Latest / SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day! / Yoreh De’ah 268:12. Conversion: Children; Intermarriages, Valid, Invalid, Questionable, Kohen, Irreligious

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Yoreh De’ah 268:12. Conversion: Children; Intermarriages, Valid, Invalid, Questionable, Kohen, Irreligious · SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day!

• 0:01
  OK, just a few things to wrap up helpless Girium of stuff that we
• 0:05
  spoke out before. First one thing really interest,
• 0:08
  one interesting thing here. How come some ask how can we
• 0:11
  normally see Girium come more often from let's say Christians
• 0:16
  and not from Muslims? So it's brought down in Homa
• 0:19
  Tanakh that based on the Ariza, that yesh that asaf we know Asaf
• 0:27
  was came from a Jewish mother, right?
• 0:31
  Malcolm Kadusha. But Muslims who come from
• 0:35
  Ishmael. Well, he, he comes from Hagar.
• 0:39
  And at the time, even though his father was Abraham, Abraham
• 0:42
  didn't have a Bruce Mila yet. And it just there wasn't the
• 0:45
  same, the same kadusha in the genes.
• 0:49
  OK, we spoke about a cotton. So we spoke about that in order
• 0:55
  for it to the cotton bays din to do it for a cotton, it has to be
• 1:00
  a zechus for the right to help out the child.
• 1:03
  So some want to point out that I think it's in Melamed Lahoyo,
• 1:11
  for example. So he writes that sometimes and
• 1:16
  and some others also point out sometimes we say it.
• 1:19
  No, we say la kathila, the normal din is unless we know
• 1:23
  he's going to be shomer mitzvahs.
• 1:25
  We say it's not going to be as unless he's going to be.
• 1:28
  It's only as if it's shomer mitzvahs if we know he's not
• 1:31
  going to have a proper Jewish upbringing.
• 1:34
  So then we assume it's we're not allowed to, That's that's clear.
• 1:40
  But under certain circumstances, such as the family is having a
• 1:46
  child anyway, it's a mother. Let's say the mother is non
• 1:49
  Jewish and the father is Jewish and they're already together and
• 1:54
  they have a child and that's the way it's going to be.
• 1:58
  And now are they going to remain part of the Jewish people or is
• 2:02
  she's willing to convert and become Jewish and the otherwise
• 2:05
  the father says I'm going to the child's not going to get any any
• 2:09
  Jewish background and he's probably going to even go off
• 2:12
  the Derrick even worse again all these different situations.
• 2:16
  Keep in mind, but I mean situations to consider.
• 2:19
  You know, Bishop have questions that come up.
• 2:22
  But anyways, the point is he writes and some say that it's
• 2:25
  also can be it's a question. Some say it's for sure not a but
• 2:30
  some right? It's actually he writes, it's a
• 2:32
  real just the fact that he's going to have a father is going
• 2:36
  to have a proper normal home. It's not going to be a broken
• 2:39
  home and he's going to have be raised financially in the stable
• 2:44
  house that it's already that already is a it's also a even if
• 2:50
  I have plenty of averas. He says that is A and then also
• 2:56
  it's supposed to become part of Zerah to to join the Jewish
• 3:00
  people. Even if you're going to get a
• 3:03
  lot of averas. Depends how you know.
• 3:05
  Again, this is beyond the sheer but and how things work in
• 3:08
  Shamai. No one knows 100%, but you might
• 3:11
  get you might suffer a lot in Gehenam per SE, but your
• 3:16
  mitzvahs could you could still be Khelik Olamahabah.
• 3:21
  And once you pass through Gehenam, that might be extra
• 3:24
  long, but then you also get a higher level of Olam Haba.
• 3:28
  So there is, there is. It's not so black and white.
• 3:34
  There is an interesting stock of Zhen of Rabbani in the basin of
• 3:37
  Inyushalayam, and I think it was in the 1950s.
• 3:41
  Tashem Tete Tvov can do your math.
• 3:44
  There are others, sort of Al Yashev and Rav Jyoti.
• 3:49
  They were the dayanium and they had a case, interesting case
• 3:54
  that a father basically I, I wouldn't use the word kidnap,
• 3:57
  but basically took the child. It was a non, it was a Jewish
• 4:01
  father with a non Jewish mother. So the child Allahuca belongs to
• 4:07
  the mother and the father has no jurisdiction.
• 4:10
  But the father without the mother's permission basically
• 4:14
  took the child to get converted. And the question is, was it a
• 4:18
  valid conversion? Because the father is not
• 4:23
  supposed to if since he was Jewish.
• 4:29
  If they're both non Jews, so then the father can bring a
• 4:32
  child normally either a child brings the a normal they're both
• 4:37
  parents are non Jews. That's a normal case of right?
• 4:40
  It was normal case of starting. So who brings the a case of a
• 4:44
  cotton getting converted? It's it's either going to be the
• 4:47
  the father. If there's no father, then it
• 4:50
  could be the mother or the child himself can come to a a Basdon,
• 4:55
  but it should never be. It's never it's it's it it can't
• 4:59
  never really be properly done where a father who's not really
• 5:02
  the father, because here he was Jewish.
• 5:04
  So he didn't he wasn't shy after the to the son and he took the
• 5:07
  child against the will and then he basically.
• 5:11
  So that was the case. The father was married to a non
• 5:15
  Jew. The father was married to a non
• 5:16
  Jew is not related to the father, right?
• 5:20
  Is not related to the father. It belongs to the mother, a non
• 5:24
  Jewish mother. So anyways, what happens over
• 5:26
  here in such a case so that they so they give a couple mascanas.
• 5:32
  You know, you should never convert a child unless you know
• 5:34
  he's going to have a Jewish from education.
• 5:38
  Again, not everybody agrees depending on the situation as we
• 5:43
  mentioned and then he he's so it's a question if it could be
• 5:48
  he says not if the Garrus already happens.
• 5:50
  It's a Suffolk if it works, if it's a it's a question, they
• 5:59
  leave it as a suck. It's a this child is a Suffolk
• 6:03
  goy Suffolk gear and that's how they leave him.
• 6:09
  And therefore in the future, you have must be labeled as a
• 6:12
  Suffolk gear. And if he wants to convert
• 6:14
  afterwards, he wants to be part of the Jewish people.
• 6:16
  He must do a toughest on bris and then tabila the whole thing.
• 6:21
  And but you have to also be a Khoshasin for Kibusha and
• 6:24
  everything that comes that comes with that.
• 6:27
  Anyway, that was that. Let's see what are a couple
• 6:33
  interesting things here? What happened?
• 6:36
  So we we mentioned what happens. I'm trying to think where do we
• 6:39
  want to go with all this? Can you convert a couple who
• 6:42
  already is married civilly? So they're let's let's say a Jew
• 6:47
  and a non Jew and they marry civilly.
• 6:50
  So it's obviously it's not a very firm situation and but
• 6:56
  let's say she wants to now. So the question, she may or may
• 7:02
  not want to keep the mitzvah. So that's the question.
• 7:05
  So let's so like this Le Aquila. We don't do such a shit
• 7:10
  situation. The shame Isha us, we don't
• 7:12
  marry someone like Aquila in order for a person wants to
• 7:17
  convert just for the purposes of marrying.
• 7:20
  So then normally we don't want to accept such a case.
• 7:24
  However, that's only a Dinder Abana and I think that's I think
• 7:28
  that's according to everybody that we don't accept Lachey
• 7:30
  Mischis for obvious reasons, because Kashi Misra algarium
• 7:34
  Israel. If they're not properly from
• 7:37
  afterwards, it just it's not a good situation and they
• 7:40
  influence us badly, however reluctantly, when a when a
• 7:45
  couple's going to want to stay together anyway and you either
• 7:50
  you're either going to be makari of them or distance them.
• 7:53
  So they're in such a case. If if we're talking about a
• 7:56
  usrel, A usrel, a regular Jew, not a coin is with a non Jewish
• 8:04
  girl lady. So then the egos, Moshe Yabi
• 8:08
  Omer malama La Hoya, la Kiezer, shwarma cougar, they all say
• 8:13
  reluctantly, it's smutter and perhaps you should marry them.
• 8:18
  But it has to be a situation where there's Kabbalah's mitzvos
• 8:22
  can't be a joke. It can't be where she's not
• 8:25
  going to keep neither, she's not going to keep Shabba, she's not
• 8:27
  going to keep kosher. That can't be because it has to
• 8:31
  be Kabbalah's mitzvos. OK, if now Milama La Hoya, he
• 8:38
  actually says, even if you know they're not going to keep the
• 8:41
  mitzvahs, don't bring it up at the Garrus.
• 8:44
  Just tell her the mitzvahs. You know the basic.
• 8:49
  You have to tell her that she's accepting all the mitzvahs and
• 8:53
  you have to tell her you know the basic ones.
• 8:54
  That's a Shabbos Sunita, whatever.
• 8:56
  But you don't don't talk about the fact that she might not stay
• 9:03
  from you know, after a minute after the Garrus you walk and
• 9:08
  OK, so anyway, so that's that that's she can't say Buffiro.
• 9:12
  She's not going to keep them in. So that would be a major that
• 9:15
  everyone agrees it's not OK, let's see.
• 9:21
  Interesting. Even though the Khakila we know
• 9:23
  that a Nitan Alan Nokrit, a person who is suspected to go
• 9:27
  with a non Jew, that person is not you're not is an Issa
• 9:31
  Derabanan that's in in Yavamos and Mishnah.
• 9:36
  It's an Issa Derabanan for that man to now marry her when she
• 9:39
  converts. But but in these cases they're
• 9:43
  already together. That's only in Din la Kakila.
• 9:45
  Here they're already married and there's a concept of takanas of
• 9:50
  takanas de shaving takanas. It's different cases in order to
• 9:55
  save these people from because they're they're not going to
• 9:59
  change there. So therefore there is definitely
• 10:02
  what to rely on. OK, if it's a cohane, the
• 10:07
  problem with the Cohen is a giorit Halochekly, but
• 10:12
  Halochekly this woman at any convert is considered a the
• 10:17
  under the category of a zona. Zona doesn't congest mean a
• 10:22
  gilard doesn't necessarily have to mean anything worse.
• 10:24
  So that's but a Cohen is usser to marry a convert that's that's
• 10:29
  a a din is nothing to play with. So therefore egress Moshe and
• 10:33
  Yabiya Omar says they would not convert such a person, but
• 10:36
  Malama La Hoya would even allow such a thing as long as she
• 10:40
  doesn't say she's not accepting that halacha if this and if the
• 10:48
  if it's a coin. So you know that they're going
• 10:50
  to stay together. And he he's definitely a
• 10:55
  minority opinion, but he he says don't in that situation, in a
• 11:01
  difficult situation, correct. In that situation, these are all
• 11:05
  Bishat Adhak. These are all reluctant Bishat
• 11:09
  Adhak cases. But he says there is what to
• 11:11
  room. But he says you don't marry her,
• 11:13
  don't do Kedushin between a Cohen and a Giorret.
• 11:16
  You can convert her, but it's better that they're together.
• 11:21
  Yeah, he says it's better that they're together, non married as
• 11:24
  a Giorret then for them to go be completely have a Christian
• 11:28
  house and you lost them completely.
• 11:31
  So that's, but that's, that was a big mojocus in their times and
• 11:34
  these times how to deal with it. I think everybody would agree
• 11:38
  anyway. But I think a red line for every
• 11:40
  reputable basin would be can't be a scandalous situation where
• 11:46
  you have a marriage where you have a proper husband and wife
• 11:50
  and the Jew while they're married.
• 11:53
  This man has a we call a midlife crisis and finds a Jewish shiksa
• 11:59
  to be with. Then no, he's married with a
• 12:04
  Jewish woman. And then he decides to go with
• 12:06
  the shiksa and divorce his wife and now convert the shiksa that
• 12:11
  he found in the office or whatever it is.
• 12:14
  So that is hard to say that it's that this is a conversion with
• 12:18
  shame Shamain. So this would be that would be
• 12:20
  very hard for a reputable Baisden to do.
• 12:23
  I don't think even the Malama Lahoya would allow such a
• 12:26
  situation. But OK, it's important to point
• 12:33
  out when we mentioned hoshi Shim, this is an interesting
• 12:36
  distinction. Hoshi Shim we said maybe in the
• 12:39
  case of a questionable marriage, questionable conversion,
• 12:43
  questionable conversion such as Shim shun or any of these, the
• 12:47
  shame ishit situations. So, so that so we say hoshi
• 12:53
  Shim, we have to watch after them.
• 12:55
  So the normative halach, I believe according to most
• 12:58
  postgame is and that's egress Moshe of the Omer.
• 13:01
  They say that once she converts, even if it's we're not doesn't
• 13:06
  look so good. We're not sure what the you know
• 13:09
  it is it and intentions are good or not.
• 13:12
  But she does Kabbalah some mitzvos and does to Vila and
• 13:16
  everything is done properly and she says I keep all the mitzvos.
• 13:19
  So the halacha is that's it. She's 100% Jewish, a convert,
• 13:25
  it's done and there's no going back whatsoever.
• 13:27
  What does Koshishin mean? It's not clear.
• 13:30
  Maybe for Nemanas, maybe for Aidas, maybe to treat them, to
• 13:35
  put them in nidui, whatever it is, but they're 100% good
• 13:39
  kedusha Kedushin, and there's no questions asked.
• 13:42
  However, the akhieza writes no, no, no.
• 13:44
  And he says this in the halacha in the Rambam, when it says
• 13:47
  Koshishin, it means now this is a gair MI suffik.
• 13:52
  It might be a dasyaki, I don't know, but that's so he says it's
• 13:56
  a suffik and that's why it's Koshishim and therefore Lahomra.
• 14:00
  You say Kedusha of kedushim, but if you want to marry her, then
• 14:05
  they are it's it's a suffik and you have to do a gairus again.
• 14:09
  Now this is an important thing. Let's say he's a gair, says I'm
• 14:14
  going to keep all the mitzvahs, but it's done.
• 14:16
  But the guerre knows, you know, or the guerre maybe even says
• 14:20
  really better not to say it at the time of conversion, but
• 14:24
  they're going to Nick Shaw sometimes at the oven they have.
• 14:27
  And this plays into some of these conversions, questionable
• 14:32
  conversions. But let's say a person is going
• 14:35
  to do a they know they're going to be next Shaw.
• 14:36
  They have their favorite, favorite, I don't know,
• 14:39
  cheeseburger that they're going to eat once in a while.
• 14:42
  They just they, they can't hold back.
• 14:44
  There are Igos. Moshe was given a case where a
• 14:46
  woman says, I think I'm going to have to go to work on Yom
• 14:48
  Tosheni because I I might go in. It's it's, it's an interesting
• 14:52
  case. It brings in.
• 14:52
  I'm going to sneak in or I'm going to go in.
• 14:54
  I'm going to try not to do any Easter EDA Raisa, whatever their
• 14:57
  abandoned, whatever the case was.
• 14:59
  But she doesn't want to lose her job.
• 15:00
  And she's she's, she's afraid. She's, she accepts all the
• 15:02
  mitzvos. So the Achaezra, the gross Moshe
• 15:06
  and I think everybody would agree that even a mitzvah lit
• 15:10
  Te'avon for a mitzvah to, to violate a mitzvah.
• 15:14
  Te'an is not a problem in Kabbalah's mitzvahs.
• 15:17
  It's not a problem in Garrus because they accept the
• 15:21
  mitzvahs. They just know that they're
• 15:22
  going to nexchal. Sometimes we're we're all
• 15:25
  Nexchal. Unfortunately, sometimes when
• 15:28
  Claudius and the paradigm of Giras is Claudius al
• 15:32
  Maharasenai, everybody looked to each other and everyone said OK,
• 15:35
  NASA vanishma. So everybody, even Katani Mucho.
• 15:38
  It's also learned from there that everyone converted.
• 15:41
  We all know that parts of Claudius al are going to do a
• 15:43
  veris and they're going to complain and they're going to
• 15:45
  this and that. That's not a problem and no one
• 15:48
  expects them to learn. As egos Marshall points out,
• 15:50
  Shas and shokanora can learn every halacha.
• 15:53
  Of course we know that they're going to not really keep all the
• 15:56
  halafas, but that that's, that's, that's not a that's not
• 16:00
  a problem. Just when they accept the
• 16:01
  mitzvahs, they say accept the mitzvahs.
• 16:04
  It's not a prevention. But if a person says I'm not
• 16:07
  going to keep one mitzvah, no, this is not shy to me.
• 16:09
  So then that's like, you know, Tavo Vascher, it's Biado.
• 16:13
  It's like, you know, putting a hecture of something's kosher on
• 16:17
  a restaurant when when something is always traif, but the rest is
• 16:22
  kosher. Like can't it has to all be a
• 16:25
  cabala, has to be a full cabala. Can't be can't leave any she or
• 16:28
  any any partial non cabala. But I'm going to be next.
• 16:33
  I'll live to Yevon. Yeah, that's not a problem.
• 16:35
  That's that's not that doesn't hold it back.
• 16:40
  That doesn't all right, that doesn't hold it back.
• 16:42
  And couple quick things. Hootsumidavar ekhad.
• 16:46
  Just interesting to note. It's in the wrong bomb, but it's
• 16:48
  not in our show Kanara Kumaran Bokharo stuff Lahmid Ahmed base.
• 16:52
  It says Hootsumidavar ekhad afilum deep duk sofring.
• 16:56
  Even if one a person says I'm going to keep all the mitzvahs
• 16:59
  except for for except for one, even a dinder abanan.
• 17:06
  So then it's a question So so and this plays into the TE album
• 17:12
  case. If well, just a couple points,
• 17:17
  it'll come out clear when I'm done.
• 17:19
  What are we saying? So if a person holds back on
• 17:21
  even one item, So then well, Shoma Cougar says it's a Dinder
• 17:26
  Abanan, but really, but but the have it, it works there ISA.
• 17:31
  The the Achiazar says if you the whole, the whole Kabbalah thing
• 17:38
  is a Dinder Abana. I think so.
• 17:40
  Therefore, yeah, the Achiazar says fish and everyone else
• 17:47
  writes if if they say Hutzminder ekhad on a Dindar isa, everyone
• 17:50
  says on a Dindar Isa for sure it's not a Garrus even on a
• 17:56
  Dinder Abana. And I think most say, but
• 17:59
  Achiazar says it's a Shila. He's not sure Hutzmi Devar Ekhat
• 18:03
  is of course, it's an archaev lekhat khila in macabre, but
• 18:07
  that the Garrus is not even khal if it's Hutzmi devar ekhat
• 18:11
  Shalderabanan. So there he has a Suffolk.
• 18:14
  So and if a person you know for sure he's not going to keep the
• 18:18
  mitzvos, let's say you know that it's a non religious couple and
• 18:22
  the she and him are you know, they're not going to keep the
• 18:25
  mitzvos. So then if there's an Umdanad de
• 18:28
  Mukhach right on in Sahade, we know he's not going to keep the
• 18:30
  mitzvahs. So there most of the post game
• 18:33
  will say that Beitzhak Egras Moshe Machiazer for sure it's
• 18:38
  not a Garrus and this person is walking around.
• 18:41
  So if you have a conversion, So sometimes in a a questionable
• 18:45
  conversion is done. So sometimes at the end of the
• 18:49
  day, Berieva, this is a ager and sometimes it's it's still a non
• 18:54
  Jew, depending on the Bayesian, depending on the sock or
• 18:58
  whatever who the different opinions, But it's not so it's
• 19:04
  not so simple. One last thing.
• 19:07
  Let's say you know, this is an important let's say she egress
• 19:10
  Moshe was given a question and this kind of follows everything
• 19:13
  we said. Let's say a woman is not going
• 19:15
  to keep smears to the same level that the Abbas Israel has to
• 19:20
  keep because she knows, she knows she sees certain types of
• 19:25
  certain types of from Jews. They keep shomer mitzvahs, but
• 19:30
  they wear short skirts, they don't cover their hair, things
• 19:33
  like that. And there's even rabbis who have
• 19:37
  their wives who don't cover their hair.
• 19:39
  And in the past especially, so therefore he says you don't,
• 19:43
  don't bring it up. And it's not a problem in the
• 19:46
  conversion because essentially they do keep all the mitzvahs.
• 19:50
  And she just doesn't, she accepts all the mitzvahs.
• 19:53
  She just doesn't believe that this basin, but she accepts she
• 19:56
  even accepts Khazal. She accepts the Torah, she
• 19:59
  accepts Khazal, but she believes that according to Khazal, you
• 20:02
  can beat Sanua just like the the fruits of us all the women who
• 20:05
  don't proper Sunius and that's OK too.
• 20:08
  It's that this this Bazin is extra strict.
• 20:10
  She has nothing against the Torah and and then as the Shah
• 20:14
  and as we have the famous story in Hillel and Shalva where you
• 20:20
  can accept a gear based on their sincerity and how you think that
• 20:25
  they're going to. You know they're going to
• 20:28
  they're going to eventually accept everything or whatever,
• 20:33
  right? And he'll find out.
• 20:34
  He can't be a coin got all the case of hello or he can convert
• 20:37
  it on that condition. So he'll find out.
• 20:39
  It's not it's not hoots me and Atara.
• 20:42
  He just thinks that it's OK and that's not a sure.
• 20:45
  It's not holding back the conversion process.