Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 289: We Did Start the Fire

Transcript

Ep. 289: We Did Start the Fire · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is Me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven versatile
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer, Yanny, I
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: don't know if you noticed, but I have a um
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: giant bear rug over my last I brought this, so
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: this is the bear I got this spring. Yanni has
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: often criticized bear rugs for what reason and just general
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: bear amounts, bearmounts, and bear rugs. Yeah, because their mouths
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: are open and snarling and growling and making them look
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: vicious and mean. And I feel like when we see
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: bears and most likely bears of their lives, they're not
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: in those uh their faces, they're not in that position.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Their faces look more like this guy. Yeah, this guy,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: this looks like a bear. Yeah, not growling. Um. So
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Clay Nucom hosted the Bear Grease podcast, introduced me to
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: his tax the Nervous Buddy, Uh John Hayes Hayes tax
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: nermy studio which is a Libby Montana, and Clay brought
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: like Clay delivered my bear over to him and we
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: had a We were driving down the road with the
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: bear still in the back, just a green hide, and
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: I was saying to him, why are your bears always uh?
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Why are there miles always growling? Um? And he was
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: saying something paraphrase a little bit. But the gist I
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: got from his people do like that. It Also, it's
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: easy to do it, easier than the clothes mouth somehow.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: It's easier to make them look normal, And there's a
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: lot of forms that. There's a lot of forms to
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: do that, but there aren't forms readily available for rugs
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: to do it otherwise. So he he started to develop
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: how to do a close mouth bear by using a
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: form meant for a different application. So he was already
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: doing close mouth bears. There was enough demand for it
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: that he was working on it before you brought. No,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: he doesn't. He says, like, I do them, but I
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: don't buy. He don't buy. I feel like, if I'm
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: screwing this up, John, you can cut Well, we're gonna
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: have you call in. No, I just come into the
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: studio and you can explain it better. If I'm screwing
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: this up. They don't sell like what you need to
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: do this. He buys a form for a different purpose
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: and kind of manipulates it and changes it in order
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: to be able to do this on a rug. So
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: this bear, you can see his chin, mouth everything. He's
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: not growling. And I have three other I gave one
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: away too in my house right now where they're all growling.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: And you're right, I've looked at a pile of bears,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: most of them never seen one like that, or they're
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: eating some grass I like that. But when I get mine,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna have his head even sinking more into the ruck,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: a little lower profile. So I'm gonna have him cut
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: it like maybe like right at the top lip and
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: go straight back and even have it, uh just like
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: sink into the rug a little bit more. You follow me,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: I'm following, Yeah, And I was gonna. I thought when
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: you were first showing it how it was kind of uh,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: it's got a little gift to it, like there's not
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: quite a pillow in there. But I believe Clay did
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: a video with John Hayes, John Hayes name, Uh where
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: John makes like what he calls like a soft taxidermy kyo.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Did you see a little video about the coyote. Yeah,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: and that thing looked cool because then it's like it
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: becomes more practical because it's like, oh, there's a coyote
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: on the couch. Oh, but you can also lay your
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: head on him and take a little nap, and it
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: be kind of cool to have that all through that
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: bear hide. Oh yeah, I would like that. Uh seth
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: if you had to rate how close did that come
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: to get in a wolf? If you okay, no, here,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: here's the thing. Ten as you got it, one as
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: you never saw it. Oh man. So well, there's a
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: couple of factors that go into it. One would be
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: you're shooting at long distance. Okay, let's say extremely good. Okay,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: I would say let's say moderate. I would say, uh,
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: you came, you came really close. I would put you
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: at a like an eight three. Oh really, yeah, because
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: if you were when that wolf was standing up there
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: still for all that time time, and you weren't set up,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: just imagine if you were set up at that point
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: in time, you could have gotten a shot. So we
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: were sheep hunting in Alaska. Um, I was cheaping up
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: my brother Danny, who's a residence. So we're able to hunt,
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: Like in Alaska, there's this thing like second degree kindred
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: um that that you can hunt without a guide for
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: a species that normally require a guide if you have
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: a close relative that lives there and you're hunting with
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: that person. Um grizzlies, mountain goats, and sheep um. So
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: if they're white or tend towards whiteish, you have to
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: have a guide or second degree kindred. So I can
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: hunt with my brother. And we were hunting and we
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: went up to that we were going up to this
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: basin um that like you're going up this pass, you
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: wouldn't really guess it's up there. Canyon gets real narrowed
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: as a big glacier in it, But all of a sudden,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: it's like it's giant basin and we slip up in there,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: and it had snowed the night before. This is just
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: what I a week ago, two weeks ago, snow the
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: night before, and we get there, your sheep tracks running
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: everywhere in that new snow, and I'm like, god, we
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: blew them out, Like how that happened? Like you must
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: have spooked him? And then wet looking at all the tracks. Really,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: there's wolf tracks running all over zigzagging around, and then
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: we find where all the sheep went and hid rams used.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: Everybody's sitting on a rock pile in a way that
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: they normally wouldn't like arrange themselves. And it's because like
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: they clearly like I got into a big line and
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: went up on top of a cliff and were sat
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: up there, and I don't know how long we wandered,
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: around an hour. And also there's the wolves up on
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: the other ridge. I started wailing on a predator call.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: And I can't really say this for certain or not,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: but they like gave a look or didn't just happen
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: to look but didn't really care. No, they didn't care
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: at all. I feel like they gave a look. Oh,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: they gave a look. Yeah they were. There was a
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: gray one and a black one and they were like
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: up on this ridge and then they'd like disappear from
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: the ridge and then all of a sudden, you'd like
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: see a head pop up and look, did they know
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: you guys were there? I don't think they didn't know either.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: There yards away. I don't think they knew they were Oh.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: It was also weird as these are sheep, I don't
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying the only hunt sheep. They were hunting sheep. Absolutely,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: their whole groove was they were hunting sheep. But the
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: weird thing is, all of a sudden, he kicked up
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: a u one you that ran from the They kicked
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: her out of the craggy stuff and she ran down
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: into an open bowl and they didn't chase her. M
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: I'm like, that seems like the the whole plan. That's
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: that's what you want to where they can get her
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: what they keep on doing? What we couldn't tell because
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: they dropped out of you. I would have thought we
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: were like get ready. Yeah, I was thinking that they're
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: just gonna come chase her, and they're gonna come, you know,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: close to us. It didn't they didn't like something. But
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: I got all lined up. Um, in the unit we're in,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: you don't even need there's no locket for non resident
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: only need a locking tag. I was gonna have. I
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: was gonna make breakfast sausage film, an episode of pardoned
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: my plate and have that big old wolf hide all
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: in one. That have been your first one, right, that
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: black that black one is pretty. I was literally I
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: told my brother, my brother has zero interesting, like he
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: lives in Alaska like zero interested grizzlies. He likes him,
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: but hunting him like not. It just doesn't even register
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: with them. Zero interesting wolves wolf hunting. I said, dude,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: you can think of me like Cruella de Ville. Man,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: I want that wolf hide so bad. He does not
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: get it, like, doesn't get it. Could you tell by
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: the tracks, like how they were hunting them or no?
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Like do you think those they stumbled upon those sheep
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: or do you think they were following them for a
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: while or can you not? Here's my theory based on
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: absolutely nothing. Ahead Um, I understand from conversations with the
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: bush Pilot that there are always a bunch of us
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: in that basin always. I think that they have a
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: little sort of checklist, a little mental map, and they
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: come in there and whatever periodically and run around Raise Hill.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: But this is just based on nothing. Yeah, well it
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: sounds solid, Lamb Now, I'm sure, I'm sure. Yeah. Those
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: wolves are definitely like ridge runners, like they're up there
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: looking for sheep. And I felt that when they didn't
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: chase the one, Danny postulated that they must have killed
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: the lamb. Oh, and we went up there and looked,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: and you would have definitely known it was there because
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: the snow and we couldn't find what was going on.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: But then weirdly we find not near not there a
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: ways away, found a dead lamb him a little ram lamb.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Is that a thing? Yea, a ram lamb hadn't been touched.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: We're going down his cut and I'm like, that's a
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: weird place for a snow patch still be lingering because
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: there's no snow around to its death. Listen, man, I
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: gave it like an amateur knee crops. I gave it
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: an amateur knee cropsy and determined that there were no um,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: no visible injuries. But I feel that it's rear left
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: leg rear right leg was busted at the femur based
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: on a very amateur that being my first ever doll
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: sheep lamb knee cropsy, I feel that that's that that
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: leg pretty wonky and comfortable, hadn't even had its eyes
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: pecked yet. Oh wow, so fresh in fact that we
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: kicked a you. We're going down out of there and
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: we're like kind of like out of sheep country and
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: here comes to you and we're like, what the hell
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: is she doing? Like why, like won you in that
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: weird place and we didn't see her with it, but
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: she left that spot within a like not a lot
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: of precision because you just couldn't see down that area
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: at that time. But anyways, one came out. It was
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: weird enough that we commented on it and then got
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: down in that zone and there was that dead lamb.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: So maybe you guys spooked it and spoke no because
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: its hair was starting to slip fresh enough that you
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: guys considered considered well no, because I didn't want to
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: get you can't do that kind of stuff. I don't
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: think you can do that, Yeah, with a sheep. I'm
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: sure they'd probably frown on that. Yeah, I don't think
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: you can be like, oh, I like I got a
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: bunch of sheep meat because I found I think that
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: they would say, like, that's not your I don't know
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: how you'd take possession of that thing. I noticed when
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: if you're done, when you're done doing your like little
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: examination there, my clothes were colded in hair. Yeah, I
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: saw your pants cheap hair all over him. I was like,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: that's gonna be a tough one to explain if I
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: actually I actually we were waiting to get picked up
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: I actually went through and tried to remove it all
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: because it'd be like a trooper like, but so why
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: are you coding and cheap hair again? I'm like, listen, hey,
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: quick survey here in the in the room. If you
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: guys ever get a bear rug or bare amount done,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: you're gonna go close mouth or open mouth, and Steve,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: I'm going closed. I like that one. I don't. I don't.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: I don't I know about your idea about like like that,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: like seeing the mouth. I know a guy has multiple
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: open mouse and like all the all the teeth are missing,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: the tongue is broken out just because they're boxing like
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: it's on the ground. They just boxally kick them with
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: their choe or whatever breaks teeth out. My kids jumping
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: around on those, I'm always afraid they're gonna bust the
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: ears off. That's why I hang them up on the
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: wall because they're like riding on it using the ears
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: as handles and stuff. It's like they can't put up
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: with that kind of stuff. I was gonna say, Steve,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: have you ever seen the mounts that are They're they're
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: pretty much a rug and they're the rug shell, but
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: there's no felt and they're meant to hang on the
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: wall like some people call a trapper's mount. Is one
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: of those with a white tailed buck? Oh that's sick.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, that's what I would do. I like
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: those barbars. I don't. I would not do the felt
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: not a felt person. Okay, all right? Joined today by
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: Rick Hutton. Yeah, freshly married? Yeah like that? Yeah, yeah,
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: that's awesome. I like the married life. What what is that?
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: How if you had to rate his best man speech? Yeah,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: one to ten. I think he did it. I'll give
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: him a solid nine. Yeah, he sure gave himself and nine. Yeah.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: I asked him, I said you did anybody laughs a
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: few times? Yeah. I even told him like because I didn't.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: We went into the wedding. I was like, Steve or
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: I was like, Seth, I didn't even talk to you
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: really bad. I was like, but do you want to
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: do the best man's speech? You don't have to if
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: you don't want. He's like all the day of the wedding.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: I think it was like two days, but two days.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Just have that he's getting up there, because that would
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: be that would dishearten him. Yeah, no, no, you want
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: to give best man speech. I even said like, I
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: didn't even I just assumed I never talked to you
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: about it though, But do you want to do this?
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: And he's like, oh yeah, I got something planned everything.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, yeah, man, he did good. He made
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: everyone laugh, was good, so I was happy with it. Yeah,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: how are things over? F h F gear good? Really busy,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: extremely busy. We got a lot of cool stuff in prototype,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of growth happening. But it's August. It's so whatever,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: busiest months of the year. What's the most exciting thing
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: you guys got coming up? Whatever? Now? Future think of
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: what I can talk about. They don't want to say anything. Yeah, listen, man,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: that's that's an offline conversation. But I gotta adjust your
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: thinking on that. Okay, alright, it's fine. If you gave
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: me five minutes, I could. I feel like I would
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: In three minutes, I feel like I would make you
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: reconsider everything you think about that. So it's not so
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: much my thinking too. It's top down stuff being told
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: than two just making sure that thinking. Okay, well, let's
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: let's let's chat about that. Yeah, let's chat about that. Um,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: we have some cool stuff coming out for fall more
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: along another accessory for our chest rig will have that
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: more diversify the use of that. It's more in that
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: foul kind of hunting realm uh. And then some backpack
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: accessory that you can use. So we have that come
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: out fall here probably a couple of weeks after this
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: podcast gets out there, and then twenty January of twenty
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: two will be a big year or a big time
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: for us. Will be launching a bunch of new products,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: uh for the more for the rifle hunter. So yeah,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: it'll be real exciting. We're finalizing a lot of that now,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: so excellent. Joined also by Brody. Hello, who's got a
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: tell everybody how many legs your bear has? Brodie three
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: and a half. No, but I'm gonna send it off
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: to that guy. Um. Yeah, I shot a bear last
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: fall that I still haven't sent the hide anywhere in Colorado.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: It is a big, big bore, big head, lots of
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: fat um. But he had he was missing the lower half.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: I gotta think about this lower half of his left
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: front leg and it basically at what would be the
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: elbow on a person, and it was just all healed
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: over recorded and fat. Yeah, Like I think I got
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: four gallons that rendered fat off him. Oh yeah, yeah,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: I mean you had some of it. Um, He's like,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: I actually like it better without this foot. Yeah, and
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: like totally healed over. It looked like it had been
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: surgically removed. You know, there was just fur growing on
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: its skin there um for growing on it. Yeah. And
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: when I took it into to get it checked in,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: obviously it's all speculation, like the one the lady who
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: checked it in said maybe it was an illegal snare
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: when you know it was a cub or maybe a
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: boar had ripped its leg off or a hunter had
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: shot it years ago, who knows, But it didn't affect him.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: You know, he's an older bear. They figured ten to
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: twelve years old. That dude, John Hayes, the tax names
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: I was talking to you, I was bragging up. I
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: was showing him a picture of a bear I had
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: that was seventeen that I got age at seventeen. He
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: had a bear come through there that had been aged
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: in its thirties. Yeah. I can't remember exactly what I remember.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I think the oldest documented is something like thirty nine.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Maybe I don't don't know if that's right, but I
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: think that might be right. Yeah, they can get a
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: lot older than than ten. Uh. Joined also by Seth
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Morris Folks fresh off of Best Man speech, Phil Taylor
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: recently engaged. Yeah, we covered that, We covered down the
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: whole episode, but still there's context here for that. Yeah,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: it's good. It's still engaged, still engaged, still feeling it. Yeah,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: we're making plans, sweet man. And then uh, Janice, who
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: a couple of big milestones, drew his first big horn
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: tag and ran his first something. That's right, what a
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: lucky guy? Tell us now what you're ringing? The Bridge
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: or Ridge Run, which is like maybe the kind of
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: the most popular, um best known Bozeman local race. Did
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: you place in a way that you were satisfied with yourself?
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: I wasn't really good going for I didn't have a
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: goal around placement. I shouldn't say place. Did you perform
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: in a way that satisfied yourself very very much? So
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: you gotta describe layout, the specs of the It's roughly
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: twenty miles, depends. There's some different routes you can change
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: take it at certain points. It's kind of choose your
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: own adventure a little bit. But you can be between
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: nineteen and twenty miles. I think I probably ran. It
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: ran like a nineteen in a quarter mile version. Um.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: And it starts at Fairy Lake the trailhead, and uh,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: you climb up to the pass above Fairy Lakes. I
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: don't know the name of the passes, but then you
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: go up to Sackage away a peak and then basically
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: from there you just run on the actual spine of
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: the Bridger Mountains, uh, through Ross Pass, around Ross Peak,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: and then all the way past Bridge or ski Resort,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Saddle Mountain, Bald Mountain, and then down to the m
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: trail head. Um, and uh, you gain about seventy feet
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: and I believe you lose about feet in those really
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: nineteen miles. Hold you climb that's with ups and down?
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah not at one time, No, no, I
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: got you, but like total gain? Yeah, how long it
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: took me five hours, seventeen minutes. I feel the same way.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: What I'm worried about now is now I feel like,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: now you just didn't smoke me when we're out hiking around.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I did a backpack trip right
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: on the heels of that, and I remember thinking myself, it, Uh,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: you know, just because you're in running shape doesn't mean
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: you're in backpackage. I know. That's the things that I
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: always rely on is like, um, there's not it's its
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: own thing. Yeah, it's its own thing. A lot of
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: times people think that they're good at something else. They
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: didn't gonna tear it up. You always do this thing
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: where your first time of the year as a sheet
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: hunt too, like he come out of gateheart. Yeah, Seth
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: is all bragging up all he took it. He took
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: it a run in a mile and a half every
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: morning with his wife, girlfriend, whatever hell in between. Yeah,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: it helped a lot. I think I felt great during it. Sheep.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah it helps. Yeah. And so okay, so you're
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: you're pleased with your performance. I don't want to like people.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: I was hoping for a like around like a five
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: and a half hour finished time. You know I did
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: it whatever thirteen minutes faster. And how educated was your hope? Well,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: because I had done it on my own couple of
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: years prior, and I did it. I did it in
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: like six twenty but it was very casual. I was
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: I had to carry all my own water. I so
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I carried like ten pounds of water when I did
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: it on my own. So I carried a gallon and
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: a half of water, um and now we had eight stations.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: The whole event was really cool. Like, I highly recommend
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: anybody it's in. Like looking, I don't want you to
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: take away my spot next year because they about five
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: people five or six hundred people apply and they let
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: in three hundred. So it's a lottery to get in
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: because you can like the race can only support it's
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: a lottery draw. Yeah. Well, like if you've done it
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: ten years or more, I think if you're a top place,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: top three place finisher in your age group, there's a
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: couple of things that will get you in every year. Umbuddy,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: every buddy Rick Smith is running more than ten times,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: so he's just automatically in at during that five hours.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: How often could you huck a rock and hit another
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: person if you ban I probably only ran out of
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: five hours. I probably only ran really by myself for
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: maybe an hour out in ninety minutes, not much. There's
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: usually someone around, somebody around. Yeah, I think we went
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: through four or five eight stations, which was great. Like
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of people cheering, helping you on. They really
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: take care of you because there's a lot of exposure,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: right when you get up there, the sun's out there,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: the smoke um can be a factor and um. So
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: they really they check your BIB number twice at every
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: aid station, Like on the way in, there's two different
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: groups going okay, number two oh five just came in,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: somebody else marks it, and then ten steps later that
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: you didn't peel off the ridge and have a heat somewhere. Yeah, exactly, yeah.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: And then I actually got held up for five minutes,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: so right there, I'm down to actually like five twelve.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: But at the final eight station, the main like med
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: nurse doctor was like, hey, how you feeling. I'm like,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling great, and she's kind of patting me down.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: She's like, you're not sweating. I'm like, yeah, I'm had
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: a big sweater. I'm telling you, I've been like pounding
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: the water. I've drink at least six liters of water
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: since I started. I feel great. And she's like, nope,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: come back here, and she turned me around and I
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: went she had She took me to like this ice
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: station and they basically crammed my vest in my shirt
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: full of ice and she said take these two other
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: pieces holding in your hands and you know, keep going,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: but she would you have done if you just ran
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: off in order to keep your time. Oh it's funny
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: because like they're like, look, you're not getting top three,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: so just like take care of yourself. That's kind of
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: the whole attitude of the whole thing is like nobody
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: cares how fast you run. Let's all make sure we
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: can do it, have a good time. If you run
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: across somebody that's struggling, ask me if they need help,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: offer him some food, whatever. And I saw a lot
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: of that because I came out very conservative. I didn't
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: even make a running stride for probably the first five
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: or six miles. And even then when I would like
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: catch up to a group and we'd be on something flat,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: everybody else would go into like a jogging kind of
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: a pace or look, and I just kind of do
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: like a fast walk and stretch my legs and kind
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: of keep up with that same pace. Uh. But like
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: two three hours into it, I started to overcome people
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: that went in earlier waves and they'd have like almost
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: like a zombie like look, you know a little bit
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: like whether I getting myself into the bridge or ridge
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: walk doesn't sound nearly as cool. No, no, no, listen.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: I watch a lot of it. You know, I'm not
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: running up that super steep stuff. The fastest I think
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: this year was around like three and a half three
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: forty five. The course record is three hours. It stood
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: for quite some time, I think, uh, and then I
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: think I got eighth in in the mail nine age group.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: I got sixty out of two fifty people, and the
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: last person to finish was close to ten hours this year.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Dart Or. Yeah, but I saw Kurt Smith like, it's
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: funny because you just don't know who's involved in it
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: in this community. At the very first I think it
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: was on top of Yeah, Kurt Smith from Shapna is
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: up there with like two gallons of water, just cheering
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: everybody on and filling everybody's water bottles up, and yeah,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: that's cool. Hey, I want to see how good you are, younnie.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Um you could you know how you mentioned smoke? Okay,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: you could segue off that to two very important things
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: happening in this room right now. I want you to
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: do a segue for each. Okay, speaking of smoke. When
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: I saw Brody post a picture of this lake trout
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: that he smoked, I was like, man, it looked a
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: little dark. This is this gonna turn into a comment sandwich? Um, well,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: I haven't tried it. It's sitting right here in front
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: of us. I can smell it. It smells good. And
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: so I was gonna ask if maybe the dark color
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: was you know, he did on purpose. He might have
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: put a syrup glazeuph you did, Okay, let me hear
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: you seg what the other thing? It's been very smoky
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: here the last uh, I don't know, six eight weeks.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: It's interesting though, I found this year how it seems
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: like like this morning, right at daylight seven am, it
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: was almost bluebird, and then by like nine like it's
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: it's rolling in. It seems like I've had I've seen
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: a lot of days where super smoky then it clears
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: out vice versa. Anyways, but we have a to educate
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: all of us. As our main guest today we have
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Paul Hessburg, who's gonna tell us all about wildfires. Man,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: he nailed it. That was good. Watch this segue. You
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: know who didn't nail it? Here it comes you overcooked
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: it a little bit. Man, I like it a little here.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: That's good though, man, Oh I thought it was great,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: very good, especially on a cracker, but you chipped a
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: little bit. Just I mean, I'm not gonna know what.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna fie you put it back on for
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: like I'm not gonna infantilize you by building a component sandwich.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna give it to you straight. Yeah. I
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: get I get shipped from be honest about my bear grease.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: I get shipped about my smoke lake shout from you.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't even bring it in for you. Just know
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: I love it. It's extremely good. It just went past
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: its glossy phase. It lost. I lost. I like it
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: a little da Packing it around in a backpack. That
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: moist stuff is just you know, get smashed and ship.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Damn boy, you can have a whole mess on your hands,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: no matter how clean you try to be out there
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: in the woods, and then you just got greasy hands
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: all day. Oh yeah you didn't. You gotta provide a
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: quick little bit of detail. We have a lot we
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: gotta do. But the drew a sheep take. Not really.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: I've been kind of keeping it on the d L
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: because I just figured to go try to a lot
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: of attention. Um, you can probably snoop around and figure
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: out where I drew it. It's in Colorado, So should
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: I not brought it up? Just say a different, say
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: a lie about where it is. But by this point
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: in time when you're hearing this, hopefully I'm gonna have
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: a dead ram on my hands. But you know, there's
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: a high demand on sheep in general, and I've been
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: asked by multiple people if I wouldn't mind just like
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: not mentioning like where the actual you know, unit is,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: just to like not create unneeded attention. Um, But yeah,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: I'm going like I said you, I'll be hunting probably
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: when you're listening to this. But I'm going down in
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: two days to start scouting season open September seven, So
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: I'm hoping that i'll have one tied up to the tree,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: as they say, and be able to put some cross
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: airs on him morning of the seventh. All right, man,
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: uh quick update, So you're good there because you're not
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: looking to really overdo it. What do you mean? I
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: mean you're you're good on talking about it? Oh, I
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: don't mean I can keep talking about it. I've been
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: having a lot of fun. I've got I've been building
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: a gear list. I was gonna mention this. I just
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: decided I was making a gear list for my own purposes.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Very good, Brody, A little dry, it's a big it's
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: almost got like a hint of citrus nous in there
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: is that? Did you put like some kind of It's
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: just it was just a dry Brian brown, sugar and
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: salt and then the little maple syrup at the end.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Smoke lake trout the bag Brody gave me, says grease Ball. Yeah,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: that's a derogatory lake trout term. Yeah, I don't know.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: People just don't know what's going on. Oh my god,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: it's good. I'm telling you. If you went to like
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: a whatever they call him, fish house, smoke house or whatever,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: you would have to pay probably, what do you think,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: at least twenty bucks, if not thirty bucks a pound
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: for something like that. Yeah, that's good, way better than
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: smoked salmon. Anyways. I so I was making a gear list.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't forget anything. This is the one hunt I
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: really want to be extra dialed in on. Ah and uh,
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: look at this, you're gonna be impressed. You probably don't
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: even know what Google sheet is. What's your looking attridge
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: of choice? I'm going six five rpm? Good choice. Yeah.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: So I'm looking at Yi's a little deal here. He's
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: got a miscellaneous category which covers things such as uh,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: dragon polls, his bear as, his bear defense system down
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: through by. It's weird the binos is in miscellaneous, not
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: in optics, well, because the optics sort of package fell
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: in under the zone of in my backpack optics, not
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: the worn or carried optics, and that's why I fell
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: into he's even got pundages. Okay, so he's got a
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: fel on Ammo, so all the things are going to shooting. Yeah,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: in the poundages, and I've got dash worn so what
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: you're bringing, what you're wearing, correct, He's got his food
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: right all the way down to electro light tablets. He's
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: got his gear at truck in case of worsening weather.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: How many days are you prepared to be in there
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: at a time? Oh, I can't think I could easily do.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the limit would probably like. How
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: like when you go in, where do you Well, I'm
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: gonna go scout for just like three or four days,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: so I'll pack food for that, and then when we
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: go back in, um, I'll probably pack for five or
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: six something like that? Is it? Tough to get in there. Yeah,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: depending on where are you park and where we kind
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: of want to start in in what what drainage? Uh
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: like where I saw the sheep when I went into scout,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: I was almost nine miles from the truck. But pretty
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: easy approach, Pretty just like straightforward flat trail system. More
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: sot us filling in now since slow to load. Oh,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: it's way more. Okay, it's just been slow to fill in. Okay, system.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: He's got a pack category, a water category, but how
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: to deal with water, and there is an optics category.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: It's just it's been populating slowly. A shelter in sleep category,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: a cooking category, a medikit category, emergency kit category. Are
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: you going light on the shelter? That miscellaneous ut scouting?
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna run and then uh, when I go
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: in with the photographer for the actual hunt, we're gonna
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: split the Stone Glaciers skyscraper. So that's like a little
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: over four pounds, So will each be it, you know,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: a couple of pounds for Yeah, but I'm happy I
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: got my kid down to roughly. Uh, if I'm going
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: in solo, thirty five pounds no food or water. So
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: if I go in five days. That's ten pounds of food.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: That's up to forty five in the add You know,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: however much water you're gonna carry half a gallon before pounds.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: What's uh, what's a boned out sheep way in the
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: cape and the head man. I was actually just talking
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: to Carrasco about that, and he feels that you can
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: get a whole boned out sheep if you are diligent
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: about trimming um into one of the stone glacier load cells.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: So I'm actually gonna maybe splip my program and just
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: carry one of those and not carrying any game bags.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Maybe one extra in case there's like overflow, you know um,
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: or maybe a place a way to wrap up the
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: cape in the head. But he said about sixty six
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: pounds boned out the head and cape. You know, I
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: didn't ask him that I should have a good use.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Capes are valuable. Very The fund's calendar left up old
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: deer stands calendar. There was granted, it was supposed to
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: be a book. We haven't ruled that out. Listen at
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: that sold out and so that it went from coffee
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: table book to calendar. Because I had to prove the concept.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: I know kind of concept people just like being upset about. Listen,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: you can't tell people you're making a fine art coffee
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: table book and then give him a calendar. But you can.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: But I'm at the general public that got upset. We
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: spent months, general public, we have spent months talking about
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: a fine art coffee table book. Well, Steve, you seem upset,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: but you were proven right that this is a redemption story. Dude. Listen. Yeah,
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: this is like the do you know that when uh,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: It's a Wonderful Life? Of course, yeah, do you know
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: what tanked commercially? It tanked critically. The company that the
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: company that produced that movie went out of business based
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: on the financial loss of It's a Wonderful Life and
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: what happened in the end fill classic. Watch it every year,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: every American family. Every American family watches it every year.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: Years from now, every deer hunter in America. I'll have
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: that book. This is a story like that. We did
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: the calendar and we had a what I uh, Savannah
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: called it a modest print run or some word like modesty.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: I called it a robust print run. I think it
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: was a good number to go with Initially, twenty four
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: hours gone but we reordered a sheph load. More naysayers
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: have been silence. Yes, and everyone who's pissed the first
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: day came out and it sold out. You will get
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: your chance to get one. I feel a robust print run.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Sold out in twenty four hours, out in a few hours,
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: and now we ordered four x. Yeah that print run.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: I think, can you put your name out like, notify
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: me when available as they got prey of something like
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: that going on. I think so new episode of Media
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: to the TV show hitting Netflix September twenty nine, some
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: market calendars, new season, not just one? What I say
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: episode new season? Can we give him any hints as
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: to what Rick and Seth are in it? Rick and Seth?
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: That's true? Uh, we we recomment it. Our buddy else
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: is in it? Who's that? Luke Holmes? Oh, Luke Holmes
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: is in it? The dogs in it? The dogs in it? Minga.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Can you play that quick film? Let's do it? Uh?
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: We talked about we recorded so Seth and you'll you'll
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: meet Rick and in uh Seth again and there is
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: that your first time on the act on the show,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: the Netflix show. Yes, Yeah, I never had a cameo.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Y'all needs to do cameos all time. No cameo, you
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: hast not done anything. I did realize though, that our
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: beaver hunting or beaver trapping episode hit mainstream television because
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: I've been getting a lot of notifications about that. Oh yeah, yeah,
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: outdoor channel. I didn't know what was happening. That's cool. Uh.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: The Chip and the poof was the previous episode episode.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: If you want to revisit the Chip and the Poof,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Uh about our Flintlock hunt. So when you watch the
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: show on September twenty nine, you can skip ahead of
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: the Flintlock one and you'll meet uh, you'll meet Rick
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: and Seth. Yep, I think about that Rick. That was
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: back when you weren't even mare. Yeah, it wasn't married.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: That was before I was engaged. Is that when you
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: taught dirt myth about a hang fire? If you go
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: on Instagram on the one that was so sometime around
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: last Christmas, If you go on Instagram so at Stephen Ronellan,
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: you go watch like the World's Greatest hang fire video,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: dirts like run you scoundrels, trigger, like Forever goes by
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: it all. He was he was like lower away and
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: it was like a fuse burning straight out of Looney Tunes.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: It was crazy. Yeah, it's dangerous. I'm writing an article
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: for the website that the nuts and bolts of it
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: is gonna be the gear list, so you can check
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: it out and see what we're using. And um, I
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: think if that gear list can definitely be applied for
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: an early season dear Archery elk hunt as well. It's
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: good but inspired by this, but used for many other press.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: I look forward on the meat eater dot com. Uh,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: the whole thing about when I screwed up that word
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: mackerel fructation when it was supposed to be mackerel fructification. Well,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: some guys sent in this. He looked up Google search
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: trends for macero fructification and found that it had not
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: been googled in a single time in five years. Then
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: when we talked about it in July two thousand twenty
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: one in the episode Cat Scratch Fever, it got searched
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: a hundred times. People. Well, I think that's a really
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: I think that graph you're looking at is a relative scale,
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: so it's not literally a hundred times, but I mean
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: I think it's showing you, like the relative difference in
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: the so it's probably a lot more than a hundred,
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: but also probably was googled at least once or twice
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: in the last five years. It got um, yeah, quite
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: a spike. But we did a T shirt run, a
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: Mackerel fructification T shirt run, but they're all gone. That
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: was a that was a modest print run. That was
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: that that itself was a modest print collector's items. Now
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: seth breakdown the the I call this a civil rights issue,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: the civil rights issue of Sunday hunting in Pennsylvania. Give
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: us the give us the whole you know, the whole deal. Yeah. So, Um,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: for as long as I know you weren't able to
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: hunt on Sundays in Pennsylvania. We talked about this in
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: the episode, so check it out. But um, last year
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: was the first year they allowed three Sundays of hunting. UM,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: which was the last Sunday of archery season, the first
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Sunday of it was the first first Sunday for the
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: rifle season, and then one of the Sundays during bear season. Um.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: But right now, there's a bill send it, Bill six
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: o seven that was introduced that would pass Sunday hunting
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: authority fully from the legislator of the Pennsylvania Game Commission,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: which currently has the authority to only allow three Sundays.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: So it gives them the right to do it, yes,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: but you don't know if they will do it or
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: is that the assumption that's I mean the assumption. I
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: think the Game Commission is on board. And there's like
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: there's like lots of studies that show how this will
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: help economically. It gives more opportunity to like, you know,
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: people that are out of staters that want to come
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: hunt Pennsylvania. But like, you only hunt one day during
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: the weekend. So just for the for the average person
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: knocking out, like a your school teacher, and you got
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: obligations Monday through any help, any like infinite number of occupations.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Butt's just say a school teacher, you got obligations Monday
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: through Friday to keep you damn you until dark the
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: winner and then someone then the government's staying. Oh and
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: of the two days you can hunt, uh, you can
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: only hunt one of them. Like if you don't want
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: to go hunting, and you want to go to your
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: local church, go to your local church. Yeah, just because
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: you doesn't no one's no one's like making you go
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: just because you're allowed to hunt on Sunday doesn't mean
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: you have to. I know years ago Seth and I
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: added this up. But if you bow hunted and then
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: rifle hunted in Pennsylvania and you took the opening day
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: years ago, which traditionally is the Monday after Thanksgiving, if
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: you took that as your holiday, but you didn't take
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: any other days off, um, and you didn't hunt the
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: flintlock season. This wasn't accounting that backup. So I wasn't
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: ready for this level of thinking about Okay, just the
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: average joe in Pennsylvania. If you yes, yes, So if
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: you bow hunted the entire season and then every all
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: of our rifle season, no flintlock hunting after Christmas, and
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: you just did sad day hunts and you took the
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: first day of rifle off, that was your only vacation day,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: took you to you hunt nine days? I remember we
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: talked about that. Yeah, So I mean it's yes, every possible,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: you know, besides, like I said, that season, but if
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: you didn't take any other vacation off besides the opening day,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: we gave that because most people, most schools are off,
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: and how many days with that same person game. Now
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: being able to hunt Sundays, well probably double that easily. Yeah,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: you're a hunter many so that's a livable number. It's
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: a big difference when you're you're not allowed to hunt
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: Sunday and like who's going to deer Who wants to
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: go to deer camp for a day? You know, like
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: you can get a whole weekend and at least step
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: can I can I give your grandpa's perspective on it? Yeah,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: I go for it. This is a great argument. We
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: love to have. Yea God bless him. Oh yeah, great guy.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: He hosted us. Yeah, listen, very gracious host put us up.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Fat us who to this great company. His argument, his
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to do. His argument was he likes
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: it that way because he told me on Saturday, you
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: can get up to your hunting camp and quote, get
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: all your clothes ready to everything, and then hunt on
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Sunday and no one's out in the woods. That was no, no, no,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: how did it go? Oh? How did it go? I
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: don't remember? He doesn't he doesn't like the Sunday hunting.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: I know. He I'm sorry. That's I'm trying to give
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: it was I screwed it? Up and and also the
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: opener is now on Saturday rather than Monday. Oh, he
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: liked to go up on Sunday, get all of his
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: clothes ready hunt Monday. And that's how they've always done it,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: and by God, why would you change that. Now? Traditionally
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: we would the Friday after Thanksgiving, we would go to camp.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: That's when everyone would meet there. Saturday we would do
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: whatever work on on camp, go grouse hunting or whatever. Sunday,
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: we get up, go to church at camp. Yeah, we
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: get up, go to church. The priest always had like
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: a blessing for all the hunters going out on Monday.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: We come back and start doing that. On Friday, we'd
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: come back to camp, have a big meal, and then
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: you know, go to bed because you're getting up early
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Monday morning to hit the woods. Dude, now I'm back
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: to thinking that. I'm back to thinking that supports Sunday.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: The band No, no, don't stop to that painted such
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: a nice Bucolic image that you can make more traditions.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: It just screws everything up. But now you can hunt
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: on Saturday, but now you can't hunt on Sunday, and
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: then it's back to hunting on Monday. It's a weird Yeah, man,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Seth's just painted such a nice little man about brought
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: to you thinking of that coming to a close cut,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: that conflicting. Yeah, you know what you might do, Phil,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: because South was going to do a call to action,
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: but I think he does undid any progress he's gonna
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: make by painting. Now, are way better traditions to be
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: made in the future. If Sunday hunting, get up on Sunday,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: shoot a big old bucket. That's my kind of tradition.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: Give a call to action if you want to be
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: in control of your own life and hunt when you
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: want to hunt, and not when the government says or
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: no not because not like of course the commission sets
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: the season. If you want to hunt when the Game
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: Commission says, and not when the state legislature says. Do this. Yeah,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: so there's there's a article on National Deer Association UM
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: Deer Association dot com slash action alert support Sunday hunting
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania with a whole listen. Yeah, just just do
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: like a tell how to do a Google search. Just yeah,
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: you could probably go to Deer Asociation dot com and
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: in the search thing type in Pennsylvania Sunday hunting and
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: it will come up there. You go, um, there's a
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: there's like a click here link. You can go there,
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: fill out some information and it it sends, um, it
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: sends this. You know, basically a thing saying that you
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: want this to pass? Now? Can residents of any state
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: do this and participate? Or only residents of Pennsylvania. I
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: did it, and I asked where you're from and stuff.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: I put Montana, and I'm gonna cue it up right now,
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: let's all do it. Clay is redeemed after embarrassing like
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: almost I thought, embarrassing himself on this show. He found
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: documentation of an l an eel and l of beargrease
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: just to refresh people's memories. Clay was telling me all
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: about how there was a unit of measurement, which is
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: the little it would be a sack if you took
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: a doze skin a deer skin off, skinned to deer's
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: neck out. Now you've got a little tube of like right,
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: you got a little tube of hide. Stitch one end closed,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: fill that with a liquid and then stitch it shut.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: That little sack was a unit of measurement. I challenged
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: him on this, and rather than doubling down. He did
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: a mild retreat. Would you agree, Phil you were there, Yeah,
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: that's a that's a perfect way of framiant. I'd say
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: he didn't double down. No, he did a mild retreat.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: He was still sticking to his guns a little bit.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: He was pretty sure. He kept He said, I've read
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: an article about it. I quoted it. I must have
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: read it some. But he wasn't like, Um, you calling
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: me a liar and want to fight. That's not really placed.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Plus use remote, you know, yeah, you talk a lot
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: of ship remote. So he found it. Uh, it's from
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: he's got he's a picture of the image, a photo
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: of the book. It's all about Girl Stocker, Clay's buddy.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Girl Stocker goes on and on. Guy ends up saying us.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: The black bear was a valuable commodity to early settlers
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: of Arkansas. The price of bear skins at Arkansas Post
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: in eighteen o six ranged from one dollar to two
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: dollars each, and that's sourced. Bear oil sold for one
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: dollar per gallon in eighteen thirty four. In the early eighties,
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: an el of bear grease, formed from the hide from
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: the head and neck of a deer was a standard
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: medium of exchange. A man's status as a provider was
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: judged by the number of elves of bear grease that
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: stood by the fireplace. Bear meats sold for ten bucks
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: per one pounds. That's good stuff of that. Glennwme coming through,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: coming through. Uh. This guy wrote in they have us
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: at his at his high school. He doesn't say what
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: high school went to. They had a tradition where are
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: you um did a prank. It was like a senior prank.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: And for some reason, I like, the idea involves skunk
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: essence skunk oil. But so they wanted to sneak into
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: their high school and and lace some stuff with skunk oill.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: Totally understandable. But they chose hay bales. That's what puzzles me.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Outside of the school. No, no, you gotta read that
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: eighteen times and you realize that it's inside at the school. Oh,
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: they soaked some hay bales. They put skunk oil on
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: hay Bales and put him inside the school. The prank
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: went awry, though, the next morning they discovered that school
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: had been canceled. It was so bad the police came
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: for him. The concentration of skunk oil was so high
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: that it's so completely through the bales and into the carpet,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: causing thousands of dollars worth of damage, which he had
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: to be him and his bodies had to pay for.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: Think of that, and they were arrested. I had I
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: had an anti establishment renegade buddy named Emmett Lombard in
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: high school. Give his full name, Mammy. What if he's like,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: you know, on the up and up? Now? Oh he is.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: I think the Statute of limitations is out on this one.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: But he poured uh fox leure fox here and on.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: You know, our our school was an older building, so
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: it had those old radiators, and he cleared out the
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: school with that. People were throwing up the stuff. Really
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: was he fox trappers that way? Not at all. I
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: don't even know where he got his hands on the stuff.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: But it was a good you know, he had a
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: good plan. Uh this is here's anything. The little clarification
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: We've talked about fifty freaking times about how Mark Twain
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: so the writer Mark Twain, Huckleberry Finn Tom Sawyer. I
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: really liked this clarification. Jumping frog Calveri's county. His birth
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: name was Samuel Clemens. Of course, and he assumed the
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: pen name Mark Twain. And we have talked about what
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: what Mark Twain meant um. On the riverboats in the
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Mississippi River, there's a feller whose job is a stand
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: up front with a marked rope like knots tied in
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: the rope or something or the anchor on the end,
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: and you flick that rope out and then check out
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: deep the waters and the thing is marked in six
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: ft increments fathoms, So one fathom increments Mark Twain means
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: second mark two fathoms safe passage. So Twain had That's
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: the understanding of why Twain took the name Mark Twain.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: But this guy gets into this book tells the book
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: a biography about John McKay, a contemporary of Samuel Clemens
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: whose past intersected with his at the Calm stock load
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: and Virginia City, Nevadam. The guy says here in the book,
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: the guy says this, well, sam clemens use of Mark
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Twain as a pen name did have roots in his
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: time on the Mississippi. His intervening use of the phrase
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: in Virginia City to order his whiskey is an even
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: better story to share Over a few drinks he cools.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: In the book, Clemens claimed he'd appropriated his by then
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: famous gnome to plume from a state Mississippi riverboat captain. However,
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: according to more convincing Virginia City legend, Clemens acquired the
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: nickname before appeared in print, derived from his habit of
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: striding into the Old Corner saloon and calling out to
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: the bar keep to Mark Twain. What he meant was
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: he was ordered two whiskeys, and bartenders would keep track
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: of what you drank on a chalkboard next year name
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: and Mark Twain to marks mark him down for two whiskeys.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: Think of that. I don't know that's cool. I don't know.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Why do you like it? Johnnie? Um? I don't know,
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: it's just next ovel. I like it because especially because
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: we were so sure about the other version of the story,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: you know, and then and I think it also, um
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: it uh makes them just more of a human, you know,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: kind of takes him off of a pedestal. It's just
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: a dude that uh, you know, it's calling out for
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: drinks of whiskey so often that they started developing. I
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: wish Spencer new Heart is here right now, because i'd
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: tell him I could jole him into doing a little
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: fact checker MythBuster on on all this um guy wrote
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: an anti fishing sprinklers on docks are real. I was saying,
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: so people are writing in about people putting sprinklers on
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: docks to keep everybody away, keep fisherman away. And someone
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: was like, no, no, no, no, it's not to keep
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: fisherman away. It's keep ducks and geese from shotting on
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: your dock. They put a sprinkler out and then anytime
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: something comes near it, the sprinkler shoots out water and
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: it spooks off ducks and geese so they don't shat
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: on their This guy's like, this guy wrote in and says, listen,
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: not true. In Florida. There are many docks I fished
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: that are definitely watered, not for ducks or geese. These
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: sprinklers are intentionally aimed into the surrounding water too detour
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: boats from fishing too close to their dock. It is
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: very common. And he goes on to say, my favorite
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: thing here this is probably He says, there's a lady
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: in the Tampa Bay area named Joyce who was damn
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: remember how like like a couple of months ago, and
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: all of some became a thing like to be like
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: a Karen. Now you can be like a says. There's
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: a lady in the Tampa Bay area named Joyce who
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: was caught on camera given anglers a hard time for
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: fishing her dock. So these guys made a Facebook event
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: with a public invitation called fish Joyce Stock. I hope
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: everyone show everybody all the area fisherman can show up
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: at all fish Joyce's dock at the same time. But
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: what what kind of like what kind of angler is
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: going to be scared off by a sprinkler? Yeah? Half
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: tiger fish and you're wearing right, Come on listen, man. Yeah,
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: they're a little annoying picture that I had a home.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: I see those sprinklers pictures. I have a hose on
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: your for somehow, I have a hose on your boat
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: and you're fishing away and all of a sudden, like periodically,
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: I hose you down. You're telling me that your man, Okay,
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: we'll do that. I gotta figure out how to do it.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: I gotta figure out how to get me a little pump.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: But if I now, if I was down there and
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: I saw a sprinkler on a dock. I'd be like,
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: that's a good spot. No one's fishing spot fish Joyce's doc.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: I love it. I just gotta cast, Okay, Yeah, like this,
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: I'm on fish ors dock on the Facebook. And look
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: at that old boy trying to keep people off of
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: his Uh this has already been going for is he outsprings.
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: He's standing on his dock with a hose in one
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: hand and some kind of a stick pull on the
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: other hand, banging his dock. He's trying to scare fish away. Yeah. Yeah,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: and then the guys that are angling are laughing so
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: hard they can't even make a cast. Yeah, he's out
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: banging a broomstick on his dock to spook fish out
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: from under his dock. If you go on YouTube, there's
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: like ten million videos of people like doing the same ship.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: I just I don't understand, Like, what, why, why, what's
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: the problem? I don't know. He's that that old timer
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: right there is an interesting situation. Look now he's just
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: started his engines on his boat that are next next
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: to the dock and just has him sitting there, you know,
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: above idle speed. It's probably not good for whatever. Where
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: the boats sitting just reving. The just turning up ship
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: and marinas and docks aren't used to. He's making a
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: weird calculation. This dude is like he's saying himself, I
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: could be doing whatever it was I'd normally be doing, Okay,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: mowing my lawn, watching too, playing golf whatever. You you're
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: the old guy in Florida. Okay, um, and do that
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: knowing that someone might be fishing. It's just needling out
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: of my awareness. Or I could be down on my
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: dock banging on my dock with a broomstick. Hmm. And
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: he's probably like, I don't want people fishing my dock
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: because it's gonna damage it or something. And there he
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: is smacking his dock with a broomstick. Holy cow, I
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: want to go fishing, and I think people just like
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: to be king of the mountain. Yeah, white tail deer.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: There's another thing I want to get any man, But
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: it's like, very complicated. Let me give it to you
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: real quick. It's so complicated. I was actually emailing with
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: someone at National Shooting Sports Foundation today to get clarification.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: That's very complicated. So the Center for Biological Diversity and
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: the Natural Resources Defense Counsel, which UH two organizations, which
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: are they are not outspoken lee anti hunting. Yeah, they
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: have a proven track record of well, every time there's
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: an issue, they're always on the anti hunting side of it.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: Coincidentally or not. They're petitioning we should get someone from
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: those organizations. I would let you know what that's what
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: Kris needs to do. But Krin's not here right now.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: She needs to get someone from one of those organs
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: to come and be like, no, no, no, no, we're
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: not in that hunting and and explain it. I'd love
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: to hear it. Uh. They're petitioning the Department of the
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Interior and the US Fish and Wildlife Service to quote
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: to band trade in wild mammals and birds, and for
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: regulations instituting a comprehensive chain of custody system for all
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: plants and wildlife imported into or exported from the United States.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: What they're saying is this, this is one of those
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: weird This is one of those like this is a
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: weird COVID thing, like a COVID related thing that might
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: not immediately seem like a COVID related thing. So you
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: have two groups, Center for Biological Diversity and Natural Resources
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: Defense Council. They're coming and saying you shouldn't be able
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: to bring wildlife parts into and out of the country
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: without meeting certain criteria, and they're calling for and immediate
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: ban while we sort out the system. So they're saying, like,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: stop now until we can put in place a satisfactory
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: system to trace any movement of wildlife parts. So the
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: stop now part would mean you don't come into the country,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: you go to like Clay Nukeomb right now is up
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: in Manitoba hunting bears. Clay does not bring any part
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: of that bear, no hide, no meat, nothing crosses that border.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: They don't point out in here that they're proposing that
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: I'll get to the COVID part of this in a minute.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: They don't point out explicitly in here that they're proposing
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: interstate bands as well. But some different legal experts have
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: looked at their use of the Lacy Act. The Lacy
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: Act is used in the US. Would be that I'm
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: trying to quickly explain Lacey Act. The Lacey Act gives
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of teeth to wildlife regulations because let's say
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: you had a state with very lax wildlife regulations and
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: you broke a wildlife law in that state. So let's
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: say you go into a state and you poach it here,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: and then you drive your poach deer from Ohio to Indiana,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: Ohio Illinois, you drive your poach here. Um, you have
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: just violated the Lacey Act. So now you've committed a
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: federal crime and that allows it gives like an enhanced
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: ability for people to go after interstate poachers. The Lacy
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: Act does. And they're calling upon their justifying this band
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: in terms of Lazy Act. And so some people are
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: pointing out that the way this is worded and the
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: enforcement strategy would de facto mean that it would make
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: interstate movement of wild animals wildlife parts would ban that
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: most immediately A look, and you think it has any
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: kind of it has repercussions for anyone that hunts Canada,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: hunts in Africa, being able to bring stuff back with
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: you without going through whatever kind of thing that might
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: presumably be onerous. Now what they're doing is they're saying, oh,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: hey man, we should do this because of COVID, which
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: I feel is a little opportunistic. It's like, does they're
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: sort of selling the idea based on that you're gonna reduce.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: They're saying that, hey, we all know, or we don't
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: all know. We all thought a while ago that COVID
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: absolutely came from bats. Now it's kind of like a
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: toss up between the lab and bats, but absolutely came
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: from bats. Um, we'll slow down or stop the movement
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: of diseases by stopping the movement of wildlife parts. But
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: it seems opportunistic to me. It's like they're going like,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: how can we leverage COVID into um, how can we
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: leverage the pandemic and public awareness around the pandemic into
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: getting a thing we want, which is that you can't
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: move wildlife parts. Yeah? Well, I mean the same kind
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: of people that are gonna latch onto moving wildlife parts,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: the same kind of people that are going to latch
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: onto you know the COVID reasons, right, No overreach is
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: too much over I mean it does it seem like
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: the end goal is interstate trafficking and not international. I
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: saw a clarification about that. I don't want to read
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: the whole email exchange, but I saw a clarification about
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: that today and there was a a learned I received
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: a learned reply about why that UM, why it's likely that,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: as pursued would have impact on interstate which would impact
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, anyone who goes on and out of state
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: hunt at that point watch this transition. Speaking of COVID, hey,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: I think we should just do a quick shout out though.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: If you want to keep before you go to your transition,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: think about it some more. But if you want to
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: keep an eyeball on that, um you can probably keep
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: up with that at ww dot n s s F
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: dot org, which is the National Stream Sports Foundation, as
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: well as um our buddies over at the Sportsman's Alliance.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: Thanks so again, This isn't like, this isn't a law
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: that's been passed. This is a petition. It's a request, right,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: It's an official request on behalf of two organizations which
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: we need to get people from one of those organizations
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: or the other on to explain their mission. Maybe I
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: got it all wrong. I don't know. I'd love to
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: hear more. Speaking of COVID, ready for this transition. White
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: tailed deer are showing up with COVID and staggering numbers.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: It seems not to mess with them, but they're getting it.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: Thirty three of white tailed deer tested in Illinois. Michigan,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: New York, and and and Pennsylvania. Let me start over,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: because this is so kind of surprising. Thirty three of
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: deer tested in Illinois, Michigan, New York, and Pennsylvania were
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: positive for antibodies, meaning they had been exposed at some point,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: but doesn't necessarily indicate they had active infections between January
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: and March, so narrow window of time they tested Foe
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: deer Michigan, sixty seven of one thirteen samples. Sixtent of
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: the tested deer had COVID antibodies. This has not been
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: peer reviewed. Peer review means you do, like a little thing,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: you do a little research, um, and you sent it
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: out to a scientist in your field, and they kind
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: of go through and check your work and they'll they'll
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: poke holes in it, right, And a lot of things
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: don't make it through a peer like someone might look
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: and be like, oh, yeah, but had you thought of this?
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, and they're like, oh, ship, we didn't think
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: of that. And then it doesn't. It doesn't, the idea
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: doesn't advance. This has not been peer reviewed. Even though
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: it hasn't, it seems completely plausible, right, Like not to me,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: it doesn't, I'd have to be. I'd have to know
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: so much more about like when you test, are their
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: false flags? Like I don't know enough about it? What
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: a common what a dear's version of a common cold?
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: Trigger the I don't know. But wasn't there instances like
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: where minx wild minks were infected with and and all
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: kinds of zoos have had animals. That's a good point
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: by you know a lot of zoo critters. You're about
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: that lady that got banished from that zoo for having
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: an affair with that chimpanzee. I wish I could make
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: that whistle noise. I gotta transitions that they didn't have
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: COVID speaking of being a wreck um. They did say
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: I read something a little bit. There was more than
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: what we have here in our notes. It did say
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: that this this, these blood tests have been going on
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: for like a decade, and so they were able to
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: look because saying, oh, well, maybe they've always carried these
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: stars viruses and there's you know, we all know that
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: there's like different versions of COVID all the time. Right, Well,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: they looked back like ten years in history and they're like, no,
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: it didn't there was there. Those markers were not there
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: back then. See, YO knows a lot more about you
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: should lead the discussion. That's all I know about this.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: Well that's a pretty important damn point. Interesting though, Yeah,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: that's the question I was gonna askar up. So obviously
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: questions arise our white tails spreading the virus among themselves
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: and or getting it from close contact with humans. How
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: might this effect spread between and among animals and humans?
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: Are do you're not showing symptoms by acting as hosts
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: for novel mutations to it then pass back to humans.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: Sure it'd be cool if we get a sound of
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: someone doing one of those astonished whistles and then just
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: insert it. I can't really now picture what it's actually
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: supposed to sound like. I'm sure Phil confined like an
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: astonished whistle. Yeah, we can do that. Do you want
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: me to get a live soundboard in here? I have
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: that Yanni one when I first like this just two
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: years ago. Alright, wasn't here, Yeah, yeah, Yanni wasn't here,
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: And Phil took a bunch of Yanni saying a bunch
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: of different things, and you can just hit whatever you
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: wanted ya just say, like, like is that right? Just
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: have to say whatever you wanted to. And then we
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: could also make them look dumb because we could. We
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: could play it saying something real obvious, but then have
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: Yanni be like, I don't understand people like that. Yanni, man,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: he doesn't get anything. Um, here's the interesting story out
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: of Florida. This is another one. It's hard to explain,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: so there had long been. Let me try to think
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: of a different way to tiptoe into this one. Depending
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: where you live here in the good old United States,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: and and for you listeners elsewhere, you'll have your own
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: version of this. Your state may or may not have
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: a law about how far away from a occupied dwelling
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: from a building you can discharge your gun. Meaning in Michigan,
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: for instance, let's say you had a Let's say a
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: guy had a house and he built this house like
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: right dead nuts on the edge of the National forest.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: You gotta be what is it something like that in Michigan,
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: I can't remember. You can't go stand like, let's say,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: his house. Theoretically it is like around the line. You
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: can't go stand like outside his bedroom window and be like,
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: hey bro, I'm on nash of forest man, bam bouch
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: start shooting because you got even if you're even if
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: you're okay to be on the ground, you still have
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: to keep distance from that safety the state I'm sitting
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: in now, as well as you're sitting here now. They
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: don't have it. We used to flow a river for
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: ducks and it felt so weird. I called fishing game.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: Just say, like, man, there's something that just doesn't seem right,
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: even though we've been doing it. And he said, we
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: don't have a law like that. I said, so, what
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: would happen? He goes, what would happen is you hit
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: the guy's house and as a negligent discharge or something.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: But the simple fact of you firing that in and
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: of itself, out of you endangering someone, like, just the
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: simple fact of you firing in close proximity. We don't
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: have a rule about that. I would I would have
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: assumed there was. I just assumed there was. But that's
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: why I called it felt naughty. Yeah, I got a
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: deer spot like that. I saw a new game war
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: and recently I was talking about something that felt naughty
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: but wasn't. And he was saying, like he basically said, well,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: why don't you listen to yourself? Why does that not
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: feel to you. I'm like, just feels like it should
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't be able to do that because you should
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: listen to those instincts. So Florida, there's been some tension
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: between water like there's some tension and some waterfowl hunters
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: have even wanted to clarify because there's like a debate
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: and people get an arguments about where you're hunting. So
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: some hunters wanted to you know, some people in the
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: non hunting community and some people in the hunting community
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: have sought to clarify what is the restricted area and
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: they're creating this restricted hunting area, and it there's a
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: movement to create this rule. The rule provides a clear
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: path for a municipality to establish on their choice to
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: a stay, ablish a restricted hunting area with certain housing
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: density requirements and capability by municipal law enforcement to enforce
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: distant rules outlined in a restricted hunting area. So they
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: have three ft from an occupied dwelling. You cannot hunt
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: within three feet of an occupied dwelling. This guy wrote
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: in what he's worried about is rampant development in Florida.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: So right now it might seem like a good idea, Okay,
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: I see all the houses. I know where the houses are.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: We can't shoot within three hundred feet. But as he's
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: looking along the lake shore with all the development building
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: going on, you look ten twenty years into the future,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: and he's saying, I see an area where even with
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: a duck hunter support. If a duck hunter supported this
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: rule in order to have it, they clearly defined so
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: everybody knows where they're standing legally, He's worried about as
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: our you know, urban rural interfaces. Um, are they going
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: to negotiate themselves right out of all their hunting spots,
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: because every time a house gets built, you've created a
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: circle with a one hundred yard radius that can't be hunted.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: I think about that. It's a refuge a thousand people
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: per day moving to Florida. Cheez, And he points out
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: ducks are found along the shoreline. You go to a
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: lake where the ducks hang out, I mean, you know,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: sometimes not, but I mean typically, yeah, you go to
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: a lake throughound the shoreline. They also have this thing
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: where it matters who owns the house. So the law
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: provides private property rights on public land to those who
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: live inside and r h A. If you live inside
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: in r h a, you can duck hunt inside the
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: three hundred foot boundary or give others permission to do
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: so within three hundred feet of your dwelling, so you
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: can hunt it. It effectively privatizes the lake shore. That's interesting.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: Can you hunt it if your house is less than
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: three feet from the next Oh that's a good that's
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: a good point. Yeah, because where did those spaces? That
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: comes back to the density thing, Like if you live
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: on a lake without a lot of houses and suddenly,
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: but it's interest man, a couple of dudes go by
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: a place, a couple of places, a couple of shacks.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: Also you're like, nah, huh, it's our spot now, bro. Yeah.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: And what if a dude builds a little floating house
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: out in front of your place where you're going to hunt,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, bro, you can't hunt within a
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: hundred yards in my little floating house. Here the list
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: of the road in letcher Um. Him and his fellow
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: anti rual colleagues are trying to work with the FWS
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: what's that stand for Fish and Wildish Wildlife Service Commission
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: Florida to go to negotiate a rule to be a
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: little more palatable. He thinks it's an egregious oversight by
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: the Commission some of the stuff they're not looking at
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: Steve today here, you're correctly. They're like, the municipality can
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: just make up there like that? Can they have authority
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: over that? The municipality can declare a restricted hunting area.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: So I think that would get super messy with depending
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: if you have a hunter friendly municipality or not, or
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: just duck hunters going. That's ridiculous. A bunch of New
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: Jersey is there something as a Florida cat lady, A
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: bunch of Joyce is all the Joyces get together and
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: they're like, I got an idea, Let's make us an
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: r H A community. Yeah, that's a good one, man flatcher,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: good for keeping out. Good on you for keeping an
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: eye out. Very good one. All right, I already moved
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: on to like this, we're gonna move on to a
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: subject that's just to just just really troubles me, keeps
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: me up at night. And that is just how much
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: of our landscape we are burning every year in big
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: hot fires, not the nice ones, the hot soil burners,
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: and holy cow, man like fire is in the fire.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: Like was the news. It got bumped by Cobble, it
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: got bumped by the hurrican Kane. But other than that,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: man fire has had has maintained a real position in
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: the news over multiple years of like news cycles. You
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: get the feeling something weird is going on, something news
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: going on. Then you uh try to make it be
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: that it's not because that's scary. So then you'll sit
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: around and thinking, oh, yeah, but what about the Pestigo
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: fire of eight seventy one that killed people? Um, maybe
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: it's not so bad. I don't know. We're gonna we're
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: gonna get into that, and we're gonna get into it
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: with our guest, Paul Hesberg. So, Paul Hesberg is a
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: research landscape ecologist with the U. S d A's Forest Service.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: He'll tell us what that means, but he's affiliated as
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: a research professor with a handful of universities, including University
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: of Washington, Oregon State University, University of British columb You
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: all right, so we're just gonna ask him direct, Paul,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: can you lay out for folks what it means to
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: be a rate sorry, what it means to be a
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: research landscape ecologist and how does that bring you into
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: the fire world. That's a great question. Thanks for having
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: me on the show, Steve Um. So, a landscape ecologist
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: studies how patterns of different conditions drive processes. So a
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: wildfire would be a process, an insect outbreak would be
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: a process. And so over the last several decades, I've
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: been looking at and reconstructing historical landscapes throughout the West
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: and asking the question what species of trees were growing,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: how dense were they, what were the sort of patchworks
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: or mosaics, what do they look like? And then how
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: did fire behave as a consequence of those conditions. And
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: then I reconstructed current landscapes for the same places, and
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: I compared them, and what I found out was that
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: forests of the present day don't look or function anything
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: like forests of even a hundred years ago. We're on
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: a landscape that doesn't resemble what European colonists found when
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: they got here to the west. Let's uh, let's start
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: with with the kind of question I laid out earlier,
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: Um that forest fires seemed that just you know, I
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: don't like logs. Sort of the number of mentions of
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: forest fires that occur in the news in conversations over
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: the course of my life. But like, man, it really
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: feels like they have just dominated public thinking, particularly in
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: the West, in a way that they did not once
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: upon a time. Yet, Um, you know, you imagine these
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: There's that book called was Rick was the Big Burn?
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: The Big Burn? About the ten like the catastrophic fires
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: of earlier. I mentioned the largest forest fire I believe
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: still today the largest forest fire in US history seventy one,
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: the Pestigo Fire, which was burned across Wisconsin Michigan's Upper Peninsula,
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: killed over a thousand people. So you look at these
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: these monster fires historically and then you try to soothe
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: yourself into thinking like, well, it can't be It's not
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: that bad. So maybe nothing new is happening. Um, what's
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: your take on that. Are we in a new era
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: of forest fires or is it business as usual? We
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: just hear about them more. We're in a new era,
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: Steve Um. The Pestigo fire killed about people, and the
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: firefighting infrastructure wasn't around. There wasn't really well developed, and
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: so it caught them all by surprise. Wendy fire season, Uh,
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: an awful lot of logging had gone through in the
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: Lake States. There's a lot of slash hanging out. So
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: the fire grew over three million acres as a consequence
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: of lack of a big fire suppression infrastructure, caught by
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: a real significant wind and weather event, a lot of
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: fuel hanging around, and it was incredibly frightening and damaging.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: But it didn't get the US thinking about doing fire
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: suppression wholesale and really scaling up to develop just an
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: amazing resource to attack fire. Um. And if you read
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: the history, there's a lot of other really big fires
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: over a million acres that occurred long before the era
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: of fire suppression. We're in a new era and now
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: because the climate is getting warmer, it's getting hotter, drier,
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: and there's a lot more windy days when it's hot
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: and dry. What are the It's interesting that you brought
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: up and I've always called the Pestigo fire, but you
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: just said Pestigo, So, uh, thanks for the correction, Ara.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: But if if it's interesting to bring up that that
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: might of um, that that fire, other later fires might
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: have brought on the era of fire suppression. But can
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: you lay out what factors are at play right now? Um?
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: Because you hear multiple culprits, right, You hear that we
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: have a history of fire suppression and then UM, forest
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: management rights and wrongs, a changing climate. Um, is there
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: a long list or is it a pretty simple list.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: It's a pretty simple list, really. Um. It's taken a
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: lot of work on a lot of people's part to
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: get to the place we are right now. But we
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: know in the West, for example, that the Little Ice
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: Age only ended a short time ago, so it was
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: really mild and sort of equitable in the West, and
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: that that made the the climate not too hot, not
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: too dry, not too wet. It was sort of in
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: the Goldilocks spot for a fairly long period of time,
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: and so there was a lot of forest growth that
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: occurred during that period of time. Um. And what we
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: see from the climate data is after about we see
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: a really different signature on the climate of western North America.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: And it's all the way across the Western States on
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: into British Columbia and Alberta. It's a really big scale thing.
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: In fact, in British Columbia and in the Arctic and Subarctic,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: temperatures are rising at a much faster rate than they
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: are here in Washington State where I live, for example,
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: two to three times the rate of warming and uh,
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: and so those systems are just changing abruptly right now,
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: and so they're burning too. We're saying really extensive fires.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: And the climate unequivocally is driving this rising area burned. Um.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: Everywhere we look, climate drives increasing area burned. It was
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: that way thousands of years ago. It is this way
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: going forward. Can you lay out the fire situation for people? Like,
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: I just know you know where we are. It's smokey,
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: it's been smoky for eight weeks. Um, we hear a
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: lot about it, But like, can you give sort of
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: like a more holistic snapshot of of what's happening at
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: the moment? Sure, happy to do it, So think of
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: I think that we're sort of I'm giving you a snapshot.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: And the numbers aren't done yet, right because an awful
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: lot of places have a much longer fire season. So
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: the snapshot is basically, we've got something like forty three
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: thousand and counting fire starts in the continental US, about
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: plus or minus five million acres have already burned, and
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: we expect that number to continue rise on into the
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: fall and even early winter in some of the southern states,
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: and globally, it appears that is one of the worst
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: fire years on record. So places that normally get fired
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: like Australia and Africa and the Mediterranean countries that that
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: are have that Mediterranean climate. Basically we're seeing those countries
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: really being hit hard as well. And what has been
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: predicted for the last probably thirty five forty years is
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: actually occurring. The climates warning warming in the burned area
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: is on the rise, and what we can see from
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: here is that the area burned since two thousand until
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: about today is going to double triple some estimates or
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: even quadruple by so so it's not a new normal.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: It's actually not settled down. The best years are behind us.
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: That's what the research is telling us. We were talking
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: a little bit before we uh had you on here
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: ask the question you were asking Johnny about, at what
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: point is it do you run out? Yeah, it just
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: seems like, you know, back in the day, we know
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: that there used to be like a recurring mosaic kind
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: of a fire pattern, right, and that seemed to keep
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: the big fires from happening. And as much as it's
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: been burning over the last ten years or however long
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: it's been since nineteen, it would seem as though at
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: some point the fires would have to start coming back
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: on top of the you know what they've already burned,
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: and thus it would start to limit like how big
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: they could get. So it's like a two part question,
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: like is that happening? And then in general, can you
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: say what, like what percentage of I don't know if
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: you want to do it nationally or just pick a
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: state of like stuff that ken Burn has already burned
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: in the last two decades, so tens of millions of
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: acres have burned throughout the West, and we're seeing burned
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: area rising in the Lake States and in the Northeast.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: There's a ton of prescribe burning in the South and
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: the South coastal Plain and that's having an incredibly positive
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: effect on low burned area in places like the Carolinas, Georgia, Laurida, Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: That those southern pine forests, they do a lot of
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: prescribe burning, and so they have a different story right
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: now that's going on in the West. We we don't
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: have license to burn that many acres. Georgia, I think
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: in the last two or three years had one year
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: with a prescribed burned a million acres, which is a
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: really big deal. And what that does is it changes
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: the dynamics. If you burn it under the right fuel
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: and weather conditions, you get good fire behavior and you
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: get good fire effects. We're not up to those kinds
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: of acres and we need to be burning that a
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: really central part of your question. Then it's a super
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: clever question. You think you think severe fires are driven
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: by woody fuels, and once you start burning up a
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: lot of the woody fuels, you would expect that, hey,
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: it's going to tip back to a sort of a
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: more benign system. Right, we're finding out it's different than
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: that under climate change. Let's say an area burns and
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: you get, you know, half a million acre fire. Let's
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: say the Bootleg fire, right, You've been reading about that
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: in Oregon, and there's a lot of severe fire behavior
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: in that area. What we're seeing is those areas then
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: get a lot of meadows and shrublands developing in and
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: that's the first thing that comes back after the removal
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: of forest, right by a severe fire. What happens is
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: you'll get recurring ignitions on the margins of some of
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: those and it will reburn again. And when it reburns.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: If you had surviving forest, or you had seedlings and
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: saplings that started to seed in and regenerate a new forest,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: they get burnt out, and so you start converting big
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: areas of forest um into areas where it's very difficult
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: for forest to walk back again. And the question you
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: asked before about that, Patrick, you know, I think about
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: all the elk stands I've ever sat in before where
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: I look across and I see a really cool meadow,
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: and I'll see areas where the elker bedding first thing
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: in the morning, and I'll look across the drainage and
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: it's open and I can see for two mile. Also
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: heard about coming in in the late season while the
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: largest dropped its foliage, and you see this mosaic, this
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: patchwork of conditions that provide sort of everything in a
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: fairly small neighborhood. Well that's not what's repeating under the
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: current fire regimes. We're getting a really different patchwork. It's
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: really coarse. The burned areas are large because we're putting
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: out all the small and medium sized fires. Because they
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: occur under more moderate fire weather, they're easier to hook,
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: they're easier to hold right and so the things that
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: are burning the landscape are the fires that escape under
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: really difficult, hot, dry, windy conditions, and they escape initial attack,
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: They escape all valid attempts to try to keep it
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: in a small paddock, you know, to keep the fire
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: small and and resources. Firefighters have to fall back because
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: otherwise it's dangerous, they'll be high loss of life. Can
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: you can you explain, um, this is an our debate
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: we're having or not debate. We're just the acusting this. Uh,
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: how some fires, you know you'll hear layman such as myself,
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: you know, we'll talk about a fire, um burned too
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: hot right or what was the term you're using seth
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: soil glazing right where it creates this this situation where
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: it's hard for the forest to recover, as opposed to
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: certain kind of fires that maybe are not the not
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: the case, Like, what's the vocabulary for what I'm trying
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: to get at here about these fires that that that
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: that just strip it of organic strip the soil of
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: any kind of organic matter. It's very hard to come
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: back versus I don't know, a good fire, a happy fire. Yeah.
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: So in terms of the words, intensity means the energy
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: that's released at the head and fire the flaming front
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: of a fire, right, and that's sort of that's in
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: killer watts. It's a bunch of energy and the effects
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: are the fire. We discussed them as severity, and it
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: can be soil severity. How bad is to cook out
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: the duff and litter in the organics? Right, And then
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: you've got severity as it relates to what happened to
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: the forest that used to be there, how much got killed?
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: And we think about severity in both of those ways.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: Right now, when soil severity is low and we have
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: sort of intermediate uh, fire severity in terms of fire
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: effects on the forest, what you see is all sorts
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: of opportunities for forests to walk back. But when you
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: have soil severity that's really high and centuries millennia of
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: duff and litter and organic accumulation gets cooked out to
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: you know, ten twelve inches, you're literally starting over, and
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: it can take hundreds of years for a forest to reobtain.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: When fire soil severity is fine, it can burn down,
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: you say it can. It can burn down twelve inches
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: like some seed hiding out down there. It's just gone.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: So there's some seeds in the soil what we call
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: the soil seed reserve or the seed cash that have
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: got a lot of apps for being able to hang out,
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: and they actually many of them are turned on by
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: by high heat. So when you're hunting in a logical
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: area and you see a bunch of c and this,
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: for example, hanging out seeds in the seed cache got
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: turned on by the heating and there are that's the
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: treatment that allows them to germinate and become shrubs, um
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: others that that rely on perennial root systems. If the
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: heat is too high, then an awful lot of the
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: herbs and the grasses and stuff, it's a do over
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: for them and they have to get seeded in from
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: someplace else. So soil severy is a big deal, and
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: it's a super smart question because in this whole mix
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: of how do patterns influence forest fires that we like
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: versus those that do damage to the habitat and resources,
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: all of this comes into the max how much duff
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: and litter is they're available to burn. If you have
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: a really hot fire, a lot of times you'll see
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: this smoldering combustion go on for weeks and that smoldering
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: combustion is what if it's hot and dry, is what
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: will cook out the soil. So it's just constant heating
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: sitting on top of that soil, and you'll see these
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: red soils and ashed soils right when you're out there
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: in the bush, and it's because high soil severity has
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: occurred and it's going to very tough for the forest
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: to come back. I find that when people talk about
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: you know, oh, the problem is that we didn't do this,
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: or the problem is this sometimes kind of demonstrates someone's
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: particular worldview UM, meaning someone from a certain industry. You
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: might point and be like, oh, it's because we're not
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: doing forest management. It's because the you know, or it's
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: because the radical environmental um element won't let us do
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: what we need to do. Or someone might say, oh,
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: it's because you know climate change UM. And a lot
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 1: of times it's sort of like ties into sort of
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: you know where your biases are. But talk about management
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: for a minute, meaning if we had the public will
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 1: in the in the public will and the resources to
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: address what we could address outside of trying to tackle
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: global climate change UM. Not that we should leave it untackled,
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: but just that look like that's a bigger, probably decades
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: centuries long problem. Um, what in the immediate in the
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: immediate term, if we had public will and resources, could
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: we actually be doing right now to get a grip
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: on the problem? And who what stands in the way
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: of us? Well, I got a lead was saying that
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 1: the big ticket item is reducing greenhouse gas emissions. That's
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: what's driving the bus on big area burned right now,
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: and so grabbing ahold of it and having the mindset
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: that we're going to do something about those emissions is
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: super critical because it's going to take decades for that
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: change to pulse through the system and for CEO two
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 1: in the atmosphere to come down. So it's yesterday we
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: have to start that process. That's probing the bus. In
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: terms of in terms of what's going on with the forest,
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: we know that area burns driven by hot, dry climate, windy,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: severe weather, that kind of thing. But we know that
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: to fuel and forced density and that sort of thing
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: is what creates the intense heating that causes soil severity
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: and fire severity. And so going back to the things
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: that I study, when I look back on the historical landscapes.
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: What I see is on the ridge tops, on the
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: dry south aspects, the forests were really open. Sometimes you'd
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: call them just a sparse woodland, you know, open pines
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: on dry doug first sites, open woodland of doug fur,
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing, open limber pine sites. And and
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: what's happened in during this period of fire exclusion, which
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: starts with the loss of indigenous burning hundred and fifty
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: hundred seventy years ago, trees started seating in, and they
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: started getting bigger, and they kept seating in, especially the
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: ones that are fire intolerant and shade loving. Okay, so
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: doug furs, grand Furst, white first, those sorts of things
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: are are seeding in and so open becomes closed over
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty years. And it's that patchwork of
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: open and closed conditions that changed how fire flowed on
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: the landscape. When you had an open canopy condition, fires
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: would stay on the forest floor and they'd burn up
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: the dead wood that accumulated, and free quent fires increase
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: the likelihood that the next fire would be low severity.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: So you had these frequent low severity systems in the
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: dryer forest down in the valley bottoms around the north aspects,
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: you would see conditions that would be more would be denser,
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: and there'd be more layered. And that's where different kinds
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: of habitats were occurring, but they didn't dominate the entire landscape, right,
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: And so the way fire flowed on the landscape was
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: influenced by how much deadwood, how open or closed, and
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: how layered the canopy was. And so you'd see this
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: mosaic being repeated, not in the same place, but you'd
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: see it the shifting mosaic occurring and that's those were
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: feedbacks to reducing the severities of the next fires. Big
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: fires are not noteworthy in the historical record. There are
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: many many big fires. That's what's going on inside of them.
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: Those those boundaries that's changed. He used to be a
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: patchwork of of low severity, didn't burn high severity kind
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: of in between, right, And so you get this very
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: blotchy pattern and that produced all the habitats for the
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: critters that were interested in And that's what went out
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: of the system, right. And I think a lot of
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: it has to do with the a lot of factors
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: that sort of collaborate or come together to create a
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: condition of forests and forestry were not the original intent
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: of the U S forest Ors. It was protecting water
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: and grazing that was the original intent of the Forest Service.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: After World War Two, trees and logs became important, and
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: we started logging the big trees because they had the
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: most volume at the time and they were most merchantable.
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: And every time we'd pull out big sticks, trees would
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: regenerate and release and make the forest denser. So you
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: can see that evolution of several factors coming together, and
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: by four we got the ten em rule. We're putting
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: fires out by ten am, and we're keeping less than
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: ten acres, and so now you have fifty sixty years
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: where the forest has a chance to get dense layered
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: and be now prone to severe fire in a lot
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: more places. I got a quick question, um, Paul, is
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: is that something like that was open grown forests like
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: you were talking about back in the day. Is that
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: something that with management today that like for Service is
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: trying to get back to or is that something that's
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 1: just like never gonna happen again. That's a great question,
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: and it's a big ticket item, not just the Forest Service,
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: but a lot of forest managers are literally trying to
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: put those open ground conditions with the bigger trees on
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: the landscape because big trees that bark fire tolerant you know, pine,
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: big duck for big western march, they can tolerate fire.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: And so getting stuff you know, fifteen to thirty totes
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: back on the landscape and having those via the dominant
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: veg cover is the bed hedge on climate change and
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: changing fire regimes. So they're doing it in many places
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: that they can uh where really it makes sense in
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: the landscape right hot dry places, places that are gonna
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: need to stay open to stay in forest when you
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: get too into where the next big fire is gonna hit.
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: Are you, guys, do you have like a sophisticated modeling
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: mechanism that allows you to in some way predict what's
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: most likely to go? Or is it is there just
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: too much sort of randomness around cause that prevents you
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: from really understanding, you know, what's next. If anybody, if
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: any of us had that model, we'd be wealthy. People
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: wouldn't um the There's a lot of cool modeling going
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 1: on right now that predicts if you have ignitions. So
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: a lot of my modeling friends will nuke the landscape
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: with random ignitions. And the last the question what will
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: um fire size and fire severity be under different weather conditions? Right,
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: and so they can create sort of map services of
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: what's likely. They call it a quantitative risk assessment. It's
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: being done all over the United States right now with
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: some existing tools. The problem is they are random factors.
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: There's a ton of human ignitions. Where are they going
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: to occur? Nobody knows. So often conditions are ready to
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 1: burn across an enormous area, tens of millions of acres,
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: but nobody knows where the human ignition is coming from.
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 1: Nobody knows where you're going to get the dry lightning.
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 1: We get these dry convective storms all the time, right,
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: You've seen them out there on the landscape. Sometimes they're wet,
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: their thunderstorms with a lot of rain. Sometimes they're dry
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: and they'll just bomb a mountain range and you know,
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 1: put it on fire. So, um, there's a lot of
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 1: wild cards in the mix for these factors as they
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: have to come together, and in the randomness of the
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: ignitions is a big part of it. Uh, do humans
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: lead lightning for causes of major fires? And a lot
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: of areas. They really do a lot of areas the
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: fires are actually human caused. What are they doing? What
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: are what? What are they? What are we doing? Like
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 1: you know, flicking matches, throwing cigarettes out of the window,
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: Like what is the primary thing that folks are up to?
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: So um, So we look at all the ignition data
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 1: across the western US right now, we have ignition data
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: sets over the last decades, and believe it or not,
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: hunter campfires are a big deal. We see we see
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: sort of the ignition period of the normal fire season,
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: but when we get into the rett and we start
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: seeing people in the woods starting in late August September
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 1: on into October, there's another peak from hunter fires that
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 1: essentially are igniting continuing tonight the landscape. So hunters can
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: contribute an awful lot by you know, making sure that
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: they they tamped their fire out. But we actually see
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: a pulse in the data most years. You know, that's
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 1: that's really interesting, man, because I kind of wrote them off.
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: But I had a guy know who's a firefighter and Wyoming,
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: and he swore up and down to me that they
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: when archery season, when elk archery opens, they have a
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 1: busy few days of responding to fires. I was like,
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: that can't be true, man, he goes, I'm telling you, dude,
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: every year it's a real thing, and it's it's bigger
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: than Wyoming, right, Um, and a lot of us when
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: it's pretty darn cold out there, we'll put together a
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: little warm and fire and and they, you know, critters
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 1: come through the neighborhood and all of a sudden we're
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 1: shooting and flinging arrows. And sometimes that fire doesn't get
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 1: tamped down, so um and and they'll take a walk
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: because the fuels are still drying. Right, I want to
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: get back. I'm gonna let I'm gonna let these other
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: guys hit some questions. But I want to circle back
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 1: on part of Yanni's question that I was particularly trigued by.
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: And you didn't get around to it. And maybe it's
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 1: too hard to answer, but um, if you model, let
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: let's take you can do your own state Washington, you
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: can do California whatever you want. If it's possible to
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: answer this, you take a map of what could burn,
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 1: or you know, like take a map of like highly likelihood,
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: high likelihood landscapes and Washington that are prime for a fire. Um,
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 1: and what percentage of that have we like whittled away
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 1: at over the last couple of decades, meaning well, in
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: five years, well California or Washington have run out of
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: have like run out of what could burn because they burned? No, no,
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: I did answer the question, what is the model? The
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 1: model that you're thinking about is actually not the right one.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: As the climate warms and ignition continue to increase over time,
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 1: areas that already burned produce all sorts of flashy fuels.
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: They're available to burn every single year. So depending upon
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: the severity of the previous fire, you can continue to
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: burn and reburn those areas, and more often you reburn
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: them in a short time span, the less likely that
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: they'll come back to forest if the fires are severe. Okay,
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: that was that was the gas being smarter than the host.
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: I forgot about that? You did? You did? Uh? You
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: did answer that? Um? Thank you? All right? What else
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: you guys got? I got one, Paul. So we know
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: that like, low intensity fires are generally good for deer
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: and elk and all kinds of other you know, animals
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: and birds. When you when you get one of these
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: giant high intensity fires, how do animals like elk, Like,
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: how does that affect how they use the landscape after
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: one of these really high intensity giant fires, Like where
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: I heard of a couple of thousand elk may have
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: lived in one drainage and now that it's all burned out. Yeah,
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: well that happened to me and my favorite hunting spots
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: in the Blue Mountains of Oregon. I think it's happening
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 1: to a lot of hunters these days. Yeah so so,
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: But what I wanted to use as a specific example,
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: um where I was there before the fire and then
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: after the fire, and and had the hunting experience after
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: the fire each year. Okay, So we hunted in an
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: area where there was fifty acre fires. A big fire
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 1: is super hot and it killed most of the forest.
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 1: This is uh an area we hunt in the late hunt.
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: So we're there last week of October and first week
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 1: in November, right, and we're hunting in snow and so
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 1: and it's a it's a fabulous time to hunt. The
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: bowls are in bachelor groups and a lot of times
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: we'll get a lot of excellent looks. Right, And so
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: we hunted this before the fire and was very very
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: productive area. After the fire, it was so hot, but
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: the forage conditions were really good for about five or
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: six years, so we still tag bowls in this area
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: after the fire, And then then this came up. The
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 1: lodgepole pine started falling down in jacks drawing, and we
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: hunted for two years after that. We had a hard
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: time even getting around the dog here, lodgepole pine, cutting lanes,
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Um. But eventually it became too
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: hard for hunters and elk to reoccupy the area. So
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 1: this is a vast area that's going to have to
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 1: grow open forest, a lot of lodgepoles, smaller stuff is
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: gonna have to fall down, creating openings in the woods,
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 1: shade out the Cno, this that sort of thing. I'll
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: never get to hunt there in the rest of my life.
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 1: What generation will really depends on sort of the disturbance
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 1: history that happens in there in the coming decades. If
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 1: they just allow it to grow up, it's gonna be
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: a very dense dog hair place with cis and lodge
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: pole pine. You know, the stem counts and most of
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: the areas where I had stands, we're in the five
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: to twenty thousand lodge bowl stems breaker they're just it's
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: like hair and the dog literally dance lodge Pole pine
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: after the fire. This is a six thousand to nearly
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 1: seven thousand feet elevation, So we're up in this sabutin
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 1: right in the cold forest, and it's gonna be a
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 1: long time. If other fires come in there and they
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 1: start pockmarking that landscape again, uh, then you'll start to
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: see those habitats come alive again. But it's not interesting
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 1: for forage. It's hard to get around and eat um.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: I sort of used to think from the days when
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 1: my father took me hunting that if it's hard for
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 1: me to get around, it's going to be hard for
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 1: white tail to get around. I grew up in the
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 1: Lake States hunting in Minnesota, and the same thing. You know,
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: if they're really having a pussy toe to get from
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: place to place and it takes a long time and
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 1: it's difficult to find forage and not going to hang out.
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: There were tremendous bedding and forage areas in this patchwork
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 1: for many decades and that's gone. That's a completely different
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: look and feel to the place. So decades and there's
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 1: got to be fire and other stuff going on to
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: start breaking it up again recreating That was the I
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: have a question Paul, you kind of touched on it
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 1: about you know, super popular now and force management to
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 1: bring prescribed fire now as you talked about in the south,
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: but more so at that like inner Mountain West or
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: western landscapes, especially in the Wui's like all those will
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 1: and urban areas. Um, are we losing our window with
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: climate change to do have a lot more prescribed fire
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 1: because I know you have the weather conditions, have to
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: be perfect safety everything and have fire conditions and have
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 1: the burn you want. Are we Is that affecting like
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 1: how much prescribed fire we can put on the ground
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: or no, is it not as much as we inc
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: It's a smart question. The windows really shifting. It's getting smaller,
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: it's not getting bigger um and a lot of but
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: there's still a ton of management going on and interface
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: environments by a lot of different kinds of managers. A
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 1: lot of what they're doing is they're coming in and
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: they're thinning there, creating small piles for the fuel concentrations.
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: They're burning those piles and you'll see a lot less
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: broadcast burning, which is the wild card right in those situations.
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: Where he got homes tucked in and and dense developments.
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 1: But you still have the pile burning that you can do.
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 1: And if you think about it, you can do pile
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: burning all winter long. Um so uh and there's a
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: pretty big window for that. So even with I guess
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 1: a two part of that. So even with climate change,
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 1: you're still saying we're we're doing good by pre commercial
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: thinnings and mastication and all that, just reducing that trees
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 1: per acre in a lot of that area. Even though
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 1: we are getting hotter and drier, we're still that's still
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: a good move mint of force management. Yeah, we we
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: have to use as much of the window as possible
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: and uh and and and treat these areas basically keep
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 1: people in their infrastructure safe and then move out from
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 1: that because if you think about it, how the fire
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: comes to those communities is also a really key variable.
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: Remember Paradise burn in California burned from spot fires five
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: miles away, right, and so so changing that how fire
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 1: operates on the broader landscape needs to be coupled with
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: really creating those safe environments in the wooee and places
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 1: near them. So, yeah, use as much of the window
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: as you can. And the really cool thing we're seeing
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: is once we bust into an area and we get
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 1: good treatments, the window gets bigger. We have more and
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: more opportunity because we've knocked the fuels down and so
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: the maintenance work that goes on there's a lot less
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: hazardous and so. But the one key part of your
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: question is if we don't have a fairly large footprint,
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 1: as the window shrinks, it's going to be less and
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 1: less likely that we'll be able to have the sort
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 1: of size of the footprint that we need. So timing matters, Paul.
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, the governor of Wyoming hadn't
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 1: made an interesting comment. It was during the sort of
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 1: height of this this movement to take federally managed lands
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 1: and privatize them or transfer them to the states, and Um,
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: the governor Wyoming had made a comment that if Wyoming
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: had all of the federal lands under its jurisdiction, one
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: fire season would bankrupt the state or something to that effect.
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 1: Um him just pointing out the incredible cost of firework.
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: You mentioned your own agency, the U. S. Forest Service,
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: And it's sort of, you know, it's it's evolving gradually
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 1: shifting set of priorities. What how much you know can
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: you quantify the sort of like time, money, brain space
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: that your agency is now dedicated to fire, presumably at
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 1: the expense of other priorities. Years ago, sevent of the
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: gross National Forest Service budget went to fire suppression on
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 1: an average fire year. That varies now between fifty and
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 1: of the budget. So you can see that the fire
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 1: issues is much larger, and it's incomprehensible for an agency
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 1: like the Forest Service or any other responsible agency to
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: say that we're not going to try to keep people
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 1: safe and to protect the land and so so you'll
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 1: see those investments increasing, but the proactive work has lagged behind.
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 1: Uh And if you stop and think about if the
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: research is showing that being able to work on the
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: landscape before the fact has a higher payoff than reacting
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 1: in some of the worst moments when it's going to
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 1: be difficult to stop the fires and keeping small. So
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 1: so there needs to be this coupling at fairly large
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: scales of trying to keep people safe while with proactive
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 1: work we're able to be able to buy down the
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 1: changes that have occurred over the last century and a half.
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 1: And you're seeing the current administration talk pretty seriously about
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 1: making some significant events, and a lot of our neighbors
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 1: Californias has invested five hundred million dollars, the state of
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: Oregon is investing hundreds of millions. Washington State kind of
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 1: the same thing. And so you're seeing a lot of
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 1: state and federal folks looking at how they can put
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: together the people and the resources to operate at scale
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 1: on the problem. Yeah, I imagine it's hard to get
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 1: It's hard to get policymakers, politicians convinced, um, you know,
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 1: when budgets are tight, to convince them that you can
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 1: spend a dollar now and save two later. Right, Like
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 1: the logic adds up. But I imagine it's still a
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 1: hard conversation to have, and it's probably hard to get
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 1: people to want to invest up front rather than waiting
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 1: till it's you know, literally a house on fire, um,
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: and and deal with it then at at a higher cost. Absolutely,
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: And you know, we're starting to get some really good
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 1: data um Headwaters Economics. A number of our partners across
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 1: the West are are capturing the cost after the fire
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: kinds of estimates, and they're comparing it to the suppression estimates,
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 1: and I think increasingly as these data get out, people
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: are basically seeing it's a clever move to be able
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 1: to minimize the total impact on society because they after
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 1: the fire impact is much larger than the suppression cost
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 1: or even the cost to do the proactive work. So
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 1: you're seeing that starting to hit pay dirt, and you're
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 1: starting to see those kinds of decisions and investments. You
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 1: think about it, it's it's a fairly significant shift and
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 1: people have to really sharpen their pencils and look at
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 1: the trade offs. And because there's not an endless supply
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 1: of money, right, they're having to make tough decisions about
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 1: where to invest resources. So Paul just we touched on
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 1: climate change with fire intensity and then like early succession,
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 1: like a lot of forests transitioning from that early successional
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 1: to late successional you know, age class tree s breaker.
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 1: But what about is there any significant impact on over
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 1: on fire as a landscape level um with like insect
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: and disease, So they have like like white pine blister
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 1: rested with white pine, mountain pine beetle, or even just
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 1: invasives to like cheat grass and stuff, Like how how
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 1: big of a role is the shifting of insect disease
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 1: or invasives playing in the change of fire intensities in
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: the West. So in terms of invasives, the more severe
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 1: the fire and the more the soil severity impact, the
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: likelihood of invasives really getting a stronghold and expanding is
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: a big deal. Invasives are less than well understood problem
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: in in the public eye, and they really, they really
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 1: have the ability to change the landscape. Think about cheat
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: grass in the places that you've hunted. When cheat grass
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: obtains across the landscape, it changes the fire regime so
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 1: that the bunch grasses that used to be there, when
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 1: they are replaced by cheat grasses, you have a continuous
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 1: fuel bed and those areas can keep burning. And so
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 1: cheat grass gets a purchase on the landscape and it
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 1: keeps growing in a much larger area. The same with
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 1: a number of invasives. So invasives are a big deal.
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 1: The bark beetle thing, the bark beetle of feedback is
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 1: on the front end, right, So you have too many
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 1: trees a low vigor during the hot, dry years, you
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 1: get a lot of bark beetle mortality. Think of the
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: million acres in British Columbia that went down early in
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 1: the century, right, Um, awful lot of that collapses over
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 1: one to three decades. And now you've got this incredible
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 1: injection of fuel into the system, and that will produce
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 1: a very different response across fairly large areas where you
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 1: have big beetle upbreaks. So that's kind of the tail
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: wagon the dog and that sort of thing. Um does
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: do wildfires sanitize so that you don't have bark beetles? Yeah,
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 1: for a time. And if the forest come back, and
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 1: if they come back really dense, and once they get
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 1: two diameters that are post material for the Beatles, you'll
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 1: see that cycle happen again. So the fire regime, having
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 1: a characteristic fire regime for the forest type is a
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: key to keeping those things in balance over big space
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 1: and time. That makes sense. The fire regime, having a
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 1: characteristic fire regime is the engine that drives the system. Yeah, no,
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 1: that makes perfect sense, thank you. Yeah, I know with
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 1: climate change and fire shifting a lot. Now do you
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: feel like we're making a positive UM advance socially? Like
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: people are getting more accepting of like prescribed burning, understanding
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 1: fire has a role. But then you know, high severity
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 1: fires are damaging. Um, and do you think management is
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 1: kind of transitioning to you know? It kind of seems
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 1: like it's a pendulum swinging back and forth from the
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 1: you know, ten am policy of fire suppression to you know,
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 1: but like, do you think we're going in a positive route?
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 1: I guess I do. It's another really smart question. So, UM,
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 1: when I talk to my social scientists friends, what they're
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 1: basically telling me is people get it. They're accepting of
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 1: the treatments that are important to to move the compass
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 1: heading right from where we are to a better place. Um,
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 1: but we're also learning from them based on pastic experience
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 1: that if treatments in the woods are driven primarily by
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 1: a commercial desire, there's mistrust in the process. But where
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 1: the timber removed is a byproduct of getting the right
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 1: stuff done in the woods to be able to change conditions.
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 1: There's a high degree of trust and that and that's
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 1: a certain they call it a zone of agreement. People
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 1: want to do that, but but the trust depends on
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 1: being driven to climate change adapt and fire regime adapt
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 1: the woods. It makes sense, so he as it does?
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 1: Or do do you feel like the public is generally
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 1: being more trustworthy of the federal especially the US Forest Service,
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 1: as far as whenever kind of you know, any timber
• 2:03:41
  Speaker 1: management is done it is not for timber production, but
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: more for a civil culture based landscape level management. Do
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: you think that's changing in the public's eye they're more um,
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 1: you know, accepting of that, or do think it's still
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 1: when they see any timber management being done they look
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 1: at it as it's for that value. That's a good
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 1: question because I think a lot of people who aren't
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 1: well schooled reflectively, like if they see logging activity, they're
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 1: sort of trained to be like, oh, that's bad. Yes,
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 1: And how are those timber companies managing compared to the
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 1: Forest Service? Like, I assume they're probably doing a fairly
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 1: good job, but the perception is probably much different. Yeah,
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 1: So there's a bunch of layers there. I'll try to
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 1: hit it with one sort of overarching idea. The public
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 1: is a big thing, right. It's made up of all
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 1: sorts of disparate groups with different histories and attitudes and
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: concerns and values. By and large, there's expanding trust to
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 1: do good work with the devil's in the details, right, Um,
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 1: what we generally see from the social science studies is uh,
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 1: people who live closer to the land. So I'm thinking
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 1: of the rural communities, people that are natural resource space there,
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 1: Um they've got mills nearby, their ranching communities, farming communities.
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 1: Where people live close to the land, there's very strong
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 1: concern about the current conditions, and people are cooler about
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 1: getting the work done. Where people live in more metropolitan
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 1: areas and they're a little bit more detached, we see
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 1: more of this highly different view of of sort of
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 1: disaffection with forest management techniques and silvicultural techniques because there's
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 1: still a deep vein of mistrust in some communities and
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 1: so an awful lot of When I speak in public,
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 1: I basically say I'm talking to you about a social
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 1: problem that has an ecological explanation, all right, because the
• 2:05:52
  Speaker 1: solution lives in the social domain. It's people coming together
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 1: to agree on what to do, where to do it,
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 1: and how to do it. Um. Well, I can explain
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 1: from my research and that of a bunch of other
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 1: colleagues how we got here and what the science suggests
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 1: represents good work. But in the end, it's people coming
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 1: together to forward to those agreements. And whether that happens
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 1: fast enough and that scale, it remains to be seen.
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 1: We're not there, Paul. I think we're good. Man appreciate it. Hey, thanks,
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 1: thanks the work you guys do, keep it going. Thanks
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 1: a lot again, Paul Hesberg. Um, he's got like a that.
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 1: He's got some kind of ted talking. Go check out too.
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 1: Maybe we'll put that in liner notes. Um, thank you
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 1: guys all sitting here. Brodie, thanks for the smoke Lake trout.
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 1: Next time, I won't dry it out pull a little earlier.
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 1: I got a few more filets in there to experiment with.
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 1: Rick and Seth. Thanks for hosting me on The Flintlock Hunt. Yeah,
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: Chip in the poof available on Netflix. Yeah, thanks for
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 1: having me on the podcast. Phil, thanks for stepping above
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: and beyond man taking on like a producer role. Yeah, friends,
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: it's harder than it looks tearing it up. Yeah, Johnny,
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 1: thanks for drawing at sheet tag. Hey, you're very welcome.
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 1: I should like to have one of those. I'll keep
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 1: you all posted how it goes all right, So you
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 1: guys soon