Latest / Motherhood Uncut / We Survived, and We Are Thriving With Jessica Buchanan

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We Survived, and We Are Thriving With Jessica Buchanan · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Motherhood Uncut podcast, where we talk honestly about the reality of motherhood.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Kate Kripke.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a space for mothers to feel seen, heard, and understood, especially those navigating the intersection of raising young kids while also maintaining the passions, the purpose, and work outside of motherhood.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's called Uncut because we do not hold back here.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Through expert conversations, personal stories, practical tools, and honest reflection, we explore what it means to care for ourselves, stay connected to our kids, and remember that we can feel hard things and still be okay.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad you're here.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: In January of 2012, she was rescued by SEAL Team 6 in a dramatic military operation that made international headlines.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: But this episode isn't really about the kidnapping or about the rescue.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's about what came next.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just days after returning home, Jessica became pregnant.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: She entered motherhood while her body, mind, and nervous system were still recovering from profound trauma.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And despite everything she had already survived, she describes motherhood as one of the hardest things she has ever experienced.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And in this conversation, we explore purpose, intuition, trauma, postpartum depression, and anxiety, and what it means to find freedom when so much of life is outside of our control.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Jessica shares one idea that has stayed with me ever since we recorded this conversation.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: We don't always get to choose our options, but we do get to choose how to respond to them.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: We also talk about the life-changing power of having someone believe in us and then making the choice to believe in them.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: This conversation includes a discussion of kidnapping, violence, miscarriage, postpartum depression and anxiety, intrusive thoughts and trauma.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So please take care of yourself as you listen.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Jessica's story is extraordinary.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: But what she teaches us about resilience, healing, and motherhood is deeply human.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: My hope is that you walk away feeling reminded that struggling does not mean you are failing.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes surviving motherhood requires a kind of courage that no one else can see.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: The women I work with are often deeply thoughtful, capable, ambitious mothers who care tremendously about their children and also about the work passions and purpose they hold outside of motherhood.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: But somewhere along the way, anxiety, guilt, overwhelm, and pressure begin pulling them out of the present moment and away from the experience they long to be having.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: The Calm Connection Accelerator is my 12-week experience designed to help mothers move from survival mode into greater calm, confidence, steadiness, and connection, both with themselves and with their children.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: If that resonates with you, I'd love to invite you to book a call with me.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk through what's feeling hardest right now, what you most want for yourself and your family, and whether the Calm Connection Accelerator feels like the right next step for you.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: You can find more information and the link to book a call in the show notes.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us a bit about who you are?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's an amazing question.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Let me actually let me preface this, both for you and for our listeners.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying I'm at not asking this question for a grandiose answer.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: I actually really want all of us as women, regardless, like some of the women I interview are literally changing the world.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like their focus is on on making the planet a bigger, a better place in big ways.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the women I interview are doing that, are doing other things in teeny tiny ways.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the what you're doing matters less to me than what is your heart call?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: What do you, what's important?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I appreciate that.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I feel like purpose is kind of um a moving target, right?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just always evolving.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I am I and I love this question.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just so like so excited to be able to have this conversation because how how often do people ask you, like, what do you stand for and what do you care about?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And what keeps you up at night?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think about purpose like probably 23 hours out of 24 hours of every day because I'm so obsessed with the idea.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's very much my own personal truth, and that has helped me heal.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: I really believe that um purpose is the driving connector for like our ultimate healing.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um when I I'm currently in the middle of writing another manuscript, um uh and it's it's called Surviving Survival How to Turn Life's Hardest Moments into Meaningful Contribution for the World.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if you ask me, like, what am I like what do I stand for?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I stand for.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um the last 10 years of my life have been in pursuit of um purpose and healing from trauma that we'll talk about, I imagine, um, in a few minutes.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um I had dinner actually last night with a friend that I haven't seen in like years.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was, you know, just reconnecting with her and talking about how actually she made it into my manuscript because she came into my life at a time um when I really needed like professional mentors, mentoring and support.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to know how meaningful her what like what she poured into me in terms of like helping me on my path, my purpose-driven mission of you know, healing.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I said to her last night, like, you know, at that time in my life, I was in so much pain.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt so lost because I didn't, I thought my purpose had like dried up and withered out there in the desert, you know, and I I didn't know I had two little kids, uh, I'd lost my professional, like my profession, I'd moved continents, like I didn't know who I was anymore because I didn't know what my purpose was.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I and I, you know, and again, this I can only speak for me.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is my truth and what I've experienced.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had people tell me, like, your purpose is just to exist.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, that's fine, but that doesn't work for me.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't work for most people, yeah.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do I hold on?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's nothing for me to hold on to just existing.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it has to, like, this life here has to mean something.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and the pain that I've survived has to mean something.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and what I'm really curious about, um, and also just like again, and I really am obsessed like with this.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think about it all the time is like how do people find purpose, especially after they've survived just heart-wrenching gutting pain and trauma.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's those are the stories that I'm so like attracted to because it gives me hope that I can get on the other side of whatever it is I'm experiencing.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it also just like inspires me and empowers me because I think human beings, mothers especially, are so much more resilient than society and culture give them credit for.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh whereby we don't give ourselves enough credit for what we are surviving.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I guess in my roundabout, like I, you know, I'm very long-winded in my my answers.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's beautiful.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I I stand for I want to be proof um to people, uh, but especially women, that it is that things don't necessarily always happen for a reason, but that doesn't mean we can't derive purpose from them.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: So beautifully said.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're actually bringing up I'd love to dig a little deeper before we go back in time to talk about this word purpose.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, really, what are we even talking about?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because most, most of us are not going to find purpose in just being alive.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the majority of folks who listen to this podcast, certainly the majority of my clients, are pretty high achieving success-driven women.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And this idea of the purpose falls in just being here right now, in and of itself is not enough.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually think there's a ton, I know there's a ton of data and research on this, that if we don't have a sense of purpose in something bigger than ourselves, we will likely fall into some sort of emotional despair, depression, anxiety, often substance abuse, whatever that thing is.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so we really do know that this idea of purpose, or even some people may see this as a spiritual question.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not necessarily talking about religion, although, of course, there can be overlap, but just this sense of like, what am I on this planet for?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is my what is my role here?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: What will my quote unquote legacy be?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where am I serving something greater than myself?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're nodding.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to, it sounds like this also, but somebody asked the question like, what's your definition of purpose?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is it that?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is it something different?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And while you answer, I'm just gonna close my door, but I am listening to whatever you say.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, talk to me about your thoughts on this idea of purpose.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'm a words person, you know, I'm a I'm an author.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so um the first thing I do, and I'm gonna do it because I right now, because I want to make sure that I don't like get it wrong.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: But the first thing I ever do when I'm curious about the definition of something is I look up the def I want to know the definition.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So like go in, which I've looked up many times and I should have the definition memorized, but um, I want to make sure I get it.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: But you're not perfect, so you don't.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not very far from.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um okay, so the definition of purpose.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, come on.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And like you know, I'm very much of the mindset that you do you, and I'm gonna do me.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if you feel like your purpose is to like be a mother, I'm not going to put a just in front of that because rock on.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we all know those moms, right?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're just like they're just killing it, and and and I no longer feel like insecure or jealous because I know that that isn't my sole purpose, is to to to be a mother.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I believe that's part of my purpose.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, I just want to be so explicitly clear.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't want to come across as like preachy or you know, you have to do it this, you know, like I'm very much like everybody has to find their own truth here.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I like so resonate a lot of the research I've been doing for this next book.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Also, just I mean, it just you know statistic after statistic shows that when we can pull ourselves outside and when we when we stop ruminating and um focusing on our pain, and we if we can move our gaze and our attention to something outside of ourselves, like um in service, uh something meaningful, um, something that we can possibly get one foot out of bed in the morning, then our mental health and our our healing is going to be expedited.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and I have found that to be so true for me.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and that has looked like building my publishing company, SoulSpeak Press.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we've worked with hundreds of women to help them get their survivor stories out into the world.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's it's looked like sharing my story.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people ask me all the time, like I part of what I spend a lot a lot of my time doing is traveling around the country keynoting and and telling my story.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And people are like, gosh, how do you do that?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like time after time do you compartmentalize and you have to tell your trauma, your life's biggest trauma in front of like thousands of people.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and and for me, I just derive so much purpose from that because my prayer is always before I I get on a coaching call or before I step on stage, like please let this connect with one person.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Please let them know that whatever they're going through, there's always hope.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Please, like always.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's always available to us.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that purpose can be reborn in the aftermath of your life completely falling apart and blowing up.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, chills.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's inspiring.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I, and I think, you know, I'm gonna, I think what I I just made a note because I want to circle back to this uh invitation to find purpose at the end of this conversation for folks who are listening to this and being like, wait, I whether they're a stay-at-home mom or a, you know, CEO or something in between, to just there are people on both ends of the spectrum who are probably listening to this and thinking, I don't, I don't feel like I'm living my perfect purpose.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I do want to circle back at the end to that word.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: But this sounds like a great time to go back in time, to transition for a moment.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we could spend the entire next part of this podcast talking about your story.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so we won't do that because I want to actually talk about your mothering journey as well.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: But can you take us back?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell your story to our listeners?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: You and I have already talked.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: I may ask some new questions because I'm continuing to learn about you and your life as well.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: But from when you, you know, you've told the story a million times, but bring us, catch us up.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: What happened for you?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again, it goes back to purpose.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, it's just like the most perfect conversation to be having right now.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I, you know, I'm a teacher by profession.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have always the I I grew up in the church, you know, I grew up in the Midwest, like conservative, like, you know, but there was also this like this, this um this idea or this like belief, right, that was instilled in me that to whom much is given, much is required.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so uh teaching, I I'm a teacher um by nature, and and so that just felt like such a natural progression.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I've always taken the scenic route in life, I like to say, which means it took me a really long time to get through college, but you know, once I once I did, um I knew that I wanted to teach abroad.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up getting a student teaching position in Nairobi, Kenya at an international school.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was a great fit for me.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: I loved it.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: They offered me a position to go teach fourth grade, and it was awesome, and I loved it.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, two months into my teaching contract, I meet this cute guy, this Swedish guy.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'd never met anybody from Sweden.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we met in a trashy nightclub one night, and I thought his name was Oric the whole time because I that seemed Swedish to me.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Turns out his name is Eric.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we just celebrated our 16th wedding anniversary uh days ago.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, he he was, I remember my dad giving me, I was like in my mid-20s, like later 20s, and um telling me, like, if you want a life partner who shares your same values and your purpose and your mission, then just go out and do it, and surely someone will come across your path.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's exactly what happened.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he was working for an NGO, a Swedish NGO.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: He's a like a human rights lawyer equivalent, essentially.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and we we did it was fast, and we fell in love and we got married a year and a half later, and his organization moved him up to Somalia, the northern part of Somalia.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't want to have a long-distance marriage, and I was burned out from teaching.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I needed a break and do something different.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I moved up to Hargeesa with him, and it was fun.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was I was teaching English in our dining room to Ethiopian refugees, and then I was working for the Ministry of Education and doing work for the UN.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I finally landed a position uh with an international NGO, the Danish D-mining group, as their regional education advisor.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I I traveled all over East Africa, South Sudan, northern Uganda.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was going into like really um like kind of desolate places, very remote, um just spending time with people groups who had been through I can't even fathom you know, civil war, the things that they'd survived.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And our organization, what we did was um like grassroots, we demined areas so that they could be inhabitable.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the groups that people we worked with were nomadic and the the the village, the outlaying uh areas around their villages, they couldn't move through because they were still littered with landmines and UXOs and IEDs and things from civil war, even 10, 15 years later.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's such a waste of resources, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're like talking about some of these places who have um limited resources, water resources, and and there's a lot of instability and uh in the infrastructure and education and health and all of these things because they can't move freely, because you know, all we need is someone with the technical expertise to go in and and remove them.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what we did.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: I did not do demining.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: I um created all the education materials that we then uh trained local staffs to go out into the the villages and say, like, you know, if you see something shiny, don't pick it up because it'll explode.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Don't stockpile it.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we'd go into homes where they had 15 IEDs underneath their tape kitchen table because they they thought that they were worth money.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't know what they were.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it was stuff like that.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so uh October 2011, I was called to go do a uh training in the southern part of Somalia, which I felt really hesitant about because that was not a great place to be in, right?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: I and again, I've traveled all over East Africa alone.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, I've been in Africa for about eight years at this point.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I know the area.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: This did not feel good for me.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh canceled it twice.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the third time we we planned this training, I called my colleague up, my counterpart down there, who was based down there and said, I don't feel good about this.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he basically was like, look, if you're not gonna get down here and do your job, like we'll find somebody else who will.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these jobs are in high demand, they're really competitive.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was really lucky.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's not everybody's dream to like, you know, work for a D mining group in in Somalia, but like I loved it.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I really felt like I was serving a purpose bigger than myself.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and the fact that Eric and I both had work in the same, you know, the same area because so many couples were like living in separate continents, and we just felt really lucky and we were doing meaningful work that was helping.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I these scared me, you know.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I was working in this environment with like ex-military, like a lot of men.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm one of the only women working there.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I was also kind of like a loose canon because I'm this like like outgoing American who's very creative teacher, you know, no one really knew what to do with me.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I scared me.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, you know, what's the worst that can happen?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna just to press a pause button, I'm gonna come back to this because there's a really that this is an important moment.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you talk about this moment, but for us to also talk about with respect to intuition and then what happens.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: When we can be convinced to not trust our intuition.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's really juicy topic.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll circle back to that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, that's my biggest life lesson.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not sure if I believe in like multiple lives or how all that works, but if it like this in this lifetime was the lesson for me to learn, and boy, did I learn it, right?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: About intuition.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I go, we have this three-day training.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, two days are in the north office where we were actually staying on the compound.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that wasn't what I was worried about because uh I knew that I was most vulnerable when I was in transit.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what I was worried about was that third day because we were leaving the the we had two separate field offices.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I won't get too in the weeds on this.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: If people are interested, they can go read impossible odds and it breaks it all down.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: But basically, we had to move over this green line, this like this, this uh it was an invisible uh line that divided two parts of the town because they were governed by opposing clans.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so we had separate staff and a separate office in the south.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what I was really worried about was getting into the south uh part of Alkyo because it was like a 20-minute ride in a convoy.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: We were in a convoy of armed vehicles.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: We got, you know, we always traveled with armed guards.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was very used to that.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: We get to the south office without a hitch, everything's great.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: We do the training.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: My, you know, my staff's fun.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's, you know, we're introducing material, it's going great.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, about three o'clock in the afternoon, it's time to go back to the North Office.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh, yeah, home free.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I've got, I'm gonna get back there.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get a workout in before dinner, like I'm gonna get my stuff packed up because I'm leaving really early the next morning, get back to Hargisa.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Eric's in another uh town in the middle of Somalia, you know, doing trainings.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, can't wait like for the weekend, right?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so um the the we're waiting for these the convoy to come and pick us back up, and it's taking longer than it should.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: But again, this is like, you know, this is Somalia, like somebody makes things.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Africa time.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Ole pole, uh, which is squagili.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: But um, so I'm not really thinking much about it.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Finally, the convoy comes in.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my call, my colleague Paul and I, we get in the middle vehicle.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Again, we've got arm guards in the front arm guards, and everybody's, you know, all of our vehicles are always being driven.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: We weren't really allowed to drive.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I realized I didn't recognize the driver.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't the same driver from the morning, but I didn't really think much about that either.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then we drive uh through the gates of the compound, and we're maybe like five, 10 minutes into our drive through Galcayo, which, you know, there's people everywhere.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's like goats running across the road.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's dogs, there's kids kicking, like they're not, they make their own footballs out of like trash bags that they roll and make into balls.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, it's just like very, very crowded, lots of like chaos, lots of life and energy.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then suddenly we're cut off um on the right side by another vehicle.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it had been raining, it was a razy rainy season, and mud was splashes up all over our windshield, and we can't see out the windshield anymore.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I just remember I was looking at my phone, like sending an email, and I looked up and I said, What a jerk! Who drives like that?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then it sounds like we're being surrounded um by men who are yelling in Somali, and then somebody hits the the hood of the vehicle with the butt of an AK-47.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: And my the a security advisor, a guy named Abdirizak, is sitting next to me on my right side and his door is pulled open, and there is a very angry man wearing a police uniform with an AK standing there, and he pulls Abdirizak out of the car and slams him down onto the ground and then gets in and puts the gun to my head and starts screaming at the driver to drive.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we do that for, I mean, we drive for hours out into the middle of the desert.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, at some points I thought the car was gonna flip because he was driving so fast.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Paul's in the front seat begging him to slow down, like you're gonna kill us.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um finally we stop and we had stopped several times on this route to wherever they were taking us.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they would have us like get into other convoys of vehicles, or we they would stop and then other people would get into the back.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they had like five armed men crammed into the the like the cargo part of the land cruiser.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: At one point I I turned around because I heard a high-pitched voice talking behind me, and it was this small child.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was he looked like he was like nine or ten years old.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: He was wearing chains of ammunition, the AK was bigger than him, and you know, it was such an irony.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like I kind of got to know him over the course of of the time.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he was, you know, the epitome of a child soldier, which is really what had like drawn me to Africa in the first place, is the plight of child soldier.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And here I am, like face to face with one.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so basically what they did was just they just drove us deeper out to the desert, and then they forced us out of the land cruisers and to participate in what I I still call a mock execution because they very much presented as if they had the intention of executing us out in the desert.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and to the point where they had us down on our knees, like hands behind our backs.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm thinking like, like it's interesting because I don't know, like I've always wondered, like, what are my like what's it gonna be like to die?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like what, like what what are my final moments gonna be like?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um I had totally like that life flashing before your eyes kind of experience that they talk about.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then it was just this like saying goodbye to to my husband and my my father and my siblings, and my mom had died the year before.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I very much felt like this, like, you know, connected to her in those moments of like, okay, you've been through this in a different way.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she died very suddenly and very tragically.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, help me through this, like help me transition through this because I don't know how I don't know how to do this.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the other thought that I kept thinking as I was like marching basically to my own what I believed to be my own death was like, I'm 31.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was 31 at the time, like, and I I was like so consumed with my purpose that I didn't actually like I didn't get the chance to become a mother.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that is something that I knew that I wanted to experience.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and here I am, like, wow, I just didn't get enough time.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and and I just don't understand why this is all happening.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and obviously they didn't execute me because I'm sitting here having this conversation.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it was this it was the most terrifying moment of my entire life thus far.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um then I that was really like what started 93 days of hell for me.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: So so I want to pause for a moment.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know I am feeling in my body what I'm imagining a lot of our listeners are feeling, which is tension and tightness.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I am too.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a lot of emotion.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I I guess I am curious to know what it's like for you.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: You you for a living, you tell this story.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: You wrote a book, you well, we'll talk about your book, but you you get on stages, you you talk about surviving and five finding purpose through trauma.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what is it like for you, even just in this moment, to be telling this story?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's easier than it used to be.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I am also committed to um not compartmentalizing and disassociating when I tell it because I'm not like that's a commitment I've made to myself and to you uh in sharing your time and your audience with me and as well as you know anybody I'm telling the story to.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I have learned over the years that I need a ton of recovery time.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I just need to, I need to rest, I need to sleep.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Usually on the days when I have I do speak about this.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe not so much like podcasting.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'll probably need to go for a walk or maybe take a short nap um later.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'll go to bed at like seven o'clock at night because um my brain and my body and my heart need to rest after I do it.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't an episode where we necessarily are here to talk about self-care, but I do want to just uh highlight this for our listeners, right?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you do have a purpose in life that you're so committed to, um, whatever it is, the the self-resourcing, the slowing down, the repair, the both and of it all is so important.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really grateful, Jessica, that you just even acknowledge that in this small moment because it is um profoundly important when we're living purpose-driven lives, whatever that purpose is.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: So um thank you for that piece.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you spent 90 plus days, right, in captivity.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um we don't have the time that that deserves uh to really go into.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess I am curious to know if you could talk a little bit with us about what kept you motivated during that time, right?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: How easy it is when we are in a, you know, a um, I was gonna, I was gonna say a real life version of that, although of course this was your real life.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, but but like, you know, there are many of us who who can feel like we're in captivity, right?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: If we even, and I want to honor sort of the both end of this, like we're talking about a big capital, capital T trauma that you went through, right?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and there are people who are listening to this who may be able to relate to some of these feelings, like of I feel like I'm gonna die or I can't survive this, or I'm, you know, my I I feel lost and I feel helpless and hopeless.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for the purpose of this podcast, we're wanting to make sure that we all understand that the human expression of emotion is the same, whether it's a capital T trauma, like we have a machine gun to our head or something else.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so that our listeners can really see themselves in this process that you're describing in one way or another.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: But again, back to the question, what kept you motivated?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like it would be very easy in that situation to kind of give up hope, right?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're how terrifying.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um can you give us just a little bit of insight into what though that what those days were like for you when you were in captivity?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'd love to hear a little bit about your your um release and and then I want to jump into the mothering piece.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um I always say that when I wasn't being terrorized, being a hostage is just like really boring.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, um when they left me alone, then I was just sitting under a tree, you know, and I didn't have like books to read, I didn't have a pen and paper to record.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, if I'd had a notebook, I mean I probably could have written like 16 books, you know.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: I I like I don't know.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like the kind of person I have learned very much about myself that uh through the this whole ordeal.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm very I've learned that I'm very resourceful.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and so I think there was a sense of responsibility that I felt um to get back to my family.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they just lost my we've all we all just lost my mom.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the oldest of three siblings.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I was kind of like the de facto matriarch now.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt like the sense of responsibility to get back to them.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can't be another loss for them.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was a purpose.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was purpose.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: The oldest, you know, the oldest sibling, the oldest girl, like all the things they say on social media about those traits, like I'm like, I can check all those boxes, but you know, hey, whatever it takes, right, to get through something like that.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um the other thing that I and I don't really know how I knew to do this, other than I think if you interview like an uh like a control group of former hostages and detainees, we probably all do something similar because I do think it's a very human response when you are in a situation like this.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I discovered that there is a difference between an option and a choice.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me more about that.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: I until then use those two words and those concepts interchangeably without making a distinction in my life between them.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: I would say, you know, say, well, I didn't have any options or I didn't have any choices.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what I've come to understand is that options are fixed oftentimes.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're given to us by the powers that be, by the universe, however you want to look at it, or your boss or you know, whatever.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um your doctor, uh uh, but within those, there are a there are a plethora of options or uh choices um within those options.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, I I was able to articulate that I had three options while I was sitting out there.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um option number one was to escape, and people will ask me that all the time.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And why didn't you escape?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, like I'm surrounded by, you know, and and even if I there was one morning where I I had an opportunity, I could have, but where was I gonna go?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know where I was.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: The desert is hot, I couldn't carry enough water.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: You will never meet a more directionally challenged person than me.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I couldn't tell you what's north, what's south.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: I finally figured out with the sun that I could tell, like, you know, directions, but that took me like half of the captivity.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um it just it wasn't, it wasn't a good choice, right?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my second option was to kill myself.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and and I I I struggle with how to articulate this because I I can cognitively like conceptualize that people can be in so much pain that they don't want to live.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: But for me in that time and space, I learned that facing death in that way made me understand how much I actually did want to live.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, you know, I was I didn't not want to live before, but um, I do think it is very primal for us to want to figure out how to survive.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I think that when people are in so much mental uh distress or physical distress and they just can't take it anymore, um that that's what I was scared of, right?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like it and so I I just asked, like my prayer was like, please just help me keep my keep my mind, like stay sane, right?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what I was the most terrified about.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so then my third option that I was able to determine was like the most viable and the least attractive, I guess, was just to just sit there and wait it out.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Cause like, what else was I really going to do?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: But then I was like looking around one morning.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: I got up, I did my yoga sequence underneath the tree, and I sat down at the base of this tree, and I'd lost like probably 30 pounds at this point.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like incredibly skinny.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I'm sitting in a cross-leg position at the base of this tree, and I had this like epiphany, like this, you know, total light bulb moment where I remembered the story of the Buddha and that he reached enlightenment while he was sitting at the base of the tree.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really know much about Buddha because I grew up in the Christian tradition.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, well, that's that's interesting.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: So then I started thinking about like my own, my own cultural upbringing of, you know, Jesus.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I remembered the story that I learned in Sunday school about him walking through the desert for 40 days and 40 nights, like wrestling with his own humanity, right?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, you know, maybe this is my chance.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe this is this this is an opportunity.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I like to think of myself as someone who doesn't like to waste opportunities.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I I I do think that comes back to just being like this Gen Xer, like we're, you know, pretty resourceful women.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, okay, you know what?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: I've got some like I had some stuff to work through here.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my mom and I like we had a pretty dysfunctional relationship.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um if like when I again, when I wasn't being tortured, I was largely left alone.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And when was I gonna have this time again to just sit here and like go through it all?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I did.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: I went back to like my first memory, four years old with my mom.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: She took me to so see Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: I and I like got so in, like I've never been able to do this since, but I got so into reliving those memories that I could almost taste like the salt from the popcorn.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like I could feel her skin when I touched her arm.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: I could hear the sound of her laughter, and I just relived this life.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and and, you know, I'd I'd been through a divorce when I was really young and I went through that whole thing.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what, you know, what was my responsibility and what was his?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: And oh my God, like, yeah, his mom really was as bad as I thought she was, you know, like all of this stuff.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I like even got I got so into it, like from a physical perspective that I like took a stick and I dug a hole in the sand next to me, and I like physically like went through these rituals where I buried grudges.
• 40:40
  unknown: Oh my gosh.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I wept alone on this mat under this tree out in the middle of the desert and asked for forgiveness because I had been wrong in a lot of ways.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I really consider myself so fortunate because how many people get to know themselves and get to know themselves like that?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I have this very like visual image of a version of myself, like the next version, the the the more healed version.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we ever like reach total wholeness or like healing.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's just like we're gonna keep going until we're not, but like a maybe another another version, a more healed version of myself coming to me on that mat and taking my hand and like walking me away from that captivity because what I have come to understand um is that I am so completely in charge of what goes on in my head and what's going on in my mind.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Jessica, I'm sitting here absorbing what you're saying.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, I I literally uh I feel a little choked up um for so many reasons, but I think most profoundly I'm noticing a few things about this story.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Number one is that I think this is worth noting this idea of taking care of yourself.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it preceded being in captivity and sitting under a tree, but you just told us that you were practicing yoga while you were in captivity.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I really want to highlight that just because it's so easy when we're under a lot of stress to refrain from asking ourselves the hard questions about what do I need to be okay in this situation?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if you go back to this choice versus option, I love that, by the way.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've never heard that described that way.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm profoundly interested as I hear you talk about that, about those two differences.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: But you were alive, you were, you were being tortured, you were in captivity, you were the in the midst of the most immense uncertainty and unpredictability that any of us can imagine.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: There was very little control that you had over your destiny in those moments, but yet you had choice.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yet you had control to this point.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like how you were gonna spend your time between these periods of time where you're being tortured.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, many of us, as we hear that, might be thinking, how did she even think to do yoga under a tree when she didn't know when the next time she was going to be tortured was?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: You could either be living in anticipation of the next time of being tortured, which I am sure and no doubt you had plenty of moments of, or you could be sitting there thinking, how am I going to use this time to care for myself?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: To as my I mean, I can't even even say it almost sounds like such a bizarre.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: How can I make this experience my ally, right?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: How can I actually learn?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: From it.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: How can I learn from it?
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you did.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's very moving.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have I mean, isn't that the whole point?
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I am a firm believer that until we learn this thing that you learned under that tree, which is that we choose.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: We have the choice of how to feel in our life.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: Until we learn that, we will feel less than.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: We will feel like not enough.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: We will be scrambling to try to control those things outside of us.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you, in many ways, were kind of you know given this option.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what are you gonna do?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're either gonna try to run away, which might get you killed, or you can kill yourself, or you can find a way to survive this and be better for it.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I could like articulate it that way.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think of course in in that that timing in in that period, I was I was following again.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just think human beings were like just really incredible.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we if we sit and listen and and and get in tune with like the cues, like I was just following the cues that felt right in terms of like I just didn't want to go insane.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: But that I think is the point, right?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: So when there's so much big stuff outside of our control that can that can that we can give our energy to, right?
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Which of course is ultimately what's gonna paralyze us because it's too big.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or we can come back to what's right in front of us.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: I can do my yoga, I can sit under this tree, I can, you know, forgive myself, I can breathe, I can come back to the kind of most simple things to tackle amidst all this shit that I have no control over that's too big for me.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's the little choices we make that set us free, that ultimately helped you both survive this and ultimately helped set you free from the confines and burden of the fear of the unpredictability, of the uncertainty.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is that accurate for you?
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, wow, I wish I could say it that way.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I think the other thing that I'd like to try to get across is like we like I was very fearful of my mind.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: And also, but what I found is that my my mind is a safe place.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Can you say more about that?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: And what what what how'd you find that?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: What did what do you mean by that?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: Just through all of the things that you just described, you know, like I in a the in an environment that was absolutely the least safe I could possibly be, um, the least comforting, um I found I I found peace and I found safety inside myself.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you you can call it whatever, your spirit, your mind, however.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's all, you know, for me it was all the same in that place.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I I have never really felt more free.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: Which is such a it's such a a weird juxtaposition.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it is the it is the point, right?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's certainly a point of my work.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm gonna dare to say I was gonna say most of our listeners will never end up in this kind of captivity.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna say probably none of our listeners will ever end up in this kind of captivity, and yet many of them are captives in their mind.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, right.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that is a really important thing for us to walk away from this conversation with is that we can quote unquote blame the things outside of us for for keeping us trapped when really we're we are unintentionally doing that to ourselves.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I and we have to act look at that with compassion and not shame and blame because we're all humans.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: But this story is a beautiful example of what can happen when we can use our mind to our benefit to set us free versus to keep us trapped.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, and I think like it takes a lot of discipline and a lot of determination um in a commitment to maintain freedom.
• 48:29
  unknown: Yeah.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's easier to just like be held c hostage in our own heads.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because that's where we what that's what we're comfortable with.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's familiar.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't it that our monkey mind and our primitive lizard brain wants to keep us safe, right?
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: Keep us within those confines and those, however, you want whatever metaphor you want to use.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um certainly the trick is how can you free yourself when you are within the confines of your life?
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that's where it's the option versus the choice.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: You might have a child with special needs, and your life may feel so restrictive and so controlled, and like you have no choices.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm just speaking from my truth.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what your audience is trying to survive right now, or what they have survived, or what they will, but I do know none of us escapes the human experience unscathed, that's for sure.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: And for like the whole point is to figure out how to work yourself free.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm noticing that it's 11 o'clock.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: We have so much we haven't covered.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: I have a hard stop in about 10 minutes, Jessica.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm wondering if you're open to like finishing this part of the story and then maybe coming back to talk about mothering.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is that possible for you?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: Are we gonna find the time to do that?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but we can try.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's let's see, let's keep going for a little bit.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: This has been so incredible.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: But and and it's fine if we don't spend a whole lot of time in this mothering part.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um we can get there.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the everybody wants to know how well, how'd you get out?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's try give us, give us, give us the short version of the how how you got out of captivity.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm gonna tie this into motherhood and we'll see what we can do in the next 15 minutes.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, largely, uh, you know, I am the luckiest girl in the world.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I got a urinary tract infection uh that moved into a kidney infection.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I we had a series of um six proof of life calls with our like family negotiator communicator, which unbeknownst to me was being relayed to the FBI um and then was working its way all the way up the chain of the US command up to President Obama.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so um when they found out that I had a kidney infection, my doctor in Nairobi, and his advice was that they had two weeks before I was dead and I would die of sepsis out there.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that set the wheels in motion for a military intervention.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's are certain protocols that have to be um followed and I guess boxes that have to be checked in order for a military intervention to take place.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea that that was even like a thing.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I never did I sit there and think, wow, I wish you know their Marines would come in and rescue me.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like that just I'm I'm an aid worker.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: I figured the only way we were gonna get out is if the ransom was paid um and they wanted$45 million.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I figured that was gonna take a while.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so January 25th, 2012, I went to bed.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: I use that term loosely, I laid down on a mat out in a field with a blanket, um, surrounded by nine of my kidnappers with guns that night.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I woke up a couple hours later because I was I had the need to be sick.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I got up off my mat.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: All of the the, they called themselves pirates, um, were asleep.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: They were passed out.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I took a small flashlight and I was flashing it so that they could see that I hadn't tried to escape.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I went to a bush, did what I need to do, came back, um, rolled myself up in my blanket, and I could hear something moving toward me as if something was walking through um the the grasses, like breaking grass, and I thought it was an animal or something until one of the pirates on my left stirred and he woke up and you could tell he was really afraid.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: He had his AK and he was screaming at everybody to wake up and then the night just erupted into automatic gunfire.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and all I could think was, oh, we're being kidnapped by another group.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, like I really, I'm really not gonna survive this because, like, even though this is a horrific situation, I'm so sick.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't imagine trying to, like, all of this is going through my mind.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't imagine trying to learn another group and what are they gonna do to me and are they gonna sell me?
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, all of this is going through my mind as they're dropping to the ground, they're being shot, they're they're dying.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then somebody grabs my arms and my legs and pulls the blanket away from my face, and I start like trying to fight back um to defend myself.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then um one of them uh starts talking to me and he has an American accent and he says, uh, he knows my name.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Jessica, we're the American military.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're safe now, and we're gonna take you home.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm just like, as you can imagine, overcome with complete shock.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: All I can say over and over again is we I don't understand you're American.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like I cannot wrap my brain around like how they found us out there in the middle of the desert.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: But he said, you know, we've been watching you for a very long time.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: We know how sick you've been.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, in the course of the, you know, 11, 12 years since this happened, I've been able to fill in a lot of blanks.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, uh the FBI, um, this was like a case that they weren't just monitoring, they were actively working.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh the SEALs, as soon as SEAL Team 6 uh was the group that rescued me as soon as uh they were given the order to come and get me.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: They've been practicing, they've been rehearsing for 93 days from the day that they heard that an American woman had been taken hostage.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there was no loss of life on our side.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I don't think like how do I talk about this day in and day out?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: I there if there had been loss of life on our side, that would have been a very different story for me.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I again, I'm an aid worker at heart, and so there is I've processed through a lot of trauma um care and and treatment, the loss of life on the other side, which is heavy to carry around.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um but essentially, you know, I I was the victim of a violent crime, and this is how they deal with victims.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and um I'm like I cannot articulate how lucky I am to be here alive and well.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: I wanna um encourage folks.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna have links in the show notes to your book, uh Impossible Odds.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna encourage folks to to read that book because I am certain that there's so much more uh to this story.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna sh and thank you for sharing.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I I um I am blown away, just like I'm sure our listeners are, um, by so many pieces.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I literally wish I had like four hours to talk with you.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to shift to your becoming a mother and spend the last 15 minutes together here, 10 or 15 minutes talking about that.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: I I do want to reflect on something that I heard you say that I think is a really important visual for us, which is that you had a child soldier in that car with you and you were speaking to your own mother around help me figure out how to survive this.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there is something really powerful in that here you are, Jessica, in the midst of this trauma, and you're being confronted with a child and you're reconnecting with your own mother.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think there's no way we can become mothers ourselves without reflecting on how we were raised and what we learned or wish we had learned or didn't learn from our own parents and how we think about and relate to children.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I just think it's a really interesting image that I am holding from your story of you being in the midst of these sort of in this generational, right?
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're feeling some maternalness towards this child.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: How could you not, even though you're not a mother yet at this point?
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a child here who is trapped in the system of fucked up shit, right?
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you're a daughter at the same time.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I and I think that comes up for most of us when we become mothers, where we're sort of navigating these two roles.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to note that.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, can you tell us again?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna ask us to just condense this a little bit so that we can not keep you here forever.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um what has it been like for you to become a mother?
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: And what has it been like for you to be mothering a child uh as you continue to heal from this intense trauma and have purpose in the world in helping other people move through their own traumas?
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: What has it been like for you to become a mother yourself in all of this?
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I could spend the next four hours talking about.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so interestingly, uh the thought, the the plot begins.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had a miscarriage in captivity.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was um pretty sure I was pregnant.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and my husband and I were trying um to start our family.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so about two weeks into captivity, I had an early miscarriage um that I didn't process because I was just relieved um because that would have just complicated.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just got through the physical uh pain and um just didn't think about it anymore.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so strangely, ironically enough, um three days after the rescue, I did get pregnant again, which is because I never menstruated again after the miscarriage.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it never occurred to me that I could get pregnant.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'd lost like 45 pounds.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, I mean, um it like just never crossed my mind.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh I was absolutely completely shocked.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um physically, I was sicker than I've ever been in my entire life and just threw up for eight months and definitely felt like I had been taken hostage again um inside my body.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: And what is going on like, you know, what is like first time prior, like literally I mean, just the anxiety.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm being hijacked, right?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, the PTSD.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I it was important for me to have my child uh in in Africa because that was my home.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I had him in Nairobi.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the postpartum depression um definitely uh in the anxiety, I think borderline psychosis.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: I had um trauma therapists, I was on medication, like I had as much support as I could get, and then it became clear that we needed to leave Africa, and so we relocated um in the US with a six-month-old, uh Swedish husband, no jobs, no like no social network, nothing.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, motherhood has been something that I have really felt like I needed to survive.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it has taken all of my strength and my resources to hold on to my sanity.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um like I've never experienced anything so exhausting.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I had a daughter two years later.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I, you know, I loved my I love my children to, I mean, of course we all do in our own ways, but it has stretched me and it has demanded from me to reach into the resources that I didn't even think I had to reach into when I was in captivity.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: So anybody who's struggling with motherhood right now and feels shame around that, oh my God, it is hard.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm so glad you're bringing this up because in many, I am imagining that it for many of us, we're hearing this story and we're thinking to ourselves, oh my gosh, after that, life must feel so easy.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you survive that, you can survive anything.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the reality of the real trauma of becoming a mother, I am gonna call it that.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a psychic trauma, it's a physical trauma, it's a social trauma.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot of stuff that we go through that is is traumatic.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I don't use that word lightly.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean literally, there's grief, there's loss, there's all kinds of stuff.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think it's really important that our listeners hear that, Jessica, that that, you know, it wasn't easy, breezy, lemon squeezy because you had been through this horrible thing that you uh were like so many, and most of our listeners found the transition to motherhood to be very challenging.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I would have people, other mothers, say to me, like, well, you should just be grateful.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you know how like lucky you are?
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I would just be standing there, like feeling so misunderstood, so isolated, so alone, so scared.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was like all of the lessons I had learned in captivity, I had to like relearn again.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: And only this time it involved like my tiny little baby.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of the stuff with my mom, and my mom is gone, and I don't have anybody to show me how to mother.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure she would have been, you know, she she had an what they called back then a nervous breakdown after my brother was born and was hospitalized multiple times.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_00: I became the primary caregiver, you know, again, oldest.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was like 11 when this happened, and I was convinced that that is like again, like it's always about the mind.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, surviving the kidnapping and not going insane through all of that.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm proud of my mental uh uh resilience.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: But to be honest, the the mental resilience that I'm most proud of is surviving motherhood.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my goodness.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: I've never been so scared in my life because now it's not just about me, it's about him and how bad am I gonna fuck him up?
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: And all I kept thinking is like, how do you go through something like that and then be a good mom afterwards?
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's not possible.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm genetically predisposed to lose my mind after having a baby because I watched my mom do all that.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's no way.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a therapist say to me, I mean, I'm like, I'm like shaking.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you know, six months pregnant.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I don't think I can do this.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: And she says to me, listen, Jess, you survived, you you made it through the kidnapping without losing your mind.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: I really believe you're gonna make it through this part of like this entrance into motherhood without losing your mind.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: And here's what I want.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: If anybody like listens to one thing I've said on this in this conversation, I want you to understand again, it comes down to choice.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I made one of the most important choices I have ever made in my life.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: I chose to believe her.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I held on to that as my truth because I had a I had a a clinical professional say to me, here's what I've seen, here's what I know, here's what I believe.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I chose to hold on to that and to believe her and to to say that to myself over and over again when I was like up in the middle of the night thinking I was gonna like just I don't, you know, I I was scared I was gonna drop him down the stairs.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was scared that the kidnappers were gonna come and take him.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I you you you name it, I was afraid of it.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was afraid I'd black out and like end up tying him to a tree the way I'd been tied to a like bonker stuff, which makes sense, right?
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I chose to believe her, and I came back to that truth over and over again, and now he's almost 13.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: My daughter's almost 11.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm so proud of them, and I'm so proud of what we've done because we we have survived.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you have, and we we and we're thriving now.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it is hard fought.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, don't ever let anybody make you feel ashamed that if it feels so hard and you feel like you just don't have the strength to move through it, that there's something wrong with you because it's really, really hard.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_00: But again, like that's just just what it means to be human.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like anybody who walks around acting like it's easy to be a human being is just lying.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: I find it incredibly powerful that we've been talking for.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know, an hour and you've told these incredible stories of fear and uncertainty and unpredictability, and you haven't shed one tear until you've been talking about motherhood.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I'm choked up.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think that for most of us, I was gonna say all of us, but that's not fair.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: For most of us, there's nothing more challenging in that and important than this role.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we can be doing incredibly important things out in the world, but there is a uh there is just something undescribable about being a mother.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is in many ways a beautiful place for us to wrap up.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_00: Although of course we could keep talking but I am I just want to honor that that the emotion comes now right always always when it comes to my kids always yeah that is that is the most important part of my story.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and the fact that you can so beautifully and articulately bring us through this really gut-wrenching part of your life part of your history and get us to this point where you are a mother of two children having gone through sounds like very tricky postpartum anxiety, depression, all of the above.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: And to have a situation where you have a 13 year old and 11 year old and you can acknowledge that we are thriving.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we are thriving does not mean we are feeling good all the time.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's the other thing I want to be clear.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely thriving does not mean everything is good all the time and we're happy all the time.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: It means that we I mean it means that we trust we're okay.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what I'd like to say that genuine internal trust you chose to believe someone you also had someone believe in you.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is also really important.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if there's anyone listening who is just like I don't know what my purpose is and I'm feeling lost and maybe I'm struggling with depression and anxiety or maybe I'm just feeling I'm floating find a person who can believe in you because that it's that two-way streak.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's someone believed in you and you chose to believe them.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that so important.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: Jessica where can our listeners find more of you?
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know uh Instagram Jessica CB Cannon um if you are interested in sharing your story uh SoulSpeak Press I'm on LinkedIn everything's under my name um I'd love to connect so please reach out uh I do respond but to you know to my DMs myself no one's doing that for me so um I'd love to connect I have so many takeaways from this time with you I am sure our listeners do as well I will add in the show notes the big ones that I think are worth kind of putting pins in because again I wish we had another hour so I could circle back to some things.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you've left us with some really important places to reflect to ask ourselves important questions to uh find compassion for ourselves to find curiosity to ask ourselves what do we choose what are we currently choosing and where do we want to make different choices and coming I love the idea of like what are my options like really what are my options that sounds like such nice boundaries for us to really feel good to know this podcast is resonating with you but honestly the bigger reason I ask is because the more subscriptions ratings and reviews the podcast receives the more accessible it becomes to mothers who may really need this kind of support and conversation.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: And as we all know motherhood was never meant to be done alone but it really does take a village to raise a mind too thank you for helping us grow this community one conversation at a time.