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Crypto Index ETF Demand Will Explode🚀Hashdex INTERVIEW · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Let's take a look at the market today, and of
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: course I want to dive into ETFs, the impact on
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: what this might have on elections and really the markets
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: in general in terms of adoption. I'll break it down
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: for you guys. My name is Paul Barrel. Welcome back
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: in a tech path. I want to open up with
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: a clip today. This is from Paul Tutor Jones, and
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: really it's kind of a scenario of you. You look
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: at things, whether it's bitcoin or gold, and where his
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: position lines up, where the markets are going.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Take a look.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: Given all of the things you're saying, are you off
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: buying gold and bitcoin? And I think all roads lead
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: to inflation, We're going to end up so.
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: Just all roads lead to inflation. Therefore gold is a
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: good investment. Is bitcoin a good investment? To you?
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: I'm long gold, I'm long bitcoin. I think commodities are
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: so ridiculously under own, so I'm long commodities. I think
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: most young people find their inflation hedges via the Nasdaq.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: That's also been great.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: It's probably some combination.
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: I probably have some basket of gold, bitcoin, commodities, and
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: nasdaks something like that. And I want to own zero
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: fixed income. If I had not cash, you'd be very
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: short term. The playbook to get out of this, you
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: see it in Japan right now they have two percent
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: inflation thirty basis points overnight. They don't want to raise rates.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: The playbook to get out of this is that you
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: inflate your way out, all right.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: So, as you can see, this is kind of the
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: lineup of what we talk about here on the channel lot.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: So I want to get one of the companies out
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: there who have been very successful on the ETF side,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: and that is Hashtack. So joining me is Samir Curbage.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Who's the CIO over there?
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: How are you, hie?
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: Paul wo'ds you?
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: Excellent.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Well, listen, let's dive into a little bit about hashtacks
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: in general. Some people may not be completely aware of
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: what you guys are doing. I know you're a US
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: based company, you have offices in Brazil, et cetera. Give
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: me a rundown of where you guys are right now?
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah? Sure?
• 1:59
  Speaker 5: So, which is a global asset manager, a crypto focused
• 2:02
  Speaker 5: asset manager. So our mission is to provide investment strategies
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: to help traditional investors to benefit from this crypto economy
• 2:13
  Speaker 5: in this new SSE class, which is based on blockchain technology.
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: So we founded the company back in twenty eighteen. We
• 2:21
  Speaker 5: have multiple ETFs listed in different countries. We launched the
• 2:24
  Speaker 5: world's first crypto index ETF in a partnership with NASDAK.
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: It's called the hashtags Nasacrypto index. Is listed in Brazil,
• 2:32
  Speaker 5: is listed in some countries in Europe, and we're working
• 2:35
  Speaker 5: to bring that type of product to the US.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: So a lot of innovation around that.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: ETFs are starting to move much more fluidly here in
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: the United States.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Obviously what's happening with black Rock Fidelity, et cetera.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: And very successful in terms of inflows over the last
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks, Very very positive for that. When you
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: look at the US market compared to the rest of
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: the world around ETF, is there a similar appetite because
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: prior to the ETFs in the United States, I remember
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: when Canada first launched the first ETF out there for bitcoin,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: there wasn't as much of an appetite to where we're
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: seeing billions of dollars flowing into that. What about the
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: rest of the world, what you guys are seeing, Yeah.
• 3:16
  Speaker 5: So it's important to see this on a relative basis right.
• 3:19
  Speaker 5: So every country that crypto ETF was launched was the
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: most successful launch.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: Of the ETF history in that country.
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: So that happened in Brazil, that happened in Canada, that
• 3:32
  Speaker 5: happened in some countries in Europe. So what we normally
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: see is that there's a big demand for crypto ETFs overall.
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: The US has been basically restricted from investing in crypto
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: through ETFs until early this year, and we saw like
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: a recording flows into bitcoin ETFs specifically in the beginning
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: of the year.
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: So we believe this is a natural.
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: Like demand that the CITF is attending to, okay, and
• 4:03
  Speaker 5: we believe this is only going to increase because it
• 4:06
  Speaker 5: takes some time until the CTF comes to the rand
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: of investment advisors and institutional investors.
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: So this first wave that we call is mostly.
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: From self directed retail investors and hedge funds okay, which
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: is normal to see in other markets as well. It
• 4:22
  Speaker 5: takes one to two years for investment advisors to start
• 4:25
  Speaker 5: to come into to a new ETF, and that's what
• 4:28
  Speaker 5: we expect is going to happen with crypto ETFs over
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: the coming year. So it's been a very successful first year.
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: But we believe this is only the beginning.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: So you look at the number of investment advisors.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: This is something now that we're seeing here in the US,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: both by Blackrock and even Fidelity, of recommendations out to
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: their advisors that are saying you should be looking at
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: this as a long term opportunity. You look at what
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Blackrock has been able to do with their own real
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: world asset and securitizing tokens out there with things like
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: what Securitized has done with them partnership on of course ethereum,
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: and what we might see in our WA's. Is there
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: anything that you guys are doing in that direction?
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: So this is an error that we keep track on. Okay.
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: The biggest opportunity that it's in the market right now
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: is around stable coins and money market funds. This is
• 5:21
  Speaker 5: because it's we've seen like huge demands for a dollar
• 5:25
  Speaker 5: donominated digital wallet.
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: Okay, So we see.
• 5:29
  Speaker 5: Huge demands especially from emerging markets, and the next natural
• 5:33
  Speaker 5: step is if I have a dollar deposit on chain,
• 5:37
  Speaker 5: how can I have a money market fund so that
• 5:39
  Speaker 5: I can get some income on that dollar, right instead
• 5:42
  Speaker 5: of just losing value over time, especially in a high
• 5:45
  Speaker 5: interest rate environment. So we believe that the natural trend
• 5:50
  Speaker 5: towards documization is starting with sable coins, then going to
• 5:53
  Speaker 5: money market funds. Then we can see all the instruments
• 5:56
  Speaker 5: and this type of demand is picking up pretty much
• 6:00
  Speaker 5: in all countries. We've seen this in Europe with the
• 6:02
  Speaker 5: new regulatory regime, the MICAH.
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: We've seen that in Brazil.
• 6:07
  Speaker 5: Brazil is developing a stable coin basically a digital digital
• 6:13
  Speaker 5: central bank, digital currency and a blockchain network to tokenize assets.
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: So this is a.
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: Big trend everywhere we see real world assets being tokenized
• 6:22
  Speaker 5: into blockchains. Hashtax is exploring some of those alternatives based
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: on each jurisdiction.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: So interesting because I know Brazil part of bricks, the
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: fact that they're going in with the CBDC. That'll be
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: interesting on some of the reports that we've been talking
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: about here on the show, because Bricks, of course doing
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: a big meeting right now, could line up into some
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: new monetary shifts. I want to look back at your
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: NASDAK Crypto index. This is just a quick look at
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: some of the assets you're holding within that that's bitcoin ethereum.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Many people will see that Salona XRP top performer here
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: on the index. Cardono link, avax, like coin, et cetera,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: all the way down to Polka dot. Are there plans
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: to expand this index further into some other assets or
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: is this pretty much? Or maybe launch other indexes similar
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: to this one.
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: So this is a great question.
• 7:14
  Speaker 5: So we have multiple products in different geos depending on
• 7:17
  Speaker 5: the regulatory regime.
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: So in Brazil, for instance, we have seven ETFs because.
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: The regulatory regime allows us to have more crypto assets available,
• 7:27
  Speaker 5: more assets within an index.
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: In Europe we have two BTPs.
• 7:31
  Speaker 5: In the u as we're working with the SEC to
• 7:33
  Speaker 5: introduce one new ETF track in the NaSTA.
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: Crypto Index, holding mostly bitcoin and eter So.
• 7:40
  Speaker 5: The NASA Crypto Index is a passive investment vehicle, okay,
• 7:45
  Speaker 5: So it is basically managed by NASDAK. It has a
• 7:51
  Speaker 5: horrorly balanced process in which new assets might come in
• 7:55
  Speaker 5: or be excluded from the index based on very stringent
• 7:59
  Speaker 5: set of rule Okay, So the asset must be supported
• 8:02
  Speaker 5: by regulated exchanges, supported by regulated custogiens, must have a
• 8:07
  Speaker 5: minimum liquidity threshold, and so.
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: There's a set of rules.
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: Just like for then as the one hundred or SEP
• 8:14
  Speaker 5: five hundred index, they need to satisfy those rules in
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: order to be included, and if the asset satisfy the rules,
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: it is included.
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: If they.
• 8:23
  Speaker 5: I'm not satisfying anymore, they can be excluded. So then
• 8:26
  Speaker 5: as the crypto indexes started with five assets and right
• 8:29
  Speaker 5: now it has eleven. So it's an evolative index.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're saying you could grow it even further
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: as as more assets start to flow into I mean,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: I think of things like siuy.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: That's a good example.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: One that's really climbed the ranks, probably meets those criterias.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Su it could be one that drops in there as well.
• 8:46
  Speaker 5: Yes, that's the beauty about a mentodology like this because
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: it's evolative. So if the market evolves to have a
• 8:53
  Speaker 5: lot of different assets with representation with marketcap and with
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: liquidity satisfied institutional grade eligibility criteria, that's the final and
• 9:04
  Speaker 5: as the crypto.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: Index, things can be included.
• 9:06
  Speaker 5: So there's no minimum number of assets, there's no maximum
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: number of assets, there's no caps. It really is designed
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: to reflect the market as it is.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I should say sweet because people get on me
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: all the time about the.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Pronunciation of sweet.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Let's go into some other things that are happening out here,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: and that is ETF options now potentially supercharging bitcoin. You know,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: especially when you look at liquidity and that's a new opportunity.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Many people look at that, and you look at the
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: current state of the US elections. Trump of course leading
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: the pack right now. One of the things that was
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: stated in this article here main drivers right now rising
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: odds of him winning the election and possibly a technical
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: rebound for a bitcoin price. Now we've seen a little
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: bit of movement in bitcoin. We're bumped almost seventy k
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: this week and has retraced a little bit, but we
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: could see some activity here again before the election. How
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: are you guys tracking this here in the US. Obviously
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: bitcoin is a global asset, but the United States does
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: have a fairly significant amount of bitcoin that drives interest,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: at least from investors.
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: What are your thoughts, No, definitely, so the US is
• 10:16
  Speaker 5: the main driver of like bitcoin related events that can
• 10:21
  Speaker 5: be positive for prices right It was back then in
• 10:24
  Speaker 5: the introduction of the bitcoin t apps and the demand
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: that they generated. We're also looking at pub liquidity conditions
• 10:32
  Speaker 5: are going to evolve in the coming months as the
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: fed star's dropping interest rates that can be very positive
• 10:38
  Speaker 5: for prices, and that's irrespective or of who's going to
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: be elected. Okay, we put to the John said, like,
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: we don't see an environment where the trajectory of the
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: dept the US debt is going to become under control,
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: doesn't matter who's elected. So that tends to be a
• 10:57
  Speaker 5: very positive tal win for crypto and coin specifically. And
• 11:02
  Speaker 5: regarding the election specifically, what we're seeing is that the
• 11:07
  Speaker 5: market is generally very optimistic about a regulatory regime for.
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: Crypto if Trump is elected.
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: Okay, So what we respect to happen is is the
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: news about a potential Trump election might be super positive
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: for the prices in the short term, especially for assets
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: for other assets beyond bitcoin, because bitcoin has a very
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: very clear regulatory regime in the US already, but when
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: you look at either have some clarity now there are
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: at ass but when you go to Solana, XRP and
• 11:40
  Speaker 5: all the other.
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: Assets, there's a big uncertainty right now.
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: So I think that they tend to benefit the most
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: from like an open regulatory regime for crypto, and that's
• 11:53
  Speaker 5: what markets are betting for Trump. If Trump is elected,
• 11:58
  Speaker 5: then we might have a regulatory regime but what we
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: believe is that the most important thing is to look
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: at the Congress. So how the Congress is going to
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: be composed in this next cycle? Okay, how does KUN
• 12:09
  Speaker 5: to look into regulation? That's the big important topic to
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: look in the coming weeks.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we've covered that pretty extensively.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: For many of you guys watching right now, go back
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: and watch some of our videos on the congressional hearings
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: around the FIT bill, also around the stable coin regulatory alignment.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: There is a lot happening.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: I don't necessarily kind of in that lame duck session
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: right now coming up, but I don't know that we'll
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: see something happened for the end of the year. But
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: I do hear from a lot of the DC types
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: that we are going to see some pretty accelerated movement
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: in DC on this. I wanted to get your opinion
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: on this. This is gold versus bitcoin etfnflow by the
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: year year one.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can kind of see this is a
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: pretty crazy chart. Let me zoom in on that for you.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: You can kind of see twenty billion right there year
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: one out pacing gold dramatically. My question to you, Samir,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: can this hold that kind of trajectory for growth, there's
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: bitcoin et do bitcoin ETFs continue to pressure into the
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: market like this, What are your thoughts?
• 13:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, we believe so, and basically because there was a
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: lot of demand that's been held up in the last ten.
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: Years for a bitcoin.
• 13:18
  Speaker 5: Okay, now we're living in an environment where ETFs are
• 13:23
  Speaker 5: way more popular than they were twenty years ago when
• 13:26
  Speaker 5: the gold ETFs were introduced. And this is only we're
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: only talking this twenty billion dollars. It's only self directed
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: retail and hedge funds. And when you see like options
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: coming in derivative trading, increasing liquidity, institutional investors, pension funds
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: starting to allocate, this is going to probably keep the
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: momentum forward over the coming years. Of course, at some
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: point it needs to stabilize, right, It's just not we
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: can't just expect those to keep number fasing for sure
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: for the first three years. We believe that this is
• 14:01
  Speaker 5: going to be way more significant than we saw a
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: kind of gold here.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: Well, think about that for the first three years. I
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: mean we're at twenty billion right now.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Year two was barely what three and a half million
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: for gold year three and they really did crack five
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: billion until year four, So this will be an interesting
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: trajectory if now granted year six was the most amount
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: of inflow that we saw with gold, but intriguing that
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: you say that, well, one thing that is going to
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: have to grow with these market is going to be
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: the liquidity. And if you look at one of the things,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: this was bit y Cio talking about stable coins and
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: what they are going to look like in terms of
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: their value one trillion in AUM rising. I think he
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: was saying this was by yeah, right here, by one
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: trillion by twenty twenty six.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: I mean we're literally a.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Year out from that right now. That's a significant amount
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: of potential here. Granted, if we get a stable coin
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: bill in the United States that will probably spur a
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: lot of this growth. Do you think that's a low number.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: He's talking about this being a conservative number. What are
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: your thoughts?
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: So it's a great question.
• 15:07
  Speaker 5: It's very hard to estimate something like this because, like
• 15:11
  Speaker 5: there's so many variables to map out.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: But what we can see is that.
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: Stable coins tablecoin adoption has been growing exponentially in emerging markets. Okay,
• 15:22
  Speaker 5: if you look at markets like Venezuela, Argentina, Nigi Area, Libanon, Turkey,
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: you have a huge stable coin adoption, and that's because
• 15:32
  Speaker 5: it's very hard to access the US dollars in those countries,
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: they have a lot of control.
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: With a stable coin.
• 15:38
  Speaker 5: You just need an Internet connection and you're done. So
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: it's way more easier. It's way easier for payments and
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: for remittances. So that has been a big driver of
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: stable coin adoption. We haven't seen to stable cooin adoption
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: in developed markets in the US in the European Union,
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: and that's because banks can be they just can't do this.
• 16:00
  Speaker 5: And now we have meek up in the European Union,
• 16:03
  Speaker 5: so that's going to start to be effective next year.
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: In January next year, all the big banks we speak to,
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: they are preparing to offer solutions either like stable coins
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: or access to stable coins. They're all working in some
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: kind of infrastructure tool for access to stable coins. And
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: we have potentially a new regulation in US giving clarity
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: for starts starting to adopt stable coins, so that can
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: be a big catalyst for growing this market.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is going to be one of
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: the key intricacies that we have to watch for. Is
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: one the stable coin Bill once it get I think
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: it's the one that will get passed through Congress.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: That of course is going.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: To help a lot of the US banks, But I
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: think also companies are going to start to put this
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: on their balance sheet and start to look at that
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: as an opportunity. That, of course is all going to
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: be benefiting much of the digital asset ecosystem. Listen, Samir,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: We're going to keep an eye on what's happening at hashtags,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: so we'll definitely have you back on to talk about
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: ETFs in the future.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: But thanks for coming in today. We appreciate it.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Paul, you bet excellent.
• 17:07
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  Speaker 1: where I really engage. So it's just at Paul Baron.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: We'll catch you next time right here on tech Path.