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The Power of Storytelling in Business with Rich Bornstein · Better Together

• Shawn Sundsvold: Hey everyone and welcome back to Better Together, the podcast where we share the real stories, the hard-earned lessons and practical insights from founders and leaders to help you grow your business. I'm your host, Sean Sunsvold, here with my partner in business and in life, Kelly Sunsvold. Today we're diving into storytelling, specifically how to tell the right story for your brand with someone who has spent his entire career at the highest levels of the industry. Our guest is Rich Bornstein, founder of Bornstein Media. He's held leadership roles at places like Warner Brothers, Paramount Pictures, and the same, you know, Goldwyn Company, helping shape campaigns seen by millions and contributing to award-winning work. has spent his lifetime behind the camera crafting stories, and across hundreds of projects, one pattern kept showing up. The work that truly moved people wasn't always the biggest or the most polished. It was the work where everyone involved could clearly articulate why it mattered. Today, Rich helps founders and leadership teams find that clarity first. He's here not only to share insights from his incredible career, but to give you the practical ways to think about and tell your brand story more effectively. So Rich, thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited for our conversation today. Rich Bornstein: thank you for having me. That introduction was great. I'm trying to figure out who you're talking about there, but ⁓ I guess some of that was probably me. But no, no, thank you. ⁓ excited to be here with you two guys and thank you for thinking enough of me and my work that you want to hear what I have to say. So ⁓ always fun to do that. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, you know just looking over your career and everything you've been a part of let's let's let's go backwards a little bit I want you to take us back you started as a journalist, you know and as a journalist you can do You know, you can focus on News you can focus on you know, there's so many different things you can focus on but what made you really get into the idea of storytelling? Rich Bornstein: Well, I you I was a sports writer. know, people, people you know, ⁓ tend look down their nose at sports. But the reality of it is some of the most creative journalism going on ⁓ when were actually a thing, you know, was happening on the sports page. I mean, you ⁓ know, even college, we were the first ones to get, you know, to get the computer system going on. You know what I mean? And, you know, I got to the, when I got my first professional job, that, you know, they gave us the technology first. And the stuff really comes out ⁓ of you have to make it interesting. The days of, you know, ⁓ when was into it, the days of who, what, where, why, and your lead were gone. You needed to come up with an angle. So that's where they, you know, that's where the creativity comes in. How are you going to grab somebody? How are you going to make them, how are you going to make them, attention to what you're writing. And then the other thing, which was not the most glamorous thing that I did, but I ⁓ it helped give me some foundation. I was assigned to do three feature stories a week on, I don't wanna say off beat, but they were like, it was for another section of the paper, because they wanted to get the advertising stuff. So they wanted me to write these stories so people from outside of the ⁓ area feel they were being appreciated. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Rich Bornstein: I mean, those angles are tough when you're writing about the scorekeeper, you know, that's never, you know, that's been doing it for four years. You know, the son of somebody who was famous, who's now coaching, you know, high school somewhere. You got to look hard and deep, you know, into how to find angles and make it compelling. You know, you don't just, you just don't write about it. So that's really what helped shape who I am. And I mean, yeah, there was some fun stuff. I mean, I got to cover Mary Lou Retton and, you know, Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Very cool. Rich Bornstein: gymnastics and you know in 84 which was arguably one of the more I mean what's I mean I hate to say this now but you know when I the guy that was the US national team coach and now that we know what's going on with Bella Carolli behind the scenes you know maybe take some of the some of the you know the shine off of it but at the time it was pretty gosh darn exciting you know and and you know covering gymnastics it was it was fun you know we were Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Rich Bornstein: I felt like I was doing something special, so it was good. And then from there, I went to the studios, which was Sacrilege. I you didn't leave journalism to go do PR and marketing. You just didn't. And if you did, you were a sellout. So ⁓ did a whole number on ⁓ head. ⁓ I'm going to still be a writer, which I was. I did some freelance stuff, but... Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Rich Bornstein: Once you get ensconced in it, there's no way you can continue to do it. I mean, unless that's all you're gonna do is 24 seven, work, work, work. I mean, if you're gonna have any kind of life, so. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, working 24-7 doesn't sound appealing at all. ⁓ Although ⁓ whole adage is, ⁓ quit your 9-5 job so you can work 24-7 as an entrepreneur. Definitely that. so... Rich Bornstein: No There's definitely, yeah, but it's different because you're working for yourself. You don't need to sit there. You don't need anybody. I mean, like I always tell people, like, you know, where's your motivation? I'm doing it for me and my family. Like, what motivation? What more motivation do I need? Sure, there's days when I when I wish I had more energy, but it's for you now. You know, you're not, you know, you're not just saying I'm working for the man. No, you're working for you. So it's a whole different mindset. Kelly Sundsvold: Totally. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, whole different mindset. Totally agree. Yeah, so you've worked for some of the biggest names of entertainment. You named a few for like the gymnastics side of things. What did these environments teach you most people wouldn't expect? Rich Bornstein: Well, I mean, think this is what I've kind of felt as the through line of my career is what's the angle? What makes it interesting? It's not always the subject. It's what is it about it that brings the humanity to it? Okay, so that really is what taught me a lot. mean, that fear, the fear of, if you don't hit, If you don't hit send right now, your story's not gonna make the morning paper. So you hit send ⁓ give you two minutes to read it one more time and you hit send. ⁓ it goes there. So that kind of teaches you, you better be on your game, okay? You better be on your game or look, other will go, okay, fine, print the paper without my ⁓ story at the next day. ⁓ I'm Virgo and I'm a perfectionist. Not something that I was ever gonna live with. You know what I mean? ⁓ Kelly Sundsvold: You Rich Bornstein: You know, so I did that. That's really the key, I think, is finding an angle. have an article sitting on my wall from John Gregory Dunn, you from back in the day. John Gregory Dunn being the husband of Joan Didion. ⁓ And, you he's he was quite accomplished in his own time. And he said, you know, sports writers become, ⁓ you know, search for an angle. And this is back, you know, this is back in the 70s. And because it had switched from those things. And I kind of carry that with me throughout everything I've done. What is the angle? What is the compelling part of it? What is the humanity to it? And if you don't have that, to me, think you got nothing. So that's really what it is. It's funny that you say I've done all this stuff. So I ⁓ a story because I helped launch a Sundance channel. So I was talking to somebody and I said, ⁓ you know, I'd always hoped that I'd ⁓ Robert Redford. and I went to the same high school. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah Rich Bornstein: So when I finally met him, we had a very interesting conversation. so we talked about our experiences of going to that same school and they were kind of miserable for both of us. Because we moved from one part of the city to the other. And he went around the office going, do you guys meet Rich? He went to high school together. And about 10 people came in my office that day and said, oh, you went to school with Bob? That's pretty cool. And I said, yeah, we were really tight. We were 25, 30 years apart, but. We were the best of friends. It's like, come on. Anyway, I told that story and the person on the other end said, Rich, that's a great story. Could you answer the question for me? said, yeah, sure. She goes, who's Robert Redford? Okay, check please. So I realized, okay, I gotta watch it. Listen, I still remember when I was at Goldwyn, we helped launch Julia Roberts' career. And it was just like, wait a minute. Kelly Sundsvold: ⁓ gosh. Rich Bornstein: Julie's not young anymore, you know what mean? If I'm not young anymore, she, you So like, I gotta watch my references, know, Kenneth Branagh. He's not young anymore, you know what mean? It's just like the names, you ⁓ have to realize ⁓ a whole new generation out there and maybe they don't really appreciate, you know, the fact of ⁓ you lived. I because I ⁓ ⁓ with journalists and telling me stories about the, you know, the old days ⁓ you know, Hollywood and, you know, behind the scenes stuff that they didn't print back in the day. To me, those were the fascinating stories. You know what mean? Those were incredible. I I worked with Charles Durning, famous character actor. I wish I had a tape recorder. And he was not mean. He just had great observations. And I kept thinking, I'm gonna remember, I'm gonna remember. And of course I don't. I remember little tidbits of stuff. But, you know, it's just a natural inquisitive, know, an inquisitiveness. Like, okay, what's the story behind the story? That's always the one that I've been interested in. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Rich Bornstein: And maybe that's from being a journalist. Ask the question, always tried pride myself on figuring out that question to show that I had done my research and get somebody to think. And I always loved it when somebody looked at me and said, you've done your research. That to me gave me pride. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah, and I think that leads into one of the questions I had and it was a it's a quote you said, you know, it's across hundreds of projects. One pattern kept showing up and that was the work that truly moved people wasn't the biggest or the most polished. It was the work where everyone involved could clearly articulate why it mattered. And I'd love to have you kind of unpack that statement for us a little bit and how you kind of came to that conclusion. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Rich Bornstein: Well, again, it seems like my career is blessed with, you know, I've never been blessed with huge budgets. I can say that honestly. When I was at Warner's, they, you know, they, and I was on the TV side, they were the stepchild. That was a feature film studio. So I had to be creative in how I did things, because we were on the TV side. I mean, obviously it changed after a while, and they realized how much money they could make in TV, but we were still kind of like the stepchild. So I needed to know why it mattered, not what we were doing, but why it mattered. so that's really followed me ⁓ that I've been. Paramount, we were going through a down slide. they, was issue. I mean, they actually fired ⁓ half my while I was there, and I was only there a year. And they fired, they walked in one day and said, bye. ⁓ Goldwyn, ⁓ Goldwyn is very famous story that I tell about Sam ⁓ all the Kelly Sundsvold: Wow. Rich Bornstein: I came out of nowhere to get us three Oscar nominations for the Madison King George. And Sam said, what are we to do now, Rich? And he says, I mean, he says that to me. And I said, we're to have to some money, Sam. He said, I don't think so. We're going to take advantage of the free publicity. So again, we came out of nowhere. I literally, I got that campaign together in a month and I figured we're going to be celebrating. Yeah, well, know, Rich, let's break it out there a little bit. wasn't going to happen. again, when I kept coming back to and this, then I translated this to business, everybody tells their what everybody's telling their what I can do this for you. can do that for you. can do this for you. Why should they pay attention to you? Kelly Sundsvold: you Rich Bornstein: There's no reason to. The reason that people are gonna pay attention to you is your why. What is your special sauce? What is it that unique perspective that you give, that you bring to the table every day? When you turn on that computer, you get on a call, or you go see somebody, or whatever it is that you're doing, what is that special sauce that you give? And I realized, okay, that's the through line here. That's what motivates me. That's what I think. People do business with people that they like. When you have that emotional connection, then all of a sudden they want to find out what you do. But it's only after they like you. It's only after they fall in love with you. I mean, again, there's exceptions. If you have this project that's made a hundred gazillion dollars, of course they're going to want to be part of you. But how many of us have that luxury? We don't. I mean, we don't. They don't know the backstory. They don't know of that little success that you had. Kelly Sundsvold: Right. Rich Bornstein: was destined for failure. They don't know that. They just know that, you know, that it's not a household name. But you know in your heart that you busted your hump and you got it to where it was and you feel pretty good about it. You know what I mean? But you have to tell the why. It's not focusing on your what to me is a lose-lose. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, the why is everything Was there a specific moment that that why really showed through? I'm possibly even clicked for you Rich Bornstein: Well, you know, it's so weird because I kept thinking that what I did in my past was gonna be the driving force. And it really took somebody from the outside to say, you realize what you did? Like years ago, I did a piece for Adobe. I was just happy to be hired to do a piece for Adobe. was dealing with an intermediary. So I wasn't, you know, so, you know, basically they were shifting their model from brick and mortar to subscription and they were shopping After Effects, so made it part of every editor's arsenal. So I went on and talked to this Oscar winner, Rob Legato, about how he created world-class effects using After Effects and Photoshop for a little movie called The Aviator. And he said... Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Rich Bornstein: You know, you'd think the Martin Scorsese movie would have a lot for special effects. He said, you'd be wrong. And they shot my piece around the world to create their new model. Okay? I looked, so I was just going, great. Did the check clear? That's great. Fantastic. Yeah, I a piece for Adobe. ⁓ it was years later, someone said, ⁓ know that that piece helped ⁓ the software industry. And I said, it did? Kelly Sundsvold: you Rich Bornstein: You know, it was literally years later before I realized the impact of my, I mean, let's not, I'm not gonna be ridiculous, but it was just, you know, it kind of created this whole new model and, and, know, and that was part of it. So, it's, it's just, it's an, it's just a way of, of saying, okay, it's, it's not the work all the time. It's why it's the why. And that just came, came home and I've changed my positioning a hundred times. Shawn Sundsvold: you Rich Bornstein: I mean, literally I have changed it a hundred times about, I've done this, I've done that, know, Emmy nominee, you know, Oscar, you know, all this kind of stuff. And I realized it doesn't matter. What matters is, you know, what, what do you, how do you feel? What do you think? What's your leadership qualities? Why should people pay attention to you? Then, then it all came into focus. So that's, you know, it was, I mean, I hate to say it, but it was probably a series of setbacks. It was being ignored every time I'd redo my site and I go, this is it. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Rich Bornstein: This is the winner. And then, you know, and I would be ignored. And, you know, but, you know, I'd send people some stuff and then, ⁓ okay, great, man. Yeah, we don't call us, we'll call you. And I realized I had to change my focus. And that focus was from the what to the why. And it's not about the experiences that I've had, it's how they fit into, are you gonna help somebody else? nobody ⁓ you know, I mean, I care. You I met, you know, with some of the people that I've met. Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Rich Bornstein: Sure, it's like a footnote, right? Some of the people I've had to have get to have one-on-ones with, but it's more about the why. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah, and I love that, you know, in connecting that and now you're working, you know, a lot with founders, businesses, leadership teams and helping them craft their own stories, right? is one of the most common storytelling mistakes that you see that businesses are making when they're trying to get their story out there? Rich Bornstein: Well, just what I said, it's exactly, it's exactly, we do this. We could do this for you. We can do that for you. We can do this. That's the most common mistake that everybody makes. to cut through the noise and the clutter, you have something special. And it's not what. It's really, you know, when I was, well, okay, there's a way of taking it. I'm gonna edit myself here. ⁓ Because it like every time you go to any of these, ⁓ conferences or whatever, everybody has the Tony Robbins moment. I was living in my car and I was down on my luck and then the light bulb went off and then I stopped living in my car and hey, buy this real estate from me. got this program. ⁓ ⁓ just like, ⁓ okay? That's formulaic. ⁓ it worked for Tony Robbins, God bless him. You know what I mean? I've never met the man, that's fine. But ⁓ of us have this story in them. All of us know what motivates people to do what they do. mean, mine, again, I realized everything that I do is about positioning. It's about telling a story. That's what excited me. That's what excites me to this day. What is the story behind the story? the that I'm used to maybe asking an uncomfortable question, mean, maybe couching in in a way so it doesn't feel that, ⁓ but want somebody to start thinking. That gives me my secret sauce. go into a room ⁓ I tell this story a lot. So I was hired for this project and I'm clearly the outsider. I won't go into the details of why I was an outsider, but I was definitely the outsider. Everyone, was kind of a closed shop. so I what it was and the first thing that came up was some sort of sponsorship type thing. And I said, if I have anything to say about it, that thing's got to go in the back and not the front because it becomes a commercial rather than something that they should pay attention to. But I'm in a room, know, 35 people, you all excited, patting the guy in the back going, ⁓ what a great job you did, the rest of this stuff. And, you know, so I'm definitely the outsider. So everyone said, do you have anything, anybody got any questions? So I'm, you know, kind of like this, you know, don't call on me, call on me, don't, you know, like. I was really nervous because I figured number one, I needed the gig. Number two, I was highly recommended. Number three, the last thing I want to do was go in and piss somebody off. Like, you know, like, you know, by saying something wrong. he said, yeah, Rich. And sheepishly, you know, said, well, you know, you have that card that comes up. ⁓ Right. said, ⁓ it of takes the focus away from what they're about to see to why is that card there? Is there any chance you could move that to the back? And he looked at me, there was that pregnant pause where you're going, okay, out. And he looked at me and he said, great idea, consider it done. you know, I was lucky, okay? He very, if the guy had been an egomaniac, he might've said, that's the most insulting thing that I've ever heard in my life. You know what I mean? Who invited you? So, but it turned okay. And I realized, again, that follows me around as well. You know, I do wanna know. Kelly Sundsvold: you Rich Bornstein: mean, when I watch documentaries and there's obvious questions there that don't get answered, it me, you or more. mean, it's just, I mean, read, ⁓ I mean, I'm getting little bit ridiculous, but I mean, I just watched the Jerry West documentary that's on Amazon. Well, I grew up idolizing Jerry West, you know, like Jerry West was, you one of my heroes growing up here in LA. There were obvious questions and they hint at it. You know, they go, ⁓ you know, Cooper says, I want to clear up some of the, ⁓ you know, about him. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Rich Bornstein: but they never it. You know what I mean? They don't really, ⁓ mean, yeah, they talk about the fact that he was depressed and all the rest of the stuff. Okay, fine. But where the misconceptions? Where are those natural follow-ups? So that's just kind of the way my brain works. And I think in business, you have to be that person. I mean, it's obviously hard for us to step out of ourselves. You have to have somebody on your team that will ask those of you, that will ask the hard questions. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. you Mm-hmm. Rich Bornstein: that'll make you think. If you're just reading from your press release and your own positioning statement, that's what you're gonna get, nothing. You're gonna get a positioning statement. But if say, is really matters to me and this is why, then ⁓ you a chance of people perking up listening to you. Kelly Sundsvold: so ⁓ of the things that you work with people kind of springboarding off of what you just said is called the clarity framework. So tell us a little bit about that, but also let's talk through a couple of the key questions that you ask ⁓ clients immediately change how they may think in that moment. Rich Bornstein: I mean again, I mean it's people say ⁓ yeah, we got a you know, we got to do a you know video I Bring the word story to it. Usually, you know they say yeah, we got to do something. got to do a video. We got a ⁓ know, we have to Publicize so we want to focus on this so so obviously something there but I Want to know I want to know what insights are we building on? There's three questions. I ask. Okay, ⁓ what insights we building on? again Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Rich Bornstein: Not what, I want to hear about the insights. ⁓ what's the core here. Okay, that's number one. Number two, ⁓ what's job that this video has to do? ⁓ reaction you want from your audience? I mean, again, videos are video. Like I hate when people tell me, do you have any video? Yeah, I'm on this podcast and ⁓ it's there. I'm here to tell you. it's your family, chances are they're not gonna watch a 45 minutes ⁓ to get to your core. mean, you know what I mean? That's not a way to really talk about your business. To sit there and go, yeah, I was there. It's like, you have have a purpose for what you're doing. And then the other, this is really the other, the third question is, what do you actually believe? Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Rich Bornstein: not what you're spewing out from the mission statement, okay? What do you actually believe? And why do you believe it? And then once you get to those things, then we can determine, okay, we have a realistic way of accomplishing it and what the best way is to do it. But that's really what the Clarity Framework is. It's like answer those basic questions and then we're ready to go. If you can't and... and you're going to speak and you know, you're just going to like, look, we've seen the politics takes over our lives. I mean, when people go to stump speeches, what happens? You immediately click off. Who cares? Right? You know, and then that's that's throughout history. I mean, now it's probably more so. But, know, you you're going to I promise you this two cars in every garage or whatever it is. But days are gone. So you make promises all you want. But if you speak from the heart. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Rich Bornstein: The first time I noticed it was when Ronald Reagan was debating Jimmy Carter. And Reagan was an actor. So, know, Reagan shook his hand, and Reagan was personable, and Carter was all, you know, was all, ⁓ you know, intense and whatever. And Reagan was just, you know, and even though you may have disagreed with what he said, there you go again, Jimma. I mean, you know, he was just talking like a normal person. And that's what resonated. And so you take those philosophies, You take principles of, I always tell people, we're just having a conversation here. ⁓ I'm interviewing them and the camera's rolling, you're looking at me, just having a conversation. That's it. I want people to think that they're eavesdropping on a conversation, not a stump speech. And that's kind of a key point too. And even for my own interviews, because I hate admit it, I hate it when I have to record my own interviews. I some people are fantastic at it and God bless them. I mean, they can talk for 10 minutes and I don't see one morph cut and I'm going, whoa, they can actually sit there and not stumble and not stutter and actually make sense. And if they do stumble or stutter, they're able to cover it up. I'm not blessed with that. I mean, everything I tell my clients is stuff that I can't do. I recognize, okay, I got a five-head as opposed to a forehead. Stop looking at yourself. You know what I mean? Like, okay, it's like you can't, you you can turn back the clock. I edit myself when I'm speaking. It's just like, which again, no, say what you got to say. If you want to re-say it, then that's fine. And so what I do is I have, you know, one of my editors generally interview me and then you said this, answer that, you know, and then again, it's eavesdrop on a conversation. And that's when I'm most comfortable. I don't like just sitting here looking at the camera and you know, if I've scripted my bullet points, it just, never feels right to me. And of course we're all of our own critics. We're our own worst critics. So, really admit that, but that's the absolute truth. I do not enjoy turning on my own camera. ⁓ in I wouldn't even do it except people say, okay, if you're gonna say this, then you better talk about it you better be on camera saying it. So, okay. So I've learned to force myself to do it, but it's not something that I enjoy doing. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. I that. I was in radio for a long time and to this day I still, like I listen to myself on a microphone, it still like sends shivers down my spine and it's like, oh, I really don't like the way I sound. And I did radio for five years. I'm used to it and I still hate the sound of my voice on a microphone. So talk. Rich Bornstein: I mean, as long as Kelly doesn't say that you have a face only a radio can love, as long as that doesn't happen, then you are good. Shawn Sundsvold: ⁓ She may have said that a couple times, but who knows? So let's take what you were talking about there and kind of bring it down a step further, right? So, you know, we're talking about being as a business owner, being authentic, right? And then you've got somewhere in there that you have to tie in strategy in the storytelling, right? So how do you balance those two things in a way that really resonates? Kelly Sundsvold: ⁓ gosh, no, no. Rich Bornstein: Well, I mean, it's funny, I'm working on something right now about a topic that's, you know, that's kind of, about data. And it's not the sexiest topic in the world. ⁓ And you know, how do you make that interesting? And so the Balancing Act comes with, this is why we do what we do, this is who we are, okay? And then there's the elephant in the room. What is that elephant in the room? And I asked the question, like, are you the villain here or, you know, are you the hero here? Because a lot of people, because of what you do, are going to think, you know, that you might be on the wrong side of things. Get them to answer that head on. And I got some great answers. And they were truthful. And they actually cut it off right there. They said, yeah, you could look at us as, sure, could look at us like the villain, but are you favor of XXXX? course, everybody is. therefore we're making those things happen because of our work. So therefore, how can we be the villain if we're making your world a better place because of the work that we do? It's over, right? Then ⁓ addressed it. ⁓ haven't ⁓ ignored it. You've actually said, this is what makes us special and don't run away from the hard stuff. We actually know that this is a question. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Mmm. Rich Bornstein: And we're gonna answer it. Again, it's not that heavy handed. mean, you know, but that just kind of gives you an example why it is. And also just in your own mind you think things are boring, you know, that you think they're not sexy, that they're kind of a necessity. The reality of it is ⁓ that ⁓ some stuff in there. Again, again, I'm trying to tell a two or three minute piece. I like two minutes or less. Sometimes it goes to three, great. But there are nuggets. Everybody's got the nuggets there. And it's in their philosophy, in their lives or whatever. And those are the moments that ⁓ it into, to your question, those are the moments that ⁓ turn into something special. it is balancing act. ⁓ And sometimes a little harder. When people don't wanna talk about it, they can't articulate it and you're going, ⁓ man. How am I gonna do this? But most of the time you find a way. would say 99 times out of 100 I find a way. Well, maybe 100 out of 100. I find something. why am I there? Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Right, right, exactly. So is there, we're kind of getting close to wrapping up here. Is there a question that you wish founders would ask themselves before investing in video? Rich Bornstein: Yeah, yeah, ⁓ most, I mean, the most fundamental question is, why we who we are? Why, what makes us special? That's the question that founders ought to ask. That and ask the people around them. If they're a small company, great. Maybe they don't have that many people around them. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Rich Bornstein: Let them ask you the hard questions. So you again, you're out there and you're being authentic. What is the authentic of ⁓ you do what you do? Not not something that you that you've memorized, not something that you've heard somebody say on TV. I mean, I remember when I was a sports writer, I'm back, but, you know, everyone sounded like Howard Cosell when he was on Monday Night Football. And the athletes that I was, the young athletes, academics important to me. Nobody talks like that, right? But that's what they said. Why? Because Howard Cosell was saying it on Monday Night Football. ⁓ And now course there's other people, I'm sure it's the same way. They're learned, they're rehearsed, they're ⁓ just that they've heard. So that's really what I try to get at founders. Like throw away that nonsense. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Rich Bornstein: Throw, you know, throw, like even when you're in a board meeting, oh, we're, you know, we're gonna work hard to make this company strong. I mean, everyone's going, yeah, great, okay, perfect. Yeah, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna do this so, you know, our profits can go up. Okay, great. But no, instead of saying, look, we have some challenges now. We have an affordability crisis in this country. It's, you know, it's not imagined, it's real, okay? So here's how we're gonna, here's what we're doing to combat that. to keep our bottom line as close as we can and it so ⁓ maintain our success. That's legitimate. Then people around you are gonna go, okay, he's acknowledging that it's not business as usual, he or she. ⁓ acknowledging that it's not business as usual. You just don't sit there and go, I'm here, I've arrived, okay, there we're gonna be successful. That's just different philosophy and a different way of looking at things. I mean, look. Look at you guys. don't have the same set of questions for everybody that comes on here. ⁓ looking for a hook, you're looking for an angle, you're looking for ⁓ gonna be interesting ⁓ people that are watching and listening. mean, that's just human nature. Well, carry that into business. Carry into your business storytelling. What is gonna make somebody pay attention to you? And look, as I say, there are the few people in the world you know, that are just so immensely successful. You know, they can talk to you about, hey, I get up every morning and I turn the water kettle on and whatever. And then you're gonna find it fascinating. But for the rest of us that don't have that luxury, we have to be a little more, you know, a little more creative and a little more human to create that emotional connection. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I'd how you said that. I've just... Every business is different. So everything should be different for each one that you do to find those stories. So last question here for you, just before we wrap up. What is ⁓ the piece of advice ⁓ you've received? Rich Bornstein: That's an interesting question. I don't know. I I have to think about that. I was talking to somebody, was talking to Lindsay Lohan for a Disney movie years ago, and I asked her question, and you only have five minutes when you get into these sessions, and she said, that's a great question, let me get back to you on that. So obviously it wasn't gonna happen. And I'm not picking on Lindsay Lohan, but that actually did happen. you know, I think this is what I think that I take. This is why I get so emotional watching things these days. I think anytime I see something where somebody is totally committed to their craft, okay, when I'm watching the Mel Brooks documentary and I realized this guy was successful and what? he gave it up. He was making all this money. And he gave it up because he had a greater vision. commitment to it. If you're committed ⁓ you truly are committed and you're not just saying it, I'm committed and you actually do it. I think that's probably the greatest advice that I would give somebody and probably with somebody instilled in me. If you're going to do it, be to it. Don't ⁓ you sure all going to have, we're all going to doubt ourselves in something, but be committed, have the courage of your convictions. Also, It's not just the courage or convictions. ⁓ have to be attainable. ⁓ I'm gonna be the greatest influencer ever. Hey, great. I realize I'm not gonna be the greatest influencer ever. Why? I know nothing about it. I don't live on social media by design. mean, ⁓ I'm involved with social media, but I don't live on it because I would never get anything done. So may not be a realistic goal. What are the realistic goals and how can do what I do and be committed to it with some really attainable steps to that. And maybe the greatest thing that ever happened to me was when I was at Warner's and I was really frustrated, I won't go into that boring story. And I said to this producer that I was working with, he says, what do you wanna do? And I said, well, I like to do what you do. I'd like to be a producer. He said, you really wanna be a producer? And I said, yeah. And he said, if I give you the formula now, you're going to follow it, right? And I said, of course, you give me the formula, I'm doing it. We're at a restaurant. Never forget this. He took out a spoon and he passed it over my head three times and he said, you are a producer. Okay. Are you changed? and I said, what was that? He goes, if you want to be a producer, you have the power. It's within you. Okay. So that, that was another lesson. Like, And look, doubt things like that sometimes when you're in the moment. ⁓ God, I wish you would be giving me some insight. ⁓ it was great insight. Be committed. If that's what you want to do, figure out how to do it and get it done. It was attainable. You know, I mean, I didn't become a show producer, but maybe, you know, maybe if I had actually followed my friend's path and written more scripts and actually stayed with it, you know, maybe that would have been, you know, something that that I it would have done. But. You know, it is what it is. and, but those, those are the things. Be committed. Believe in yourself. had my friend, late Les McCann, who was a famous jazz musician. He said, love yourself. And you know, again, and some of that stuff's nonsense, but it's the truth. When you're having those moments, when you're doubting yourself, when you're sitting there going out, gosh, wish I was more successful. You have to, you have to have the belief here. And as long as it's coming from here, I think you have a path to success. Shawn Sundsvold: Love that, love that. Have you ever, I don't know if you've read much of like, I think it's in his book Greenlights from Matthew McConaughey, right? Where the moment he decides he was gonna become an actor, right? I think he was studying to be a lawyer or something like that and he went to his dad and he said, hey, ⁓ I wanna change careers and I wanna do this. And his dad goes, okay, just don't half ass it. I think that ties very much into what you're saying about just, if that's something you want, just pour into it, go for it. Just don't have a plan B, burn the boats, whatever it is. Just committed to doing it and doing it well. Rich Bornstein: Yeah, I haven't read the book. But yeah, I mean, that's, you know, I mean, I think those those things are true. Those things that they're absolutely true. And I mean, you know, talked, listened to I mean, there was a comedian that was in law school and gave it all up to be a comedian. I don't know if he ever got, you know, you know, when I used to go see him when I was in high school. So but yeah, believe in yourself. And obviously, it worked out okay for Matthew McConaughey. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Rich Bornstein: My son still has not gotten over that Rose Bowl. I mean, he's 32 now and he still can't get over that. It's like, he said it was the worst day of his life. So he was just a kid. So yeah, it's hard to get it out of our systems. Shawn Sundsvold: Yup, yup. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, how do people find you? And what would be the best way for people to get in contact with you? Shawn Sundsvold: ⁓ Rich Bornstein: Just go outside, you you've seen that movie, Network. I'm mad as hell I'm not gonna take it anymore and then I will respond. I mean, that's probably the easiest thing in the world. No, ⁓ I joke. all my references are later. Network's a long time ago, but for those of you who haven't seen it, watch it. It still resonates. It was just on the other night and it still is an incredible entertainment and there's a lot of truth to it, especially today. No, it's some... Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Rich Bornstein: can get me, you can email me richb at bornsteenmedia.com. You can ⁓ look my website, bornsteenmedia.com. You can hit me up on LinkedIn. I try to respond to everybody. I mean, ⁓ I caution. I'm not a therapist. You know, some people try to set up meetings with me and it's like we discuss, you know, ⁓ how lives are and all that kind of stuff. Great. I for you. I empathize, but. ⁓ There's only so much time. But no, I try to respond to everybody. And let's face it, in what we do, it's about people. It's about communicating. So how much of a hypocrite would I be if I ignored people that reached out to me? I'd be the biggest hypocrite on the planet. And you call me a lot of things and I try not to be a hypocrite. I really try to put my life where my mouth is. So yeah, reach out to me, Rich B at Barnstein Media. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rich Bornstein: Shoot me a note on bornsteinmedia.com, you know, in that form. I get them. And LinkedIn too, say, I'm interested in discussing it and then, you know, talking things over with you. And I appreciate it. If you have a story to tell and you don't quite know how to do it, you know, let's figure out a way to get it done. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah, sounds great. Well, thank you so much, Rich, for being with us, for sharing your story and your experience. think a lot of our listeners will get value from what you've shared. I think just a reminder of what's the why behind it, behind what you're doing is just so valuable. So you so much. Rich Bornstein: Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. And it's always a joy to sit there and talk about what you do and gives you your motivation for getting up in the morning and staying awake during the day. So thank you for having me. Kelly Sundsvold: Absolutely.