Latest / True Comfort / Life felt meaningless: Jesus didn't. With Alisa Childers

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Life felt meaningless: Jesus didn't. With Alisa Childers · True Comfort

• Teasi (00:01) Hi, I'm Teasi and I want to welcome you to this first episode of True Comfort where it's our desire to live out 2 Corinthians chapter 1 verses 3 and 4 that assure us that we have a God who comforts us in all our afflictions and encourage us to share the comfort that we receive with others who need it. And I want to welcome my guest and my dear friend, Alisa Childers. Alisa, thank you for being here. Alisa Childers (00:28) Teasi, I'm so excited about this for a couple of reasons. First of all, you know, I have a podcast and you were my first conversational guest. So it was episode two of the Elisa Childers podcast. And so it's kind of exciting to be your first guest. But the other reason I'm really excited about this is because I think there's such a need for the intersection of head and heart. You know, we in our world of apologetics, where we're talking about sometimes these really heady arguments for the existence of God or even Teasi (00:39) So fun. Alisa Childers (00:58) more culturally tense topics. It's so needed, I think, to bring that into the realm of what do we do when we're actually suffering, when we're actually going through difficult times, and how does all of this stuff apply? And so I'm really, really looking forward to this conversation. Teasi (01:10) Yeah. Yeah, me too. Thank you so much. I want to share just a little bit about you to our for our listeners. So just officially your bio includes being a wife and a mother of two incredible kids. You are a former CCM recording artist with the Dove Award winning group, Zoey Girl. You've written three books that I think are some of the most important books for the church today and I really encourage everyone to read those and I will include information on how to find them in the show notes. You are an inspirational speaker and you have a podcast that is incredible and helps us understand culture, theology, and apologetics. But I want to add something on a personal note as well. You are an incredible gift from God to me. I'm just so thankful for our friendship. You have been there. You've been a voice of reason. biblical faithfulness as I have walked through some of the most excruciating seasons of my life and including losing the church that I went to for 23 years because of spiritual abuse and then also walking me you know as I walked my mom home bit by bit through the the journey of Alzheimer's which was just excruciating but I'm so thankful for you because you are the one that introduced me to this beautiful gift of apologetics. I don't know if you remember it the way I do, but like I think it was your very first time to teach apologetics publicly. It was at we were at the same church at the time. It was like a women's study and I'm pretty sure that you delivered every argument for God's existence in one hour. Alisa Childers (02:59) Yep. I I did. It was my first time. thought I just opened the fire hose and blasted those ladies. I would not do it that way again. Teasi (03:11) Man. No, I don't know what everyone else was thinking, but I was exhilarated. Honestly, like, no, that night was like the starting gun for my own sprint was fired. just, from that moment on, I just, you know, I have been on an intentional pursuit drinking from the fire hose and just loving what I've learned. But for our listeners who have never heard the word Christian apologetics before, would you? Alisa Childers (03:21) Wow. Wow. Teasi (03:43) just briefly explain what apologetics is and maybe share a little bit of how you came to find it and love it. Alisa Childers (03:51) Yeah, so ⁓ first of all, I don't even know what to say to all of that. That just touches me so much because I feel the same way about you. We've had many walks around Kidron Park talking about the deep things of life and there have been times when you've, you know, encouraged me as my platform grew because you were with me from before I even had a blog or anything. And other times where you kind of, you know, put your proverbial hands around my collar and say, go Teasi (03:54) you Alisa Childers (04:18) Go stare at a tree, okay? You need some tree time. So I appreciate all of that. ⁓ And also just, think, being such a good sounding board and all the things. So yeah, so back then, that was my first time ever teaching apologetics. It was to our women's group. And you're right. thought I had to do the entire case for the truthfulness of Christianity, starting with the existence of truth all the way through. Teasi (04:20) Yeah. Alisa Childers (04:44) And it was probably a little much, but I'm so thrilled that you were exhilarated because that's how I felt when I discovered apologetics. And I discovered apologetics really through what you might call the intellectual school of hard knocks. So ⁓ before we were at the church we were at together, I was at a church, this is after my time in contemporary Christian music, that really was basically a deconstructed pastor. who was a progressive Christian, but secretly. So he wasn't telling people that he was already a progressive Christian. But I was a part of this small class where basically every core belief that I had held my whole life, I was a lifelong Christian, loved Jesus my whole life, all of those things were deconstructed intellectually. And so after my husband and I left that church, I think that's really when my faith just kind of snowballed into this. crisis and it was like a dark night of the soul, you know, everybody talks about those kinds of things, but it was truly, truly the darkest point in my life. And it wasn't like the hardest thing I'd been through from just, you know, a different perspective, but to me it was the hardest thing I'd been through because essentially it was trying to take away my absolute foundation for any hope that I had in life to even process some of the other things that I'd gone through. And so ⁓ It really brought me to the point where I can't say I ever crossed the threshold of agnosticism, but I really wasn't sure if God existed. And so I cried out to God one night when I was rocking my daughter in the rocking chair. And I just, I felt, I mean, it felt like I was talking to a brick wall, like it was just going into this black hole of a void. But I just said, God, if you're real, like I really need information. I need you to show up. I didn't need an experience. I had plenty of that. Teasi (06:29) Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (06:37) I needed knowledge. so that's when God thankfully in His faithfulness answered that prayer. And I heard an apologist on the radio answering skeptical college students. ⁓ And then through that I found the seminary that you and I love and are still a part of. And I audited classes through that seminary. I studied and it took a few years, but Teasi (06:39) Mm. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (07:05) After I really studied all of the things that this pastor was saying versus, you know, maybe evidence, I felt just like you did, just exhilarated to know that there were answers that could, ⁓ you know, because, and just bring this in an emotional level, for me, it was like, when the pastor was talking about the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross being cosmic child abuse, and like, we don't have to believe that. For me, it wasn't like, I don't have to believe that, yay, can, for me, it was like, you're taking away any hope I have. Teasi (07:15) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (07:35) I knew I was a sinner. knew if Jesus didn't die on the cross for my sins, I was doomed. So for me, it was like life and death to discover this information. so ⁓ from there, I think at that point, I don't even think I had a blog yet. I think I just was invited to teach. I remember too, and then I'll let you talk again, but I remember ⁓ it was a series where everybody was teaching on a particular word. Teasi (07:58) No, I love it. Alisa Childers (08:04) And so I was invited to teach on any word that I wanted to choose. And everybody else was like, hope and peace and mothering. And I was like, okay, I want to do the word apologetics. And I remember they're like, okay, like whatever that is, which by the way, I think you asked me to define that. So maybe this would be a good time. So generally what I discovered was apologetics and apologetics is one of the most misunderstood maligned Teasi (08:10) I I Alisa Childers (08:34) dismissed and ill-defined words, I think, in Christian and deconstruction culture right now. And what apologetics is, it's a very broad umbrella term that basically just means giving reasons for what you believe to be true. So everybody actually already does it. The deconstructionists do it, the progressive Christians do it, the Buddhists do it, the Muslims do it, health food people do it. Everybody presents evidence. Teasi (08:42) Mm. Yeah, yeah. Alisa Childers (09:04) for why they've come to a conclusion that they have. So that's the broad umbrella. Now in Christian apologetics, it actually comes from, believe it, I always get first and second Peter mixed up, but 315, which says, always be ready to give a reason for the hope that's within you. And that word reason, when it comes from the Greek, it's apoligia, which is where we get our word apologetics. And it has to do with a reasoned defense. It was actually a courtroom term back then. So if you were accused of something, back in that culture, you would be able to give a defense for yourself and that's your apologia. So that was the context within which Paul commanded Christians to do apologetics. And so ⁓ that's really all it is. So it can be whether it's biblical scholarship or science or philosophy or history, archaeology, whatever it might be, ⁓ whatever reasoned defense you're giving from whatever discipline you're pulling from is going to come under the umbrella of Christian apologetics to give a reason why you believe Christianity is true. Teasi (09:38) Mm-hmm. Yeah, that was great. You know, I think about your journey and what led you to apologetics and it's, you know, I'm sad that you had to go through that. I know ⁓ it doesn't feel good at all to feel like the rug is being pulled out from under you. The very ground you're standing on is like being shaken like that. But what I love is that God used a season in your life that really could have just taken you out. Alisa Childers (10:14) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Teasi (10:26) what the enemy meant to just rip your faith away, he actually led you down this path that strengthened your faith beyond what it ever was. Like you came out on the other side of that with a faith that is bolstered and also God equipped you to be able to share it with so many others, including me. mean, I just love just the example of that story of how you came to understand what apologetics is and For me, like, I love that you mentioned that it's misunderstood and often, you know, kind of vilified because that is not my experience with apologetics at all. And in fact, part of the heartbeat of this podcast, why I wanted to even start this, is to show that apologetics is really a gift of love from God. ⁓ For me and my personal experience with it, why I love it so much is Alisa Childers (11:18) Mm-hmm. Teasi (11:24) is not because I want to have all this knowledge. It's not the intellectual pursuit that's so exhilarating to me. Honestly, what's exciting to me is that I'm just learning, like adding evidence to my tool belt that defends the lever of my soul. Like it is, I already know in my heart that I love Jesus, like you said you did. But when, know, basically I kind of describe it as Alisa Childers (11:42) Mm-hmm. Teasi (11:52) Apologetics has equipped my head to come to the rescue of my heart. ⁓ When my heart is crushed, when all of us have a crushed heart, this is one of the times when we are the most vulnerable to deception and despair. And I love that I have these facts, this evidence, these resources on my bookshelf that kind of come to the rescue because those are the times when I'm tempted to say, God, are you even there? Alisa Childers (11:57) wow, that's good. Teasi (12:22) And I look at my Bible and I'm thinking, is this just a collection of fairy tales? And the kind of skeptical claims that we're all up against in our culture today and even just looking around the world and seeing people experiencing things that don't make a lot of sense. so apologetics is like God loving us enough to say, here's my word, here's who I am, and I'm gonna actually give you some evidence, some verifiable facts that you can cling to. Alisa Childers (12:27) Yeah. Teasi (12:52) when you are vulnerable and when you are doubting. And he just invites us into this place where, and I love that there's just so much evidence. There's just so much out there ⁓ and we can have great confidence in him and who he says he is and what he has to say about us and our lives and reality in general, which brings me. Alisa Childers (13:02) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Teasi (13:18) to the heart of our conversation, the main conversation that I wanted to have with you today. just so what I want to do in each episode is invite a Christian apologist, just someone who has like you and I found this beautiful gift of love from God, who will come and share with us, open up their heart and share honestly and transparently about a season in which he or she walked through something very painful, a very dark night of the soul maybe, or some seriously confusing circumstances, but then found truth and comfort in scripture or in the biblical worldview, but then also has substantiated those promises, substantiated that truth with evidence. And my hope, for us in these conversations, for all of us listeners and myself and all of us, is to, as my guests are being brave and honest and sharing, that we will not only see that we're not alone in our Christian experience and in our pain and what pain looks like, but that their boldness will help us to lower walls of self-protection that keep truth out. that we might know, okay, sometimes when someone else goes first, we feel like, ⁓ I'm hoping that our walls of self-protection will, well, not our wisdom, but just the things that cause us to push God away, that we'll be willing to listen, willing to hear God's truth, and that we will also have our own confidence built so that when we are all walking through, these painful situations, which we will continue to do this side of heaven, we will have some substantive, trustworthy ⁓ hope to cling to. And so with that, Alisa, I'm so glad you're my first guest to be able to share your heart because I have seen your heart and I don't know, I feel like I'm tearing up now, but I've watched you walk. Alisa Childers (15:28) You Teasi (15:38) And I don't know what you're going to share with us, but I have watched you walk what you say and I have seen the personal cost in your life at times for what you do for others to bring hope to others. And I just I love your heart and I'm really excited for our listeners to hear more from you because you are ⁓ just a treasure. And so I'm going to stop talking and just let you start wherever you'd like to start. Alisa Childers (16:06) Well, thank you. ⁓ So, you know, as I was thinking about what I would share, a few different scenarios came to mind. And I think if it's okay with you, what I'd like to do is share one story of something that was like a one-time experience that happened at it in a particular period of time. And then the second one is sort of something that's ongoing, something that is sort of a continual thing that I face at varying levels of weight, depending on the day. Teasi (16:33) Yeah. Alisa Childers (16:35) So I'll start with the first one. And this is an experience that you understand quite a bit about because you went through something very similar with your brother. ⁓ But in 2019, so this was just to give context of the time frame. I had started my blog in 2016. I started my podcast in 2017. And then I started my YouTube channel in 2020. So this was kind of in between starting my podcast and my YouTube channel. But I already had a book deal. was writing my first book. It had not come out yet, but I was in the process. I'd already turned it in. And so I was well on my way in this apologetics journey. guess that's the point of me saying that, is that I had studied all the stuff. There's always more that we're always learning and studying, of course, but I had basically done the work to land. And I had landed, and I was sharing this publicly. I was a public quote unquote, apologist. I still sort of... Teasi (17:21) Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (17:31) recoil at calling myself that because I know so little compared to so many others, but ⁓ it's just a journey I've been on. But in 2019, ⁓ Thanksgiving was just one of the most memorable Thanksgiving's that we had in our family. Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday, by the way, I love Thanksgiving. And we had everybody ⁓ just, you know, some of our, ⁓ nieces and ⁓ don't live in town, everybody was in town. And ⁓ I think if I remember that right, and ⁓ two days after Thanksgiving, my older sister and myself and my daughter, I believe, were at a movie. And we get out of the movie and we get a call that my nephew Matthew, who was 21 years old, ⁓ had something had happened. I didn't really know what it was at the time, but they said, they used the phrase non-responsive. And I did not. I don't know if it was God's mercy, I didn't know what that meant, but I think other people did know what that meant. And so I was kind of calm thinking, oh, it's nothing, he'll be fine. He's just, he's in the hospital, something happened, I don't know. And I was trying to just be kind of calm. But I, now I've shared parts of this story, but I've never shared like this much of this story. But I, so I went home and basically, I went into the bathroom and my sister called me, Matthew's mother. And this is our beloved, the first boy in our family. We had just a whole bunch of girls and then Matthew. And Matthew's 21. And so his mom, my older sister called me and I remember on the phone, she just said he didn't make it. And I was like, wait, what? Like, what is even, I felt like I wasn't even in my body. was like, what is happening right now? Teasi (19:14) you Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (19:24) ⁓ It really was just like the biggest shock of my life because everybody just adored Matthew. He was just our little love muffin. We just loved this guy. In fact, we had this thing called, we called it man love because he was the only guy, the only little boy. We'd be like, I need some man love, Matt. And he'd come over and give you some cuddles or loves or whatever. ⁓ And he still did it when he was 21, even though he would never admit it. you know, he was just very affectionate with us and we just loved him so much. And I was just like, what? Teasi (19:41) ⁓ it's so sweet. Alisa Childers (19:53) I don't even have a way to process this. So because I didn't want to upset my family, I had to put the kids to bed. And I didn't even tell Mike at that point because I didn't want him to be upset. I just wanted everybody, I don't know, this is just my choice I made. I just wanted everybody to go to bed. But I told Mike I'm gonna go to the hospital and I went. So being at the hospital and you know, Of course, don't want to give too many details about my sister because that's her story to tell, but being there for her and ⁓ all that was involved in that, and then going in and seeing him, ⁓ you know, his body. And it was just honestly the most traumatic thing I had been through at that point. ⁓ And having very little exposure to death too. I mean, both of my grandparents had died in my life and that was about it. Teasi (20:27) Hmm. Mm. Mm. Alisa Childers (20:50) So ⁓ it was very shocking. And so the reason I'm kind of giving all this detail is because when I went into the room, I probably wouldn't have gone into the room unless I thought my sister needed me to. so I did for her. ⁓ But just looking at him, I don't know how to describe it. It was literally like all of the goodness and hope and love and light that you could possibly imagine was just sucked out of the universe. Teasi (21:19) Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (21:19) And everything felt meaningless. Everything, was like pure nihilism. And if anyone's unfamiliar with that word, just nihilism is the complete absence of goodness and beauty and anything meaningful. And that's what it felt like. It just felt like the universe is meaningless. This is all, we're just sacks of meat on a ⁓ clump of dirt flying in the universe and it all means nothing. And like, that's the thoughts that I had. It was just indescribably dark and void of meaning. Teasi (21:40) Yeah. Alisa Childers (21:50) But at the same time, when I was looking at Matthew, his body, there was just this thought at the same time of Jesus. that, you know, we think so much about Jesus' life and his resurrection, but I'd never really pondered his death. And I view that moment as a gift because to look death that much in the face, and other people have more experience with death and maybe be more used to it, but I just wasn't. It was just like, Teasi (22:07) Mm. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (22:19) this is such a shock. And so I just remember thinking, that's what Jesus did. Like he was dead. Like his body was dead. And I don't know what it was about that, that it didn't minister to me in the moment. I just still felt really dark. But all of that was kind of held together. And so ⁓ that moment felt really dark. But what I thought in that moment, and this is where the apologetics comes in, is I remember thinking, If I had not done all of this study to know with my mind as much as I know that two plus two equals four, that this thing is true, I could see myself going down a very different road from that point. ⁓ I could see myself maybe deconstructing and ⁓ becoming very much, I don't know if I could become an atheist, maybe agnostic, just like who knows, you know? And I think that was a very defining moment in my life. Teasi (23:02) Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (23:18) where I chose to believe what my mind knew was true because my heart couldn't feel it at all. But then... Teasi (23:23) Mm-hmm. Did you feel that all that in that room or was that kind of a period of time? that awareness that you could deconstruct, you could without, was that more of like a... Alisa Childers (23:38) Yeah, don't know if I formulated the thought in that moment about what I could have done. I don't know if I even didn't think of that until just now. I think I could have. No, I wasn't thinking that way. I think what I was just thinking is I made a choice to believe what my mind knew was true. And I guess that's the main... I found myself in that moment going, my feelings say... Teasi (23:42) Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Alisa Childers (24:07) This is all meaningless. There is no God. There is nothing good in the world. There's no hope. What is the purpose of this? Why would God do this if God exists? So this, you it was just like total darkness. And at the same time, I think even in that moment, I was thinking, but I know because of the facts and the evidence that this is true. And I also, now I didn't think of this part through at the time, but as time went on, I started to think about it. Teasi (24:14) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (24:34) the Christian worldview actually gives you a framework within which that actually does make sense. are going, know, once you think about the theology of suffering and here's some comfort. So some comfort that I didn't feel any comfort that night, I'll be honest. In fact, even the next day I woke up with this real traumatic like image in my head and kind of like almost in the movies where you wake up and for a split second you forgot it's all happened and then the image of the, you know, comes right back and it's like right there in your face and you're like, oh. Teasi (24:39) Mm-hmm. Yep. Alisa Childers (25:04) And then I had to tell the kids and told Mike and ⁓ Mike was very understanding about why I chose not. I just had to hold myself together. I think if I would have told him, I would have fallen apart, but I had to be there for my sister. had to be in a sense, I sort of felt like I had to be one of the strong ones. I'm, you know, we all have our role to play in those things and I'm glad that I did choose that. But, ⁓ so, but, here's the thing. Okay. So a couple of things. So over the course of the next two or three weeks, the Teasi (25:12) Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (25:34) It's indescribable after I made that intellectual choice. It's indescribable how present God made himself. don't know how to describe, I don't know if I've got words, but the goodness of God, the total, seems in the human realm to be irrational, like the goodness of God in the whole thing, the ⁓ faithfulness of God in the whole thing. And then one of the sweetest things that I... that I've ever experienced was at his funeral. He had two funerals because my sister was from California and he had gone to high school there. they had one in California, but the one in Nashville was the first one. And it was like the one that was right after it happened. And I got to sing with his sister, my niece, Lauren. And it was honestly one of the most, I'll never forget that experience in all my life, us singing together. And then also just my dad singing. So my dad being saved for decades and decades out of the hippie culture. And you know, when your grandchild dies suddenly, it's like there is, that's a test. I mean, like, okay, do we believe this or not? And just watching the faithfulness of my family, of, you know, God working throughout the decades of my family's life through Teasi (26:51) Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (27:00) drug addiction, alcohol addiction, all sorts of mental stuff, illness, and just, you know, humble, my humbled sweet dad singing one of his most popular songs that is, you know, called sometimes Hallelujah at his funeral was just like, I don't know, there's something about that that just really touched me. seeing God show up with the ⁓ emotional help was huge too. But even if it hadn't. I think it was the intellectual, solid intellectual foundation that I had given myself that really got me through that. Teasi (27:39) Yeah, so gosh, so much of that I could totally relate to, as you said with my brother. But when what I would love for you to share just a little bit more is like when you said that you you experienced God's goodness and his faithfulness in the following week. Alisa Childers (27:44) I know. Teasi (27:59) What did that, do you have an example of what that looked like in your life? Was it mostly a feeling or did you see his something from his word actually playing out in your day? What did that goodness and that faithfulness look like? Alisa Childers (28:11) Yeah. You know, ⁓ yes, for sure, in his word. In fact, I remember I had already turned my book in and my editors were so gracious to let me add. So I actually tell a little bit, a thumbnail sketch of that story in the book, Another Gospel, even though the book was done, they just, they were like, yes, please, you know, take some space and write about it if you need to. And so I did. in the, you know, Teasi (28:40) That was nice. Alisa Childers (28:46) There was so much in God's Word that ministered to me at that time, consider it pure joy. It's like I grew up sort of adjacent to the prosperity gospel, so my parents, didn't buy into, like we were supposed to be rich and have cars and stuff or anything like that. And I didn't actually grow up learning that in church, but in the Charismatic Church, it's sort of like you're always sort of adjacent to the prosperity gospel. It's gonna come in from somewhere. And I was really exposed to that as a young adult. Teasi (28:56) Mm-hmm. You Alisa Childers (29:13) I think it just kind of gets in you that you sort of expect that if you're a Christian, God's going to bless your life. You're going to have the abundance of wealth and health and you're not going to suffer. And that's so the opposite of what the Bible teaches. So really getting into the theology of suffering, I think, is what really helped me too. Knowing that, you know, I remember, I joke about this sometimes, but my sweet grandma who loved the Lord, faithful, wonderful woman of God, but she gave me this little promise book that had like, 135 Bible verses all taken out of context. You're going to be blessed in the city and blessed in the field and all those things. I think it just got in my bones that this won't happen to us. Something like this would never happen to my family. Even repenting of that bad theology ⁓ throughout this time and especially throughout that week coming face to face with what the scriptures actually do say about Teasi (29:43) Gosh, Yeah. Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (30:10) suffering. Talking about the promises, if you want to really talk about the promises that are in Scripture, it's that you'll be persecuted, that in this world you will have trouble. ⁓ But the be of good cheer because I've overcome the world part is what I experienced so powerfully in that really initial week or two where you realize in those moments how important it is to not have just a here and now perspective, which is what progressive Christianity will give you. Teasi (30:16) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Alisa Childers (30:37) It's like, yeah, it's all about the here and now. But as Christians, we have an eternal perspective. I wish that I would have pulled up this GK Chesterton quote that I read in this book, Orthodoxy. So I'll have to just give sort of a picture of what it is. But there's something in that book where he describes all the other religions as being people who are really focused on the here and now, as far as like, I'm going to detach in the Buddhist way from suffering. I'm going to detach from... these things, or I'm going to handle my suffering with this eightfold path, or this thing, or that thing, or this meditative practice, or this practice. It's all about kind of mediating the here and now. Whereas the Christians are like the people with eyes turned out and gnarled fingers, and we're just like, we're looking out almost like these crazy people to everybody else because it's different. The gospel is just different. The gospel is an eternal perspective, which gives us the strength and the hope and the worldview. Teasi (31:26) Yeah. Alisa Childers (31:33) be able to walk through the temporary sufferings as Paul said ⁓ for the eternal weight of glory that we're looking forward to. So I think it was probably a whole lot of different promises from Scripture as far as like you're going to suffer, this is going to be hard, this world is difficult, and you're going to suffer, you're going to be sick, you're going to die, it's going to be hard. But I'll tell you one other one from Scripture and then I want to tell you another one too, but another way that the Lord ⁓ kind of ministered. But the other one is Teasi (31:34) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Alisa Childers (32:03) I took great comfort in the sovereignty of God. think for the first time, I really like grasped God's sovereignty. I kind of joke this way, but you know, I'm not a Calvinist as far as, you know, the idea that almost everything is determined by God. And I know that that's not what every Calvinist teaches, but in my mind, that would be the end game, would be just determined. Like you don't have free will, it's just determined. But like for like five days, I felt like I was a Calvinist. I was like. Teasi (32:06) Mm. Mm-hmm. Hahaha Alisa Childers (32:31) I really was like, I think I get Calvinism for like five days because it was like, Matthew was never going to live past this day. This is God's sovereign plan. And there was something in that that I took comfort in. And I do believe that God is sovereign. So I don't mean to say that I don't believe that. ⁓ But I'm still not entirely sure how our choices work in tandem with how God works out his sovereignty. I was like, I get it. I was like full on. Teasi (32:39) Mm-hmm. Right. Alisa Childers (32:58) hard cage stage Calvinists for like five days. But I got it. you know, anyway, so that was one thing. But another way that the Lord really minister was through other people. There was an old family friend that got in her car from Atlanta and drove five hours and just literally like had no agenda, ⁓ just showed up at the door, bought everybody dinner, sat on the couch and just grieved with us. Like that, that was amazing to me. I learned so much from her. Teasi (33:01) I'm saying. Mm. Alisa Childers (33:25) that she would do that. Like, who does that? Who goes into a home where everybody's grieving and just sits and is quiet and cries with us? Like, amazing. And then the flood of people that brought us food and ⁓ the people that stopped by, you came by to give us a little care package of things that we might need, because we might not think to go buy dish liquid this week and tissues and all that stuff. And it was just... ⁓ Seeing the body of Christ really shine was beautiful as well. Teasi (33:59) Yeah, yeah. Well, I just, you know, it's so interesting how obvious and explicit the promises for suffering are in Scripture and how easy it is to miss it. Like how we overlook that or we are taught to expect something different, but it is, I mean, and I can't, I don't know exactly where it says it, but I'm pretty sure Scripture refers to the fellowship of Christ's sufferings. Alisa Childers (34:12) Yes. Teasi (34:29) And I wanna know more about that. Like, I almost am afraid to say that because I've already walked through so many seasons. But I mean, I'm reminded of like the fellowship of the rings, know, or fellowships, how it's these, you know, kind of groups of honor that you can only be a part of if you've achieved certain qualifications. And for us to be a part of the fellowship of Christ's sufferings is something really beautiful. And we can't be a part of it without walking through. Alisa Childers (34:33) Yeah. Nobody wants to pray that prayer, right? Teasi (34:59) these seasons. ⁓ yeah, I love, mean, thank you for sharing how God's goodness, how you saw his goodness and his faithfulness, not only through his word, but through the community. ⁓ Because sometimes we don't know what to be looking for. Sometimes we're thinking it's gonna show up in some heavenly host descending into our room and trumpets and fanfare and everything's gonna be made right, right away. Alisa Childers (35:29) Right. Teasi (35:29) But oftentimes that isn't that's not the way we experience his goodness or his faithfulness. It's like over over time and through different various ⁓ avenues. But ⁓ so you briefly mentioned well you mentioned that evidence kind of came to your rescue a lot during that season and walking through that with your nephew and losing him the side of heaven. But do you have like when you are Alisa Childers (35:52) Mm-hmm. Teasi (35:59) really struggling when you're tempted to doubt God's goodness or his faithfulness. Do you have a specific line of evidence that is your go-to like that really comes quickly to the rescue when you're doubting? Alisa Childers (36:02) Mm-hmm. You know, honestly, for me, it's the cosmological argument. I know that. I don't know why that it's so it's what I come back to. I would say it's that one and then the evidence for the resurrection, probably. ⁓ So, you know, when you when you know, I'm not a philosopher and I'm not particularly sophisticated philosophically. But when you think about when we say the cosmological argument, what we're talking about is basically like three to premises and a conclusions. Teasi (36:15) Okay. Alisa Childers (36:41) logical syllogism that starts with, ⁓ everything that begins to exist must have a cause. That's premise one. you know, we think about that, that's pretty obvious. Everything that begins to exist must have a cause. Nothing pops into existence out of nothing. Because nothing really is nothing. It's not something that we call nothing. It's not the quantum foam. It's not, you know, it's nothing which means it doesn't exist. Teasi (36:58) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (37:07) I almost said something that doesn't exist. No, because it's not something. It just doesn't exist. Nothing doesn't exist. So something doesn't come from nothing. Everybody knows that. That's instinctive, right? You don't even have to be a scientist. So everything that begins to exist must have a cause. And then we know from Big Bang cosmology, we know from now, it's really interesting that when scientists discovered the spiritual implications of the Big Bang, they are constantly trying to rework it. Teasi (37:34) Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (37:37) to make it not say what it actually says. That's my layman's view of that. Of course, there's the movie Theory of Everything, where it sort of chronicles ⁓ Stephen Hawking's struggle with that very idea that what he had discovered actually kind of proves God. So what do I do with it? And so I got to rework it. So ⁓ the universe had a beginning. Everything that begins to exist must have a cause. The universe had a beginning. That's the second premise. I may have said that wrong the first time. ⁓ Teasi (37:37) Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Alisa Childers (38:07) But we know scientifically that the universe had a beginning. We know it hasn't existed forever. And so therefore, the logical conclusion must be that the universe had a cause. So nobody can get around that. For me, like for an atheist to say that the entirety of space, time, and matter exploded into existence out of something that doesn't exist, which is nothing. Teasi (38:17) Mm-hmm. Right. Alisa Childers (38:35) is a much greater miracle. That is a much bigger, it would take so much more faith to believe that than it actually having a cause. And so if you think about what kind of cause it would be, well, what would cause all of space and time and matter to explode into existence out of something that doesn't exist? Well, it would have to be causeless. It would have to be something that itself didn't have a cause because if it had a cause, then it would have to have a cause. If it began to exist, it would have to have a cause. Teasi (38:37) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Alisa Childers (39:05) So it's causeless, which means it has no beginning, which means it's also outside of time because it caused all of time to begin to exist. It would have to be spaceless, immaterial, because it caused space to exist. And then if you really just think about it logically, it would also have to be a personal, something that could make decisions because you think about how finely tuned our universe is and how just everything is sort of working together for life to be possible and more specifically human life. Teasi (39:13) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (39:34) and ⁓ it would have to be immensely powerful. So now we're starting to talk about what really sounds like the God of the Hebrew Bible, right? Now that doesn't get you to Christianity, but it definitely rules out polytheism. It rules out pantheism, you know, which is the idea that the universe is God. Now, if the universe existed eternally, it could be God, you could, but we know that it doesn't. So... Teasi (39:44) Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (40:03) I think that's the one I start with. always go back to that one. ⁓ And then I think, I mean, could, get, now I get exhilarated, to use your word. I could go on to the moral argument and all these other ones, but I'll try to keep it simple. Let somebody else do that one. I, you know, and then I think resurrection, you know, one of the things that really shook my faith when I was in that class at that church was people were saying, well, there's no evidence for Jesus outside the Bible. So what do you do with that? Ha, you know? And I was like, Teasi (40:12) I know, I know, yeah. Yeah. Alisa Childers (40:31) What do I do with that? But then I started thinking, well, wait, is that even true? And it turns out I did a real deep dive on this. ⁓ It's not true. Within 150 years of his life, there's about at least 10 non-Christian, non-Christian historical sources that talk about Jesus as a historical person. what we can know from those things are quite amazing. We can know that he was known to be wise and virtuous, that he had a brother named James, that he was crucified under Pontius Pilate. Teasi (40:35) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (41:00) that his closest believers at least believed they saw him alive after he was dead and that they had radical changes in their life after that. ⁓ And there's more, you know, think it seems to me like it really, Christianity makes sense. I think it makes sense of reality. And it also is satisfying in that it gives you a theological framework through which to live your life, especially when hard things happen like that. Teasi (41:28) I agree. I'm not an expert on comparative worldviews, but what I have studied is enough to show me that naturalistic views and the transcendental views offer no hope for suffering. It's something you got by the luck of the draw or something that's your own fault because you should just get rid of your desires and then you wouldn't suffer pain or something like that. And the biblical worldview. Alisa Childers (41:43) Yeah. Yeah. Teasi (41:58) I mean, it's just, it includes suffering. We expect it. We fellowship with Jesus through it. And there's hope. Like you said, this isn't all. It's not that we wanna just float through this earthly life as if it doesn't matter or that we don't wanna be a part of things and work to help steward the world and the people in it. But we do have this hope that transcends what we're walking through today. So I'm with you. feel like those are my two main lines of yes, because I you know, the the evidence for God the cosmological argument just like, okay, God exists. And then the resurrection it's all they're like bookends. It's almost like God exists and the resurrection shows me that God is Jesus, you know, so like if I have those two, then I can feel like, all right, I don't understand what's going on in my life. I don't get this. I don't feel God. I don't see you know, in those really dark times at least. Alisa Childers (42:30) Are they? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's right. Teasi (42:56) And that's like what I said, the safety net of those two simple lines of evidence come to my rescue more often than I can say to just help me cling to Jesus in the midst of the doubt. Like, just don't let go. I'm often reminded of, and this is such a silly thing to bring up, but in the movie Titanic, you know, we see Rose, she's floating on that door. You know, everyone's in the ocean. Alisa Childers (43:18) Mm-hmm. Teasi (43:25) and she's floating on that door and we hear her say, you know, I'll never let go, Jack. But then the next moment you see his lifeless body just sinking to the bottom of the ocean, but we all know there was plenty of room on that door for him. Like there's, I'm not, it's funny how many people have like, you know, worked it out. Like you could see there's even like pool floaties that are like the size of the boat. Anyway, I feel like, I mean, to me, what I'm imagining is, Alisa Childers (43:34) Yeah. Yeah, worked it out. Yeah, yeah. Teasi (43:53) I just want everyone to like, there's plenty of space on the door for Jesus. Like in the evidence, I don't know if that analogy is silly, but there's plenty of room. If you will learn just a little bit of this evidence, it will give you the ability to just cling to him and hold fast to the hope while you figure out some of the theological difficulties or the circumstantial things you're walking. Like give Jesus time, give him space to be present and ⁓ to comfort you. Alisa Childers (43:59) Mm-hmm. It's good, yeah. Teasi (44:23) in the seasons and what you're walking through. But so you also just one thing you mentioned too, I don't know if you can just share just a little bit more about is you mentioned how progressive Christianity and I know you've done a lot about this. You've written about this a lot, but is there a specific way that you see progressive? Like maybe can you just quickly define what progressive Christianity is for anyone that might not be familiar with it like just real quickly, but what's an example of where that what they have on offer just falls so Alisa Childers (44:48) Yeah. Teasi (44:53) far flat. Alisa Childers (44:54) Yeah, okay, so progressive Christianity, you've all seen it probably on social media. It's basically a movement that's coming up and out of the evangelical church that basically, you know, and I'm going to very much overgeneralize. And so, you know, obviously there are ⁓ varying degrees of belief in progressive Christianity and not everybody who calls themselves a progressive Christian is going to agree with what I'm about to say. But as I've analyzed the thought leaders, the people that are leading the movement, generally speaking, they deny that human beings are sinful by nature. Teasi (45:06) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (45:24) They deny that human sin separates us from God. They're going to deny that Jesus' death on the cross was substitutionary. they're, you know, many will deny that there was a physical resurrection. Well, if you don't have a physical resurrection, you don't have a physical ascension and you don't have a physical second coming. So that pretty much obliterates the gospel. But they're also going to imbibe all of the tenets of the contemporary critical theory social justice that we see, maybe what we might. Teasi (45:43) Yeah. Alisa Childers (45:53) in the common vernacular called wokeness and the full spectrum of LGBTQ plus affirmation and inclusion. So that's all going to be under the banner of progressive Christianity. Teasi (45:55) Mm-hmm. It seems like that just completely annihilates hope because it, mean, what hope do you have if Jesus didn't really rise from the grave in a physical body or as the first fruits like to give us an example of what we have to look forward to? mean, I, you know. Alisa Childers (46:10) Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's true. Like progressive Christianity, you you asked me like, first, maybe a specific example of how it removes hope. You know, I was just listening to a podcast the other day of a progressive Lutheran minister, Nadia Bolzweber, and the guy from the office, what's his name? Rainn Wilson, who's a, he's of the Baha'i faith. And it was just like, they were just having this love fest. And by the way, I don't mean to oversimplify it. They actually both had some really good wisdom. And I believe that they're very Teasi (46:40) yeah, right. Alisa Childers (46:49) much really trying to pursue a good religion in their, you whatever they think that might be. So I'm not saying that they're just, you know, morons, they're smart people. But it was just interesting how they could almost agree on everything. The progressive Christian and the Baha'i could agree on everything because there's no eternal perspective. It's just sort of like, what am going to do now to make my life, to be a better person, to do more good in the world? And those are good things. You want to be a good person, you want to do good in the world. But there's not like this Teasi (47:11) Right? Alisa Childers (47:15) Like that Chesterton thing, the eyes turned out. They can all agree because you don't have to surrender yourself to anything. You don't have to deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow Jesus in progressive Christianity. And so it removes hope because you don't have the hope of heaven. ⁓ Now, what's interesting is most progressive Christians are universalists and that they don't believe in the reality of a place of punishment in the afterlife called hell. Teasi (47:30) Mm-hmm. Right. Alisa Childers (47:45) So they think everybody's going to heaven, but it's so undefined what that even is. And what is the progressive heaven? everybody with... ⁓ You can just bring your sin into heaven, and then heaven's just what, like hell now? Or like earth right now that's not looking too great? So it removes hope of eternity. It removes assurance of salvation because they actually take away the concept of actual salvation. ⁓ Teasi (47:51) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (48:12) There's a Jesus that can stand in solidarity with you, but he can't save you. so I think it removes hope in the way that every other false religion removes hope, is that it's removing from you the actual cure to the thing that will heal you. And it will just give you maybe a good band-aid, maybe a nice band-aid that does help a little bit in some areas, but it's not going to cure the disease. And the disease is sin. And what's so interesting, even in that podcast, how Teasi (48:29) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (48:41) They wouldn't use the word sin. It was very interesting the way she framed it. She framed it as the trance about the distractions. And actually it was some good stuff she said about how we're so addicted to our phones and ⁓ materialism and things like that. But in her mind it's like the problem is the trance. It's the capitalist system. That's what is... And it's like, no, it's actually sin. It's your sin. It's my sin. That corrupts the capitalist system. Teasi (49:02) Ugh. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (49:10) It's not the system that's corrupt, it's us that corrupt it because of sin. And that's ultimately just the fundamental difference is if you don't think you're a sinner in need of salvation, then you're going to find the cross ugly. You're going to find the whole thing kind of harsh and stupid. But if you know you're a sinner, if you know the depths of your own depravity, you may not feel that way. Teasi (49:11) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it changes. It's such the cross is beautiful when you understand. And I think what's interesting about what you just that picture you painted of, you know, the temporary hope, I guess, that progressive Christianity would offer is it's so really, it's just putting the burden on me. It puts the burden on us to be a good person, to make our reality great. But what do we do when we know darn good and well, when we look in the mirror in the morning that we can't do it? Alisa Childers (49:35) Yeah. Yeah, right. Teasi (49:58) What do you do? Like I love not have, I love having a savior. I love not having to save myself. I mean, when I hear things like be the hero of your own story, I'm like, please, I don't want to be. I can't be. That is the, no, that's the most depressing story of all. If I am the one that needs to be the hero of my own story and it's all on me. So I, I'm so thankful for the hope that's in, that we find in scripture and thank you for. Alisa Childers (50:10) Yeah, I'm not as good of a hero as God is anyway. Teasi (50:29) for helping to just put flesh on that in a situation in your own life for us. Before we close, I know we're coming up on an hour here, we're getting close, but I would love for you, like, do you have any just final words of encouragement? as you look back on that season and having walked through it, the pain, the promise from God, the substantiation of that, have you seen the fruit of that in your life? Alisa Childers (50:32) Mm-hmm. Teasi (50:58) ⁓ So this is two things. I guess start with that. Like what lasting fruit do you see? How did God use that suffering for good in your life? I guess as a continuing good and then you can wrap it up with any final words of encouragement you might have for people that are hurting today and listening. Alisa Childers (51:08) Mm. Well, I think it definitely rattled my cage in some of the theological paradigms that I just sort of had accepted uncritically. ⁓ And it caused me to even do a deeper dive into what I really do believe theologically about different, you know, secondary issues, but ones that are really important to how you're going to live your life and how you see God and how you see humans. And so I think what it did is it gave me a higher view of God's sovereignty. Teasi (51:36) Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (51:46) And it's it's in a weird way. I can't explain this because I know for other people it might have the opposite effect but it actually caused me to trust him even more and to realize that We're not exempt from anything. Like I think I always just in the back of my head thought well nothing like that will ever happen to one of my kids like that and now I know that it easily could it could I might be the parent at the hospital receiving that news and it could be tomorrow it could be today and ⁓ Teasi (52:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Alisa Childers (52:15) And to just have that in the—I don't mean that in a pessimistic approach to the world kind of way, but hold everything in your hands very lightly and put God first. Because if you are loyal to Jesus first, before even your husband and your children, and you love God more than you love your children and your husband, then you trust Him with them. Like, I can't imagine loving anybody more than I love my children. Teasi (52:19) Right. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (52:45) I can't fathom it. ⁓ But constantly saying, I still have to put God before them, because that's what's better for them anyway. to know that, and this is the hope of being a Christian, is that even if the worst possible thing you could imagine happens, like whatever that is for you, whatever the worst case scenario that you could imagine, like that would be the hardest thing I could possibly go through, everybody's got something in their mind, ⁓ to know that you could walk through that with Christ. Because Teasi (52:51) Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (53:13) Our hope is not in our circumstances. Our hope is in the eternal reality of what God is doing in the world. And we're trusting that so that even when there are things we encounter that we don't understand that are totally disorienting, we have an anchor, we have a foundation that we can go stand on and say, I'm not going to sink with the ship because I know that God is good. I know that he is just. I know that he is a just judge. He will do right by every single individual person. Teasi (53:16) Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (53:43) ⁓ and knowing that he is in control, that there's nothing that happens outside of his control. And again, I don't know how that works out, how he works that out in conjunction with our free will, but I trust him. And I know that ultimately, even if something was my fault or I caused this, that ultimately there's always a path forward for redemption. There's always forgiveness. There's always hope. Teasi (53:58) Mm-hmm. Alisa Childers (54:12) that lies ahead in the eternal perspective that Christians have. And so I try to keep my eyes on that. Teasi (54:19) I love that. So basically what I heard you saying and I get what you mean about God's sovereignty kind of shining is basically it just, it sounds like you were able to move your faith in the direction of being anchored in Him and His character and not circumstances. And that's like, I know, I mean, that's exactly what you just said, but it's just this paradigm shift. It's like, ⁓ it's not, my hope isn't anchored in everything working out the way I always thought it would. My hope is anchored in an unchanging God who is always good and faithful. And then we know we don't want bad things to happen. We're not hoping for that, but we can have assurance that we'll be okay. Alisa Childers (54:49) Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I'll say one more thing because I think it's really important and not to go too long, but ⁓ you know, when you think about ⁓ the incarnation, every other worldview gives, you know, this issue that we're dealing with is really what we call in apologetics, the problem of suffering, the problem of evil. And every worldview tries to give an answer for that. Like, how do you explain all the evil in the world? But the Christian answer to me is so compelling because you don't just have an answer, you have a God who becomes the answer. Teasi (55:22) Yeah. Alisa Childers (55:34) You have Jesus stepping into creation, God in flesh, and then suffering alongside us. It says in Isaiah, he was despised and rejected by man, a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. And so he knows grief. In his full humanity, I mean, you couldn't make that up. You could not make that up. It doesn't make sense. It's hard for us to understand. But we have a God who literally stepped into creation to become the answer to evil, take our... Because ultimately, it's coming all from sin. Teasi (55:34) So good. Yeah. Mm-hmm. No. Alisa Childers (56:02) takes those sins upon himself, dies on the cross so that those who trust him can have their sins forgiven, reconciled to a holy God, and then ultimately so he can keep his promise to wipe away every tear from our eye. ⁓ And it's not just something you do, it's a person. And that's what's so different about Christianity. Teasi (56:21) Yeah, I love that. That is the perfect way for us to end. ⁓ It's so true and I hope that those of you that have been listening today feel encouraged or at least just can put some of this truth that we've been talking about just in your heart and kind of pray about it mull it over that you'll know that you're not alone and that you will just ⁓ lean into just a desire maybe to even study more of your own on your own. And I am going to put in the show notes some a way for you to find more to learn more from Alisa to find how to connect with her and her work and also some resources for you if you're interested in just some beginning apologetics or just learning how to read God's word more faithfully for yourself. But if you have been encouraged or you know someone who would really be encouraged, which I think everyone would be encouraged by this, but if you have a friend that you know of right now who's just really struggling and could use this conversation to bring hope and true comfort to them, I would love it if you would share it with them and then ⁓ subscribe to the podcast so that you don't miss a moment of true comfort. Thank you so much for joining us.