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From Family Business to Recovery Work with Steve Lee · Finding New Waters

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And in our recovery literature, it talks about the fact that
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we're brought together by a common problem.
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In fact, every 12 step meeting I go into, I walk in the door at
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the level of the problem. That's what we everyone in that
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particular room has that in common.
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But it says we stay at the level of the solution.
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We stay because we have a solution upon which we can
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absolutely agree and joining brotherly and harmonious action.
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And so I'm here for the brotherly and harmonious action.
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All right. Welcome to another episode of
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Finding New Waters. My name is Bea Reeves.
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I'm the director of Business Development here at New Waters.
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And today got a very special guest.
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Really, really, really psyched to have Steve Lee, who is the
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director of strategic relationships at Cumberland
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Heights in Nashville. Do I have that right?
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You have it right be actually it's senior director of
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strategic Relationships. But to be fair, there's not a
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director and I think the senior is much more reference to my age
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than the position. Well, either way, I'm we're very
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glad to have you. I'm excited to be here with you.
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Thank you for the invitation. Yeah, man.
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And just briefly, I'll just start with how I first met
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Steve. He was, I was at a conference in
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Austin two or three years ago and he was a speaker.
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And as we were checking into the hotel, I had a little bit of an
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issue with my room and that I was determined to go deal with
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after this dinner where we had the speaker.
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Who is Steve? And I'm going to let him correct
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the story that I'm going to sort of improperly regurgitate.
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But he told a story about being at a convention in Vancouver, I
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think. And he was sitting with the guy
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and they'd ordered both ordered cheeseburgers.
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And one guy got a club sandwich. And he looked at me and said,
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didn't you order a cheeseburger? And he said, well, sometimes you
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order a a cheeseburger and you get a club sandwich, and that's
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OK. And he just went about his day.
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And I remember thinking, well, you know what, You know what, I
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got this hotel room. I just need to be grateful.
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I'm not going to worry about it. And then I went back to the
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hotel and heard somebody else get a, get a different room.
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So I went up to the desk and, you know, completely went
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against everything I'd thought I was going to do in my new
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spiritual way of living. So thank you, Steve.
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Well, you perfectly captured the essence of the message and I
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regularly have to remind myself to be OK with the with with what
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I'm served rather than what I've ordered.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, you know, when I,
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when I do live that way, my day in my life seemed to both go a
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lot better. So how did you get into this
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field first of all? We know, interestingly, that
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people tend to think that I've been in the field a very long
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time and I and I truly haven't. I've now been in the field for
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12 years and I had been I am 35 years clean and sober.
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And so I had been active in in my recovery community, but not
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in this field. And to be honestly, I was very
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reluctant to getting in the field.
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I, I pushed back to from some initial opportunities, but I've
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been in a family business all my adult life, sales and marketing.
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My dad had started it. He actually died very young and
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unexpectedly at 47 years old. And I was 18.
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My older brother was 22, and he took over the business.
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I rolled into it at 21 and worked there for 37 years.
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So I was 58 years old actually before I was making a career
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shift when we sold that business and said, hey, what what I want
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to do? Where am I willing to spend my
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time? What what's that going to look
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like for me, I was at a stage of my life where I I wasn't trying
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to be king of the world anymore. Right at my, I was, but still
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needed to generate some income. And you know, I went and visited
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with a guy who was helping me sort through my thinking and
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that's and he said, Steve, I want you to ask yourself three
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questions and give them thoughtful consideration and
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don't be self-conscious in the way you choose to answer.
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And he said, if you if you want to be an astronaut, say
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astronaut, right? But he said, what do you love?
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What do you value? And what do you grade at?
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And he said, look, there two or three things.
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Everybody's got the right answer to what my values are and what
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do I love? And you said that's real.
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But he says, I'm really encouraging you to try to go in
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a little bit deeper and go, no, what do I really love?
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What what moves me, what lights my fire, what energizes me
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rather than takes energy from me.
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And he said, what do you value? He said, what are those things
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that are that are non negotiables?
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What are those things that that that you're aligned with that to
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be contradictory to that alignment would, would begin to
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take its toll. And you said, what do you, I
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mean, what are you great at? And you said, you know, most
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people have a hard time assigning greatness to
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themselves in any area. They'll go, oh, I'm pretty good
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at this or pretty good at that. And answering those three
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questions as I did when I gave them thoughtful consideration
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and, and well, they didn't lead me directly to what I was, what
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I ended up doing be they took, they narrowed the target, right?
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They gave me some clarity. They moved a lot of things off
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the board. And as it turns out, being in
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this field in the way that I'm able to be in it.
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Maybe we can talk about that a little later.
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I'm not patient facing right out that it's, it's not that I'm a
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therapist or a counselor doing that kind of work, but but, but
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being in the community of people that are, that are in this field
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has, I believe served me well. And and I hope I've served it
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well. So it at 58 was the first job
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that I had in this industry. I'm 71 today.
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I'm interesting because I definitely did.
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Even though I've heard your story and I've gotten to know
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you a little bit over the last few years, I I definitely
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thought you had been in the field longer.
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You certainly, you know, were such an authentic guy and it
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just, you just so natural to it. And I think, and I don't want to
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tell you what your 3 answers were, but I'd never, I'd, nobody
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asked me to ask myself those questions when I had the
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opportunity to work in the field.
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I got clean and sober a little bit older at 41.
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I started working in the field at 43.
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But if I, I think that the answers would have been the same
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then as they are now. And you know what I would, I
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would say I'm, I am great at talking to people and you
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certainly are. You're one of the best I've ever
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seen and I love being a love recovery and I value principle
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living through the 12 steps. And so I think that I if I'd
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asked myself those questions, where's asking myself those
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questions five years ago, it would be the same as it is
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today. And so I'm glad that it's come
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out now that I'm I feel like I'm in the right place because I
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like you. I'm not a therapist.
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I am not, I have, I have no letters by my name.
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I am just a guy in recovery who comes from a background of, you
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know, had a interesting career, some would say, but I mean, you
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know, a lot of kind of a sales background that it required
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somebody who was gregarious and affable.
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And it ended up being kind of a nice fit.
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But one thing that I would love to hear your thoughts on when I
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was considering I'd move into this field and again, I, you
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know, I've been to treatment. I went to a treatment center
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that I hear in the same kind of sand is in the same kind of
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sandbox as Cumberland old school 12 step recovery.
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We were reading a book by Sandy Beach at a meeting I was
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attending at a guy's house during early COVID.
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And there was the concept of A2 Hatter in it and talking about
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when treatment center started becoming more and more prevalent
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in the 70s, I guess, was it OK for, you know, somebody in 12
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step recovery to go work at a treatment center?
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Is that a conflict? You know, and the answer is
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it's, it's OK as long as they have two distinct hats.
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And so I, so I, you know, that helped guide my decision to take
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that leap and to start working in the field.
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And but the best advice I got, and I don't remember who the
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first one, I don't remember the first person who gave it to me
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was, but I definitely got it from a few different people.
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And I try to impart this as often as I can is don't let this
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be my recovery, meaning this be my, my job, our, you know, our
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job, because we see that where it can get tempting for some
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people to sort of blur the lines and think, Hey, you know, I'm
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helping this guy. I hope that we took these people
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to a meeting today. I helped this guy today.
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I helped this family today. But you know that that's my job.
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You know, my job. I get paid to do that.
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My recovery is separate. And if they can complement each
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other, that's great, but they are separate.
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Well, absolutely. And that was one of my concerns
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on the front end was twofold. In fact, I talked to a guy that
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that was one of my go to mentors as I was sorting through my
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options and, and working in the field became one of them.
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And, and I told him, I said, I've got 2 concerns.
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One of them is probably a little more noble than the other one.
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And I said I'm, I'm concerned about the a, a potential
10:02
conflict of my personal values and my recovery values and what
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can sometimes be the messy business of treatment.
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And again, I was saying this from the outside looking in
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because I had not yet obviously worked in the field.
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And, and I said the other thing I'm concerned about is what
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other people are going to think about me for working in the
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field in my, my recovery community and who often had
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strong opinions about a view that, that this was what we
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would refer to as paid 12 step work.
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And I think though, and, and all of that is worthy of thoughtful
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consideration, but I think that what I have learned and what has
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become more and more clear is that even a lot of my
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preconceived ideas were wrong about what, about what happens.
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And it really is a pretty clear delineation if I'm willing to
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look for it and, and, and pay attention.
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And I tell you know, I talked to young people in the field a lot
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and, and so, you know, confusing my personal recovery in my work
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is be the equivalent of somebody that's a, a, a construction
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worker building homes all day, but coming home and not taking
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care of his own house and not repairing around the house and,
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and not doing renovations where called for.
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And so I I don't confuse the two and and I think that they can be
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complimentary, but one should never replace the other in
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either direction. I agree.
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And you know, one way to look at it, that I at least looked at
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it, is somebody's got to do this work it.
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I mean, I would rather it be you, Steve Lee, than, you know,
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somebody who you know, came from.
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Not that this is a bad person coming from, you know, another
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industry or or doesn't, you know, have a program of
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recovery, but I would personally rather it be somebody who is
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living a principled life based in the 12 steps.
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Well, in that same mentor suggested at the time, he said
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if you are worried about how things are done, what better
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place for you to be? And he said if you if you just
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take who you are to that situation, that's when you
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either you can have an influence not by going in and telling
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people what to do or what they're doing wrong, just
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through a demonstration of being who you are, or you will find
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overtime whether that's just not an appropriate fit for you.
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Right, and clearly you found it to be the case.
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And have you been at Cumberland the whole time?
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I have not. I've been at Cumberland now six
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years. The first role that I took was a
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business development role. And and I did discover a a few
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months into that role that that I wasn't, that there wasn't
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alignment with me and the way that business was run.
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And I want to be clear, I don't mean that I'm not casting
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aspersions because that doesn't make one right and one wrong,
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but it just didn't line up with me.
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And there are I was referring people and helping folks into
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into treatment and find treatment, but often it was to a
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place that I've never been to. This had multiple programs
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around the country and I'm feel confident that each one
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independently did good work. And but, but for me, it was
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just, it was too impersonal. So I've really benefited being
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at Cumberland Heights and again, for a fit for me, that's a place
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that, that where I'm out on campus.
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I, I'm, I'm with the staff, I know the clinicians.
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I, I, I get to see the people that end up going to treatment
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there some that I've had a hand in.
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And, and so it's a, it's a more personal and I get, I get to
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interact with the, with the, the staff and, and folks.
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And to me, that's been a critical piece for me.
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Yeah, well, Cumberland Heights is, you know, one of the most
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respected treatment centers in the country and we certainly
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love sending people there. I so you told us a little bit
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about how, you know, you got in the field.
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But I would love to hear a little bit of experience,
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strength and hope of kind of how you found yourself, you know,
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qualified to be in the field. Well, I also you referenced it a
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a few minutes ago about yourself and I often kid that that I am
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almost always the least credentialed person in the room,
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whatever room I might be in. And so I, I knew that that
15:00
coming into the field that we wasn't going to be, as I said, a
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patient facing type role. I with the sales and business
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background I had, it seemed a bit a business development made
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sense. But to be honest with you, I
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really didn't have a clear feel for what that looked like.
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And I tell people today, I don't it, it is hardly ever what you
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think it's going to be from the outside looking in.
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And you've got to, to get engaged.
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And so when I went through that process of trying to evaluate
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what it was I wanted to do and answered the questions, and it's
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very much the way that you did. I, I thought that communication
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was a strength of mine. Yet when I was talking to the
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individual that was trying to help me, I could hardly finish a
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sentence. So it was almost embarrassing
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because I had such a hard time articulating where I was and
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what I was, what I was looking for.
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And this individual really helped me through that process.
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She was a professional. I, I don't want to call her a
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executive coach or placement person 'cause that would do a
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disservice. That would minimize her impact
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on me, but but help me navigate my own thinking in a way that I
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was not able to do. And I, I took that first role
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that I mentioned and in a, in a funny way, it, I, I knew soon it
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was nine months that I, that I left working at that place that
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was very good to me. And so I always want to make
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sure that, that I'm clear about that.
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I cashed every check they gave me and I was grateful to have
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been there, but it wasn't for me.
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And then I had a friend. I didn't realize the that I was
16:59
moving from the frying pan to the fire.
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I had a friend that was in the toxicology business that owned a
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boutique tots lab. Now you know some of our
17:10
listeners may not know but but that industry was the Wild West
17:15
for quite a while too and was looked upon.
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I used to kid that that finally used car salesman had someone to
17:23
look down on with the TOTS wrap and but it's good company, good
17:30
people. Again, I am grateful and, and
17:33
proud to have been affiliated and, and we were dealing only
17:39
with addiction treatment programs as time went on and I
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was there for about 5 years. But that industry was changing.
17:52
As you're well aware that being in network with labs became a,
17:56
a, a, pretty much a necessity if you were going to do anything
18:01
significant and build an account base.
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And for this company to grow and sustain itself, it was going to
18:10
have to broaden the account base and to include doctors and pain
18:17
clinics and, and, and take a more medical turn.
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And that's just not something that, that felt like a fit for
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me. And I will tell you, I, I came
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in and I, I told my wife, I said, I think I'm going to step
18:30
away from, from this position. And she said, as most reasonable
18:35
people do, she said that, well, that's great.
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She said, but you know, you need to have a job before you leave a
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job, right? That's kind of the old saying.
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And I said, you know what? I said, I just don't think I can
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look around and see clearly while I have the job.
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And I don't think I'm the guy that can sneak off at lunchtime
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for an interview and just doesn't feel right.
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And she was a little nervous. And but anyway, the next morning
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my wife Connie came out and she said, she says, you know what?
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She says I trust you and I trust God, so you do what you need to
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do. And two days later I had the job
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I have today and I made two phone calls and and the good
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folks at Cumberland Heights at at the time it was Butch Glover
19:29
and J Cross and reached out and invited me to meet them for
19:35
breakfast. I had let them know that I was
19:38
making a change and we had that breakfast and the job offer was
19:44
made a couple of days later. That's awesome.
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Well, so now you've found you found sounds like you're finally
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home in terms of your the job in in our field.
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And you know, you're not you work at a like we've talked
19:58
about just a really kind of the way I would describe it is just
20:01
good old fashioned old school 12 step recovery.
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But and you know, you said you've been clean and sober now
20:08
35 years, right? That's correct.
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How did how did you get clean and sober?
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What led to it and how to tell me a little bit about that?
20:16
Well it it was not virtue or intelligence be thank God
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neither of those are necessary. But the truth is, I had I had
20:28
been convicted of my 6th DUI and as part of a plea bargaining
20:34
agreement, I would given some jail time appropriately and
20:38
understandably. And they cut some of that off if
20:42
I would go to, I say, what they referred to as residential drug
20:48
and alcohol rehabilitation. Yeah, I'd never heard all those
20:52
words strung together in 1988, but I magnanimously agreed and
21:01
sounded, you know, marginally better than jail to me.
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So it was July the 1st of 1989 that I went to a treatment
21:09
center here in Nashville, actually in Brentwood was not
21:13
Cumberland Heights. To be honest, if treatment
21:16
programs weren't on my radar, I, I was a little place called the
21:20
Harbors of Brentwood in Brentwood, TN and I went there
21:25
with no intention of, of changing my life dramatically.
21:30
I, I didn't want to get in trouble often, kid I, I didn't
21:33
get any of those DUIS on purpose, right?
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I wasn't it was in fact, I said the first couple could happen to
21:40
anybody, but I tried really hard not to get 33 fix but but they
21:47
kept coming. But somewhere in that process,
21:51
somewhere in the first three weeks of being in that treatment
21:54
environment and don't say with great gratitude, many women from
22:00
different 12 step fellowships coming in to bring meetings and
22:04
us going out. And as you know that we had the
22:08
full assortment of on the 12 step wheel of Fortune coming in.
22:15
We, at the time we, we had Alcoholics Anonymous coming in,
22:19
had Narcotics Anonymous coming in, had Cocaine Anonymous coming
22:23
in. We certainly had someone from Al
22:26
Anon come in and, and speak from the family perspective.
22:30
So being exposed to this variety of, of 12 step fellowships, I
22:35
was very grateful for to kind of find where I fit the best.
22:39
And as we talked today, I'll speak generally about that 12
22:44
step recovery, but out of respect of of the traditions and
22:49
anonymity, I don't want to assign myself membership in one,
22:53
not to protect me, but to protect that fellowship and for
22:56
anyone to mistakenly think that I speak for, for that
23:00
fellowship. I hear you.
23:03
Well, I appreciate that. I had a similar situation where
23:07
I was definitely wasn't my idea. I'd gotten the DU is much
23:11
younger and you know, when I was 20, I got 2, about 3 months
23:15
apart. And then, you know, other kind
23:17
of minor legal trouble with alcohol always being the common
23:20
denominator. And then finally I went to a
23:23
treatment center where they, we, we, they took us out to
23:25
different 12 step meetings and I didn't want to be there.
23:29
I, I mean, I, I was trying to get people off my back and I
23:31
wasn't necessarily trying to, wasn't a nudge from a judge as
23:35
they say, but it was, you know, to get I, I went for other
23:37
people, you know, and I just wanted to come out and, and be
23:40
able to drink like a gentleman and do, you know, and just not
23:43
be addicted to one specific thing.
23:45
And I mean, for lack of a better word, I just participated just
23:49
to make it go by fast and heard what I needed to hear, which was
23:53
my way of doing things. Got me half a room at that
23:55
treatment center and, you know, had a spiritual experience while
23:59
I was in there and came out on fire for, for recovery.
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But I you, the, so you kind of got in there.
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I mean, it was what we would call a nudge from a judge and
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you came out and that that was it.
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I mean, that was that was your one experience.
24:14
That was my one experience, like you were just saying.
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Interestingly, at least to me, was about 3 weeks in, I was able
24:22
to say out loud for the first time, identify myself as a, as
24:29
an alcoholic and an addict and, and that that, that I had this
24:32
substance use problem in today's language and, and then had to
24:38
figure out what to do about it, right.
24:39
And, and like you, I came out and, and I was on fire.
24:45
I was attracted right away and I couldn't tell you what it what
24:49
it was attracted to. I think you and I were both
24:53
sitting in, in one of those meetings earlier this week.
24:58
And one of the things that that I believe happened to me as I
25:01
heard what's referred to as the language of the heart, that a,
25:06
that a message came to me that wasn't resonating with me
25:09
intellectually, but just landed somewhere when someone would
25:13
talk. And most often be, it was not
25:16
about the things that these individuals did while drinking
25:22
or using drugs and under the influence, but how they felt
25:27
between those episodes, how they and, and, and people began to
25:34
describe and articulate things that I had not been able to
25:39
identify. I felt it, but, but there were
25:42
the, the feelings were really chronicled.
25:45
There was a there's a line in in one of the Co founders of
25:50
Alcoholics Anonymous is described in in their text where
25:57
it says that he was painfully aware of feeling somehow
26:01
abnormal for he did not yet fully understand what it meant
26:05
to be alcohol. And when I heard that, I
26:08
thought, oh, I was painfully aware, Ronnie, of feeling
26:12
somehow abnormal. But I wouldn't have been able to
26:14
tell you what what the abnormality was.
26:18
You know, I can always tell people that it's easy for me to
26:22
talk about what happened when I was drinking or when I was using
26:27
drugs, right? I was drunk or I was high.
26:30
And when I do that, that's drunken and loaded behavior.
26:34
But what about on a Tuesday afternoon?
26:36
I had a wife that loved me. I'd been married seven years.
26:41
When I got sober, I had a 5 year old daughter.
26:44
I had a middle class life going on that do what?
26:47
There weren't circumstantially reasons, right?
26:51
That that that I should be driven to a bottle or to a drug.
26:56
And so I couldn't understand why I felt the way I felt.
27:01
And again, the feeling itself was indescribable by me, but I
27:06
began to hear versions of that from other people and that
27:10
really connected me to the recovery community.
27:14
Yeah, I love that. And you know, the language of
27:16
the heart like we did discuss in that meeting the other day.
27:19
And I felt the same way when I, when I went to speaker meetings
27:22
where I picked up my white ship and they, you know, and most of
27:25
the fellowships were discussing a white ship is the
27:28
international sign of surrender. And I did that.
27:31
And I mean, I like the speaker meetings, but it took me getting
27:34
to my first discussion meeting when I got home, I got home at
27:37
10:30 on a Wednesday and went to a noon meeting.
27:39
And that's where I really felt at home and started to really
27:43
hear the language of the heart because the stories, the, the
27:46
speaker meetings were great. But I that, but I got to be
27:48
honest, it was even though I was on fire for, for being clean and
27:52
sober, I didn't really understand how much I was fell
27:56
in. I fell in love at love at first
27:57
sight of recovery. When I got to that first
28:00
discussion, open discussion meeting when I got home that
28:02
day. And I've heard you say in
28:05
another talk you've given at a speaker meeting that, you know,
28:10
everybody says it's kind of like church.
28:12
You know, I've never felt worse after leaving church.
28:14
I've never felt worse after leaving a meeting.
28:16
And I've heard you say, you know, I, I mostly agree with
28:19
that. However, sometimes I hear
28:22
something that I wasn't prepared to hear about myself, kind of
28:24
that like to the the point of the language of the heart, an
28:27
emotion or an experience that I didn't realize I had inside of
28:31
me. And it really made me need to
28:33
look at myself when something that was uncomfortable.
28:35
I mean you were being funny about it, but instead of just
28:37
saying that every time I leave a meeting every I'm just floating.
28:40
Which is for me mostly true, but sometimes I hear there's
28:43
uncomfortable things that make me realize I need to look at
28:45
something inside myself. All right.
28:47
And those are the wonderful opportunities, but they are
28:51
uncomfortable, right? We get the we refer to growing
28:54
pains and if I'm unwilling to continue to learn things and and
29:00
hear things and here's when I know you know when you find
29:05
yourself or I find myself in a meeting, hearing someone share
29:09
thinking about who I think should be hearing that right.
29:12
If you're who I wish my wife could hear that.
29:14
I wish my daughter could hear that.
29:16
I wish a spot and I'd go, Oh, Steve, maybe you need to hear
29:20
that right. When I, when my focus becomes
29:23
totally about other people, rather than let me for this next
29:27
hour figure out how this lands on me, 'cause I think you know,
29:31
the easiest thing for me anyway, it having been around recovery
29:37
for 35 years and we and we tell our stories.
29:41
That's what we do is share with one another the truth about
29:44
ourselves. But the easiest thing I do is
29:48
tell you or any other group of people what I used to do 35
29:53
years ago. You know I can because it's so
29:56
long and and implies I'm better now.
29:59
And by the way, I'm a lot better now.
30:01
This won't impress you, but this is the very best version of me
30:05
I've ever been and that look too good for people who just meet
30:10
me. They might not be impressed.
30:11
But if you saw the before picture, this is pretty good.
30:15
But am I willing to, to stay teachable and to continue to
30:21
have that self reflection that says, oh, wait, here's an area
30:26
where maybe I'm still bumping into something or perhaps with
30:29
my wife or with my daughter or, or, or at work or with a
30:33
coworker that I, oh, I've been short with that person.
30:37
And I, I, I want to, rather than just defend myself from the
30:41
charges, can I, can I take a, an honest look at me and try to be
30:45
willing to grow through that? Yeah, I mean that, you know,
30:50
people not, I wouldn't say often, but I do get the
30:53
question. You still go to those things,
30:55
you know, and you still you're and the answer is yes, of
31:00
course. But also, I mean, like you just
31:02
said, I mean, it's one thing to just kind of stop the bleeding
31:05
and be able to not get, you know, between the two of us, 8
31:08
DU is anymore and get in trouble and get fired and oversleep and,
31:13
you know, bounce shit, whatever it is.
31:16
You know, the consequences are going to probably go away for me
31:18
and most people if I'd stop drinking and doing drugs in
31:20
terms of, you know, it's pretty hard to get a DUI when I'm
31:23
sober. I mean, without drinking, you
31:24
know, there's that. But but to constantly be growing
31:27
and getting better. And yeah, this is the best
31:30
version of myself as well. And, you know, I'm sure you see
31:33
this and have been seeing it longer than I have.
31:34
But, you know, with these families and they send their
31:38
loved one to, to new Waters or to, to Cumberland and, you know,
31:43
especially us, 'cause we, you know, the vast majority of
31:46
people are there for a short amount of time for seven to 10
31:48
days for detox and then, you know, after and we're trying to
31:52
get them to go to Cumberland Heights.
31:54
You know, that's going to be the good fit.
31:55
And then after three days, and I warned the families, you know,
31:59
they're going to your son, he is going to sound better.
32:02
He is going to look better. He is going to even feel a lot
32:06
better and he's going to be speaking a new language, but he
32:08
is not better, you know, and he's, he's going to be a lot
32:11
better than he was three days ago, you know, and I'm a lot
32:13
better than I was almost seven years ago, but I'm not better.
32:16
I'm always continuing to try to get better by working a program
32:20
of recovery. And it that's the thing.
32:22
It's like it in super early recovery, still in treatment.
32:25
It can be a false sense of security and then, but it can
32:29
also be a false sense of security when we've been sober
32:31
for a little while and think that, hey, we got this and we
32:34
know what happens then, you know?
32:35
Well, it's, you know, for me and this happens over time and, and,
32:41
and, and you see it, but you know, ultimately getting clean
32:46
and sober is how we end up in a treatment environment or, and
32:52
then ongoing in our recovery environment, how to get sober
32:55
and how to stay So. But what's been treated for me
33:00
is when we talked about a moment ago that, that feeling somehow
33:04
abnormal. Well, the 12 step recovery that
33:08
that I'm in treats that abnormality, that feeling or a
33:12
spiritual malady, if you will. And So what happens over time?
33:17
And, and don't misunderstand me here or certainly other people
33:21
listening. I wouldn't want to
33:22
misunderstand. I am absolutely capable of, of
33:26
taking a drink or a drug again. I, I am not cocky about that.
33:30
I don't take my physical sobriety for granted at all, but
33:36
my participation in my recovery today is much more driven by
33:42
where I'm going then fear of going back to where I've been.
33:47
I, we're on this, have this design for living that is in
33:52
fact a, a spiritual way of life that doesn't cap out anywhere,
33:57
right? And so I'm loving this spiritual
34:00
journey that I'm on. And that's also what attaches me
34:04
and connects me to the other people that are going along for
34:08
the ride. In the, in our recovery
34:11
literature, it talks about the fact that we're brought together
34:14
by a common problem. In fact, every 12 step meeting I
34:19
go into, I walk in the door at the level of the problem.
34:23
That's what we everyone in that particular room has that in
34:28
common. But it says we stay at the level
34:33
of the solution. We stay because we have a
34:35
solution upon which we can absolutely agree and join in
34:40
brotherly and harmonious action. And so I'm here for the
34:44
brotherly and harmonious action. Right, and I mean, and you just
34:49
said it this so that's the it's the solution.
34:50
And before for me, and it sounds like for you, drugs and alcohol
34:54
were the were the solution to all my problems, big or small,
34:57
you know, real or imagined. And now recovery is the
35:00
solution. And that's something that, you
35:02
know, I think people looking from the outside in, it's just
35:05
so hard to and there's just no way to explain it.
35:07
Like we're sitting here talking about this on a podcast and we
35:10
talked about it in meetings on the road, in our individual
35:13
respective meetings home and we're traveling, but it's
35:15
impossible to really explain this.
35:17
It just has to be lived. And that's something that, you
35:20
know, we're always trying to, or I'm always trying to help people
35:23
understand. It's just to really give it
35:24
that, you know, like I would go to any length to go get drunk or
35:29
high. And I, I and I should and am
35:32
willing to go to any length to, you know, stay sober and
35:34
continue to live, you know, life based in the 12 steps.
35:38
And then that serenity that comes from it is that's what's
35:42
so impossible to explain. It just seems like from the
35:45
outside, it's just OK. I don't do drugs, I don't drink
35:48
anymore. That's great.
35:49
But it's all about, you know, what we get from, from working
35:53
the steps and, and, and living a principled life when you, you
35:59
know, we were talking a little bit about ethics in the
36:01
workplace. And I know that's something, you
36:03
know, Cumberland is, you know, very is just known for being a
36:06
good old fashioned 12 step ethical place.
36:10
And so, you know, we got this our field.
36:13
I, I try not to call it an industry, but it is, you know,
36:16
we see stuff kind of come and go and pop up and what, what do
36:19
you, what do you kind of see it in your travels and in your, in
36:22
your position from kind of, you know, what to be on the lookout
36:25
for in terms of ethics and, and I guess violations of ethics.
36:30
Well, in, in when, when I speak about it, because I, I don't
36:33
want to. I'm certainly not the arbiter of
36:36
of the industry and the guy who steps back and in fact, ethics
36:41
and and you've been around long enough in the field to see that
36:44
about every season, every couple of years, we tap into a new word
36:50
and then we beat that word to death that conference
36:53
presentations and talks and stuff.
36:56
And, and what is a very serious and real thing becomes
37:01
trivialized to, because we overuse it not, not purposely,
37:05
but so when I think about and talk about ethics and principles
37:12
and values, right, I'm really have that conversation relative
37:17
to individuals. Uh, and as we kind of talked
37:21
earlier, I'm hoping people can bring that into their workplace.
37:25
And I, I'm responsible, uh, who and where I work is not
37:29
responsible for my ethics and my values and my principal
37:34
behavior, but I am. So what I have to ask myself, I,
37:38
I've spoken before a couple of groups professionally, uh,
37:43
business development groups talking about this and said, I
37:47
believe that everyone in this room showed up today with
37:51
ethics, with principles. But do my principles hold up?
37:57
Do they hold up at, at, you know, I got, I got first of the
38:02
month principles. Do I have end of the month
38:04
principles, right? Do my principles hold up when
38:08
quotas not being met, when my manager is on me about the
38:12
number of admissions, when you know when, when the rents due or
38:19
the mortgage is due or or the car payment then?
38:23
And because a principal is unwavering, right, the principal
38:27
is not malleable. And so do mine hold up
38:31
independent of the circumstances that I'm operating in it.
38:35
And again, it's not a finger wagging question.
38:38
It's it's AI got to point it back in me and ask myself, am I,
38:41
am I holding up during this and and and guarded because I can
38:48
begin to put fear will force me, perhaps others to make a bad
38:53
decision. Right.
38:55
Fear. I'm a good guy and, and I'm
38:59
speaking in the collective, I think we're good people
39:02
typically who then sometimes making it make a, a bad choice
39:06
out of fear. And what I've learned in our
39:09
recovery is that we're here to play the spiritual long game,
39:12
right? And not trade it off in a moment
39:15
that feels like things are going to be too hard or not worked out
39:18
or I'm going to get in trouble. And also we have to guard
39:22
against rationalization of things, you know, and
39:26
recognizing that there's a difference in what I have a
39:30
right to do and what is right to do.
39:34
And can I stay for me committed to what is right to do to those
39:38
to those values. So I've asked people have have
39:41
you ever been challenged to to act contradictory to who you
39:47
authentically are to placate either a a work relationship or
39:54
or get the business in quotation marks or make the deal happen.
39:59
I went to my mentor when I was six years sober.
40:02
You and I are familiar with the phrase practicing these
40:06
principles in all our affairs with this guy named Frank who
40:10
was instrumental in my life and I was sober about six months
40:14
and. I said, Frank, I believe
40:16
practicing these principles in all my affairs is putting me at
40:19
a competitive disadvantage in the workplace.
40:23
And he laughed and, and he said only seemingly.
40:27
So Steve, he said, 'cause if you're asking me anecdotally, if
40:32
there's a particular deal that you won't get because you won't
40:37
turn a blind eye or or a shave a corner or entertain in a
40:42
particular way, he said absolutely, absolutely there are
40:46
individual deals you won't get. But he said you had no idea the
40:52
number of people who have quietly chosen not to do
40:54
business with you 'cause you just not their kind of guy, just
40:58
the vibe you put off. He said, I'm not even talking
41:01
about you drinking and your drug use necessarily, but just just
41:05
not their kind of guy. Just but if you will
41:08
consistently and unwaveringly practice these principles, he
41:13
said, I promise you the people will be be put in your life that
41:17
are supposed to be they'll be drawn to you.
41:20
And he wasn't promising that I'd be, you know, the head of a
41:23
Fortune 500 company. But he said that he, he said he
41:28
said it, it will work out in your favor.
41:31
You will be taken care of and you'll be able to put your head
41:35
on the pillow at night and you'll be able to look at the
41:37
man in the mirror the next morning.
41:40
And well, that's more important to me than it's ever been.
41:42
The and, and, and I'd see some younger people that come in and,
41:48
and with good intentions and, and get easily moved off to the
41:57
side by a sparkly thing. And lots of times that's because
42:01
they don't have benefit of I think the mentorship that I had
42:05
and the people around me supporting me.
42:07
I don't think these are bad people.
42:09
I think that that, you know, some people are just
42:11
intentionally nefarious, right? It's but a lot of us just waver
42:18
in a moment and then lose our way.
42:20
And that's why I'm grateful in recovery that I've been given
42:23
these principles that are spiritual true north, so they
42:27
always point north and longer answer than you probably wanted.
42:32
And I got another 30 minutes I could do extemporaneously
42:36
because it's so important to me. But thank you for asking.
42:40
Yeah, well, no, thank you. And I, you know, I'm sorry to
42:43
even cut you off because I loved every second of it.
42:46
And I, you know, I was just thinking about when I was, I
42:49
grew up in a going to church and both parents principled and, you
42:53
know, grew up with in values instilled in me.
42:56
Of course, I wavered from them as I got, you know, the older I
42:59
got. And then of course, when I
43:00
started to dabble in substances and all that, But I mean, I
43:04
still did have the true North weather out.
43:06
It was just resistant to it for a longer time than I probably
43:09
needed to be. But I do, I remember when I was
43:11
in 10th grade taking a comparative religion class and
43:15
the teacher just simply said, ethics is what we do and no one
43:18
is looking. And I've, you know, I've never
43:20
forgotten that. And so to your point, you know,
43:24
I, I, I'm sure that we have, I mean, I know we've lost, you
43:29
know, business and deals, you know, from, you know, not
43:33
cutting corners. And then also, but something you
43:35
said that was so interesting is, and I think this is what you
43:38
mean, that somebody doesn't like your vibe.
43:41
And I, and I think what he meant was some people who are not
43:46
necessarily have a, that compass pointing north and, and living a
43:51
principled life and doing business in a principled way.
43:53
They don't want to do business with somebody who is.
43:56
Is that kind of what we're talking about here?
43:58
Well, I think that I wasn't thinking exactly in that
44:03
context, but I do believe that we draw the Pete that that that,
44:07
you know, early on in my recovery, I had the I was couple
44:12
years sober and Oh, I just gave a share, the end all shares in
44:17
this 12 step meeting and I went that great leaf then the far
44:20
beyond what was appropriate in that meeting.
44:23
And afterwards, three or four people came up and we're just
44:27
fawning over me and telling me how great that was.
44:30
And my 12 step sponsor was that there in the room and and he
44:36
came over and he said, I just want you to take a look at the
44:39
people that were attracted to your share today.
44:43
And and so the folks that we attract, I think and and so I'm
44:48
just the people that I'm drawn to today are people that are,
44:57
that I do believe demonstrate personal integrity.
45:00
And again, I don't want to sound like I am casting aspersions on
45:04
the fields because I'm not. I think we're each individually
45:08
challenged to find, and I'm also not in charge of what somebody
45:12
else's moral line should be. I just want to find out what
45:16
mine is and can I stay committed to it and can I be willing for
45:20
it to shift over time if I grow and see things more clear?
45:25
Yes, absolutely. And you know that I mean, I, we
45:28
can all have, you know, you know, our, our core values put
45:32
on our website and on our literature and all that, but
45:34
it's really going to be up to us as the individuals to practice
45:37
the principles and all our affairs and be ethical.
45:40
But you just said something that reminded me of something I
45:42
wanted to ask you about anyway, about can my perspective shift
45:46
and grow? And I'm not exactly sure what
45:48
you just said, but it reminded me.
45:49
I've, I've heard you speak before where you've said talking
45:54
about friends you had before you got sober.
45:57
And then it's not like you decided, you know, I'm better
46:00
than these people or I'd I've cut them off for my life.
46:02
I think you actually used the word divorced, but you just kind
46:07
of your interest changed, you know, and you, and I think you
46:09
mentioned, you know, you, you're probably not going to find me at
46:12
the opera, not because I don't like people who like the opera.
46:16
I just don't. So like, that's not where you're
46:17
going to find me. And it was one of the and I've
46:20
found that to be true with in my situation too, where I never
46:23
really felt like I needed to. I mean, I literally did.
46:26
There were a few phone numbers I got rid of of drug dealers, but
46:29
like I didn't have to ditch all my friends.
46:32
But my interests have changed over time with, you know, and
46:36
it's not necessarily just because my values have changed
46:38
because they were always there, but they were maybe a little bit
46:40
more in tune. But my interests have changed.
46:43
And the obvious is, you know, I don't drink and do drugs
46:45
anymore. But in general, I just kind of
46:48
have my interests have changed, and that's OK.
46:50
It's OK to change our mind I guess is what I'm trying to get
46:53
out here. Well, in, in, in fact, wouldn't
46:55
it be kind of sad if we didn't continue to grow?
46:58
And, and that grow doesn't mean we grow past someone, but we can
47:04
grow apart from them. And so there's compatibility,
47:08
right? There's a a line in the 12 step
47:11
literature that that talks about it.
47:13
It's referencing a romantic relationship, but truthfully, it
47:17
could be any relationship. And it says that there'll come a
47:20
time that you want to have this union or relationship in the
47:25
areas of physical, mental, spiritual and emotional.
47:28
Well, today I am more drawn. I'll find myself in the company
47:32
of people who who I'm more in tune with spiritually, mentally
47:37
and emotionally. And again, that doesn't it you
47:40
were compatible. It doesn't mean that that it's
47:43
not a value judgement on somebody else.
47:46
You know, I will a little different version, but the when
47:50
I first got got sober and I went to my to a business trade show
47:56
that I went to for years and group of men that we always went
48:00
to dinner the first night of this field are about 15 of us.
48:04
And there was always a a lot of drinking.
48:06
Not everybody there certainly was alcoholic or drug addict,
48:09
but that but it was a night that that everybody went pretty hard,
48:13
right And and I got up about 10:00.
48:17
There'd been a a a lot of drinking and and going on.
48:21
I got up about 10:00 to head back to the hotel for and, and
48:25
even some of my good friends were kind of lightheartedly
48:27
making fun of me, right, saying oh look, Steve's got to leave.
48:30
Steve's got to go because we're drinking.
48:33
And, and I said, I said, I promise you guys, I am not
48:36
leaving because you're drinking. I'm leaving because I'm not
48:40
drinking. And I think that's a difference,
48:43
right? Yes, absolutely.
48:45
It's, it's not a judgement and, and, and it's really not.
48:48
And I had really good friends that continue to be good friends
48:51
today. But my kind of joke is I'm more
48:55
likely to meet them for breakfast and dinner these days.
48:58
That's where I'm going to meet more authentically and and we're
49:02
going to have that type of get together rather than kind of the
49:05
way we used to run. That's so funny you say that
49:08
because I, I, when I talk to people who are, you know,
49:10
newcomers and they're, you know, they're mostly, they're worried,
49:14
especially when they're young, they're worried about their, how
49:16
are they going to hang out with their friends and what's that
49:18
going to be like? And I just said, you know, I
49:21
just saw my all my old friends during the day.
49:24
That was kind of what the deal was.
49:25
And I didn't say breakfast, but during the day daylight hours, I
49:28
think it's the way I would say it.
49:29
And I mean, and I've never heard it said the way you you just
49:33
articulated it. Yeah.
49:35
I'm not leaving because you're drinking.
49:36
I'm leaving because I'm not that that that sums it all up.
49:39
And tomorrow I'm going to Charleston to one of my best
49:43
friends is he's, he just got engaged and there's an
49:47
engagement party. It'll be friends from Raleigh,
49:49
friends from living in New York, from high school, from all over
49:53
and who all are, you know, still drinking.
49:56
And, and my relationship with all these people is actually
50:00
better. It's just totally different, you
50:03
know, because I, I, it's just a totally different.
50:05
I'm there for them in ways that I wasn't able to be there for
50:08
him before. But then I'm also not kind of a
50:11
partner in crime the way I used to be, you know, and so and so
50:16
it's just that it's a beautiful thing and it's something that I
50:19
certainly didn't couldn't imagine that happening.
50:21
And it just has and it did never felt like anything that any kind
50:25
of decision I was making. It just kind of like you said,
50:27
just kind of and I wouldn't even necessarily call it a part, but
50:30
just just became a little bit of different relationship.
50:34
Which? Is great.
50:35
Yeah. What?
50:39
So Cumberland Heights? Tell me about the the young men.
50:44
I know it's a bit of an abrupt segue, but I wanted to ask you
50:47
about that well before we ran out of time.
50:49
Well, and I do want to comment you, you've been very generous
50:53
with your praise of Cumberland Heights and and I think
50:56
accurately from my perspective of identifying us as I think an
51:03
old standard, if you will, we've been around since 1966 and a non
51:07
profit, a very 12 step focus. But I think sometimes I don't do
51:12
a good job of recognizing what a high level of sophisticated
51:17
clinical work our team does as well.
51:19
So when I say is that, that the 12 steps isn't everything that
51:24
Cumberland Heights does, but everything that Cumberland
51:27
Heights does is through the lens of the 12 steps.
51:31
And so that's why I'm very much in alignment working there.
51:35
And again, doesn't make US right or better than anybody else, but
51:41
it's, it helps me be clear. One of the things that's great
51:45
about being out there for me is, is we got a good feel of who we
51:48
are and what we do and why we do it.
51:51
I tell people, if you, if you go to a restaurant that serves
51:55
meatloaf and sushi, they're probably not doing one of them
51:57
well. And so we know what's on our
52:02
menu, right? We're not The Cheesecake Factory
52:04
of, of treatment. We, we know what's on our menu.
52:07
We do it well. You ask about the young men and,
52:10
and so we, we've got a on our primary campus there,
52:15
residential campus. We do break up in the young
52:17
men's program, adult men and women and those are segregated
52:22
both the residentially and and in process groups.
52:26
We certainly do some things collectively in terms of
52:32
lectures etcetera. But so right now 18 to 29 is the
52:37
age group that and that 26 to 29 frankly might fall in either
52:43
adult men or young men depending on the life experience that
52:47
they're in and got a great team of our clinical team.
52:54
They're just also relatively young, if you will, the very
52:58
experienced Jeff Wilson who runs that director of that program is
53:04
sober and clean over 15 years himself.
53:09
But very much that those guys are able to identify and
53:16
communicate effectively with that that population.
53:20
And I think you're also very well of our still waters men's
53:23
program that is a 12 step immersion.
53:27
So a lot of our young men come out of they might step down into
53:32
a continuing care into our still waters program, but we're always
53:37
thrilled about the the work that we're able to do with young men
53:40
and, and I I think our team does a great job.
53:44
And one other thing, and I just want to reiterate how much we
53:48
like, know and trust Cumberland Heights.
53:50
We, I mean that's our whole things.
53:51
We only want to work with people and providers and, and treatment
53:54
centers we like know and trust. And you are certainly the top of
53:58
that list. And a lot of our, a lot of our
54:01
listeners have kids who, you know, maybe my friends my age,
54:04
I'm almost 48, have kids who are in high school.
54:07
And tell us about arches a little bit too, please.
54:09
Well, we, you know, Cumberland Heights has been treating
54:12
adolescents since 1985, but in April of 2020, we were able to
54:18
open a separate campus. Prior to that, that group had
54:21
been on campus. We opened Arch Academy, which is
54:26
adolescent. We have two 2 campuses, Ridge
54:30
View and and that has adolescent boys and Harpeth that has
54:36
adolescent girls and 30 beds for boys, 9 beds for girls.
54:45
That's a recent opening. So we're thrilled to be able to
54:47
broaden that reach. But it's a great program that we
54:51
have a fully accredited high school.
54:54
It's a mix of adventure, a high level of clinical.
54:59
Our team there is just fantastic and beyond reproach that high
55:04
school, that educational component is happening not
55:08
online, but on campus. We've got a, a, a, a full
55:12
academic team working. We're in network with the over
55:17
30 commercial insurance providers.
55:19
So in that adolescent setting, we're regularly getting 70 plus
55:25
days of, of insurance coverage for those kids and what they can
55:29
stay up to six months programming in there.
55:32
So it's, I think maybe one of the things I've been most
55:36
excited about and I think the real crown jewel in what we do a
55:40
couple of nights. Awesome.
55:43
Well, Steve, I cannot thank you. We cannot thank you enough.
55:46
I've been wanting to do this with you for a while.
55:48
I'm really glad to not only have you on, but to be able to get to
55:50
see you on a pretty regular basis.
55:53
And I'm always so happy to see you.
55:55
So before we go, just tell us how we find find you and find
55:59
Cumberland. Well, certainly you can reach
56:02
out to to me at I think you got my e-mail address.
56:07
Maybe you post that later, but at 615-210-8084 is my phone
56:13
number. Any anybody feel free to call,
56:15
but it's a professional or personal call and go on their
56:19
website, cumberlandheights.org and you'll see everything about
56:23
our the whole cross section of programs that we have and be.
56:28
I really appreciate you inviting me.
56:30
It's been good for us, for me, that we get to spend more time
56:33
together, and I'm very grateful for you to invite me on the
56:37
program today. Thank you, Sir.
56:40
We really appreciate it. If you liked what you heard
56:43
today or just want to know more, give us a call on 9196708119 or
56:49
visit us at newwatersrecovery.com.
56:52
Thank you.