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Boundaries at Work · In The Business of Humans

• CX Joe: What do you get when you take a former manager plus report combo who are now real life friends, one a management coach and sudden viral internet star who shoots from the hip and the other a CX exec turned advisor who overthinks everything? This podcast, welcome to the business of humans. I'm Joe, founder of CX Joe advisory and the overthinker. My partner in crime is Lynda She's the founder of leveled up leadership and the internet star. Join us as we talk about business, relationships, humanity, success, and also failure through the lens of friendship, heaps of radical transparency and honesty, and Zero BS. Let's get started with today's episode. Lynda Harvey: Hi Joe. CX Joe: Hello, Lynda, how are doing today? I'm doing great. I'm eager to ask you about something because this is very typical for us that, you know, we were kind of mid conversation ⁓ as we pressed record. And I hope I'm not going to embarrass you terribly, but we were just talking about your ⁓ skills and future aspirations around public speaking, corporate public. You're like. Lynda Harvey: I'm well, how are you? Good. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. CX Joe: You're like the anti-corporate, corporate speaker because you're so opposed to corporate talk and you do shoot from the hip, as I just said in the show's intro, which I read live every time. It's so much fun. ⁓ So you're kind of like the anti-corporate, but then I think like your secret tricking us like usual is that that, I think that sort of approach, I was just thinking about some of the ⁓ big like CX and other conferences I've been to. Lynda Harvey: I love that. CX Joe: And I actually think that sort of voice is needed at some of these events. And that's a little bit of a plug, but it's sincere and you're my friend, so whatever. So I'm plugging a little bit. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So I just recently opened up my calendar to book ⁓ speaking gigs. So I'm super excited about that next adventure. And I do think that the thing that we're missing, we've become so accustomed to hearing the corporate jargon, the corporate buzzwords. And I think that sometimes I've attended these conferences as well. CX Joe: Nice. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And I leave almost feeling a little defeated because it's, it feels so big, but it also feels like, is anybody speaking my language? Are there real humans who are out there having the conversation? And I do think it's really important. And again, that's why I really started all of my platforms was to let people feel seen, but also like learn how to navigate these things because we have to. CX Joe: Mm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: We have to change it from the inside out. Like we really, really do. We have to figure out like when I talk to managers, it's about like, how can we learn how to be better for our people or show up in a way? ⁓ and so funny, we were also just talking about this as well. Like how are we cultivating our talent? ⁓ but also to the employees, like how do we navigate these, these scenarios and how do we protect ourselves and how do we create an environment where CX Joe: Mm hmm. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: we feel safe or we feel seen or we feel valued. And, you know, I think it's really, really important. So yeah, I opened up my public, my speaking calendar and I'm hoping to get, so if there's anybody out here who's listening, who is a corporate event sponsor or a book or whatever you're called, an event planner, I would love to come speak at your event and help your people feel seen and feel heard and hopefully give them some strategies that are. CX Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: actual tactical things they can do. CX Joe: I love that. And I like with all sincerity, if I knew which conference you were speaking at, I would I would book my plane ticket that day. I think it would be awesome. And, you know, it's interesting, because as I was listening, and I was picturing, I was picturing who'd want to book you, Lynda, and ⁓ I'll let you inside of my brain, because it was like one of those many obvious epiphanies throughout my day. At first, I was like, okay, everyone in the audience who's Lynda Harvey: Thank you. Thank you. CX Joe: like anywhere from frontline to new manager to even like manager, director, whomever are just so sweet spot, you know, to be in that audience. And then was thinking, you know, with the whatever company's hosting it or like the C suite that's kind of like setting the agenda, would they be a little bit iffy on this being the subject matter in a way? Like, is it more for the other audience? And then I thought about one of the books I'm reading, which I have right here pretty coincidentally. And also I figured I might want to. mention at some point in the pod, but it's called No Rules Rules, Netflix and the Culture of Reinvention. I'm a fairly new career friend, a wonderful CX leader named Jenna over at Garoons recommended it to me. So shout out to her. And in a way, like the whole book would sort of be written to combat that initial thought that I had. It's really, it's really takes evolved senior leaders, you know, to lean in. and understand that empowered, like an empowered workforce is going to be best for them and for their business, which is definitely a lot of what that book is about is kind of like a radical level of communications and transparency and inspiring fields of feelings of ownership and every level of employee and just all of the ways that that actually, you know, does benefit the company, even if a less evolved leader or like at, at, you know, the first glimpse of face value, could seem counter to that, right? Lynda Harvey: Yeah, I love that. I also think from a senior leader perspective, right? So, you know, you and I have both been senior leaders. You definitely more senior than me, but we've both been in those moments or in those rooms. And we have had these moments maybe with past employees or a bold current employee who is willing to say, hey, like, I want you to know the way that I felt when you said this thing or you did this thing. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And I know for me, was like, holy moly, really? I didn't understand that I had that effect. And so I think if you can have these senior leaders who are listening with their listening ears, right, they can come in and go, ⁓ is that somebody else's experience? Because the farther you get, like the higher you get in your career, the easier it is to disassociate with your humble roots. And both of us have both of us have got very humble roots in the sense of like CX Joe: Yeah. Right. Lynda Harvey: We both started out on the phones. We didn't get our jobs through school connections or family connections. I've definitely gotten a couple jobs where it was just because I'm a pretty good interview. But we started at the beginning. But the thing is, you do lose that connection. CX Joe: ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Lynda Harvey: Like, and it's not a loss. It's really just more like you romanticize it. Like you think, ⁓ the good old days when all I had to do was answer a phone. Right. ⁓ And so we do have, we bring that perspective, but I do think that it's these moments where you get grounded, where somebody comes in and says like, no, this is actually how I feel. Or this is my reality. I mean, I think undercover boss is probably the very best. ⁓ CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: real life like demonstration. don't even know if that show's still on, but you know, when the boss will be like, I didn't know that my employees couldn't buy groceries because I don't pay enough or I didn't realize that they were treated this way. So I think having a C-suite in the room or even when I coach C-suite individuals, it's like, do you even understand like the situation that these employees are in or how they're feeling? So I think that it would be applicable for all. CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Great. Right. I do too. And I think that I hope something that you bake into your offerings if companies are open to it. It's the training and empowerment of the folks who'd be sharing the feedback, but it's also ⁓ training and open discussion with the leaders who'd be receiving the feedback. And again, this is a big thing, excuse me, covered in the book I just mentioned, is kind of looking at one scenario which is the way not to operate but honestly is way more common. So it would be someone in the room and again they could be front lines they could even be like a manager or director they're just not the person maybe leading the global all hands or on stage at the quarterly meeting or whatever which is more like c-suite or the founder whomever. ⁓ And the sort of bad but very common scenario is things are happening up on stage or from senior leadership, they don't feel good. They're not being received well by the room. Um, but nobody says anything. And so then, you know, the, the room, the team is basically stewing and turning things over. Respect is lost. Trust is lost. Then one day that manager or individual contributor gets a LinkedIn message or a call from a recruiter who offers, know, a few more thousand dollars. And they're like, great, I'm disgruntled anyway. And the way that, you know, Lynda Harvey: Yep. CX Joe: Netflix and this book was written a long time ago. hope they're still adhering to all these norms, but where they tried to flip that as to where it's a culture of first of all, sharing feedback, either real time or at the latest, like same day, next day, you know, send an email, pop by someone's desk, schedule a five minute zoom or call or whatever, just share the feedback. Like, Hey, I think you're signaling things or things you were saying or signaling weren't really rubbing me the right way. and then trying to relate it to why it's actually not good for the company. You maybe other people felt the way that I did and I felt disempowered. ⁓ Then when recruiter calls come in and they offer more money, Netflix and companies under this philosophy actually try to really normalize that conversation and say, hey, bring that information to us too. Like if you're underpaid in the market, let us know. Maybe we could, maybe we could raise you up. ⁓ There's really interesting, I think about like a whole 180 and the normal kind of paradigm. But again, back to my first point here is that senior leaders actually receiving the feedback well, I think is very critical and is one of those moments reading for me where I had to just be honest with myself that especially earlier in my career and to an extent to this day, that's something that senior leaders really have to strive for also is making sure not to come across as defensive in those moments and not welcoming of that feedback. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, yeah. And I think, I mean, just from a tactical perspective, I think so often when I, and I tell, you know, my clients this, and when I actually, when I train managers on this as well, like when it comes to receiving feedback, when you get that feedback, the first thing that you want to do is you want to justify your actions, right? You want to be like, or you look at it you're like, yeah, but you don't understand the big picture. You don't see, you know, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: These were two tough choices that I had to make, or this is where we're at as a business. But all that does, you're not taking a minute to educate the person in the moment. All that does is it shuts down the feedback. So then the employee doesn't hear like, ⁓ but let me see the big picture. The employee is sitting with nerves. The employee is like, how do I share this feedback? They share the feedback. And then the first thing that they're told is, well, but you're wrong. CX Joe: Mm-hmm, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: You don't have the whole picture, right? So when I train my managers and when I train my clients, I'm like, shut up. Don't say anything. Just say, hey, I appreciate the feedback. I know how difficult that must have been for you to come provide that feedback. I appreciate it. Wait two days. Wait a day. You know, think of it like your first date text, like wait three days. Is that still the standard? I don't know if that's still the standard, but like. CX Joe: Hehehehe... Mmm... Hmm. I have no idea. Lynda Harvey: wait and then come back and say, I really appreciate the feedback. Again, thank you so much. I do wanted to make sure that you had a little extra context, right? Or you know what? I hear what you're saying. We could have absolutely executed that differently. I do want to give you a little bit more information so you see the big picture. And when I get on stage, I actually talk about perspective a lot and talk about how each CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: Each person in the organization has got a different perspective and each person think of like you see a fire, right? Each person in the org sees that fire is very different and different threat levels. And so, you know, it's okay to give people additional perspective. Just don't do it when they're feeling brave enough to give you feedback because that's, that's shitty. CX Joe: Mm. Mm. That's a great point. And if you wait for a day or two later, I could see as a leader, I'd also push myself to think about how the feedback might be actions. And that way you could couple some of the additional context by really re-emphasizing. again, just so appreciated. Thank you for the courage to share that. And here's how we're going to action it. Lynda Harvey: Yes. Yep. CX Joe: I like that. All right, so these are, this is just a small taste of all the gems. All the gems people could get with Bite Booking Lynda. That's right. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, of all the, this isn't even the topic. ⁓ But do you want to do the plug, Jo? Do you want to tell the people the things? CX Joe: ⁓ yeah, yeah, absolutely. Sure. So we definitely want to mention to everyone. So we've been tracking and, you know, we hear from friends and family and also just seeing online are getting a little momentum, you know, and people listening to the pod, which makes us so excited. It's really fulfilling for us. And we just want to emphasize if folks are up for clicking to follow pod, you'll get notified when each new episode comes out and also rate us, give us a rating, give us a thumbs up like. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: We appreciate it and share it with a few friends while you're at it. Mm-hmm. Yes. Lynda Harvey: speaking of feedback, right? And we will take all the feedback and we won't even like push back. We will just accept the feedback with grace, with grace and kindness. ⁓ CX Joe: Goodness knows I give myself enough critical feedback as it is. It would just be nice to mix it up and have it come from someone else. Lynda Harvey: Right? ⁓ Amazing. Well, so today's topic, I'm actually I'm really excited about today's topic. And also I have a little bit of nerves about today's topic because I do think that you and I are going to see things differently, ⁓ which I'm excited about. And I think that we will have a really kind of healthy conversation and hopefully touch on the opinions of CX Joe: That's great. Lynda Harvey: more than one user, more than one listener. ⁓ So we're going to talk about boundaries today. And I will tell you that I'm excited to talk about this because it's probably the number one thing I talk about with my clients. ⁓ CX Joe: I loved when you said that by the way, and I want to do a lot more listening upfront, but I just want to let you know that that was one of the things that made me most excited. ⁓ cause we talk about our topics and just, you know, get a sense from each other, whichever of us mentioned together kind of gets a sense of, of why, why it was added. I think that was the first thing you mentioned to me when we talked about this topic is like, this is actually at the top of the list of topics that are just organically brought to you by people, by workers. And I was like, all right, sold. That's amazing. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, this is definitely the number one thing that I talk about is because because let's be honest, like boundaries sounds scary. It sounds scary when we're like we're boundaries. It sounds kind of harsh, too, right? You know, because you think about when you were in school and they're like, don't go out of bounds or when you play sports. Apparently, that's a thing. I don't play sports. CX Joe: also find it scary because my first thought is if I set boundaries in the workplace, ⁓ that could be bad for me. know, like setting boundaries seems scary because you just picture losing standing or losing your job, basically. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah, or that you won't be respected or that ⁓ people will see you as a negative. Like because you have boundaries, people will see that you're not a team player or that you're not these things. And so I think, yeah, yeah. And when you're ambitious and you want to grow in your career, you think like, well, if I set boundaries, if I say no, then people are going to think, you know, CX Joe: Yeah. Right, they won't come to you as much. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: that I'm difficult to work with, or people are not going to bring me these opportunities that are going to allow me to shine, right? And I think we should challenge that way of thinking ⁓ and really kind of talk about that. we're going to talk about tactical. I I think the whole point of this pod is we talk about the things that we're seeing at work, but hopefully we're giving you some solutions on CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: how to execute, right? That feels normal and natural to you. CX Joe: Yeah. Yeah, I can't wait. I think we should jump right into it. I also can't wait to see what we're going to disagree about because I know that you know, you know, because you always know, but I don't know yet. So that's why I'm extra excited to get into it. Lynda Harvey: Yeah Yep. Yeah. So, okay, we are going to start with what I think. one of the things, the thing that happens a lot with my clients is they come in and they tell me kind of what's going on at work and how they're doing all of the things and whatnot. And, you know, I'll say, it's probably time for you to set some boundaries. And then it was literally just talking to somebody about this. And she's like, well, then they're going to wonder why I changed. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm. Lynda Harvey: They're going to say like, well, this is new. This is new behavior. Why are you, why is this changing for you? And first and foremost, you never have to justify, don't, you don't have to explain yourself. You don't, this, this is work, right? You don't have to go in and be like, well, you know, I was feeling really downtrodden or I was feeling like really burnt out or was feeling these things. It's, know, I've just decided to make a couple changes. I've just decided to make, you know, these things you don't have to give any more than that. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And if people continue to press, it's because they're trying, they're digging. There's a, there's an ulterior motive, right? No, I assure you I'm fine. And I'm just making some changes. ⁓ but it is really hard and it's really scary. And I don't know if I said this last week, but if you don't start small, you don't start at all. That's, that's a new Lynda ism that I'm going to coin, but truthfully, that's what it is. So it's all about making subtle shifts. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yep. Thank Lynda Harvey: to protect your time, protect who you are, but also like this is how you help yourself avoid burnout. So, and this is where I think we're actually gonna get the most controversial, Joe, is I think the easiest shift to make and one that requires very little explanation is making your calendar private. CX Joe: Wow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: ⁓ And I know that this is a point of topic because I actually remember when you and I worked together Joe and you're like, I'm totally transparent. You can see every appointment on my calendar. And I was like, not me. Mine's locked down. You can't see a damn thing on my calendar. CX Joe: Well, this it brings up a really interesting point of the prevailing culture and norms at a given company and potentially going against them. So I actually remember, I think it was when I joined SeatGeek, which was like the third leadership stop in my career was the first one where all the calendars were public for everyone who worked. there and like it was completely shocking for me. I thought it was so strange and everybody was oversharing. I came to learn that it was basically maybe only the CEO and like one or two other execs and the people, ⁓ HR team that wasn't sharing their calendar openly. Everybody else was expected to. So at first it was hard for me and felt against the grain. And when you share openly and you're managing a whole department or you know, five to 10 direct reports who have their own direct reports and so on. You really have to be careful right now. Suddenly you have to like, you know, send separate follow-up, like slacks or messages to explain the context. Cause you cannot always put the context right on the calendar. So it's a pain. Um, but I'm trying to remember back now to talking to you about, about it, DH where I, you know, I felt like I had to adjust because that was the norms in that workplace. And so if Daily Harvest, I'm trying to remember now is maybe similar to Seakeak, was it pretty much everybody shared openly? And then let's say if hypothetically it was only, again, like maybe the founder and a few people leaders who weren't sharing openly, then yeah, I could totally see, you know, giving that feedback and saying, we basically have to do what, I know how horrible that sounds like a sheep, but we kind of have to do what everyone's doing because that's. the culture, that's the norm in this workplace. Lynda Harvey: So the interesting thing, ⁓ one thing that I took from Daily Harvest was there was a lot of interesting things there. But one thing that I really liked and one thing that I will give credit for Rachel for consistently saying was that culture is not a static thing, right? Culture is not a static thing. She would say like, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Lynda Harvey: We don't hire for culture. We hire to enhance our culture, meaning that each person, each individual is going to bring a different take or a different skill or a different perspective. And if we're hiring just to fit a culture, right, if we're just hiring for that thing, then we're not going to get innovation because everybody's going to be the same. So I think for Daily Harvest, like, interestingly enough, I think part of the culture was CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: hiding things. The culture was very much like, shh, we don't talk about Bruno. We're not talking about Bruno. ⁓ So I don't think that that was a piece of the culture there. But I know that I felt very, and I still feel very, very strongly because I did go to an organization and I had a boss who really liked to make sure that I was aware she didn't like my private calendar. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: and she would say, well, everybody shares their calendar. I'm like, but that's not an HR rule. Like, it's not a thing that when you sign on, they're like, and we keep our calendars public, right? And I'm like, if you're not going to make it a company policy, like if it's not a company policy, it's just an unspoken rule, then it's not an actual rule. And so, you know, I think it's important to keep your calendar private because it's CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: What I think that the shift that happens there is the shift on your work output. So my boss who liked to get real fun digs on my super secret spy calendar, ⁓ that was fun, ⁓ was, well, how do you know if your people are working? Well, you should be able to check their output. CX Joe: You Lynda Harvey: Like knowing where they are at every moment of the day. And let's be honest, if we were sitting in an office together, whether it's remote work or sitting in the office together, you don't see that person every moment of the day. mean, my word at my peak, I was doing eight hours of meeting every day. Like I would never see my people anyway. ⁓ So it should be, it shifts it about the workout, but what this really does and the reason that this is such a great boundary, I'm going to bring it back to the boundaries conversation. CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: The reason this creates such a great boundary is so often in organizations, everybody thinks that their thing is the most important thing. And so they look at your calendar and they go, well, you that's Lynda's one-on-one that she has every single week. So I can just schedule over that, right? ⁓ This how we stop losing control over the one that we should be able to control, which is our time. ⁓ And it people CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm Hmm Lynda Harvey: whether it's right or wrong, the authority to make a decision on if they're going to schedule over a thing that you've got or not. And what this does, the reason I think this is such an easy boundary is then people have to call you or they have to message you and they have to say, Hey, you have this thing on your calendar. I don't know if it's important or not, because it's none of your business to decide if the thing on my calendar is important enough to you or not. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: It is to me, that's why it's on my calendar. So then they have to check with you. And that's why I say like when we're starting with new boundaries, when we're starting on something that's really simple, it's an easy way for you to just start like creating protection for yourself and just saying like, well, you have to call me. Now I do know there are some orgs that don't check with you. They just schedule over stuff, but that's when you decline those meetings and you're like, nope, I had something scheduled. CX Joe: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I have. Lynda Harvey: ⁓ But I distinctly remember, I remember you're going like everything's on my calendar and I do remember looking at your calendar going, yep, everything's on his calendar. Because I'm sure like me at that point, because you're dealing with 800 emails a day, sometimes literally, and eight hours of meetings, it's like if it's not on my calendar, it doesn't exist. CX Joe: I guess what you could say is a point of agreement and then a counterpoint. The point of agreement I have is that I think per the norm, you want to get right to the heart of things and kind of cut out the fluff where people putting on airs and so forth. and I think one thing that happens when you're sharing calendars, ⁓ I think I would agree with you that, you know, truth be told, people are still going to strive to bring some kind of balance to their day. Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: And maybe there's something like from personal life that's going to take 15 minutes and you just know that you need to get it done. or maybe you just know that you work best having some solo time or kind of catch your breath time, you know, for half an hour, X or Y part of the day. ⁓ I think sometimes what happens when people share calendars is they put on airs and we'll schedule something else. Like deep dive time on X or Y. And they know that that's their time to maybe tend to that personal thing in their life. And that's just phony and like we could kind of probably all agree to cut that out. ⁓ I think that a counterpoint would be senior leaders sharing their calendars is one way of example setting in a way, I guess I would argue. I know I've, I've coached people on, you know, I'll speak to a manager or director and they're like, I'm just so in the weeds that I can't get to that one project that we talked about that's going to bring me fulfillment or actually push the department forward. So we'll get into it when no, it's a very common conversation about kind of. you know, how to allocate your time for the week and actually scheduling some solo time or thinking time, planning time, et cetera. So I'm trying to think if I did this as much at Daily Harvest or maybe I kind of evolved from there. But that's one of the reasons I would like to share my calendar with the team is I wanted them to actually see that I was actually scheduling time for planning for solo work and that I'd encourage them to do the same. ⁓ or even scheduling time to sign off, to pick up the kids or have dinner with the kids or whatever. ⁓ But another thing that occurs to me, Lynda, which I'm saying kind of with a smile is I think at the end of the day, it might also just get at work preferences too with our team. I always chase this kind of holy grail that the people I'm working with most closely will get to know each other's preferences deeply that they will actually see everything on my calendar. They will actually Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: schedule over things sometimes, or at least suggest doing so, but they'll know which items I have in my week that I think are okay to do that and vice versa. And so then if I'm looking, I'm like, I really have to grab Lynda for half an hour tomorrow that I could actually see your calendar, you know, see at 2 PM is something that Lynda is always okay to schedule over, schedule a meeting and just keep things moving. It feels more efficient to me. And like, we're kind of living in each other's brains. ⁓ Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. CX Joe: something that I aspire for and you may not. And I don't really want to call you to ask you what I could schedule over. And I'm looking at this like huge like blue block or something on the calendar. It's frustrating to me. Lynda Harvey: dark, it's a dark place in here. I mean, I hear you. I hear you. But I still stand by. I think it's crucial, again, when you're setting a boundary to teach people. I think that there are people you can share your calendars with. I mean, you can go through and make your calendar visible to your partner in crime. Right? Like, you can go through and make it visible to that person. I think the other thing from a leadership perspective is everybody's always so paranoid. Everybody else thinks they're getting fired. And I'm like, well, CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: We need to talk about projection. What have you done? Right? Like, why do you have such a guilty conscience? But, you know, it would also strike fear in the hearts of people, you know, when you're private, when your calendar is public, that when they see a private event, right? And it was a way, like if everything's private, then you don't have to worry, right? You don't have to go calendar deep diving and do those things. Like, you don't have to worry about it. So, and I think then also from just CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: a female perspective, right? Like you mentioned, picking up the kids or going and getting things with the kids. And I think so often, like I had to live and die by my calendar, right? I had to put my hair appointments on the weekends in my calendar else it just wouldn't happen. But that's also something that you can be judged for harshly, right? So as a woman in the, in the working world, seeing my hair appointment on there, I've had people make comments. ⁓ CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: or even like signing off to go get the kids, right? I think I've shared in the past, I don't know if I shared this with you, but I was working the first job that I had where I was getting paid to do international travel. Very exciting, full support for anybody who gets to do international travel on somebody else's dime. ⁓ But when we were having these conversations, my CEO actually said to me, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well. Lynda Harvey: It's like, well, I know that you have young kids and can you even handle, can you handle doing this kind of travel with a young family? And knowing the human that he is, right? I know that that was coming from a place of trying to connect with me as a human. Really, I think that that was like his moment. CX Joe: I could see it coming from a good place. I don't approve of what you sort of relate, he said. But I do want to say in all fairness, one could see how that's coming from a good place. It's basically saying, I know that you're somebody who has a family and values family, and I don't want to assume that this level of travel works for you. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. But that is the bias so often that women experience at work where it's like, ⁓ you're a mom, right? Like my kids are my favorite people. In fact, I think I said that to you in our very first one on one Joe. was like, I talk about my kids a lot. They're my favorite choices. They're my favorite people, but so often they can be utilized as it's, it's, it's almost weaponized for me in the work space. And so CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: Again, when you get to that point where you have to live and die by your calendar, and listen, I can't have two calendars. need to have one. I can't split my attention that way. And so again, this is another way I think when we talk about setting boundaries and protecting who we are at work and protecting our time is by making the calendar private. CX Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, it could lead to so many interesting discussions. ⁓ I'll try to keep us a little bit on track. I know that you will also keep me on track, but I'll just say quickly that, you know, as Mr. Calendar everything and be out in the open on every appointment and every kid pickup and so forth. ⁓ Even I have seen how, you know, I don't know how that how well that always reflected to others. ⁓ Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: or to my last boss who would take to making quips about whether I had to go pick up the kids yet at two or three PM. And that was never the time that I had to go pick up the kids, but I think it was their way of letting me know that they saw a lot of kid pickups. ⁓ And Lynda, you know this, but ⁓ my wife, Ena, is an OB-GYN, so it's a pretty demanding job with crazy schedules and hours. yeah, so I actually do lot of drop-offs and... Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: and pickups and I really try to celebrate it, but it's just wild how many conversations it leads to in the workplace and out in the world because to your point, as much as we'd like to think we've advanced beyond this, the fact of me doing so many drop-offs and pickups is intriguing and curious to people whether they love it or it causes some concern because it challenges some gender norm they clearly have in their head, but it actually leads to a very uncomfortable amount of discussion, which is maybe gives me a tiny, tiny small taste ⁓ to what others experience. But Lynda, I also wanted to suggest, I mean, I think one of the comments that you made is that really you so when we think about setting boundaries that really we want the workplace, we want management to be ⁓ kind of output oriented ⁓ and think impact oriented. So in a way it's like, who cares if you worked, you know, Lynda Harvey: Yeah, I totally agree. CX Joe: seven or eight hours or 12 or 14, or if you felt like you had to get back to slacks over the weekend within two minutes, which is something I struggle with, or if you have a healthier balance perhaps and understand like, Oh, I'll get back to that Monday or once for the weekend or whatever a good balance may be. Um, that really should be outcome and impact oriented. Um, when I was thinking about this episode and I was trying to predict where we might disagree and have controversy. ⁓ I wasn't sure if, you know, that I'll give you like a couple of quick takes and, get your reaction. One is that as I got into more senior leadership roles, I felt like. Setting certain boundaries actually wasn't appropriate for my job description and salary. Whereas for other people on my team whose job description was, ⁓ crisper and kind of more contained and who frankly were getting paid less. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: I really wanted to protect their boundaries, but as you get to more senior leadership roles, I felt like, you know what, sometimes a couple of hours in the middle of the day, have in the middle of the workday, I might have the easiest job in the department. And I try to show gratitude for that and do some planning and whatnot. Um, but part of what I'm getting paid for is actually responding within 10 minutes to my founder or boss on the weekend to a Slack. And that's just part of the job. Um, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: But that might impact the way that I'll manage a director in my team, for example, and that's uncomfortable. And we should talk about that. And I also want to talk about the fact that I've really coached people to try to have a good understanding and be really thoughtful about what point in their career they're up to, what they want to put in and what they want to get out of it. Now, when we talk about things being outcome and impact oriented, that means that Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: If you're insanely brilliant and succinct and could kind of channel the impact of your work into a smaller amount of hours, that's great. But if you're a normal person, like the rest of us, who needs more time sometimes to complete that work or to create that impact, there is, in my opinion, this, this uncomfortable, unavoidable dynamic that sometimes more hours, more availability could actually create more value and more output. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: and impact, and that could come into play when it's raise and promotion time. And yet this is where I want to have this discourse. You know, what I'm saying is against the rules. It's probably not in the book that I alluded to in the beginning of our podcast episode, but if I'm a VP and I know that this person is someone, you know, it sucks when things come up on nights or weekends, but they do. And sometimes I need help or feedback to move the department forward. This person steps up and is available. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. CX Joe: you know, 30 times throughout the year. And this person has set a boundary, which I totally respect. And so I know not to bother them those 30 times on nights and on weekends. But when I think about who's moved the department forward the most in that year, how can I not factor in all the 30 times that the first employee, ⁓ you know, participated and gave feedback and did work to kind of move the department forward? Lynda Harvey: I think that that's such a good topic. And I agree with you. think the more senior that you get, do, you have to like, sometimes you are working. I mean, and I think especially in the industry that we're in, like, we're almost never closed. We're almost never closed. And so it's kind of like, well, yeah, I do. I mean, I can tell you that I don't know if I ever shared this with you. So you're learning this now. I remember one Thanksgiving, I was in charge of turning off phones. CX Joe: Yeah. Love it. Oh, I remember. I remember. Lynda Harvey: And I forgot, I forgot to turn off the phones and I took phone calls. Like I, there were three calls in queue and I just like hopped, I was like, shit. I turned off the phones, but I took the three calls in queue. Right. And I was like, I was the director at this point in time. I had no business doing that. I'm sure I messed up those accounts, but you know, like sometimes you do those things, right? Like sometimes you have to do the things. And, and I do think that there is a risk and there is an inherent risk of. If you don't have boundaries or you are always available or you're always doing these things, it could pay off in a big way. And I think that that's probably where we again, are going to kind of disagree a little bit where I'm going to tell people like set a boundary, do not answer those slacks, right? Do not answer those emails. And I think about from my perspective. So I have if it's in my brain, I've got to get it out of my brain. or else it goes into a deep dark hole and then wakes me up four Tuesdays from today, right? Like it's just how my brain works. And so I would always tell my employees, I'm like, listen, and I am the queen of not responding to messages on vacation. Like I just won't do it unless I get a call that's like, I need you immediately. I'm like, do not, I won't do it. And I promise you, you can send me everything you want in Slack or on email or whatever, go ahead. I will respond when I'm back from vacation. And I would always tell my employees that. But I would warn them and I would say, hey, listen, it's possible you're going to get a slack for me on your vacation. It's not because I forgot about your vacation. And it's certainly not because I expect you to respond. It's because I had to get it out of my brain. And I might not have remembered to schedule it for the Monday that you're back. Or there might be so much that's already scheduled. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: that you're going to think you're going to lose your job on that Monday. So I just want you to know that if I put it in there, is zero expectation of you responding and then you have to model that same behavior. And I think that again, when we're talking about boundaries, especially in the workplace and we're talking about senior leaders, so often you will have somebody who's like, don't respond, enjoy your vacation, do the things, but they're on vacation. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And they're responding to slacks and you can see they're responding to slacks or they're checking in with the team. And even though you have told your team that your expectation and you might even believe that they are observing your behavior and they're like, yeah, Lynda says that, you know, I'm not supposed to respond, but I watch her respond on vacation. I watch her do those things. And so again, that's, that's part of the boundary of, you know, will you respond and then setting the expectation. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I think also part of the process of setting a boundary comes from asking more questions. So, or setting expectations. And I would always with my team, I'd say, okay, let me tell you about communication preferences. If it comes in email, it may or may not get a response within 24 hours. Maybe. And there's plenty of emails that didn't get responses at all. ⁓ If it comes in a Slack, promise you, I will look at it same day. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: If you really need me and this is like emergency, it's a text or a phone call. And so I think it's about like even that's a boundary. It's setting up your communication preferences. And so if you're an employee who is sitting in these moments of people who are constantly messaging you because we live in this instant gratification space. Right. And so we feel you know it's funny like in the 90s like you called somebody and you left him They weren't home. You couldn't find them. Suddenly we feel this oblig- I know, right? We feel this obligation of like, my God, I better- No, you don't have to do the things. ⁓ But it's about setting expectations or if you are that person. So if you're the person who's listening, who's always responding or like feels that you, it's a fire drill every time you see a Slack or a message, it's okay for you to start responding with what's the timeline on this? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. I miss it so much. Mm. Lynda Harvey: What's the deadline? When is this due? Right. So because and ⁓ I had a client recently who was traveling and they were out traveling and their team was slacking them and it was a time zone thing. So they were slacking them super late at night and they were responding during like a business dinner and his peer, I was coaching both of them at the time. His peers like cut it out. Like you don't need to respond. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: And my question to him after was, did you take care of it that night? Well, no, I didn't do it till the morning. Okay. So if you weren't going to take action on it until the morning anyway, don't respond until the morning. And again, it's this instant gratification or where we feel it or the fear of pushing back and saying like, Hey, when is this due? Right? Like CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: help me understand when this is due. So you can still be that performer you were talking about Joe, somebody who shows up and does the thing, but you can also ask more questions. Hey, when does this do? Is this urgent? And I think from a leadership perspective, it's about communicating the level of urgency or saying like, Hey, listen, I'm going to slack you on your vacation. I'm going to get after you. If you actually respond, please do not respond. Right. So I think like it's about asking more questions and everything I think in the end boils down to communication, right? CX Joe: Yeah, totally, totally agree. I totally agree with lots of these points and something that I was reflecting on, you know, thinking about boundaries is like one of the things I coach others, but also myself on a lot was trying my hardest. So thinking about, let's say slacks emails, just any kind of work communications on nights and on weekends. I agree with you. And I don't know if this is subjective or just random for me to make this distinction. I consider PTO and vacation time to be very sacred. So I agree with everything you said about vacation time and setting the right examples and so forth. To me, evenings and weekends is where there's more gray area, especially at startups or growth companies, et cetera. And one of the things that I would struggle with and push myself on is trying to put things... Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: into basically like three buckets when they come in on nights and weekends. Is it something that either I, to your point, is very important? So not just taking us like the same uniform handling to everything, just because it came in and there's that stress, but also to your point that sort of reward or like dopamine hit or feeling of importance of like, oh, I got a message again, I must respond right away. First of all, putting it through the lens of is this actually something that's important? Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: If it's not, could probably just wait. If it is, I still would then push myself, is it something that I could actually fix right now? So if I need to and I could, then maybe I'll just go ahead and do that. Even sort of productive planning time and mental cycles, I think could sometimes also be okay. I don't know what this would have looked like 10 or 15 years ago right now in my life. It could be, you know, the kids are running around like animals at the trampoline park. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: And maybe it's just something that I want to kind of plan out and sort through my thoughts for 10 or 15 minutes. And then later I'm going to go and get it all down on paper. I actually think that could still be okay. ⁓ Or the third option is just don't think about it. Just know, categorize it as something that you're going to think about, let's say Monday morning or whatever the appropriate time is. ⁓ The fourth kind of category not being mentioned is where I would spend a lot of time in my career, unfortunately. And I wonder if any listeners relate. You're not doing any of those three. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: you're basically just turning it over in your head over and over. You've let it kind of distract you from your personal time. You've let it kind of bring your mood down, your stress level up, ⁓ and you're not actually planning or dealing with it or putting it to the side. You're just kind of generally turning it over in your head over and over and kind of cursing that it came in. Unfortunately, my mind was kind of predisposed to that fourth bucket quite a lot, and I'd really try to coach myself against that. I mean, that's the worst of all. Now you're not putting up boundaries and you're not even like resolving the issue or moving the ball forward at work. But that's where things could end up sometimes, which is a crappy feeling. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, I think one of the other things you really hit on was the startup culture, that startup culture. again, when we talk about earlier in the conversation, we were talking about how are we changing things from the inside out. Right. And I think that startup culture is very much like first and foremost, I think that there's a lot of ego there and there's this whole ego of like, ⁓ the world's going to fall apart if I don't respond to this thing. When realistically, like CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: If you know, and I think about the startups I've worked at in the sense of like, well, the supplier has to be available. The product manager has got to be available. Like we've got to have marketing on board. Like unless everybody's on DEF CON and everybody's hopping on some kind of bridge, like there's very little that I can do and I can affect on this evening or weekend. Right. And so I think it's also about just like checking your ego for a minute. ⁓ Because sadly, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: Sadly, there are thousands of people who die at work every single year, thousands of Americans. It's a staggering statistic. I wish I had it, but it's a lot. And if you died at work today, it's unlikely your company is going to shut down. It's really unlikely. And so I think it's also about factoring in, again, we feel like we are mission critical. We feel this way. And it doesn't mean that there aren't times that we CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Lynda Harvey: aren't mission critical. But more often than not, it's just this environment of now. And remembering like if you died tomorrow, like the company would still have to survive. Or if you died today, right? So I think it's also like when you're thinking about these boundaries, or we're thinking about like the responses and those types of things. And then also factoring in the risk factor of if I don't do this thing, does that mean that there is somebody else who might be considered for promotion. On the flip side, it also doesn't guarantee you a promotion. It doesn't guarantee those things for you. So I think there's also, there's a risk either way. CX Joe: No. Yeah, 100%. And in ⁓ a way, it's going to be the most destructive for your psyche and your mental well-being if you're always giving extra time and the first one to answer the slack. And then to your point, you don't get the promotion because it's really not meant to be about, it's not a contest of just the most, the most sort of word output or the fastest replies. That's not going to guarantee anything. And ⁓ that can lead to a dark place. If you feel like you've invested so much across that whole year, then you don't get that big promotion. And by the way, it may not be obvious in this episode, but speaking of death, ⁓ Lynda Harvey: you CX Joe: I, you definitely do not want to be on your deathbed, so to speak, or whatever your preferred way is thinking about this or kind of structuring this point, but, and you don't want to be picturing all the times that you, you know, stayed at work two hours late or four hours late and missed dinner and missed things that you care about in your life because you are grooming your inbox or just like wanted to be the last one to leave. ⁓ So I definitely started to value. Lynda Harvey: Took a turn. CX Joe: boundaries and a less insane day and week as my career went on. You know, I think where I'm still a little bit stubborn or some might disagree with me is I think that, you know, we had an earlier episode on toxic workplaces and it's something that we both think about a ton. For me, there's some nuance of a place in my opinion could be a very non-toxic workplace and could still be a place where folks at that company work. very hard and a lot of hours and have blurred lines ⁓ in terms of boundaries. They don't work a nine to five. They may not even work an eight to six. They're busting it and working a lot. Generally speaking, I mean, I would agree that that sounds concerning. Probably at some point in that company's evolution, they'll want to put up some more boundaries or think about the employee experience more. However, I do think, especially in startup culture, there's sometimes you get a group of people. I'm kind of advising and working with one right now. Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: where I feel like it's a group of people who just collectively have decided like, Hey, we actually want to sort of shake up this industry. We want to build a great product. It's going to take a lot of time to get that done in a short period of time. And it feels like they're kind of all swimming in the same direction to get that done. They work a lot. I see the hours of their standup meetings there. You know, it just kind of never stops. ⁓ but what I think is really important, I think we'd agree on as it gets back to communication. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: Um, I hope that that company and any others operating in that way should actually, I don't think that the onus should be on, let's say candidates interviewing for a role. think that company should be very, very clear and proactive communicating like, Hey, this is, you know, the current chapter that we're up to. This is sort of the output that it seems is required. This is the culture right now. And it may not be the right fit for everybody. And that's when you have these really kind of explosively bad situations. It's when somebody joins, um, and it's just a complete. mismatch. I had something come up at my last job, which you probably have a lot of feelings about. I did too at the time. But we had a candidate get pretty deep in a process for a role, and they took it upon themselves to share with us proactively. It's sort of like the idea of like a user manual, but about oneself. And so like, this is how I work. These are my preferences. And they really went into boundaries very deep and very specifically in the interview process. And at some point, my manager, who is kind of the ultimate decision maker for the role, saw what was shared. Totally just nixed that candidate on the spot. and, know, to this day, I have mixed feelings about it because it felt wrong and dirty that that happened to that candidate. At the same time, in some ways, I kind of respected both parties in the situation. One chose to very proactively share. I really value boundaries. They're very distinct and these are what they are. And the other basically read that, consider it and knew that's not going to be a great fit for what this team and company are up to right now. That is not the prevailing culture at this company. Lynda Harvey: I'm actually in full support of all of this, like full support. First of all, bravo to the person who showed up in the interview process with like, this is like what I'm gonna give you and what I'm not gonna give you. I love that for them, right? Like I love for them. I do think that they might have some challenges because they might need to reevaluate. CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm, I know. They're a hero of mine. Mm-hmm. Yes. Lynda Harvey: some of their things, right? But I love that they showed up that way and they're like, this really matters to me and this is the thing. And, you know, a lot of my private clients that I talk to, I'm like, you have to decide what your non-negotiables are. And then you just need to not negotiate on those things, right? Like that's really important. So I love that for that person. And, you know, I really appreciate the CEO or whomever it was going, nope, this is not going to work for me. Right. And we don't know. CX Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: the mental decisions behind that that could have just been like, you don't get to tell me how to do things, which was their boundary, right? There was just like, absolutely not. But I do applaud both people from saying like, ⁓ you know, because I think so often we're like, well, we could change them or we could do these things and just say, no, this is just not going to work. So I applaud both of those things. I do think. ⁓ CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I do think that when you go into a new job or when you are stepping into a new role, it is really good to reevaluate what are your non-negotiables and what brought you here. And I think as we of like wrap things up on boundaries, we should talk about like when you were going into a new role, it's the best time to establish boundaries. It's very difficult. It can be very challenging when you're in the thing, which is why I said go make your calendar private or CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: you know, start delivering things on time. I didn't say that, but I'm saying that now, like deliver things on time. Don't deliver things like a week early. Um, you don't always have to give 120 % because don't forget a hundred percent is still a whole thing. And when you think about this, I want you to think about donuts cause I'm hungry. Um, but you can't have 120 % of a donut. That's a donut and a bite of somebody else's donut, right? Like here's the donut. CX Joe: Mm. You Lynda Harvey: My analogies sometimes are fun. But when you start with a new company, like think about those non-negotiables, think about establishing the boundaries early on. But you don't have to be over the top about it. You don't have to be in your face. This person who applied at this role, they were just like, boom, in your face, boundary. Good for them. Bravo. But if that doesn't sit well with you, if that doesn't resonate, that's okay too. CX Joe: Bye. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: It's okay to like to come in and establish boundaries or, sometimes, and I tell people all of the time, sometimes your silence can be the boundary too, right? Like the silence of not responding to the slack or the silence of not engaging. Those things can also be a boundary ⁓ that you can set early and often when you start in your new role. Cause you get to recreate yourself, right? You get your whole new work persona. CX Joe: Yeah. So I appreciate your desire to put boundaries on the boundaries discussion, meaning I know we should wrap soon. So I'll have one final pushback. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: And then one final question for you with all sincerity, uh, the pushback. So as you know, very well, Lynda, when I was starting at 14, I worked at Dunkin' Donuts. I really liked talking about this. worked at Dunkin' Donuts on and off for like four years. Um, yeah, it's, it's like a huge point of pride in my life. The donut, the munchkin fights in the, in the parking lot. Yep. Um, and so we would get the shells, the donut shells and rings from a bigger Dunkin' Donuts, but we would actually do the icing and the filling. Lynda Harvey: Yes. Yes. I love this for you. Yes. The donut fights. I can't wait to hear the donut fights. Yeah. CX Joe: So like a jelly donut, for example, you'd stick the donut shell in and you'd set the machine to 14. You'd put your bag of jelly on top and you'd press a button or a so session and it fill with jelly. But I would set the machine to like 18 instead of 14 to give the customers more jelly. And so in that particular case, I think I was actually producing 120 % of a donut. So that's my pushback. So think on that one. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oof. Okay noted noted. I appreciate that. CX Joe: And then my last question for you, and people are very happy, trust me, jelly just exploded all over their face. I think they were happy. I think they were happy unless they were like getting into car accidents on the way home, there's jelly just flying everywhere. So then my last question for you, with a little more sincerity is. Lynda Harvey: They're like, every time I come here, the fucking jelly is everywhere. It doesn't happen at other Dunkins. CX Joe: How do you think about different stages of career? you know, if somebody's like, if you had somebody you were coaching and they were, let's say more junior in their career, and they shared with you like, Lynda, I really want to get ahead in career five or 10 years from now, I really hope to be at this level to make this much. This is a very sincere question. Would it, would it sort of complicate or challenge the guidance that you give them on setting boundaries? Or would you kind of more stand firm of like, I want those things for you too, but you're still going to want to set these same boundaries. Lynda Harvey: I'm going to sit firm with boundaries because the way that you hit burnout is by compromising your boundaries. Right. So, and the thing is, is when you're young and you're ambitious, you operate under this idea that it's all about your hard work. And I'm here to tell you, it's not, it's not just about your hard work, hard work matters, but it's also about like how you show up, how you hype yourself up, how you're talking about. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: yourself and how you can quantify your results, which also stems from hard work. But it's really important to understand that it's not, I again, counsel people all of the time who are like, I don't know why I'm not getting a promotion. And I'm like, did you ask for it? Well, no, they should just know. I'm like, So, you know, boundaries are there and they are going to fluctuate. Right. And your non-negotiables today are going to be different. Again, like Joe, when you said As you go up and like you're the right hand, the right hand person to the CEO. Yes, your boundaries are going to be very different than a director's boundaries or a manager's boundaries or an hourly employee's boundaries, right? Like those things are going to be different. So I'm always going to tell you to evaluate your boundaries. You need to understand what your non-negotiables are, but you also need to understand like where you are in your career. But moving your boundaries gives people permission to take advantage of you. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Lynda Harvey: It's not about that. So moving your boundaries is different than changing your boundaries. So you could say, I don't need this boundary any longer because of this thing, right? Or I can't, I'm not going to set working hours because I understand that I have this much time sometimes in the middle of the day, or I don't have anything until it's crisis management time. I don't, I work really hard at the beginning of the sprint and at the end of the sprint, I don't have as much, right? Like CX Joe: Yep. Awesome. You know what, Lynda? Lynda Harvey: maybe that's not a thing and maybe that doesn't serve you any longer. So, but it is really good to consistently evaluate and set boundaries and then stick to your boundaries and keep your calendar private. That's the hill. That's the hill. I will perish on that hill. CX Joe: Well, you're gonna get the last word on boundaries. You win. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna cooperate a little bit more this time, Lynda, than usual, just a little bit, in saying that. Lynda Harvey: ⁓ Amazing. Well, we've come to the end and we, you know, we've got to talk about what's got us hot under the collar, right? So Joe, what's got you hot under the collar? CX Joe: It really irks me. It's like something that irks me about myself, but I lose everything. And I talked on another episode, I think about ordering books from Amazon and never reading them. So I've actually in the last few weeks, I'm very proud of myself. I've convinced myself to do a little bit more reading. I'm taking not all of the Netflix and Apple TV time, but some percentage of it. And I've transferred it to readings. I'm very proud of myself. And then the biggest issue is that I've lost the book. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: When I try to read a book and I'm bringing it around, taking it to the trampoline park, I'm taking it upstairs, downstairs, I just lose it constantly. Really the first, the reason that I brought these two books, I mentioned one before, but for show and tell, there's two books I'm reading. One is fun and I just pick it up at an airport one time. It's The Life Impossible. It's a novel by Matt Haig. It's actually really great. I'm really enjoying it. Lost it like eight times. Then I started to read this book that Jenna from Groon's recommended, The No Rules Rules. Lynda Harvey: Bye! Mm-hmm. CX Joe: Both of these books are taken out from the library because it was one of the many times in each week that my wife saves my life and I was just so sad that I lost my books. And then I considered ordering them a second time from Amazon and that made me so sad. And then she helped to remind me that I could just take them out from the library. So I haven't found either book that I ordered, but I did take both out from the library and I just keep renewing them right now. And so it's something that irks me, but also a lot that I'm proud of as well. Lynda Harvey: Amazing. CX Joe: So look at that. Lynda Harvey: Amazing. Maybe maybe a Kindle like an ebook. Harder to lose. ⁓ CX Joe: What's that? Let's talk about that offline. I don't know what that is. As far as I'd gotten in my thinking is putting one of those Apple air tags on like every book that I read and then just like ringing it and making it sound. But I don't know this Kindle thing. I don't know what that means. We'll have to talk about that after. Okay. Whatever you. Lynda Harvey: you There you go. There you go. Yeah, we'll talk about that. ⁓ Yeah, so the word anyways, which is not a word. It's not a word. And I'm sick of hearing it. I am so sick of and I understand somebody can make the argument similar to like, you know, the pronunciation of poinsettia is actually poinsettia. And poinsettia is the accepted ⁓ pronunciation. CX Joe: Mmm. Mmm. taking this in whole different direction. Lynda Harvey: This is a learning podcast. Stop saying anyways. Just it's not a word. CX Joe: What if you say it to be cute on purpose like tongue and cheek is that allowed? Lynda Harvey: I don't think it's cute at all. CX Joe: What about what about if you say any who to be cute on purpose? ⁓ okay. Just anyways. You just got so serious when you said that. That's like as sharp and angry as you've looked since we launched this pod. You are spreading disinformation to the world. You are bringing the world down. Lynda Harvey: That's fine. But anyways, because people think it's a real word. And it is not. It's just not a word. Sorry. I I think, and the bummer part is I watch people who are credible, I think, and educated, and they spit out the word anyways, and I'm like, ⁓ you lost me. You lost your audience. CX Joe: You're reminding me of the Family Guy episode. Really, really great clip from Family Guy where Stewie the baby, he has like a murderous rage around people using the word, ⁓ irregardless because there's irrespective and there's regardless. And it is a very common issue. People understandably just kind of combine them and assume that irregardless is a word. sounds really, it's, it's actually not. Lynda Harvey: ⁓ that's another one. Yeah. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: And I'll admit it is something that I thought about and noticed maybe once or twice in my life, but I don't want to be a snob. I mean, I'm going to say I'm an English major again, like last time when I said the book 1983. So Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: being an English major, I have noticed that, but I wouldn't want to say anything. then Stewie and family guys spoke up for the rest of us. So I feel like this is your Stewie moment. Okay, good. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Thank heaven. Yeah, I'm going to bat for the word anyway, which is the word anyway. So on that note, on that note, we have come to an end. Thank you, everybody. Like, subscribe, do the things. CX Joe: Yes, it is a word. That's a very noble cause on that note. Thank goodness. Anyways, sounds good. See you next time, Lynda. Bye. Lynda Harvey: Bye.