Latest / Yaron Brook Show / Conversation with Dr. Amesh Adalja — Infectious Diseases & Risky Health Policies| Yaron Brook Show

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Conversation with Dr. Amesh Adalja — Infectious Diseases & Risky Health Policies| Yaron Brook Show · Yaron Brook Show

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Though radical fundamental principles out freedom, rational self interest, and
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: individual runs. This is the ran Brook Show.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Oh height, everybody, welcome to your one book show on
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  Speaker 2: this Monday, March thirtieth. Uh and uh, this is second
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: show of the day. And I am really happy to
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  Speaker 2: have amash Adlogia back, doctor Amachidelgia, who is a leading
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  Speaker 2: expert infectious disease pandemic preparedness by a security uh seenor
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  Speaker 2: scholar at John Hopkins and an adjunct assistant professor at
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  Speaker 2: John Hopkins Bloomboog School of Public Health. And I could
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  Speaker 2: go on and on and on. He's been on the
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  Speaker 2: show several times. Uh, it was on quite a bit
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  Speaker 2: during COVID. It was my main resource during the COVID pandemics.
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  Speaker 2: So thanks, thanks for coming back, Amish.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me of course.
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  Speaker 2: So we were just talking before the show about this
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  Speaker 2: TV show I really liked, and I think we talked
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  Speaker 2: about it when we last I saw you. Which is
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  Speaker 2: the pit and it's kind of emergency emergency room and
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  Speaker 2: it's super dramatic and and you're also an emergency, an
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  Speaker 2: emergency physician, so you've also worked in emergency rooms. So
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  Speaker 2: just just what's your what's your pression of the show
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  Speaker 2: and when and and how how act it is to
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  Speaker 2: what actually happens in emergency rooms.
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  Speaker 3: Sure.
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  Speaker 4: So I have a special affection for that show because
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  Speaker 4: it's called The Pit. The pit stands for the emergency
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  Speaker 4: department being a pit, but also Pittsburgh, where I was
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  Speaker 4: speaking to you from. And it's set at a hospital
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  Speaker 4: called Alleghany General Hospital, which is where I did my
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  Speaker 4: combined internal and emergency medicine residency from two to seven,
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  Speaker 4: So I know that whole place, and all the outside
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  Speaker 4: scenes are where I spent my residency. I'm talking to
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  Speaker 4: maybe a mile or two miles from that hospital. So
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  Speaker 4: I really like that show, and I think it is
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  Speaker 4: probably the most accurate medical show that we've seen. And
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  Speaker 4: I think on one of your shows you talked about
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  Speaker 4: it not having a plot, and I think that's true.
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  Speaker 4: It's more slice of life of what it's like in
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  Speaker 4: the emergency department. The frenetic pace, the multitasking, the disasters
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  Speaker 4: happening one after another, and not having enough time to
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  Speaker 4: go to the bathroom or get or even drink a drink,
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  Speaker 4: a soda or whatever it may be.
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  Speaker 3: That's what it's like.
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  Speaker 4: And I do think it is very accurate in terms
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  Speaker 4: of portraying how the emergency medicine physician, the emergency nurse,
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  Speaker 4: how they operate, how they think the environment that they
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  Speaker 4: work in, and how stressful it can be, and how
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  Speaker 4: fast paced and how adrenaline rush from one minute to
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  Speaker 4: complete tragedy the next minute. That's definitely, definitely true. There's
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  Speaker 4: obviously some liberties there because it's a show and they
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  Speaker 4: can't have a million different characters, so they sometimes don't
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  Speaker 4: respect what one specialty does versus another specialty, and they
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  Speaker 4: sometimes embellish things like a medical student doing a procedure
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  Speaker 4: that they would never do. But I think it really
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  Speaker 4: is one of the best shows that we've seen. And
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  Speaker 4: I went to the American College or Emergency Physicians National
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  Speaker 4: conference last year and Noah Wiley, who is the star
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  Speaker 4: of the show, gave a big speech and people were
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  Speaker 4: in tears, some of the emergency doctors saying, you finally
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  Speaker 4: get us, because you know, oftentimes emergency medicine is kind
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  Speaker 4: of the bottom of the totem pole in terms of
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  Speaker 4: you get crapped on by everybody else, all the subspecial specialists,
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  Speaker 4: it's all and you see that on the show with
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  Speaker 4: the way one of the surgeons, the way the surgeons
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  Speaker 4: talk to the emergency that and then you're stuck with
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  Speaker 4: this patient, and you're stuck with kind of the seeing
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  Speaker 4: these low points in humanity sometimes and and there's no
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  Speaker 4: outlet for it. And I think this show is an outlet,
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  Speaker 4: and that's why it has such as such an audience
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  Speaker 4: among emergency positions. Similar to Er, which was created by
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  Speaker 4: the same person. John Wells was the creator of both
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  Speaker 4: The Pit and and and Your Yeah, and Carnegie Mellen
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  Speaker 4: Graduate where I went to. So there's a lot of
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  Speaker 4: Pittsburgh in both of those shows. But but The Pit
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  Speaker 4: is a really good show. And I've been analyzing some
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  Speaker 4: of the infectious disease cases there that have been fun
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  Speaker 4: to go through, measles and flesh eating bacteria and a
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  Speaker 4: nune with gonnerheia and or I. But it's I think
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  Speaker 4: it's the best that we've seen so far in terms
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  Speaker 4: of a medical show.
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  Speaker 2: So, so you're doing that on your YouTube channel.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I have a YouTube channel, but it's also on
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  Speaker 3: all my media.
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  Speaker 4: I have a YouTube channel just it's doctor Amish Adalga,
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  Speaker 4: but I also on x in Facebook. You'll go anywhere
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  Speaker 4: that I'm at you can find me. You'll find all
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  Speaker 4: my stuff, which is my regular media, plus this YouTube
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  Speaker 4: stuff that I've been experimenting with recently.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great, that's great.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I really enjoy the show. And it has no plot.
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  Speaker 2: It can't because of the I think, the essence of it.
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  Speaker 2: So they compensate, I think, for that by making it
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  Speaker 2: very much character driven. So and there is a sense
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  Speaker 2: of a plot among the lead characters, the relationships and
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  Speaker 2: kind of the psychological emotional path that they take.
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  Speaker 4: Because yeah, and even like the people in the waiting room,
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  Speaker 4: if you look like on episode one, some of those
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  Speaker 4: people in the waiting room become characters later on, just
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  Speaker 4: like just like if you were to walk through an
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  Speaker 4: emergency department now and then come back eight hours later,
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  Speaker 4: you say, oh, those are now patients now that are
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  Speaker 4: in the back, They're not in the waiting room anymore.
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  Speaker 4: So there's a lot of I think that's a really
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  Speaker 4: cool aspect of it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's part of the gimick of the
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  Speaker 2: show is that they every episode is an hour, and
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  Speaker 2: it's in real time. It's an hour that passes. So
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  Speaker 2: I don't know how many episodes are going to be
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  Speaker 2: this season, but it's twelve sixteen episodes. That will be
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  Speaker 2: twelve sixteen hours in the emergency room, So that is
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  Speaker 2: that it's really cool. Do you still do any we
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  Speaker 2: elence in emergency rooms.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do.
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  Speaker 4: I do probably like two to five shifts per month
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  Speaker 4: when I can squeeze them in, and they are somewhat
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  Speaker 4: much more grueling than when I'm doing infectious disease or
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  Speaker 4: critical care, just because I'm in the mix of it,
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  Speaker 4: and it can be but the whole reason I like
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  Speaker 4: emergency medicine or why I didn't have to do emergency
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  Speaker 4: medicine to become an infectious disease doctor, but I wanted
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  Speaker 4: to be there in the thick of it, especially when
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  Speaker 4: I'm dealing with infectious disease issues, because I didn't want
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  Speaker 4: to be this infectious disease doctor who pontificates to the
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  Speaker 4: to the emergency department this is how you should do it.
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  Speaker 4: I want to be the person that's there during COVID
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  Speaker 4: or during H one N one or mpox or whatever
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  Speaker 4: it might be, to know exactly what are the constraints
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  Speaker 4: of doing certain things, because you're like, well, why do
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  Speaker 4: they miss it? In the r You have to understand
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  Speaker 4: that fifteen things other things going on, so they don't
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  Speaker 4: have the ability to do that. So I like to
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  Speaker 4: have that, and I think it's given me a little
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  Speaker 4: bit of an edge over in my field that I'm
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  Speaker 4: also certified in emergency medicine and practice it, and also
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  Speaker 4: certified in critical care medicine and practice it. So I
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  Speaker 4: have a three sixty degree view of that problem, which
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  Speaker 4: I think is unique and helps me when I'm dealing
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  Speaker 4: and helps me when I'm dealing with all this policy
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  Speaker 4: stuff in Washington, because I'm in the mix of it
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  Speaker 4: in all different ways.
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  Speaker 2: So so in the midst of a world right now,
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  Speaker 2: the one you're on and you know you're on, there's
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  Speaker 2: been the threat of you on developing nuclear weapons, and
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  Speaker 2: of course that I'm Husseini and your rockneks door. There
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  Speaker 2: was the risk of oh, he had developed chemical weapons.
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  Speaker 2: There was always a question of how much, but he
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  Speaker 2: but he clearly used the chemical wations in the goods
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  Speaker 2: at some point. Your you're a specialist in kind of biosecurity,
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  Speaker 2: which I think is by biological warfare or biological agents.
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  Speaker 2: Is there any do we know anything about, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the Uranians maybe developing biological weapons. Is that a risk?
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  Speaker 2: Is that is that a potentiality a reality? Where where
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  Speaker 2: does that stand?
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  Speaker 4: So a lot of that data is classified, but we
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  Speaker 4: do know from the State Department's unclassified report that there
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  Speaker 4: is a concern that Iran has or was trying to
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  Speaker 4: develop an offensive biological weapons capacity, which means to use
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  Speaker 4: biological weapons as an element of war. And that might
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  Speaker 4: mean that they have labs that they've grown up certain
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  Speaker 4: agents in quantities that could be weaponized. That means that
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  Speaker 4: they've got scientists working on all of that, And that
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  Speaker 4: doesn't mean that there's a biological weapon that they have
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  Speaker 4: that they're going to deploy.
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  Speaker 3: That that's one. That's one possibility.
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  Speaker 4: But the other possibility that I think is even equally
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  Speaker 4: scary is you've got, now, like we talk about loose nukes,
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  Speaker 4: you might have loose biological material there, and you've got
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  Speaker 4: a country collapsing. So where is that loose biological material?
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  Speaker 4: Where's it going? Whose hands is it going to end
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  Speaker 4: up in? Is it going to end up in a
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  Speaker 4: terrorist group's hands, is it going to end up being
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  Speaker 4: is it gonna end up causing an accident? Is and
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  Speaker 4: where are those scientists going to go? Are they going
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  Speaker 4: to get recruited by North Korea, which also has an
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  Speaker 4: offensive biological weapons program. Are they going to get recruited
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  Speaker 4: by Russia, which has an offensive biological weapons program, or China.
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  Speaker 4: So I think there's a lot of questions about that,
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  Speaker 4: and it's been kind of under underplayed in the media.
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  Speaker 4: There's much more focus on the nuclear which is always
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  Speaker 4: the case that biological weapons are often when the nuclear
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  Speaker 4: weapon threat often will trounce the biological weapons threat. But
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  Speaker 4: I think these are more important, or these are just
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  Speaker 4: as important, I think as a weapon of mass destruction,
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  Speaker 4: and the psychological impact of a biological weapons attack is very,
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  Speaker 4: very different than any other type of weapons. So I
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  Speaker 4: think this is an important aspect to make sure that
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  Speaker 4: that you're talking about sending people in to get the uranium,
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  Speaker 4: they also need to think about securing the labs if
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  Speaker 4: there are labs.
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  Speaker 2: There is this the kind of stuff that you could
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  Speaker 2: put into a into a missile and launch or would
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  Speaker 2: it be destroyed when the missile impacts.
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  Speaker 4: So the Soviet Union was successfully able to weaponize certain
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  Speaker 4: pathogens that could be inside a warhead. Sometimes they use
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  Speaker 4: things like so anthrax is a special type of bacteria
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  Speaker 4: that forms spores, so they're much more hearty, so they
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  Speaker 4: could withstand sort of the pressure and the heat in
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  Speaker 4: a warhead. So the Soviet Union did weaponize certain certain
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  Speaker 4: biological ages to go into a warhead, and Saddam Hussein
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  Speaker 4: also did that. He had anthrax tip anthraxs warheads that
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: could be put on scud missiles. He never deployed them.
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  Speaker 4: This was during this was during Operation Desert Storm, that
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  Speaker 4: the evasion of Kuwait.
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  Speaker 3: There were there were concerns about that.
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  Speaker 4: That's why all the troops at that time were vaccinated
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  Speaker 4: against anthrax and they had They were really worried about
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  Speaker 4: his use of biological weapons because he did at that
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  Speaker 4: time have people like working that were kind of infamous,
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  Speaker 4: like doctor jerm that was that was one of and
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  Speaker 4: chemical ali There were some of these characters that were
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: doing all of this stuff in the need or as
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  Speaker 4: you said, he used chemical weapons on the Kurds. He
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  Speaker 4: used chemical weapons in the Iran Iraq war. So there
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  Speaker 4: were no qualms about using biological weapons. There's a separate
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  Speaker 4: story about what happens later with the biological weapons program,
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  Speaker 4: but at that time, yes, he had weaponized things that
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  Speaker 4: could go on to scuds.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the schedule falling in those days on
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Tel Aviv during that war, and and everybody had the
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: government had issued gas masks to everybody because the expectation
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: was that some of those warheads would be tipped with
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  Speaker 2: either chemical biological weapons.
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  Speaker 4: So yeah, for whatever reason, Yeah, that's what people's fear
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  Speaker 4: was at that time, and.
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  Speaker 2: Never happened, luckily. But yeah, I think he was afraid
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: of what would happen to him and his regime if
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: he actually I.
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  Speaker 4: Think that the unwritten policy might have been to the
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  Speaker 4: US would use a nuclear weapon and respond in defense
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  Speaker 4: if if someone used the biological weapons.
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  Speaker 3: So that might have been the issue.
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  Speaker 2: Yep. Well, I mean Trump is not threatening to destroy
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  Speaker 2: you on on a daily basis. I'm not sure you
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: could get any any more threats threatening than he is.
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  Speaker 2: So you know, they might have it again classified I assume.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: I assume these Raelis also know, you know, have the
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: classified information they're the ones bombing. I think a lot
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: of these sites, you would think that they have special
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: operations going in there and securing them or doing something
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: with them at some point, you know, when they get
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: the uranium out, maybe they can they can also do that.
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  Speaker 2: So talk a little bit about the general bio weapons threat.
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  Speaker 2: You know, how how significant is it in your assessment? Uh?
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  Speaker 2: And who are there? Who are the main players in
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  Speaker 2: terms of I assume that Chinese have a developed program,
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  Speaker 2: but but who are the other main players in in
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  Speaker 2: in this?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, So this is kind of an underappreciated threat, and
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  Speaker 4: it's always been an underappreciated threat, even though people have
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  Speaker 4: used biological weapons in in the BC era, people were
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: using biological weapons in terms of poisoning wells with fungus
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: and and so, so this isn't a new threat. But
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  Speaker 4: I would say right now, I think when you have
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: to kind of divide it into state actors and non
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: state actors. So when you think about the states, it
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: is the ones that you expect sort of the the
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: original access of evil type Russia, North Korea, Iran, UH,
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  Speaker 4: as well as China. And clearly Russia is probably the
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  Speaker 4: leader of the one that you worry the most about
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  Speaker 4: because the Soviet Union had the most extensive biological weapons
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  Speaker 4: program that was done clandestinely in defiance of the Biological
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  Speaker 4: Weapons Convention, which tells you what these treaties actually mean.
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  Speaker 4: When Russia signs it and and then develops a huge
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: biological weapons program. And we know that Vladimir Putin has
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  Speaker 4: had no qualms about using novel nerve agents even on
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  Speaker 4: on on English soil, and using all kinds of things
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  Speaker 4: on people. And and same with North Kim Jong Un
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  Speaker 4: his uncle, I think it was his uncle that he
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: in an airport in Malaysia had one of his people
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: had she had VX on her gloves and put it
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: on his face and killed him. So so these people
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: are using chemical, you know, advanced chemical weapons, and we
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: know we know that in speeches Vladimir Putin has talked
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: about using weapons with genetic potential and and he's disavowed
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  Speaker 4: the facts of Boris Jelson admitted that the Soviet Union
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: had this huge biological weapons program.
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  Speaker 3: Now Vadim Putin says that was all a lie.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: They don't have it, they never had that, and he's
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: disavowed with Yelton says, so we know that there's a
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: lot of shadiness going on there. So those are the
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: state actors, but we don't You know that al Qaeda
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: tried to develop a biological weapons program and they were unsuccessful.
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: Am Shinricchio, the Tokyo Doomsday cult that US sarin on
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: the on the Tokyo subway. They also tried to weaponize botulism.
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: There have been some white supremacist groups that have tried
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: to buy plague and things like that, and so there's
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: and then you know, there was a a crazy story
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: in Mississippi about about like an Elvis impersonator and a
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: Wayne Newton impersonator who mailed Rice and the President Obama
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: and Senator Wicker and a bunch of people. So these
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: things happen, so it all so that threat is always there.
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: And obviously we're twenty five years since the anthrax attacks
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: where the anthrax was mailed through the US Postal Service
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: and we had five people die during that time.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Did we have a catch who did that?
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: This is a little bit of a controversy in my field.
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: So the FBI believes that it was a man named
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: Bruce Ivans, who was a leading anthrax scientist in the military,
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: but there's some questions about whether or not that would
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: have been proven in courtant the guy was a little
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: had mental issues and he ended up killing himself when
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: he was being helded by the FBI, so that case
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: never went to trial. But the FBI basically says case closed,
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: there's the National Academies of Science say probably not case closed.
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: There's still a lot of questions we have, but that's
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: kind of where it stands.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: So what do we know about these biological labs that
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: China has? I mean, obviously that became a headline issue
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: on COVID. Do we know what they're developing in there? Is?
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: You know, do we have any visibility into their programs?
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: I think not officially. We know that there are regular
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: research labs, and that's the idea of the lab. The
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: lably hypothesis is not from necessarily from a military lab.
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: It's about a major coronavirus lab with a very famous
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: coronavirus researcher and whether she was doing experiments carelessly, that's
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: the question. But the People's Republic Army, they definitely have
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: some interest in biological weapons.
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  Speaker 3: It's unclear to meet. That's a little bit.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: They're a little bit of a black box about what
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: exactly they may or may not have the capacity to do.
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: But you just have to assume that that they have
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: they have the capacity and capability because they're a very
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: very a very sophisticated biological sciences country that they can do.
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: You know, they're cloning humans and do they can If
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: they can do all of that, they must they have
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: advanced biological capacity. So it's a little bit of just
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: a switch you've got to throw, basically to go from
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: the good side to the dark side. But I don't
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: think anybody knows exactly what And if you read the
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: unclassified reports from the State Department, it's kind of lawfully
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: they think they possess those, but it's not. It's clearly
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: not the level of Russia or North Korea.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: The concern.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: Is there any concern Russia would use this in uh
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: in Ukraine?
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's always that concern. I don't
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: know that.
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: Yes, I think that I think that if Russia got desperate,
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: I think that there's there's still some moral qualms against
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: using that. So I think that there would be massive
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: ostraitization of Vladimir Putin if he used biological weapons, especially
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: in a military conflict rather than as a tool of assassination.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: But yes, I think that concern, that concern exists, and
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: you could imagine having to try and move troops that
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: were exposed to ebola or something like that. It would
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: be very, very difficult to do logistically says.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: Something like ebola, can that be uh turned into a weapon?
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: There?
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: People have tried to do that. The Soviet Union tried
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: to weaponize Ebola. We don't know if they were successful.
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: Am Shinrikio sent people to Ebola outbreaks to try and
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: draw blood from Ebola victims in order to weaponize it.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: So so so I think, yeah, I think it technically
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: could be WEAPONI I don't know exactly how that might
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: be done. It probably wouldn't be something that you would
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: be able to put into a word, but you can
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: think about a crop duster or something like that.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, lots of other ways to deliver it. Yeah, you know,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: so that's kind of the bio. So that's kind of
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: the threat, that man made threat. What are the wether
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: the natural threats out there that you would be most
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: concerned about? These days, we hear periodically about bird flus,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: but that Yeah.
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: So I would always say bird flu is always at
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: the top of my list. I could have done this
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: interview with you in two thousand and nine and I
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: would have said bird flu. It's always bird flu because
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: flu is the most likely thing to cause a pandemic,
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: because it's done it multiple times. And there are so
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: many bird flu viruses that are circulating and interacting with
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: and kind of interfacing with the humans, with humans and
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: sometimes in facting them, sometimes not sometimes killing them, sometimes
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: causing mild disease. So it's just sort of a matter
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: of time before the right combination of things happens. And
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: one of those bird flu viruses has the ability to
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: spread efficiently from person to person, And that's exactly what
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: happened in nineteen eighteen, and there's no reason it couldn't
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: happen now. It's actually probably more likely to happen now
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: because of the way that things are farmed, and because
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: of the size of the global population and the global
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: travel times being basically at the speed of a jet
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: versus the speed of a steamship.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: And there was something that was at a Yogo or
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: to Ago where they had to cull huge quantities of chickens.
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: That's still ongoing, it's just not in the headlines anymore. Yeah,
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: So what happened. There's a certain strain of bird flu
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: called H five and one, and it had been spreading
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: for some time. It's been around since nineteen ninety seven,
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: but since around twenty twenty twenty two to two. It
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: has been spreading a lot in the United States, and
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: it spreads from migratory birds to poultry, and it will
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: get into a poultry farm and then the poultry farmer
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: has to kill basically all of his chickens to stop
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: it from spreading. That's caused millions and millions of poultry farms,
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: of deaths of chickens on poultry farms. And then what
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: became interesting was that it found its way into cattle.
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: And remember, cattle are mammals. People forget, they think, and
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: humans are mammals too, so when bird flu viruses are
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: in mammals, that raises the steak. So this got into
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: a new animal that we knew that we never had
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: seen influenza A in a cattle, and it was in
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: dairy cows. And then it started spreading to dairy cow
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: workers who were getting basically squirted in the eyeball when
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: they were milking the cows. And then some poultry colors
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: got it to some people who were killing chickens got it.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: And so we saw like a smattering of about several dozen
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: cases in humans. Most were not severe, but that was
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: a little bit scary because this virus H five N
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: one has been infecting more mammalian species than any of
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: the other bird flu viruses, including ones that are very
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: close to humans, so in terms of human interaction like
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: a dairy cow or a cat or a dog or
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: whatever it might be, and that the more chances that
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: the more times that virus is in a mammal, the
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: more likely it is to develop the ability to spread
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: efficiently amongst mammals. And it's interesting it's gotten too sea
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: lions and all these well in marine mammals as well,
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: but it's not for whatever reason, there's a block. It's
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: not been able to do very well in humans and
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: not been able to spread, but it's clearly spreading in
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: other mammalian species.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: So humans can get infected, but they can't transmit.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: It, right, They're like a dead, dead end host. They don't.
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: Some people get severely ill, some people just get mild,
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: have gotten mild like conjunct devices or pink eye from it,
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: but it doesn't have the ability to go on further.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: And it's and it's still unclear how well it spreads
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: in other mammals. Is it just because lots of sea
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: lions eat a bunch of dead birds and it's not
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: spreading amongst the sea lions, but the whole bunch of
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: them got infected. So but these are kind of that
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: raises the stakes. And it's sort of a black box
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: because prior to the change in the administration, all of
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: us experts used to have calls every week with CDC.
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: They stopped on January twentieth, right before January twentieth, and
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: haven't had no calls since that time.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: So no calls on av and influenza or no calls.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: Un avian influenza.
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: We used to have a meeting with the Deputy Director
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: of the CDC and other people at CDC and they
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: would just go give us all their data and just
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: talk to all of us that in the field. Those
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: just abruptly stopped. I think they got the last one
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: in around January eighteenth, nineteenth and then no more.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Wow, wow, Okay, we'll get We'll get to RFK and
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: the HSS in a minute. Any any other things that
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: you're watching, I mean, other than kind of the wood flus.
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: Well, there's always these these ebola flare ups that occur
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: in parts of Africa, like the DRC, and the problem
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: there is that these are all conflict zones with civil war,
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: and when you have a situation like that, that's a
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: recipe for something to get out of control because you
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: can't actually get in there to control it because you
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: might get killed by not by the virus, but by
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: the rebels in the militia groups there. So there's been
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: sporadic Ebola and Ebola like illnesses in Africa that have
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: all been contained, but each one of them is a
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: little bit scary. Mpox which was formerly known as monkey
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: pocks that continues to spread in Africa as well as outside.
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: It's not something that can cause a pandemic, but it
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: can be pretty disruptive when it occurs, so that's still
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: on the list. There are interesting viruses. Is one called
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: Nepa virus, which also comes from bats. There have been
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: some A couple of weeks ago there was some airports
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: had started doing screening because of cases that occurred in India.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: That was a little bit of an overreaction. But Nepa virus,
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: it causes a brain infection and it doesn't transmit that
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: well between person to person, but can do it. That's
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: another one that's on the list. And we see Asian
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: countries get nervous when there's an outbreak in Bangladesh or
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: in India that they'll start doing travel screening. But they're
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: all everything's kind of simmering. None of them are really
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: jumping jumping out above the pack right now, pack right now,
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: other than avian flu as this major threat and.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: The kind of bad covid type type.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: Virus says yeah, so bats have bats host many, many
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: different viruses, not just covid, but rabies, uh Marburg virus,
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: Ebola virus, Nepa virus, hender virus. So that's that's just
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: that's one of the most populars Mamalion species and because
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: of their immune system in the way they roost together,
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: they spread lots of viruses and don't get sick, but
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: they can spill into us. So that's one of kind
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: of the unsampled. That's one place where you if you look,
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: you're gonna find weird viruses. Many of them might not
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: be able to infect humans, but it's sort of a
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: scary thing, and you know, that's that's the origin of
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: of covid. The ultimate origin is that it's a bat virus.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: It's the ultimate origin of ebola. And there are caves
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: like there are caves in Africa that people go into
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: these caves and come out with ebola or an ebola
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: like virus. I don't know why people continue to go
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: into this cave, but people still so. So the bats
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: are are not something you want to If you wake
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: up in your in your house and there's a bat,
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: you need to go get raby's vaccination because it's they
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: carry such nasty, nasty viruses. But yes, that's you know,
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of efforts, and that's the whole idea
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: of you know, the lab leak is that that the
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: Wuhan Institute of Virology that they were working with bats,
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: not carefully, not with gloves, getting bit getting spit on
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: by the bats, because they were collecting and sampling bats
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: to try and find origins of coronaviruses.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Is there any basist idea that it was a corona
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: virus on a bat that had been altered.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: I don't.
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: I don't think so. I don't think it had been altered.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: I think that if you I think the best case
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: for the lab leak hypothesis is that this is a
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: natural bat virus that they were not working with at
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: the proper biosafety level. That's that's what I think, is
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: that you know, and I still am sort of undecided
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: on this. There's circumstantial evidence both ways, you know, in
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: the in the Chinese think this came from like a
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: Lobster's in Maine. Is what their official government things?
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: Frozen?
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, frozen food that was being sold there Americans and
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: food is there their ideas, So they don't want to
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: know either way. And until someone from China defects or tells,
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: I don't think we'll know what we'll get any answers
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: because they don't want it to be theirs to begin with.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: Because they the live market, they basically cleared it out
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: the day the day after this outbreak occurred, so there
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: was no way to get really good samples. We've got
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: some samples there, but not enough to make a completely
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: definitive case.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: No, I think domestically they cannot come out of this way.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: It was their fault, so it would have to it
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: would have to wait for regime change in China, you know,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: for us to really get the info or or defection,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: as you said, is is there any biologically is it
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: possible for eubola to become easier to contract or spread
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: easier between humans, because right now it doesn't which is
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: what I don't.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: I don't necessarily think so, because ebola spreads through blood
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: and body fluids, and it's not just like a switch
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: that you can flip and then all of a sudden
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: it's spreads through the respiratory route. So it's not that
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: easy to make it more transmissible. Obviously, you can do
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: a lot of things with synthetic biology and genetic engineering now,
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: and you could take aspects of want to create chimeric
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: viruses and people the Soviet Union tried to do that,
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: make chimeric, to try to do that. But yes, you
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: could do it unnaturally, but it's not naturally going to
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: do that. And I think it's very hard for something
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: to switch its mode of transmission. So in the movie
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: Outbreak that they have this ebola stand in virus and
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: they're looking at under microscope and they say, oh, it
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: looks a little different the shape.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: It must be airborne. Now that's not true in the
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: movie Outbreak.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: So sour virus is typically either bear born or transmitted
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: through body fluids.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well yeah, transmitted through the air, through body fluids,
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: through through contact, through touch, like you know herpes viruses
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: from touching. They can be transmitted through and then also
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: through fecal oral so like hepatitis ah, so through fecal matter.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Right. Cool, So you mentioned the fact that they're no
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: cost from HSS. Oh the CDC, I guess. So give
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: us a yeah, you know, I think I know, I
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: know your answer. But give us you impression of rfk
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: uh and his tenure so far at the at HSS,
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: and then maybe we can we can drill deeper into
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: the different the different parts of the HSS.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: I would say, if you're a nihilist, he's been very
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: successful at spreading nihilism and destroying things. If you're anybody
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: that likes humans, he's been a disaster. So I think
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: this is exactly what you would have predicted, especially you know,
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: Donald Trump said he was putting RFK Junior there to
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: go wild on health, and that's exactly what he's done.
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: And and he's done exactly what he is telegraphed that
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: he would do for decades. So anybody that's surprised, anybody
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: that thought when he was lying during his confirmation hearings
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: that he wasn't going to touch the vaccines, I mean,
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: they all they all should have known better, because he's
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: clearly shown us who he is for so long, so
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: nobody should be surprised about what he's doing. And he
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: knows how to do it. He's not doing this in
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: a haphazard not this is a This is like an architect.
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: The way he's he knows where to pull the pins
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: in our vaccine ecosystem to make it collapse. He's he knows,
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: he's very meticulous, very well thought out. He understands vaccine
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: policy better than most vaccine advocates probably do. And and
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: he knows, and you know, he's and he's got that
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: that that case, it's it's still surprising to me how
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: many doors that Kennedy name opens for people. That he
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: still has that Kennedy mystique. That people give him the
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: benefit of the doubt, and they'll say, well, he's really
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: good on environmental law, he's really good on red dye.
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: But and it's because they don't want to, you know,
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: fully condemn him. But it's it's the same theme throughout
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: his entire you know, the way he approaches the environmental
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: law stuff to the way he approaches vaccine law, it's
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: all the same. And it's been really painful to watch
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: because he's destroying these agencies like the CDC. He's he's
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: making he's in bold in the anti vaccine movement too.
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: They basically are you know, they're they're basically a part
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: of the government. He is basically an organ to propagain
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: for the anti vaccine movement. And it's not just that
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: it's the anti science movement. He went after a tailan
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: all he doesn't believe in the germ theory of disease.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: He said, all kinds of insane things that people you
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: know that are Now, this is the Secretary of Health
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: and Human Services, the most powerful federal health regulator in
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: the world, is saying all of this. So used to
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: that people didn't trust the CDC before. I tell people now,
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: don't trust the CDC because now it's controlled by RFK Junior.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Yep. So go through maybe some of these some of
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: the things he's done in terms of vaccines, I mean,
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: what is it. How is he dismantled the system in
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: terms of the vaccines.
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: Well, what he's done.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: So the way the CDC works is that they have
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: this Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices, which basically advised people
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: on how to how the vaccine should best be used,
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: and insurance companies use that as a queue for what
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: they're going to cover, and the actually after Obamacare pass,
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: they're required to follow ACIP requirements. So he knew if
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: I can get the ACIP to say something else, then
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: that's going to change the policy. So he basically fired
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: the entire ACIP and put his own cronies on, who
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: then started to pull the mercury based preservative out of
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: flu vaccines. They direct they deprioritized covid vaccines and made
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: it kind of this thing called shared decision making. They
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: they split up that the chicken pox vaccine from from
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: the measles bumps roubella vaccine. They then he basically by
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: FIAT just issued a whole new vaccine schedule, dropping certain
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: vaccines like the hepatitis be birth doose, like like the
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: the men and the meningitis vaccine, the rotavirus vaccine, just
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: by FIAT basically doing all of that, creating massive amounts
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: of turmoil. He then at the FDA, which he also controls,
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: had his people changed the way that vaccines were evaluated
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: to make it much more hostile for for vaccine manufacturers.
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: And and they you already saw that with Maderna's mRNA
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: influenza vaccine where they that we're not going to review it.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: After Maderna had come to an agreement with them about
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: how they would review it. They basically changed the rules midship,
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: so he did that. He's trying to dismantle the Vaccine Court,
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: which was set up as an alternative means if you
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: have a vaccine reaction to get compensation, you can still
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: go to the courts, but you go to the Vaccine
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: Court first. He's trying to dismantle that. He's changed the
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: language on the CDC's website, the language on all of
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: the websites, and he's just put and then in all
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: of the policy level places where he can put people,
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: he's put his own people that are all anti vaccine.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: And then remember he also could is that's just FDA CDC.
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: He also controls the NIH, so he has stopped NIH
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: funding of mRNA vaccine technology, basically just just said no,
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: we're not doing it. So he's little by little just
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: dismantling it all and then also sowing so much distrust
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: ruining those agencies so that if they ever come back
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: and he's not in power, he's already done the damage
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: and it's going to be very hard to come back
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: from and it's and he has like a full agenda.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: I've probably left some things out, but it's really it's
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: really impressive in a negative way of how how well
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: he was ready to go on day one. He had
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: an agenda and he's implementing it.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: And the people he brought in do they all kind
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: of support this agenda?
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, at least they have to avoide it.
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: Maybe they didn't fully before, but if you're not okay
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: with it, you can't really be part of that administration.
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: He basically has veto power over it. I know.
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: Now there's been some waffling because I think the Republicans
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: have recognized that this isn't popular with the voters, including
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: with Republican voters, so they're backing off a little bit.
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: And Trump personally intervened, from my understanding, on the Maderna
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: case to get them to review the vaccine because this
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: was not he didn't want that to happen, that that
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: Maderna was one of his hei.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And so I think that they're moving back from it.
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: But a lot of the damage has been done, and
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: the court has ruled against RFK Junior basically saying every
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: thing you're doing is illegal and not following any kind
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: of law. But he's done all that damage already. So
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: I think most of the people in it, like right
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: now they can't get a CDC director. They has no
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: CDC director because he fired the last CDC director who
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: stood up for vaccines, and no one can take that job.
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: If you're going to be a vaccine advocate, which I
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: think you have to be, if you're involved in infectious disease,
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: how can you how are you going to get past
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: RFK Junior. So we've got many of these heads are
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: vacant in these in these vaccine inside the CDC, many
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: of the like the subsidiary center heads, they're all vacant
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: because he fir. They all quit in solidarity. A lot
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: of them quit after the CDC director was fired. So
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: the whole thing is in turmoil, which tells you if
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: there were an infectious disease emergency, now, if bird flu
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: got the ability to spread from person to person, we
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: would be screwed worse than in COVID because there is
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: no one there.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: And and you know before he fired them, was this
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: the CDC looked anything from what was pretty haphazard. The
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: way they behaved during COVID.
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that they did it. It's again, this
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: is all the failure of policy makers because the CDC
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: basically became captured by the West wing during both the
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: Trump and Obama and the Trump and Biden administrations, where
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: everything was being done through a political lens and tribal politics.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: So the more people who wanted to have more nuanced
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: they were silenced at the CDC in favor of the
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: politicals that were basically saying, we want to have it
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: this way. We're going to juxtapose their republican version as
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: a democratic So yes, I think everybody knew what was
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: going on in Cringing when the CDC wasn't using the
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: nuance they that they needed to, and they were communicating
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: in very black and white terms instead of actually allowing
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: there to be you know, being clear about where the science,
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: where the science stopped, and where there was a policy
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: decision and what the uncertainties were.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: They didn't do that. Everybody knew that happened.
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: Everybody knew that they were going to get burned for
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: that and lose trust, and you've got this massive backlash
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: because of some of that. So it's not not an
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: accident that RFK Junior rises gets not like Rkjunor was
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: already saying this during COVID. He saw this as an opportunity.
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: The anti vaccine movement saw it as an opportunity. They
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: were having conferences, the anti vaccine lawyers during COVID just
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: thinking all the things that they were going to do.
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: So they saw that as a huge opportunity to finally
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: kind of get their you know, get their head in
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: the door here and completely disrupt everything. But yes, I
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: think it's it's definitely the fact that the mistakes of
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: COVID have led to the rise of RFK Junior to
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: this high echelon of power.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: So if something like COVID hit today, whatich assessment of
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: what would happen.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: It would be first evasion. Trump will say it's not shying,
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: it's going to go away. It's something just like it's
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: one person. It's one person from Mexico. He'll say something
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: like that, and then then he would evade. Then then
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: it was something would happen with cases would occur. You
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: start to see some pressure on hospitals, some governors and
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: mayors might start to get worried. Then it would go
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: to panic, and but it would be complete haphazard panic,
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: because then there might be some guidance. So maybe Trump
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: would turn to some experts, and that expert they need
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: to do this. No one is going to listen to anybody,
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: but if it involves anything that might be perceived as
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: a restriction on them saying even if it was just
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: voluntary that maybe you should move your things outdoors, or
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: maybe you should worry about you big crowded gatherings until
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: we figure out what this is.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: No one would listen.
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: Everything would become tribal and we would have And then
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: it's not like you're going to get an operational warp
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: speed because who you know, the AHHS secretary for President
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: Trump was alex Azar who is the former CEO of
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: ELI Lilly who ran that, And they brought in mons
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: Aff Slowly, who is the former CEO of GSK. But
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: those are all evil villains according to RFK Junior. So
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: you're not going to see alex Azar Monsaff Slowly running
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: an operation warp speed, and you're not going to see
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: it go towards vaccines. So you're going to see the
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: exact opposite of that. And then even if you could
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: make a vaccine, or if it was made in other country.
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: People wouldn't take it and they would say, oh, this
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: is just some conspiracy. Even now there's a new variant
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: of COVID that's in the news, and the hate mail
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: I'm getting now just because I talkalked about it, they're saying,
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: you know, you're going to shut the whole world down.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: I'm anything.
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: I'm just telling it as an invariant. That's this evolution.
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: It's cool, it's mutating. That's interesting. I like this stuff.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: So I'm not telling you anything other than that you
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: don't have to watch it if you don't, I'm just
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: telling you that the virus is mutating. It's got some
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: cool mutations in it. So I think that just the
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: idea that you would say something like that, they would say.
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: They would say, oh, here we go again, basically is
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: what they were. And you know, I think I was
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: listening to Nicos in the Classic Game and he said
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: that the the COVID broke, like the epistemology of the right,
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: the way they think about things is all skewed now
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: after COVID, it really ruined the way because now they
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: have become so tribal and unable to actually look at
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: data or reality it's just all I think it's all
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: postmodern stuff.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: It's just weird. It's a really bad situation.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, post modernism s used to have won over both
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: the left and the weight at this point. Are there
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: any plots of the HHS in AH or something like
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: that that are functioning better or is it all just
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: a mess?
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: Well, there are people still doing good work and so
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: at CDC. If it's not something that RFK is interested in,
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: there may be doing some good work. So a non
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: vaccine preventable disease, for example, if like food borne illnesses,
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: I don't see major disruptions there. You know, people tracking
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: equal eye outbreaks, things like that. There's stuff like that
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: that's still happening at NIH. There's still world class scientists
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: and researchers there. It's just that it's all it's all
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: become politicized and they're all kind of working in these
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: little enclaves and it's not really a comprehensive strategy or
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: a sustainable strategy. That certain things are okay, but certain
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: things aren't okay, and it's in the priorities are shifting,
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: you know. For for example, I think that RFK Junior
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: tends to like diagnostic tests and likes the idea of
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: you know, wastewater monitoring and trying. He likes that. So
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: those areas are thriving. And then paradoxically, the Department of Defense,
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: which also does a lot of work in biodefense, they're
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: increasing their footprint. They're still funding mRNA vaccine research.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Yeah.
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: And they're still and there's some good people at the
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: Department of Defense that are really interested in these issues.
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: And it's not something that rises to like the Secretary
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: of Defense level, but those little things inside the Department
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: of Defense are doing good, good work in trying to
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: build a system that maybe get scaled, but it might
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: come from the Department of Defense rather than HHS.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: IS.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, there was some talk about changing the way
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: government funded research and improving that whole system. Is any
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: of that really actually happening.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: But I haven't seen anything concrete with what they're doing.
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: I know that they were like summarily canceling certain grants
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: based on word search. So if it's had diversity, so
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: you might say the diversity of antibody response to a
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: bullet got canceled because it had the word diversity in it,
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: or the include this this cell has an inclusion in it. Canceled,
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: Grant was canceled. So there was a lot of stupid
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: stuff that happened. So I don't know if they've fully
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: recovered from from that.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: And is your sense now that the anti vaxc how
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: much big is the anti vax move in now than
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: it was pre COVID or post COVID, I mean, as
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: I mean COVID.
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: It certainly seems bigger. I don't know it. I think
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: it's it's definitely. So the anti vaccine movement was this
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: phenomenon of the far left, and now it's a phenomenon
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: of the far right. So that's kind of that horseshoe
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: or you talk about the arrow part of politics. They're
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: playing back there there. They've they've met, and it's not
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: surprising to me that RFK Junior is a creature of
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: the far left who was accepted by the far right.
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: And I think that they've gotten bigger. And in the
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: past it was interesting because states like West Virginia and
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: Mississippi were the reddest of the red states had the
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: highest childhood vaccination rates. Now and it was places like
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: Marin County, California, or Washington State or Oregon that's where
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: the anti vax people lived.
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: Now it's all this. Now it's mixed.
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: It's it's all mixed, and you've got got it from
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: the far left and the far right. So I do
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: think they're much more. They're bigger and were vocal than
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: they were before, and they've got they've got RFK Junior
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: in power. But if you look at polling, though, eighty
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: percent of Americans support the routine childhood vaccinations and think
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: that our don't trust our FFK Junior. But it's that
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: they're so vociferous and they have the levers of government power.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: So we sow one manifestation of this with the measles outbreak.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: So how bad was that? And and has it been contained?
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: It has not been contained. It's disastrous. The US is
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: going to lose its elimination status for measles later this year.
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: They've pushed to the meeting till after the midterms because
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: they don't want to be embarrassed by it. But it
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: was so this basically, you know, there's all this mythology, Oh,
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: this is illegal immigrants that drove it's that's not true.
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: It's actually Americans that are unvaccinated that live here and
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: they go to countries, not not you know, the countries
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: that Donald Trump doesn't like, but go to Europe where
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: measles has never been eliminated, and they come back and
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: then they live in an area where their friends are
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: not vaccinated, and then it spreads, so that this happened
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: in Texas with the Mennonite population, that happened in South
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: Carolina as well, It's happening in Utah, it's happening in
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: all of these red states where there's pockets of unvaccinated individuals,
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: and it's they've been kind of a lot of them
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: have been really impervious to vaccines in terms of so
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: the Texas outbreak where we had people die from measles,
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: kids die, which does not happen in the modern era.
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: The interview with one of the fathers said, you know,
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: God created the measles virus, so this was just God's.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: Will that my child died.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: That is so yeah.
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: And in South Carolina, some woman child had encephalitis or
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: brain infection for musles said I still wouldn't get the vaccine.
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: So we're in this problem right now. It's just March
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: of twenty twenty six, and we're already on record breaking
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: numbers of measles with multiple over a dozen different outbreaks
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: in the United States that are going on right now.
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: And there's outbreaks in Florida to University Ava Maria University
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: which is seating. Other outbreaks we've got out. The South
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: Carolina outbreak seems to be slowing down. That was a
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: big one. The Utah Utah has an outbreak in the
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints. It's in that pocket there. So
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: but every time I say something on measles, someone says, Oh,
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: it's the illegal immigrants or it's the undocumented. That's actually
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: not true. Actually, Augustina and I wrote an article about
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: that a while ago that was published in The Hill.
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: But this is just what they always say. There's no
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: actual basis. And the Mexico outbreak of measles was seated
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: from Texas, not the other way around, so we brought
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: it to them.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: So so Europe never eradicated measles.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: No.
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: No, the only part of the world that ever eliminated
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: measles was was the America's North and South America. And
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: now that's gone, that's already gone because Canada lost its
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: elimination status, already has lost its elimination status of the
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: Americas are no longer free of.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Measles also because of the anti vax movement.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was why.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Wasn't eradicating Europe. You'd expect Europe.
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: To, They just they just never got the I think
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: they didn't prioritize it that much and then they they
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: have these I think it just didn't prioritize enough. And
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: there are anti vaccine holdouts in Europe. So Europe has
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: never been able to get a handle on and even
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: England has never been able to eliminate even on there
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: in the one country. So and remember also, you know
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: the England is also some of that. Andrew Wakefield who
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: was the man who wrote the false MMR and autism
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: link that he was a European or he was from
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: England and that caught that did catch in Europe. But
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: places like Romania have never had great vaccination. Romania is
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: one of the bigger places where there's a lot of
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: measles cases in Europe every year. Israel is another place
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: where measles cases occur.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: Well I had measles in Israel, so but I don't
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: think there's a vaccine that back then anyway.
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the vaccine is like like the early nineteen sixties
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: when the vaccine was developed or what it was released
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: in the US.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was born in sixty one, so.
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right around the cusp of that.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: But I got all the childhood diseases. I think I
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: had mumps, I had chicken pox, I had all of them.
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I always think, you know, if you could
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: have if you're talking avoid all of that, why not
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: if you have a safe and effective vaccine, because it's
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: not It's not a fun thing no matter what. And
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: people say, oh, it's not a big deal. First of all,
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: it is a big deal sometimes and and why why
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: do you need to suffer? It's like some kind of
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: like you know, religious guilt that you need life needs
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: to be suffering, that you need to get chicken pox
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: and feel miserable for a week and get scars on
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: your body and scratch and all that.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: Wife, should you do that?
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: It was you know somebody who had them all. It
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: was horrible. It was just horrible. If I could, if
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: I could avoid that, I would definitely avoid it. It
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: was there's nothing nothing good about it. But uh but yeah,
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: so any chances of other uh uh, you know, kids
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: get a lot of vaccinations. Any chances that any of
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: those other diseases make you come back.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: They're already coming back. So whooping cough record numbers of
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: whooping cough.
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: We're seeing certain types of back material meningitis come back
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: like it's hemophulous, influenza B or hib hib cases of
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: that are that are are occurring. There are mops cases
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: occurring in parts of the of the country as well,
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: chicken pox cases occurring in parts of the country. So
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: they all come back. Measles is the most contagious, so
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: it is the canary in the coal mine. That's the
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: first you see come back. But they're all going to
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: come back. And you know, I would not be surprised
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: if all of a sudden there's a diphth theoria case
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: or something in the United States, just because we've got
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: these you know, these these infections didn't good people don't.
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: People are like, oh, it's not a problem anymore, and
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: they evade, they evade the answer, Well, why isn't it
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: a problem anymore?
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: It's because vaccination rates are so high. They don't.
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: They think this magically, this doesn't exist anymore. But they're
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: all there their way, you know, Mother nature doesn't care.
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: Mother nature will kill one in five children. But before
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: the age of five, if you let it, that's what
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: mother nature does. It's not you know, they will say,
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: well people, they'd say people in the nineteen whatever did
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: not take all those vaccines. And then you say, well,
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: what was their lifespan? What was the infant mortality rate?
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: You know, So it's they they don't quite understand that.
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: They just drop that whole contry. They evade the whole context.
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: I think is what happened.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: It really is, uh and meningitis is really I mean
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: they I mean, it's such an awful disease. The idea
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: that it's coming back, it's really home. So how do
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: you make it comeback from this? I mean, is there
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: a chance that this gets reversed at some point?
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: They can I think that once people.
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: So what we've seen has been someone like in Texas,
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: at least among some people, the vaccine hesitant, when they
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: saw what meusles was doing, they got vaccinated. South Carolina
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: people got vaccinated. There's obviously some holdouts that probably have
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: religious and ideological opposition, but some people do get vaccine.
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: This sometimes unfortunately, they have to see they have to
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: see it with their own eyes yep, and then say
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: this is bad. But I still think that now that
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: this has gotten tied into identity politics, So when you
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: tell someone that your pro vaccine or your anti vaccine
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: that you're trying, you're actually attack attacking their identity. Like
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: if you tell someone you should be getting this vaccine
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: and that they're wrong for not getting it, they take
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: it as a personal that you've gone against everything that
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: they are. And I think that becomes very hard to
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: do when something gets sucked into tribal politics, like it's
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: abortioner or you know, gay marriage. That's how that's what
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: vaccines have become now. And it's that same type of
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: You can even see it like in hospitals that are
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: hesitant to be pro vaccine because they're afraid of offending
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: their anti vax employees or their anti vax patients, or
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: their afraid RFKA Junior is going to cut their Medicare
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: funding and destroy a hospital. So it's there is this
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: big chilling effect now that this has become not a
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: scientific or medical issue but a political issue.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: Did you see that study that showed that the shingle
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: vaccine might have an effect on the probability of getting Alzheimer's. Yeah.
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So the shingles vaccine, it really stimulates your immune
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: system in multiple different ways, and that's what they think
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: is happening. Is that immune stimulation maybe what's decreasing your
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: chances of of developing dementia at a later age. I
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: don't think it has to do with the virus. It
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: has to do more with the general immune system boost
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: that the vaccine gives you. So there is that's something
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: that everybody should get when they turned fifty. That's when
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: they even though I recently turned fifty, but I haven't
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: gotten the vaccine yet. I have to get it. I
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: have to make an appointment. But that is a great vaccine,
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: the shingles vaccine. That's what people line up for because
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: they know the Chumo's vaccine has never had vaccine hesitancy,
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: because most people who are that age know someone that
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: had shingles and know how bad they suffer, to know
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: how bad it sucked and that, so they go get it.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's uh, but it's interesting. So they think
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: that the immune the increased immune response lasts for decades.
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: Yes, that it Yeah, that it modulates your immune response
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: and creates so part of the dementia. The hypothesis of
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: how dementia occurs is because of chronic inflammation, and somehow
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: that vaccine reverses some of that chronic inflammation that occurs.
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: That's like what happens because even if you get if
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: you have a case of shingles in the week after
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: you have that, you're at high risk for stroke, high
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: risk for heart attack just because of all the inflammation.
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: So there's lots of inflammatory reactions that occur that that
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: has to do with the virus. And some people think
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: that maybe that's keeping the vius virus quieter and you're
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: not getting to mention, but it may just be a
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: general inflammatory response change that occurs. But it's it's just
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: another add on effect of the vaccine and learning how
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: to figure out how to stimulate the immune system in
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: a way because it plays such a role in many
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: different diseases that weren't thought to be immune related.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah, I got my shingles, I know,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: I think I think after I was sixty I probably
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't have waited that long, but I did. But
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I know people who had shingles, and god,
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: you don't want to get that, so you guys out there,
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: if you're fifty, get a shingles vaccine and it wasn't
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: like the COVID vaccine which I suffered from. You know,
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: you get you get. I think she goes they knock
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: you out for a day or something.
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, some people, some people get pretty bad side effects
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: from me because it hasn't an adge of it has
• 52:09
  Speaker 4: an immune system booster in it, which can sometimes cause
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: the pain in the ejection site.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: I never got it. Yeah, I never get that. I
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: just get, you know, the kind of fluish symptoms.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: Ah.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: So uh, you know LFK is a is a disaster.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: Any any positives like his new food pyramid or something
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: like that, Well.
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: I don't if the guy doesn't believe in the scientific
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: method or logic, he just happens to maybe get something
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: that might be So I think it's so. I don't
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: think anything that comes out of his mouth, it's like
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: it's just completely arbitrary. Because if someone says, I mean,
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: it's if someone said, you can't say he's a good
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: position on this, because where does it come from. It's
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: just because he doesn't like anything that's unnatural. Vaccines are unnatural.
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: I don't like them. Red food dye is unnatural. I
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: don't like them ultra processed food. So he doesn't actually think,
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: what's what what does it actually mean for something to
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: be harmful or helpful to He's just he's in You know,
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: he didn't like the Hudson River how dirty it was,
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: because it was unnatural pollutant. And that's the same that's
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: he comes from an environmental standpoint where anything that that
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: MUCKs with Mother Nature is therefore bad. So whether that's
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: about not obviously, But he did, you know, he snorted
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: cocaine off of a toilet seat. But I guess that's
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: not That's okay.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: That was a pretty funny That was a pretty funny. Yeah,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: but he doesn't believe in the gym theory of disease,
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: So what's the big deal? Right? Why not toilet seats?
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: It just as there's nothing wrong with them. Yeah, uh good,
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: all right. Anything you're working on right now, that's exciting
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: under the videos and the content you're putting out there.
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: So I recently wrote a paper on the use of
• 53:53
  Speaker 4: AI to develop countermeasures against biothreats. So when we think
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: about making making drugs again against ebola or anthrax or whatever,
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: it's very hard to do that, and I kind of
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: think that there's in pharma is using lots of AI
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: to do drug design now, and I thought it's an
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: interesting thing to think about. Would that make it easier
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: to make countermeasures against these biothread agents, wh which are
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: very cost prohibitive because they don't have a market. The
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: only market is the government? And would it make it
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: would it de risk it a little bit if you
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: made an AI architecture. So I wrote a paper about
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: about trying to develop an ecosystem that way, and a
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: lot of that is already happening in the in the
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: US with the government, particularly the Department of Energy, labs
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: that the like Los Alamos and Berkeley and Livermore, they're
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: they're doing that kind of So can you make a
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: system to allow that data to be more freely accessible
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: to pharmaceutical companies so that they can then use it
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: to design the next you know, antibody against ebola or
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: whatever it might be. So I wrote a paper on
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: that that got published that I think hopefully will lead
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: to something I'm working on thinking about. So we've got
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: all this new technology after COVID in terms of surveillance,
• 54:55
  Speaker 4: so we do wastewater surveillance, they're surveying blood banks. They're
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: just randomly going up people in the airport and saying,
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: can we swab your nose? And they're swabbing people's noses
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: just to get all that data, just to have and
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: it kind of has this general generic term of you know,
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: biothreat radar. So trying to work on how to operationalize
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: such a system and would it actually how would how
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: would it work, How would it interface with the clinical world,
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: how would it interface with public health? So you could
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: use that data to say, oh, something is coming, so
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: we have an early warning system. So I'm trying to
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: think through that problem that seems it's not it's it's
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: related to pandemics, emerging infectious disease, biothreats. Trying to knit
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: together all this great technology that we have post COVID
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: that's kind of not being used optimally or and could
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: really give us, you know, almost like a really sophistic
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: sophisticated weather report or a forecast of what's coming down.
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: So I'm working on that as well, and and then
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: just continually trying to keep up with all of the
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: things that go on every day.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure is so the CDC is not ready
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: for the next pandemic or the next they're obviously not already.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: They private initiatives to try to fill in the gap.
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: There are some, and there's other countries that are doing
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: it too, so yes, there are So the Gates Foundation
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: has always been really aggressive with pandemic preparedness. There's an
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: organization called SEPI, the Coalition of Epidemic Preparedness Innovation that
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: they are based in Europe, but they're run by an
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: American former government biothreat person, and so so there are
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: there are some bill anthropthropic organizations that are that are
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: trying to piece this together. But it's very hard because
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: a lot of this does fall under like a legitimate
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: function of government when you're talking about contagious disease control,
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: and it's hard to do all of that without some
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: type of government coordination. And what we've seen is, for example,
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: in Canada, they're they're now saying, you know, we know
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: we may not be able to rely on the United
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: States as much during a pandemic, so we need to
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: develop our own systems and not just rely in the
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: UK just announced a billion dollar initiative to develop a
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: biothreat capacity and the in the EU is doing the
• 57:00
  Speaker 4: same thing. So what you're seeing is as the US
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: steps back, the US is withdrawn from the who as
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: as it steps back, these other countries and these philanthropic
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: organizations are doing it. But I think it's really not
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: going to have that same level of resiliency because of
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: the US, and it actually will hurt a lot of
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: US because if if the EU in places like that
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: have better terms for Maderna or wherever it might be,
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: and they need to make a vaccine, they're going to
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: make it there. They're not going to make it here,
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: and then there's going to be an export restriction slapped
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: on it from the EU guarantee, just like just like
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: their export restrictions slapped on these countries, on these companies here,
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: so we couldn't they couldn't export. So I think it's
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of concern about what will happen in
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: any kind of any kind of threat.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: Well, it's it's hope we don't have to face. One
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: is Taiwan still at the fuefront of all this.
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: But Taiwan is Taiwan I think has always been really
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: aggressive with infectious disease preparedness because they got burned by
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: SARS in two thousand and three, and they're worried about
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: China using biological weapons. So they have and they're an
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: island nation, and island nations often have this kind of mindset,
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: we can keep things out. So they are very aggressive
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: with their ability to screen and to test and to isolate.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: So they are the only ones that could test, trace
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: and isolated in South Korea, test chase and isolate during
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: COVID And I think, yes, they are still kind of
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: at the forefront. And I'd always told you before that
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: they had this. Their vice president on a PhD in epidemiology,
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: is the one I know.
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: I think.
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: I don't think he's president now, I think it's somebody different,
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: somebody they're They're just very aggressive infectious. They infectious disease
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: strategies they've correctly like incorporated into national security.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: Yep. Good, all right? That that that was really fascinating.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: Let's let's take some questions. Let's see chabot Uh says
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: MR and A has been used already to make vaccines
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: against viruses. Can they also be used as bacterial infections?
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: Yes they can, there are they're actually trying to make
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: an m R and a vaccine against the bacteria that
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: causes acne that will probably sell.
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah they can. They can.
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: M r E m RNA can be used for anything.
• 59:11
  Speaker 4: It's just that that the viruses are the easy test
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: case to show. But yes, there there are mRNA vaccine projects.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Essentially what mr and A does. So mRNA answer so
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: flexible because it's again they can use it against cancer
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: and there's so many things that can be can be used.
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: So mRNA is it stands for messenger RNA or messenger
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: ribonucleic acid. So you have DNA, m RNA. M RNA
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: gets translated into protein. That's the central dogma of biology.
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: So what an m RNA, What what m RNA vaccines
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: do is you're basically you're finding the gene of interest.
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: So for COVID, it was the spike protein. So you
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: have the gene, you have the sequence of the gene,
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: the spike protein, the m RNA, you just find it,
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: you read it off. You've got a piece of m
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: rn and it's synthesized in hours, and you encapsulate it
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: in this little fatty soap bubble and you put it
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: in people. It goes into your body, it goes into
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: the cell and then it's there this mRNA, just like
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: your mRNA from your normal proteins, and it gets translated
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 4: and your cell starts making the spike protein, which then
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: your immune system recognizes, so it does all the work
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: of the vaccine for you. You're giving it just the formula.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: So that's what mRNA does. So all if you need
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: to change it and say, oh the strain change, you
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: could just change it and put that in the soap bubble.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: You don't have to start all over again. And the
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: same thing for cancer and tumor vaccine is what they're
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: doing is they're sequencing someone's tumor. So they're looking at
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: someone's specific cancer and oh, this cancer has this gene
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 4: expressed in it or at this marker in it. Let's
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: get the mRNA sequence of that and let's give it
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: to that person. So then it pumps it all out
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: and then the immune system recognizes and sees it as
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: a sees that protein is foreign and goes after That's
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: basically what mRNA can do. It's just basically you have
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: the recipe, so you can just adjust it on the fly.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: And what it gives you, especially in infectious disease, is speed.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: Which is why it's such a tragedy that RFK canceled
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: the avian flu contract for because if there is an
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: avian flu outbreak, we're going to need speed, and the
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: fastest is mRNA.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: And bacteria. It's the same principle, yeah.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: Any yeah, So bacteria will still have proteins that you
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: need to target. So when your immune system fights the bacteria,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: it's fighting it's recognizing the proteins on that bacteria, or
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 4: the proteins on the fungi, or the proteins on a
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: malaria on a malaria parasite. So yes, m RNA could
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 4: be used. It technically could be used for everything. There
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: may be some approaches where it doesn't work as well.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: And it's not that mr and E is gonna supplant
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 4: every other type of vaccine technologies. I basically think every
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 4: you know, let them all bloom. There's all kinds of
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: great vaccine technologies, and we might need traditional vaccines for something,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: we might need m RNA for something. We might need
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: other types of vaccines for other targets. So I think
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: it's really cool that we've got so many, like a
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: menu of vaccine technologies.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, okay, Mary Eline says doctor Dolgia, thank you for
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: your daily medical updates and never missed them. How accurate
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: is Rosmith in its portrayal of phages?
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: Phages?
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, yeah, So Aerosmith is a very famous novel
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: by Sinclair Lewis, and it details a doctor this is
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: kind of in the pre antibiotic era, and one of
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: the things that they do, and this is in the
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: pre antibiotic era, is that you think we can attack
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: bacteria by harnessing the viruses that infect bacteria and using
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: those therapeutically, so they're called bacteria phages. And this was
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: something that people were doing and then the penicillin era
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: started and they basically got supplanted. But now that we're
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: in this situation of antibiotic resistance, pages are coming back.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: People are reviving this, this whole, this whole idea, and
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 4: they're giving these bacterial viruses to people with really severe
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: infections and you're getting really great results in certain in
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: certain individuals.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: So I think that this is.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: Something so Aerosmith is pretty accurate for the time it
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: was written by that it was written by Sinclair Lewis,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 4: but there was a very famous microbiologist that was kind
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: of shadow writing helping him with all of the micro
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: and all the people in Sinclair Lewis are really people
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: at the Rockefeller Institute. He's changed all the names, so
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: it's it's a real bunch of the like at the
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: dawn of medical science in interstment, so I think it
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: is accurate.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: Still, there number of novels centered around diseases, right, I
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: mean Camu has one.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the play yeah, and yeah, The Magic Mountain Is
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 4: Said is about tuberculosis and a tuberculosis sanitarium. There's a
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 4: whole bunch of I have like a list of them
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: because I try to read them. Sometimes I read a
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 4: whole novel just for one sentence about nineteen eighteen. But yeah,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: there's but there's a lot of famous, uh depictions. Even
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 4: in Le miserrab I think Fantine has she has tuberculosis.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: I'm sure, Michael, are you confident cancer will be cured
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: in our lifetime? That AI will produce stunning medical breakthroughs
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: over the next few decades.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: So there's not going to be one cure for cancer.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: I always don't like when people say because cancer can
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: be caused by lots of things, So certain cancers are
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: completely curable already now or completely preventable now. So I
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: do think that the mysteries of cancer and they'll be
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: much more personalized therapy and much more advanced therapies that
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: are happening now. And I do think there's going to
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 4: be people that come in though with stage four cancer
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: that they've not seen a doctor, that they're not going
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: to be curable at that stage. But I think that
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: early stage cancers, I think that's game and we'll probably
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: get better at screening with with with better scans and
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 4: blood tests. That's all getting that's all kind of catapulting,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: and I think that I think, yes, we could probably
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 4: think about.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: Early stage cancers all being curable.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: Obviously not an oncologism speaking a little bit just as
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: a general physician on this, but I think that that's
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: not that's not unreasonable to me.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: Is RF case attitude towards vaccines, Who the drive to
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: get goals vaccinate for HPV?
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: Well, he said that that he said that the vaccine
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: causes cervical case. He said the opposite, So yes, it has.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 4: You know, look you look at the data and who's
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: not getting vaccinated against HPV in the United States. It's
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: people with commercial insurance and people who are white. So
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 4: it's it's not an access so you would because people say,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 4: you know, it's the poor people that aren't getting the vacine.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: It's actually the opposite. So yes, I think RFK is
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: rhetoric against HPV. He is suing he's one of the
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: he was one of the people the lawyers suing Mirk
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: over HPV and his son is the lead lawyer suing
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 4: Merk and RFK was getting kickbacks or not. He was
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: getting a finder's fee to refer to people to his
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: son for this lawsuit against Merk, And you remember, so
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: HPV was. It's interesting because they this is one of
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 4: the most miraculous vaccines. It basically can eliminate cervical cancer,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: female genital cancers, head and net cancers. It's it's a
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 4: really incredible vaccines, Like Australia has used it to the
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: to the highest level and they basically have no cervical cancer.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: So this is the dumbest one to be against.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, oh uh. What your view on the potential
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: AI to produce medical breakthroughs.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: I think it there is that potential. I think we're
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 4: already seeing it with companies like that. There's like alpha
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 4: fold where they're predicting protein folding. So yes, I think
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: AI is. I think it will have great, great promise.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: I don't know how good it is yet for everything,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: and this still probably needs to be a human in
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: the loop for most of it, but I do think.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: It's it's very useful.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: I think I use, you know, the l ll MS
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: a lot for medical work, and I find it to
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: be mostly accurate. I haven't seen anything completely throw me off.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 4: It's more likely to throw me on something normal. If
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: I ask you know who is in this movie with you,
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: it's more likely to get that wrong. But when I
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 4: say something about a medical question, I ask it, it's
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 4: usually pretty good and it will give you sources. And
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 4: there are special medical ones that you have to have
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: a license to use that I that I use too
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: as well.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: Interesting Lowie asks, the internet is full of ads for
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: vitamins for your eyes, like lectines, et cetera. What do
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: you think of these vitamins?
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: I probably don't know enough exactly within those vitamins. Obviously,
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: vitamin A is really important and certain being replete. But
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of this vitamin stuff is a
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: little bit shady because most people who eat a regular
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: American diet are going to be pretty replete in most vitamins,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: with the exception of vitamin D, but most of them
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: I think are just giving you extra I don't know
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 4: that it actually changes anything, so I'd have to know
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: exactly what was going on there. But I'm usually suspect
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: of these vitamins saying they're going to do all these
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: crazy things.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: So I is suppose that there was a big study
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: and the two compounds that combined. All my eye doctors
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: who recommended these, I've got dry h maculate degeneration, and
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: they all say it's really crucial and you should take it.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: So yeah, so I will defer an optalmologist on all
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 4: of that. And there are other treatments for maculator for
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: macular generation as well, but just for normal eye health,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 4: I just think eat a regular diet.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: But I think that's right, that's right. Let's see. Okay,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: Jacob says he sent a question on email. Okay, I
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: think I found it. Let's see, right, from my understanding
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: and experience in the medical field, most treatment is over
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: in towards disease prevention and restoring patients the baseline level
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: of normal human functioning, rather than enhancing performance beyond the baseline.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: For example, most physicians would not prescribe performance enhancing drugs,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: even if they risk were well understood and could potentially
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: be mitigated through adjunctive therapies. A non sports parallel might
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: be an individual rational choosing to use medication to improve focus,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: increase energy, or regulate hunger single signals GLP based dogs,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: for example, in pursuit of a higher personal value. There
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: are also historical cases such as I Rand, where medication
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: use may have supported intense intellectual output even if it
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: carried potential health trade offs. This raises a broad a question.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: How would an objectivist oriented medical ecosystem approach prescribing decisions
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: when balancing the side effects, their mitigation, and a patient's
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: broad a higher K personal values.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 4: Well, I think he kind of answers the question himself.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 4: I think you have to look at the hierarchy of
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: values and making sure people understood the risks and the
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 4: trade off. And there may be certain things that a
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 4: doctor's not comfortable doing because the risk might be Like
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 4: prescribing anabolic steroids to somebody for a bodybuilding thing. I
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: probably wouldn't do even if I thought that they were
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: legitimately trying because I think the risk I just think
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 4: it's not it's a short term. They're not thinking rationally
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 4: about it, so I probably would advise against it. But
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 4: I think that there will be a time when people
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 4: are using stimulants in order to be able to have
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 4: superior cognitive performance. And I think the GLP one drugs
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 4: are one aspect of that, where their people are using
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 4: them in microdose levels which are not meant to lose
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 4: weight but to get the help benefits for it, or
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 4: people using drugs like met Foreman for longevity. So that's
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 4: all starting to occur.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: It just took some time.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 4: I think we had to catch up and be able
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 4: to cure diseases before we started to enhance people. And
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 4: obviously Neurlink, which is you know, a musc's company, is
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 4: trying to figure out ways to augment So I think
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 4: this is coming. And I think people and if you
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 4: think about cosmetic surgery, and that's always been that you know,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: that's all done for to enhance people, to make them
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: look better, So that that's there's always been that. I
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 4: think it's now it's getting a little bit more into
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 4: the mainstream and probably will only increase.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's yeah, I mean the promise of the promise
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: of individualized medicine is it's still just a promise, but
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: it is. It is exciting to think about what you know.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, my my, my, my DNA sequenced and they
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: correlated with the latest stuff, and they tell me what
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: I'm susceptible to. But they also tell me, for example,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: which drugs I absorbed slowly and which I absolved fast,
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: and which interact for me that you know, wouldn't interact
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: with somebody else. So it's fascinating. What's just around the corner.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 4: It seems like, Yeah, once insurance companies start paying for
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 4: that kind of stuff, then I think you'll started seeing
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 4: it open up, because right now it's kind of a
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: boutique thing and there's only a few doctors that are
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 4: doing it and it's all cash pay, and I think
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: so it's not something that many people, many doctors can
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 4: actually specialize in.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: And it makes sense. I mean, if if international insurance market,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: it makes sense for them to invest in prevention.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, as long as people.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 4: Right now, people change their insurance companies so frequently that
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: the insurance companies don't care because you're the tied to jobs.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: So I work at company X. I've got this insurance,
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 4: I now am a company why I've gotten it? So
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 4: the company doesn't care. They just got to support you
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 4: for three years or something. So what if you had
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 4: insurance was more rational? Yes, then I think they would
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 4: be They would be doing that all the time.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: Yep, right, Nathan. So, one of the criticisms I've heard
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: people make of the COVID vaccine is that it doesn't
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: even fit the definition of a vaccine. Can you explain
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: this criticism and respond to it?
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 4: I think it's because this was the first time that
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 4: mRNA was used in that technology, so the vaccine was
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 4: overly narrow And I think, but what what does a
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: vaccine do? As a concept? It is giving yourself a
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 4: substance that stimulates the immune system to specifically make a
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 4: response against the pathogen. And that's basically what mRNA does.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 4: So and if you know, I would tell people if
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 4: if someone is in I've read, you know, Leonard Peacock's
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 4: discussion of definitions. That's I think completely consistent with it.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 4: That you're learning more and so you have to the
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 4: concept expanded. The definition is going to change, but the
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 4: essence is still the same. It's still doing the exact
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 4: same thing. So what people were doing is being very
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 4: concrete bound and looking at a definition before m RNA
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: vaccine was envisioned as a vaccine and saying, well, it
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 4: doesn't say that, so it can't be that. And they
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 4: had to and then and then they changed the vacs.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 4: They changed the definition to basically accommodate this new knowledge
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: that we had. And then they said, oh, they just
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 4: changed the definition for this. I'm not understanding that the
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 4: context of knowledge widened and deepened and it required a
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 4: definition change, and that happens with lots of scientific concepts.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 3: It's not uncommon.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 4: It's just that this became part of this crazy conspiracy cabal,
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 4: thinking that that people were just trying to change all
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 4: the rules.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: But that wasn't the case.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 4: And I was working on mRNA vaccine policy back in
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 4: twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen. I wrote papers about it, so
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 4: it's not as if this came from nowhere.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: So the regional definition of vaccine was it.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 4: Was like a protein, a protein substance that was injected,
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 4: because that's all the vaccines were.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: We're all protein.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 4: They were either you're giving like an inactivated part of
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 4: a part of the virus, part of the bacteria, some
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 4: protein of that that belonged to that pathogen. This time
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 4: you're giving the genetic material that codes for that protein
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 4: that So it's a different type of vaccine, but it's
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 4: still with the same purpose in mind. So it would
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 4: not make sense to call it something other than a vaccine.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 4: And you don't multiply cont isn't that rams raasily? You
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: don't multiply concepts out you know, there's no reason to
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 4: call it anything other than a vaccine because that's exactly
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 4: what it's doing.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: Yep, thanks Nathan Not you have a jagurrhithm. I've heard
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: room is large segments of the NHS are going to
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: be privatized. The bittiest people have had enough of dying
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: on waiting lists. Any truth to this, I.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 4: Don't know any details about that other than what I
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 4: might have read in anything. I spent my third year
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 4: of medical school in England in the year two thousand
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 4: and the people they love the NHS to a degree
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 4: that I've never seen. And the thing is they have
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 4: this really robust private market in England because they have
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 4: everybody covered on the NHS. The private doctors are able
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 4: to do things that we can't deal in the United States.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 4: So I don't know that they're ever going to completely
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think they could. They're definitely offloading certain
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 4: things into the private sector when they can, but I
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 4: don't think that they're going to get away from like
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 4: the baseline NHS. And interestingly, when you think about some
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: of the discussions I have on health policy, we think
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 4: about this kind of two tiered system that they have
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 4: in England is probably better than ours in certain ways.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 4: Like the private sector in England, what you can do
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 4: is so much more innovative because here you can't function
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 4: outside of Medicare, and it's very difficult for a doctor
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: to function outside of Medicare and make any kind of livelihood.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: Nature have a yagorithm. Will Americans never tolerate a fully
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: socialized medical system?
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 4: I mean, right now, the United States government spends more
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 4: on healthcare than any other and any other country that
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 4: tax dollars, So I think it's it's I don't like
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 4: when people say that we don't have a socialized system,
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 4: because I think we mostly do. It's just a very
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 4: small little sections that are not completely socialized. But in general,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 4: I think maybe the name. They wouldn't like to call
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 4: it that. But what is medicare that's socialized medicine for
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 4: people over sixty five? What is medici socialized medicine for
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 4: people below the poverty line? And what is the Veterans Administration?
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 4: That are all socialized medicine schemes that we have. So
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 4: I don't know that we you just have to call
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 4: it something different. And I think they'll tolerate it because
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 4: they did and they look, look how hard it is
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 4: to repeal Obamacare.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: They couldn't do it.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: And yeah, and I think that's almost fifty percent of
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: all Americans once you take old people, poor people, and
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: the VA. I think that Medicaid just Medicaid, it's like
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: ninety million people.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 4: More dollars are spent by taxpayer, spend more money on
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 4: healthcare than private dollars. It's I have a lecture, there's
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 4: somewhere on YouTube about that where I crunch the numbers
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 4: and I show that the US actually spends more, like
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 4: it's even more than countries that are traditionally called socialized.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: Natuavi JOGORITHM. Has Trump done anything positive in the healthcare space,
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: any deregulation.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 4: No, not that, No, I don't think I think he's
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 4: increased regulation of anything in the healthcare space because RFK,
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 4: he's put a crazy person in charge of it who's
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 4: ruling with an iron fist. I mean, doctor Oz is
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 4: ahead of CMS, the Center for Medicare and MEDICAIDS Services,
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 4: and you know, some of the stuff he does can
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 4: be someone. They haven't been as bad with some innovation
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 4: that goes on with CMS. But I wouldn't say there's
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 4: anything good that's happened. You know, the best thing Trump
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 4: did with healthcare is operational warp speed and he doesn't
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 4: even claim it.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: Clark says, are the best doctors leaving the industry? Will
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: we see doctor in those shortages? Unless irregulation is introduced
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: in the healthcare field.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 4: We always have doctor in nurse shortages. I think they're
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 4: mostly artificial and because of regulations. I think what it's
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 4: actually interesting there is this weird brain drain going on
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 4: so Canada, which has a socialized system. There are American
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 4: doctors leaving to practice in Canada because they find it
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 4: more palatable, and the Canadian government is reducing regulations for
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 4: Americans to go there. When I go to medical conferences,
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 4: all the Canadian provinces have like little stands there and
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 4: booths come to Canada. And one of my infectious disease
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 4: friends just moved to New Zealand. I had to fill
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 4: out his paperwork to get a license. I had to
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 4: do his referral form for New Zealand. So there are
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 4: America doctors leaving for what are called, you know, quote
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 4: unquote more socialized systems because they find it the quality
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 4: of life better. So so it's it's really interesting because
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 4: it's in the United States. I think we have the
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 4: worst of both worlds. I mean we have it's not
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 4: this mongrel system we have is worse than any of them.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 4: So in that sense, I mean there you can get
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 4: what you need sometimes, but there's so much bureaucracy and
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 4: red tape and and so you get it's just kind
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 4: of the I would just say it's the worst.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you have good in health insurance, it
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: seems like you get good treatment here. I mean, if
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: you if you have a good health insurance policy, yeah.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think yeah in an individual level, yes, but
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 4: I think they look at it as a society level,
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 4: it's probably not good. Even with good insurance, you may
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 4: end up getting stuck in an eight hour wait in
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 4: the emergency department.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, I'm going on uh be on Medicare within
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: a couple of months. So it's a new world for me,
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: all right. Baker says many doctors work so hard that
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: they miss out on life. Do you think the right
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: personality can make time for an outside life, meaningful hobbies,
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: no matter what the speciality. If so, how do they
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: do it?
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 4: I think it's really hard at some ask some parts
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 4: of it. So I always tell people when someone comes
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 4: to me that they want to go into medicine. Also,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 4: is there anything else you'd rather do? Just anything?
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 3: You just didn't do that because you.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: Are going to especially during residency, when you're basically a resident,
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 4: you live in the hospital. You reside in the hospital,
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 4: you will kind of lose your young adulthood lives. I mean,
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 4: you could still do things, but it's not like your
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 4: other friends. There were twenty six or twenty said they're
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 4: doing all kinds of fun stuff, But you have to
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 4: get up at four in the morning. So there was
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 4: times I had to be at the hospital at four
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 4: in the morning and then be there for thirty six
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 4: hours straight. That's really difficult and you're just so tired,
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 4: and then you end up it's hard for you to
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 4: make It's harder to make friends outside of medicine because
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 4: it's like you've been in the war with all of
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 4: these people. So I have these bonds with people that
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 4: I went to medical school with their residency. With that
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 4: it's always like bond. I just pick up the conversation
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 4: where we left off. But yes, I do think it's
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 4: really hard to do that. But once you get through residency,
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 4: yes you can do that, and you have to try.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 4: And in residence has gotten easier in terms of they're
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 4: not as hard on residence. They realized that that was
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 4: causing massive quality of life issues and mental issues. So
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 4: when I started there was the first year, my first
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 4: year of residency, there was no work hour limits. My
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 4: second year it was eighty hours a week. That that
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 4: was the max you were allowed to work, and you
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 4: had to you couldn't work more than thirty hours straight,
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 4: which is still a lot, but that got Now it's
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: even gotten better with protected time and sleep because I
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 4: can remember falling asleep driving home all the time from
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 4: the hospital and just it.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: Becomes really really gruel.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 4: And I used to know that's how I know there's
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 4: one hundred and sixty eight hours in a week, because
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 4: I used to think, how many hours did I work
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 4: this week?
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 3: What percentage?
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: God, that's crazy.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: I mean my dad was a doctor and he worked
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: out of socialized medicine. Say he had to do. He
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: got paid by the government, so you know, you know,
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: to make it living, you have to have a private
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: practice on top of it. He worked so many hours,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: he would NonStop. We barely of a sin. That was
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: my impression of medicine.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 4: That's what all, like every generation says, because both my
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 4: parents or doctors and will say, you're complaining about this.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 3: What we didn't do this? We didn't we had we
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: had to that.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, if the US it turned me off medicine.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: I looked at how my father was living, and I said,
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: I don't want that. If the US had to do
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: travel screening today, was anything learned from COVID or would
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: it be complete mass again?
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 4: It would be a complete mess again because it will
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 4: be all tied up in immigration with Stephen Miller controlling
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 4: all of that and using because a law called Title
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 4: forty two, they would put that back in place in
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 4: a second if they could, so he would, They've already
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 4: floated that that they were going to even though that
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 4: they're causing the measles outbreaks, they want to use Title
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 4: forty two to stop people coming in because of the
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 4: measles outbreaks that they that are that they're causing in
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 4: Mexico for example. So you know, I think it would
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 4: be a disaster now because they would use it as
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 4: just like they did in COVID. They put that in
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 4: place not because they were worried about COVID, but because
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 4: they thought it was an easy way to accomplish their
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 4: policy goal with the southern border.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, woman to ask cancer vaccine activate epic epitope compatible
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: T cells, how high do you rate the risk for
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: autoimmune reactions? And could cause T cells solve this problem?
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 4: Well, so, anytime you're manipulating the immune system, you have
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 4: to make sure you're not revving it up too much
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 4: and you get an autoimmune reaction. And cart cells are
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 4: a special type of designer T cell that have revolutionized
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 4: the treatment of certain types of cancers like lymphoma multi myloma.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 4: I actually talked about them in a lecture I gave
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 4: it OCONN several years ago. But they themselves can cause
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 4: autoimmune phenomenon. So yes, I think that's that's it's like
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 4: a very you know, define line of modulating the immune
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 4: system and fine tuning it so that you get what
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 4: you want without getting what you don't want. But that
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 4: that's all what oncologists are doing. That they're giving this
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 4: and then they're giving an immune blocker and then trying
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 4: to it's very sophisticated titration that's going on to make
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 4: sure you don't push someone over the edge into an
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: autoimmune crisis.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: Wellman says, I hood use the POC develops race genetic
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: specific biological weapons, is that the future of fascism?
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 4: That's what that's that's what people have been talking about,
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 4: and that's what I think Vladimir Putin is talking abount
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 4: when he talks about weapons with the of genetic nature
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 4: being able to specifically target. I don't know that they
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 4: have that because humans are too similar. It's very hard
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 4: to say this is only going to target the wigers
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 4: or something like that, which is what people worry about,
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 4: or so I don't know that we're at that point,
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 4: but that's what they There's a lot of genetic data
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 4: that the Chinese have collected, including American data because there
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 4: was the Beijing Genomics Institute was doing a lot of
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 4: genomics for US companies and US universities.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 3: So there's a lot of questions what they're trying to
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: do with that.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 4: I don't think the science is there yet to be
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 4: able to individually target target a race with any kind
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 4: of high degree of fidelity.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: But one Jews immune to COVID.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 3: That's that's that's that's what That's what our secretary, he.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: Said of Case, said that, Yeah, in implying the Jews,
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: you know, created it or put it out there. Well, man,
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: how could we change our immune system to replicate the
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: resilience seen in bats? Could we change n F folees
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: for it to destroy malaria pleso media?
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, so's a couple. Yeah right, I'm going to
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 4: teach you how to pronounce all those words. Yeah, so
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 4: could we change I don't know that. So evolution gave
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 4: Evolution favored that in bats, and it favored our immune system. Remember,
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 4: bats don't live as long as us. There's other things
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 4: that the immune system does, so I think you have
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 4: to there's a trade off. So there's stuff we can
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 4: learn and the people are trying to understand that because
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 4: the bats of mus system doesn't create all this inflammatory
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 4: reaction when they get infected with viruses. So we're trying
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 4: to learn how to do that. But I don't think
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 4: you could have an exact that human system system in
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 4: a human and have it have you lived the same
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 4: life because the mune system also does cancer surveillance, does
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 4: a lot of other things, can you, So yes, we can.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 4: There are so anophalies are the type of mosquitos that
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 4: spread malaria. Yes, there are people trying to genetically engineer
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 4: anophalies in order to not have them be able to
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 4: transmit plasmodia, which is malaria.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 3: So yes, that's happening.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 4: Bill Gates has been a major funder of this and
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 4: a major advocate to his credit with genetically modified mosquito.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 4: So I do think that is one way We've got
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 4: malaria vaccines and things, but genetically modified mosquitos are the
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 4: way to deal with all of these mosquito born illnesses.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 4: And it can be done very elegantly, very targeted, only
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 4: hitting the right mosquitos and not the wrong mosquitos. But
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 4: it's been opposed by a lot of people, but I
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 4: think it's time is common. They have been doing these releases,
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 4: like countries like Djibouti have released genetically modified mosquitoes.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: Good.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's happening in small play It's harder to
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 4: do it in in industrial countries because of everybody flip
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 4: flips out. But they have, they've they've done genetically modified
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 4: mosquitos and parts of Key West as well. So so
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 4: this has happened in Cayman Islands has done it. So
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 4: it is happening in small enclaves. And as soon as
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 4: you say genetic mosquitoes and Bill Gates, you're going to
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 4: get conspiracy theorists on all of it because they think
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 4: he's going to control the world with genetically modified mosquitos.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 3: But but uh, that's uh because I always.
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 4: Tell people, if you want to just go and down
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 4: a rabbit hole, just just google Bill Gates genetically modified
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 4: mosquitoes and see what you find on the internet.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: I could just imagine they need to bring that program
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: to Puerto Rico. We get weight too much doneye dungee fever.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the whole, the whole Dengay branch of the CDC
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 4: is in in Puerto Rico. That's where they study it. Yeah,
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 4: so I think they they I think it's been talked
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 4: about to do that in Puerto ricause they just haven't
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 4: done it.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: Uh shasbad. Have you ever worked with HeLa.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: Cells, HeLa cells, HeLa celves.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 4: No, I don't do basic lab work. So HeLa cells
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 4: are an immortalized cell line that came from a woman,
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 4: Henrietta Lax. It's a very famous book called The Immortal
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 4: Life of Henrietta Lax. It got turned into a movie,
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 4: and this was a big thing about consent because her
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 4: cells have been used in research, but she never consented.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 4: They were cervical cancer cells and she died. They used
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 4: her cells for all kinds of medical innovations and there
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 4: wasn't consent. So there was a big settlement in a
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 4: big lawsuit over this, and then they made a really
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 4: great book called The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lax.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: What was interesting about her cells that justified.
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 4: It's one of the first immortal cell lines that didn't
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 4: die because there were cancer cells and they just were
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 4: the ones that everybody used. And this all happened at
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 4: Johns Hopkins as well, So it's a really interesting movie
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 4: that they made. I think rose Byrne is in the
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 4: movie and so it's a really interesting story.
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: Miss Underest. How should someone think about choosing between butter
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: and modorine.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 3: I think you have to look at the ingredient. I don't.
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 4: I think that you have to look at the ingredients
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 4: and decide what to pick your poison. I don't know
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 4: that there's any strong data on either one. I'd have
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 4: to look at media. I haven't actually made that comparison
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 4: to my mind. I usually just get whatever's whatever I
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 4: find in the fridge at the hospital, so it's usually
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 4: some neither one of those is probably some weird substitute
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 4: that they bought.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, my dad was was involved in the early research
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: on cholesterol. See he switched us all to morgorine pretty
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: early and away from by that, and I think and
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: then at some point switched everybody back.
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 3: I think we don't quite understand this.
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 4: We do know that statins are good, and I think
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 4: the new the new guidelines in the American Health Association
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 4: are going American Heart Association are going to really push
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 4: statins on younger age groups as a recommendation just to
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 4: get the cholesterol as low as possible and all the
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 4: other little things like lipoprotein, little a all of that
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 4: stuff is all coming to the foe now, so more
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 4: people will die, it will probably matter less because it's
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 4: going to be chemically controlled.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: Miss again. How how was the most recent flu season?
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: Was the flu vaccine administered a home run or a strike?
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 3: I would say it was like maybe like a bunt
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 3: or something.
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 4: It wasn't quite a strike, but it wasn't quite It
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 4: was nowhere near a home run, So it was a
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 4: pretty It was a moderately severe flu season. We had
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 4: about one hundred and twenty children die. It was mismatched.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 4: The main strain that was driving this was called subclade K.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 4: It was a miss in terms of the vaccine, but
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 4: the vaccine did protect against severe disease, but not so
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 4: much against mild disease or infection.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 3: So it wasn't great.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 4: And this is why we need mRNA vaccines because they
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 4: have to make that decision like five or six months
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 4: ahead of time to decide what they're going to put
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 4: in there. So the flu season is still going on
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 4: in the southern hemisphere, something could change and now you're
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 4: stuck with what you put in there because they need
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 4: that lead time because we're using old technology. If you
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 4: hadn mRNA. You can make that decision. You can move
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 4: that decision up several months and get a more accurate
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 4: flu vaccine.
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: Cool miss says, why is limes vaccine available for dogs
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: but not humans.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 4: Because the anti vaccine movement didn't kill it, so the
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 4: Lime vaccine was available. There used to be a human
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 4: line vaccine called Limericks that Smith Cleim Beacham made and
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 4: the anti vaccine movement went after it and said, this
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 4: causes this, this causes this, We're going to sue you.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 4: We're going to sue you. And the company said, forget it.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 4: We're not making that much money on this anyway, We're
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 4: just pulling it, and they pulled it. So that's why
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 4: we have no human line vaccine. And they just haven't
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 4: been that aggressive with dogs, even though there is an
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 4: anti vaccine movement in pets that the dogs have been
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 4: able to get a line vaccine, but there is so
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 4: Pfizer and Valneva have a one that looks very promising
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 4: that the FDA is going to review. It went through
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 4: Phase three pretty well, so we may have a line
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 4: vaccine for humans soon.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 3: Again.
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, good miss. To what degree is nicotine protective against viruses,
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: any virus in particular.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 4: I don't know that data enough to be able to
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 4: say whether or not it's protective. And I think you
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 4: have to be careful because some of the things might
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 4: have protection in vitro in a test tube and a
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 4: cell line, but not necessarily in humans. And how are
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 4: you getting nicotine? Most people get nicotine through cigarettes and cigarettes.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 4: The negative aspect on viruses in terms of paralyzing your
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 4: ability to clear your secretions and all of that makes
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 4: you more susceptible to viral infection.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 3: So I don't know the data that's he's.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 4: Specifically speaking about, but I would just be careful when
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 4: you're looking at that to make sure it's not just
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 4: test tube stuff, because lots of things including ivermectin and
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 4: hydroxychloroquin can kill lots of viruses in a test to
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 4: but in human they don't work that way.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: I'm sure. I think bleach kills viruses in a test
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: tube as well.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, and UV light and all kinds of stuff
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 4: that Trump wanted to put inside your body.
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: What tour or tours would you recommend to someone visiting Pittsburgh.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 4: But tours, so it depends on what you like. I mean,
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 4: Pittsburgh is a major industrial city. So I think that
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 4: you it's got three rivers. You've got really nice stadiums
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 4: where the baseball the PNC Park where the Pirates play
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 4: in Hinesfield, or the Steelers play now it's called something different,
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 4: Acroshore Stadium that those are really good. You know, there's
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 4: lots of natural History museum. There is the Carry Furnace,
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 4: which is an old steel mill that you can go see.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 4: You can go there's a restaurant right across the street
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 4: from US Steel's j Edgar Thompson steel Works. So you're
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 4: sitting in this nice restaurant and you've got this fiery
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 4: steel thing right beside you. That's really cool to see
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 4: to it's it's in Braddock, which is a suburb. It's
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 4: actually where John Fetterman was the mayor who's now a senator.
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 4: But so that's that's there as well. I think that
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 4: you can go up the inclines to Mount Washington and
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 4: walk around Mount Washington, have a really great view. There's
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 4: I would go to. You know, you could walk around
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 4: Carnegie Mallen's campus. That's someth's that Andrew Carnegie Andrew Mellon built,
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 4: which I think because one of the gems of Pittsburgh
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 4: the Cathedral Learning. You can go all the way to
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 4: the top and see all kinds of it's really big
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 4: building at the University of Pittsburgh campus. There's lots of things.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 4: It's a very livable city and it's like an hour
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 4: by flant plane from every major city.
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 3: And I grew up here, so I'm.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: Very biased as there. You know, we had an oak
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 2: on there, right, And yeah, I was surprised to nice
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: it was.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: It didn't it wasn't didn't live. You know, there was
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: a reputation of being the steel place and it's ugly
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: and it's doody, and it wasn't at all.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: It was actually quite quite nice.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 4: After all the steel crashed here, then the city rebuilt
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 4: as a tech in healthcare megasine. I mean, it's the
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 4: healthcare capital of UPMC. The University of Pittsford Medical Center
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 4: is the biggest academic medical center in the world. And
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 4: we've got all those Google and Yahoo and Uber and
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 4: all of those big robotics companies are here doing work.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: So it's really it's really cool.
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it says could we design an m and
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 2: e vaccine to build a high precision re rus transcrypt
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: as taste to make HIV therapy is more effective as
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 2: mutations would slow down.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 4: Well, so I think they're just trying to challenge you
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 4: with pronunciation here instead of because it just no, I
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 4: don't think you need to do that for HIV. So
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 4: that's a very technical question. But there HIV is very
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 4: easily treatable right now. I think our medications work really
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 4: really well. I don't think you need to do much
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 4: more refining to them. I think we're and I don't
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 4: think obviously AI can make drugs better, less side effects, cleaner,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 4: more attacks to the target, but to attack the target better.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 4: But I think we're so I guess the answer is yes.
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 4: But I think they were just trying to say big
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 4: words to make you stumble on them.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: Well maybe maybe they've got an idea for a startup
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 2: and they want to know, uh want to know?
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so a I can help anything.
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 4: I think if you use it appropriately, every drug can
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 4: be refined and made better and cleaner and easier to use.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: All right, last question, Richard asks can you command a
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: good website for a layperson to check drug interactions?
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 3: I would actually use.
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 4: I would actually use the AI tools yeah, I think
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 4: they're there, and then just look and see where their
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 4: sources and then also then ask your doctor or something.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 4: You know, once you get it, don't take it like
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 4: ask your doctor or call a pharmacist and ask them,
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 4: not just to double check what you're doing.
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 3: But I think the a I tools are really good at.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: That kind of or something. Yeah. Yeah, good, well this
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: is me fun.
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks as all right, I'll see you next time.
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: I'll see you, yes somewhere all right, bye, bye, guys.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: I'll see you guys tomorrow for for a Use roundup
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: at three pm