Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / Poor Things with Costume Designer, Holly Waddington

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Poor Things with Costume Designer, Holly Waddington · The Art of Costume Podcast

0:11
The thing that you're talking about with the yellow plastic
0:13
trimming, I think there was an evening dress that she wears in
0:16
in Portugal in lesbian and the trimming is all in, it is in
0:20
polyurethane. So we think we use a lot of
0:22
latex, but we also use loads of polyurethane because it we could
0:26
thrill it and do lots of nice things with it that we could add
0:29
on to the clothes. Hello and welcome to the Art of
0:44
Costume podcast. I'm Elizabeth Joy Glass.
0:46
And I'm Spencer Williams. Elizabeth, good to see you.
0:51
Good to see you. How's it going?
0:54
It's going it's it's award season and so it's it's our time
0:59
to shine. It is, It is.
1:01
It's been. This has been a thrilling year
1:04
for awards season, I must say. I can't keep up.
1:07
I'm kind of exhausted. I don't, I don't get award
1:10
season's fatigue, but I think it's because we were in, like,
1:14
at least I was in the endless Emmy cycle with them getting
1:17
postponed. So I feel like I was just, I've
1:20
been in award season since, I don't know, March of last year.
1:24
And then we just got our Oscar nominations and I'm so, so
1:29
excited for costume design. I just gotta say I predicted all
1:34
of them. You did I?
1:37
Think I'm becoming a little bit of a machine.
1:41
We have Barbie, yeah, We have Barbie with Jacqueline Duran,
1:47
which I think wasn't a shocker. I think we even said that I was
1:52
willing to bet money. Like the work she put into that
1:56
how it just Florida State came out like.
2:00
Deserved. Yeah, we all saw it coming.
2:02
I saw it coming out before the film even came out, honestly.
2:07
Next we had Killers of the Flower Moon with Jacqueline W,
2:10
which I absolutely love. She was on the podcast late last
2:14
year. Yeah, I would be really excited
2:17
to see that film take the Oscar just because of all the work
2:21
and, you know, integrity and accuracy they put into it.
2:24
I think it really paid off. Also 2 Jacqueline's nominated in
2:29
this category. It's kind of like, you know, I
2:32
want to call it battle the Jacqueline's, but I won't.
2:34
No. Then we have Napoleon with
2:38
Chanty Yates and David Crossman, which I'm very excited about.
2:41
Have you seen Napoleon yet? I haven't seen it yet, but I'm
2:44
from like the images and the trailers.
2:46
I'm not surprised that looks like it was like just like way
2:51
too much like research and like, involved detail she had to put
2:57
into the hat. There is a million and two
2:59
costumes. David Crossman did all of the
3:03
military uniforms and all the war scenes, and Enchante Yates
3:07
did basically everything else, including this incredible
3:12
coronation scene that you have to see.
3:14
The costumes are just. That's I was actually trying to.
3:20
I was looking to see if they're they had like reissued it to see
3:24
it in theaters, but so far no. So far, no.
3:28
If I say anything, I'll, I'll let you know.
3:31
Next up, we have Oppenheimer, we have costumes designed by Alan
3:34
Mirage, Nick. I mean, I'm super stoked about
3:37
that. She deserves it.
3:40
That was a wild movie. I'm glad for Oppenheimer.
3:44
I mean, first of all, I mean, it's nominated for basically
3:47
everything. I think Allen did such an
3:50
incredible job with those costumes and really was able to
3:54
tell the story of this, of this man throughout decades.
3:57
And I think it just looked like effortless.
4:01
And yeah, I think it's a masterpiece.
4:03
So I'm happy for Ellen. Absolutely.
4:06
And then we have our final nomination, which is actually
4:12
the topic of today's conversation.
4:14
Poor things if costumes Designed by Holly Waddington and I love
4:21
this movie. I'm not gonna reveal any biases,
4:24
but Poor things is definitely one of my tops.
4:28
I 'cause you see the trailers and you're like, oh, that's
4:33
gonna be a good costume movie. Yeah.
4:36
And then you, 'cause I went into this knowing like nothing about
4:39
the story was blown away by that.
4:44
And then the costumes, 'cause they reveal so little in the
4:48
trailers. I was like, OK, the costumes are
4:50
clearly gonna be good, but Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh.
4:55
It was like I was kind of into steampunk in like high school,
5:02
and this was like high school. Elizabeth's like steampunk,
5:06
dream of what fashion could be. Yeah, it's very like, it's just
5:13
it's so unique and it reminds me of the first time I saw Crimson
5:16
Peak. Honestly.
5:17
Like, it's just so innovative and colorful and the materials
5:22
are just like something you would never think of.
5:25
And like, this came out of someone's brain, you know?
5:28
It's just like, it drives me crazy and I love it.
5:31
It's so beautiful. And every, single, every single
5:35
costume, at least for what Bella Baxter wore, they're like, wow,
5:39
I love that. Wow.
5:40
I love that. Just every single one.
5:42
Even when she was like Bella Baxter was, you know, maybe not
5:46
on a good place. Like the end of the film, we'll
5:48
say and. But even that costume I was
5:51
like, wow, this is sickening, even though she clearly is
5:54
uncomfortable. No, each each piece was just so
6:00
perfect for the moment, for the characters, like, incredible.
6:06
I really want Holly to like collaborate with someone, put
6:11
out a fashion line for this, 'cause I am like about to go get
6:15
some, like really light cottons and like turn those bloomer she
6:21
had into shorts for the summer. Like I was like those.
6:28
Are so cute. They're super cute.
6:31
We should mention that Elizabeth is wearing the biggest sleeves
6:35
ever right now, and I'm just gagging.
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It's so good. I got I got two of these
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sweatshirts with these puff sleeves like two years ago.
6:46
And like, I've always liked them, but I've like, like, I
6:48
haven't worn them that much. Saw.
6:51
Saw poor things. Literally put this on the next
6:54
day. Making this movie our
6:57
personality, I think we should just jump into it because we
7:00
have a lot to talk about. Absolutely.
7:03
Spencer, give us a summary. OK, poor things.
7:08
Brought back to life by an unorthodox scientist, a young
7:12
woman runs off with a lawyer on a whirlwind adventure across the
7:16
continents. Free from the prejudices of her
7:19
times, she grows steadfast in her purpose to stand for
7:23
equality and liberation. And that is poor things.
7:28
Yes. If you have not seen poor
7:30
things, get yourself to a movie theater.
7:34
As soon as possible. It's really great in the
7:36
theaters too. Yeah.
7:37
And I'm like, I'm not one to be like, oh, you have to go see
7:41
everything in a movie theater. Oh my gosh, Go see this in a
7:44
movie theater. Like, do it.
7:49
Going behind the costumes, we have director Yorgos Lanthimos
7:55
and costume designer Holly Waddington.
7:58
She's had various roles in the costume department since 2007,
8:03
but her noble work has been Lady Macbeth and the pilot for The
8:09
Great. Which we love.
8:11
Which we love. But this year she has racked up
8:19
24 nominations for her costume design of poor Things, including
8:24
a Costume Designer Guild Awards nomination, a BAFTA nomination
8:29
and now the Oscars. Team Holly, she is killing it,
8:34
man. She is.
8:35
She is. Well, Elizabeth, I am so excited
8:40
to say, well, first we had Holly kind of on a podcast a few weeks
8:44
ago when I met her in a museum. And if you all listen to it,
8:48
thanks everyone for actually listening to it.
8:50
It did a lot better than I imagined because it was in a
8:55
under construction museum. You could hear power drills in
8:57
the background. My mic wasn't working.
9:01
Holly was like, who is this guy? It was.
9:03
The whole thing was a bit chaotic.
9:05
It still was a great interview, but short.
9:08
So I'm excited to say, though, that we got back together again
9:13
just two days ago to talk about poor things, and it was hours
9:17
before the Oscar nomination. So we don't talk about the
9:22
nominations because they hadn't happened at that point.
9:25
But if you could have heard my thoughts, I was like bugging to
9:27
say like, early congratulations, 'cause it was so obvious to me,
9:31
like, girl, you're about to get nominated in a couple hours, but
9:36
Holly's here in the studio to talk about the costumes of poor
9:39
things. And after we played an
9:41
interview, Elizabeth and I are going to get back together and
9:44
talk about it. I cannot wait to hear this.
10:11
I am so happy to welcome to the podcast for real this time
10:15
costume designer Holly Waddington.
10:18
Hey, Holly, how's it going? It's great.
10:20
Thanks. How are you, Spencer?
10:22
I'm doing good. It's so good to see you so soon
10:25
again. I'm glad that you had time to
10:27
talk with me again about poor things, because I love this
10:30
movie. And I love talking about poor
10:32
things. Oh well, good, because then
10:35
we're going to have a good time. Well, let's start from the
10:38
beginning. Poor Things is such a unique
10:40
creative film and what initially jury to work on a costume design
10:44
for poor things. Well, it was a bit of a no
10:48
brainer really, because I was already a big fan of Yorgas's
10:51
work. I'd seen all of his films and
10:55
and loved them. I'd loved all of them.
10:57
And also I was a big fan of Tony McNamara's, who I had worked
11:01
with on The Great. I did the design, the costumes
11:04
for the pilot episode of The Great.
11:06
And I love, love his voice, love, love, love his writing.
11:11
I think he's a totally new voice actually that we haven't really
11:16
heard before. And as I feel about your losses
11:20
work, you know, they're making this really idiosyncratic,
11:23
singular, subversive, interesting, interesting work.
11:28
That's very much of our of our times.
11:30
Right. Yeah.
11:31
No, it is very fascinating, just feels like such a great
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collaboration between you and all these incredible film
11:37
makers. And one in particular is of
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course Emma Stone, who is incredible as Bella Baxter.
11:45
I'm so excited to talk about Bella Baxter.
11:47
So the time period, that poor things takes place and feels
11:50
Victorian. But when it comes to Bella
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Baxter, you really seem to mix eras and materials departing
11:56
from what we know as traditional Victorian.
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So tell me about that approach. It is so inspiring and
12:03
innovative to me. Oh well thank you.
12:06
Well you know the the the film is sort of set in the 1890s
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that's when we framed the silhouette.
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So all of those big sleeves you know it's it's it's supposed we
12:15
we we use the big sleeves because we just love them as as
12:19
a team. We kind of hit on them and and
12:22
decided to sort of work with that date because of them.
12:27
The book is set in the 1880s. The script is set in the 1880s.
12:30
It didn't matter too much that we pushed it by a decade but
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without you know, we then the Stones character Bella Baxter.
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She the way that she is dressed is, is an expression of where
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she is in her development as a as a person.
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And so all the sartorial rules to do with how you put clothes
12:49
together in which order, what you wear at different times of
12:54
day, how you wear your hair, you know which bits of your body you
12:57
can and can't reveal and at what time of day.
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All of those rules were just thrown out of the window because
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she's not in a position to make to know about those things she's
13:07
got. It's like her brains just
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completely new to the world and she's starting all over again
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and and so we could be very playful with those things and I
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think that is really why they feel contemporary and different.
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We you know, we took the courses away.
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So that was the first thing that we we just felt that having it,
13:30
you know, shackling this, this this very sort of free person
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whose movements are very unpredictable and very sort of
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flailing. Like young children flail about,
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don't they? They don't have a controlled
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deportment. And so by kind of I think we
13:47
felt that it was essential to get rid of the corset for the
13:51
reason of not wanting to bind her.
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But also because conceptually it would have felt really not not
13:58
right to have this, this, this free character shackled in a in
14:02
a piece of bondage. And that's the first thing that
14:06
stops it from feeling like a period drama because the the
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corset is the thing that creates the period silhouette.
14:13
And And then if you have the hair down, long hair down in
14:18
that way, you know, that's the other thing.
14:20
That's the other big rule broken because Victorian women have
14:23
their hair up and I'm sure occasionally they wore it down,
14:26
but it's probably when they were going to bed or you don't see
14:29
many pictures or paintings of women with their hair down
14:32
unless they were like really avant-garde artists.
14:35
Why? For artists or something.
14:38
And and then, of course, I was playing with how Emma Stone and
14:42
I were playing with how these clothes would be put together.
14:44
So she, the idea was that she'd been dressed by her housemaid in
14:48
the morning and a proper sort of lady's bobbys and skirt, but
14:52
that she would have, things would have come off and
14:54
dismantled, you know, quite early into the day.
14:57
So she just often have bare legs and these funny little nick and
15:01
nappy cover things on and and sometimes we get to see her
15:06
underpinnings and then we when she went goes off to Lisbon, she
15:11
no longer had her house made so she had to do it all herself.
15:14
And so I was thinking of young children, you know, maybe 5 year
15:18
old children dressing up in in grown-ups clothes and it's all a
15:23
little bit discordant and ad hoc.
15:26
So I was playing with all of those ideas, and I think that's
15:28
why they feel. I think that's how we created
15:31
this, this particular language of the globes.
15:34
Yeah, it's very fascinating. I was going to bring up the
15:36
course at 2:00, but to that point, I feel like the main
15:38
theme really, with one of the main themes in her costumes is
15:41
just the idea of freedom. It's she's stripping kind of
15:44
throughout the day because she's very toddler, like.
15:46
And also the course that really opens without the course that
15:49
opens her up to a world of new possibility.
15:52
It's very, very intelligent and very fascinating.
15:57
And I also want to talk about the use of colors.
16:01
Her Bella Baxter's color palettes are very feel specific
16:05
and direct. Like you definitely had an idea
16:08
with these specific colors, especially like gold yellows,
16:11
sky, Blues. It feels very optimistic and
16:14
joyful, but then also in ways kind of out of place of what you
16:18
would consider from a Victorian era of film.
16:21
So tell me about the use of color palettes and creating
16:24
Bella's costumes. So when she gets to Lisbon,
16:28
that's when the film, that's when we start to see the world
16:30
in colour. It's as if she's just stepped.
16:32
It's the first time that she's seen the world really as it is
16:34
because before that she's been stuck in the house in this black
16:37
and white world. It's sort of like a beautiful
16:40
prison that she's been kept in. So when she arrives in Lisbon
16:44
you know everything is like a sort of technicolour dream and
16:49
you know the set designers, just these gorgeous colours, these
16:52
beautiful skies. And yeah, I wanted to put her in
16:56
one of these very optimistic dreamy colours and found this
17:00
gorgeous blue fabric and and felt like that.
17:04
Yeah let's let's go for this. And then you know the knickers,
17:07
the the they're very sunny like the yellows change as as as we
17:11
go through the film and they start off being really quite
17:15
just really dreamy and optimistic.
17:19
And I did use a lot of yellows. I really was drawn to yellow for
17:23
her captor because of its association with sun and jolly
17:26
and sunflowers and also with the black hair.
17:30
The the black and yellow are very I think they're just of
17:33
they make a really striking combination and I mean I've said
17:37
this to quite a few people now but I may have said this already
17:40
to you Spencer, but when I was about 9:00, I read years ago I
17:44
read a book about colour and culture and there was a bit that
17:48
I never forget which was all about nature's warning colours
17:51
and it was about how black and yellow are in in nature.
17:55
They're the colours of warning and that's what bees and Wasps
17:58
are, those colours often poisonous frocks are that, those
18:01
colours and it's why in the urban environment we use black
18:04
and yellow to denote warning or caution.
18:07
And I thought it would be quite interesting to use that with
18:10
that black hair. I think as soon as we had that
18:12
black hair, the decision to have that black hair, it gave me the
18:17
option really of using a really sort of rich spectrum of yellows
18:20
that potentially I wouldn't have used otherwise because that's
18:24
yellows. Those sorts of acid strong
18:27
yellows are quite hard colours to pull off if you're you know,
18:30
otherwise I think those that hair allowed me to be very bold
18:35
with the with the use of yellow. Yeah, and it's it's interesting.
18:38
It really gave you a chance to really play with really
18:41
different colours, and in ways the cautionary colours are black
18:44
and yellow. Quite interesting actually.
18:46
I'm going to rewatch the film again and kind of think about
18:49
how that works into our costumes.
18:50
That's really interesting. I'm glad you told me that.
18:54
That colour that I haven't meant that I I only sort of remembered
18:58
this recently, which is that early on in the process of
19:02
working with the Orgas, when we talked about colours, I was
19:06
showing him colours for Bella and he said, oh you're, you're
19:10
talking about the colours of a rotten apple.
19:13
And I went off to my phone and looked at rotten apple Google
19:17
search. And when you look at the colours
19:19
of rotten apples and what comes up as as apples rot, that they
19:24
throw up all a whole spectrum of colours that are both quite
19:28
turgid and as you'd imagine, Browns but also really vivid
19:35
yellows and pinks. And so when I saw that I did, I
19:40
then did this, this huge mood boards that we had in our office
19:44
for a long time. And I really did use a lot of
19:47
those that that they really informed a lot of the colours.
19:49
And I'd only remembered that through having all these
19:51
interviews with people like yourself.
19:53
It came back to me recently. I thought the rotting apple I'm
19:58
going to. Google rotting apples.
19:59
As soon as. We're done.
20:01
The rotting apple is in there. Yeah, well, that's really
20:04
interesting. I'm definitely going to look
20:05
that up. One thing I loved was the use of
20:10
textiles and materials, especially the use of latex.
20:13
I just thought it was so interesting.
20:16
We have that latex coat that she wears when she's in Paris and
20:21
then she wears a yellow. I believe it's a gown.
20:24
I believe in Lisbon that looks like it has latex like trimming
20:28
on edge. I might be wrong about that, but
20:30
I wanted to ask you about the use of Latex and just how
20:33
textiles and materials played a role in your work.
20:37
Well, yeah. I mean I wanted everything to
20:39
feel. I just the the biggest thing
20:42
that I knew from the get go was I wanted everything to be really
20:45
organic and to have a sort of bodily quality to it.
20:49
So to feel very animal, not animal or organic and as if it
20:55
was sort of living and breathing.
20:56
And so a lot of the things that I was looking at with the things
21:00
that, you know, maybe things that live in the sea like sea
21:03
and enemies, urchins, seaweed, think just things that have lots
21:07
of that just have a lot of life to them.
21:11
You know the Victorians, the Victorians Victorian dress had a
21:15
lot of decoration on it, like tons layers of things, feathers
21:20
and jets and beads and loads and loads of stuff.
21:24
Lace is obviously a big a big feature of Victorian dress and I
21:28
felt like these are the things that really trap the period like
21:32
really feel very Victorian and and and heavily load the clothes
21:37
with the sense of being from the from the Victorian age.
21:41
And I thought I think the big design decision or one of them
21:44
was to just get rid of that and not to use those things and to
21:48
replace the texture with textures that we made ourselves
21:52
or textures that we found. So we had this little smoking
21:55
machine that we were using to we had a couple of them actually.
21:59
It was using to sort of smock delicate fabrics up to create
22:03
this kind of frilly, frilly, almost like the texture that you
22:08
see on the lining of the intestine.
22:10
Or if you look at Catalact Tribe, if you go to a butchers
22:12
and see Tribe, it has this kind of frilly quality.
22:15
Or and I was saying like the fabric buyers were going out
22:21
around the fabric shops looking for unruly textures that looked
22:24
a little bit bodily or a bit like skin or, you know,
22:27
everything it's about the latex was all about skin and feeling
22:31
connected to the body in that sense because it has the
22:34
particular sort of texture. But really texture was key.
22:39
And you know, if you think about that that pale blue outfit that
22:42
she wears in Lisbon, that has a kind of spongy quality to it,
22:47
has the the everything, really everything had texture in it.
22:51
Yeah. The the, the thing that you're
22:53
talking about with the yellow plastic trimming, I think there
22:55
was an evening dress that she wears in in Portugal, in Lisbon
22:59
and and the trimming is all in, it is in polyurethane.
23:03
So we people use a lot of latex, but we also use loads of
23:06
polyurethane because it we could frill it and do lots of nice
23:09
things with it that we could add on to the clothes, use it to
23:12
trim the edges of blouses. Yeah, it was so, so cool.
23:16
That's probably my favorite costume.
23:18
But so let's talk about the brothel scenes for a bit.
23:22
As we, you know, we've seen brothels throughout many, many
23:26
shows and films. Just felt like a unique take on
23:29
what you would imagine as like brothel costumes.
23:32
How did you approach those scenes?
23:34
Well, I I wanted to work against all of the things that we
23:40
associate with brothels, really, because I felt like, I feel like
23:46
we we really know the language of sex clothes.
23:49
Like, without even seeking it out, Like if you do a good, if
23:54
you start looking at pictures of Victorian brothels, it's no
23:57
surprise that Victorian prostitutes were wearing long
24:01
stockings, black stockings and corsets.
24:06
And I just feel like that that is what we we we know and see
24:11
and I think I just and also the bloomers and I thought it'd be
24:14
really good to look at something else and because we had made
24:18
this decision not to put Bella in a corset.
24:21
I also thought it would be good not to put these women in
24:24
courses just to get rid of the corset and to have have their
24:28
bodies very natural, you know, not not put into a shape by but,
24:33
you know, by corset, but to reveal the breasts.
24:37
So that was the that's, this is the things that probably nobody
24:40
has noticed. But each of the women in the in
24:43
the brothel had a bodice that had the breasts cut out so that
24:48
they were kind of on display and their waist were just normal.
24:52
You do all of this stuff because you have to.
24:54
You can do all this stuff in such detail and you just think
24:57
nobody need notice. But thankfully people, people
25:00
have noticed. So you know instead of using the
25:04
colours that you know that I would associate with Rothels,
25:09
porn, sex, everything, red and black.
25:14
You know if you think like ants. Like here we have a shop called
25:17
Anne Summers which is like sexy underwear and it's always black
25:20
and red, purple, cherry, these colours.
25:25
So I wanted to I was just actively working against
25:27
everything. I was thinking what will be the
25:30
most unsexy colour imaginable. It would both be like the colour
25:34
of old ladies tights like nylon tights and then that led on to
25:40
Oh well what if everyone is wearing clothes, you know their
25:44
their clothes are all all skin colours, different shades of
25:46
skin. So everything has this then and
25:50
I think what happened was it felt really it just the palette
25:53
actually was very beautiful in that and it felt very sensual.
25:58
And those, I mean they did, those women did look really very
26:01
pleased with them in the end because we they all had latex
26:04
stockings, Some of them had bare legs, some of them didn't want
26:07
to wear latex stockings because they have like a bit of an
26:09
error. So some people can't wear Latex.
26:12
Yeah, some people have an allergy, actually.
26:14
An allergy, Yeah. And then they had OK, they had
26:17
these knickers that we made for them that were like, almost like
26:21
granny parents, like sort of grandmothers, but, you know,
26:26
quite long but with a very deep V at the crotch, with lacing,
26:32
crisscrossing up through the crotch, a bit like those
26:35
Alexander MC. Do you remember those Alexander
26:37
McQueen trousers that he made that got the other one down the
26:40
bottom? And the idea of those was that
26:43
they displayed the pubic hair which again is, is you know in
26:48
our in modern culture we don't want to see pubic hair.
26:52
I wanted to make a feature of the pubic hair.
26:54
I was basically trying to trying to sort of just work actively
26:59
against what we have in our in our culture.
27:02
And I, you know, I think it was quite fun to to to do it that
27:06
way. And we found this fabric which
27:10
was one of the buyers found this fabric which was a wool, like a
27:14
black wool that it had loads of latex poured all over it and it
27:20
had this really interesting texture.
27:22
So we bought the whole load of, we bought whatever they had in
27:25
the shop, 30 meters of it, and it came with us, the Buddha
27:29
person, that's what we've made all of them, costumes, so that
27:32
each of the women had one of these huge jackets with big
27:35
sleeves. Some of them went to the floor
27:38
and some of them stopped at the waist and they exposed the
27:40
breasts and they were all laced up.
27:42
So they used that material. So that's more Latex.
27:45
Right, well, it definitely worked out.
27:48
So Emma, Stone said in the production notes about the
27:51
wedding dress. Which I thought was so sweet.
27:53
It said she said. I almost cried when I put it on.
27:56
It was exquisite, sheer and delicate, but also incredibly
27:59
strong. A bit like how I see the nature
28:02
of sex's vulnerability and confidence blended in tandem.
28:06
That's what the dress symbolize to me.
28:08
It's incredibly impactful statement of a dress, and I
28:11
thought that was so lovely. And also that dress was so cool.
28:16
I was fascinated by the sleeves, like always the white.
28:20
So tell me about what you were, you and your team were thinking
28:23
when you were playing together. That very interesting wedding
28:26
dress. I love that.
28:28
I was really amazed by what she was saying, but then she really,
28:31
really liked it. I can tell when we took it to
28:34
her in the morning, we'd all been up all through the night
28:38
trying to get in. It was quite tricky.
28:40
So the idea of it was that it was so that the band's going
28:48
concentrically horizontally through the dress.
28:51
They they were like this idea of marriage being a cage, like in a
28:56
form of imprisonment or entrapment looks like a cage.
29:00
But I thought it was really important that you could still
29:04
see her body, that she was still visible.
29:07
So it was kind of almost not really there.
29:10
Well, that she was still very present in the dress.
29:14
And then the huge sleeves, I wanted them to feel like
29:17
balloons, like like almost like helium balloons.
29:21
So this dress takes this huge volume.
29:24
It's like a big dress, but it's actually also you could fold it
29:27
down. I think This is why Emma liked
29:30
it so much that I think that she herself really likes to be very
29:34
free in her clothes and as and her character really does that.
29:38
You know that was a feature of Bella Baxter but you know she's
29:42
very free. So I think I think it was both
29:46
like huge and it's like a contradictory dress.
29:50
It's sort of massive and with these huge sculptural sleeves
29:53
but also light as a feather and you could move easily in it and
29:57
feel that. I think she, I think she
29:59
probably felt quite liberated in the dress.
30:02
For me it was all about this metaphor of imprisonment and
30:05
marriage and these men wanting to entrap her.
30:09
And underneath the there are several layers in that dress.
30:13
So we were, we were a bit limited in our choices of things
30:17
that we could make it out of. And I remember George, who I was
30:21
working with, who was we were working together on this.
30:23
And Joe we were, we just had to choose fabrics because it wasn't
30:28
going to happen quickly enough. And I couldn't quite find the
30:31
fabrics that I wanted. And getting things into Hungary
30:35
from the UK was very difficult because of all the Brexit things
30:39
going on. And I think George had found
30:42
this military netting which is, you know, netting for hats and
30:48
it has this, you know, it's like it's, it's like it's like
30:50
chicken wire, it's, it's, it's plastic netting basically.
30:54
And that is what forms the structure of the dress.
30:56
So it's not mineral netting, comes in very thin bowls and so
31:01
we have that sandwich between layers of organza and cotton
31:04
tulle. So you get this build up of
31:06
different grid like fabrics and so you know it's many, it's many
31:13
layers of grid like forms, pushing this idea of cage, but
31:20
it's not a cage at all because it's just like like it's you
31:23
know, she's almost like unimprisonable.
31:26
Right. What I was thinking no.
31:30
You can't keep Bella Baxter down.
31:31
I love that. It's very.
31:33
Interesting. And the veil was but like the
31:34
veil, because I remember sitting there the night before thinking,
31:37
I don't know what to do with this veil because this character
31:40
would not wear a veil. Bales just look, they just look
31:45
really pious and sort of virtuous.
31:48
However, which way you wear them they make you look sacrificial
31:52
or something like that. And and so it was really on the
31:57
morning of the wedding scene, I had this veil.
32:00
And I said, I'm not really quite sure how we should put this on
32:03
your head, but we can just not wear it or we can.
32:07
And she was very keen to just like wrap it around her head.
32:10
Yeah, that's such a cool note. And I think really, really just
32:13
was the right she, she sort of did that in character.
32:16
And I think that was it. It was the only way to wear that
32:19
she wear a veil. Right.
32:21
It it came out. I think it worked out the way
32:23
it's supposed to because it almost feels like like a
32:26
superhero mask, actually. Like she just feels like very
32:29
present. And I love, I love the way you
32:31
use the veil. She was.
32:34
Saying that's a rose for some you know, this is, you know how
32:37
he wore that headband. Yeah, banana.
32:40
It's like a banana, but around her face.
32:42
Well, Speaking of feeling in prison though, when she goes
32:45
back with Alfie Blessington, I thought the costume that she
32:48
wears at the Manor was actually quite odd because it's it's a
32:52
very creepy Manor and it feels very, the orange feels very
32:55
gothic and kind of like not like her in that moment.
32:58
So what was you're thinking when putting her in that manner
33:02
costume? It was like a deep orange.
33:05
Yeah, I mean it's a pretty, it's quite an, it's quite an ugly
33:08
colour combination. And that dress is not supposed
33:11
to be beautiful. So these are the clothes of her
33:13
character prior to being Bella. So it isn't supposed to feel
33:17
like one of Bella's dresses at all.
33:19
It's, it's, it's, it's this. These are the clothes of
33:22
Victoria, who she was before she threw herself off the bridge.
33:27
Right, so it's not her, basically.
33:28
No, no. And it's the same as the dress
33:31
that she throws herself off the bridge in in the first scene,
33:35
that very blue, also very military inspired dress.
33:39
So I was trying to create a couple of dresses that really
33:44
were absolutely at the opposite end of the spectrum to the
33:47
things that Bella wears. So you know they don't have
33:50
these air filled lights sleeves or this air and airy like they
33:54
are sort of heavy and oppressive and the the, the very sort of
34:00
fussy details on them evokes ideas of imprisonment.
34:04
But, but but really sort of you know like the the, the blue
34:08
dress, the sleeves are based on medieval armour or the orange
34:11
dress has all of this military frogging going on the sleeves
34:14
and colours like a sailor colour but they actually look really
34:17
sharp like like she looks like a big massive great big spear.
34:22
And the colours, instead of being light and dreamy and
34:24
optimistic, they're they're like, quite.
34:27
Heavy and not. Really, very nice.
34:33
I was really surprised when my mum, my mum was in the costume
34:37
exhibit and she said this is she from the photo.
34:40
She said that's my favorite costume.
34:43
I just thought it was hilarious because it wasn't supposed to be
34:46
gorgeous. Or yeah, it's supposed.
34:49
To be like oh. Yeah, I mean, on its own it's a
34:52
gorgeous costume. But when you see poor like, you
34:55
know, happy, joyful Bella who just came from her beautiful,
34:59
you know, white angelic wedding, they see her in that costume.
35:02
It's a very hard contrast and you feel sad.
35:05
But on its own, I get, I agree with your mom.
35:07
It is a. Beautiful costume.
35:10
I was very surprised. Well, Holly, I love talking with
35:14
you. And like I said, I love this
35:16
movie. I'm just so happy for you.
35:18
Lots of congratulations to go around.
35:20
What do you hope the audience takes away from poor things as
35:24
they head to the theatres and see your costumes on the screen?
35:28
I mean, I just think it's fantastic that we've got this.
35:32
I just think that you know your boss is a is a true artist and I
35:37
I think it's wonderful that we've got this.
35:40
I mean he is an altar someone who is making work that really
35:44
embraces that is really like I just think he's so unusual and
35:50
he's so left field and he's working with very he's very
35:55
different in the way that he approaches his creative
35:57
collaborators And. And I think it's just fantastic
36:01
that he's made this film And I think the way that he works is
36:04
really brave and bold and I think he takes great risks in
36:09
his work and I think it's absolutely brilliant that that
36:13
he's made this film that sort of seems to be appealing to the
36:16
people really like. And I think more I think more
36:21
really artistic people like yoga should make make films.
36:25
And I think I also think I just hope that people from Bella take
36:30
you know, just in terms of how she dresses.
36:33
You know, she's not at all or she's just doing it her way and
36:38
she's not too bothered really about sartorial rules.
36:42
I don't think we live in an age where anybody is particularly
36:45
bothered. But no, maybe, maybe people are.
36:47
Yeah, I think people should be themselves and wear and and sort
36:50
of dress for themselves and and wear what feels good.
36:54
Right. We should take that and also be
36:56
curious and embrace life and you know, try not to be too jaded by
37:02
by life like better. Oh, what's that costume desire?
37:07
Holly Waddington, thank you so much for joining me.
37:09
I am so happy for you. Such a great film.
37:12
And I just, I can't wait to see all the everyone head to the
37:16
theatres and see poor things and share what their favorite
37:18
costumes and how to connect with Bella.
37:21
It's quite an incredible film. So thank you for talking.
37:23
With me thank. You it's lovely to speak to you
37:25
again, Spence. Thank you for your questions.
37:43
Hi, this is Dan, audio engineer of the podcast here to let you
37:47
know that if you wanted to support the show, you can head
37:51
over to the Art of costume.com/POD store.
37:55
There you can buy some awesome tea, public merch with the
37:59
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38:04
course a baby onesie. Thanks for all your support.
38:29
Spencer That was amazing. I love Holly.
38:34
She is so sweet and I just want to.
38:37
I want to talk to her whenever I can.
38:38
Honestly, she brings me so much joy.
38:41
Absolutely. And, like, I I love, just like,
38:45
the thought she put into it, the little details.
38:47
I don't know, like how I missed all of the latex in this movie.
38:54
Yeah. I I think I was just so
38:56
overwhelmed by how much I liked it that, like, I feel like I
39:01
need to go see this again. But like, as you start talking
39:05
about it, I was like, Oh my gosh, that's like all this just
39:08
beautiful, unconventional detail is incredible.
39:13
Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I've, I've saw this movie once for fun
39:17
and then the second one was like for more detail and also there
39:20
was that exhibition. So I really got to see a lot of
39:23
the costumes up close and personal to see a lot of the
39:26
textiles. But yeah, there's so many like
39:28
hidden like notes and interesting, innovative textiles
39:33
and materials and all the costumes.
39:35
I love the use of color. I'm not a yellow person.
39:38
At all. 'Cause yellow is like my direct
39:41
enemy of being Somebody wears all black, but I love the use of
39:46
yellow and like that, light baby blue too.
39:48
It just works so perfectly. Yes, and it's real.
39:52
It was really that yellow. It was funny earlier when you
39:55
mentioned Crimson Peak, because when I was listening to your
40:02
interview, as soon as she started talking about the yellow
40:04
in danger, I thought of Crimson Peak, the yellow gowns and that.
40:09
Oh. Yeah, the Canaries.
40:11
Yeah. And I was like, Oh my gosh,
40:13
like, this is incredible. It's so it's so amazing.
40:17
But back to the Actually, just remember the latex costume where
40:21
she gets to Paris? It looks like she's wearing like
40:24
a giant condom. That costume, that coat, That's
40:28
a good one. It is so good.
40:33
Especially just cause like she's like for someone who knows
40:37
nothing about life, 'cause she's literally a child.
40:41
Like it's a child's brain in an adult's body.
40:44
Spoiler. If you made it this far, if you.
40:48
Made it this far. I hope you watch the movie, but
40:53
she's so prepared for every situation because of how Doctor
41:00
Godwin, like, raised her, 'cause you have like stupid Duncan
41:05
under the little parasol and she's like, got her raincoat on.
41:09
She was like, what? This is fine.
41:12
Yeah. How'd she pack all those clothes
41:14
in those briefcases or suitcases?
41:17
I don't know, but who cares? Speaking of Duncan, I didn't
41:22
really get to ask Holly about any of the men.
41:24
We only had a limited time, and I realized like halfway through,
41:28
like I'm not gonna be able to get through all my questions.
41:31
So I did what any normal costume design journalist would do and
41:34
just threw out all the men's questions and just focused on
41:37
Bella Baxter for the rest of the time.
41:40
I mean, good call, good call. But the men really were unique
41:47
in this film. It like, it's so cool, 'cause
41:51
she does like so, so Victorian, so 1890s, but not especially for
41:58
the men's. You're like, Oh yeah, this is
42:00
that time period. But something something's
42:02
different. Yeah, something It's definitely
42:05
like Holly's well and Yorgo's Lantha.
42:08
Most like their take on this period.
42:10
It's that's why it's. I've seen a lot of people say,
42:13
like, it's not a period film, but it is because it's
42:16
definitely set in that time and you could see it happening
42:18
around them. But she just gives each of these
42:21
characters such a interesting perspective and it happens
42:24
through the clothing. I love Duncan Wedderburn, played
42:28
by Mark Ruffalo. He's such a fantastic character
42:31
because you hate him, but you also like, love to hate him too.
42:36
He's so. Funny, I never thought Mark
42:39
Ruffalo could ever play a character I hated.
42:44
And now we have Duncan Wedderburn, who is just, like
42:49
the worst of toxic masculinity. Yeah, he's.
42:53
Awful, The embodiment of it. And it was so wonderful.
42:58
It was so wonderful. He brought the scene when
43:01
they're in Paris and he's under the parasol and he's just like
43:03
saying they're freezing in like a full like 3 piece suit.
43:08
It's it's so funny, 'cause he just looks so out of place, but
43:12
it's like probably the only thing he has at this point.
43:15
These are like now his PJS at the same time you know.
43:18
I know, and I love it, 'cause he starts off so, like, so cool, so
43:23
like debonair, like he's he's like, yes, I am sophisticated.
43:27
And then he's like, what? What's happening?
43:30
Yeah, you watch like that Debonair, like sophistication,
43:34
like Unravel throughout the film, which is really fun.
43:37
Then we have Doctor Godwin Baxter and Max Mccandles played
43:40
by Willem Dafoe and Ramy Youssef.
43:43
These are two great characters I love.
43:45
Them. I loved Max.
43:48
I love Ramy Youssef. Keep saying that she like Max I.
43:54
Did I? Did, 'cause like he's all into
43:59
the science, he's all in. But like he does, unlike Dr.
44:04
Baxter, he does understand, like the moral quandary they find
44:09
themselves in. And like is willing to treat
44:12
Fella as an equal, sees her as an equal, and it's just there to
44:18
support his girl at the end of the day.
44:21
Yeah, and I love Doctor Baxter's costumes too.
44:26
He reminds me of, and he's like that, such like a mad
44:30
scientist's look. It's done very effortlessly.
44:33
I would say. I wish I need to go back and
44:35
listen to my first interview of Holly because she talked about
44:38
it. So if you're all listening, you
44:40
have two interviews to kind of go through and get all your
44:43
behind the costume backs. But I just love the use of like,
44:46
color and just like how he's kind of like pieced together a
44:49
little bit. It gives like mad scientist
44:51
qualities without like overly saying it I guess.
44:56
Yeah, absolutely. He's definitely a person who.
44:59
He's not rejecting the style of his time, but he's definitely
45:03
choosing what he wants from it. What he thinks is going to be
45:07
practical and useful to him is what?
45:09
That's a good way. And then we have Alfie
45:13
Blessington at the end, which, I mean, I I did not like this guy.
45:18
He I don't like the way you made me feel.
45:20
I I hated him so much. I was like, excuse me, Sir,
45:28
What? What?
45:30
Yeah, what? He's a bit creepy.
45:34
And actually, I feel like his costume, Yeah, OK, a lot bit
45:38
creepy. And his costume, I feel like
45:42
said a lot of that about him too.
45:45
Like the it's just he's so like unsettling.
45:48
I mean he has like some fur in it.
45:50
It's like big and I think like the big collar kind of like, I
45:54
don't know, it makes him feel very like big and strong but
45:58
scary. And the use of like black and
46:00
red, Black and red is always a scary combination for me.
46:04
Yeah. So the like, you see this guy
46:07
pretty immediately and you're like, uh, oh, like I don't like
46:10
this. I don't like where this is
46:11
going. I also, I loved all his like
46:14
medals on there and it's like, dude, calm down, like why do you
46:18
feel the need to wear these? Just like chilling around your
46:21
house. There's something clearly,
46:24
clearly wrong with you. Yeah, he's very like I and I
46:28
said this in an interview of Holly.
46:30
Like, he brings like a very gothic like moment to the film
46:34
and so on. The costume that Bella wears to
46:39
dinner with him too, it's like that orange.
46:41
It's like all very like kind of gothic.
46:42
And it's it's creepy when you put it against like the
46:45
colorful, bright colors that we're used to throughout the
46:49
film. So that's like 20 minutes of the
46:52
film is unsettling at best. Yeah, yeah.
46:56
But Spencer, this brings us to our favorite game.
47:02
Are you ready? I'm so ready.
47:04
This is the easy one for me. Let's do it.
47:06
Same hit it Daniel. The one costume to rule them
47:13
all. Spencer What was your one
47:19
costume to rule them all? So I really loved the it's it's
47:25
not just yellow, it's like close to gold.
47:27
I would say it's it's between yellow and gold.
47:30
It's almost there. It's this dinner gown that she
47:34
wears kind of early on in her adventure with Mr. Wedderburn.
47:40
Bella backs just like golden, a gown that has what looks like to
47:44
me latex at the bottom. It could be be vinyl as well.
47:49
It might be in a dress. She decides to punch the baby
47:51
and I don't remember it's it's so good.
47:55
The sleeves are like big, but they're they're different
47:58
though. They have like a triangular
48:00
shape to them a little bit, which I just absolutely love.
48:04
I saw this costume in person and I was attached to it
48:08
immediately, like I imprinted on this costume.
48:11
I want this is a top tier one costume.
48:15
Rule them all. Red alert.
48:17
Please, someone keep this at a Museum Forever Smithsonian.
48:22
I love this costume. I think that if I could give
48:27
this a costume a Oscar, I would. It deserves it.
48:30
It's so good. That that really is that that
48:34
gown is spectacular and it is one of the first like really big
48:38
like in your face pieces she wears.
48:42
And it is it's so her. It's so this movie.
48:46
I loved it. And the black hair, by the way,
48:49
which we didn't, we talk too much.
48:51
It really adds to all the costumes too.
48:54
The black hair does something for these costumes and I really
48:57
appreciate it. Absolutely, I agree it it just
49:02
like offsets everything perfectly.
49:05
Yeah, And what's yours, Elizabeth?
49:08
MY1 costume to roll them all was her wedding gown.
49:13
Honestly, I kind of saw this for you.
49:16
Like the moment I saw on screen, I was like, I need this.
49:23
This is incredible. And then listening to her talk
49:26
about it like, it's so Bella. Like it's so Bella.
49:34
It's so her. It's like her.
49:36
I feel like this is really one of the first, like, steps she
49:39
takes that she's like, yes, this is me.
49:41
Like choosing the life that I won without like the pressure of
49:46
the people around her too much. But still, like, she is kind of
49:52
confining herself to this convention and it's just it's
49:56
her, it's of the time, and I just loved it.
50:00
It's beautiful and I love, I mean, the sleeves, I I'm a
50:03
sleeves person. I could talk about these sleeves
50:05
forever, and they're so perfect. They're so perfect.
50:09
Oh my God, the like, I will say. I think the sleeves are really
50:14
what got me. Yeah.
50:16
With this one, they're just it's beautiful, it's perfect.
50:20
It says so much about her and the story that's being told.
50:25
Yeah, I mean, you have the same one costume to rule them all as
50:28
Emma Stone. So I don't know you you might
50:32
win this one. Like I'm on the right track.
50:36
Well, if you all have a different one costume, rule them
50:39
all. Make sure you leave us a
50:40
voicemail at 626-515-1826 or e-mail us at
50:44
theartofcostume@gmail.com. Tell us what what your one
50:48
costume rule Tell us what your one costume rule them all is,
50:53
'cause I'm sure we all have different ones.
50:54
And honestly, we're all correct because they're all just top
50:58
tier costumes. Yes, Spencer, what are we
51:03
watching next week? Elizabeth, next week we are
51:06
going to be watching The Color Purple and I'm so excited
51:09
because we have an interview with costume designer Francine
51:13
Jameson Tanchuk, who did the costumes.
51:16
We brought her up a little bit last year when we had Aggie
51:20
Rodgers on the podcast. And Aggie talked about how one
51:24
of her supervisors back then on The Color Purple in the 80s was
51:28
now designed in costumes for The Color Purple in 2023.
51:31
Which was of course Francine, who is also going to be honored
51:35
with a Career Achievement award at this year's Costume Designer
51:39
Gill Awards. So I'm so excited to have this
51:43
icon herself on the podcast to talk about The Color Purple and
51:47
I hope you all join us because it's it's really a good one.
51:51
I am so excited. I cannot wait.
51:55
If you all are also excited and can't wait, you can get some
51:58
more content from us in the meantime on Instagram at the Art
52:03
of Costume Pod on Tic Tac. Always tic.
52:11
Tac on TikTok at the Arctic Costume.
52:15
If you need a little art of costume or she can head to the
52:19
Art of costume.com/PODstore and if you loved what you heard, we
52:24
would really appreciate it if you could leave us a five star
52:27
text review on Apple Podcast. It really does help.
52:33
It does a lot. A lot.
52:35
A lot. Elizabeth, this has been a fun
52:37
episode. I love poor things and I love
52:40
that you loved it. And I have a feeling we're going
52:42
to be talking about this again pretty soon so.
52:45
For a long time, yeah. New Obsession Alert.
52:49
Thank you all for listening. Hi everyone have a fantastic
52:53
week. The Art of Costume podcast is
53:00
hosted and produced by Elizabeth Joy Glass and Spencer Williams.
53:05
Our audio engineering and editing is done by Dan White.
53:09
Follow us on TikTok at The Art of Costume and Instagram at The
53:15
Art of Costume Pod. If you want to support the show,
53:18
go to theartofcostume.com/POD store.
53:22
For more podcast updates, costume reviews, deep dives and
53:28
interviews, go to theartofcostume.com, A blog
53:32
dedicated to highlighting the best in costume design.