Latest / The You Project / #1573 A Video Game To 'Treat' ADHD - David Gillespie

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#1573 A Video Game To 'Treat' ADHD - David Gillespie · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I get our team, David Gillespie, Tiffany and Cook, Craig,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Anthony Harper, and you the audience, our audience. Let's start
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: with the absent tee who has fucking graciously decided to
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: swander it through the typ door for the first time
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: in forever. Where have you been cooked? Oh?
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: What is this carry on? You're talking about?
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: Now?
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Well, me and gillespa I'm talking about I seem to
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: have had a lot of conversations. I'd say the last
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: three have been me and Dave. So that's six weeks.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: That's six weeks.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry, Sorry, Gillaspo, that long.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: I'll devastate. Well, I don't know whether that's accurate, but
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: it has been a long time. That's right.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: It's not all about you, Tip. I mean he's got needs,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: he's got podcast needs. Sure, he's got a wife in
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: twenty seven kids and nineteen children. But I mean you're
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: his cyber girlfriend. You need to show up every now
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: your's virtual kind of dream.
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: You don't know now that she's here.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Imaginary relationships are my favorite. They are my expertise lo
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: on commitment.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you were telling us before we went live that
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: the last relationship you had was six months long and
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: he didn't know about it.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: I know the relationship wasn't six months long. That was
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: we lived together for six months or maybe a year.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: The relationship was longer than that.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: No, No, the one before that where you said you
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: were in a relationship but he didn't know.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Oh oh, that's most of them. That's most of them
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: pretty quickly if they find out about it.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: That's hilarious. Ah, dear, Hey, how old were you when
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: you got married?
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: Gillespo very young by today's standards. I think I was
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: twenty two, maybe twenty three. That is, that is young.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: That is aby face, not.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: As young as my wife was two years younger than me.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Wow, it still is amazingly, wow, amazingly.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's funny that it's a constant. Did you
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: were you religious or something or you just know what.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Back in the day and you would remember this? Great
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: because I feel we're a similar age. Yes, that back
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: in the day. That's what kids? Did you know? You
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: left home and you got a job and you got married.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true, that's true.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: I engaged you have what age were you engaged?
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Now? That is a very good question. Tiffany and Cook
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: who could imagine me engaged. But yes, I was engaged
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: at I'm going to say twenty one or maybe twenty two,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: I think twenty one.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: And was that unusual?
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: That was even? That was even? I mean, okay, so
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: that was twenty one, twenty one, so that was nineteen
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: eighty four, so that was still a long time ago,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: forty years ago. But yeah, that was That was a
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: little earlier than normal, but it wasn't ridiculous. But I
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: will say the rationale behind that decision was I was
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: in my very churchy phase where everyone I was in
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: a church where every one got married young.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, it wasn't a particular religious thing to me.
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: So we got married in nineteen ninety and it was
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: not an unusual thing for people in the early twenties
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: to be being married.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, yeah, well, and I mean, I know this
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: is not what we're talking about. But by the way,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: didn't that shout out to Janine, my ex fiance, didn't
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: you dodge a bullet? Jeanine? Lucky you ock? Now she's
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: been breathing a sigh of hard sire let for forty
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: years And what was I going to say? Yeah? I
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: think that what's the average age now where people get.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Married, it's well north of thirty three. The last time
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: I looked it was thirty three, but it was going
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: out quickly.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: And didn't you say that the average age that ladies
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: having or giving birth.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: For the first time, isty, it's now into the I
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: think it's around thirty five. Yeah. Wow, which starts to
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: run into a bit of a biological reality, which we
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: can talk about a different show, which is that when
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: you look at the statistics on birth defects, they travel
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: along just fine sort of. I mean, the best time
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: to have a child obviously is when you're fourteen, but
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: the law has something to say about that from a
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: biological perspective. But you know, you're pretty good from a
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: health perspective right up through the twenties early thirties. But
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: the starts to take a nasty turn at about thirty five,
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: so you know, we're starting to run into that being
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: a real problem for a lot of people, whereas before
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: so when I and my better half were married, he
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: was really unusual for people to be having their in
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: their mid thirties. Wow.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: If this is a weird question, and you can feel
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: free to cut this out of the show, because you're
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: the editor. If you could miraculously, if you could miraculously
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: have a healthy kid, like a baby that was yours
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: and some super genetically blessed donor, would you do that?
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: If you could have a kid like because you're forty one?
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: No, No, I've never wanted one. I've never wanted a child.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: But funnily enough, earlier this week I interviewed a girl
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: who runs the Solo Mum Society. So there's a lot
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: of mums getting sperm donors and having children on their
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: own and doing away with that whole concept of prince charming.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah wow, Yeah, well that's probably not a great idea,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: the prince charming idea anyway, is it? Because there aren't
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: too many Dave and yeah David, Dave's married and I've
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: got issues, so fucker now. It's about as prince charming
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: as I can. Jack the ripper I am. But anyway,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: all right, so let's get on to tonight's topic. You
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: sent me an article which I thought was very interesting,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: and it was talking about this idea of a video
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: game form of treatment for adults with ADHD which had
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: just been approved by cleared by whatever we want to
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: call it. The FDA, the US Food and Drug Administration.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Let's unpack that, doctor.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a couple of really interesting aspects of this.
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: I guess the surface level one is that you've got
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: the FDA, who are the people who approved drugs approving
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: a treatment that isn't a drug, it's a video game.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: And that's interesting in itself, and we'll come back to that.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: But have we entered the age of digital drugs where
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: the reality that you and I have been talking about
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: now for years, which is that you don't need to
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: be taking a substance to be an addict, and yet
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: until now almost well all treatments that you're likely to
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: be given by a doctor for addiction or anxiety or
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: depression or ADHD is substance based. So and we've I
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: know we've done episodes before about ADHD, but a little
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: bit of a refresher on what the science says is
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: going on there. I mean, we're in the middle of
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: an ADHD epidemic. There's been reports even today about how
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: one in twenty Australians are affected by ADHD. It's a
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: massively growing diagnosis and the prescription of the only drug
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: treatment for it, which is rittleen or things like it,
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  Speaker 3: which you know, as we've discussed before, is speed. It's
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: an mpetterment and you know, on the street it would
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: be called speed, and but in the pharmacy it's called riddlin.
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: And I want to talk a little bit about why
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: that works. So we know that ridlan does work. It
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: really does work. It works on a very short term basis,
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: in that it only works for about four hours. But
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: let's talk about the definition of works and what's in
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: fact going on with ADHD. So ADHD is an inability
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  Speaker 3: to focus for extended periods of time, so you lose
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: the ability to focus. And you know, you know, psychologists
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: and people who like talking rubbish about mental health conditions.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: He's talking about me.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: Everyone. Yep, we'll say things like, oh, well, that's caused
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: by you know, that's this modern media environment where you know,
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: news is presented in three second clips and if there's
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: not a visual with it, it's not news. And and you know,
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  Speaker 3: no wonder, everyone's got a short attention span EO and
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: everyone's got ADHD. So that's the narrative answer to that.
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  Speaker 3: But thankfully there's a biochemical answer as well, which is
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: significantly more convincing, which is that what ADHD probably is
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: is in fact dopamine resistance, and I need to explain
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: that a little bit. So what happens is that when
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: you're exposed to an extremely stressful environment, you have a
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: system of adapting to that in your brain, which increases
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  Speaker 3: your resistance to the dopamine input that you're going to
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: be getting from those stresses. So every time you're exposed
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: to anything that stresses you, you'll get a shot of
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: dopamine every time that happens. If it starts happening really,
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  Speaker 3: really frequently, then you become resistant to the dopamine so
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  Speaker 3: that you don't overreact to an environment where there's a
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: lot of stress. And we've talked about this before. If
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: you're in a war zone, you don't want to be
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: jumping out of your skin every time you hear an explosion.
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  Speaker 3: You just want to be jumping out of your skin
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  Speaker 3: when you hear the ones that are likely to hurt you.
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  Speaker 3: So that's the way the brain's way of filtering out
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  Speaker 3: the background noise of danger, and the same thing happens
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  Speaker 3: on the reward side of the brain with exactly the
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: same mechanism. So whenever we do something that gives us pleasure,
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  Speaker 3: we also get a hit of dopamine, and the brain
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  Speaker 3: adjusts that if we're getting them frequently. So for an
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: environment where there's a lot of pleasurable things going on,
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: where there's plenty of food to eat, where there's plenty
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: of sex to have, where's all that sort of thing,
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  Speaker 3: then our brain starts moderating that and making us resistant
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  Speaker 3: to those dopamine things so that we don't overreact, so
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  Speaker 3: that we don't chase every possible pleasure, we only chase
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  Speaker 3: the really good ones. And we call la state of
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  Speaker 3: the brain addiction. The trouble is that the thing that
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: sets the resistance point, the thing that says how much
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  Speaker 3: dopamine we need, stays high for three months from when
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: the last dopamine hit occurred. And if it's sitting there
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: too high, there's a number of consequences for our brain.
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  Speaker 3: But one of them is that our brain thinks it
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: needs more doper mean to focus than it actually does.
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  Speaker 3: So because we're dopamine resistant, we need a lot of
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: dopamine to remain focused. But the brain says no, no, no,
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  Speaker 3: we're not getting enough no dope mean, and we can't focus.
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: And what I've just described. There is ADHD, which is
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: an inability to focus. Now in boys, that usually manifests
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: as physical activity, which is what it used to be
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: called hyperactivity. It used to be called, you know, hyperactivity
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: syndrome or something like that, and in girls it's often
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: character it often looks more like daydreaming. So they're not
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: they're not running around or hitting people. They're just spacing
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: out because they're unable to focus in, you know, on
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: some things, so they're just jumping from thought to thought
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: to thought without actually doing anything. The boys are doing
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: the same thing, but they're also manifesting a physical activity.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: So that's what ADHD is, and that leads you to
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: the obvious treatment to it, which is, well, why don't
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: you just give them a dopening hit. I mean, if
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: the brain is saying we don't have enough dopamine to focus,
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: then give them some dopamine. And so some very smart
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: fellow almost by accident in the nineteen forties, came across
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: the fact that soldiers were given amphetamines to focus, and
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: so they thought, why don't we try this on kids
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: who've got this condition? And if you go, they did
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: that and it was like magic. They had kids sitting
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: in classrooms who couldn't focus for the life of them,
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: couldn't do anything, couldn't achieve anything because of their ADHD.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: They gave them some amphetamine and bang, they're just back
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: to normal, instantly, perfectly perfect cure. The problem was, it
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: only us as long as the emphetamine stays in their system,
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: which is about four hours, So they're perfectly cured for
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: four hours and then they're back to the way they were.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: And so the people when they first noticed this said, Okay, well,
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: this will help for a kid who really needs to
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: learn something and needs to focus on something, needs to
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: get something done in school. But this isn't a cure.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: In fact, it's the opposite of a cure, because what
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: we're actually doing is ramping up their dopamine resistance every
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: time we do this, because we are actually giving them
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: a hit of dopamine which increases their dopminions. Is so
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: long term it's a bad idea because we're actually making
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: the problem worse. But in the short term it's a
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: terrific idea because it makes the kid controllable, it makes
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: them focused, It may improve their cognitive performance, their thinking skills,
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: their ability to focus, the ability to get things done.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: So initially, when it was discovered in the nineteen forties,
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: the doctors who discovered it said, yeah, okay, it works great,
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: but we don't really want to be giving this to kids.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: Let's come up with a different solution. And for many,
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: many years they did use a different solution, which was
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: to just take the dopamine producing things out of their lives.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: So what they did was they sent these kids off
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: to farm type schools and things like that. Well, this
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: was no stimulation other than you know, you go and
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: you play in the outdoors and so on. And what
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: they're effectively doing was giving them three months of rehab,
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: getting them away from the dopamine stimulus, getting them away
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: from the stresses and so on, and those kids were
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: returning to normal that way. It took longer, but ultimately
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: was a longer term cure too. Okay, roundabout way of
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: talking about this press release, which is some smart character
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: in this company, this is a startup company that has
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: done this thing, has said, well, look, if you can
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: give a kid a dopamine hit with speed, just do
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: it the way every kid's doing it now, which is
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: with gaming. So there you go, instant instant drug that shit.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: If all of everything I just said is true, if
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: all of that is true, then anything that produces a
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: dopamine hit should have the same effect and should give
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: benefits to a kid on ADHD, at least immediate benefits.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: And so these people have said, well, hey, why produce
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: a drug, Why get into the business of selling amphetamines.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: Why not just do what the gaming industry already does,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: which is provide artificial stimulation of dopamines. Now, they could
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: have done this with gambling, they could have done it
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: with social media. They've chosen gaming, and they've done some
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: really high faluting studies which you can read if you
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: feel like it. There are links in that press release
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: I sent you where you can track through it actually
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: see the study they did. What they've done is Inventor game, which,
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: by the way, you can download There's a link in
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: that press release and you can probably follow that through.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: You can download it this thing. It works from the
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: app store on Google and all that sort of thing.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: And you'll look at it and you'll say to yourself, well,
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: this is just a game. This is a game just
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: like any other game that I could play. You know,
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: first person, you know you're going through a maze type thing,
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: dodging things and all that sort of thing. It's designed
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: to be addictive. It's designed to produce a dope mean hit.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: And by the way, before you rush out and get it,
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: kids itself administering this cure all the time. So kids
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: are doing this all day, every day. They're giving themselves
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: their own dopa mean hits. They don't have to go
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: out and buy riddle and to do it. They can
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: do it on a game. And they will all tell you,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: just like a smoker will tell you or a drinker
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: will tell you, that this is stress relieving behavior and
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: they feel better when they do it. And the other
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: thing that they might not have measured, but these folks,
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: because it's their business, have actually measured is they think
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: better when they do it too. And you might say, okay, well,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: before we start rushing off and signing up, you know
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: our kids would just be playing games all day long
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: to cure their ADHD. You've got to remember the downside
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: and the reason why the folks who initially discovered riddlin
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: didn't keep doing it, because ultimately what you're doing is
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: making the problem worse. And so the bizarre thing is
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: where now in an age of what I call digital drugging,
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: where now suddenly the cure of ADHD is going to
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: be anything that stimulates dopamine. And whilst that might be
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: a bit of a danger to the folks who manufacture
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: facture Riddlin, it's an even bigger danger to the rest
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: of us, because now we're actually saying the cure to
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: ADHD is to make people even more dopamine resistant. And
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: you might tell you what's the downside to that, You know,
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: why is that a problem? Well, the problem is that
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: in creating addicts, the other things that happen are really
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: really bad consequences for the individual and society because the
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: brain in that state of dopamine resistance is a brain
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: that's highly anxious, highly depressed, and on its way to
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: psychosis and schizophrenia.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: And also, imagine if you remove that drug in inverted commas,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: that electronic drug, then they're going to if all of
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: a sudden you say no, you can't play this game.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: Now you've got someone in with rural. Now you've got
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: somebody who's you know, in chaos and who's.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: And anyone who's ever had anything to do with a
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: fourteen year old kid who's gaming and then suddenly says
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: to them, you're not going to be doing that anymore,
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: that they'll be able to relate to you that that's
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: not one of the most pleasant experiences of.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Their lives and with you like, it's funny that the
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: FDA literally Food and Drug Administration, that's who that that
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: was the go to organization to clear this.
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: Te and it's been cleared as a drug. Effectively, it's
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: it's something administered as a treatment for attention deficit disorder,
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: so you know, it's got a proper drug type name
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: a K L to T zero one. And you know,
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: the game itself sounds like a drug. Actually it's If
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: you go and download the game, it's a what is
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: it endeavor OTC is the name of the game, and
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: you download it and it looks like something like Fortnite
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: or something. It's it's just a game. But when you
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: read the studies on it, you know, they say, oh
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: that you know this is this is this might look
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: like a game, but what it's actually doing is stimulating
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: you know, the prefrontal cortex of the which is another
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: way of saying that actually it's built on a selective
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: stimulus management and engine, which is the core technology designed
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: to stimulate and activate the fronto parental net varietal network. So,
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: in other words, a dictive.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: I feel like there's a complete blurring of the lines
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: here with like calling that a drug. Obviously it's not
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: a drug, but also.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: It's a digital drug.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Well if now the drugs aren't digital, so it's not
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: a drug.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: But kind of we're getting into the realm here where
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: not a drug?
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: No, No, let's talk about a drug, not a drug.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Evaping is still doing something physiologically, well physically, well, yes,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: it's got a finger, it's got a.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: Crooked little there's a question from Tiff.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Everyone's back down the hatches.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Everybody, boys, sit down? What is it? If it is
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: between kids just scrolling on social media every day, why
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: is that not a drug? And what that's not helping ADHD?
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: So why is this game helping or is it just
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: another pack of people making up rubbish and making money
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: off it.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: No, it does help, and the scrolling on social media
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: helps too, because while the kids are actually doing it,
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: they will tell you I feel better when I'm doing that.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: It's when they get off it that they say I
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: am in withdrawal from it.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Well, he's not saying if he's not saying that it
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: helps over the long term, it definitely doesn't help. It's
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: actually a problem.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: But the reason it's help, saying is is because they
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: don't have to get anything done. How does this help
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: them focus on what they need to focus on and
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: actually get a result?
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: It does, while they could they could have done the
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: same research with Fortnite and got the same outcome. They
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: then called that an electronic intervention for treating bloody ADHD
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: as well just give it a.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: Bottle of the well that would work too. Yep, Well,
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: look we're giving them speed at the moment, so you know,
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: in essence, what's the difference. It's it's interesting in a
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: way that this is a sort of an admission that
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: that's what they're treating and how they're treating it. So
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: by giving them a game that stimulates dopamine in exactly
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: the same way as a drug does, they're saying, well,
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: the dopamine stimulation is the important part of addiction, and
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: we're being distracted by the substance type associations with it.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: So if you think Craig about smoking and vaping, now
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: the problem with smoking, people say, well, you shouldn't smoke.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: They don't say you shouldn't smoke because it's addictive, although
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: they kind of do. But it's the reason people shouldn't
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: smoke is because of all the damage that is done
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: by the side effects of the substance. So it gives
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: you lung cancer, it gives your heart disease, you know,
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: it wrecks your breath, you know all those great things
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: about it. And often the argument for vaping is it
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: doesn't do any of those things. It just delivers the nicotine,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: which is the addictive, but it doesn't cure the addiction
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: at all, but it gets rid of all those other
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: things which are associated with the substance itself. And then
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: there's this sort of assumption, well, are we suggesting then
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: that the addiction, the pure addiction, the nicotine, doesn't damage you.
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: The answer is it does. And in a way, this
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: is kind of the same thing, because there are lots
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: of substance type side effects from giving people speed, but
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: this is a cleaner way of doing it innocence in
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: that you're giving them the dopamine hit without the substance
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: side effects. So in a way they're saying, well, isn't
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: it better to be just a pure addict to the
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: dopamine rather than the substance that's delivering the dopamine hit.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: I wonder if we I mean, you know how with
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: all medications, when you get it, it comes with a
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: basically a leaflet that tells you about the potential you know,
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: the more likely and less likely side effects. I mean,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: there are still side effects of this, So there are still.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Negative a big there are big side effects. But going
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: back to TIFF's point about why don't you just give
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: them a bottle of vodka, Well, because there are side
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: effects from drinking vodka that have nothing to do with
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: the addiction. So, you know, you get drunk, you'll fall down,
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: you'll have car accidents, all of those sorts of things
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: that have nothing to do with being an addict. The
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: side effects. Yeah, so are we back to tests love life?
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Are we We're back to TIFFs Saturdays?
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: Anyway? But people almost say by focusing on the side effects,
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: are ignoring the primary problem, which is that when you
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: addict the human brain, when you put it in that
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: state of dopamine resistance, you are making it significantly more anxious,
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: significantly more depressed, more likely to be prior to suicide,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: more likely to end up in a psychotic state and
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: ultimately schizophrenic. So we are in the middle of a
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: massive wave of increases in anxiety, depression, suicide, psychosis, schizophrenia
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: in our society because we've suddenly given access, and I
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: mean suddenly in the last ten years, access to highly
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: addictive things to every teenager, which is the prime age
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: for addiction. So it's not cleaner in that sense. It's
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: cleaner in the sense that they're not consuming substances, but
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: it isn't cleaner in the real consequence of addiction is
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: not the side effects from the substances. It's the anxiety, depression, suicide, schizophrenia,
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: psychosis that's the problem. And the ADHD. Obviously it's I
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: like how.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: When I say like, I've put an asterisk next to that.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: I like how they've video game treatment for adults with ADHD.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: And I listened to this everyone, how they've written this,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: You'd think this was the best thing. Ever, the FDA
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: recently cleared the Digital Therapeutic Endeavor OTC in brackets aklto
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: one and over the counter treatment for adults with a
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: tension deficit hyperactivity disorder. It through a video game experience
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: sounds wonderful. Ak LT one is indicated for adults with
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: primary inattentive or combined type ADHD who've demonstrated attention issues.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: The studies supported ak l TO one's clearance showed an
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: improvement in focus of eighty three percent in two hundred
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: and twenty one participants with a verified diagnosis of blah
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: blah blah, seventy two point five reported and improvement in
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: quality of life and forty five point absent met a
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: pre specified threshold for clinically meaningful improvement. You'd think that
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: it was a fucking wonder drug, David. It is like,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: this is so positive, this article.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but if your metrics are those which is does
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: this thing improve focus? They're the same metrics that are
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: being used for ridlin, and the answer is yes, it
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: does improve focus. There's an asterisk after that, as there
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: is after this, which is, oh, by the way, it
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: wrecks you long term. But if your measure is does
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: this improve focus in the two to three hours after
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: it's consumed, the answer is it definitely does the problem
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: is that people are self administering drugs like this all day,
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: every day as we speak, and it's not curing anything.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: So I mean, it just goes to show you that
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: people can be honest. I'm using an asterisk again, but
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: still deceptive, misleading, an unethical, because what they're saying here
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: is true, but it's what they're not saying that we
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: really need to know.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: Well, they're putting that in the in the basket of
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: not my problem.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: What I've done here is I've delivered something that gives
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: at least as good a result as giving someone a drug.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: So give them this instead.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: And how do they make dough? Do we have to
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: buy this? I guess so despite the thing.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, So like those games, there's a free version,
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: and then there's a version that removes the you know,
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: I haven't actually played this one, so I don't know.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: I've just looked through the videos and the screenshots of it.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: So I'll bet there's a mechanism in there somewhere where
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: if you want the good stuff, you you have to
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: pay for it.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: And I'm sure if you're a child, not an adult,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: apparently it's for adults, I'm sure you.
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: Have a child version. They have a child version as well.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: If I can see her, she's she's what are you doing?
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I can see you send me the bloody link.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Oh, I'll put it in the chat. Here we go. Hang.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: Oh god, it's terrific podcasting listeners.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: I'll make sure you've got the link in the show
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: notes too.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: You can be playing it while you're listening to this
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: and think bang on about.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: Alkali A K I L I interactive all one word
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: dot com forward slash.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: So the first one at the top of that page
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: if the endeavor O t C dot com, I think,
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: is where you get the download links.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, I'm clicking on that now as well,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: which is also terrible podcasting. There it is introducing in
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: dev OHTC, a game based treatment clinically proven to improve
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: attention and focus, specifically in adults with a d HD
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: except all cookies. That's you TIF You're a cookie?
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: Are you?
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Are you? Are you cookie? Except except the cookies?
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: And I click on the click on the visit The
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: big blue button says a visit endeavor OTC dot com.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Oh, there we are. I'm clicking on that as well.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: This is who carest the cookies.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: Again, They're going to be editing. There's going to be
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: some editing involved.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: No, no, just leave this bit in fuck it. Leave
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: this tap into your potential. Oh god, they're marketing like
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: fucking champs, aren't they. It's all very attractive too.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: I just don't understand how playing a video game is
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: going to improve focus in other areas of your bloody life.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: I can sit and scroll on social media for nineteen
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: minutes in bed in the morning. Doesn't make me get
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: up and do what I want to be focusing on.
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: Well, you don't know what it to be like if
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: you didn't do that.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you might just lie around in bed all day
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: like a bloody do gong, like a bloody land based
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: do God. All right, well we might pull.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: Up in their quality episode.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what people are like, Oh my god,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: what is going on? Doctor Gillespie? Not really doctor, but
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: you're a doctor to me, doctor doctor. Thanks mate, We
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: appreciate you.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: Tip.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: Are you going to put the links and stuff in
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: for people? Yeah?
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: I will, I will. I don't want to. I don't
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: want to be promoting it, but we'll have a sticky
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: beak people.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, people want to have a look, they can.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're not. We're not opening the addiction door at all.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: Or I made thank you than anyone else.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: It