Latest / UNCOACHED / Bringing the Joy Back to Youth Sports
Transcript
- Welcome to Uncoached, a podcast for volunteer coaches and parents figuring out youth sports as we go. Each episode, we keep things simple: five questions to talk about practical insights you can actually use with your youth athletes. My guest today is John Orr. He's the founder of the Sports Reclamation Project, and someone who's spent decades coaching and thinking about how we can make youth sports better. John's also a military veteran, and he's passionate about bringing the focus back to development, leadership, and most importantly, making sure kids actually enjoy playing sports. Today, we're talking about what youth sports is getting right, where we've maybe lost our way a little bit, and what parents and coaches can do to help bring some of that joy back. John, thanks so much for being here. I appreciate your time. Maybe give me a quick little bit of background and, and let the folks know who you are and, and what you're all about. Hey, Brad, first of all, thank you for having me. Huge fan of your podcast. I listen to it re- religiously. I like what you guys are doing, so I'm glad to be here. Thank you. Um, you wrapped it up. I'm a military veteran. My name is John Orr. More importantly, I'm a, uh, father, first of all. I'm a educator, and I am what you call a recovering basketball coach. I, after 25 years, I stepped away from it to focus more on the reform side of it. I just, I saw a lot of things I didn't like and wanted to be a positive change in it. So I started the Sports Reclamation Project, and it's just been going from there. Your mission with the Sports Reclamation Project is to bring joy back to youth sports, which I absolutely love and I'm totally aligned with. When you look at youth sports today, where do you think we started losing that joy, and are there some things that we as adults are, are maybe getting a little bit wrong here? Oh, that's a loaded question. Um, it real- that's... There's so many ways you can take that. I, I really think, um, the personalization, when adults started taking it personal. And I'd, I, I always put my disclaimer out, 'cause I've been accused of not like, say, I've been accused of not liking sports parents, which is not true- because I myself am a sports parent. When we started making our child's success our personality, or when we started being everything in our family life was wrapped around our kids. Like, I'm, I'm in my early 40s. I could have imagined looking at my dad after he worked 60 hours a week and saying, "Hey, Dad. Um, so on Friday we gotta drive seven hours so I can play basketball tournaments all weekend- ... and then drive back." He would look at me like I needed my head examined. So I think that's one of the way, and then just the pay-to-play model has really kind of- Yeah ... really kind of taken over the sports complex, and it's really... People think because they're paying, it's gonna be of more value, and that's not always the truth. Yeah, and I think what you said there is very important because oftentimes I feel like the adults are making the outcome of the youth sport process more than the actual experience that the kids are getting. That's dangerous because then you start looking towards wins and towards trophies and things like that, rather than, hey, is my child actually developing as a person? You know, are they picking up the characteristics I want them to have in life? Are they learning? Are they developing? That sort of thing. And I know that's what you're all about as well. Um, but I think it's an important thing that we focus more on that journey than the outcome, uh, that we're focused on in youth sports. Oh, most definitely. The journey is, the journey is there, and the journey can be, can last as long as you want it if you, you, you do it right or you go the right way. Like s- I'm in my 40s, and up until a couple years ago, I was still playing regular ba- basketball on a routine. Yeah. I had a long-term goal. A lot of these- People have been sold this bill of goods that if you don't have a signing day after y- your senior year, the journey is over. So I believe there's a rush to get there as opposed to long-term athletic development or long-term love of sport. Yeah. And, and man, you touched on something earlier too when you said, you know, you're in your mid-40s, I am as well, or your early 40s, I'm in m- my mid-40s, but I'm the same way. You know, when I was growing up, my dad was, uh, in construction, my mom was a stay-at-home mom, a very blue collar family, but it was like there's no way I'm gonna hit my dad up to, to take me every night to a practice, even if that thing started at 5:00, 5:00 PM, which I know a lot of, you know, these practices for kids are starting and they're playing multiple hours, and it's like we... The pendulum swung so much from when I think we were probably kids playing sports to, to where we're at today. You know, it's, it's crazy. Like I, I sometimes I look around and I wonder how are parents managing this just from a time perspective because it's like you have a day job, how the heck are you getting your day job done and you're getting to a practice at 5:00, 5:30, and then you're there for a couple of hours and you're doing that every single day. It's just like this constant cycle, you know what I mean? It's, it's mind-boggling to me too because a lot of them have more than one child doing this. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's so- you know, they, they... The, the expression we all have the same 24 hours. I'm like, yeah, but you gotta- ... manage a household, you gotta make sure your children are... Hopefully, make sure your children are succeeding in school and being successful students. You're keeping up a marriage and a family life. So I, I, I, I don't wanna know, but something has to be sacrificed, and it's not something that you n- you really wanna look into. Yeah. No, I hear you. And something that you've coined this term that I absolutely love is you talk about this, what you call the race to nowhere, where families are chasing better teams, more exposure, higher rankings, you know, looking at scholarships. There's always the next thing. You know, you're going, you're going, you're going. How can parents tell the difference between giving their child, you know, the right opportunities and just getting caught up in that rat race, you know? That's hard, honestly, and I wish I had a direct answer. I've always said the biggest thing we, we chase is wins, and that's an issue. And just because your child is on a winning team doesn't mean they're learning anything, doesn't mean they're growing. Um, so it's very hard. I think the child has to be included. I would love to take a A blind poll, it's 'cause I, I cover a lot of basketball tournaments in my little side job I have as a scout, and I would love to talk to these kids away from their parents and go, "Do you really wanna be doing this? Is this something you wanna do, or were you put into doing it?" Because I think a lot of kids, and you can tell it's obvious in a lot of kids, that there's other things they'd rather be doing. And there's this misconception that every kid playing high school basketball or high school sports wants to play in college, and I don't think that's the case either. I think they get caught up, and they're afraid to... They see the money being spent, and they're afraid of disappointing people, and I think a lot of that just you, you end up running in place. A- and I think to, just to add on that On the parent side, and I've been on... I, I don't coach everything for my kids. I am on the parent side for some of the teams, and I s- I see some of the stress or the fear or the FOMO, whatever you wanna call it, that if I don't say yes to everything that's presented to me, I'm gonna be missing out, my kid's gonna be missing out, and they're gonna fall behind. And that just puts so much stress on a family because it's like, for a baseball example, right? You're gonna play your tournaments, then you're gonna have your weekly practices, but then there's pitching practice, and then there's, you know, hitting skill practice, and then is there additional skill training on top of that or whatever that looks like, and you're saying yes, yes, yes, because you want your kid... You know, you're pushing them so hard. And I just think we're in this cycle of, you know, I guess it's just FOMO. I don't know. But it's, it's just this fear that you're, if you don't say yes to everything, you're either gonna make your coach angry, the club angry, or your kid's gonna fall behind. You know what I mean? And you're exactly right, and I think the thing is is a lot of it is just sales. Yeah. Because let's, you and I both are, let's... Well, I will go to my grave saying Tony Gwynn was the best hitter I ever watched. Yeah. I'm a big, huge baseball fan. 100%. A, a Pirates fan if you wanna call that professional baseball. Okay. But Tony Gwynn, I guarantee you, was not seeing a private hitting coach when he was 15 years old. He was playing. You know, my, the legendary, the legendary... Basketball, which is my background, the legendary story of Michael Jordan getting cut from his varsity team. Mm. Yeah. His parents didn't go hire a trainer. He went out and got better on his own. I think a lot of it's the bill of goods, and I think a lot of that comes to, you'll notice a lot of coaches in these travel programs run these, you know, they give private lessons. So that I think a lot of parents are misled to believe, "Well, if I sign up for these private lessons, that might lead to an opportunity later on that same team for my kid." And I don't necessarily, I don't wanna accuse anybody of, any coach of leading on that way, but the assumption is there. Yeah, and I think you said it very plainly, and I, I agree. It's, it's a lot of sales. So, you know, these clubs are, it's big business, and it's, it's all over social media. You can hear it a- anywhere you go. It's a, it's, you know, how many billions of dollars of an industry? And what do you do as a company? You try to get your customers to return and to be active as much as possible. And so now we've got this year-round cycle of focus within an individual sport. It's taken away some seasonality and some opportunities, I think. But I think you put it, put it really well, right? It's a lot of salesmanship and, and, and things like that. Um, so, you know, if, if my advice is to, is to parents is don't be too stressed or, or freak out if you're, you're missing out on a couple things. You also need some rest and some personal time for your family, too. Absolutely. And the scariest thing I think that people have not made the correlation yet or realized is it used to be uncommon when we were coming up to see a 16-year-old with a torn ACL, or a- Yeah ... 15-year-old needing Tommy John surgery. That would have been catastrophic in our, in our lifetime. Yeah. Nowadays, it's not uncommon to see 14, 15-year-olds with the ACL brace on, or kids missing their sophomore year of high school baseball because they had Tommy John surgery. Right. These are surgeries that were designed for players in their late, mid to late 20s, early 30s, who played a year of prof- or years of professional sports, and their body just gave out. Now this is happening at 15, 16 years old. That should tell you something- That's right ... right there and- That's crazy. Uh, it's a great point. So on, on the flip side, uh, away from youth athletes and more focused on coaching now, you've been pretty outspoken about coaches burning out, and I think you've even written about this, you know, reaching that point yourself after, I think, 25 plus years of coaching yourself. What are we asking of youth coaches today that's making good people wanna walk away from coaching, and what needs to change, in your opinion? Honestly, a lot of it is they expect, people expect more than what you can do. Um, practice in most places, you get two to three hours a week in the game. Um, again, I relate it to my day job as a teacher. I can give you the tools you need, but if you don't go home and study you're only gonna get so far. But I think a lot of it is managing the behaviors, managing, you know, neuro- a lot of neurodivergent kids now managing parents with misplaced expectations. It's never... I've, I've been a coach, I've refereed, and I've ran leagues, and it never ceases to amaze me, we can't get enough volunteer coaches and referees, but on Saturdays they're all in the stands. So- That's right ... they, they pile, they pile it on, and the other thing a lot of people don't realize is a lot of coaches, when their children age out, they, they leave. They don't stick around. They, when their kids age out, they go on, and they don't make the job a very lucrative job. One of the, one of the last city-based organizations I ran with, um, we get... A lot of times they didn't even have coaches for teams until the meet and greet and some mom or dad stepped up. Yeah, and you're, you're talking, you're talking my language here, 'cause that's kind of why I started the whole platform here just focused on volunteer coaches, because there's not a lot of support out there, and you do get people just randomly stepping up into a role. Um, and I think you said it great. They have to wear a lot of hats. They have to be psychologists, you know, conflict managers, babysitters. You know, it feels like you're babysitting sometimes. Um, and I think people forget it's just a huge amount of time too for coaches. And I guess, you know, a little bit of advice for parents maybe is, is just keep that in mind that, that, that your coaches are humans too. They're doing this on top of most likely a day job. Um, they're not getting paid in, in many instances, and so they're doing the best they can. Um, so, so give them a little leeway. John, you spent some time in the military, um, where, you know, I, I can only assume, I did not serve, uh, you know, thank you for your service. But I am... I can only assume where discipline, accountability, preparation, teamwork, you know, those things, they matter a lot. What did something like the military teach you about leadership that has influenced the way you coach kids? And are there parts of that military leadership that maybe don't belong in youth sports? Oh, great question. Um, my longtime mentor, now one of my closest friends, um, as I ranked up, told me one time, when I started making rank in the military and I got to the NCO roles, he told me one time, he goes, "If you're yelling all the time, when are they gonna know you're serious?" Which stuck with me a lot. Yeah. If you're always yelling And we come into a life and death situation, how are they gonna know you're being serious? That was the first thing that stuck with me. And the other one was you al- you can't get you out of other people. You, there are people, I was in the United States Navy, there are people that ate, slept, and breathed the Navy. I was, as soon as the uniform came off, the role came off for me. I was dad. I was a, I was everybody but the Navy. Um, but those are two. The biggest one is the, if you're yelling, because I see, y- we see the same highlights on social media, these intense coaches yelling and screaming and they always relate it to the military. And I laugh because what they don't tell you about the military is boot camp is about 70% classroom instruction. Mm. You are, you do it until you couldn't get it wrong if you wanted to. Yeah, there's a little bit of screaming and yelling, but that's not intense. That's more to rally you. Yeah. But even then you're talking about grown men and women. You're not talking about 9 and 10-year-olds. Right. But the amount of people who yell and try and run it like it's an iron-fisted approach, and they try and relate it to the military, kind of makes me laugh because a lot of those people never served. And again, you're comparing what you would do to people who are 18 years and older to what you're gonna do to 12-year-olds. It drives me nuts, I'll be honest. When I see a coach just out there screaming, it feels like, you know, you watch these movies like Any Given Sunday or, or things like that where you've got a c- a coach just up players' butts. They're yelling, they're screaming, and it's like everybody thinks that that's the right way to coach. You're not a good coach if you're not out there screaming and yelling and on your players' butts so hard all the time. And I'm just the complete opposite. I, I want my players to play. I want them to experience failure. We'll talk about it later, 'cause what good is that gonna do in the moment when you're just yelling and screaming? You're gonna embarrass them. They are going to be shut down. They're gonna probably be afraid to take that opportunity next time that play happens or, or whatever it looks like. But I, I mean, I, I'm with you, uh, 100%. We've gotta change this, uh, atmosphere of coaches just screaming because they think it's a good way to coach. And if you remove the game from the situation, uh, like if I took that same situation and put it in the hallway of my school, and they just saw me verbally dressing down a child, uh, they would pro- that, that person would probably be in my administrator's office wanting answers. Or if you had your children in Walmart and you were three inches off their face screaming at them in Walmart, you'd probably be followed around the store for a little bit. It's not okay. So- It's not okay ... why is it acceptable? I mean, you want them to make mistakes. It's, it's gonna happen. Yeah. It's, it's gonna happen. So the, the yelling thing definitely, it, it makes me laugh, and sometimes when I have coach against coach like that, I just wanna w- I wanna walk over to, like, the half court and go, "Dude, why, why are you yelling?" Why, yeah. "We're all in, we're all in the same gym. Why are you screaming?" That's right. But that's the one that makes me laugh is- Time and place Yep. And age- And they, they- ... maybe, right? The, the, and, and the thing is, they always look at Bobby Knight- Yeah ... and I have my opinions on Bobby Knight, or they'll look at Danny Hurley or Pat Riley- Mm-hmm and they, they forget, they overlook one important aspect of that is these are grown men. This is their job. If they're not successful, they do not have a job. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, th- this is how they feed their family. This isn't a Saturday at the YMCA, the 10:30 in the morning game. That's right. This is how these, this is how these guys feed their family. They've spent, they've spent their lives doing this. So yeah, the yelling thing, I mean, not... I've gotten loud with teams before, but normally not when they're on the court because it shut, they shut down. They're not gonna respond. Yeah. Not, not, not during a game. And, and yeah, I mean, I think everybody that's coached has probably gotten loud. I have gotten loud. M- mine is more so when the, th- there's behavior issues, you know, at practice with, with kids just not listening and, and behaving. Um, but man, y- you're spot on. Uh, we j- we, we just have to change that culture, I think, of, of screaming to coach, um, a- and calming things down. So you've written about adults stacking teams and prioritizing winning over development. If winning isn't the best measure, which I agree with, of whether a youth coach is doing a good job, what should parents actually be looking for when they look at their child's season or when they're looking at a team and a coach to, to join? I always encourage, I have a parent meeting at the beginning of the year. I'm a little bit over the top when it comes to rec ball and youth sports. Look a week-to-week basis. Um, and that requires a lo- uh, with basketball, which is mainly my background, that requires a lot of painful observations. Like, one of the rules I tell my parents when I coach, now I coach basketball through my church still. It's something I'll always do, and my- they know to get me to coach, I'm not coaching higher than second grade because that's when you can start, you can start building good habits. I tell every parent, "Look from week to week," 'cause the two things I promise parents at the beginning of the year is your child will touch the ball every game, and your child will be confident enough to shoot by the end of the year. So my goal is every child touches the ball every game, and the long-term goal is everybody scores. But you look at it from the aspect of that kid in week one who can barely get the ball up the court to half court where he can start without bouncing it off his foot, how much better has- have they gotten? You look at that kid who's a little bit more advanced, can they start using their left hand? But you look on a s- week-by-week basis, 'cause I'll be honest with you, I truly think most parents, they, yeah, they wanna win. They like to win, but at the same time, I've seen parents on teams who have been stacked, and I, I say they use the coach's rule where, you know, the coach's- Yeah son plays where him. We'll have five, they'll have five coaches- Yeah, right ... on a seven-year-old team, and I'm going- Yeah. We know why ... I'm going, "Dude." Oh, I see it all the time, and I'm like... One year I was coaching two teams in the same age bracket and h- ran across a team like that. But you gotta l- you gotta look at the kid at the end of the bench. I've seen, I've seen teams where they're 500, but every kid across the bench has gotten better. You gotta look at a week-to-week basis. You gotta look at the little things, and you gotta take things in perspective, and those are the things that people wanna hear. I've come to realize in my time coaching that most parents are happy if their kid's involved. Yeah. Most. Not all of them, but if their kid's involved. If they know their kid's gonna get a chance to bring the ball up the court and be involved, they're happy. Yeah, and I think most parents gravitate towards wins as that evaluation, 'cause that's like the most tangible thing that they've got. But I think you're s- you're right on. I'm with you. If you looked at the development that's happening in those kids, are they picking up some skills that maybe they were weaker at throughout the season, that's, that's how I would measure success, too. The other thing I use is I, I like seeing my kids smile. Like, it sounds really soft, but I wanna, I want them to be enjoying what they're doing and having fun, and I want them to come back, and I want them to be excited to go to practice and excited to play the games. I don't want people dreading the things that we're doing. So that's also... I, I just... My measurement is, is the, is the smiles. It sounds weird, but I, I love seeing my kids smile and having fun, you know? No, and I get it. I, I've been doing this for a while, and I get it. And I, I... My thing is I have won championships at the scholastic level. I've, I've had a decent amount of success, but the moments I take the pride in, pride in the most is when rec ball signups happen and I start getting texts from parents from last year or the year before going, "Hey, are you coaching? So and so wants to play for you again." Right. Right. That's when I feel like I won, 'cause it's never the better players. It's the kid who may have never played before or might not have been that good that we brought along. Those are the ones that wanna play for me again. And it takes a level of patience, which I'm getting better at, 'cause even I struggle. We all- Yeah ... struggle with patience. Anybody, anybody volunteering to hang out with a bunch of 10-year-olds and- There's something not wise in it. But it takes, it, it's... There's a level of joy in seeing those kids that may not had a clue that get better. And, um, parents look at it, the scoreboard, because we're told from the beginning the scoreboard's the big- the biggest determining factor of success. But I've watched plenty of games where a team has won, and one kid has scored 20 of 30 something points while everybody else has stood around and watched. Right. Right. Is that really a good team, or are they just... Yeah. Yeah, no, I, I hear you. They're not developing a team, they just, they're riding the shoulders of, of a kid that's a little bit more advanced at their age right now in, in this time. Yes. So I- I'm gonna, I'm gonna slip in two other questions on you. Um, if, if y- if you were able to, to l- hand over a league, say basketball league, to a group of kids, and you told them that they're gonna redesign that experience that they're gonna be able to play in, what do you think they'd keep from that experience and what do you think they'd get rid of? Um, ooh, that's a good question. That's a tough question. I honestly think that they would definitely keep the fact that a lot of them sign up and play with their friends. Yeah. So they would wanna still play with their friends. I really think they would get rid of a lot of the external pressures. Yeah. Like, I mean, I literally as a coach have had to leave my bench, walk down to the baseline under a basket, and ask parents to move. Stop yelling at your child. Stop. They need to think. They need to process. I think they... Honestly, a lot of it would be parent focused. Kids know when they, kids know when they make a mistake They don't need mom or... I think they would change a lot of that, because I've seen it. I have seen it as a referee, I've seen it as a coach. Um, but I think the keeping with their friends would definitely be something they'd wanna do. I think they'd wanna keep score, 'cause even if you don't keep score, even the scoreboard's turned off, kids know who's winning and who's losing. And I really think they would want it to be more fun. They would want some of the restrictions we put on these leagues taken off. But the biggest thing they'd change I think would be a lot of the interactions with their parents, and honestly I think a lot of the things coaches do. I don't think they'd want a lot of the things coaches do if they're asked. They're told that it's normal to be yelled at by a coach. They're told it's normal to run from mistakes. They're told this stuff, but is, is it really the truth? Yeah. I, I'm with you. I think, um, I, I wrote down a couple things that I would say, and I, I wrote down immediately, "Kick the parents out of the gym." You know, let's, let's just let the game happen, right, without the parents there. And I wanna touch on something that you mentioned too is keeping score, because I know there's a lot of proponents for not showing a scoreboard or not keeping score. I'm a huge proponent of always having a score, and it's not because I'm focused on winning, but to your exact point, the kids are keeping score. They're, they're practicing and they're putting in this work, and they wanna see some results of that on the scoreboard. You know, right or wrong, but I think that's part of sport, right? Scoring and points are part of the sport. And so I don't think it's a, it's a negative thing to show a, a scoreboard. Now, if things get out of hand, right, and you've got one team blowing the other team out, maybe you, you stop calculating that score so visually, but you're spot on. Kids are keeping score. I've had eight-year-olds that are just keeping track of goals scored or, you know, the baskets that they've made in our, in our church league too. So it, it happens naturally. And I think the score and the blowout thing, I think that falls on a coach. Um, especially in the younger levels, if you're blowing a team out, you know better. You know how to- Yeah ... you know how to pull back, and if you're not, that's on you. Yeah. I, I take great pride. I've had one player quit on me in the last 10 years, and it was because his parents didn't like I pulled back in a blowout, and I guess they were. I was like, "No, we, we ended the first quarter 34 to nothing." Right. Right. So I'm like, "Look, no more stealing the ball," 'cause I'm... Mainly 'cause I ain't trying to fight somebody on the way to the parking lot. We just over, we just overmatched this t- and his parents quit. But when it comes to blowouts, I- Coaches know how to co- coaches know how to calm down a blowout. They don't, and nobody wins. The team winning in the blowout's not learning, and the team losing in a blowout's not learning. All you're doing is killing the joy for one and boosting the ego of another, and neither one is beneficial. Yeah. And what a fantastic opportunity. If you're on, if you're beating a team by a lot, and I don't mean a fantastic opportunity because you are winning, I mean because what I like to do is I get players in positions that they normally don't want to play or don't have an opportunity to play. Mix those things up, and what a great opportunity for those kids to get out and experience some things. So I'm, I'm heavy into soccer right now, and so it's... If I've got a goalie, you know, I'll put them as a forward, or, you know, mix and match some things so that these kids get different experiences. And what a nice opportunity if you're up by three goals or four goals so that you're not just continuing to hammer that team, but you're giving your team some development opportunity, too. So, um, you know, maybe, maybe a note to coaches out there, make sure you're utilizing that as an opportunity to help your team grow even more. You're exposing your kids to, and I'll tell a personal story about this. The last high school, the last school team I coached on, I had the greatest job in the world. I was an assistant coach. There's not, not a better job in the world than being an assistant coach, especially at the s- at the school level, 'cause when... Nothing greater than when the parents approach you going, "You see, you see the big guy in the back? The little tall guy?" That's right. Not a greater... But we were dominant. We... It was a very dominant girl squad, and the coach I worked under, myself, and the third coach made a point to get everybody in in these blowouts. Well, city championship game, we came across a team who had... The only team, uh, the team I was a part of had went 28 of 30. Wow. The only team to beat us had beat us twice, and beat us handily. Okay. City championship game, we realized we had one girl, we found out she was on the spectrum. She also had, she also has, she's a rising eighth grader getting Division I track offers. Wow. So they had this one quick point guard, and we decided put her in there and just stick her on this point guard. She never har- she hardly played but in blowouts the rest of the season, but because we'd given her the opportunities throughout the year by getting her in, she ended up shutting down that point guard, and not only that The only two points she scored this season were the go-ahead basket in the city championship game Oh, that's awesome. That's fantastic. But had, had my... And I give the, a lot of the credit to the guy I coached under, 'cause he was on board with it. Had we not given her that exposure, we would not have been able to do that. For sure. And a lot of coaches get excited. They wanna go and say, "Oh, we won 75 to 6." Cool, um, but- Yeah. But that's, and that's one of those things. Yeah. You're building, you're giving exposure to everybody, not just your top six. Yep. I, I think that's right on. John, I, I, I don't wanna let you get outta here and out of this conversation without tapping into the, the scout part of your, um, experience. So just really quickly, you're scouting some, some players. Give me a couple characteristics that you're looking for beyond talent Okay, and I've, I've had this conversation a lot with parents, and I apologize in advance, 'cause it seems gross, 'cause we're talking about children, but when you get to the level where you're being looked at by scouts, and I scout for a company called Prep Girls Hoops, we are an independent scouting agency who reaches out to 250 Division I through Division III schools. And again, I apologize for the gross analogy, but when we're out there looking at your, your children, and I mainly scout girls basketball, we know what they can do on the court. Right. We're wanting to see if we can tell a coach if they're worth the investment of a college scholarship, and I hate using the word investment- Yeah 'cause it sounds so, it just sounds awful. But we look for intangibles, body language, um, how you react when things aren't going that way, how you react when you get pulled off the, pulled out of the game 'cause you're having a bad game or you're in foul trouble. Do you go down to the end of the bench, throw a towel over your head and sulk, or are you engaged? We look how you respond to the referees. We look how you respond to your coaches. 90% of the things we look for are non-verbal communication. Um, one thing that stuck with me when I first started doing this, I had a coach reach out to me, and this is the one I tell kids all the time when I talk to them. He asked me about a girl he was wanting to offer, and he goes, "How is she with her parents?" "P- parents? What are you talking about?" He goes, "I want you to find out what her relationship is with her parents." "Okay, why? I'm curious now." And he goes, "Because, 'cause if she treats her parents and coaches like crap, how is she gonna treat me?" Yeah. It's all the intangibles. Everybody can score. Scoring is a small, a small factor of the game, because I talk to kids all the time, unless you're in, like, the ESPN top 10, if you're going to college as a rising freshman and you're the number one offensive option in a basketball program, you're in trouble. Like, you're not, that's not a place you wanna be. So there's a lot, but a lot of it's just non- nonverbal communication, body language, how you present yourself. I'm so happy to hear you say that. You know, I didn't, I didn't prompt that answer. You're the pro at this and, and you've done this. It's the things that we're talking about, or at least that I talk about a lot, is the intangibles, and I think people kind of get tired of hearing about that. But I don't think they realize how impactful those intangibles really, really are to just, just the kid that's growing up and h- the person they're g- they're gonna be in the future, but also opportunities where if they do have the talent but they don't have the intangibles or that personality that's positive, it's gonna really, really hurt them in the long run. And so it's important to put a focus on those at a younger age. And the, the hu- level of humility is there too. I had a nephew who, uh, played Division I college football. Uh, such a big enough recruit that when he committed, ESPN flew down to his high school for his signing day. Wow, okay. And he told me when he got to college, he realized everybody there was the best in the state- Right best in the region, best in the country. He goes, and this was five, six years ago, "There's a level of humility you need coming in." And then with the transfer portal, it's gonna get worse because- Yeah ... and coaches don't have time to wait. We talked about it earlier. These j- these men and women are, their job is based on your performance. They don't have time to develop you from an immature high school kid to a prospect, and it's getting more and more competitive now because you're gonna see, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, you're gonna see a lot of kids who 10 years ago would've been Division I signees signing Division II and Division III deals because the transfer portal's backing up. Yeah. Yep. It's, it's stirred things up quite a bit. John, that's, that's all the questions I have for you now. I think we could probably keep going, but I wanna keep it to our, our promised five questions. I did slip in a couple extra, so thanks for- Sure ... for bearing with me. But a wealth of knowledge, a wealth of experience. Thank you so much for sharing it with the audience and, and having a conversation with me. Um, where can people go to learn more about what you're doing and find out more about you? Okay. Thanks. Um, I've got, uh, the Sports Reclamation Project on Facebook. There's also the website www.sportsreclamationproject.com. There you can click on a link and purchase my book off Amazon, which is called Hijacked. If you're interested in more of my scouting perspective on stuff, you can find me on Instagram at john_pghoops757. If you're just interested in the scouting world, that's a good place to go. That's awesome. Yeah, and I would highly encourage everyone to, to give John a look. He's, uh, a tremendous perspective, and again, if you couldn't tell from this conversation, just an all-around great guy. So John, thanks again for, for being here. Appreciate you having me. Thank you, Brad. If this episode helped you, share it with another coach or parent who's figuring it out too. You can find Uncoached and this episode wherever you listen to podcasts. You can watch the episode on YouTube, and make sure to follow the Coaching Dad on Instagram, TikTok, or Facebook. We'll see you next time on Uncoached.