan the fact that it it seems to afflict uh first-time memoirists more than others, or maybe that's just who who I've come into contact with.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, when you ask, what other memoirs have you read, and they're like, well, none.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, well, then how do you expect to to to write a memoir that people want to read?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um so you have to read in your genre.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_03: But you need to get out of that as well.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_03: You need to, you know, I think need to be widely read.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I and that's something I still need to work on myself, too.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's there's never enough time in the day to do all the stuff that you want to do.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's very true.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Blake, thanks so much for uh your time on this interview today.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, there's so many great tips.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all the things that you mentioned are going to be in the show notes, books and links and uh resources and all that good stuff.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: How can our listeners get in touch with you and uh explore more of your work and possibly even hire you if they would like?
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's very simple.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's just my website, blakeatwood.com.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um there's a contact form on the very front page, you can't miss it.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um it just asks three questions about your project, and then that's how you start the conversation.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm also on Twitter at Batwood.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um don't get confused with Batman, even though I guess you could if you wanted to.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that's really it.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um there is there is one more uh question that we had talked about previously that I actually wanted to answer because I wanted to give a shout out to a couple of people.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: Is that okay?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's I think it's good advice too.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um you uh you wanted to know about any tips for first-time authors.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: Which we kind of we kind of covered some of that, um uh without you know saying not to rush your stuff.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um but one of the other things that I was thinking of is that it's hard, if not impossible, to break even on your first first book, especially if you're self-publishing, but you should invest in your book anyway, both in time and money.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh at the very least, hire an editor.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, yes, I say that selfishly, but I would also I also hire editors to work on my stuff.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you should at least hire an editor and a book designer.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: And a book designer is someone who does both the cover and the interior.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I would definitely like to give a shout out to my favorite book designer, Melinda Martin.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, she's at melindamartin.me.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_03: And this is our our point of mutual connection with Melinda.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, she designed uh Kent and Mine, our mutual friend Chris Morris's upcoming and very necessary book, Whispers in the Fuse.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm looking forward to that one.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, me too.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: And then um I guess my last piece of advice, and this is one I have to take to heart as well, is that when you're spending money and time on your first book, don't think of it as investing in your book.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, think of it as investing in your career as a writer.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's great advice.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I would encourage everybody to think of themselves as a professional in that sense and approach your writing and your art as a professional and not just as a hobby.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you're not gonna do it full time necessarily for you know your your uh your main career, still, you know, we need more professionals out there who are taking their art and their writing and their creative work seriously.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it you know, even if you are doing it as a hobby, when you put your book out there, you're gonna be competing against professionals.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: People who do do that as their as their main job.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Blake, thanks so much again.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: This has been a lot of fun, and I'm really excited to get this out to our listeners.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you for having me today, Ken.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I hope that you enjoyed my conversation with Blake Atwood.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've listened to any of these episodes uh in this recent batch, since I've started doing interview-based episodes, uh, you know that at the end of every one of those, I like to share three specific things that I learned.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and these are simply key action steps that you can put into practice right away to start making a bigger impact in your creative work, uh, in your art, and in your overall life.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: So here are three things that I learned from Blake.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and these are three things that you can put into action right away.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, editors are a key part of the creative writing process.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Editors perform a similar function to a record producer does when they produce a music album.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: Their job is to take the raw elements and make something beautiful from it.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's something a record producer does with music, and it's also something that editors do with the raw material of a first, second, or third draft of a book.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: A good editor is not just a hired gun or a cleanup person, even though certainly it can involve cleaning up errors and mistakes and the like.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, they are collaborators who can make a good book great.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, there are three distinct stages to the editing process.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: And these stages of the editing process move from the macro down to the micro.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: The first level, this is kind of the top level, is developmental editing, which is concerned with taking a big picture look at the overall book and its story or its structure.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: The second level, kind of the middle level, is copy editing, which is concerned with grammar, spelling, and line-by-line corrections.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: The third level, which is the most granular of these stages of editing, is proofreading, which is checking for errors after the book has been formatted for print and digital.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's important to understand these different types of editing and what to expect when you're working with editors because you're going to need to speak the language of editors and sort of know what's involved in the process.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: Not if you use an editor, but when you use an editor.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then finally, the third key takeaway is that habits can make or break your textbooks.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that you will hear often on this podcast is the importance of good habits.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: And Blake shared how he developed a habit of getting up at 5 a.m.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: and how this habit has served him really well over the years.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: Blake also talked about getting out of his introverted comfort zone by teaching and public speaking.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: He talked about reading 50 pages a day just for his own personal and professional development.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: And he also talked about quitting books that didn't hold his interest.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I've got to admit, that's really hard for me to do because I'm surrounded by books in my home office or my college office all the time, and I feel guilty whenever I don't finish a book.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Life is kind of short.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if we find that a book doesn't hold our interest and isn't helping us in some way, then we've just got to move on.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, friends, that wraps up this episode of the Born to Create podcast.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can find the show notes, as I mentioned earlier, at KentSanders.net slash Blake.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: This episode was produced by me, Kent Sanders, and our associate producer of Ben Standards.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can find their links in the show notes.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: Remember that you were born to create design to make a difference.