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How rich listers are investing in the AI boom · The Money Puzzle

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Australians Money Puzzle podcast. I'm
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: James Kirkby. Welcome aboard everybody. You know, if you look
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: at the main coverage across investment media and all through
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: this year, and indeed on the show all through this year,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the subtext of all investing and investing growth and investing
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: success this year is all about AI, Artificial intelligence. What
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: I wanted to do today was actually have a look
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: at how are the richest and smartest people in our
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: world investing in AI? And if you think about it,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: there is some terrific stories, fascinating scenarios emerging in our markets.
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  Speaker 1: We think of the people like the Atlasian duo Mike
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  Speaker 1: Canon Brooks and Scott Farkhar of Atlasian what they're doing.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: We think of Wes maz who we haven't talked about
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: on the show, but if you don't know, he was
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  Speaker 1: of course of famous rugby league player. He has tripled
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: his bet on AI. He has bet his entire company
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  Speaker 1: really on AI and he's already a rich lister. And
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  Speaker 1: I was thinking, how could we actually do a show
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  Speaker 1: that we would capture the issues that are emerging and
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  Speaker 1: where you might actually find out what the wealthiest people
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  Speaker 1: in the country are doing around AI what we might
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  Speaker 1: learn from it. My guest today is John Stenzel. He's
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: been on the show. He's often on the show once
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  Speaker 1: a year at least when he does the Rich Too
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  Speaker 1: fifty list in recent times just for good measure. He
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: has also written a book which is called Tech Bros.
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  Speaker 2: Is published by HarperCollins.
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  Speaker 1: It's written with my colleague Perry Williams of The Australian
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  Speaker 1: and it's out in the next few days. So I
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  Speaker 1: thought it was the ideal time to have him on.
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  Speaker 1: How are you John?
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  Speaker 3: Very well, James, very busy, as you say, but yet
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  Speaker 3: the book could see the stores and we're very excited
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  Speaker 3: about it.
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  Speaker 1: I bet you are very I bet you are very busy.
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  Speaker 1: But it's very exciting when you launch a book. It's
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  Speaker 1: very exciting at the start, when you do a deal,
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  Speaker 1: and then you're on your own for a long time,
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  Speaker 1: and then it's very exciting when you come out the
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  Speaker 1: other end of the tube, the other end of the tunnel,
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  Speaker 1: and you release it to the world. I think, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: there's so many dimensions to this but and I'm sure
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  Speaker 1: you have no problem. But what I said in the
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  Speaker 1: pre amble about AI sort of been underpinning most of
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  Speaker 1: the action really in the markets, the US markets in particular,
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  Speaker 1: but also in our markets. I mean, we might as
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  Speaker 1: well start actually with the tech bros. As you call them,
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  Speaker 1: Scot Farkharm, Mike cannon Brooks, well known people both on
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  Speaker 1: the Rich List, very high up on the rich list,
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  Speaker 1: and they are best known for their Atlasian venture, which
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  Speaker 1: is listed in the US software company which had We
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  Speaker 1: might think of them as being hit by AI rather
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: than helped by AI, because their share prices were shot
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: to pieces, wasn't it recently? But they've recovered somehow around that.
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  Speaker 1: How did they do that?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely?
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  Speaker 3: First, James, can I just say with the book Tech Bros.
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  Speaker 3: I did not use any artificial intelligence to write it, but.
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  Speaker 2: The body had mentioned of AI.
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  Speaker 3: There's a whole chapter about it, because yeah, I mean,
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  Speaker 3: at Lassian is this incredible success story as a software
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  Speaker 3: as a service company, right, it was one of the prioneers,
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: you know, going back to when the boys started it
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  Speaker 3: in two thousand and two when they were literally out
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: of university. Then, so they built this pioneering company online
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  Speaker 3: by selling software over the internet. You know, it sounds
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  Speaker 3: pretty obvious these days, but it wasn't back then. But
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  Speaker 3: in more and there's share price surges and they become
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  Speaker 3: billionaires and they spend all this money on all sorts
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: of things as we charter. But in more recent times
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  Speaker 3: at Lastin has become under a lot of pressure because
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  Speaker 3: of the rise of AI and the companies like Anthropic
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  Speaker 3: and with their clawed product and what at Lassian Software does,
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  Speaker 3: the Jira and the confluence products that they have. It's
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  Speaker 3: sort of like, you know, it's a team collaboration sort
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  Speaker 3: of software and checking off tasks and that sort of thing.
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  Speaker 3: The big threat this year in particular has been, you know,
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  Speaker 3: the investors questioning will AI just basically make what they
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  Speaker 3: do obsolete?
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  Speaker 2: Will it take over?
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  Speaker 3: So Mike Callerbrooks is in charge about Lassie now and
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  Speaker 3: he's chartering those AI worders.
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  Speaker 2: He's come out pretty.
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  Speaker 3: Strongly and said, look, actually, AI is the best thing
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  Speaker 3: that's going to happen to at Lassie, and I'm not
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  Speaker 3: sure that through.
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  Speaker 1: It's fascinating, he says, that, isn't it? Because they Salesforce
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  Speaker 1: and other companies we're seeing to be victims. Basically, I
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  Speaker 1: can certainly have been seen as a victim of a
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  Speaker 1: potential victim. So so, and he's turned the corner on
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  Speaker 1: that and the staff price is improved. But I wonder
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  Speaker 1: for our listeners, I want to ask you how this
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  Speaker 1: billionaire plays AI. Tell us how he's investing in it.
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  Speaker 3: Well, yes, so I'm obviously out without LASSI, and he's
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  Speaker 3: trying to pivot and help and use use AI for
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  Speaker 3: some of its products, sort of in bed AI and
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  Speaker 3: become you know, a company that's almost like some sort
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  Speaker 3: of at least it has an AI story, right, a
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  Speaker 3: narrative there.
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  Speaker 2: But also personally he's use some of that. You know,
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  Speaker 2: he's made tens of billions of dollars out of at
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  Speaker 2: lass in. Right.
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  Speaker 3: And one of his big investments is a still planning
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  Speaker 3: that it's been going for several years, a thing called
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  Speaker 3: some cable in the Northern Territory. The idea is building
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  Speaker 3: the biggest solar powered solo farm in the in the
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  Speaker 3: world in out back Northern Territory. It was going to
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  Speaker 3: run a cable up to Darwin then over to Singapore
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  Speaker 3: to provide great energy effectively.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: But and this is a good example of what's happening
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  Speaker 3: with AI. He's pivoted towards an idea of building a
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  Speaker 3: massive data center right next to the solar power farm
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  Speaker 3: right so they're in very heavy talks with Anthropic for
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  Speaker 3: Lanthropy to become the Hyperscalar customer for this data center.
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  Speaker 3: We've been writing a bit in Australian over time, so
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  Speaker 3: he personally is.
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  Speaker 2: Going very heavily into AI. So if they can pull
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  Speaker 2: off this deal Foranthropic to sort of effectively underpin a
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  Speaker 2: massive data center in the Northern Territory, he's personally going
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  Speaker 2: to benefit from building that renewable energy farm next to it.
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  Speaker 1: So he's literally, he's literally investing in the data center,
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  Speaker 1: though it wasn't obvious to the casual observer. That's really interesting.
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  Speaker 1: You know, when AI came out first, I don't know,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: two years ago or so. I remember reading very early,
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  Speaker 1: because I like, I read a lot of technology, so
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: more or less on the thematic or the top end
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  Speaker 1: of you like a strategic et cetera, rather than gadgets
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  Speaker 1: per se. But I remember reading about the first AAI
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: on chat GPT of course at the time, and we
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: did some shows on that, and then I found another
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: one called arc ARC and I used this for some time,
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  Speaker 1: and one day I was just noticed that it was
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: owned by at Lasting.
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  Speaker 2: Is that right, Yeah, that's right.
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  Speaker 1: So they were in really early. They actually had a
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  Speaker 1: competing app, ai app to Google and to Perplexity and
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: everybody else, chatchypt really early. So these guys have been
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  Speaker 1: on it pretty fast.
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  Speaker 2: They knew it was coming. But I think they still
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  Speaker 2: got that care.
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  Speaker 3: You know, the core of the business really is the
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: product that I might twenty years ago, and it's evolved
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: over time with that gear and Consolo. So yeah, I've
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: done things that were like competitors to Slack, and also
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: with the Arc as well, have had these bits and
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: pieces and bolt on it and sort of tried to
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  Speaker 3: make it all fit together. I think they're still, you know,
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: grappling with how it all sort of unfolds. Look, they
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: have financially improved that. The other big sort of thing
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  Speaker 3: with them is that they didn't make money for a
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: long time. They lost making billions of dollars almost.
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  Speaker 1: On huge, huge revenue, no profit.
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  Speaker 3: So now the thing is we've got to make a profit.
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  Speaker 3: So and that's I think the market's been finally impressed
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  Speaker 3: with that, and that's why there's been a share price.
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  Speaker 2: Comeback, it's still a long way.
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  Speaker 3: It's still about a quarter of what this peak share
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  Speaker 3: price wasn't the nasdek a few years ago?
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  Speaker 1: Right? So?
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  Speaker 3: But it has you know, it halved earlier this year,
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  Speaker 3: right and there has been a clawback of about thirty
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  Speaker 3: to forty percent, you know, in the last month since then.
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  Speaker 2: So, and it's because of that AI thematic that he's been.
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  Speaker 1: Really it's fascinating, isn't it. So Like you have the
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  Speaker 1: obvious winners from AI, and then you have the incumbents
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  Speaker 1: who opt AI and those who do it most successfully,
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  Speaker 1: maybe the winners in mainstream business. I'm thinking of something
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  Speaker 1: very simple. I come bank for instance, which with the
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  Speaker 1: biggest investors in AI, they are the premium bank. They
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  Speaker 1: have a huge premium as a share. Can they hold
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  Speaker 1: on to it? Well, if they can, it will be
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  Speaker 1: because of AI. Because if you get a bank, the
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  Speaker 1: bank that stands out as the AI winner, they're really
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  Speaker 1: going to steam ahead. Now, Okay. So the other person
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  Speaker 1: I wanted to introduce our listeners to in terms of
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: a really interesting story on AI and how you invest
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  Speaker 1: in it is Wes mas m a s who was
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  Speaker 1: once upon a time a rugby league player and many
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: people may not know this. I mean it's there in
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  Speaker 1: the mass group. It's known, but by no means a
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  Speaker 1: household name. But he had a very traditional big building business,
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  Speaker 1: building materials literally quarries, which he sold to one of
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  Speaker 1: the big you tell us, one of the big cement
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  Speaker 1: companies I think, and with all the money he has
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  Speaker 1: poured it into AI and more recently he has tripled
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  Speaker 1: his bet on that. Tell us the story about Wes Mass,
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  Speaker 1: who he is and how he is really betting the
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  Speaker 1: house on AI.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was supposing pretty recently.
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  Speaker 3: Actually says he's a bit embarrassed about the rugby league
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  Speaker 3: references because he only played a few games for South
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  Speaker 3: and he went around a couple of other clubs as well.
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  Speaker 1: Is that right? I have no idea, Okay, no.
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  Speaker 3: No, but he an it's amazing story, right, he's still
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  Speaker 3: in his mid forties. Yeah, from Dubbo in central New
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  Speaker 3: South Wales, you know, great town up that way.
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  Speaker 2: And you're right, all the.
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  Speaker 3: Photos we've got as in the quarry, you know, like
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  Speaker 3: he's building materials, construction materials and that sort of thing.
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  Speaker 3: So about eighty months ago he meets the guys from Firmus.
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: Now you know, we won't get on a firmas in
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: the Oliver Curtis story, potentially the hottest IPO and the
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: ASEX in you know years.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: It's a big hyph sort of private company at the moment.
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  Speaker 3: And Firmis want to build a bunch of AI data
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: centers around Australia. Where's wants to be the builder of
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: choice for major components of what firmos will roll out
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: around the country. Were's has become an investor in him
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  Speaker 3: in Firmness and as you say, has made a big bet.
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  Speaker 3: He's literally marsk Group Holdings sold off the big construction
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: quarry business one point seven billions.
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  Speaker 2: He's put three hundred.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: Million dollars of the Mars Group Holding's money into Firmness,
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: which is that hottest private company at the moment, said
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: we are all in on this AI revolution. When he
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: first made a hundred million dollar investment, it was about
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: February this year. The share price plunges, then it goes
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: back up. Our colleague Eric Johnson has written that Mars
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: Group Holdings has almost become a proxy for what Firmness
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: is doing at the moment. A list of proxy so
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: I think that's a really good description. So more recently
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: he's put a couple of hundred more million dollars into
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: it has troubled to three hundred million. As you say,
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  Speaker 3: he's put some of his own money into Firmness as well.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: He is all in.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: So it's going to be fascinating to see. So there's
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: a module, a component what he wants to do.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: So this guy had an old fashioned i mean literally
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: regional Australian business of quarries and one year later he's
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: put the profits from the sale of that business into
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: an unlisted AI company, possibly the most hyped unlisted AI company.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: We unlisted company we have seen for many years. It's
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: called Firmas. We have talked about it on the show.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: So just explain why you reckon this Wes Males is
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: doing and what it tells investors about the depth or
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: conviction of some of the richest people in the country
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: about how AI is here to stay. And it's not
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: a fad and maybe it'll it'll sell off and maybe
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: it'll spark a correction on the market, but it's a
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: deep structural change. Just explain to us how someone like
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: Wes Mass what's really going on there are they betting
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: on the future in the way that someone was betting
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: on the Internet in nineteen ninety nine. That year, maybe
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four might have been better. But from an
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: investor point of view, how do you read that?
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  Speaker 3: What you're looking at with ways, it's almost like it's
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: well what it is really, it's like the mining services
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: companies to the miners, right, So he's the picks and
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: shovels guy. He wants to be the picks and shovels
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: guy for the construction of these data centers that will
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: roll out to service and fuel the AI revolution that's happening.
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  Speaker 3: So everything that sort of happens with AI, from your
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: banking apps and.
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  Speaker 2: All that other things.
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  Speaker 3: You have all those sort of memes that people make
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: and you know, the searchers you do on chat, GPT,
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera, powered by data centers. Now, these
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: data centers have to be built. Now, who's going to
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: build them? Or Mars Group Holdings has a major sort
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: of you know contract with firmas when they firmus this
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: hottest ung listed companies.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: They're going to build. This is in Tasmania's.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: Right, you start with, they got big plans in South Australia,
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: they've got plans in New South Wales, They've got plans
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: in They've got plans in Singapore, probably Malaysia as well,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: all around the region. They are the in Vidia company
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: of choice in our region. So in Vidia de firmus
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: into Mars Group Holdings. That's the sort of narrative and
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: the sequence, right, and so yeah, so where's becomes the builder.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: Now there's a modular components that he will build, you know,
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: these components of the data center cheaper than other people
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: will do. Is the is what they're claiming. You know
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: in Orange where one of his subsidiaries, Giently, is situated.
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: So that goes into the firmesst data centers which are
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: powered by Nvidio chips. And the way we go on
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: the AI you know and the AI train. So that's
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: where Wes comes in. So yeah, you know he's a
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: construction guy. He's going to be the builder of the
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: AI super Highway. I suppose you could say.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Gee, that's really something. And of course the picks and shovels,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: every boom has this. It's no secret, folks. I'm afraid
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: there's no secrets at this level in every Boom. There's
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: a theory that if you buy the picks and shovels,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: obviously you can't lose. Okay, so you know in the
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Internet it was buy a telco because you can't lose
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: because the Internet will ride on these companies. Or the
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: origin of the pix and shovels boom is obviously the
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: gold miner. That if you bought the shop and the
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: gold mining town, it didn't matter whether they found gold
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: or not because you got paid for their digging. That's
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: the theory, and it's interesting here we are, you know,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: here'swez Mas rich Lister. When someone bets the house on something,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: it's always fascinating to watch as an investor because you say, okay,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: this person really knows what they're doing. This person has
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: a check record and they are betting big on AI.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: We'll have a break, John, and we'll come back and
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: we look at who else on the rich list is
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: making major plays on AI and what we might learn
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: from them as investors. Back in a moment. Hello, Welcome
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: back to the Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I'm talking to John Stenciled, editor off the Rich to
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: fifty List on the Australian and co author with Perry
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Williams from The Australian of a new book called Tech Bros.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Which is the fascinating story behind Mike canon Brooks and
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Scott Fark. We are concentrating today on how they and
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: other people on the Rich List are actively investing around AI.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: But the book's really interesting, folks, and there's some extraordinary
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: stories about the fact when these two guys came back
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: and they bought two mentions next door to each other,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: one being the old Fairfax mentioned in Pot's point, and
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: they live next door to each other, and it looked
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: like a fairy test story, so that all went wrong.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: If you want to read about that, take a look
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: at tech Pros. It's a hell of a story. I
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: could tell you that most people don't know what but
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: John and Perry have extracted it and articulated it very
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: well in this new book. Okay, so John, in terms
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: of people on the Rich List and playing AI and
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: playing everything around it, before we talk about people that
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: our listeners may not know very well, let's talk about
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Gina Reinhardt, who put an extraordinary amount of money on SpaceX,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: didn't she in a very public fashion. Unusually went in
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: if I got it right, she went in after the
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: IPO like everybody else. She didn't get in early. She
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: wasn't in on the ground floor on that one. And
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: if we're reading the numbers right, she's lost a fair
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: bag of money on that already. But telling you, what
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: do you think she was doing there as a sort
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: of classic witch listen, one of the most richest persons
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: in the country, how is she playing ai?
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she just dropped the lazy billion dollars on SpaceX shares.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: But she's annoyed that that, even with a resilience, I'm
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: sure that is most irritating.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: Well, the Tangkock Prospecting, which is her mining business, right,
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: so that's it's also got a substantial portfolio of stocks
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: now and and ETFs actually it's sold as well, so yeah, absolutely,
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: So there's a combination. Mostly she's invested in mining company shares, right,
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: so what she knows best, what you know?
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: Then there's ETFs, which is that sort of you know,
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: charting the the index or a particular part of whatever
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: she wants to invest in. And then there's a few
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: more speculative things she's actually got shares in Trump media, James.
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: So I mean as you as as you might know,
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: she hangs around at Marle Lago a little bit in
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: at Florida.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: It probably has to media if you want to get
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: a ticket in the door.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure that's probably where she's come across mister
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: Musk as well Elon, and she's followed him into SpaceX
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: and that's so sort of I think that's her bet
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: on the future II the technology future.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Sorry, she does cecil shares as well.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: She clearly likes Elon as a person, as an investor,
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: as a as an entrepreneur, and she's put she's followed
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: into SpaceX as well. Yeah, it was that was probably
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: one of the most hot IPOs on a global scale
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: for a long time and.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: It's it's down at the Yeah, it's been disappointing left.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Line and a disappointing one night because we had about
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: forty thousand Australian investors that we know of, most of
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: them in Comeseck who went into that float and it
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: has its been a bomber basically, and it's below its
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: IPO price, which is definitively unsuccessful. So it just shows
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: you that these are best folks. Now some of them work,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: some of them don't. I wanted to ask you about
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: another company which is Australian. These guys on the list,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: the Iron people, I oorent but they're listing is in
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: the US. It's on nasdak. But tell us how they
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: are making a payper fortune at least out of bi.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is Iron.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: Now, it's quite fascinating that they listened on nasdek than
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: nasdek about five years ago. So now they were a
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: bitcoin minor, but they had they were using data centers
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: or they're building data centers in America, particularly in Texas
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: and also up across the border in Canada and British Columbia.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: So using a renewed energy or the exosmagines, they could
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: negotiate with local energy or things that were being used
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: in factories that were closed down.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: So they built data centers.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: And obviously they do the big pivot writers everyone else
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: has in the last few years into AI. So there's
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: years of shot up spectacularly. So Dannon, Will Roberts x
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Macquarie guys a couple of thirty something still and they're yeah,
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: billionaires on paper, James. So the Iron share price has
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: had a roller coaster ride, but it shot up particularly
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: last year. Now they're fascinating in the way that they
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: have ridden that boom, and they're building more data centers
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: in America, and they had this incredible following online, these
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: fin influencers Fin influences, I think they call it people
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: a chart. What they do on Twitter on sorry X
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: these days is Elon's X. They these huge long things
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: on subseteck about what Iron do. They look at photos
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: online of what's happening in the local police department, or
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: you know, they look at satellite images of how the
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: data center constructions coming along. These guys are like fans
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: of football teams, but they're a fan of Iron the stock.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: So the share price has gone up and down. It's
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: been a roller coaster ride this year, and yeah, I've
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: charted it recently in the Australia. It's quite fascinating the
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: following that these you know, it's almost like AI evangelists
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: have the stock like Iron and does that drive what
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: they do well. They certainly engage with the guys on
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: an investor relations point of view at the very least.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: You know, they've had some of these guys from the
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: Internet come and do tours of the data centers. Now
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: that helps with the coverage at the very least of
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: a company like that. So yeah, I think that's something
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: that listeners will find really fascinating. If you search on
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: Iron on X you find so much stuff. And actually
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: iron individual shareholder volumes were higher than Microsoft and a
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: couple of other big companies like that.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're always like a cult like following interesting.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: So one thing you mentioned, we can't maybe you mentioned
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: that underpinning these AI plays, and in a way it's
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: you can't. You can't have one without the other AI
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: and data centers because for AI to occur, to be successful,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: it's run on data centers and some of the data
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: center stocks or I mean, obviously the top line of
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: AI around the world, in Vidia and Micron, et cetera.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: They are flying because they are at the epicenter of
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: the boom. They literally are the chips that drive the
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: whole thing. The next layer underneath that is the data centers,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: which must be built to as the engine rooms. You'd
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: be like of AI. And you mentioned some companies that
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: are doing very well. You mentioned I run that's doing
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: very well on the show regularly we talk about next DC,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: which is our home. I'm reluctant to say the world
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: champion anymore. They are the domain and AI play on
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: the local market and the dominant AI data center group
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: listed on the AX and they had great support and
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: in fact, we've been talking about that company all the
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: way up from about eight dollars up to currently I
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: think it's thirteen to fourteen dollars. The problem is, it
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: seems to me that they never stop raising money. Their
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: share price never goes up. They haven't gone off for years.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: They're stuck in this trade ridging thirteen fourteen dollars, and
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: there when they do raise a lot of the usual
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: suspects don't come to the party. They have to sort
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: of go around the world and find support for their raising.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: How do you raise Craig Scruggle, who is the CEO
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: of next DC and the public face up. But is
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: he on the list Rich List?
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: No, because now he's not because it shouldn't be.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Shouldn't he should be shooting the lights out and he
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: should have a fortune.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but he doesn't have a massive slot, doesn't have
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: a big slot to the company like some of the
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: other case. It's been listed for years now and you're
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: at the ship ass sort of traded sideways for aquit
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: of holes. It's worth about sixteen billion dollars, So it's
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: nothing to sneeze out, that's for sure.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that's a quite interesting one, isn't it.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: And that it's almost like a quarter and tail for
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: the bubble now, I mean, you crazy, A fascinating Guy's
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: quite He's one of the characters of the AX in
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: a way, you know, like he's a guy's created AI
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: clones of himself and his executive team to interact with
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: each other, and you know, he does all sorts of
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: things like that, so.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: He is an AI evangelist.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: But I think he's also done things that whereas a
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: lot of other companies haven't built things, and there's this
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: great hyperground flim with firmat.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: That's right, I mean, to be fair, it's not all hype.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: It's all there. The infrastructure is there, but he isn't
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: getting the premium that companies that haven't half as much
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: scores on the board. What do you think is happening there?
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, it's a funny one, is it, Because you know,
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: you can go around so many places now and there's
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: next DC Data centers that you see being built. It's
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: literally got so much of an establishment feel to it.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Maybe it's you know, to become like too old and
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: none cool at such a young age still, and when
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: he compared to the next hot sort of trys that
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: come along, given the quality of customers that they have
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: and what they've actually got in the ground, I think
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: in that why it's a little bit surprised and compared
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: to the heart that others. So maybe it's actually like,
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: maybe it's actually more of a proxy for what companies
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: should be.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Valued at rather than what they are being valued.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: That's a really good point. And maybe because he's done it,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: you can't have the blue sky while we don't know
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: what Firmace is going to do. They say they're going
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: to build out the centers all around the world, and
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: they're going to be green powered, and they say all
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: this and that's all fine, and we can't prove them
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: wrong because they haven't done any of it yet, and
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: most of it is hype or at least promotion. So
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: perhaps that's an explanation. And as you say, perhaps if
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: there was a selloff, a ferocious sell off of AI
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: and suddenly sentiments soured and here we are. You know,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: it's August, September. October is the great sell off season
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: in the US, Folks, they come back from holidays in
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: the US, winter is coming.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: Watch it.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: That's when the most dangerous time of the year. But
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: if that was to occur, as you say, maybe nexty,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: you would hold up a lot better than say iron. Okay, Now,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: what I want to do in the final segment, folks,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: is we're going to look at companies we know and
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: the people behind them, the big AI linked fortunes on
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: the rich list and what's happening. I'm thinking of people
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: like Richard White at Wise Tech and other companies you
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: are probably quite familiar with. Back in the moment, Hello,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to The Australian's Money Puzzlive podcast. I'm James Kirby.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: I'm talking to John Stenzhot and we are talking about
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: how the rich listers of Australia are playing the AI
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: boom or in some cases navigating the AI boom, because
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: it's really interesting. We were talking about the Atlassian Tech Bros,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: which is a new book by John and Perry Williams,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: and how they had to navigate AI because they were
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: there they were sold off. And this is what they
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: call it, very awkwardly phrasedaas apocalypse last year where people said, oh,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: those companies are going to be shot to pieces by AI.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: They've kind of proved that wrong and they've had some
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: strong results of late they're harnessing AI. Then we have
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: people like we say, we talked about Gina ryan Hart
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: who is in and basically involved in her way through
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: on the SpaceX and the extraordinary story, and I wanted
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: to get you to hear that story. If you didn't
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: know that story about wes Masmaas which is a listed company,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: buy it on the AX. And as John was saying,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: it's a proxy basically for AI, maybe a better proxy
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: than some of the other proxies that have emerged. And
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: we have Craig Scroggle of course, and the next DC
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: group now John, people who in terms of household ingres
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: people in the two that we know very well. Of course,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: one is Goodman, Greg Goodman, who is the head of
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: the Goodman Property Group, a stayer ofever there was when
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: a veteran and the King really of the r E
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: I T the property trust listed property trust in Australia.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: It's the most highly raised trust by a mile. It's
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: the sort of premium stock. And one of the reasons
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: that it has the premium is that it was early
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: in wasn't it on AI? Could you tell us a
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: little about Goodman who he is and how he's playing
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: the AI and how an investor could use that perhaps
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: as an avenue into this space.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: Great Goodwin's been a billionaire for a long time on
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: the on the Richard of fifty bisold because of the
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: warehouses really that he built in business parks around that.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: But that's in more recent times.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: You think of those big business parks that you know
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: what it's saying in the suburbs or near Sydney Airport
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: for example.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: And they kind of they backed into the online retailing boom.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right, so full of you know, those offices
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: and a lot of retail warehouses and so on and
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: so forth.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: But now he's building he wants to build more data
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: centers in those places.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: So he's really talked up the data center, you know,
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: building sheds basically for the data houses the data center.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: So again, where whereas whereas where's mars is helping build
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: that with you particular elements to it. You know, greats
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: providing the sort of sheds around it, I suppose if
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: that makes sense, so the shells of it, and you know,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: and renting out the space so it becomes it's like
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: a property.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: It's clearly a property player there.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: It's a property play on AI and hey, no coincidence
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: said it's the most expensive property player on the market.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's done very well in that regard.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: So that's so I think, if you know, you say,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: these companies that have had these traditional elements to them,
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: but once I start talking about AI when they do
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: their half year results or full year results or any interviews,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: you know, people sort of put their ears up and take.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: More notice into absolutely and fund managers do that. There's
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: there was a comical story the other day that all
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: the fund managers, now many of them at least use
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: AI right two for the company presentations. They don't sit
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: there and listen to them anymore. The AI basically listens
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: to the company presentations and maybe they listen to forty
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: or fifty of them, and then they give a distillation
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: of what those companies present were to the fund managers.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: So the fund managers don't have anybody sitting down listening
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: to a four hour call anymore or to our coal.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: But it turned out that if you mentioned AI, the
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: more you mentioned AI, you know, the better you went
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: the day after your results. So McCrary mentioned AI I
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: think it was McCrary eighty two times in their presentation
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: because someone had told them that these AI bots were
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: listening for the world. That's how it works, that's our world.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: That's okay, that's how it works. As long as you
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: know how it works, folks, And that's what makes it interesting.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Why is tech Richard White, who is terribly well known
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: for all the wrong reasons, but he also built probably
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: you know, arguably the most successful software a company listed
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: on the ESX at least and should have been a
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: proxy again in this area. They got sold off real hard,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: just like at Lassian did. Has quite navigated as well
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: as the tech bros.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Yet certainly on that trajectory Rod.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: So what he's done block out last ye and he's
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: come out and said AI is going to be great
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: for my company. But then he's sort of gone further
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: and cut a big chunk of the workforce. It's pretty
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: controversial in that way, and said, look, you know, we
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: don't necessarily need software developers and engineers and that sort
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: of thing.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: AI can do it for them.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: And by the way, AI doesn't complain and doesn't ask
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: for a pay rise and all this sort of other stuff.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: So you know, the market loves the job cuts sort
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: of story at a way, doesn't it takes that?
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: So and he's saying, you know that making acquisitions that
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: will be more AI focused for Wiseek, which is basically
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: all about freight forwarding and tracking cargo and soon for companies.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: So that's the way he's doing it.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: He is going full on in terms of the operational
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: part of the business and embracing it and also the
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: software that his company will offer and embedding AI to
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: that as well.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: So that's the way he's doing it.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: Look, the share price is recovering, but it's a very
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: choppy ride for Richard, who has to be fair, has
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: credit an amazingly successful company the time, you know, made
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: very profitable. You know, he's made him a billionaire several
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: times over and you know, one age she's sort of
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: be in the top ten of the riches to fifty
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: because of that. It has come off, but it is
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: still you know, substantially big company. And yeah, again he's
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: trying to stay in charge of the company because of
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: you know, there's been a lot of controversy.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: He's been holding on tight. Yeah, that's right.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: It's the biggest share.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: And in writing that, I ard to keep charting his
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: path as a as a company.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: We'll put that to one side and leave him for
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: another day. I wanted just before you go over this
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: one last rich list duo who have an interesting story
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: with AI and folks you may know, I'm sure you
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: do know the Canva group and they you might tell
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: us down the duo, the couple. They're very high up
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: on your list. They've been an extraordinary technology success in graphics,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: computer graphics. They were due to list. I see, I
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: see that their unlisted stock is been sold at a
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: substantial discount. Now did I see? That's twenty percent? And
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: the last time, how do you think tell us who
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: they are for us of all and tell us what
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: do you think would happen?
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: Melanie Perkins and Cliff old breakfits at a husband and wife
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: team with Cameron and there's another billionaire on the rich
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: is two fifty. Mel and Cliff are inside of our
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: top ten. Right, that's how wealthy and Pulpwork become Cat
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: and Canvo had this US forty two billion dollar valuation
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: right through the whole series of raisings. It's been talked
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: about as the hottest IPO for years, all those reasons
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: this software business people were using, and now the question
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: is like, will it get called out? Has its left?
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: It's run too late? Should have had it floated a
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: year or two ago. You know, they're insisting that they'll
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: keep going and they may not need a float one day,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: but it was going to be this amazing exit for
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: all these incredible vcs that have got into it, and
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: as you say, trading on the secondary market now twenty
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: nine percent less than what that valuation is officially, so
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: to speak. So the question is have they missed the
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: boat entirely because of what's happening with AI? Is Iour
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: coming to you know, basically make them up so late?
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: And will it be a story that never was in effect?
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, God, that's really interesting. It's so so extreme. The
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: winners will be really big, and as you fointed out
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: this morning, John, there will be losers too. And perhaps
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: the way forward for investors beyond speculation is actually the
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: notion of the picks and shovels. It has worked many times.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: It certainly rides you through the boom. You don't shoot
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: the lights out, neither do you fall through the floor.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: And it's a fascinating way into the topic of our time.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: I would have to leave it there, John, that was
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: great to talk to you. As always, best of luck
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: with the book.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: Thank you, James, I really appreciate it.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: That was John Stenzel Folks, editor of The Rich two fifty,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: the Rich List on the Australian and co author with
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Perry Williams of Tech Bros. Which is the story of
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Mike Cannon Brooks and Scott Farkhar, the Atlasian duo, who,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: as the book will tell you, have an extraordinary business story,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: but an extraordinary story too. You know, there's two guys
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: who built a business, went the whole way, were obviously
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: so such symbiotic sort of duo that they bought mansions
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: next door to each other. Can you believe this? Next
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: door to each other on Sydney Harbor, so they could
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: sort of kids could play together and all that, and
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: then it all went off the rails, and of course
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: they are no longer in operation in the fashion that
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: they used to be, but to take a look at
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: that book when you get to see it, or order
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: if you can. Okay, thanks for listening, Keep the emails
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: rolling the money puzzle at the Australian dot com dot Au.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Leah Sam mcgloup. Talk to
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: you soon.