Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / Hits & Horror: Inside Stories with Producer/Film Composer Fred Mollin [Episode 275]

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Hits & Horror: Inside Stories with Producer/Film Composer Fred Mollin [Episode 275] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On this episode of Book Don Rock, Grammy winning and
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Juno Award winning producer and composer Fred Malin. He shares
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: his incredible stories of working with Billy Joel, Michael McDonald,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: and a whole lot more, plus his work on composing
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: music for films including The Friday the Thirteenth series. That's next.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: We're totally booked rock and Roll.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: I think I'll leave you. You're reading. Little Hands says
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: it's time to rock and roll.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I totally booked. Hey guys, welcome back to Book Don Rock.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Great to have you back. Americ Senach this episode's guest
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Grammy nominated Juno Award winning producer and composer Fred Malin.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: He is the author of the new book Unplugged, Stories
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: and Secrets from a life of making records, scoring film,
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  Speaker 1: and working with the legends of music. Fred, thanks so
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: much for being on the show.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: I'm honored. Thank you.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: You have so many stories to tell. And I did
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: watch it was a video of yours where you said
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: you got to get this all into a book before
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: you forget it all.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: You know, the hard drive is full up here, you know,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: so you don't want to lose anything.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Your introduction starts with quote, if you had told me
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: in my teenage years that I would have the opportunities
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: that I've had, especially to work with some of the
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: world's greatest music legends, I would have been the most
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: self assured and confident Long Island dreamer there. Ever, was
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: the fact that I got to record with so many
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  Speaker 1: artists I admire, as well as work with some of
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: my deepest inspirations and heroes, was beyond my imagination. Before
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: we get to all those amazing opportunities, you grew up
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: not too far from where I am here I'm in Connecticut.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: You grew up in Long Island, and in fact, your
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: neighbor was Jerry Greenfield of Ben and Jerry's ice Cream fame.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, books, when you think about it, how goofy is
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  Speaker 2: you know, even early in my life, like you know,
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: as a young child into my teens, when I left
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: home at sixteen, my neighbors were with the green Fields,
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: of course, and Jerry became Jerry of Ben and Jerry.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: What a story. So tell us about your early life.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: And also I'm curious, what was that first moment when
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: you realized I want to make a living in the
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: music business.
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  Speaker 2: Well, first of all. I grew up in Merrick Long Island,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: which is about forty five minutes away from Manhattan, really beautiful,
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  Speaker 2: little leave it to Beaver type suburb. I had a
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  Speaker 2: wonderful life, not a lot of angst really, And you
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  Speaker 2: know the truth is that when the Beatles hit at eleven,
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  Speaker 2: I was eleven years old. Yeah, in nineteen sixty four,
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  Speaker 2: I was eleven. So that's when I really was hit
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  Speaker 2: by lightning. Like so many others. I mean literally, there
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: are millions whose life changed, and my life changed it
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden. I know it sounds sort of
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: like a caricature, but all of a sudden, I wanted
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: a really nice guitar. I wanted to write my own
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  Speaker 2: songs and sing them and shake my head. And I
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: wanted to have girls, and it was like bang. You know,
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  Speaker 2: here's so, all of a sudden, I had literally a
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  Speaker 2: roadmap of what I wanted and then I sort of
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: went at it. And by the time I was sixteen,
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  Speaker 2: in my first year of high school, I was so
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: dedicated to trying to have a life in music, especially
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  Speaker 2: at that point as a singer songwriter, sort of like
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: a James Taylor or someone that I was really admiring.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: At that time, I just wanted to get out of
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: school and start and so I quit school on my
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: birthday at age sixteen.
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  Speaker 1: It is amazing. Was it February ninth, nineteen sixty four?
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: That was the Ed Sullivan? Yes, I mean it's amazing
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  Speaker 1: how many people in the business like yourself, Musicians, producers, engineers,
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  Speaker 1: you name it. That one night it was what seventy
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  Speaker 1: two million people watching.
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  Speaker 2: It changed the world.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just amazing. That's why I say they're the
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  Speaker 1: most important band in rock and roll.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Get any argument, it's just amazing.
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  Speaker 1: So you're working hard in New York trying to break
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: into the business as a musician, but it was in
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Canada where your career and your life changed. So tell
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  Speaker 1: us how you end up in Canada and also talk
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  Speaker 1: about how that would lead to your first producer gig
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  Speaker 1: with Dan Hill.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I struggled. I didn't know anybody in the world
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: of show business. My family is not a show business family,
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: or it wasn't at that point, and so when I
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: quit school, I was knocking on a lot of doors
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: in New York and couldn't get through them. My brother,
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: who had become my best friend, especially after he went
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  Speaker 2: to university, he became very creative, and so my brother
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  Speaker 2: and I started writing songs together. And he was really
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: my He's seven years older than me, so he was
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  Speaker 2: really my best friend. But he was also someone that
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  Speaker 2: I had to use on a lot of levels as
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  Speaker 2: the person to take care of me, because we were
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  Speaker 2: on our own from age sixteen on. And so about
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: a year and a half later, he moved to Toronto,
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  Speaker 2: he and his gal. He wanted to become an underground
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  Speaker 2: theater actor and there was a huge scene there in Toronto,
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  Speaker 2: and so in seventy two I joined him there to
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  Speaker 2: check it out, and really I never left. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: it was all of a sudden, all the things I
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: was trying for in New York I got, I got
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  Speaker 2: a record deal, I had college gigs, and Toronto it
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: was totally an exciting, wide open city and I just
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: started my career there. And so for the first number
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  Speaker 2: of years, I guess, seventy two seventy three, I really
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  Speaker 2: was playing gigs all over and really trying to have
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  Speaker 2: a life as a singer songwriter, trying to get a
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  Speaker 2: record deal myself, and then to try to make this
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: story a little shorter, Dan Hill, who I was playing
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  Speaker 2: gigs alongside of in same clubs, needed a demo produced,
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  Speaker 2: and he asked me out of nowhere if I would
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  Speaker 2: produce a demo for him. And Dan was really a
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  Speaker 2: talented guy. He was writing great, very emotional songs, and
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: the girls loved him and we became great friends. And
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: so when he asked me, I said, of course, I'd
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  Speaker 2: love to produce your demo, meaning you know, of course
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  Speaker 2: I've never produced anything in my life, but it sounded
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  Speaker 2: exciting to me, and I knew a lot about what
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  Speaker 2: a record producer did, which was basically a director and
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: oversaw every part of the recording. But it was just
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  Speaker 2: the guitar and vocal demo. However, I felt very powerful
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: as a producer of that little demo. And interestingly enough,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: the story was that I got to the studio in
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  Speaker 2: Toronto to be the big producer of this little acoustic
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  Speaker 2: demo of dance, and there was a guy there besides
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  Speaker 2: the engineer, and he was sitting there and he had
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: a long beard, black beard and black mustache and long hair,
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  Speaker 2: wearing a peasant shirt and I sort of looked at
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: him and I just thought I was a friend of dance.
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  Speaker 2: Because he sort of initially just watched us as we
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  Speaker 2: started the demo. Then he started to intrude a lot
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: on the demo and he started sort of producing quote
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: unquote the demo, and I was like, it was sort
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: of like two roosters in a pen. Wasn't really fun.
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  Speaker 2: And I was thinking to myself, what's going on here?
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  Speaker 2: Who's this guy? And it turned out that Dan had
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: not told Matt McCauley who that's the guy, and hadn't
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: told me that we were both producing the demo. So
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: it was a creative blind date that Danny had decided
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: was going to be perfect because he felt Matt and
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  Speaker 2: I really would compliment each other, and he had gone
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  Speaker 2: to school with Matt and Matt was a musical genius,
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  Speaker 2: and Dan had the same sort of respect for me
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  Speaker 2: at that young age. And we wound up after that session.
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  Speaker 2: We had a dinner that night and I just fell
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  Speaker 2: in love with Matt. I just said, you know what,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: this is really kismet, and we both felt like we
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: had found our sort of heterosexual soulmate and creative soulmate.
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  Speaker 2: So then what happened was that Matt's parents decided to
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: finance an album on Dan, and that album became Dan's
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  Speaker 2: first album in seventy four called Dan Hill, which Matt
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  Speaker 2: and I produced, and then that became a gold record
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  Speaker 2: in Canada. We had some hits we had to release
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  Speaker 2: in the US which didn't do anything. Then the second
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  Speaker 2: album was an album called hold On by Dan, again
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  Speaker 2: went gold in Canada and had terrific results, but no
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: results in the US. On the third album, we were
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: told by the record label in the US that they
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: were going to drop us if we didn't have a hit.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: But that's how I started producing, and then I can
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: talk about the story behind Sometimes when We Touch, which
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  Speaker 2: became the iconic hit, Yeah.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, your first hit, which is your biggest hit. The
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: chapter really breaks down the recording of the song and
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: all these parts that you put together to come up
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  Speaker 1: with the song. But there's one I wanted to focus on,
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  Speaker 1: and that's the vocals, particularly at the end of the song.
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  Speaker 1: That last line in the song.
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  Speaker 2: Well, you know, first of all, we were kids, you know,
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  Speaker 2: we really were. I mean I was twenty three, Danny
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  Speaker 2: and Matt were twenty two, and we were very precocious kids,
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  Speaker 2: and we had already had success in Canada, so we
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: were feeling pretty good, and then we were very deflated
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  Speaker 2: when the US company said we're going to drop you
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: if you don't have a US hit, So the pressure
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  Speaker 2: was terrible. I'm not going to get into the story
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: of how the song got written, but that's a good
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: story and part of the book. But you're asking about
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: how the record was made, and it was made under
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: tremendous pressure and being so young. I don't think we were.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: I think there was a good part of us that
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: were like so full of ourselves that we didn't feel
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: the pressure. But Danny felt the pressure. As the artist.
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  Speaker 2: You know, don't forget as a producer, you're really a
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: behind the scenes person, so you don't really take the
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: slings and arrows. But as the artist, you know, your
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: face is on the cover and it's really you. So
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I think Danny was extremely pressured. And when it came
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: to doing vocals, and he was again a very naturally
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: gifted singer, but when it came to doing vocals on
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Sometimes when we Touch, which we knew by the way,
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: we just knew in our hearts that it was going
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: to be a smash hit because it was that good
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: a song and it was our big shot you know,
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: So the pressure was definitely on and we did the
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: track and the track was terrific, and then Matt had
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: written the string chart, but we didn't do the strings yet,
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: so we went and did Dan's vocal recording afterwards. And
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to give away a lot that's in
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: the book, but basically Dan really had a hard time
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: doing vocals on that song. He just didn't really seem
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: to have his normal phrasing and sound and pitch, and
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: you know, we just wound up recording six different vocal tracks,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: and then we wound up having to comp meaning create
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: a composite. And those days, see, now we do it
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: on computer, it's easy to put the thing together, but
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: in those days it was faders on the console, and
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: it took two days to put the vocal together. And
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: it was me and Matt and Dan, because Dan was
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: very involved in everything, but it was me sort of
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: in Matt, you know, and we would do you know,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: you ask me, stop tape, and I would do faders,
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: you know, and you ask me, and I'd stop tape.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: How was that? And if it was impossible to hear
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: the move, we'd move on. So there were ninety six
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: vocal moves on that record. Now, Danny gave us great
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: moments and great words and great little phrases, but it
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: took all of our talents to put that vocal together.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: And then Matt did a glorious string arrangement and we
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: mixed it. Now, if you're a fan of that record,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: and apparently it's considered one of the two hundred most
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: played records in the history of radio, etc. So I
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: guess everyone knows the record, and if you love the record,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: you remember that the last note, which is till the
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: fear in me subsides and he goes to the fear
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: and me subside. And we always wanted Dan to hold
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: the note long at the end and let it be
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: sort of the big climax, So to the fear and
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: me subside and hold that note. And then when we
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: got to the mix, which was a four person mix,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: we're all holding different parts of the board and doing
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: different things in the mix because there was no automation.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: It was a very performance oriented world of making records.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: And I was handling the vocal, and I was handling
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: a couple of drum fills, Matt was doing the strings,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Danny was doing other stuff, and my engineer was doing
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: other stuff, so all during every mix pass, we'd all
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: be doing our moves. Once we got into the final
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: versions of the mix, it was very clear to us
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: that we didn't have that big climactic last note. As
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: a matter of fact, Danny held it for about two
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: and a half seconds and then his voice was cracked
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: a little bit. So the best one we had was
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: about little tear in his throat, and it wasn't a
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: tear that would make you feel great. It was a
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: tear that was a mistake. So here we are again.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: You know, this sort of Damocles is hanging over our heads,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: you know, And it was me. I take credit, because
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: I was handling the vocal as well as drum fills
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: in the mix, and I just out of nowhere. And again,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: you know we're talking this is necessary, so you know,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: this is the mother of invention, is necessity. And so
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: I said, let me try something, and I went to
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: the board as I was sitting there, and I grabbed
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: the vocal reverb that I was dealing with on Danny's
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: vocal track. And when we got to that last note
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: subsides the minute, I know he was gonna crack. During
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: the mix. I jammed the sound of his voice with
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: as much reverb as possible, but at the same time,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: I pulled down the fader really fast, and the percussiveness
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: of me pulling down the fader amplified the reverb, so
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: it was subside, and all of a sudden, the voice
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: went into incredible amounts of echo and reverb, and it
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: was sort of interesting. And we all looked at each
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: other because we were sunk because we didn't really have
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: that last note, and we all looked at each other, Dan, Me,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Andy and Matt, and we all looked each other and
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: it was like, that was interesting. Let's listen back to that,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: you know, And then we realized that's the only way
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: out was to do what I did. And it was
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: completely just an improvisational moment where I wanted to try this.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: And to this day, you know, literally people will when
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: we talk about the record, will say, how did you
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: and why did you do that last note? You know,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: and you know what, it was just a lucky break,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: what a story.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: And I was looking as you were telling the story
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: of Spotify eighty four coming up on eighty five million streams.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: That's not bad.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't have magine. I mean, that's only Spotify. So
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: if you look at the rest, probably like two hundred
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: and fifty million.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Book on podcasts will be back after this.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: You're on our like to ask for a recess.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: The chapter finishes with a cautionary tale there were royalties
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: that you never received. What happened.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad you read the book because you're bringing
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: up good stuff. And at the same time, it's no
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: longer traumatic, you know, although traumatic was definitely a word
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: I would have used. You know, we had a huge hit,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: and so therefore there should have been huge money coming
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: in for all of us. Danny and Barry Mann who
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: co wrote the song, and the publisher as writers and
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: publisher made money from the actual airplay on the radio,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: et cetera. Record producers and artists don't make money from
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: radio play, so our money came from the record label
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: as mechanical royalties. And this was the first time ever
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: that Matt and I were going to see this kind
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: of big money coming in as producers and Dan as
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: an artist. When the money started to come in, which
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: would have been about a year later, so the record
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: was a big hit seventy seven into seventy eight, and
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: I think the first money was coming in around July
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: of seventy eight, and we were already had moved to
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Los Angeles and we're working for Clive Davis, and I
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: remember getting a phone call and Matt and I both
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: got the phone call while we were making a record
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: in LA and the phone call was, have someone go
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: to GRT Records in Canada, which was our label in Canada,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: who would licensed the project. And we did to twenty
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Century Fox Records in the US, and they said, have
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: someone get there right away and get your money because
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: we heard they're going bankrupt. And you know, again, I'm
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: just a kid, I don't even know what bankrupt really meant,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: you know. And Matt called his parents, who owned the
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: Masters and had leased them to GRT initially, and they
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: sent someone over to the offices of GRT to try
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: to see if they could write a check to us
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: before they in fact went officially bankrupt. By the time
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: they got there, the door was padlocked and they went
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: into full bankruptcy, and all the money that should have
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: gone to us, especially in the big years when our
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: album Longerfuse and that single were making its biggest money,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: was eaten up by the bankruptcy. We never saw Scent.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I had married my gal, had moved her from Toronto
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: to la we had bought a home, we were furnishing
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: our home, and basically I was spending my money before
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: I made it. Apparently it just taught me in a
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: hell of a lesson, which of course is don't spend
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: your money till you got it.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: There was some advice that you gave Danny Approyd back
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy five. Great story that you include in
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: the book. I love this one.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: You want to hear that stories that I would love
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: to Many things that I did in the early part
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: of my career, especially the early years in Toronto, was
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: basically any opportunity creatively that was offered to me, I
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: would grab. And that's always been my life. You know.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: It's like someone says, do you want to try this,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: and I'd say, sure, I'll try it. And my brother
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: and two other guys had out of the underground theater
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: scene in Toronto, decided to try and create their own
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: improvisational comedy group and they enlisted me as the musical
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: fourth person, so I would do the music for the
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: improv shows that they would do. It was a wonderful
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: time in my life. We just laughed like hyenas and
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: we had a ball and then we also I was
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: also producing records, and I was playing a few gigs still,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: and I felt pretty good about myself in those days.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I felt like I was really sort of hitting on
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: all cylinders. At the same time that we started Homemade Theater,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: which was our improvisational comedy group, we were doing a
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: TV series for children on CBC, which was like the BBC.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: We did a very almost a Monty Python weekly show
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: on CBC and we loved it. It was a Monty
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Python for kids. And at the same time, Danny Ackroyd
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: and other people on the City Improvisational Toronto group, We're
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: doing another CBC show for kids, and I had met
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Dan and a few other of the Second City people
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: like Gilda and Joe Flaherty. We had all just become
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: great pals. And even though we were sort of competitors
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: because we were the only two improvisational comedy groups in Toronto,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: we just loved each other. So we had a lot
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: of fun together. And Danny especially was so gifted, you know.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: I always thought he was absolutely a genius, a comedy genius.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: And sure is true. When we were doing Homemade TV,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: we were very much in charge of that show and
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: it was a very funny show for young kids, and
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: probably on many levels, we never should have been allowed
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: to do it because we were really not particularly aware
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: of what not to do when you're dealing with a
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: young adult or young children scenario. So I would say
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: that we were inappropriate, but I would say we were
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: delightfully inappropriate. But they were doing another show called Coming
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Up Rosy and it was a very low budget CBC
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: afternoon show once a week, and it really played down
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: to children. It was a scripted show. It sucked. It
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: just sucked. And it was just basically a way for
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Danny and people like that to make money, because you know,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: because that's what the that's what we all needed to do,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: was make a living. But that wasn't where Danny belonged.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: But he was just doing it like a gig. And unfortunately,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: that show, like I said, sucked. So I was in
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: a place that we used to have our breakfast called
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: the Bagel on College Street. And again by this time,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: you know, we'd had hit records in Canada, we were
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: doing pretty well. Danny was struggling you know, he was
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: doing Second City but not making a lot of money,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: and also doing Coming Up Rosie, which, as I told you,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: was not the greatest little kids show. As I'm walking in,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: he's walking out, and he always called me mister Mollin.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: He always said mister Mallin. And I said, yeah, hey, Dan,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: how are you. You know? We shot the crap for
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: a while and then we just you know, he just
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: told me what's going on. He goes, he says, I
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: really got something that's really really driving me crazy. And
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: I said what. And this all happened as we were
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: standing outside the bagel and he said to me, I've
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: been offered to be a part of the Lorne Michaels
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Show in New York, which is going to start, and
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: it's going to be a live late night show on
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Saturday nights in New York. And Lorne Michaels, by the way,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: was a Toronto hero who then moved to New York
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: and became the creator of Saturday Night Live. And so
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Laurene looked for the original talent base everywhere, including Toronto,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: and he wanted to hire Dan as a writer at first,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: and then perhaps he might be able to go in
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: front of the camera. That was the deal. But Dan
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: told me all about it and it sounded great. And
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: then I said, man, this sounds amazing. You get to
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: you know, you get to go to New York and
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: try this on NBC. This is huge. And he said yeah.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: He said, but the contract is so bad. And I said, well,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: how bad? And he said, well, it's so bad. The
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: money's bad and they locked me up for five years.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: I can't do anything else for five years and the
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: money stays the same for five years. There's no guarantees
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: that I'll be on camera. I mean, you name it. It
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: was a bad contract. And I looked at him because
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: already I was sort of a veteran of show business
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: for like three years of my life, I had become
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: a veteran, which is hysterical. And I just looked at
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: him and I said, take the gig. I said, you know,
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: you have an opportunity to get moved to the US
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: and be able to work on a network show on NBC.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: And I said, listen, if this thing works, your lawyer
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: can renegotiate the deal because they're not going to want
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: to lose you. And if it doesn't work, the contract's over.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: And you come back to Toronto and he was like, yeah, yeah,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: and you could tell it just lit a light bulb
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: in his head. And by no means am I telling
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: you I'm the only person who gave him that advice.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: But I certainly was one person.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: And here we are fifty years later and Saturday Night
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Live is still going, still on.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: The air, and again, you know, and look at the
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: brilliance that Danny was that he created book.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: On podcasts will be back after this. During our brief information,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: let's take a flying trip from Milanda fantasy to everyday life.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: You yourself have a sense of humor, like Danny Ackroyd.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: You played a prank on Rod Stewart. I had Joel
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Salvin on this podcast, and I'm gonna tell you he
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: was one of my all time favorite guests, I mean
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: and so, and he has a great line he tells you.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: So I'm hoping maybe you could also add that to
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: the to the end of this story.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Do you really want me to tell you this is
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: the whole chapter?
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Man? You know, I know I don't want to give
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: away too much. You tell me, I always.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: You know I'm not going to give you the whole chapter.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: You know, you know, Joel's gal was my editor, and
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Pamela Turly is terrific. You know, she wound up doing
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: She didn't really edit, but she organized everything, especially the timelines,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: and that was a great help. And she also told
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: me to get rid of two chapters. And one was
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: a chapter about all the pranks we would pull during
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: the early years of producing because we had so much
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: spare time. These records would take sometimes two months to make,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: and you know, we were just kids and we would
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: have a lot of fun pranking each other. This chapter.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: She said, if you put this chapter in, she said,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: people will hate you. So I opted not to put
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: it in. And then there was another chapter as well.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: But the one chapter I kept in because Joel Selvin,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: who I consider a mentor and a deer pal, he
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: said to me you must keep this chapter in because
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: it involved Rod Stuart. And he said, you know, when
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: you have a chance to prank Rod Stewart, he said, basically,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: isn't it your duty? He said, to prank Rod Stewart,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: you know, and Rod was really at his absolute peak
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: at that point. You know, he'd had a lot of
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: success and he was recording an album in Toronto at
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: the same studio that Matt and I worked at, which
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: we felt we sort of were like the kingpins of
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: and he took over the big studio for a month
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: and he was going to record the album, which turned
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: out to be Tonight's The Night, which was huge record
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: which had his biggest hits. I think for him to
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: record in Toronto was a big deal. He was there
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: because he had some tax problems in England and he
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: was fleeing from those. We never said hello to him
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: the whole time, and you know, we would have lots
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: of opportunities to pass him in the hall or whatever,
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: but he was really never particularly interested in people like
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: us because I guess we were sort of below him
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: or something. And you know, that sort of got the
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: punk in me and Matt sort it's sort of instilled
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: a bit of a chip on our shoulder because a
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: we were pushed out of the big room, which we
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: didn't want to be because we were busy and we
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: had to work in the smaller room. And secondly, you know,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: we certainly had a lot of respect for Rod Stewart
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: and we would have hoped that he would have been,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: you know, at least somewhat nice to us or interested
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: in us, and he just wasn't and my partner, Matt
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: and Matt and I were partners in producing records till
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: eighty one, when Matt made some changes his life and
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: didn't want to produce anymore. But at that point we
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: were still a partnership and a lovable, delightful partnership, except
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: when you know, we felt a little pissed off. So
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: Matt became sort of the architect of this particular prank
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: and it was really, I mean, Matt's brilliant, So it
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: was a brilliant bit of pranking. Yes, I don't know,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: you want to hear the whole thing, Well, it's up
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: to you. Yeah, I mean, I just well, first of all,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: means should take curse on this show. Yeah, you should.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: There take notes on this one because this is well,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: this was.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: A fucked up prank because it took. It took a
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: lot of like Matt was really at his best when
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: he let his dark, dark side out.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: And this was really well planned out.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Well it was, it was really, it was like almost military,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: it was so beautifully done. He decided a man to
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: only had one bathroom for guys, one bathroom for girls,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: and in the bathroom for guys. It was a urinal
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: and there was a toilet. We sat a lot in
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: the hallway section sort of like a little round table,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: and anybody who'd have to go to the bathroom have
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: to pass that little round table where we all would sit.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: And Matt decided to go to Main Street, which is
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Young Street in Toronto, and he went and bought fake
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: dog shit at a magic store, and he also bought
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: some nest t instant nest t. He was already there,
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: like he already had it in his mind, and so
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: what he did was he constructed basically what looked like
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: in the men's toilet that someone had had a terrible
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: situation and with the actual, you know, fake dog shit,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: which he meticulously stained with wet nest tea and toilet paper.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, it looked horrible in the water there, Yeah,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, nobody would want to have gone to the
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: bathroom in that bathroom and there were no other bathrooms, right,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: And so you know, it was really Matt, and it
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: was really like he really puts some effort and a
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: lot of planning into this. And when he finished and
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: he said check it out, I went to the bathroom
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: and looked and it was just as disgusting as you
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: could ever imagine. And it was all completely constructed by Matt.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: And then we put it. We put a sign on
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: the toilet that said toilet out of order. I feel
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: so bad telling the story because I have nothing nothing
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: against Rod Stewart. I think Rod Stewart. Rod Stewart is
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: actually one of the greatest artists that is still continuing
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: to this day.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: I was about to say that I'm a huge Rod
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Stewart fan. So this is just this this this is funny.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: You could have done this to anybody. It's not just
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: because it's Rod story.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: It's just well, I you know, I think that when
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: I told Joel Salvin about the story, he just had
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: hop perfect how perfect, you know. But the bottom line
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: is he wasn't very nice to us. Yeah, and and
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: so that's probably why we did this. And again Matt
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: really was he was the person who constructed it.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I was. Eventually Rod had to go, and yes,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: I was, say so, then we sort.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Of made our We planned to just sit literally in
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: the sort of common area, which was the hall and
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: the little where the round table was and the couches,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: so we could watch him leave the studio and head
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: to the bathroom. And it took a while, and eventually
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: he made his bathroom run, and you know, he went
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: down the hall and we're all sitting there going, oh
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: my god, this is great. And it didn't last more
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: than two seconds and he was out of there, and
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: you could tell he was steaming angry. And he walked
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: back into the control room of the studio, of the
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: big studio. And the next day they pulled out of
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: the studio gone, and my and my dear friend Andy Herman,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: who owned the studio was our engineer. Somehow he forgave us.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: But you know, that was a big that was we
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: didn't expect that. I actually someone to laugh about it,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: but he actually pulled out of the studio. So to
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: this day, I can you know if Rod, if you're listening,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because now he's oh, you're the one. He's the
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: son of a bitch. What was the Joel Salvin line
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: that he had for you too?
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: It's that gee, I don't remember, but I think he said,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: isn't it everybody's duty to prank Rod Stewart?
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: You know, yeah, that's it. Joel. By the way, his
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: book on Jim Gordon was was just absolutely phenomenal. I agree,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: drums and demons, yeah.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Drummings, drums and demon And we had a chance to
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: work with Jim once.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh really wow? What a what a drummer? What
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: not a drummer and just a tragic story.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, a drummer who had real mental illness and
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: paranoid schizophrenia that no one knew and nothing like drugs
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: and paranoidschizophrenia to make you want to murder your mother.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: What song or songs did you work on him? With him?
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: I brought him up, I mean purposely. I reached out
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: because I'm a drummer initially, and so I was a
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: big fan of Jim's playing. And when we were in
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: our fourth album for Dan the album after Sometimes we
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: touched the album, I really wanted to bring in some
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: other drummers, and certainly Jim Gordon was on the top
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: of my list from LA. So he came into Toronto
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: and he played one day of sessions with us and
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: he played just great stuff, which is on the fourth
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Dan Hill album. My memories of Jim were that he
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: was brilliant and that he didn't really hang with us.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: He didn't have much to say. But he seemed lovely
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: but wasn't really like one of the guys. And after
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: two days he went home and we have gorgeous drum tracks. Sadly,
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: shortly after he hammered his mother to death.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Man, and he was a boy. He was on
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: so many recordings, but most famously for Derek and the
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Domino's Leila Yeah and all that. But anyway, so.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I mean, out of the list
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: of the top ten studio drummers, he would be at
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: least on the top three of all time.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Booked on rock podcasts, We'll be back after this. Talk
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: about the dark side with drugs and Harry Nelson was
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: a story in the book. He wasn't all that nice
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: to you.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: First of all, you really know your stuff. This is
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: really a delight, Thank you.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed the book. I told you. I mean, there's
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: so many stories in it. Think I always feel bad
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: because I don't want to reveal too many. But there's way,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: you know, way more than we're going to cover here,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: so you.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Know you're giving away the good ones. There's only two
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: chapters or sections in the book where I do bring
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: up some pretty bad stuff. The Harry Nilsen thing is
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: one of the stories. And when Jimmy Webb was doing
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: an album with us in nineteen seventy eight, which was
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: a great thrill for Matt and I. We had just
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: moved to Los Angeles and to produce Jimmy Webb was
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: my dream, and so to produce that record was so
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: important to my life. And I've been working with Jimmy
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: ever since. It was a dream to make that first record,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: of course, and again we're just kids. And I remember
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: at one point we were at Larabie Studios doing vocals
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: with Jimmy, and listen, you know what. Those were days
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: when we all were doing things we shouldn't have done
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: because they were good for us, like cocaine was good
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: for you. Then. The one thing I remember, though, was
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: for Jimmy's vocals. We wouldn't want to do coke those
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: days because it would stuff his nose up and fucked
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: his vocals up. So we were pretty good to not
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: do coke those days, even a little bit. And I
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: remember that Harry Nielsen, who, of course I didn't you know,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Harry Nielsen's a giant. Literally, he was already considered a legend,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: and he walked into the studio and I didn't know
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: who it was because it was a guy who was
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: literally three times the size of the person I thought
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Harry Nielsen would be. So he looked like baby Hueye
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: and he was disheveled and very loud. And he walked
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: into the control room and we introduced ourselves, and he
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: didn't even let us introduce ourselves. He said move away.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: And he got to the console and he went on
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: the talk back because Jimmy's out there doing vocals and
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: he goes, Hey, Jemmy, and he's obviously drunk and stoned,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: and he goes Jimmy and it's daytime. He goes, Jimmy,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: I got the best fucking cocaine. You gotta come in now.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Again we're kids, and I'm like, Harry, why don't we
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: wait till his vocals are done? And Harry goes, fuck you,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: and he pours a ton of cocaine on the console,
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: spills it on the console, and he puts his big
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: fat head on the console and snorts it like a
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: monster off the console. Jimmy comes in. They love each
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: other and give big hugs to each other, and then
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: Jimmy starts doing cocaine and the session is over because
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Jimmy can't sing once he's all stuffed up. And it
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: turned out that Harry was very angry that young people
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: were producing his buddy Jimmy, like we did not have
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: the right to produce him. And you know what, we
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: were very precocious kids, but we were really good, Like
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: Matthew and I made an incredible team, and we had
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: really we knew what we were doing and we were
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: doing a wonderfl record for Jim and Jim loved us.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Harry didn't. So that was a bad experience. If it
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: ended there, it'd be it would be fine. But it
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: didn't end there. And so you want me to finish
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: the story.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: I said, yeah, you saw him again, right you ran up?
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. So then a few weeks later, Jimmy had
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: a party at his house in Encino, and my wife
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: and I attended and we had a ball incredible array
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: of people and it was the lovely night, and Harry
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: was there, and you know, I tried to keep away
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: from him, and again he's it was like the Goodyear Blimp.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: He was a big, fat, slobby version of himself, you know,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: But I kept away from him. But in the middle
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: of the party, he came up to me and he
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: said Fred and I said, yeah. He goes, Oh, it's
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: good to see you. He was really nice to me,
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, oh my god, this is great. He's
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: you know, he's accepting me, you know. And I said, oh, great,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: some nice to see Harry. And he said, come with me,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: and so we went to the other living room and
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: he said, you gotta try this shit. And I'm like, thinking,
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: it's cocaine, going I'm there, Harry Nielsen's going to share
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: some cocaine with me. He cupped his hand, so I
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: put my nose into the cup and I snorted, and
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: the next thing I remember was I was on my
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: back and my wife Dina was sobbing over me, and
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: I sort of came too. And it turned out that
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: what he gave me was amyl nitrate, which is stuff
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: that is supposed to start your heart, you know, so
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: it's a medical I mean, it's used recreationally, but it
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: really is for people who need to start their heart.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: And I had snorted that enthusiastically, thinking it was cocaine,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: and I blacked out, apparently, and apparently Dina said to
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: me that when I blacked out. I dropped and I
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: missed a very classic antique hard table. My head missed
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: it by this much what I literally could have been
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: killed or had brain damage or whatever. And when I
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: woke up and come to, I came to, I was
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: lying on my back with Dina crying and Harry's leaning
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: over me, laughing and going it was animal nightrate man,
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: fuck you. And he went away. So the Harry Nielsen
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: that I knew was a devil, I mean, he was
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: a monster.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Well, I was gonna ask I get his reputation prior
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: to that was he was a great guy, nice guy.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Everybody got along with them great.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: And you know, I want to tell you everyone got
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: along with them great as long as they stayed as
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: drunk and stoned as he Jesus.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that that always begs the questions like is
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: that bringing out who you really are? Or are drugs
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: and alcohol?
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I did watch the documentary which I
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: thought was really good. Yeah, years ago. I watched it,
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: and he really had such a terribly sad background in childhood,
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: and I mean he just was a tortured guy. Yeah,
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: but again, that doesn't mean you try to kill me.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Thanks, No, absolutely, Yeah. Grammy nominated Juno Award winning producer
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: and composer Fred Mallin is our guest his book Unplugged,
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Stories and Secrets from a life of making records, scoring film,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: and working with the legends of music. And you sure have,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: including Michael McDonald. There's a photo in the book of
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: him from seventy eight with you at Sunset Sound in Hollywood,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: which is where many of my You could see the
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Van Halen banner behind me, many of the great van
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Halen records were recorded.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: What's it like?
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what's it like working with Michael McDonald's.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Well, Michael, you know, we reached out to Michael. See,
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: I'm a fan of music and I'm a musicologist. Without
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: knowing it, but when the first Doobies album came out
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: that had Michael on it, I had gotten it early
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: on and I listened to that guy and I said,
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: what a voice like. This is the coolest stuff ever.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: And I had known Michael's name because he'd sang on
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Steely Dan's Katie Lyed album, which I was also how over,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: you know. So I listened to a lot of music
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: and I took note of these kinds of things, and
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: I said, man, The drummer on Katie Lyed was Jeff Percao.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: I got to work with him one day. And the
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: vocalist who sang all the backgrounds was Michael McDonald and
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: then he joined the Doobies. And I'm in Toronto and
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: I called him at Amigo Studios because I knew they
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: were recording there, and I called him from Toronto and
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: I said, Hey, I'm Fred Mallen. I told him who
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: I was, and I said, listen, We're going to do
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: some recording in La on an artist named Randy Goodrum
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: for Clive Davis's label. Would you consider singing backgrounds for us?
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: And he was like, yeah, no problem, man, of course
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: I'll do it, you know, and I was like, this
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: is great. So Matt and I flew to la and
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: we did three days of background vocals and overdubs on
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: this project, and Michael and Leah Kunkle, who just passed
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: away sadly, but Michael sang backgrounds for us on three
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: songs for Randy and they were superb and just lifted
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: the recordings up so much. But more importantly, we were
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: about the same age and we just got along like
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: a house on fire, So you know, I've known Michael
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: forever and we've worked together on so many different things,
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: and we're such great pals. And I love his wife.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: I've produced his wife, Amy MacDonald, who goes under the
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: name of Amy Holland they're just the most dear people
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: and their extended family. But it started with that.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, So is he like his voice is so great?
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Is he like a one take guy? Do you even
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: have to?
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: He certainly can good, you know, I mean, I mean,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: you know, when you have somebody that gifted and you
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: have the opportunity to try a few more passes, you
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: do it.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And he's he's got a great sense of humor.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: He's also he seems very humble. The Captain Kangaroo's story, right, Oh.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: My god, he's so self deprecating and it's hysterical.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Somebody at the airport, oh, I know you and they
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: went to their husband and wife said, hey, that's Captain
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: Kangaroo because he had gained a few pounds I think
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: at the time, I.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: Mean, you know, Michael's weight would fluctuate and with the
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: big white mustache and beer, you know, Michael said to
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: me Fred, you know, listen, it wasn't two months ago,
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: I was going through the airport and someone said, hey,
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: you know where that is, and the other girl said, yeah,
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: Santa Claus. So you know he'd make fun of himself
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: and he still does. He has well. He has the
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: most self deprecating sense of humor.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you want to, next time you talk
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: to him, because I have a few friends women who
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: are just still in love with him, so you could
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: tell him.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: That he listen. In my lifetime, I don't think there's
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: anyone more soulful and more brilliant.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Oh Man than Michael. Yeah. Absolutely. You work with Ronnie
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Hawkins in nineteen eighty one. Hysterical one man wrecking crew
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: is how you described him. He's got bo Diddley stories
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: said he.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. All we did with Ronnie's album I'm
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: When I moved back to Toronto, my wife and I
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: after three years in LA had had enough from seventy
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: eight to eighty one. At that point, I was no
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: longer working with Matt, so I was on my own
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: as a producer, and we wanted to have kids, and
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: I missed Toronto and we said, you know, let's go
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: back to and have kids there and hopefully when I
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: got back to Toronto. I figured I'd be a hometown
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: hero and be really busy, and frankly, it never happened.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: It was sort of like, oh, we sort of remember you.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: But I did get one project the minute I got
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: back to Toronto in eighty one, which was producing Ronnie Hawkins,
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: whose most famous place in history is you know, he
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: was a fifties rocker who moved to Canada and became
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: sort of the mayor of Young Street in Toronto and
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: had this lovely career and became a Canadian icon, but
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: never really had hit records. But he was just a
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: great entertainer. But his background of his history that people
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: will always talk about is one of his last bands
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: that he put together in the sixties turned out to
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: be the Band so Levon Helm Garth, Robbie Robertson, Rick Danko,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: and Richard Manuel, they were all Hawks. Basically it was
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Ronnie who discovered those guys and turned them into a
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: band which then became came the Band. So for that alone,
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Ronnie should be in the Hall of the Rock and
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: Roll Hall of Fame. He's certainly in the Canadian Hall
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: of Fame. But making that record in eighty one, after
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: I had returned to Toronto. Was absolutely I mean literally,
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: I had never laughed so hard in a studio all
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: day long in my life. He was literally he was
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: like Andrew Dice Clay and he was just like one
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: disgusting story after the next, one disgusting aside after the next,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: and all we did was laugh and we made a
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: great record. I actually I won him a Juno Award.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: I gave him a hit record in Canada and always
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: loved him. He's gone now, but we really had a
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: wonderful time making that record, and his stories were absolutely disgusting.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I cannot believe that all the members of the
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: band are no longer with us now.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: That's right, they're all gone now. Garth was the last one.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: Book on rock podcasts. We'll be back after this. Ah,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: here's knife.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: He looked away to the future.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: You're that horizon verg his mind on where you are
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: any piece of advisor, What would be the first thing
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: you tell if somebody's a young person, right, I listen
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: to this. They want to get into producing music, rock
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: and roll music, pop music, whatever, But what's your piece
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: of advice that you would give them?
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: I produced and started my career back in the day,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: and it's no longer what it was then. So I
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: just want people to know if they really can't do
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: anything else, if literally they're so driven that they have
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: a calling, and that calling is to direct music in
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: the studio, meaning being a record producer. And if that's
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: their dream and they want to pursue it and they
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: have no other choice, that's the only advice I give
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: you is to go for it. But let me tell
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: you that it's way tougher now. It is, absolutely you know,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: your chances of having success are so slim, and even
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: if you have great records that you make only one
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: percent of all new music sales. So you know, that's
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: a different world. I don't know, and this is a
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: chilling thing to say, but I don't know if I
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: would have pursued my career if I had started now.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because the business model now is drastically different than.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: There's no comparison. It's literally has no relation to what
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: I started with.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: How do record labels survive?
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: Well? Record labels do great because what's happening now is
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: that the major labels and the smaller labels make all
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: their money from their back catalog, which is streamed, so
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: they make a fortune without having to do anything. So
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: they don't even have to manufacture product anymore. So they
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: no longer need marketing of those records. They don't need
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: distribution of those records. They're just available on streaming and
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: they just collect.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: So they still make money.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so I'm saying, but you know, everyone makes money,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: but the record labels make the most. And so literally,
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: record labels now no longer have to sign new artists
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: they don't want and most of the time they don't
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: want to, and they don't have to have product manufactured.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: They just put it out there and it's streamed. And
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: so again, you know, we're looking at a whole other
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: world now. You know, in the old days, you know,
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: we really had a shot. I don't think I would
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: ever have had a shot.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Now because that led to job cuts, and that leads
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: to now where it's probably difficult to get a job.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, they don't need it no longer. Half the
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: reason that you'd have people working at a record label
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: were because there was actual product being manufactured and having
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: to be marketed, and they'd be signing all sorts of
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: new acts. None of that happens. I mean, literally, these
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: labels are making a fortune off of all the iconic
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: artists that they have that are streamed, you know, one
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: hundred million, two hundred million times a day, and so
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: they just make they make great money and they don't
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: have to do anything.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Speaking of finances, when your movie career takes off, at
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: that point, you're really in need of money, and all
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: of a sudden you have more work than you can
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: keep up at one point, so mid eighties, right, this
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: is when you have a child and suddenly film work
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: comes along.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we had moved back from la I was trying
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: to continue my life as a record producer in Toronto
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: and didn't have a lot of success. Did a few projects,
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't like I said, it wasn't a homecoming
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: hero scenario. And again this is a part of my life.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Someone calls up and says, do you want to try this,
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: and I'll say, yeah, I'll try that, you know. And
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: that was scoring a TV movie, and then it became
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: someone called and wanted me to score a big movie
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: in the sense that it was going to be distributed,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: you know, with a lot of theaters and it was
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: an actual feature and I did that, and so all
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: of a sudden, I just made this left turn without
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: really wanting to, but it was paying me and it
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: was musical, and so I became a TV and film
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: composer from around eighty five. My son was born in
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: eighty four, and by eighty five I was sort of
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: making a living, no longer really in records, and again
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: don't forget the Dan Hill money you know, had not
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: been coming in and still didn't come in, so my
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: biggest hit was not bringing me any royalties. So yeah,
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: it was a little bit tough, and all of a
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: sudden projects came in that were challenging for me. I
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: was interested in the challenge, and I had no interest
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: whatsoever previously of being a film and TV composer, but
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: I started to become one and I fell into it,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: and I sort of liked the challenge and I liked
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: the money. The money was good, and then by eighty
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: seven I was full time and really making great money,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: both on the back end through my airplay royalties as
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: well as from my fees.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: So I'm fascinated with the process of this. Are you
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: given the film to watch as is without music and
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: come up with the music based on what you're seeing?
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Are they giving you direction? Are they saying this is
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: what we're looking for.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean again, I did a lot of TV
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: series work, dramatic TV series. So once you start a series,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: you know you're working with a team of people, and
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: once you've already created a sonic and musical landscape that
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: they like, there's really no time for them to oversee you.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: You do your work and deliver it. So you know,
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: on all the TV series I did, especially the ones
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: that were long running, once the thing got going, everyone
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: trusted each other and everyone did their job and delivered it.
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: And as long as you didn't drop the ball and
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: not delivered on time, they loved you. And it was
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: a lot of teamwork and camaraderie in that regard. And
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: as far as you know, if I was doing a
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: one off project like a movie, I'd sneak in a
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: movie occasionally or TV movie, then there's a little more
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: involvement because you're working a little closer with the director.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: On TV series, by the time you get to the
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: show in post production, that director's gone and they're doing
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: the next show, so you know. So I didn't really
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: have a lot to do, but when I did work
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: in other movies, then yes, you would work very closely
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: with the director. You'd audition music for him, which is
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: what we did the first episode of each series. But
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: once they signed off on what you did, it was like, man,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: we're busy, just keep going.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: You did nine O two to zero. I did one season,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: one season. I'm a huge Friday the Thirteenth fan, so
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: you're in part seven and eight. But prior to the movies,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: you did the TV series and then that led to
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: the fifth.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: The Yeah film, I was hired. It was shot in Toronto.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: Friday the Thirteenth the series and Frank Mancuso Junior was
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: the person at Paramount who really oversaw all of the
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: Friday the Thirteenth franchise. So after doing I think maybe
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: forty episodes of that series, they did Part seven with
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: the original composer Harry Manfordina using his previously recorded score,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: and so on Part seven they couldn't finish it, and
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: they called me and said, hey, can you write music
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: similar to Harry in its sound and then in a
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: sense co score it with the music we have from Harry,
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: And I said, of course. Again I don't turn down gigs,
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: you know, so I just said, yeah, of course, I'll
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: do it. And then that moved on. They did Part eight,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: which was Jason Takes Manhattan, and that one I worked
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: with a guy named Rob Head who I'd worked with
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: on the TV series and I love Rob and he
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: wanted to work with me as the full composer on
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: that movie and that was really great fun as well
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: to work with Rob. And again, because it was a movie,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: you work a little closer with the director, at least initially.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: But that's how the movies came about, as I had
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: already become the I did seventy two episodes of Friday
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: the Thirteenth, the series, so I was the composer that
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: they felt would understand how to work with them.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Writing for horror? How do you? How is that for you?
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know again, I'm just like one of
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: these guys where someone says, hey, do you want to
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: do an accordion album with you know, a guy who
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: only screams? I'll say, sure, it's a gig, yeah, the
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: gig is a gig is a gig.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: And I've never been in that position where I really don't.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, the only time I turned down gigs is
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: when I don't like the person and I can tell
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: already that I won't get along with them has only
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: happened like three times in my entire career.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: So other than that, you're able to shift gears, whatever the.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: So it really whatever they asked for, you know. Listen
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: on AK some would have called and said we need
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: you to orchestrate like John Williams and we needed and
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: I'd say, well, I can hire an orchestrator, and I
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: can do that. And most times they would say, okay, great,
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: you know, but occasionally someone say, no, we really want
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: someone who's within the budget, can orchestrate everything and work
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: with a large orchestra. Well that's not me, you know.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: I was doing a lot of my music using Kurzwel
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: two fifty and other synthesizers and samplers, and I would
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: be playing everything and improvising my music until it was
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: right for the scene. So that was the kind of
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: composer and TV film guy that I was.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: So nineteen eighty seven was a huge year for you.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: That's your favorite.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: Eighty seven was a watershed year because I don't think
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: I've ever been busier. I was doing three series at once,
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: one of them took me to La every two weeks.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: I was co starring in a rock and roll variety
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: show in Toronto on CBC and my daughter was born.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was just the craziest, wildest, most beautiful year. Yeah.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Well, that's why I want to ask you, because sometimes
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: I get I think we all do. But I've gotten
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: to the points recently where I do have a lot
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: of offers that come my way and I don't say no,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: and I spread myself so thin. Now I'm starting to
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: crack and I can't keep up. How do you handle that?
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Do you say no? I mean, I don't know.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: You know, by the grace of God or dog or whatever,
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: I just was lucky enough or hard working enough that
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: I just was able to keep.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: Going somehow find a way to do it.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: But I'll tell you the honest truth is that in
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: two thousand and one I moved to Nashville and changed
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: my life, and I wanted to go back to making
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: records full time with live musicians, and I said, I'll
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: never score another TV series again, and I never did.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: Booked on rock podcasts. Will be back after this bring
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: to take a break. He'll be back. So maybe a
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: comment or two on some of these folks that you
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: work with too because there's so many, but Bruce Springsteen.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: I think Bruce Springsteen's one of the greatest entertainers and
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: artists of our time. I think he's a giant. There's
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: probably nobody better live performer in my opinion than Bruce Springsteen.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: And as far as the records he's made, they're giant.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: So he's he is one of my absolute favorites, has
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: been since, you know, the seventies. I've never worked with him,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: but I worked with his wife on a Rita Wilson
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: overdubbed Duet and I got to spend time with Bruce
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: at his studio in New Jersey and he was lovable.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: He was great.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: Just after Clarence passed too, I think he exactly.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was still do very much in mourning over Clarence.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Paul Schaefer, Paul.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: And I when I first moved to Toronto, we played
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: in Tony Koseneck's backing group and Paul was on keyboard.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: He was fresh from thunder Bay, Ontario. I was fresh
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: from Long Island and we wound up in Toronto around
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: the same time. He's a little older than me and
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: we just became fast friends and art to this day.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Danny Korchmar. Some listening may not know who Danny
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: Korchmar is. They've heard him play on songs. He's so
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: important to rock history.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: He really is, you know, I mean Danny. He's known
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: as Cooch. But I love Danny so much. We became
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: great friends. I had a home in Martha's Vineyard for
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: years and years. Now I just rent, but I had
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: my house there for years. And Danny was a vineyarder
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: as well in the summers growing up there. And Danny
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: is one of those guys that they really need to
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: write a book on Danny, or Danny needs to write
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: his book because he was so pivotal on so many things,
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Like he's the guy who grew up with James Taylor
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: on Martha's vineyard in the summers on Martha's vineyard. He's
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: the one who bullied James into being a solo artist.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: There would be no James Taylor without Danny. Same thing
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: with Carol King. He played with Carol King when she
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: started to put her toe in the water as a
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: solo artist at the end of the sixties into the
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: early seventies, and Danny again bullied her saying, you're going
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: to be a solo artist, and to this day, both
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: of those artists say, if it wasn't for Danny, we
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: would not be doing what we do. So he's a
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: really interesting character. He can be a bully, a lovable bully,
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: and he is so delightful on so many levels. We
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: just get along like gangbusters and have been great friends
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: ever forever. But again, he's someone who's done something any
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: great things as a session player along with his buddies
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: Russ Kunkle and Lee Squar and wa do you walk
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: tell they.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: Did a documentary on all of them.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, you see documentary called The Immediate Family, which is
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: all about Danny and the band. And you know, again,
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: I had something to do with that documentary, which is delightful.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: But Danny's stories, you know. Danny also became a producer.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: He wound up co producing Don Henley on his Big Records,
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: and he also produced Billy Joel's last record that had
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: River of Dreams on it. Dan's so gifted. The difference
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: between Danny and I as producers is Danny has no
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: bedside matter, and he's the first one to tell you yeah,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: and I have one hundred percent bedside matter.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Jeff Porcaro drummer from Toto. You said best you've worked with,
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: best drummer.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: Never been a better studio drummer than Jeff.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: And why do you say that? What is it about it?
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: It was magical. He just had a touch and a
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: feel and a soul and an enthusiasm and a passion
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: combined in one person that we had never seen. And
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: everyone will say the same thing. Jackson Brown loved working
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: with Jackson. He and I did a couple of duets
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: with him over the years, and we always enjoyed working
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: with each other. I've never gotten to know him well,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: but we certainly have spent time together, and I'm just
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: such a great fan.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: Joe Cocker had his vocals had you in tears.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I've only gotten to work with a few people once,
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: and Joe was one of those people. That we were
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: doing the second of two Jimmy Webb duet albums, and
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: I said to Jimmy, you know, what do you think
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: about bringing Joe Cocker on as a duet? This is
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: twenty eleven. I think I said, what about Joe doing
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: Moons a Harsh Mistress with you as a duet? Because
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Joe had done a definitive version of Jimmy's song Moons
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: a Harsh Mistress, and Jimmy loved the idea and we
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: called Joe. You know, we got a hold of Joe's
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: manager and then Joe said, of course, I'll do this,
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: and we wound up in La while Joe was recording
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: a solo album. I think this was twenty eleven maybe
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: or twenty twelve. It was certainly about six or seven
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: months before he passed, and we just again, he's just
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: a delightful guy. And you know, we did a couple
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: of overdub passes on his parts of the of the
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: song where he sang his lead with the duet, and
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: we were all just sobbing because it was so emotional,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: you know. I mean, Joe Cocker is now being inducted
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. It's taken
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: this long, but this he's so deserving. I mean, he
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: was just really such a soulful singer and artist, and
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: what a great thrill it was for me to work
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: with him. It was only that one time, but it
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: was it was marvelous from.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: A producer standpoint. If you had to pick a song
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: or an album that you would say like that is
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: it like the definitive creation. What would it be because
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: pet Sounds comes to mind now. I seem to I
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: like that more and more as I get older, Like
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: I didn't flick with I mean the Beatles.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think in the top ten of course
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: is Sergeant Pepper Born to run. Bruce Springsteen, that album
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: shook me up. Pet Sounds, course by the Beach Boys
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: is a work of genius, you know, I have, there's
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: too many albums that I love, but those those three,
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: you know, yeah, those are top ten.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Sure, I mean Pet Salles is so ahead of its time,
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: so nobody really got it at the time.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Wasn't that much of a success initially? You know?
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah? So finally, because my mother loves Johnny Mathis, you
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: worked with him and Billy Joel right, that was in
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: twenty eleven.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: Sounds right. Well, first of all, I've produced two duets
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: with Billy and I love him. We got along famously.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: We're both Long Island kids. Oh he's a little bit
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: older than me, but again we had just a great connection.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: So I worked on a duet with him and Jimmy
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: Webb for Jimmy on Wichita Lineman. And then when I
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: was doing Johnny's Christmas album Sending You a Little Christmas,
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: which I think again was like twenty twelve. Recording it
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: in Nashville. I reached out to Billy and said, would
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: you want to do a duet with Johnny? And he
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, I'm there, you know, and he flew
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: himself in and he wanted to do it with john which,
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the duets I do are
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: done after the you know, the main artist has done
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: their parts, and then we overdubbed the duet. But Billy
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: wanted to be there for the day of the musicians
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: with Johnny live and we did chestnuts roasting on an
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: open fire, which is called the Christmas Song. And I
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: had positioned who would sing, what lines and what verses, etc.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: What harmonies and so on. And you know, john even
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: at ninety right now, still has the same voice that
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: he had when he was twenty. It's remarkable. Billy probably
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: didn't know what to expect, but when they started singing
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: together and Columbia shot all this on videothough I've never
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: seen any of it, but I do remember watching Billy,
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: who was in one isolation booth but could see Johnny
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: and could hear Johnny and vice versa, and at one
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: point the song modulates and Johnny has to hit some
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: really high notes, and Johnny did it so effortlessly, and
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: Billy just looked at me like like he just could
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: not believe what he just heard live. Yeah, and it is,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: by the way, that particular version of the Christmas Song
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: with Johnny and Billy I think should be a Hall
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: of Fame Grammy Hall of Fame recording.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: My favorite Christmas album, hands down, is the one where
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: mathis He's on the skis.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: That's the original one.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: That's the original one, like.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: Him in a photo studio with a winter outfit and skis,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: but he was sweating to death or something.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: My dad played it every Christmas, and I remember putting it,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: transferring it under cassette, and then I got it on
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: CD and now it's of course you can get it.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, listen. I've produced two of Johnny's Christmas albums,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: but he's done.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: Six six altogether. Yeah. Unplugged Stories and Secrets from a
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: life of making records, scoring film, and working with the
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: legends of music. The book is out now right. You
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: can find it wherever. May eleventh, it's May eleven, okay,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: So we're recording this on May the second, so right
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: right around the time we run this, so look for it.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: You can pre order it if it hasn't come out yet,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: And where can people find you online? You have a website.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, I don't have a lot of time checking on it,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: but you can write to me through the website. Also,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: if you want the book autographed, there's a website now,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: Fredmullin unplugged dot com where you can order the book
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: and it'll get signed by me. So that's available. And
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: I'm still a work in progress. I'm busy working in
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: the studio and very very fortunate person. I've had an
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: incredible life in music and never wanted to end.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: Fred, thank you for doing this and so many stories,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: and I promise you folks, there's much more in this book.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. And I really really had a ball.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: Thank you. That's it. It's in the books.