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What 36 Years as a Cop Did to His Faith | The Week in Bible Prophecy · Prophecy Watchers

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the program today.
• 0:11
  Speaker 3: Manu Gonzalez here in studio, and I have with me
• 0:13
  Speaker 3: a good friend, Michael Doyle. And Mike has written a
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  Speaker 3: book called Compton Don't Surf. And to me, he was
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  Speaker 3: a member of our church where I pastored in Lake Tahoe.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: And of course, you know, him and I got to
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: be good friends while I was pastoring there. But now
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: he's come out with this book, which I think is.
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  Speaker 2: Very, very fascinating.
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  Speaker 3: We had long talks about what his life was like
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: and what it means to be a Christian and different things.
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  Speaker 3: And so I think that what he has written here
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  Speaker 3: is a very powerful testimony, especially in all of what
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: we're seeing today in our culture about the whole law
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  Speaker 3: enforcement and police. And over the last few years, it's
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  Speaker 3: kind of been quite crazy. So, Mike, welcome to the program.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you, Mondo.
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  Speaker 3: So what I like to do here at the beginning,
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  Speaker 3: just for people, is you got this book, Compton Don't Surf.
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  Speaker 2: Compton, like the city of Compton. There it is.
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  Speaker 3: And I remember being in the 80s and 90s hearing
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: about Compton and some of the rap music, which I
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: know you love. And so give us a little background
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: about you and where you came from. And Compton Don't Surf,
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  Speaker 3: explain the title for us.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I grew up in a... Predominantly, well, it was
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  Speaker 1: all white suburbia area. We had a Catholic neighborhood. As
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: a matter of fact, we had 12 Catholic boys just
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: in one cul-de-sac in my area. And we all surfed.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: We all played sports. And I just grew up swimming
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  Speaker 1: and surfing and worked for Disneyland.
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  Speaker 2: And this is all in Southern California, right?
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  Speaker 1: In Southern California. And then I went to Cal Poly,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: San Luis Obispo. And again, you know, was played water polo,
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  Speaker 1: swam and surfed a lot. And then, yeah, did his
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: brief stint in the army before I went back on
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: the reserves. And I was kind of looking for a job.
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  Speaker 1: And my brother said, well, why don't you become a
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  Speaker 1: police officer? And I've had always held the police officers
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  Speaker 1: at highest esteem. And whenever a police officer came around,
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  Speaker 1: I would, you know, very respectful of them. And I
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: always noticed people treated them with a lot of respect
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  Speaker 1: and that they were here to help us. So I
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  Speaker 1: became a police officer. And back in the early 80s,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: in 82, we didn't have the Internet. And my friend said, well,
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  Speaker 1: why don't you come to Compton with me? I'm also
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  Speaker 1: going there.
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  Speaker 2: And.
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  Speaker 1: They're, you know, they're looking for police officers. So not
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: knowing what Compton was all about.
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  Speaker 2: Or L.A., what L.A.
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  Speaker 1: Was about, because I was a South Southern Orange County kid.
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  Speaker 1: I wasn't an L.A. kid. I elected, I said, oh, sure,
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  Speaker 1: that sounds like a great time. And, of course, you know,
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  Speaker 1: they very quickly hired me. Because I had a college
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  Speaker 1: education and I was also in the service and I
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  Speaker 1: showed up for work. And that's where the story begins.
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  Speaker 1: And it's just turned my world upside down. And I
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  Speaker 1: said it all like in the back of the book.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And in the back of the book, I said in
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  Speaker 1: big letters, I wasn't prepared for the violent streets of Compton.
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  Speaker 1: I must change to survive. And that's what I go
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  Speaker 1: into is how I negatively changed to survive seeing the
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  Speaker 1: trauma and the horrors of working in a ghetto.
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  Speaker 3: You know, the stuff that you bring forth, I mean,
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  Speaker 3: obviously your style of writing is very engaging. And just
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  Speaker 3: the stories, I'm just sitting here like, This is unbelievable.
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  Speaker 2: Is this real? I mean, is this America? Where is
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  Speaker 2: this at? And to me, I found it interesting, again,
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  Speaker 2: the way that you weave.
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  Speaker 3: And maybe you can give us a little bit more
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  Speaker 3: of a background in that, you know, your life prior
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  Speaker 3: and then your life in, you got two completely different worlds, right?
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  Speaker 3: And you mentioned the ghetto versus, you know, I don't know,
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  Speaker 3: whatever the the middle class or white class, whatever that is,
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  Speaker 3: you know, in the different places, but totally different world.
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  Speaker 3: And you're coming in to talk about the demographics as well,
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  Speaker 3: not just of the area, but also of the police department.
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  Speaker 1: Well, the demographics of the police department were was about 60, 40,
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  Speaker 1: 60 percent African-American and 40 percent white and some Hispanics.
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  Speaker 1: So it was mangled in there and stuff. And you're
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  Speaker 1: absolutely right. I mean, just getting to the police station,
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  Speaker 1: I was involved in numerous shootings, just getting to work.
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  Speaker 1: And that's something you don't normally see as you go there.
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  Speaker 1: And I talk about it, just going there for my
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  Speaker 1: ride along to see if I even want to join
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  Speaker 1: this thing, this police department. Remember, we didn't have... We
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: didn't have maps on our mobile phones. People drew you
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  Speaker 1: a little line and said, take this freeway, then take
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  Speaker 1: this off ramp, keep going, you'll see the police department
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  Speaker 1: on your left.
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  Speaker 4: They didn't tell me that I was going basically into
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  Speaker 4: a war zone and that I describe it as I
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  Speaker 4: was driving along and I'm stopped at stoplights and people
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  Speaker 4: are yelling at me and screaming and I'm hearing gunshots and,
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  Speaker 4: you know.
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  Speaker 1: Like I wrote in the book, when I finally made
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  Speaker 1: it to the police department, I felt like I had
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  Speaker 1: just run the gauntlet and I had made it. But
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  Speaker 1: it was very exciting. And that was the thing that
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  Speaker 1: lured me there was it was very exciting. And of course,
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  Speaker 1: my good friend was already working there. So that that helped, too.
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  Speaker 2: So so you were roughly what, mid 20s at this time?
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  Speaker 1: Yes, I was. 23 23 so fresh out of yeah
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  Speaker 1: fresh out of fresh out of college but you know
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  Speaker 1: I like like I like I wrote in the in
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  Speaker 1: the book and my in my sleeve it you know
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  Speaker 1: if I could just read just a tiny bit it
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  Speaker 1: said you know Engines roaring, sirens blaring, tires squealing. I
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  Speaker 1: try to remain calm as we blast through the debris-strewn
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  Speaker 1: streets of Compton. The vehicle stops. The wanted gang member
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  Speaker 1: leaps from the vehicle and runs towards the government housing projects.
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  Speaker 1: I jump out and begin the chase. He suddenly turns
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  Speaker 1: and fires a shot at me from his cheap little pistol.
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  Speaker 1: I grab my. 44 caliber gun and, while on a
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  Speaker 1: dead run, fire several shots at him. He misses, I miss,
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  Speaker 1: he drops a gun after hearing my gun go off.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Lighting a cigarette and.
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  Speaker 1: Reloading at my patrol vehicle, I reflect on what a blonde-haired,
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  Speaker 1: blue-eyed surfer is doing in the ghetto chasing and shooting
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  Speaker 1: at gang members in the projects.
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  Speaker 2: In the projects.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so that was the other thing is how
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: it physically and mentally changed me. I was a two-sport
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: athlete in college, water polo and swimming. Then at the Army,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I won every physical award. When I went to the Academy,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: I won the physical fitness award. Within six months, I
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: was smoking. Smoking. And when people hear that, they're like, you?
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: I go, yeah. Yeah, I was smoking. And then, of course,
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  Speaker 1: the drinking came after that.
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  Speaker 3: So let's talk about that, because so you come in,
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  Speaker 3: as you just mentioned, you're you're you're just, you know,
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  Speaker 3: a young kid just enjoying life. And then you get
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  Speaker 3: put into this. And now because of the nature of
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: of the work and the area and all that.
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  Speaker 2: It begins to change you.
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  Speaker 3: And so talk about that, because obviously you're a believer,
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  Speaker 3: you're a Christian at the time.
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  Speaker 2: Were you a Christian at the time? Explain that for people.
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  Speaker 1: I was. And we were going to, of course, always
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  Speaker 1: go into church. At that time, I had left the
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  Speaker 1: Catholic Church and went more of a Baptist church. And
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: so I was pretty solid. And as I went there,
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  Speaker 1: in the 80s, everybody... Well, the police department smoked. We
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  Speaker 1: had a lot of Vietnam veterans coming back. Everybody was military.
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  Speaker 1: Everybody had done so. Everybody smoked in briefing. And I
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  Speaker 1: was like, oh, my gosh, you know, how are these
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  Speaker 1: guys going to chase people? They're smoking. And until I
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: started going to.
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  Speaker 5: Homicide scenes and really grisly ones, and they start smoking
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  Speaker 5: to actually mask the smell of the body.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
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  Speaker 1: And then they also taught me a technique to put
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: Vicks Vaporub under my nose to do this. But while
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: on training, I went to a very grisly one that
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  Speaker 1: I wrote in the book where my training officer, who
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  Speaker 1: was Special Forces Army and Vicks, and he smoked. And
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  Speaker 1: I wrote about that, too, when my first cigarette was,
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  Speaker 1: he handed it to me after there was a family,
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  Speaker 1: a guy had killed his entire family as we were
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: going through the house and then killed himself. And he said,
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  Speaker 1: you know, do you smoke? And I go, no, but hey,
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  Speaker 1: I could use one. And then I talk about that,
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  Speaker 1: how I started smoking. And of course, what happens when
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: you never smoke? Well, you become dizzy. And I started
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  Speaker 1: getting dizzy. And so I tossed it out the window
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  Speaker 1: and then it came back through the window and actually
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: ended up in his crotch and started burning his pants.
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  Speaker 1: And I was fighting because the guy was huge. The
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  Speaker 1: guy was one of the biggest human beings I had seen.
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  Speaker 1: And I thought he's going to kill me. I was
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  Speaker 1: just a skinny little white kid, you know, that surfed.
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  Speaker 3: When did you start really start seeing the hardening happen
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  Speaker 3: or the kind of the destruction of innocence that you
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  Speaker 3: had prior to that? Because obviously you're coming into like
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  Speaker 3: what you already described. What stands out to you as
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  Speaker 3: one of the things that really changed your world, especially
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  Speaker 3: in the beginning?
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  Speaker 1: I think looking at, and this is why it's important
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  Speaker 1: to understand police officers, we see victims like at the moment,
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  Speaker 1: at the scene. And after seeing victim after victim after victim,
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  Speaker 1: shooting victims, assault victims, rape victims, after seeing that, you
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  Speaker 1: start getting really hardened. And then when you do catch
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: the suspect, cause we'd go look for them. When you
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  Speaker 1: do catch the suspect, you know, you're upset, you're human.
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  Speaker 1: You're not a robot. You just saw a victim and now,
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  Speaker 1: you know, you catch the suspect and you know, they're predators.
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  Speaker 1: And once you catch the, the, the, the, the suspect,
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's hard to turn off your anger. And I
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  Speaker 1: remember going to a lot of scenes where officers had
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  Speaker 1: been killed. And even later on when I was with Fresno,
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  Speaker 1: multiple officers killed at one scene. Or I went to
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  Speaker 1: a mass murder scene in Fresno where, you know, he
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  Speaker 1: had killed seven of his kids and two of his
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  Speaker 1: own daughters. You know, it's hard not to– it's hard–
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  Speaker 1: not to be hardened. And I started seeing myself getting
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  Speaker 1: hardened because I actually started saying, I really don't want
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  Speaker 1: to be a Christian because I don't want to feel that.
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  Speaker 1: I don't want to feel anguish. I don't want to
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  Speaker 1: feel like, you know, turn the other cheek. I didn't
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  Speaker 1: want to feel that love your enemies. I didn't want
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  Speaker 1: to love my enemy. And I wanted to hate my enemy.
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  Speaker 1: And I always wanted to be Just mean and aggressive
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  Speaker 1: because I didn't want to be the nice guy who
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: got killed because I let my guard down.
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  Speaker 3: You know, that's to me super important as I was reading,
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  Speaker 3: and certainly as you and I have talked over the years,
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: the challenge of how does a Christian who is, like
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  Speaker 3: you just said, we have all these commandments about showing
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  Speaker 3: mercy and kindness and love to those that are wicked.
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  Speaker 2: How does that work in practical ways on the force
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  Speaker 2: going out?
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  Speaker 3: Because I think somebody like that, what you just described,
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  Speaker 3: who's willing to obviously murder many people, including his family,
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  Speaker 3: those people, you know, bullies only understand bigger bullies.
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  Speaker 1: Correct.
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  Speaker 3: And so you have to, I'm glad you brought up
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: that Christianity was.
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  Speaker 2: Challenged.
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  Speaker 3: You had this challenge there between what God would want
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: of you or what the Bible says, but how do
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  Speaker 3: we make that in reality when I have to come
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: up to this bully who's just murdered people and I
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: got to take him down or he's resisting or whatever,
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: and just unpack that a little bit for us because,
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: and how did you deal with it?
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  Speaker 1: You hit the nail on the head and that's fantastic
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: understanding what you just said. And that's the conflict. That's
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  Speaker 1: the huge conflict that police officers face right now is
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  Speaker 1: you see victim after victim, and then you're supposed to
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: show compassion or you're supposed to suddenly turn it off.
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  Speaker 1: And I tell people we're not robots. We're human. We
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: have human emotions. We have, you know, we can try
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: and suppress it as much as we can. But, you know,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: when there's a predator out there and we're searching that
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  Speaker 1: predator and We need to have the mindset that it's
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: not compassion. We're hunting him. We're going after him. That's
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  Speaker 1: what tears us up, Mondo. That's why I started drinking.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: We drink a lot after work. They call it choir practice.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: We didn't have psychologists back there back then. Our psychologist
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: was ourselves when we sat around the police cars. I mean,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: police are personal cars and drank beer and and talked
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: about things. We'd be in a shooting with a suspect
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: and we had no one really to turn to at
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: that time. We would we'd go to a park that
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: we knew was secure. And, you know, we would drink
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: and we'd talk about it and stuff. It's it's. the
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: biggest conflict of police officers are faced with now. How
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: do you suppress this type of stuff? I couldn't come
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: home and tell Bonnie what I had seen that day
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: or what just took place on my shift. There's no
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: one to talk to. And other than other police officers,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: a lot of the police officers that some funerals that
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: I was going to were Christians and they had, let
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: their guard down. They had used compassion on the suspect
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: and the suspect killed them. And I remember always going,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: while I'm in law enforcement, I don't want to be
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: a Christian. I don't want to have compassion. I want
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: to be as hard and as tough as I possibly
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: can because I want to survive. It wasn't until my
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: friends started saying, you know, you've changed. You've You're a
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: different personality. It's like you have no remorse when you
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: like arrest people and you're heavy handed. And that's when
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: I started seeing. Yeah, I need a change. But the
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: biggest change was my neighbor who was a Christian. They
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: would hand me a tape of firefighters for Christ. And
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: it was a cassette tape. And it was Bob Vernon
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: from LAPD who talked like a police officer. He was,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: he was a police officer, but related man to man.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: And I started listening to those tapes on the way
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: to work. And that drastically changed me. Like I, I
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: need to get back. I need to get back to
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: the Lord.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And that's good that you have, you know, obviously you,
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: other Christian police officers in similar situations that are also
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: dealing with this. You know, when we look at our,
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: when we look at the world over the past, you know, five, six,
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: seven years, you know, we've seen the, all the stuff
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: that happened in COVID, the riots, and of course the
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: anti-police movement, et cetera. And, you know, if you were
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: to speak to the typical person or the average person,
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: you know, Being where you were, all of us, many
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: of us out here, we're in our comfortable chairs, whatever,
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: and then we see something on television.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: You know, you see something with ice right now. You know,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: ice shot somebody.
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  Speaker 3: And then it's really easy for me to make a
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: judgment sitting in my chair, in my nice comfy chair
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: with nobody around. You know, what do you want people,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: help us understand and what would you want from, what
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: message would you give for people out there that, what
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: might give an instant reaction to, you know, again, maybe what,
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: what the media presents as an, Oh, somebody there, they
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: are shooting somebody again. Well, what's, what's the right way
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: for me to evaluate that?
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: The best way to evaluate that is take a breath,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: know that the media has an agenda and that not everything,
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: what you're seeing is really what happened. I've been on,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: many tactical units, including the SWAT team, but I've bought
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: dope undercover. I've been on numerous high profile incidents and
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: the media is so far away from what it really
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: was and what really happened. And oftentimes what you're seeing
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: is a short clip of what took place afterwards. Like
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: for instance, you brought up the ice shooting and then
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: it wasn't until They start rewinding the camera back a
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: little bit and they go, oh, that's why. Oh, that's
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: what happened. But see, they don't show the entire video
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: or the entire clip. Most, and I got to give
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: the Christian nation, I'll call them, kudos because they really
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: back law enforcement and they really back the military and
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: they understand. They understand us. They understand that that we
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: have just an incredible job to do. It's a small
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: segment that gets a lot of airtime. And so what
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I'd want them to know is when you hear a newscast,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: hold your opinion and investigate it a little bit more.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, we do make mistakes. There's no doubt about it,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: but we're human. But no police officer ever And my
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: entire 36 years really wanted to shoot somebody. Nobody ever
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: wanted to. It was last straw and they go through
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: so much trauma when they pull their weapons and fire
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: at someone. Yeah.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: And this is, this is the typical thing where, again,
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: the media is looking for clicks or views. And like
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: you said, you know, you could go pick out.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: The worst person in any category.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: And then they take that person and they say that
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: this is what is typified of all of the people
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: in that particular category. And that's just, again, that's just
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: false thinking. But what I found was the emotions that react.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: And I saw this with the media and I saw
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: somebody react and they're like, oh, there they go again.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: And I was like, well, that's interesting.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: And it was interesting in my own mind that the
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: emotion of that person I was like, oh, oh no,
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: what happened?
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, did I do something? And then, like
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: you said, then.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: They showed the body cam and you're like, if that
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: person would have waited and said, well, let's wait and
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: see the full story before we give a reaction or
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: a comment.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Or, because I think people put in their heart like, oh,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: there they go again.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: When in reality, once the information came out, you're like, oh,
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: I missed the context. Yeah, context is super important. You
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: have a chapter, you know, called losing faith in there. And,
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: you know, describe that because there's two things that I
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: see happening at once. Once is your own spiritual journey
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: as you, and you talked, you know, about the firefighters
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: for Christ, which began to help you. But then also,
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: you know, how do you, how do you, do you
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: lose faith like in humanity? Cause you're seeing the depravity
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: of humanity. And how do you, how do you, did
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: you ever come back to the, to the point of
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: having a little bit of compassion or you save compassion
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: for later or what?
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: That's very interesting. Good question. As far as absolutely losing
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: faith in humanity, when you're seeing this day in and
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: day out, there wasn't any easy day. It was just
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: a war zone. And that's why my friends really wanted
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: me to write the book. I didn't want to write
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: this book. It brought up too many scars. I'm sorry,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: opened too many wounds. I didn't really want it to,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: but they go, no, Mike, you have a story because
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: you weren't from L.A. You were just an innocent white
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: kid who surfed, ended up in the ghetto and just
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: in the projects. And you need to write about how
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: it changed you and how you changed back. Absolutely losing
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: faith in humanity. And then the other part was I've
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: convinced myself I couldn't feel compassion to people. I had
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: to remain tough and hardened because I could process just
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: the horrific events that were going on and that I
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: was seeing and that I was going to. dead police officers,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: you know, rape victims and just horrific crimes, crimes that
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: were going on. But when I said losing faith, and
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: I did, of course, I did. And I made that
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: point clear that I didn't reject Christ. I just lost
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: faith that, yeah, I don't think religion's got it correct.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: It's that's for somebody else. That's for other people. but
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: it's not for me right now. And I shelved it.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: And that's what I did. I just put it on
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: a shelf and said, when I'm, when I'm done, I'll
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: come back and grab it. So it was my way
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: of carpent.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Carpentalizing.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Thank you. That was the word just so that
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I could handle this stuff. Yeah.
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, and so as you're, you know, 36 years,
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: long time, And so you're seeing yourself change. People are
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: making people are noticing, you know, the change, the hardness
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: that you need to just simply to do the job.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: How did you handle that coming home? I mean, did
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: that transfer over? Were you able to turn it off?
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: Were you able to show compassion to the family, to
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: the wife, to others? Or did you find that difficult?
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's extremely difficult. I couldn't discuss this with anybody.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: You know, I as my sister recalls, it's funny, your friends.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: And your family members all point to certain incidents that
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: take place. And they go, yeah, we knew you were
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: having a problem. I'm like, oh, I didn't realize I
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: was having a problem. And she said, oh, yeah, they
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: were having a birthday party for my, you know, and
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: at my house, my wife was there and everything. And
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: I stepped outside and I was having a cigarette. My
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: sister goes, you know, what's going on? And I said, well,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: this just took place. It was a guy who had
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: killed his family, a different family, but two of his kids.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: And I go, you know, I spent hours on that.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, some of these, you know, scenes, you spend
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: hours and you spend hours looking at the victims. And
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: then you can't come home. And I couldn't come home
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: and tell my wife, hey, this just took place. I
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: could go and just like any other police officer who's
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: going to be watching this could go into one horrific
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: event after another, after another, after another. It stays with you.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I was in Hawaii and I sat down at a
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: table with a friend of mine who was a police
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: officer and he's recalling incidents 30 years earlier. I mean,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: we have this for the rest of our lives. All
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: this memory, you know, When I drove around Fresno, I
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: used to drive around and go, oh, yeah, there was
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: a homicider there. Oh, yeah, we shot that guy over there.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: And just pointing to intersections and housing areas and stuff.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: And my wife's like, how do you drive around a
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: town now? And I go, that's why we're always on alert.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: We know what happens.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: So, no.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: It was very difficult.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: And now.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: They have psychologists that you can talk to. Fresno PD
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: actually had a chaplain. So you could go down there
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: and talk to a chaplain. That's huge. I mean, and
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: that was very controversial. We actually had a chaplain's office
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: at the police department, and that was groundbreaking. So police
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: officers should go down there and actually... sit and talk
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: to the chaplain. Except one of our chaplains who later
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: became a police officer was still preaching, but he was
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: also a police officer, killed his lover's husband, tried to
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: blame it on another police officer, and he went off
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: to prison for 22 years for murder. So it changed
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: him too.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, changed him too.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: That seems to be the challenge is being changed too much, right?
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: And so again, you know, just the Compton Don't Surf,
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: Mike Doyle, get it on Amazon so people can check
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: it out. Again, you'll find it extremely fascinating and engaging.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: And you have a lot of humor in there, which
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: is very, very good as well. And let's go back
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: for a moment. So here you are living... You know,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: you're working. Was there any time at all that maybe
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: you had somebody who you arrested or whatever, and you
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: came in with a certain hardness? but yet that gave you,
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: did you have anybody that you felt like, okay, this
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: person is truly sorry. And then you felt, okay, there
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: is a hope for redemption for this person. Or did
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: you just close it off?
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: No, for the most part, close it off. But there
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: were several times, there were several times that I would
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: arrest somebody and then I would help out his family.
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: And so race funds and police officers are very giving.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I know that doesn't sound right, but police officers are
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: amazing as far as giving up their own funds. I've
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: seen multiple times where police officers just give cash out
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: of their own pockets to help families. Look, this kid
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: didn't have a bed. Oh, look, this kid doesn't have
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: a Christmas present. Or, hey, his dad just went to
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: prison or his family just went in the hospital. And
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: we would supply the family with Christmas gifts. We do
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: have that type of compassion. And there was one incident
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: where I did arrest somebody. And I did give him
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: a break and I did get enough donations to house
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: to buy beds because their family didn't have beds. So
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: all the police officers chipped in and we got them
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: actual beds. And then we went to a store that
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: we knew the owner and he gave us a good
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: deal on the beds. So there is a great deal
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: of compassion, but it is few and far between. especially
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: against the suspects. Yeah.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: And this is why it's important because again, as you mentioned,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: there's some that are obviously very dedicated to supporting law enforcement,
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: which as you just described, you know, in the whole
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: rage of the anti-police movement or defund the police here,
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: you're telling stories about how the police are getting together
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: to help And a lot of that is left out.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Where there is a reality of this balance.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: Again, to me, it's only supernatural that you could have
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: the ability to balance this out when you're dealing with
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: stuff like this.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: It really is a calling.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: You know, in this, here you are now, of course,
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: you're writing about it. You're thinking it back over 36 years.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: How is your understanding of forgiveness, how was it shaped
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: from all the way before through the 36 years and
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: then even now?
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, how long have you been retired?
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: I've been retired for 10 years now.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Well, it's funny you talk about forgiveness because, and you
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: were a great person to talk with because we could just,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: you could really relate. Yeah, I am so thankful. I
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: really am. I pray every night and I just ask
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: for forgiveness. You've talked to me at length about forgiveness
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: because I go to those verses where it says, love
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: your enemies. And I've told you straight up, yeah, I
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: can't do that. I'm not wired that way.
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: And I.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: I'm more of like the crusader who know we're going
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: to go to war and we're going to go fight.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of wired that way. But I think daily
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: devotionals have really helped. And it's really helped clamp down
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: a lot of the anger. Not only anger with the suspect,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: anger at the communities that back the suspects. You know,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: it's not backing the police officers. It's just a lot
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: of anger. And I think a lot of police officers
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: have that anger. And if I don't read daily devotionals
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: to try and clamp that down and, you know, tamp
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: it down, I'm sorry, tamp it down, then it just
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: starts going spiral. You know, you just start going down
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: this hill. And that was the other thing I pointed
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: out in the book is the amount of police suicides,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: the amount of police suicides is just astronomical. I mean,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: not only are police officers shot and killed at an
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: alarming rate in this country, but people forget that the
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: suicides are just as equally horrible. And we were dealing
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: with that too. I mean, come to work and Oh,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: so-and-so killed himself.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: What?
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: You know, how do you, now how do you do it, right?
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: How do you deal with that? So I would say
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: ultimately devotionals and having a church family. But even when
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: I go to church, other than the Tahoe Community Church,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: because we like shooting, But a lot of the other churches,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: they have no understanding on what really goes on.
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's, you know, of course our church
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: up there, pretty small, but yet you would think that,
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: and I don't know, maybe some do, some don't, but
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: the idea of any large church would have a specific
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: ministry that would be dedicated to law enforcement, you know,
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: or military or whatever. Just because that's a whole different world.
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, I've never been in the military, never done
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: any of that. And so my only experience has been,
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: you know, through pastoring and different things and getting exposed.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Of course, your book is very helpful.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: You know, even some of the stories that you and
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: I talked about, reading the book was like, oh man,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: we never talked about this.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: And it just opened up. It opened up. I wish
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: I would have had the book, honestly, before.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: And then been able to chat because to say, okay,
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: now I'm just getting, um, a very bigger glimpse into
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: truly what you're coming to the table with and trying
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: to puzzle through. Of course, you know, as anything education,
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: I would love to be more educated about the whole story,
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: about the whole situation, about what.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: It was like.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: Um, and certainly that probably would have helped me again,
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: chat with you in a better way, more intelligent way,
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: I would say. And, um, You know, for those, you know,
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: you dedicated the book to Kevin Burrell and James McDonald.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: And so talk about that dedication and then, again, to
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: their memory and how that shaped you.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Kevin, which was the black officer that was killed, and
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: James was the white officer, they were partners. Kevin was
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: just an amazing person. an amazing kid, grew up around
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: the police department, just had a positive outlook on everything.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Quite different than mine, my attitude, and James McDonald did also.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: I didn't know him as well, but I knew Kevin better.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: That again is, I went down for the funeral, and
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: of course, met with all my friends. And it shapes
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: you in that, for me, in a negative way. It reconfirmed,
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: don't be compassionate with anyone. It means this is for real.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: You could die out on the street. And I remember
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: having conversations with my partners going, whatever happens, you never
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: let me lay on that pavement. I don't care how
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: dead I am. You scoop me up, throw me in
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: the backseat of a police car, and take me to
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: the hospital. Somehow, someway, pronounce me at the hospital, but
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: do not leave me on a pavement. And we would
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: have pacts between friends saying, I got you. I got you.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: And if I die, this is my wife and my kids.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: and things like that. So it changes you. And to me,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: it changed me in a negative light in that it
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: was horrific, but in a positive light to reaffirm my
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: faith and make sure that I was still in the
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Lord's fold and that I had recommitted my life to
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Christ and and that I had asked for forgiveness and repented.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: So I think in a positive way, that's how it
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: affected me. In a negative way, it was like, okay,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: you know, this is for real. These are my friends
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: dying out there.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: It's sobering. And, you know, the Bible says a lot about.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: Respecting elders, respecting those that have gone before us, and
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: those that, again, that are still alive.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: In fact, in the Old Testament, you know, if a.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: Gray-haired man walks, comes into the room, everybody's supposed to
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: stand up. You know, it's very, very serious about respecting
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: those that are older and wiser than us. And so
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: with that theme, here you are, you know.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: 52, something like that. You're, you know, 52 years old.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I'm almost 70.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: You're almost 70. Okay. You're almost 70, but you're a
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: great tennis player. I know that. So, so what do
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: you say then? You know, there's people that are coming up.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: What do you say to the young, the 23 year
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: old Mike, you know, or those that are considering, Hey,
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: I want to be a police officer.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: My dad was the law enforcement or whatever. I want
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: to go in.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: I want to, I'm going to protect people. What do
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: you say with all of your, your wisdom and your,
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: your experience? What do you say to that person? You know,
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: just in the sense of the job, but secondly, from
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: a spiritual perspective, how that they don't, how do they
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: can protect their own soul in the process?
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Well, first they have to use their resources. If they're
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: going to go in there and know that you're going
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: to change. Know that change is inevitable. It will happen.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: You will not be the same person going into the
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: police academy because the police academy is book, book learning.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: You do some fun scenarios. You get to shoot. And
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: it's nothing like what happens the minute you hit the streets.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: It's college. And suddenly you get in you know, into
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: a patrol car with a training officer who's normally very
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: bitter and been around for a long time and has
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: seen a lot of rookies come and go. Like when
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: I was a training officer, a lot of the officers
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: go in there with such an idyllic view of like
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: how they're going to help people. And so did I.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: And so did everybody that I went to the academy with.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: And then you go into police and you realize, this
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: isn't for me. This is a life I really don't want.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: And the honest ones, well, like my friend's son, he goes,
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: you should join the police department. He goes, I don't
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: want the life you had. I don't want to see
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: what you saw. I don't want to have the life.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: What I would tell them is use the resources, the
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: resources like the chaplaincy that they have at police departments.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Now they're, um, the psychologists that are there right now
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: that are available to them. Like I tell my own son,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: who is a police officer, which I tried to discourage
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: as much as I could, but it wasn't until he
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: started working shifts and seeing some horrendous stuff that he goes, oh,
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: now I know what.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Actually, he would say, now I know why you're cranky
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: all the time.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: And now I know why you were never around. You're
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: always on call outs. You're always on stuff. And know
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: that it's going to affect the family. Just be aware
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: and then have people that you can talk with. I
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: honestly don't think it's healthy to talk to your wife
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: about some of the horrific scenes that you've seen. That's
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: a little too much for someone to absorb. But There
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: are resources available now. There's resources available now that weren't
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: available back then.
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: You know, talk about that, too, because you brought up,
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: you know, going and seeing the psychologist. And I should
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: have mentioned this earlier, but, you know, in your own journey,
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: you went in to get a master's of psychology.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, you pursued that.
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: And what led you there and how did that help
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: you in your, again, just in processing everything?
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Well, I realized that I was in a medical unit
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: and my commander was a psychologist and so I talked
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: with him and keep talking with him and then I
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: thought you know he goes you really ought to become
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: one you really ought to study psychology so that you
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: can help other police officers and so I went to
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: Pepperdine and I was getting my master's degree in psychology
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: and I wrote about this in the book and they
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: one day they asked okay relate a story That really
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: changed you. And I told a story and it shocked
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: the class. I mean, these are people who are becoming psychologists.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: They're in their master's degree and the psychologist. And the
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: psychologist said, that is the most horrific story I think
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: I've ever heard. Please don't tell any more. And I
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: go like, well, aren't we studying psychology? And he said, yes,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: but we don't want to hear stories like that anymore.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: And there was a couple of the girls that had
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: to leave the room and one was kind of crying.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: And I said, well, that was like my first week
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: as a police officer. And they were like, no, we're
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: not set up for that. These people can't understand that lifestyle,
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: can't absorb that. And so the people who I thought
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: was going to help ended up saying, It's just too violent.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: It's just too grisly. We don't want to hear about
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: this anymore. So it was difficult.
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I imagine that, as you mentioned, I'm
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: sure the psychologists in the departments or whatever, you know,
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: they're special because they are dealing, you know, specialists maybe
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: even in that regard.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: They are. And so are the chaplains, too. It's absolutely
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: not necessary. I was afraid to go to some of
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: my pastors because if I started talking, they would think,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I have a congregant that is going
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: off the rails. It's not really necessary to be a
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: police chaplain, but Be like yourself. Hey, let's go golf.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: Let's talk. Or, hey, let's play tennis. Hey, let's talk.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, be an activist. I know in our conversations, which, again, you.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: Know, there's theological truth of, you know, forgiveness and restoration
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: and grace and mercy and compassion. And those are all
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: real theological things that obviously God commands us to do.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: And those are the ideal.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: And what was interesting, again, in my own conversations with
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: you is, you know, you have these hard and fast
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: black and white truths. And then you sharing some of
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: the stories and going, and for me as a pastor going,
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: how do I get in his world? and understand the
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: dynamics rather than just saying, well, you know, it doesn't
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: matter what the story is. You need to forgive. I mean,
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: to me, that's just, I don't know, unloving, unkind, whatever.
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: It's just, it's uncompassionate from a pastoral perspective. But to say,
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: you know, and I always felt like the Lord say,
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: you know, get into Mike's world and understand, yes, the
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: truths are there, but understand, try to understand where he's
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: coming from and how he's wrestling and putting those into practice.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: It's way different than me. And I felt that, you know,
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: even in the book, you described this process and journey. And,
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: you know, kind of in closing us out here, you know,
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: you wrote this book. The book, maybe wrap it up
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: for the audience in what do you want them to
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: walk away with from the book?
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: The biggest thing is an understanding of what police officers
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: see every day and what they go through and that
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: even seeing horrific crimes like that one guy who killed
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: seven of his children and two of his own daughters,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: so seven grandchildren. That was a horrific mass murder. I
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: was there 15 hours a day for three days. So
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: you're there seeing that for 15 hours. Going to scenes
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: where several police officers had been gunned down and had
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: been killed. Again, I was there for 15 hours, 16
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: hours a day, helping run the operation. Horrific plane crashes
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: where victims are everywhere. I remember one in Fresno where
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: I was actually walking around And I saw a plane crash,
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: and I was the only one there. And I was
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: actually at 2.30 in the morning running around the plane
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: crash trying to find the victims. amongst the burning plane.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: And I'm trying to find the victims. And then you
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: have to deal with the aftermath. You have to deal
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: with the families.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: My biggest.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: What I want to get... What I want people to
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: get from this is an understanding that these officers, and
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: there's a reason why there's such a huge shortage of
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: officers right now. No one's signing up anymore. It's just
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: people are saying, I don't want to live that life.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: I don't want to do that. But to help the
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: police officers and, you know, pray for them. And know
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: that they're going through horrific events every night.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, amen to that.
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: And I think that's what I see is, you know,
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: the largest, I mean, the greatest majority of law enforcement
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: is there for the right reason. And yeah, there's always
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: a couple of bad apples in everything, but don't allow
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: those bad apples to basically categorize all the rest of
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: them because all these people who are out there risking
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: their own lives, you're seeing your friends, your partners perish
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: in the job.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: All the wicked and evilness.
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: And the goal is, you mentioned this in the book,
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: is to protect people from wolves, from predators. And that
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: really is the goal. And so Mike, I really appreciate
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: your time. So glad you wrote the book. And for
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: those listening, go to Amazon, go to amazon.com. You can
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: see again, Michael Doyle, Compton don't surf like the city
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: of Compton doesn't surf like Mike did in his life.
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: And so check out the book again, great Christmas present
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: for others. I think This could be an encouragement to, again,
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: all law enforcement families or anybody that needs to understand.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: But I imagine even your fellow police officers would love
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: to just have to see their story because they're going
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: to identify with their story being shared in so many ways.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: So thank you, everybody, for listening today for this program. Again,
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: it's been it's been good and we will catch you
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: next time.