Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / On Independence Day: Religion, Democracy, and the Promise of America at 250 -Rabbi Michael Holzman
Transcript
- Orly Erez Likhovski: Anishinā. I hope you enjoyed it. Noam Z: Okay, let me zoom out a little Orly Erez Likhovski: See. Noam Z: But why don't you use your ears? Orly Erez Likhovski: Because once this has worked, I'm not doing anything, I'm changing anything because I'm afraid it will be... And you well, right? Noam Z: So, okay, okay, that's it. Orly Erez Likhovski: I a lot of problems with I know, I I do it without a connection online, without this, it's just that my mind I don't understand the story. Noam Z: I'm not sure it's the right decision... Orly Erez Likhovski: I can do it, but I'm afraid that it's... I don't have the tools here. I to try and see how it but it won't work. Noam Z: You don't make a cable you do it on wifi? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes, that's what I once before, I worked with Akavis. We cooked together times. That's caught us. Yes. Yes, yes. I have but I... Half of the it's okay. I I don't know, I'm... I hope so. Wait, so what in terms of the next? Noam Z: I know. It's interesting. I don't know. I don't understand what you're ⁓ base AR of the KAKAL. This is next week, on Monday. Orly Erez Likhovski: Ah, right, it's a week ago, so it's week ago, right, right. Ah, need to prepare this, okay. Wait, didn't him... Ah, yes, sent him... We sent him the link, from Eyal. Right, it says here, Zoom needs to a link to Eyal and Josh. Wait a I'm not sure if we sent it Eyal, you just need to check it out. Noam Z: So is it the barn was Shani. ⁓ ⁓ yes, I think. Orly Erez Likhovski: and then a week after that we wanted to do it with Shani and a week after that right, in 2019. Yes, we at 19 that I with... ⁓ that was created in 1921 in Israel. Noam Z: Yeah, it's it's bit complicated, but it's possible. Orly Erez Likhovski: Nice. Noam Z: Do you to tell us what was the Knesset Orly Erez Likhovski: I will say that we are here. Joseph, I'll show you in a sec. Bye! ⁓ bye. Josh Weinberg: Wow, sorry, it just didn't connect. Noam Z: Not yet, try again. Josh Weinberg: turn. Orly Erez Likhovski: That's what talking about. Josh Weinberg: So name. you Noam Z: No, we can't hear you. Orly Erez Likhovski: the belly guy. Noam Z: It looks like the internet connection is terrible. It's like your uploading is at like 50%. Yeah, I think that might be the best plan. don't know, like what internet are you on? Josh Weinberg: Okay. that clear? Orly Erez Likhovski: can. Josh Weinberg: Okay, see you later. Orly Erez Likhovski: So, so many. and there. ⁓ ⁓ F4? Do you to come to Israel? Okay, we did the week and we have the yal. A week later we wanted the shoni. Josh Weinberg: So that's it then. Okay. Okay. Orly Erez Likhovski: Do want to talk to me the disease? Josh Weinberg: Yes, yes, I will the video later today. Orly Erez Likhovski: Okay, so we started with the Israel on 19, on the first day. Ariel invited six young people, not the entire group. Noam Z: He a of six guys who are the media team and he thinks it will be cool that they will be with you and not the whole team. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you. Noam Z: She's just like, cause I... Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ and I understand what their is? Noam Z: They the team of the media, they do all social media of the In the he said, what's guys? Orly Erez Likhovski: Amen. Okay, I'm guessing that 6 people is a lot of it's not too much. Noam Z: So that's I don't think you can have a with six people. If you ask them questions, I don't know. I think need to understand it. It's a bit complicated. Orly Erez Likhovski: Just my thumbnail? Josh Weinberg: In everyone is bit of circle, everyone is circle, everyone is a circle, it's another Orly Erez Likhovski: No, we say that we want less. The is what the goal? Because the we a conversation with Israelis. And now it will only in the States. So maybe it is to ask more questions that are in the States. That they would us. Josh Weinberg: Okay. Okay? It needs be helped. Sometimes there are people who speak more and speak less. Orly Erez Likhovski: You're very interesting. Noam Z: Josh, we're sure that Michael's like good with the scheduling and with the link and so, all right. Orly Erez Likhovski: Okay. links. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, he had something up until nine, I think. then he'll be out. Can you hear me okay? Okay. Okay. Good. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Hi Mike. Josh Weinberg: I'm a dog was a kid, you know. Orly Erez Likhovski: I'm Michael. Michael Holzman: Hello, Orly. Shalom, it's nice to meet you, Orly. Josh, it's good to see you again. Noam, nice to meet you. Josh Weinberg: Shalom, Rabbi Holtzman. Orly Erez Likhovski: Nice to meet you. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, have you guys not met? You've never met Orly before? Orly Erez Likhovski: I'm not sure, probably not. Probably not. So it's nice to thank you. Josh Weinberg: Okay, okay. Well, ⁓ hey, here it is right now. ⁓ The grand meeting. It's good. Michael, I don't know if you had a chance to see, I know you had an earlier meeting, but Nom sent you sort of the flow and the script of the session. ⁓ Okay. It's sort of the stuff that we talked about, but. Michael Holzman: Here it is. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Michael Holzman: Yeah, I'm trying to open there it is. Okay. Flow and script. Orly Erez Likhovski: I've changed it a bit. It's not going to be exactly the same, but that sort gives you the picture. Josh Weinberg: Right. Michael Holzman: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, sure, sure. Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ And, Noam, you're hearing Michael. Josh Weinberg: And Michael, we forgot to tell you that this is ⁓ in Hebrew, this podcast. I'm just kidding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stop. Yeah, yeah. Michael Holzman: Bye bye. Le Hitraot. My Hebrew is embarrass my Hebrew is embarrassing. It's embarrassing. Really embarrassing. Noam Z: Hehehehehe Orly Erez Likhovski: Nah, she's joking. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: It's all good. Yeah. Michael Holzman: But you know, if you want me to accidentally break into Spanish halfway through, I we can try Hebrew because that's what happens. What that's what happens when I speak Hebrew is is my my Spanish comes out. Orly Erez Likhovski: you Josh Weinberg: That is interesting, ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so I think we're going to talk something around like 45, 50 minutes, something like that probably. And since this is recorded and then edited by the talented Noam, we can do whatever you want, stop, say things again, ask us stuff to clarify things, like whatever you need. What else? Noam, Josh, Michael, if you have any questions. Michael Holzman: Okay. Noam Z: I think like the... Josh Weinberg: I think that's, yeah. Michael Holzman: ⁓ one question. No ⁓ Noah, this is the this is the platform that keeps like uploading after we're done. I have to like wait a few minutes. Okay. So like the fact that Josh is fuzzy, I don't have to worry about that. That like, you know, it just okay. Cool. Orly Erez Likhovski: Right, Yes, yes. Noam Z: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like one of those things you like trust it until whatever it usually works out. Okay This is one of the best the more smooth beginnings that we've had to session. But yeah, it's intentional ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Okay, Josh you wanna- Noam Z: I think like from my end, I would just say like the chances are that what was sent in the outline is not what's actually going to happen in the conversation, but it is kind of like where as a team, we're like thinking beforehand and you know, like go with the conversation. And it's like, if you want to jump ahead and answer one of the questions before it's asked, that works or, know, like that kind of stuff. But don't be like, saw that you were going to ask me, it's definitely going to come up because and that. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. And and also Michael if right. ⁓ and Michael, if you feel like ⁓ you're like you can always say ⁓ one thing I'd like to also bring up or this has you know been particularly meaningful to me, ⁓ you know, do that. And also if you have like other thoughts about, you know, Israel in the relationship as well. I mean that that's that's where we want to go to that too, as you can see in the ⁓ in the outline. ⁓ but I think Noam Z: And yeah, I'm just in the background. I'm not here. Josh Weinberg: I think we have plenty to talk about and just, you know, from our conversation on Friday, like, you know, I I love how you present it, so it'll be it'll be good. Noam Z: And it's supposed to be released on July 2nd, like this Thursday, which I guess is two days before July 4th. I'm like not able to feel that it's like July right now at all in America. But that is like the feeling of the American side of the episode. And know, Orly is like after a crazy day in the Knesset, which is definitely going to come up. So like I feel like we're in totally different universes here. Josh Weinberg: I don't know Yeah. Noam Z: which is kind of the idea of the podcast. Michael Holzman: What what in particular is happening in the Knesset this week? Orly Erez Likhovski: So we'll talk about it soon. We'll chat, me and Josh. Me and Josh will start the big. Noam Z: That'll be how they start the episode. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Michael Holzman: Okay, let's get started. I I do have a hard stop at ten o'clock, so let's get going. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So did it. Okay. Orly Erez Likhovski: Okay. ⁓ Welcome back the Pluralist Podcast from both sides of the ocean. I'm Orly Erez-Likhovski Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center. Josh Weinberg: And I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg, Vice President for Israel and Reform Zionism at the URJ and the director of ARZA ⁓ Orly, it's great to be with you. And today we are going to talk about America. We're leading up to July 4th, which is the 200th anniversary of these United States of America. And it's both a historical milestone and a national celebration. And these are the questions that we want to ask. What are we celebrating exactly? And what is the milestone that we're marking right now? And specifically for us, we want to ask what does it mean for people of faith, for Jews, to think about their position in America after these 250 years? What does it mean to help to preserve democracy? And to do that, to help us think about, we are so honored that we are joined today by Rabbi Michael Holtzman, founder of Faith 250. ⁓ and we're gonna share in a minute just about Rabbi Holtzman and ⁓ bring him into the conversation. But ⁓ Just Orly, how are you doing? What's going on today? You were in the Knesset. I am just I'm recording here from Cleveland, Ohio at the conference of the American ⁓ Conference of Cantors at their convention. So it's ⁓ I've had a very musical morning ⁓ already and it's ⁓ it's a lot of fun. ⁓ Orly, tell us a little bit about what's ⁓ what's going on with you. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so my morning was not very musical. It was filled with screams, like for four hours. I spent four hours at the Knesset committee, which discusses a new basic law that this government is pushing for very fiercely called Basic Law Torah Study. Sounds great, right? But it's actually the point of this basic law, which, know, basically is like part of our constitution. So it's like, you know, let's, you know, you know, sort of add something to the constitution. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. The basic law is like the Bill of Rights without the Constitution, right? It's like yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: right. And it's supposed to be something that you give it like deep ⁓ thought and discussion ⁓ a week. ⁓ had three discussions this week. Today was the third one. ⁓ it's a law that states that ⁓ the, it does not state this, but it's a clear intention is to make sure that the Haredim who are not serving in the army. are going to get to be exempt from army service despite what the Supreme Court ruled and entitled to all the benefits that soldiers are getting. Okay, so this is the bottom line, basically giving them anything without them ⁓ the burden, the military burden, other burdens in Israel. ⁓ And so they're trying to hide this because it's a very unpopular thing to do, but that's what they want to do. And this is sort of the, ⁓ know, the gift that Netanyahu is giving to the Haredi party in order for him to stay in power until the scheduled date for election. So there were four hours of discussion today. spoke today earlier this week, Ori Narov director of our legal department also spoke, of course, against this law saying that this is not democratic, but it's also not Jewish because Judaism believed in both Torah studying and of course committing to helping, know, defending your country and also obviously providing and working. ⁓ But they actually voted to pass it in the first reading. So after four hours, it was approved in the committee. And tomorrow it's being brought to the plenum of the Knesset and it's going to pass in the first reading. And if they won, they can pass it next week. Josh Weinberg: Orly am I correct that the deadline before the recess is july sixteenth and so they're trying to push it as fast as right, right. And ⁓ and how are how are feeling about it? Just like when you talk to people, just the fact that this is it feels like a real slap in the face to the people who have been spending, especially the reservists, I have to say, who have been spending just hundreds and hundreds of days. I mean, listen, I I I wanna just Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, July 17th. Yeah, yeah. And it's just, I think it's very... Josh Weinberg: Take note that representing American Jews who also don't serve in the army. ⁓ I wanna ⁓ you know, put in perspective, of course, but ⁓ let let's think about that as we ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ Yes, were a lot of guests who are either reservists or wives of people who are on reserve duty. A lot of them, by the way, who said that we are coalition voters, we are right-wing people, you can't do this to us. It doesn't make any sense. People really cried and it was very emotional. Of course, they don't give a damn because the coalition just has this political calculation of staying in power. So it was very cynical, ⁓ very unpopular among... a huge Israeli ⁓ sector, including coalition voters. But I think this government really has no boundaries and it fits really nicely to the topic of our conversation because it touches very nicely on the meeting point of religion, specifically Judaism and democracy. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. And and look, we're feeling that here, here in the United States as well. I mean, if you read the newspapers this week, it is all about the negotiation of power and authority that is going on with the Supreme Court and the executive branch of government and how their negativ it was something that we've been putting under a magnifying glass in Israel since the ⁓ beginning of the judicial overhaul of the judicial reforms in in 2023 ⁓ and that is very much playing out right now in the United States and and and I wanna ⁓ you know bring in Rabbi Holtzman into the discussion because I think that, you know, right now for American Jews, ⁓ America represented this notion of religious freedom, of civic equality, and the possibility of belonging fully as Jews and citizens, and that these promises of democracy are not self-preserved, okay, and that they have to continue to be exercised and to work on them, you know, with a sustained effort and lots of moral courage, I would say. ⁓ and ⁓ and that's exactly the conversation that I wanna have. So Rabbi Michael Holtzman is the rabbi of Northern Virginia Hebrew Congregation and the founder of Faith 250 which is a national initiative inviting faith communities to mark America's 250th anniversary through study, conversation, civic ritual, and democratic renewal. His work focuses on the relationship between faith and democracy, the role of religious communities in rebuilding civic trust. And the ways sacred tools, text study, sacred disagreement, interpretation and community can help strengthen democratic culture. Michael, thank you for being with us and for making time, which is this is like almost like the high holidays for you, you know, in terms of coming to the Fourth of July. So thank you for being with us. Michael Holzman: Thank you. And I'm really honored to be with the two of you, real leaders in the fight for Jewish freedom, ⁓ both in America and in Israel. So so I'm really honored to be here with you guys. Josh Weinberg: Wonderful. And my Michael's a a a very beloved colleague and friend. And ⁓ Michael, let's let's jump right into it. ⁓ what caused you? Tell us a little bit of the inception story of Faith 250 and you know, what you've been thinking about. It's it's already a few years in the making. ⁓ and and how how did this come about? Michael Holzman: Sure. ⁓ so I like like you said in my intro, ⁓ I am a congregational rabbi. I lead a reform synagogue in the suburbs of Washington DC. ⁓ I would say fairly typical American suburban reform synagogue. We're about five hundred families and ⁓ probably the most unsexy profession in all of North America, ⁓ to be a a congregational clergy person ⁓ in the suburbs. Thank you. Josh Weinberg: And don't sell yourself short. I mean that's you know, come on. Yeah, yeah. Michael Holzman: ⁓ out here, out here in the burbs, you know, no one's really paying attention. ⁓ and ⁓ what what to was in 2016 my congregation kind of went through ⁓ a fairly standard internal governance meltdown, ⁓ infighting, backbiting, all kinds of bad behavior. ⁓ which happens in churches, mosques, and synagogues everywhere. Ask any pastor, they'll tell you the same story. They've experienced it. ⁓ And ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Kariv's famous line that the politics of the Knesset are not worse than the politics of the Beit Knesset. Of the yeah. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: You Michael Holzman: That's right. That's right. So, so ⁓ at you know, Alexis de Tocqueville said in the eighteen thirties that Americans learn how to run a big democracy by practicing in little democracies all over the country. And ⁓ that's what our houses of worship are. So we went through ours and we decided, look, our religion has to have something to teach us about how we can treat each other. Let's not just study the lessons. Josh Weinberg: Mm. Michael Holzman: ⁓ and get the curriculum as some ideas, but ⁓ let's actually practice the lessons in our religious behavior. So we decided to take our Torah study on Saturday mornings, and once a month we would study a text that we all share in common from American history, but one that contains some controversy, some tension around who we are. And we use this experience of of talking about tension in the American context to learn how we can talk about tension in our synagogue context so that when things like our our mortgage or our preschool or COVID closures, when those things came up, we were better prepared to deal with disagreement and dissent inside the inside the community. So actually the big topics of America became training grounds for the we reversed De Tocqueville. We we used the big topic of democracy to help strengthen our little democracy. And this was so effective and has been so wonderful for renewing the culture of our congregation. We're thriving and ⁓ we have a really healthy experience on our board. No one No one leaves our board saying, ⁓ thank God that's over, you know. ⁓ I mean, although the the number of hours is high, but but you know, it's it's an ex Sure. Josh Weinberg: is so it is so interesting because you know, some people would have gone to like Hillel and Shamai and, you know, disagreements for the sake of heaven and blah blah blah. They know we always use those kind of things. How how did you land on De Tocqueville. ⁓ Dafka, as we say? Michael Holzman: Well, I that's a great question. I mean, look, my absolutely I have a great deal of respect for things like the the Elu V Elu program from the One America movement or the Mahloket Matters program from Pardes ⁓ there's there's lots of programs at you know, at Shalom Hartman, I was part of a I was part of a research team that put together a framework for American civics that's all based on Jewish language of you know, Mahloket Lashem Shamaim and and mipnei darkhi shalom and and and other principles. Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Michael Holzman: Coming straight out of our tradition. Those are all really, really important things to know and to teach. And I think that clergy get a great deal of that, ⁓ rabbis, cantors get a great deal of that wisdom out of their training, ⁓ out of our tradition. ⁓ I have, you know, on my shelf here this great Jewish political tradition series that Hartman put together a few years ago. ⁓ I went to De Tocqueville. because what I was witnessing was that. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: ⁓ huh. ⁓ huh. Michael Holzman: The external influence of American political toxicity was seeping into the culture of my congregation. And I think that that's impossible to ignore. That the external culture of politics in America, in Israel, in France, in Argentina, it doesn't matter. Wherever we are, Jews, Christians, Muslims, everybody is living in saturated, in ⁓ marinating in a toxic stew of partisanship, anger, you know, division, conflict. It's all based upon the structure of our phones and the internet and the algorithm, which are all fed by a dopamine addiction economy. And so, you know, we can't avoid that. So I said, well, okay, there's got to be something in American history and democracy that has kept us going for so long that's stronger than the algorithm. What is it? What's what's the what's the counter algorithm? And it turns out the counter algorithm is participation in local communities and leadership experiences. talking about the rules and the governance and and how we treat each other in experiences of deliberation, we have all the time. Orly Erez Likhovski: And how, so how did you bring it about to faith 250? mean, how did you take it to toward the 250th birthday, you know, of the US? Michael Holzman: Sure. Well, so so this kind of brings things ⁓ to kind of a different kind of aspect of the problem. And that is that, you know, certain things used to be above partisanship, probably in Israel too. ⁓ certain things used to be unifying forces. And over the past ten years, maybe longer, everything, every single thing has become partisan, right? You can't you can barely say anything now without Putting yourself in a blue column or a red column in the American context. And and so the 250th. Let me let me back up. I'm 52 years old. I was two and a half years old in 1976 on July 4th. I do not remember the bicentennial. I do not remember the raid on Entebbe Okay. What I do remember is being six, seven, eight years old and having people talk to me about the bicentennial and ⁓ leftover McDonald's cups with bicentennial merch, you and logos. And I remember hearing about it and being a child. And I remember thinking around you know age eight, 10, 12 years old, wow, I really missed something cool. When's the next time that's going to happen? ⁓ I'll be alive in the 250th. I won't make it to the 300th. And I said, I want to make sure that when the 250th comes around, I have a special experience because I didn't get to have the last one. This is like a childhood promise to myself. I forgot about it. Right, like like we always do, we forget our childhood promises. And then about eighteen months ago, a friend of mine who is on the the congressionally appointed commission for the 250th this is a bipartisan commission created ten years ago by Congress, right, to plan for the 250th He tells me that the whole commission has been sidelined. It's been sidelined by the Trump administration, ⁓ that created a parallel structure. I forget the names. One's called America 250 one's called Freedom two fifty, right? It's very confusing. And that the Trump administration was going to take over the 250th as their own personal party. And 18 months ago, I said to myself, that's not going to be something I want to be a part of. I can tell you right now, I I know what that's going to look like because I've watched MAGA rallies before. And it's going to look like a MAGA rally, right? And for those who love MAGA rallies, that'll be great. But for the other, you know, 60% of America, it's not going to be great. So, so, you know, what can I do? Well, I actually have this toolkit that I've been working on with my congregation. that I've shared with a handful of other synagogues. What if we were to share this with other congregations, like non-Jewish congregations in America, like in the local community? I happen to be the beneficiary that I'm grateful that my predecessors in my position were part of a network of clergy in the local area. And I have very strong friendships with all of those local clergy. I said to them, hey, pastors, imams, can we get together and talk about America this year? They loved it. They said, let's do it. And then they said, can we share this with some of our friends in other neighborhoods and other cities in America? And then they began sharing it. And boom, boom, boom. Now we have 41 different groups of clergy around the country, 261 congregations all over the country. I think it's 264. Orly Erez Likhovski: for the tourists. Josh Weinberg: Wow. Orly Erez Likhovski: So each group is like a cluster of congregations of different faiths that they are gathering and studying about democracy and faith and what is the role of religion in bringing people together? Could you say a little about what is actually happening? Michael Holzman: That's right. Sure. So the way I think about this is it's a little bit like the Mishnah and the Gemara. So so the Mishnah in this case would be the clergy looking at a document we already agree is sacred to America, the Declaration of Independence. That's the text. a pro a proof text is a little bit more like I'm making a point and I'm gonna go reach for a text to help me make my point. ⁓ the ⁓ like a Mishnah Gemara is like we're starting with something we have to we have to interpret this thing. What is this thing? So Josh Weinberg: Like a like a proof text like a proof text. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, fair, fair. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Holzman: So we have the Declaration of Independence and we have the New Colossus, a poem by a Jew, Emma Lazarus, you know, give your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, right? We have ⁓ America the Beautiful, a poem written by a ⁓ a Methodist ⁓ poet and set to music by a Methodist ⁓ you know, ⁓ pianist, ⁓ accompanist, right? So so we we and we have a fourth text called ⁓ What to the Slave is the Fourth of July. Which is a famous speech given by Frederick Douglass in 1852. Right. So we look at these four different texts, we study them together, and then we are are the Amoraim. We are the ones creating the Gemara, like the commentary. What do these things mean? How do we explain these today? Right. And then we take these same texts. So we first have four, four lunches, basically, where the clergy get together and study. And then we invite our congregations to come together. And the congregations We had 180 people and a a neighboring group, a neighboring cluster had 200 people. And they get together and they sit at tables. And at the tables, people talk about what they think the text means. Right. If we were really, really organized. ⁓ yeah, big time. I mean, it's loud. It's loud. And I will tell you, we actually this is one of the one of the great things about this is that in America, we have the benefit that ⁓ different faith communities Josh Weinberg: Like like like bait me drash style kind of thing. ⁓ yeah Yeah, yeah. Yeah and I look like Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Michael Holzman: ⁓ have different strengths and we bring them to each other and we share. So so one one thing is that we ⁓ in the Jewish community have a very strong tradition of Beit Midrash We taught that to our Presbyterian and and Episcopalian and Muslim friends. The Muslims understand Beitman Rash. They get it. Okay. But the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians were a little bit nervous to speak up again like ⁓ Yeah, yeah. So ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yes. It's it's a it's a very semitic thing, as it were. ⁓ yeah, yeah. Michael Holzman: So, like, you know, t and the African American Baptist, you know, tradition comes in and they bring a whole different rhetorical tradition. The Latter day Saints, you know, showed up, and the Latter-day Saints, the Mormons showed up, and they bring an incredible, an incredible like ⁓ tradition of adult learning. They have a very strong religious education component to their faith. So they're very used to being environments of learning environments and ha the way that they handle themselves is really confident in terms of. being in a learning situation and that's really helpful because in our community they're in the minority politically. So, you know, they bring a conservative point of view and everyone else in the room is mostly on the left. And they've been beautiful. And and so so this becomes our beit midrash Josh Weinberg: And and how are they facilitated, by the way? Like is it are there trained facilitators or is it ⁓ you know, everyone for the Yeah. Michael Holzman: Lightly. I I would say I would say that's a part of the program that has been uneven, depending on what table you're at. They're they're lay volunteer facilitators and we give them a little bit of training and we give them a handout with questions to follow and we give them a timeline so that they stay on track. ⁓ some table facilitators are better than others. It's kind of the luck of the draw. Orly Erez Likhovski: I think, Michael, it's fascinating, but before we continue to dive in into this interfaith gatherings, I want to go back a minute and talk about the role of democracy for the Jewish people, both in America and Israel, because I think that's a really interesting sort of starting point to our discussion. And I think that in America, it was clear that Jews came to America with this promise of democracy, of religious freedom, of safety, of protection. ⁓ And so I want you to speak a little bit about what democracy means for Jews in in America and tell you that in Israel, know, this question of democracy and Judaism was very, you know, apt when we had the protest for democracy, right, and against the judicial coup in 2023. And, you know, we were there, there were for a moment in Israel fighting for our democracy and we did this in the name of Judaism. So we did it from our Jewish perspective. And I remember that Rabbi Rick Jacobs gave a speech in one of the huge mass protests on Kaplan Street in Tel Aviv at the beginning of 2023 in front of 200,000 people. And I remember him speaking about how Jews in America know how democracy is important because they are the minority, whereas Jews in Israel obviously are the majority. So I think this, I would like to speak a little bit about this connection of Jews specifically to democracy. Michael Holzman: So I want yeah, I I I love the question and you're gonna have to cut me off because I could go on about this topic forever. ⁓ you know, I I'm really glad I'm really glad you brought up ⁓ Rick and his remarks because you know, everything that I'm doing, I'm a product of of the Reform Seminary, a H U C. I'm a product of working in a reform URJ synagogue. I think reform Judaism as ⁓ a theological position and a and a sociology, ⁓ you know, a social experience. Orly Erez Likhovski: you Michael Holzman: really shaped my attitudes about democracy. I want to put a a slightly finer point on the word democracy, because it's not just democracy, it's liberal democracy that we're talking about. And when I s yeah, and when I talk about liberal, what I mean is not a set of policy positions that are on the left. It's a kind of classic philosophical ⁓ point of view. And liberalism, which I'm sure you both know about and talk about, right? Liberalism is predicated on the idea that all human beings are created equal. Josh Weinberg: It has to be a liberal democracy, right, right. Michael Holzman: you know, B' Zelem Elohim, as our text says, as as it it says in the Quran, as it says in the in the ⁓ you know, scriptures. And, you know, that that the fundamental human dignity, the fundamental equality of all people is the starting point, right, for liberal ⁓ Everything else is built upon that premise. And so when you ⁓ to a to a a systemic problem, let's say like it's possible for the democracy for the for the democracy with a straight majority vote. to produce a result that is bad for one group in the democracy and and actually reduces the dignity for that one group in the democracy, that's not constitutional. That's not allowed. Orly Erez Likhovski: Right, it's of substantive versus procedural or formal democracy. Josh Weinberg: I mean that's that's Michael Holzman: Well but the pr th the the thing about Josh Weinberg: didn't de Tocqueville warn about that as the in terms of the tyranny of the majority when those checks and balances and you know oversight are not in place. And I think that was at the fundamental disagreement with us, you know, from ⁓ our camp, broadly speaking, the ⁓ those who were trying reform the judicial system to say, no, there cannot be a sixty one percent ⁓ sixty one, you know, majority, fifty one percent majority. It has to be, you know, more consensus and and and and and put those protections in place, right? ⁓ Michael Holzman: It's actually it's actually the I mean, if you really, really want to drill down, right? This is the thing that Herzl noticed in France, right? You know, the French and De Tocqueville was French, right? He they believed in democracy, but it was a democracy where liberalism was weak. And they they talked a good game about liberalism and and equality and fraternity and all that stuff. They talked a good game, right? But they didn't walk the walk and they didn't really protect minority groups in in Europe, right? And Herzl said, Josh Weinberg: Mm. Michael Holzman: Herzl, am I allowed to curse on your on your podcast? Is this it? Herzl zeh bullshit gadol I mean, that's basically what he said. And you know, ⁓ ⁓ you know, this is this is in America been a debate since ⁓ the founders, right? There was the Jeffersonian point of view, and Madison was on Jefferson's side, you know, basically saying, we gotta build a system that protects ⁓ human dignity, even while these guys were holding slaves, right? ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Michael Holzman: And they and they also had to create a system that would unify the colonies and make some kind of accommodation for all the disagreements in the colonies. And that's where you end up having some elements of the founding that allow for non-liberal democracy, a democracy that punishes or reduces the dignity of certain minority groups, right? America has been debating this tension ever since the founding, right? And and we're we're part of that because Jews in the beginning. And today, especially since October 7th, Jews have been the test case for American liberal democracy. We were the first test case, really. I mean, us and the Quakers and the Baptists, we were the groups that were the minorities. And and we wrote the letter to George Washington and he responded. And he didn't say no, he didn't say, I I can't give you permission to be here. You're the citizens. ⁓ I don't give you permission to be here. You have permission already, because you're the citizens, right? That founding principle of America was tested on us. It's been tested on the Mormons. It's been tested on African Americans. It's been tested on more recently Muslims after 9-11, right? So Jews since October 7th are feeling this test, this tension more acutely because of exactly the democracy protests and this current government in Israel is really trying to demonstrate what a non-liberal, an illiberal Hungarian democracy looks like. ⁓ and or democracy in quotes, you know, looks like. And and Jews are stuck in America with this like, how do we be Zionists and support the state of Israel while the state of Israel is led by a bunch of people who don't agree with the moral principles at the basis of our American Judaism? And so, you know, that that's been our huge tension for us. And it's playing out, it's playing out in homes, it's playing out in families, in in congregations. Orly Erez Likhovski: Right, right. Josh Weinberg: That's that's going on right now, you know, we just saw it in New York and this week in Colorado, and ⁓ it's gonna be at the center of, you know, the midterm elections coming up. And ⁓ and how are seeing that playing out in some of these discussions, if I can ask ⁓ you know, that of I some people even you know, we used to speak about dual loyalty and we used to speak about, you know, can I be a ⁓ an American Jew or Jewish or, you know, you know, even thinking about Brandeis's, you know Michael Holzman: And in every and exactly, exactly. Josh Weinberg: over about a hundred and ten years ago who said, you know, by my Zionism actually makes me a better American. The the world looked different in obviously nineteen fifteen when he said that, but ⁓ but but yeah, how how is that playing out for yeah. Michael Holzman: Yeah, thank God for him. ⁓ I mean, so so how's it playing out in our local communities? Well, I mean, the so the first thing I wanna I wanna ⁓ say for any listeners to this podcast that are in Israel, you know, the the news media loves this narrative that everybody hates the Jews and that the democratic socialists are on the march across America on the left, and that the Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes Nazis are on the march on the right. Okay, I'm doing I'm doing left and right for for the screen, not for not for my body. Okay, so right, so so you know, that is a fringe on both ends of the political spectrum. It's a growing fringe, okay? It's not as one or two percent as it used to be, it's probably five or ten percent on either end. But the vast majority of people, eighty percent of people in the middle of America, are not embracing either of these ideologies. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Michael Holzman: Okay, they're not embracing an a Jew hating anti-Zionism. If they have criticisms of Israel as the as a government or they have problems with US policy towards Israel as a government, they're certainly the vast majority of people I interact with do not embrace the idea of wiping Israel off the map. Okay, that's vastly exaggerated by certain elements of the of the Jewish and non-Jewish media. Okay. However, however, the biggest thing people should understand is that most Americans are are so ignorant. when it comes to events in Israel and and Palestine, the Middle East writ large. They're so ignorant. And they're especially ignorant about the role that Israel plays in the lives of Jews in everyday communities all over the country. So one of the advantages of Faith 250 is that we are very local. We are very much based on neighborhood relationships. The premise of our work is that the president will come, the president will go, but my building Has been here for 60 years. It's going to be here for another 60 years. And your building and your institution and your community has been here for decades. And therefore, we have a long-term relationship with each other. Our relationship is not going to change based upon who the who's in the White House. Therefore, we have to understand each other. And when ⁓ when when Israel does come up, it doesn't come up very much because it's not, it's not a major part of the conversation at Faith 250 events, to be quite honest with you. But when it has come up, The thing that's happened for both the Jews and the Muslims, right? Because we do have Palestinians living in our local community, and we have other Muslims who who are ⁓ allies Palestinians, ⁓ you know, politically, rhetorically, ⁓ even if even if their countries of origin aren't really allies to Palestinians. ⁓ But ⁓ know, when it's come up, the thing that's been beautiful to watch has been the desire to honor suffering, to provide pastoral support, to to basically provide hesed to each other, which is primary before we get into talking about resolutions and policies and Josh Weinberg: A and to help make sense of all this stuff, right? To synthesize and like Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and just being human to human. I think, you you spoke about the fact that people are ignorant and I think what people are missing obviously is nuance and complexity and obviously saying that we have a terrible government. We have a lot of people in Israel who hold different positions like, you know, the situation is in America. But I do want also to ask you about like a different, you know, connected, but different topic, which is the role of religion in promoting or fighting democracy. And I think in Israel, it's very clear that Judaism and by the way Islam, know, by some terrorist groups have been weaponized to promote hate, right, and violence. We see very clearly under our government that a lot of things are being done in the name of Judaism and what we are doing at IRAC is both combating this and also saying this is not our Judaism. Here is an alternative vision because our Judaism is a Judaism that believes in democracy. Like you said, all of us were created that say, Michael Holzman: Yes. Yes. Orly Erez Likhovski: and beliefs in compassion and justice and tolerance. But we are seeing this very dangerous phenomenon that a lot of people equate religion with extremism. And I want to ask you, yeah, sure, go ahead. I just wanted to ask ⁓ you, how do you deal with that? I mean, that's a very powerful thing that is happening, but yeah, just. Josh Weinberg: And only can I add No, i it it's such it Michael Holzman: This is this is the number one question. This this is the number one question we get. Josh, I'm not sure if you were about to bring this up, but in America it's called Christian nationalism. Is that what you were gonna say? Josh Weinberg: Well, I was gonna say that and and then i ⁓ mean, Orly's point is so important and it's something that I really struggle with, that the more religious ⁓ one or the more observant one is, it seems to be that they are further away from what we may call liberal values, ⁓ which to us to be at the core of our text ⁓ and our tradition. And so Wh why why is that? You know, what is the case of that? And and how do you see it too, you know, that that that the Bible thumpers are known as be the ones who are anti liberal? ⁓ and help us, you know, parse that out a little bit. Michael Holzman: So, so this kind of connects deeply to what we were talking about with Madison and De Tocqueville earlier, right? The problem is not religion, the problem is religious nationalism, right? And the problem is what happened when you take a religion and you give it the power of a state, right? Religion and power have a long history. And if you look across human history, every time a religious group has had the power of a state at its disposal, at its disposal, including the Hasmoneans, right? It doesn't turn out well, okay? Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Michael Holzman: It ends up turning into persecution of religious minorities. By the way, usually religious minorities of the same religion, right? Usually you have people who are pushing for a purer and a purer. So if I was a Christian in America, I'd be very worried about Christian nationalism. In fact, my Christian colleagues are are ⁓ actually more concerned about Christian nationalism even than Jews are. Because if you're a liberal Christian, if you're a Presbyterian PC USA or you're Episcopalian, the first people that the that the Christian nationalists are coming for is not the Jews. Josh Weinberg: Mm. Michael Holzman: It's gonna be the liberal Christians, right? And and the Mormons, right? They're gonna they're gonna go for a Puritan definition of what is Christian. So when with this Torah study bill that you were talking about early, it's so interesting. Like, would they define my Shabbat morning Torah study as Torah study? Does my Shabbat morning Torah study count as Torah study? Probably not, okay? And I would imagine that the definition of Torah study is gonna get narrower and narrower and narrower because that because these kinds of religious nationalist movements always have to Ever more pure. Ever they're basically a purity cult, okay? Like like in Leviticus, okay? And they're and they're trying to make the definition as narrow as possible to scare everybody into obedience, right? That's what happens across human history. That's what's going to happen in America if the Christian nationalists have their way. That's what happened. That's what Iran looks like with the Muslim nationalists. And that's what the the right wing in Israel is looking for, is a very narrow definition of what Judaism is. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, I wanted to say two things. First of all, I think we have to be very like true to ourselves and admit that within Jewish resources, within Jewish texts, we can find both views, right? We can find terrible things that it's very hard for us to identify with and we can find amazing things, right? So if we're saying, ⁓ Judaism is all about that, you can find everything, right? That you want inside Judaism. I think in Israel for many, many years, Judaism has become associated with orthodoxy that has become more and more extreme. Like you said, it's a matter of extremism, not only religion. And for many years, people say, okay, if this is Judaism, I don't want anything to do with it if I'm a liberal because they just don't meet. And I think that's in one sense an opportunity for liberal Judaism in Israel to tell Israelis you can be both. You can be Jewish and take ownership of your Judaism without giving up your liberal values. And I think that's a very like the... The fact that the government has become so extreme and has taken Judaism to such an extremist side actually presents an opportunity for us to bring Israel a different alternative and to get more Israelis to identify with us. Michael Holzman: So I I completely agree with what you're saying, and the it's really hard. It's really, really, really hard. Be and Israel has an advantage here, okay. And I'll tell you the advantage in a second, but it's really hard because it's much easier for the brain to say religion bad, no secularism good, and that's how the world should work. And I think that big parts of the Western world did that in the twentieth century, and purely secular states aren't doing well either. Okay. We need some influence of religion to teach us virtue. To teach us how to be good citizens, to teach us how how we're obligated to serve, right? So like service in the military in America, in the American military, amongst Jews, is very, very low. It's very and in fact, service in the American military is low for the whole country. It's it's low for the whole country, right? So religion teaches us we have to serve. We have to serve, right? We have to do things out of obligation when we're religious, right? So the the the key is not just serving in the military, but all kinds of service. Right. The key is that religion needs to be influential, but not empowered by the government. Right. And and that's a fine line to walk, right? The advantage that Israel has is your flag, is our flag, okay, the Israeli flag. And because the Israeli flag is this incredible combination of Mamlachtiut, right? Like it's a symbol of a state, and it's got these elements of Jewish religion kind of in the flag itself. And the democracy movement in Israel was brilliant. I mean Josh Weinberg: Hm. Michael Holzman: I'm not the first person to notice this, but the fact that those flags were just everywhere, it it sent a message about identity as a state and our Jewishness. I don't know how many Hiloni Jews recognize that the stripes of a Tallit on the Israeli flag. Okay. But for an American Jew, for an every American Jew goes to, you know, Independence Hall and and hears the lecture about how they chose the the flag and and the stripes on the Tallit. And and so, you know, like we in America Need to do some work thinking about the meaning of our flag, taking the flag back from a right wing that that claims it as and a left wing that hates it, right? And instead saying, this is a shared sacred symbol, right? And when I use the word sacred, that's informed by my experience as a religious human being. Eisenhower said, our our system of government depends on religion. I don't care what it is. Okay. That should be the state policy. Josh Weinberg: So let me build on that. Yeah, I love the image of the flag and thinking about the the sacredness of it, that we put those fl both of those flags on our bhimah next to the Aron Kodesh you know, where the Torah is and that you know we really uplift it it it not not in a you you know, we don't bow down to them, ⁓ but they're there as part of our our symbolic world. And you and I and I just want to ask you because we can be we as Michael Holzman: It depends, but I I don't care what it is. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: you know, as as rabbis as congregations, we can be very political without being partisan, ⁓ and to couch our you know, relationship with democracy in religious language. ⁓ so what what should be the role that rabbis, clergy, congregations, even you know, these interfaith coalitions that you're working with, what should their role be in defending in preserving in sort you know, rehashing democracy for this moment and rebuilding that civic trust. Michael Holzman: So I wanna I wanna be really, really clear here. I I do think that there is a role for religious leaders to be prophetic. And I think that there's a time for a religious leader to speak out of their religious conviction and to advocate for specific policy ends and to engage in the political system with as individuals or if their congregation so chooses to do so as a congregation. To do things like faith-based community organizing, to do things like supporting the religious action center of reformed Judaism in America that has this long history of being involved in political issues. Of course, I think we should and supporting it in Israel as well, right? I and and we do, I do think that ⁓ there's a role to be prophetic. However, ⁓ many, many, many American clergy and congregations got ⁓ are enamored. Josh Weinberg: You can support it in Israel too, by the way. You can. Michael Holzman: And so impressed with the vision of leadership, the model of leadership created by the 1960s clergy, that they think that being prophetic is the whole story. And the 1960s clergy, they were prophetic and they did advocate for incredibly important policies, but they also were champions of a healthy civic life. And they had rules about how they did prophecy. They had rules about how they engaged in politics. And they taught that they were trying to build a beloved community. that was not just a policy goal, but a civic goal. It was a culture of civics that they were trying to create. So I use the language of civics and not politics, because politics as Eitan Hirsch has written, is about power. Okay. And sometimes we need to engage with our neighbors Josh Weinberg: Just say Professor Hirsch has a book called Power in Politics that ⁓ is really important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Holzman: It's called I think it's I think it's called ⁓ I don't know, it's up here somewhere. It's ⁓ politics is for power, I think is what it's called. Yeah, and and it's a great book, right? And it talks about how so many Americans talk about America and they think they're doing politics, but they're doing political hobbyism. And they've made politics the the fight like a soap opera in their lives that they watch every day, like days of our lives. And, you know, like a daytime TV soap opera. You know, in in Latin America, they call it a telenovela. We've turned our our political system into a telenovela, right? Which which is all about infighting and gossip and backbiting. That's not a healthy civic culture. And that's not what I want for my congregation or my local community or my neighborhood association or my country. And so civics is about saying, My religion teaches me how to behave when I'm in public. It teaches me how to engage in disagreement, how to deliberate as a group, and how to treat minority people. how to build institutions, how to grow them and improve them, all these things that are necessary to have a healthy democracy. I bring all that wisdom from my religious tradition, and you bring your wisdom from your religious tradition. And together we create a civic culture that's good for all of us. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, think it's, again, going back to the interfaith work that we spoke about before, I think especially when things become so polarized, obviously it just becomes more more important than when we spoke about how religion is being weaponized to actually draw people apart, actually bring people together. I think in Israel it was very evident, of course, after October 7th, our work for a shared society became much more difficult but also all the more important, and especially at times of crisis. which both our countries are going through. I think getting together around religious texts is super important, but I want to ask you, counting on what Josh has said, I mean, you are basically gathering in order to learn. And my question is whether you have sort of a call to action at the end of such meetings or like, does the project want to mobilize people to do something to protect our democracies that both, you know, both our democracies are in grave danger right now and both of us are going to face elections in the same, around the same time that we are very concerned about their integrity. So are you calling on people now, you know, the message after 250 years is to go out and about and to protect your democracy? Michael Holzman: So we are part of a network of organizations that are engaged in elect election fairness and election access. ⁓ the Jewish Partnership for Democracy, a more perfect union is one of our our core partners. We're also working with Interfaith America. There's other organizations that are are providing resources on action, ⁓ you know, repair the world. How can we act? Right. So simple thing we can do is most jurisdictions in America, the way American elections work. Is that there's 35,000 different jurisdictions and each one has a different electoral mechanism, you know, machines versus ballots versus this versus that. And that's one of the ways in which we keep the system safe, quite honestly, is it's just it's so so spread out. And most of them are in need of volunteers to be election poll workers, just to be there so the lines don't get too long. And I'll tell you, long lines mean poor people can't vote because they work hourly. Okay. And so You know, just be an election worker. Be a that so we're encouraging that, right? There's this thing in America called being a poll chaplain, right? What is a poll chaplain? It's a person who's trained on conflict de-escalation, just in case at any of the polls, there's someone who shows up ready to fight, you know, just learn learning how to be a calming presence at a poll polling place, right? You know, there's also ways of of combating disinformation around the election. Like so we know, because we've seen it already happen, you know, in the primaries. Josh Weinberg: Mm. Michael Holzman: We know, and we saw it, we've seen it happen in the last few cycles. Yep, yep. We know that when the election is over, there's immediately going to be a disinformation machine out there talking about how it was rigged, how it's false, blah, blah, blah. Religious leaders and congregations have an opportunity to say to their community, Hey, I've spoken to the County Board of Elections. I know the volunteers. You some of you guys are volunteers. We know that this thing's not rigged. Okay. This is false. Okay. And and Josh Weinberg: In in twenty twenty four, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Super important. Yeah. Super important. Michael Holzman: ⁓ everything I'm telling you right now is resources that is not a faith 250 part of the program. It's something we refer to these other organizations and encourage. Orly Erez Likhovski: Amazing. Josh Weinberg: And I do hope one day that America learns from Israel in that the election day is a national holiday and a day off of work for everybody to, you know, if if we were really serious about democracy here in America, ⁓ you know, what one day. But ⁓ yeah, okay. Michael Holzman: I would like I would like us to take to take the it'll never happen. I would like us to take the Australian system, which is that voting's mandatory and you and Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah. Otherwise you're fined. you vote, you're fined. Yeah, you get a Josh Weinberg: ⁓ yeah. Michael Holzman: what are the fines what are the fines used for, Orly? Do you know the fines are used for? They take the fines. No, no, they take the fines and they pool them and everyone who votes gets a lottery ticket and one person wins all the fines. Josh Weinberg: Wow. Orly Erez Likhovski: No, for education, like civic education. Josh Weinberg: No way. That is incredible. Incredible. Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ my God. Michael Holzman: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: I would have used it for civic education, especially for young people. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Michael Holzman: Okay. Okay. If you get elected you can do that. Josh Weinberg: So there's a monetary incentive to voting, actually, you know, that you know, you can be in the picture. ⁓ j just as as we're, you know, bringing this to ⁓ conversation, really rich and beautiful, you know, wonderful conversation, ⁓ Michael, thank you. ⁓ I I feel like the the feelings that many American Jews feel towards Israel but feel differently be about America, but they're wrestling with this notion of how do we teach love of country without ⁓ really without despair. ⁓ and and and how do we take you know that that really your involvement or one's involvement is critically important for this, ⁓ and that our tradition has something to to offer that discussion and is not something that should be separate as a part of the you know, keeping religion separate from state, let's say, or from politics. Michael Holzman: So this is like this is probably I think the most important question. I'm really glad you got here. ⁓ because word despair really ⁓ it hits me deeply in the stomach. ⁓ because this is my biggest fear, actually. ⁓ My fear is that people are checking out. ⁓ you know, the I told you earlier how I felt about the 250th and it was like instinctive for me 18 months ago. Like, I gotta do something. ⁓ I thought everybody would like the 250th was super important. And I was downtown in DC just a just a yet a couple days ago. And was it yesterday? It was two days ago on Sunday. And I'm like, ⁓ it was sad. It was sad. It was, I was driving around and it was mostly deserted. And there was a lot of National Guard soldiers and there was police everywhere. And and it did not look like a festive, joyous place that the whole country is excited to go to. Right. And ⁓ most people I've talked to, a lot of people are just checking out. And what it reminds me of is what happens to a marriage when one member of the marriage or both members just stop loving each other. So you brought up patriotism. Patriotism is love of country. And if we stop loving our country, okay, ⁓ loving a country does not mean loving everything about the country. It it means loving the the moral aspiration that the country stands for. In some places, the moral aspiration is like an ethnic group, like if you're, you know, a Frenchman, you love the French culture, fine. America and Israel are united in the sense that they both represent a moral aspiration that is pluralist, okay? ⁓ Amer Israel in the Jewish context, okay, with the de the statements in the Declaration of Independence for protection of minorities, right? But the fact that Israel and America are both countries that are primarily immigrants, mixtures of people from all over the world means that pluralism is baked into the moral aspiration of the country, right? And if we stop loving that aspiration, we despair. Right. And and despair is not allowed. It's just not allowed. So like hope, hope has to be the the priority, I in my opinion. Right. So like, you know, we have to go back to the Hatikvah. We have to go back to asking ourselves, what does it mean to be a free people in our land? What does that mean? And have that Beit Midrash conversation with everybody we can find from every aspect of the political spectrum, including the Arabs, right? Including the Haredim. What does it mean to be a free people? And how can we understand? Josh Weinberg: Mm. Michael Holzman: What you think it means and what I think it means, and learn to love our country by li by learning to love each other. Like how do we do that? That's the question. Orly Erez Likhovski: think really, Michael, your project, know, the faith 250 really brings hope to me and I'm sure to a lot of other people. And I want to conclude by reading a beautiful prayer that Rabbi Oded Mazor of the Kol Ha Neshama Congregation Jerusalem wrote, a prayer for democracy that he wrote in 2023. And I think it's very appropriate for this chapter. So he wrote, God of our ancestors, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob, Rachel, Leah, Bilha and Zilpa Bless those who stand in defense of democracy, equality and peace. From among our people and those all over the world who work to repair society in the face of the threat to the justice system and the rule of law. May the Holy One protect them and save them from all trouble and distress and from every plague and illness. From all harassment and injury and any attempt to humiliate them and undermine their commitment. In the fight against indifference, inaction and non-involvement. May their efforts be successful and may they have a good eye to see wrongs done, a good heart so as not to stand idly by and the strength to act to protect the rights of all, to do justice and bring peace to every person made in the image of God in the world. May the words of the Torah be fulfilled for because of this thing, God will bless you in all of your efforts and all of your undertakings. And let us say, amen. Michael Holzman: Amen. Amen. That's wonderful. Josh Weinberg: and you have a meaningful and powerful ⁓ fourth of July celebrating this 250th anniversary. Michael Holzman: It'll be a beautiful Shabbat. Josh Weinberg: Yes. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: For sure. Thank you, Michael. And conversations like this are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. And if these conversations are important to you, please share this episode and help us keep the conversation going. Josh Weinberg: And to stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to help us grow, make an engaging post on social media and leave a five-star review. Maybe something like, up until this episode, I was practicing political hobbyism, but now I will be sure to not, and I'll go in do the do the real thing. ⁓ something like that. You don't have to say that verbatim, but ⁓ you get the point. And send this episode to someone who should be part of this conversation. And if you'd like to sponsor an episode of the Pluralist Podcast. ⁓ please contact us and we'd love to make that happen. It's a great way to honor a birthday anniversary or just because you feel this is important. Todaraba. Michael Holzman: And thank thank you guys. And I'm really grateful for the leadership both of you are providing for Reform Judaism and for the Jewish people. Thank you. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye bye. Thanks. Bye bye. Josh Weinberg: It's all early. And Yeah.