Latest / Arrivals: A Birth Story Podcast / A home birth VBAC, a midwife mama, community birth, and opening a birth center
Transcript
- Merelise: Before we dive into today's episode, I want to talk to you about something incredibly close to my heart, and that's maternal health. I've spoken a lot about my own experiences on this podcast, especially related to mental health, and how important it is to seek help, whether through therapy or medicine. But we all know that's easier said than done. That's where MARE comes in, a virtual maternal health care clinic serving women from preconception through menopause. MARE was founded by a mom, just like you or me. Who struggled to find the support she needed during her own maternal health journey and wanted to create a better experience for other women. MARE brings together therapists, women's health providers, and pelvic floor specialists who understand the unique challenges women face throughout motherhood. MARE believes women deserve care that looks at the whole picture, not just one symptom or one appointment at a time. Book a free 15-minute phone call today and learn more at Mare-4EveryChapter.com. That's Mare M-E-R-E dash for every chapter dot com. Merelise Wilson: Many. That's what I assumed. Kimberly: Many. Merelise Wilson: All right. All right. Well, welcome to the Arrivals podcast. Today I have midwife, doula, birth educator, co-owner, co-founder of I always want to say Sacred Space. Of Kindred Space, LA birthing Kimberly: Yeah. Merelise Wilson: center. And most importantly, mom and grandmother, Kimberly Darden. Kimberly: Yes, hello, thank you for having me on your podcast. This is exciting and fun. Merelise Wilson: Thank you so much for joining me. Our mutual friend Charles introduced us and I'm just so excited to hear your perspective and hear your birth stories and just dive in. Kimberly: yeah, thank you so much for inviting me on. I talk about and kind of I'm immersed in the birth world pretty much 24-7. I mean, I do try to turn it off when Merelise Wilson: You Kimberly: I go to bed at night, but if I'm on call, And, you know, most of the time I am on call, so it is not possible to turn it off completely. But I really enjoy the work that I do, and it's a lot more varied and more, it's more than just catching babies. It's all of the things that come before and after, and even before I've met a particular client or family, and of course after. They're no longer in our care. You know, it's all of that. It's the whole lifespan. And what's so great about midwifery, and I'm also menopausal now, which I'm proud to talk about because that's Merelise Wilson: Yeah Kimberly: another area that I think... have not really been educated at all about what that stage of their life will look like. do, you know, I feel like we have much more of a focus. I'm gonna last 20 years about childbirth and doulas and midwives and people wanting to get all educated about it. But here I am in menopause. And when I started like looking, going through my changes and looking for information, although I was already a midwife, I really didn't have a lot of... knowledge and when I started digging back in my midwifery books and texts the things that I used to study for my exam I was just shocked to find just like literal just paragraphs kind of like over generalizing the changes of paraminopause and menopause and actor you know and post menopause so now that's another thing that has got me really fired up and excited and and I want every person to know you know, about it and it's just so important. So, you know, the whole lifespan for us, Midwifery kind of encompasses all of that and it makes it interesting. It keeps it interesting for me. Merelise Wilson: Yes, I love to hear that so much. I kind of often joke that, you know, women, we have such fascinating and complex hormonal journeys, you know, in lifespans. And my mom was just over here the other day helping me with my boys who are four and a half and 18 months. And she said, you know, there's a reason women go through menopause. I can't imagine if I had a baby at this age, you know, if she was still able to have kids. She was like, thank God for menopause, you know. It definitely serves a purpose. Kimberly: It's true because I tell you I had my last of my six kids when I was 46 years old. I had a home birth with her and she's now 14 and definitely knew it was my last. It was totally fine. I was not in menopause yet, but I did not know I was in perimenopause Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Kimberly: and also had been for years and was also birthing a child. I tell you that last pregnancy, even though it was pretty smooth, I just felt like, you know, there's a reason why this is mostly for younger bodies, because Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: this body is feeling it all. And I too Merelise Wilson: Yes. Kimberly: now with six grandkids, know, my five-year-old granddaughter, she is very tall and she loves to wrestle with my son, her father. And she came over, you know, I'm doing the grandma thing and she's over hanging out with me. And then she decided she wanted to wrestle with me. And I was not. I was like, no. Merelise Wilson: My wrestling days are done. Kimberly: And she did, she really, she went there and I called my 14 year old, I'm like, you're gonna have to come wrestle with your niece because Merelise Wilson: Hahaha. Kimberly: this body can't handle it anymore. But that said, grandmas are often so important in, and just, it's not just grandmas, but aunties and the village of. women and people that can come and support us when we're raising our children is so crucial. And yes, know, us older ladies, us older folks might not have the energy, but we may have the wisdom and we may have the, you know, we've done a lot of things in our lives and we've figured out a lot of things that we can help make it easier for the folks that are in the process every day of raising their kids. it's, you know, it's kind of getting cliche to say, but it really does take a village. really takes like the whole community coming together to like raise up all of our children. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: so yeah. Merelise Wilson: I was just talking with my postpartum doula recently about how that's changed so much in modern history, like the lack of community and multigenerational living and, you know, people living in communities and people are very isolated now in our individual homes and family units. And I think that's very much at the detriment of mothers and new mothers. And Kimberly: 100%. Merelise Wilson: so something that I one of the things that I'm hoping to do with this podcast is kind of almost create like that oral history or that tradition of passing down birth stories, but in a modern way, since we don't have as much of that just naturally. So yeah, that just reminded me. Yeah. Kimberly: Yes, I love that. I love that. Yes, absolutely. So speaking of birth stories, I have a lot to share and I don't know, let's see, how much time do we have left? Merelise Wilson: Yes. Yes. As much as you want, my time is yours. Kimberly: Well, you strike me as somebody that really likes hearing birth stories. Merelise Wilson: You know it. Yep. All the details. Even before I was a mom, was like that one who was like, tell me everything and then what happened? Yes, all the gory details. Kimberly: I love it, that's so interesting. I have a client right now, she just had her ninth baby and she, know, this is her first experience with midwifery care in this pregnancy, her ninth baby. But she kept asking me, know, like, people call me, people have named me Mama Kim, so she says, Mama Kim, Mama Kim, is it normal that all I wanna do is watch birth? Is it Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: normal? I just want to see the baby. I want to see it all just I and I'm going to become a midwife I'm going to become a midwife because I just love it so much and I the funny thing is that was not me Honestly that Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: that that was not my story that is not how I got into this work and for Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: me I when I Tried to when I look back to see like really what got me even curious about midwives I remember I think it goes back to when I was at my grandmother's house and I might, you know, maybe 11, 12 years old and at back of the day, you know, we had Life Magazine, Jet Magazine and Ebony Magazine and the Sears and Roebuck catalog, right? And so that was our reading material. You know, there was three channels on the TV. My grandfather would have it on like, gosh, what was the name of that guy that played the piano? Anyway. I mean, was just, Merelise Wilson: I know you're talking about, yeah. Kimberly: yeah, was Liberace. know, was Merelise Wilson: Yes! Kimberly: Liberace was on or, know, there wasn't, it wasn't anything due. And so we would read these back issues of things. I remember sitting there one time reading, looking through a life magazine. I happened upon actually a very famous photo series about a midwife named Maude Collin, who was a midwife in Alabama. and she was followed by this photographer, Eugene, can't remember his last name, but they're really stunning black and white pictures of her just taking care of her community. Basically, that's the story the picture's told of this woman taking care of her community. Not only delivering babies or catching babies like us midwives like to call it, but taking care of the sick, taking care of the infirm, checking on old people, bringing, you know, new clothing to the children that were in the community. And I remember saying to myself, I remember thinking about my grandmother who had eight children, seven that survived into adulthood, and that she came from a very rural area of Virginia and that my grandfather also came from rural South. And although my grandmother and grandfather had all these kids, they know that we're now adults, including my mother, who was obviously an adult. she never talked about going to the hospital and that she never talked about doctors or anything. As a matter of fact, I think one of her birth stories with my uncle Selwyn, who was her fifth child, what she told me, you know, it's kind of like, huh? But what she told me was that there was an office. Like, I think she was going to a family doctor with him Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: and there was an office that he had. When she went into labor, she came to the office and she gave birth in his office. and that my uncle was breech and he was close to 11 pounds. I know. And I thought to myself, Merelise Wilson: Wow. Wow. Kimberly: like even as a kid or a teenager, when I'd hear that story, it almost seemed unbelievable. But now, looking back, I think about that story was true. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: she had had four other vaginal deliveries. I'm sure with her fifth kid, know, whatever position he wanted to be in, he most likely was going to come out. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: it just was what it was. And she had three more after that. Merelise Wilson: And then she had three more after that one. Wow. Kimberly: And so it just being around her, I just never thought of birth as a hospital thing. I never, and I didn't know, think Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: my mom actually was born in 1941. I believe she was born in the hospital in Philadelphia, but my grandmother didn't talk about it like that. was just like, was just, they just came out and you know, she breastfed them, whatever. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: She, so in my mind, between my grandmother and this photo journalism series, as I'm hitting my preteen years, I had kind of decided that when it was my time to have babies, if I decided to do that, that I was gonna find somebody like that lady in the magazine that looked like She cared a lot about people and cared a lot about Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: women in a loving way that really spoke to me. And I already knew at that age too that male doctors weren't like my thing. Like I had Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: a very nice, we had a very nice family doctor that took care of us in New Jersey. But as my puberty was, I was heading towards puberty and my mom was like, know, they're probably gonna have to do a different kind of checkup on you. And this is usually what they do. And when you get your period, dah, dah, dah. And I was like, that man is going to do what? Like, check on me how? It did not Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: seem, it was not, I was like, nah, I don't want that. You know, I love my mom because I think she understood. And she was like, okay, I understand, you know, so we just kind of avoided that type of a checkup. But I just felt like I'm not comfortable with this man. I don't, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: know, and so my head was towards female birth attendants. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kimberly: And right and people that didn't look like White coats, know somebody that looked like a community member like a grandmother that had wisdom and so Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: of course at that time I did I just kind of intuitively knew that there are these These midwife people. I don't even know if I knew the name for it, but intuitively I knew that that that they somehow existed When I got married and became pregnant with my eldest daughter who lives in Atlanta now, she's 34. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: I saw it out of midway. And believe it or not, and I think it's the funniest story looking back because I literally looked in the yellow pages. Merelise Wilson: my gosh. Kimberly: 30 only 34 years 35 years ago. I mean we didn't have that we weren't using internet We weren't using Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: mobile phones. So I'm like, okay, I guess I figured out it's called a midwife and then I just okay midwife midwife and I just Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: like looked in the yellow pages I was living in Brooklyn at the time and sure enough I found one midwife listed one midwife group listed and they Merelise Wilson: Well. Kimberly: these really cool midwives or I didn't know if they were cool I just hope they were but they ended up being cool. It Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: was like a group of like five midwives and a doctor. I Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: was like perfect So I signed up with them. I started getting care with these midwives in Brooklyn, New York. And everything was going great actually. And unfortunately, or fortunately, it's not even unfortunate. It's just, I think at the time I felt it was unfortunate. But when I started going into labor with my daughter, I went into their office as they instructed me to do, and then they examined me and they said, They started looking around at each other like, uh-oh. So I'm like, huh, what's going on there? So they said, can you sit down in waiting room? We're gonna talk to you in just a minute. So I'm like, okay. They're not telling me anything. This very nice nurse that worked at the office, her name was Nurse Pink. I can never Merelise Wilson: Hehe. Kimberly: forget that. And she was the only black person that worked in that office. And it was, she kind of took me aside and said, honey, your baby's breached. you're gonna have a C-section today. And I had no idea, Merelise Wilson: And you had no idea, but leading up to that. Kimberly: but I did know that the baby was breeched because they had told me in the prior appointment, maybe two weeks before, and I think I skipped an appointment for some reason, and I just didn't know the implication of Merelise Wilson: Hmm Kimberly: having a baby in a breeched position as we're heading towards labor. They certainly told me, do these exercise, move your body like this, do Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Kimberly: these different things, and I think I probably... came home and did that one night for half an hour and just was like, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: okay, whatever. I did not know that this would prevent me in my case, prevent me from Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: attempting a vaginal delivery. And mostly because not because that wasn't available, but it wasn't available to me in that situation I was with that particular OBGYN practice and midwife practice that they weren't delivering breech babies vaginally. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Kimberly: So off I went to Methodist Hospital. I was planning to birth there anyway in hospital with midwives. And I remember one of the midwives saying to me, I mean, I literally did not know what a C-section was. Okay. I was having Merelise Wilson: my gosh. Are you having contractions? Kimberly: contractions. I was in very much an early labor, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: but I really did not know what a C-section was. I didn't know anyone in my family who had had one. Merelise Wilson: you didn't know if it was gonna be surgery or wow. Kimberly: No, I did not know. So I went to the waiting room of the office and I just looked in, I was looking through these different pregnancy magazines that they had there and I found an article on C-section and I read it while I was waiting for them to tell me what my next steps were and I'm like, Merelise Wilson: by yourself. Kimberly: yeah. I was like, I'm gonna have surgery. I just couldn't Merelise Wilson: my god. Kimberly: wrap my head around it, but they sent me, sent us off to the hospital. I'll never forget it was like a serious thunderstorm going on and I'm having contractions and then eventually, know, there, you know, one of the midwives was there and she said, well, let's just put it this way. You're kind of getting the easy way out. Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: And I didn't know what she meant. I'm like, huh? Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: Okay. I think I asked her like, what's it going to be like? And she said, let's just say it's kind of the easy way out. So, so yeah. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Had you been able to have a vaginal birth? Were you planning to get an epidural or was that an option at the time for you? Yeah. Kimberly: planning to get an epidural. I wasn't planning to get an epidural. I was planning to try and have a physiologic birth, yeah, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: without medication. I was Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: definitely open to that because I was kind of like a natural girly, you know? I was kind of like, yeah, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: that appealed to me. And I was one of those weirdos that was like, want to feel what this feels like. So what happened... Merelise Wilson: I don't think that's weird. I'm one of those weirdos too. Kimberly: I know, I mean, I can't tell you that when I had menstrual cramps that I loved those, but I mean, I went through them and Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: I had some pretty bad menstrual cramps growing up. But I was able to figure out how to manage it and I was able to listen to my body during those times and figure out what I needed. And I needed two days off to manage these cramps and have all the hot water bottles and all the things. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: So I didn't feel like, I felt like... I just wanted to know what it was going to feel like. just was kind of into it. So not having the opportunity to see what that might feel like did feel disappointing. And honestly, I did ask the physicians at the hospital if they would allow me to deliver vaginally or just let me try. And they pretty Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: much said, you know, well, you know, if her head gets stuck, then that's it. So I really wasn't. that educated on birth. I didn't have enough information to push back and Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: my partner, my husband certainly did, my husband at the time. And so, you know, what do you say? You're like, okay, cut me open. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly: So what I, but what I learned through that experience and it was really nothing that I like was ready or prepared for. At the end of the day, through it all, you know, first of all, it's kind of quick. Kind of a quick procedure. And it's also a fallacy that it's painless or that it has no sensation. Because Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm, yeah. Kimberly: even with epidural pain relief, right before they pulled Yanni out, my daughter Yanni out of me, kind of helped her come out of me, I could feel a tremendous amount of pressure from her being pulled from my body and... And I experienced an out of body experience as she was, I think it was like right before or right after I kind of feel like I kind of came out of my body and floated above my body a little bit and Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: then came back down and I felt connected to God. felt like it is really such an experience to have your body opened and then Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: another person comes out of it, you know, that, Merelise Wilson: Yes. Kimberly: yeah. So I felt a lot of things and then afterwards, I felt a lot of pain. I felt a lot of pain post, you know, immediate post delivery with my C-section. remember not being prepared for the, like the shakes and not being prepared for feeling like I had been through major surgery. And also it took me weeks to understand, fully understand that that was major surgery, that that wasn't Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: just, you know, but I, one of the things that really, really stood with me, in reflecting on that experience was that I realized that I had given birth. it did, Merelise Wilson: You did it. Kimberly: yes, and that C-section didn't make it not birth. know, C-section is birth two. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: And, you know, was like, it's like giving birth out of a different opening. Yeah. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly: so I, it was a lot of things I just had to come to terms with, with that experience because, and I'd also had like a slight pre, I had a premonition that I was gonna have a C-section. The only one I had in my pregnancy. because I went to take a tour of the hospital and we walked into a room which was where they showed us like, I don't know if it was actually the surgery room because those are usually really sterile, but they walked us into some room and I just had this like thing go through my body like that it kind of gave me the chills a little bit Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: and I didn't really know what it was about, but I kind of got like out of breath and I'm I gotta get out of this room. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: And that was like on the tour of the hospital. So. Merelise Wilson: Mmm, and you didn't even know what a c-section was but something you knew that yeah Kimberly: Yeah, something, something. Yeah, I was having like, I really believe it was a premonition. But then I was in recovery, know, so you're in recovery Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: for a little while, slightly separated from Yanni. You know, and honestly, I heard her crying. I know she was great and her father was holding her. But I was so like taken over by the shakes and the pain and Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: this new experience that I wasn't really. prepped for that I was like, she's fine, but I have to get myself together. don't, I wasn't like, let me hold my baby or whatever. She's like, okay. If she's okay, Merelise Wilson: Right. Yeah. Kimberly: okay, what's happening? Okay. You know, I'm in a lot of pain and you know, and just kind of getting my pain managed. And then, and yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't Merelise Wilson: You weren't fully present in the moment. Kimberly: like, let me bond with my baby right now. I was like, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: let me get myself together because I don't even know what's going on. Wasn't frightened, but I was just in pain. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: then I remember when I, back in 91, they still, they didn't really do rooming in, which is when you keep your baby in your room. They weren't really Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Right. Kimberly: doing that. She was in the nursery. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: the interesting thing is one of the reasons why I wanted to have physiologic birth was because my mom had talked about my birth in 1965 where all the moms had scopolamine and they were given a drug to... that didn't really take the pain away, just gave them amnesia. And then Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: we, as the children of our mamas, we were taken away and put in the nursery. And when my mom told me my birth story at the age that I got interested in that, I felt that was wrong. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: I just felt something, a visceral feeling of like, wow, like that's not cool. Like I wasn't with you. I was Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: in another room. And my mom said, you know, like they woke her up eventually and said, you have a girl. And I just felt like, well, that's not right. That's not good. I don't want that to happen to me. So, so here I am and I'm having, I had a C-section and my daughter's in the, you know, it goes to the nursery and I go to recovery and we didn't have any immediate skin to skin or any of those things. And I just was like, okay, just trying to recover from. would it happen and then eventually after a couple of hours, guess, or however long, like, okay, where's my baby? Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: Bring me my baby. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. And were they able to bring her to you at that point? Kimberly: They did, you know, you gotta wait. I remember waiting Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: and like, I remember being in the hospital by myself and Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: just waiting for them to bring me my baby and they eventually brought her to me and, you know, tried to do the whole nursing thing. and it hurt like hell. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: And you know, I think it hurt like hell. And then I maybe tried a couple of times. knew I didn't want her to have formula. So I said, I asked the nurses, can you bring me sugar water? No, I said, I don't Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: want formula. They said, okay, we'll bring you sugar water. So I remember feeding my baby bottles of sugar water. Something I would never, yes. They were like, well, she Merelise Wilson: Isn't it crazy how things change? wow. Kimberly: doesn't want formula. Okay, well, she can give her sugar water. Merelise Wilson: Wow. Were you eventually able to successfully nurse or did you? Kimberly: Well, yes, you know, I, I, was my plan to breastfeed and I knew that my grandmother had done it and my mom had done it and it was my plan to do it. Once I was discharged, I mean, of course I continued to work on the breastfeeding in the hospital, but this was before lactation consultants. Merelise Wilson: I was going to say. Kimberly: Yeah. And I went home with, and my mom was there helping and she had breastfed. I'm like, okay, my mom's going to show me what to Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: So my mom did help me out, but she kinda forgot to mention the part that when she breastfed us, she was in pain the entire two or three months that she breastfed us. So she showed me how to latch my baby, but it was causing more pain. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: I had a lot going on. I was recovering, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: the breastfeeding was so painful, and no lactation consultants around. I just had, I thought I had some. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: And I did, it wasn't like I had a terrible home life, but it was just, I didn't have like targeted support for what I was going through. And just as a side note, it gives me a lot of empathy for folks like your mom, my mom, all the moms out there, all the grandmas out there, great grandmas who have many who have had incredibly similar experiences or just have no education about any of this and no support. And so you got to do, you know, our moms and our grandmas, did. the best I know how to do. And Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: we really can't say, well, you know, she should have done it like this or that. I mean, they just did the, like, how could my mother walk into a hospital in 1965 as a black woman and say, yeah, I'm not getting scopolamine? You know, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: it's like, you know, she's just walking into the hospital, like, they're, they're going to take care of me. You just, know, that, that, that, that, that thing that we are, we are, that's forced down our throats, trust your doctor. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: is that is what we did and as women and you know it's a lot of that like it's accepting that okay well you know internalizing like maybe I don't know anything maybe they know what's best I don't know and you Merelise Wilson: Right? Right. Kimberly: know we just weren't educated you know I just was telling a friend of mine we talking about I think we were talking about this earlier today about how you know my mom said when she you know even got her period she didn't even know what that was Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: she didn't know what it was and so You know, whereas for me, they started, you know, showing you a special film and like, you know, was it sixth grade or something? Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: But so things change and, and, even Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: as recent as 91 in Brooklyn, New York, it really wasn't very, considered progressive. weren't talking about duelists back then. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: and things like that. So anyway, my daughter, Yanni, one of the other things that I realized from that experience was actually I didn't feel traumatized by the C-section at all. I don't feel like it was a traumatic C-section. It was surprising. It was different. It wasn't what I expected. I had pain. I had things that I had to get through. That was one thing for me personally. It wasn't traumatic. But also that it didn't make me love my daughter any completely able to bond with her, albeit it took several months to get through that early postpartum, which is just so difficult for many folks. I it's just such a different world. I tell my parents, it's like, when you have a kid, it's not like... I said, you know how it feels when you move to another town? or another city or another state or another country. I said, this is like moving to another planet. Merelise Wilson: Yes. Completely and like having a body transplant at the same time, you know, like I don't even our brain transplant is more like it I felt like my brain had Kimberly: Everything. Merelise Wilson: left the building Kimberly: yeah, the brain changes. I was just at this fundraiser for the Women's Foundation for Women's Health. And Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: that's just as an aside, it was so interesting because they brought out the stats and they said that less than 8 % of funding goes to women's health funding. And there's been no studies on the changes in women's brain throughout pregnancy, postpartum. there's no studies. And so they're trying to raise money to study these things that impact millions and millions of people all over the world that we have never studied before. And Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: you said it, like your brain leaves the premises. know, nothing is the same ever again. And Merelise Wilson: now. Kimberly: that's another one of my sayings is postpartum is forever. Merelise Wilson: Yes, it is. It so is. And speaking of sayings too, our mutual friend Charles, going back what you were saying about only 8 % of funding, it just blows my mind because something he always says is you either are a mama or you have a mama. So it's like, why are people not talking? Kimberly: That's right. Merelise Wilson: Why do we not care more about this stuff? But yeah. Kimberly: It's true. It's true. I mean, that is just that's brilliant from Charles and absolutely right. And that is Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: that is that is the truth. But I feel so grateful for that experience because I do believe that even though I was attracted to midwifery, I think that my C-section was like the catalyst for me to was part of the catalyst of the things that propelled me into wanting to actually go into midwifery and become a midwife. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: One of the things, the big things, the big takeaways from my first birth was that I didn't, I was like, I never want to do that again. Like I never want to have a C-section Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: again. I mean, I was pretty much decided that I probably wasn't going to have any more kids. Ha ha ha, I have six. But yeah, Merelise Wilson: Had you really at the time? Kimberly: at the time I was like, this is it. But a lot of it was because that experience was so tough. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: So I can understand when people have a tough birth experience and they have to rethink like if they want to have any more children and it's sad too Merelise Wilson: Right? Kimberly: because if someone especially if there's even more trauma involved, you know, but I realized after a while, I think by the time my daughter was two, I could Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: see like, okay, like she's over there playing by herself right now. I actually have five minutes to myself. And I think she needs a friend to play with. I think she needs a sibling. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: And so I started coming into my consciousness about having another child. And so that brought up, too, like, I don't want to go back to the hospital. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: I felt if I go back to the hospital, I'm going to have another C-section, and I don't want that. Merelise Wilson: And were you still going to the same practice? Were you seeing them kind of regularly or had you got switched practices? Kimberly: I think I had switched, I had gone to them initially because Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: I knew them. But they only did births in the hospital. It was a certified nurse midwife practice and I just Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kimberly: didn't want to birth in the hospital. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: So I wanted a midwife but I didn't want to birth in the hospital and I really didn't know what that was going to look like. So a friend of mine said, why don't you try Birth Center? And I said Birth Center, what's that? She gave me a phone number for a birth center in New York City. I called them up. I was very excited. I'm like, okay, this is gonna work. It's it's a center for birth. It's not a hospital. I called them up and giving them my history and I gave them my whole history and they're like, oh, I'm so sorry, but we can't take women who've already had a prior C-section. And listen, it's not us midwives. It's the hospitals that back us up won't allow us to have, you know. to be back in our birth center. I was very, very, very disappointed and very frustrated Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: and feeling like, like I just, again, I just couldn't see myself birthing in hospital. I didn't know what I was going to do. I was like, well, maybe there's another birth center. And there really wasn't in our area. I think there was one other in New York that was in the Bronx and I didn't even know anything about the Bronx. So I just couldn't see how that was going to happen. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: But one of my friends came to the rescue and she said, why don't you have a home birth? And I thought to myself, I mean, I didn't even know what that was. Another thing I didn't know anything about, it wasn't on my radar. I didn't know if it was a legal thing. I didn't know anything about it. But she gave me the number of two midwives. I called one, the first one I called, I just knew she was my midwife. I didn't even call Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: the second one. So the first one I called her and the midwife, her name is Tyoma Allison and she still practices today. That kid just celebrated his birthday today and I had a home that I Merelise Wilson: Aww. Kimberly: had a home birth with, he's 32. Yeah, we just had a little bit. Thank you. Merelise Wilson: happy birthday to him. And happy mama's day to you. Kimberly: And here's my, my son was born at home in Brooklyn 32 years ago today. We Merelise Wilson: Wow. Kimberly: had a beautiful, I had a beautiful experience. My midwife was amazing. She is amazing. She is well educated but doesn't want people to know about her. She's like, that's not the most interesting thing about me basically. She's a very spiritual, very roots woman, just like, man, she's just fantastic. She's originally from Jamaica and she practices in New York and Jamaica. Still to this day, she's Merelise Wilson: wow. Kimberly: still practicing. I actually was one of her first births after she got licensed. Merelise Wilson: well. Kimberly: So when I came to her, I just asked her how she was able, know, you she had kids and I asked her about her birth experiences and her first child was born in the hospital and she said with her second, she didn't want to go to the hospital so she just gave birth to her at home in her tub without any hope. Merelise Wilson: Just simple as that. Kimberly: And I thought, well, if you can birth your own kid, like I'm sure you could help me birth mine and I was sold. Merelise Wilson: Did it make you nervous at all that you were going to be attempting a V-back, this thing that the birth center doctors didn't want to support with someone who hadn't had that much experience thus far as a midwife? Or were you just felt so good about her you were like, it's going to be good? Good. Kimberly: Yeah, not at all. Like I knew she was the one. I knew it, I knew it. I felt it in my heart. I felt it in my spirit. just, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: she's just so phenomenal. If you ever meet her or you ever, she's just, you'll know. It's like, she's not even like from this world. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, I know those people are magic. Yeah. Kimberly: She's just amazing. It's very interesting that you asked that because what had happened was I got all the way up to seven months pregnant. had now I had my midwife. felt very confident. And my husband's friends who he went to college with both who had become doctors were visiting. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: One was a, husband was an ophthalmologist and the wife was an OB. So they came and visited us when I was seven months pregnant and they said, where are you having this baby? I said, my God, you're going to be so excited to hear I'm having a baby at home. Merelise Wilson: Crickets, crickets. Kimberly: and my husband's friend, the OB, was horrified. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: She said, and she said, well, why don't you just go to a birth center? I said, well, I tried, but they wouldn't let me because of my C-section and da-da-da-da-da. She said, just lie to them and tell them that scar was from exploratory surgery. Merelise Wilson: Yeah Kimberly: This is a true story. Merelise Wilson: my gosh. Kimberly: And so I'm now totally dismayed. Now I'm like crestfallen. I'm just like, my God, am I making a terrible decision? We're still entertaining these folks at our house, right? thinking inside. And I remember going into the kitchen and her husband was hanging out with my husband and he pulled me aside and he said, Hey, listen, I want you to know that you're probably going to be okay. You know, the risk for your risk that my wife is probably worried about is the risk of uterine rupture. But the Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: truth of the matter is like a less than 1 % chance. you know, out of a thousand that you would have a uterine rupture after having a cesarean birth. You know, he's like, you have good spacing between your pregnancies and you're probably going to be fine. You're going to be fine. You know, my wife deals with a lot of people who are very sick, very, you know, have a lot of risk factors and she has been sued a lot. And Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: that's really where she's coming from. So I don't want it to frighten you. So that should have been rude. It was nice, Merelise Wilson: nice yeah Kimberly: but you know what I was thinking? You're an eye doctor. Merelise Wilson: What do you know? Kimberly: So it didn't really make me feel that comfortable because again, she was the OB, he was the eye doctor. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: And I thought, you know. There's he doesn't know what he's talking about. I how can I trust him and his wife is like completely on the other page I just I couldn't wrap my head around it. So funny enough I stopped like I got really nervous to call my midwife and she was calling to make it another appointment with me and I remember Avoiding her calls and then finally she was like, hey, you know, like I'm seven months pregnant. She's like, hey, know Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: We really need to check in and it's something wrong And so I told her what had happened And what she did at that time is she just walked me through like what an emergency would look like. What a transfer would look like. What kind of things would make an emergency? What kind of things would not be an emergency? You know, she explained to me that not everything is an emergency. Sometimes, you know, most things aren't. But with that thorough explanation, I was then feeling, okay. And she said, you live a block away from Brooklyn Hospital. She's like, you Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: know, she said, if you need to go there in an emergency, we... probably still take an ambulance. She said, you get into surgery before someone who's already there waiting to be seen would get in. So she said, know, so she just reassured me and then I felt better. And then before you know it, before you knew it, was, know, a few months later I was in labor and I really wasn't thinking about any of that. I was just thinking about this experience of like the labor, feeling the labor and feeling excited that my son was gonna be born soon. Merelise Wilson: Something else, something I forgot to ask you with your first birth and with this one was, where were you in the grand scheme of your due date with your first and your second? Were you late? Were you early? I know it was different back then in the sense that they didn't worry as much about going past your due date. I was three weeks late, for example, my poor mom. But, I know with VVACs also they prefer for you not to be induced. So anyways, yeah, just wondering where were you in terms of your due date? Kimberly: Yeah, there was no arrived trial then. the Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: arrived trial, is that I'll refrain from using any expletives on your podcast that just really has pushed everybody Merelise Wilson: Now you can. Kimberly: into induction in, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: for all various reasons, but, that wasn't around then. And, but I, luckily I didn't get too much. because I always went into labor like a writer, like usually like a few days after my due date or something like that. But I Merelise Wilson: Okay. Kimberly: remember with my son, just my own anxiety, like his due date was March 7th. And I remember like on March 1st or something, I was like, can I take Castor Oil? And she said, well, wait a second, like, why do you want to take Castor Like, why? And I was like, well, cause I'm Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: almost at my due date, but he's not here yet, you know. The same conversations I have with my clients all the time as she was having with me. And she said, well, you know, and she just talked me through it. And she said, maybe if you go further past your due date, then we can talk about that. But she's like, everything, there's no reason to. And so, you know, I listened to her and he came a couple of days after his due date. So yeah. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, yeah. All right, well thank you. Sorry to interrupt. Keep going. Kimberly: No, that's fine. But yeah, that experience was definitely, you know, it was great. I'm one of those people that for a lot of my birthing experiences, I have a lot of prodromal labor. So I'm one of those Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: people that kind of has contractions for three to five days before I'm like even really, really, really, really in labor. So Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: that was an experience. I had to understand that just, you know, because of course I kept checking in with my midwife and she's, you my contractions would be like, Irregular but they were coming and you know, I'd walk and I do all the things but it felt like well and I call my midwife and she's like Make sure you get some rest keep eating, you know and Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: and So that was an experience but eventually I went into labor. I remember my I finally figured out like Hmm, maybe there's some things on my nesting list. I need to that. haven't checked off yet like Let me while I'm waiting for this baby, let me think, am I, do I really have everything done that I need to have done or I want to have done before he comes? And so I busy myself with some additional projects. and this last big project that I had, funny enough, I, as I completed that last project, it was for like a job I had done for somebody as I completed it. And one of my good friends from college called me and I got to giggle in on the phone and next thing you know, my water broke. And I'm like, I gotta get off the phone. And then the real, like the real active labor contractions hit after that. And I think that was like six o'clock in the evening. And by 11, my son just Merelise Wilson: Wow. Kimberly: reminded me yesterday by 11 45 or something that night he was born. Merelise Wilson: wow, that pretty quick. Kimberly: It was quick once it kicked in it was pretty quick and Yeah, it was was great It was hard. The hardest part was transition like people always talk about I remember my midwife just like digging her fist into my lower back like giving me counter pressure It seemed like the only thing that could relieve that intense pressure that was happening as he was moving down and You know shortly after that. I remember moving to the room We had set up a whole different room in my house to birth him in, but I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: gravitated to this other room, we were living in a brownstone, that was a warm, cozy warm room, right? So like in my Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: head, I'm gonna have the birth in this room where it's like, I have the baby stuff set up and da da Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: da da. But my body went to this totally different room that was just warm and cozy and, you know, totally makes sense. to me right now. was winter. I was in New York, you know, I'm in LA now it's 80 degrees but you know in March when he was born it was snowing and Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: it was cold and yeah so I was in that nice warm room and pushed him out in that room and the next thing you know it was like I mean I just he was there and he was a good Merelise Wilson: Wow. Kimberly: size and my first order was 6'2 and I think my son was like 8'15. Merelise Wilson: Wow. Wow. Kimberly: But yeah, so it was just a really amazing experience and really no complications. I had a little tear, but other than that, nothing, no complications whatsoever. And I have to say, by day two, postpartum, I felt like a superwoman. I I knew that Merelise Wilson: I know. Kimberly: I was postpartum and I just was busy resting and laying in the bed and nursing my kid and just being cared for by my family. and who also were caring for my older daughter while I, you know, you know how it when you have a new one. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: but I just felt so incredible. Like I couldn't believe how great I felt. I just, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: I just, it was complete opposite of the previous birth. And I even felt like, I felt like sexy. I was like, I feel sexy. I feel like. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kimberly: I feel like I am woman, hear me roar. It's just so Merelise Wilson: Yes, totally. Kimberly: in my body and so it's just like, yes. Merelise Wilson: owning it. like, I get that. Kimberly: Yeah, and so from, then I remember conversations I had with my midwife after that and I think maybe in our last visit or her last check in with me, I said, I think I wanna be a midwife. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: And she said, you would make a wonderful midwife. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Kimberly: And then that just meant so much to me because I'm like, how does she even know that? Like, just, how does she even know that? But I also knew like, not right now. I Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: have these little kids, like, let me get through this. But I just felt in my spirit, like one day I would like to do this. And so Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: that was really life-changing for me and definitely put me on a different trajectory with my life. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: and gave me an idea of like, would like to help people do this. So cut long story short, the funny thing is I also started having La Leche League meetings in my house. So La Leche League is a breastfeeding organization that's been around for a long time. And Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: I used to go to a La Leche League meeting and my La Leche League leader had had home births. And so she was very, she was so like encouraging. She was like, just do the home birth. Like you don't need to go to hospital like this. Give me a break. It's better. She's like, it's better. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: Like, okay. but we used to have the meetings at her house and then we switched it to my house and just, it was just so magnificent, like being with other moms and their babies and just, you could just feel the power of Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: the power of us. And when we gather and what happens when we gather, you know, my La Leche meeting, was like once a month, it was supposed to be like from 10 to 12. People would not leave my house. I did not have good boundaries. I think like they would, sometimes they were there till like 4 p.m. Merelise Wilson: Just chit chatting and nursing babies sounds like heaven honestly. It sounds great. Yes. Kimberly: it is heaven. And you just find every little piece of food you can find and people Merelise Wilson: Yes. Kimberly: bring snacks. It was heaven because we were healing in community. Merelise Wilson: Yes, and you're all in the same phase, same chapter, going through Kimberly: Yes. Merelise Wilson: it together. Kimberly: And it didn't matter. And the cool thing about the Lalitjali group is not everybody had like a natural birth. was people, were C-sections, there were people there with, you know, all types of births. And we were focusing on like the raising and the feeding and the nurturing. Merelise Wilson: Right? Kimberly: So we could all be on the same page about that and hold space for each other's birth experiences that look wide and varied. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly: that eventually got me interested in supporting other women and in terms of in the doula arena, I started learning, you know, knowing what doulas were and learning about what they did. And I really was interested in doing postpartum doula work, which a Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: lot of people wanted to do birth. And I was like, I like the postpartum part because Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: at the time I was still thinking birth was kind of like messy, but not really. But I was just like Merelise Wilson: Was your second birth messy? Yeah. Kimberly: other people's fluids. I wasn't really like. feeling like I was into that at that time. Those type of, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly: was just like, it's like stuff and blood and things. was like, mm. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: But postpartum, I had great breastfeeding experiences once I got over the challenges with my first kid. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: She nursed for three years, you know, and I had great experiences. Merelise Wilson: Aww. Kimberly: And so I, and I just knew how to, I figured out I could support people in the postpartum. So I did start doing postpartum dual work all over Brooklyn. And it was a great mommy job because I could just leave for a couple of hours and, you know, it also was great because my house was kind of like felt very chaotic, but I could like go to somebody else's house and make it nice. And I can help them Merelise Wilson: Yes. Kimberly: calm their chaos and I can leave my chaos behind. Merelise Wilson: Yes. Kimberly: So it was kind of like a getaway. Like I'd get away from my kids and go like help somebody else's house get pulled together because you know, I needed a break. It was a break in a weird way and I made a little money for my family. So. But eventually people started asking me to come to their births. Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: And that kind of made me nervous because I really wasn't ready to go to births. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: I also, just didn't want to be away from my kids. They were, they were young, you know, when I was started Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: dueling, they were. they were still pretty young. So my next birth story was my daughter Tondi and she's 28 and she was also a home birth with the same midwife, Tayoma. And this time Tayoma brought with her a student midwife named Karen. And then my friend Susan Rachel Condon, who is a doctor midwife right now in Poughkeepsie, New York. She was a massage therapist back then doing prenatal and postpartum massage. Merelise Wilson: Bye. Kimberly: And she came, she kind of acted as my doula. I had never had a doula before. So Susan Rachel Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: said, I'll to your birth. So she did. And I mean, man, that was the best birth ever. I mean, it was. Merelise Wilson: bet you all your people, all your women around you, how amazing. Kimberly: And it was just, it was a lot faster. And then I Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Kimberly: had Susan Rachel who knew the body. So she was doing things like the double hip squeezes and Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Ugh. Kimberly: she was doing stuff that I had never, I was like, I feel so much better than, you Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: And so the only problem with that birth was that my eldest daughter's birthday is May 31st. And this third baby that was coming was, I started being in labor on May 31st. And I just knew that my eldest daughter would not want to share her birthday. So the Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: biggest challenge I had was to like make it past midnight on May 30th. Merelise Wilson: haul that baby in. That can be really hard if you get that fetal ejection reflex. Kimberly: And we had already planned this whole birthday party for my eldest. She was turning six. We had this whole birthday party. All the grandparents were in town. Food Merelise Wilson: Aw. Kimberly: was cooked. She had a dance recital and a birthday party after her dance recital on June 1st. Well, guess what? I'm in labor. But I had my women around, right? And I told their dad, just Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: take her to the recital, please. I'll be fine. And they were there with me. They did the recital early, they came back, I'm still in labor. And then they were gonna have a party later, right? But anyway, there's two floors to the house, God. And I was on the upstairs and I ended up giving birth to her probably about like quarter to 12 in the day. then it was just, everything was fine. And then she just was nursing and I was just recovering and then. They still have the party downstairs. Merelise Wilson: Wow. Wow, that's amazing. Kimberly: They had the party. Yeah, I mean, it was great. They had all this food, so they kept bringing me plates. I mean, was great. It was literally. then very, you know, the like closest members of my family and my friend group, because they had been bringing their, they were bringing their kids to the party. Like there was like a few select people that were able to come up and just say, hi. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: And Tondi, her name means loved by all, Tondiway. And it was like all these little special people that were very respectful after the party was over. They just came one by one. adored her. just adored her and just oh it was just like she was loved by all and and that was it you know Merelise Wilson: I love that. Kimberly: and it was great so she so I have a May 31st and then a June 1st so and Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: I think it worked out great because I know that they wouldn't want to share they both would want to share their birthday. That was my Merelise Wilson: Definitely not sisters, yes. Kimberly: fourth baby journey she was born in the hospital why because we had moved to Virginia and I didn't have any cash to pay for a midwife. We bought a house and there was just no extra money. the Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: midwife from Virginia, when I moved to Virginia, I sought out midwives and I Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: found the amazing Marsha Jackson and her birth center, Birth Care of Women's Health in Alexandria, Virginia. I mean, this woman's a legend. She has now finally retired, but her birth center has been open for over 45 years. At the time it was, you know, however, you know, 20 something years. I went, I, because, you know, you go to a new town, you want to know who are the midwives, who. the where's the Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: L'Alecha League people? Where is it? You know, and that is a good way to get plugged in. So I did that immediately. And then once I was pregnant, I didn't have the money to pay her or go to her. And I was so disappointed. But Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: a friend of mine told me about a doctor that was friendly and, you know, pretty cool and whatever. So I went ahead. Merelise Wilson: Low intervention. Kimberly: Yeah, exactly. So I went ahead and did the hospital birth with him. And the funny thing was I might one of my best friends, Barb Coca. what acted as my doula and they didn't know what to make of me because you know of course I didn't want anything. They're like Ivy no Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly: you know do you want to know do you know do you want that Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: no and I remember the nurse that I had was pretty frustrated because nothing she offered I wanted and it had nothing to do with her I just didn't want it I didn't need it so at some Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: point during my labor I could feel the urge to push was coming at the time. I didn't really identify as urge to push. It's just like it's getting more pressure. could feel the baby was coming closer. And Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kimberly: I usually always hop in the shower. I'm like a shower person. So Merelise Wilson: Okay. Kimberly: here I'm at the hospital. I'm like, I'm gonna go in the shower now. So I'm like, I'm not attached to anything. So I get up, I go to the shower and the kid's dad was there. But the doctor wasn't there yet, know, cause they don't come till the last minute. So, but I told the nurses, okay, baby's coming. So you better call the doctor and then like, okay. I don't think they really believe me. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: But anyway, I got in the shower and I mean, I probably progressed to complete in the shower. I was complete in the shower. Probably I was in there for 15, 20 minutes or something like that. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: And so when the doctor came in, came in. Well, this is the story that my friend told me because I was in the shower. She said the doctor came in and he looked straight at the bed and then he was so confused that the person who was about to push was not in the bed. He was just like, Merelise Wilson: He's like, I've never seen this. Kimberly: all right, he's like standing there like with his gloved up hands ready to catch a baby and like the patient Merelise Wilson: Hahaha. Kimberly: is not in the bed. So they were like, she's in the shower, she's in the shower. And he's like, So he says like to my, can you bring her from the shower to here? So he picks me up, he takes me out of shower, lifts me up and carries me to the bed. They put my feet in the stirrups and he tells me to push. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. What did you think about that? Kimberly: I I was pushing out a baby, but I was thinking. this isn't comfortable Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: to push on your back. I mean, I was like, I gotta get off my back. This is uncomfortable. He's like, your heart Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: rate's going down and we need you there. You just gotta push her out. Her heart rate's going down. So I just pushed so hard, pushed her out, whatever, gave birth. I remember in the, had my daughter, I remember in the postpartum, the nurse, the lovely nurse, kept asking me, now she's asking me, do I want to ice pack on my perineum? I'm like, no. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: I don't want to, I'm fine, just leave me alone. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: But the interesting thing was that pushing in that position, it really, I don't even know if there's a name for it, but I couldn't walk. I couldn't walk for a couple of weeks without assistance. Merelise Wilson: Wow. Kimberly: Like I couldn't barely stand. was like my hips got, I would say it felt like my hips got blown out. Like Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Mmm. Kimberly: I could not stand. Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: I'm in the hospital holding onto the rail to get, and I'm just like, hey, I can't walk. And I remember once, and when I was discharged, and he was like, you'll be fine, it'll go away. Like literally, that's what they said. And then when I remember when I got discharged and I came home now, I have four kids, I'm four kids now. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: I crawled from the van, crawled up our little steps and just sat in the middle of my living room and with my baby in my lap and my other three kids, you know, jumping around me because they, mom is home now. And... Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: I'm like, how am I going to take care? I cannot even walk. Like, how am I gonna, like, I felt so overwhelmed. But what I learned with that experience was the beauty of being in the bed postpartum. Now, I think I had done a good job of staying in the bed with my other postpartums, but this time I really couldn't get up and do anything. And I remember just kind of being in my Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: little cave with my daughter, Journey, for two weeks. I am just two weeks of shades drawn. I'm in my cave with her nursing and everyone has to help. I had to, I really learned the art of delegation in that experience. I learned how to call on people who maybe weren't in my immediate circle or you're beyond my family, beyond my immediate circle and ask for help. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: And that was a huge lesson for me. And also I had more kids. Like, it's not like I'm just having one kid over and over again. Like Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: we're adding two, right? So I had to ask for people to take my kids out, like hang out with them. I had to, exactly, Merelise Wilson: Take him to dance class, take him to whatever, yeah. Kimberly: exactly, pick up, all those things. I remember one of my dear friends just drove like 45 minutes from her home to my home just to clean my kitchen. She didn't Merelise Wilson: No. Kimberly: even need to come and check on me. She didn't need to check on the baby. She was like, let me do something. I was like, I think my kitchen needs to be cleaned. I don't know. haven't seen, and she's like, I'll come and clean your kitchen. And I mean, those are the things that I remember as like the most precious, priceless gifts that people could give. It's not about the stuff. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. No. Kimberly: I keep telling people all the time, like, this is not going to help you, it's not gonna save you. This stuff is, Merelise Wilson: Mm-mm. Kimberly: you're gonna end up, you're gonna end up donating it to Kinderspace LA and our corner of stuff that people have donated is already piled up. So we have no more room for stuff, you know. Merelise Wilson: Time is far more precious than stuff. Yes. Kimberly: Far more precious and also like even just money like money so that money Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: for you so you can get a postpartum doula or that you Merelise Wilson: Yes. Kimberly: can get someone to clean your house or have someone you know Cook for you got babysit, right all those things. That's that's what's really Merelise Wilson: babysitter or yeah. Kimberly: crucial But you know marketing gets us every time we think that baby registry Merelise Wilson: It does. Kimberly: is gonna save our life and it is not it is just Merelise Wilson: No. Kimberly: Marketing so people can sell stuff. I had I was at a birth last week with a lovely client their first baby home birth. And they, I was giggling because I went to their baby's nursery that they so lovingly put together. And I'm like, their baby is not even gonna ever be in here. They have a crib, three bassinets. Trust me, the baby's not using that right now, I know. Because they're with their mom. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly: And we teach people how to safely co-bed and all those things, because especially Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: your breastfeeding, you need to be close to your baby and your baby only wants to be close to you. So I know I just giggle, say, ooh, these bassinets are gonna end up at Kendra's face, I already know. Merelise Wilson: Hahaha Kimberly: But anyway, just to finish my birth stories, my last two are really special. think each one of my stories is birth stories is unique as birth is every Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: every birth is unique. But with my fifth Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: kid, I was working at Howard University Hospital in Washington, DC. I was helping them to establish their first lactation clinic. had become a lactation consultant through all of this, even though I had the sore bleeding nipples with my first kid. And if you had told me I would do lactation, become a consultant at some point in my life, I would have thought you were crazy. But Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: My challenges helped draw me to understanding how to make it easier for people. And then the lactation consultant Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: profession was growing and I saw myself as being someone that could do that for work and for income. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: So I had become a lactation consultant and was able to work at Howard University Hospital and I worked on the maternity floor because they deliver babies there. was pregnant with my fifth kid and God was telling me, you're gonna be your own midwife this time. And you're gonna midwife yourself. And I was like, huh. And so I had a good friend who was a student midwife. I remember calling her up after I realized I was pregnant and I asked her if she had a Doppler and maybe I Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: could come by her house and she could see if she could hear a heartbeat. And so she did. We heard the heartbeat and. I had no ultrasounds with this, my fifth son, my Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: fifth kid, I had none of that. people can call me irresponsible. I was going with my intuition, my gut that this was something that I was going to. be like do myself and be in tune with myself and that guy was going to go with me and just listen and just and so I was I and I bought ended up buying a Doppler and Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: I would listen to my son whenever I felt like okay let me just listen and see how he's doing and then I kind of pretty much went through the pregnancy like that and by the end of the pregnancy I was pretty set on like delivering myself but Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: then I kind of started getting worried I'm not worried but I started doing some research and I was like you know I have a cesarean scar. And there are complications that can be associated with that. And then I started thinking, well, what if my placenta doesn't come out? Or what if I bleed too much? Or I've never had any of those complications. What if it happens? Who's going to help me? Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: And so I called that friend who was a student midwife, you know, and Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: she was willing to, I said, if I feel like I need some help, what can I call you? She said, sure. And she actually put herself in jeopardy. And I didn't, I had no Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: idea. because she wasn't a licensed midwife, she was a student and it really wasn't something that Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: she was supposed to do. But she did, you know, and I did some barter, I bought her some books for midwifery school and when the time came I called her and she came and she helped me out. But I really didn't need that much help but she was there. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: But the interesting thing about my fifth son is that his birth was the shortest, my labor was the shortest. So I had a regular Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Kimberly: old day. Regular old morning, youngest kid at the time was four, my daughter, Journey. And I woke up in the morning feeling just like I do every morning. I noticed a little bloody show, didn't think much of it. I remember calling my friend, Barb, and saying, she's like, are you having contractions or anything? I said, no, I did have a little bloody show this morning. She's like, Kim, this is your fifth baby. Like, you're about to have a baby. I'm like, I don't have, I said, I don't have any Merelise Wilson: It's gonna be fast. Kimberly: contractions. I'm like, I'm fine. It's fine. I was like eating breakfast with my daughter. My other kids had gone to school Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: and I decided I wanted to Take a bath with my daughter. I just felt like it might be nice just to get in the bath So we got she Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: and I took a bath together and then we laid on the bed it to take a nap like a morning nap Merelise Wilson: Aww. Kimberly: and I don't even know Merelise Wilson: Sounds heavenly. Kimberly: how see I like Shortly after I woke up with like contraction number one and it was strong It was Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: zero to sixty and I'm like, whoa And I'm laying on the bed like, whoa, what was that? And then I'd always had prodromal labor, like days, you know, some days Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: of warmup, but this just came on strong. And before I could even really catch my breath, I had another one. And then again, another one. And you know, it was just coming closer than five minutes apart, I would say just very, very strong. Like I could, I could not even get off the bed. So. Merelise Wilson: Wow. Is your daughter still snoozing next to you? What's she doing? Kimberly: No, she's kind of like bopping off. I think she went to go hang out with her dad or whatever, but then I called him Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: and I'm like... think I'm in labor. And they just kept coming. was born like an hour and a half later. Merelise Wilson: Wow. Kimberly: Yeah, he was born like an hour and a half later. So I think his total, no, I called my friend. Well, Merelise Wilson: And where you just by yourself? Okay. Kimberly: I think the kids had come back from school or something. then when I felt something had happened, or maybe they were going to school, but they didn't go because something was happening. But Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: I remember I did they want to stay with me or did they want to go with their Aunt Barb and they said they want to go with their Aunt Barb so Barb came and picked them up and it was just me, my dad and the midwife student eventually came right before I started pushing because it was all Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Wow. Kimberly: very fast and she just helped me she just put little fingers at my peridium to help me kind of like know where to push and I pushed Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: about and he was born it was great. and it so cute because it was so fast and so overwhelming. I realized that that birth, that fast births don't mean easy births. Like fast Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: births can be incredibly intense. I Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: mean, they are intense because everything is happening in a much shorter period of time. And I never once got off the bed. So here I am in my own house. I could move around. I could do whatever I want. When my friend Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: came, she said, do you want to get up? you want to walk? I was like, I can't, I can't get up. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly: And when he came out. I held him in my arms. I hadn't even opened, I hadn't opened my eyes. I just, just held him in my arms and had my eyes closed. I knew that he was a boy. I had it in two that he was a boy. I knew that, but it was like, oh, you know, I'm there just catching my breath. you know, and then eventually I peel open one of my eyes and I look down at him and he's there with his big eyes looking up at me. And I had my arm like between his legs and I could feel like scrotum, right? So I'm like, it's a boy, you know? Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Oh, what position were you in? Do you remember when you were? Okay. Kimberly: I was on my back, flat on my back. I could not move. I wasn't trying Merelise Wilson: Wow! Kimberly: to move. I mean, he was coming so fast, I felt like he was just gonna fall out. And I feel like, yeah, Merelise Wilson: Yeah, yeah, that was that that ejection. Kimberly: I feel like staying on my back actually probably even slowed it down a little bit because he was just coming so Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kimberly: fast. And by the way, he is the most chill human being on the earth. He is so Merelise Wilson: Wow, interesting. Kimberly: chill, so amazing. And he's about to graduate from college as a painter. Merelise Wilson: Aww. Aww. Kimberly: He's an art school fine artist, but he Merelise Wilson: Amazing. Kimberly: still comes, know, some mornings he comes up to hug me and he'll kind of get like, he'll just get like low on my body and just lay down with me Merelise Wilson: you Kimberly: and he'll hug me. And I'm like, wow, it's like, just like when you're born, it just, it's so cool. He's the coolest. Merelise Wilson: That makes me so happy as a mom of boys to know that Kimberly: Yes. Merelise Wilson: they'll still love on me like that when they're that age. Good. Yes. Kimberly: 100 % and when they're taller than you and all that stuff, you know, it's just So last but not least my daughter Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: Zion was born. Well, Zuri is her name, but Zion is her nickname and she was born seven years after her brother a je and she was a home birth and the interesting thing about that birth was I was 45 about to be 46 and Having a home birth she was naturally conceived And yeah, I mean, it really wasn't, I was surrounded by midwives at this point. I knew that I was Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: going into midwifery school and they assured me that like they weren't worried about my age. No one was worried about my age except I Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: think the biggest thing that felt weird to me was I had, was starting to have gray hair and I felt Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: like it's kind of weird that I'm pregnant and I have gray hair, but I Merelise Wilson: Hehehe. Kimberly: was a little self-conscious about that. But I'll tell you Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: one day I went, to a conference while I was pregnant and I bumped into one of my mentors on my lactation journey. It's a beautiful woman from Ghana named Ogundu Nyoha. And she was one of the first lactation consultants I ever met. She's black woman, like I said, from Africa. She worked for WIC in Brooklyn. And I met her there because they were developing the breastfeeding peer counselor program. So I became a peer counselor and she trained me. And that's how I actually started. learning about lactation and going into lactation. But anyway, I ended up bumping into her at a conference. At this point, she had four of her own children. I said, Egon, you're never going to believe this, but I'm pregnant. And she said, OK. She said, well, in my country, we have our babies up into our 50s. That's what Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: she said. And I was like, oh. So she normalized it for me Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: because I was feeling like maybe I'm old. And Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: so anyway, had just a fine regular birth with my daughter. And she was not three hours. She was more like a 12 hour experience. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: And it was fine. She came out surrounded by my midwife friends, my friend Allegra, who became my business partner, who is my business Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: partner. We've attended each other's births. And yeah, it was just a great experience. typical normal experience, no complications and that was it. Merelise Wilson: Were you in water for any of your births? Kimberly: I never really wanted a water birth, but I loved using Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: water for my labor. So I would use like the shower. I remember with Zuri, really, I just wanted to be in the tub, but I didn't want to birth in the tub. I just wanted to be Merelise Wilson: Uh-huh, yeah. Kimberly: in there and I wanted to be like on land. We're in water or on land. So I wanted to be on land Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: when I birthed. And that was perfectly fine with me. But I think water is a powerful tool for comfort in birth. And so that was definitely, you know. important to me, but it wasn't important to me to birth in water. Yeah. Merelise Wilson: That's just incredible. I think a lot of times you mentioned when we first started the conversation that I think after your first birth, you had some apprehension about having another one because of how it went. And I think a lot of times there's this stigma or like this concept that if you've had one type of birth, you're gonna have the same type of birth. And you are just the perfect example of every single birth being so unique. And I Kimberly: Yes. Merelise Wilson: think that's so cool. You know, like the same mom, everything, completely different births all six times. It's fascinating. Kimberly: Yes. and I also, one of the things that I really like for my, for my own personal journey and my own professional journey is that I've had different experiences. So I can certainly empathize when a Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: person has a cesarean that they wanted or they didn't want, you know, I know what that feels like. I had a cesarean, you know, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: and what it feels like to have a vaginal, you know, a physiologic vaginal birth in the hospital, and Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: a home birth, right? So I've had all these different experiences and I feel like it just helps me have more empathy and be a better provider. just again, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: at the end of the day, remembering that birth is birth. And birthing can look a lot of various different ways, right? And we're always Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: wanting to reduce trauma, right? But that birthing, I think that people are sending not the greatest message when they say birth is traumatic, because Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: birth isn't necessarily inherently traumatic. It just depends. And I think Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: that also, again, there's no one way to birth. whether Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: if you birth vaginally or you birth surgically or you have pain relief or you don't, it doesn't mean that you didn't birth. And so I think that's a big, huge message to tell people who are. bringing life into the world that all of it, know, anything that gets your kid on the other side or any any of these experiences, even a miscarriage. I've had miscarriages and I was like, this is a birth too. Merelise Wilson: Yes. Kimberly: You know, so we have to like don't allow like ourselves to be divided in this work that we do in these very special bodies Merelise Wilson: Yes. Kimberly: that we have. Merelise Wilson: Oh my gosh, I could not agree more. Yes. Kimberly: It's all sacred. It's all sacred. Merelise Wilson: It's all sacred. It's all life-giving, you know? Yeah, Kimberly: Mm-hmm. It is. It is. Merelise Wilson: I couldn't agree more. So you kind of hinted at this, but I didn't realize that you didn't start your midwife career until after your baby was born, your daughter, yeah. Kimberly: Yeah, because I just I really knew well was already a board I became a board certified lactation consultant and I was for 23 years and I actually Merelise Wilson: Okay. Kimberly: retired a couple years ago from lactation consulting just Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: because I don't really take private clients anymore. I mean, I certainly Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: do lactation with my clients all the time, Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: but I just could not I mean I also wanted to like raise my kids, you know, I didn't want to like Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: just be so in school that I wasn't able to, I was already doing too much. And really I Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: was, I've been divorced twice and I had spent a lot of my time also as a single mom. So I had a lot going on, but when my Merelise Wilson: Wow. my gosh. Yeah. Kimberly: youngest kid was one, I said, okay, I'm going to enroll in school. And, that's what I did. And, and then, you know, you're, you're part of the sandwich generation at that point, because my father was, had Alzheimer's and Merelise Wilson: Huh. Kimberly: My parents moved in with me and we did the multi-generational thing, which was beautiful. That's actually how I could actually even work and start school. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, I was gonna say. Kimberly: Yeah. But also we took care of my dad and his final years, which was a privilege, huge privilege. And so I, even though I enrolled in school when my daughter was a year, it took me six years to finish and I had a lot of things going on. also took off a year to care for my dad. And then he passed and grieve and all that. then, okay, then got back into it. So I had hoped that I'd be licensed by age 50. And I think I actually was 54 when I was licensed. Something to that effect. I'll be 61 this year. yeah, so for me, know, someone I remember, have a friend, mama, sister Shafiya Monroe, if you've ever heard of her. And Shafiya, Merelise Wilson: have. Kimberly: Mama Shafiya had an organization some years ago called the International Center for Traditional Childbearing. And she was amazing. And she really was another one of my mentors that really, as a matter of fact, this is her new book. It's called Mothering the Mother. Yeah. Merelise Wilson: Mother and mother, ooh. Kimberly: Yeah. So she, she would, I remember when like my son who's 32 now, when he was a kid and me calling Shafiya and saying, I really want to be a midwife. But I don't know how I'm going to do it because how am going to do it? have kids. She said, you know, she said, you have time. She said, you know, traditionally the midwives were the grandmothers. They were the women who Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: had already raised their children. So she Merelise Wilson: Right? Kimberly: just reassured me that I had time, you know, I'm making it sound like was all, you know, rainbows and butterflies, but I did have anxiety Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: about how am I going to get this done? I feel myself being called to this work, but how will I fit it in? And so I just really trusted her and I listened to what she was saying and she basically was saying, you have time. Like there is a time that's going to come back for you. And even my father used to say that, before he passed, would say, when he didn't have the Alzheimer's, he was able to say, I see you doing so much with your kids and I know you have big dreams and many things that you want to do. And he says, you're doing the right thing and you'll have time. Like before you know it, you will have your time back. It's so true. My life is so different now. My kids are, my youngest is 14 and only my two youngest live with me and everybody else is out on their own with their families and their boyfriends and their lives and it's Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: wonderful. But it does give me the space, even the space to talk to you right now, you know? And Merelise Wilson: Yeah, yeah. Kimberly: so it is true. Let us all try to live healthy lives so that we can be here for a while. if that's what we choose to do. Merelise Wilson: Well, you've certainly had impact. Speaking of that, can you tell me a little bit about your work with Kindred Space? Kimberly: Sure. So Kindred Space LA and now Kindred Space AV, because we have two centers now, it was, you know, a long... Another one of my stories is that I remember when I was that young mom in Brooklyn and just really getting Merelise Wilson: are you still there? Kimberly: that fire, like you, I was just like you with a mom, a young mom with two younger kids and really fired up about this world, this birth work and just what I was learning about myself, what I was learning from sitting in circle with all the women I would sit in circle with every month. And I was just, I just was just so inspired. And I started dreaming up like, what would it look like if there was a place where women could come, where mothers could come and be free to just hang out and nurse their babies and have some food and maybe find a book. And I dreamed up this space where people could come together in community. And I was starting to share that dream with my Lalehj leader that I was very close to in Brooklyn. And she was willing to go, like we started dreaming up this thing. And then before you knew it, I was moving out of New York. And Merelise Wilson: Well. Kimberly: so, didn't really manifest there. But I do remember that when I started having this vision, I remember Spirit saying to me very clearly, will you still have this vision if it takes you 25 years to get there? Do you Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: still want this vision if it takes you 25 years? I was like, where is that coming from? Because I'm expecting like, I'm going to do this now. when I look back and I see the trajectory, yeah, it's. All of that had to come to pass in order for me to actually be able to create what is in existence right now. And it was also about meeting people, meeting the right people that would want to share this dream with me. So I Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: never kind of really wanted to do it by myself. And so when I eventually moved to LA, some women were opening up a birth center and I got to work with them. on the lactation end and also be a student midwife with them when I was ready. And so, and then I met a person there who was coming in as an intern, had no kids, but was also wanting to be a midwife. And I just kind of was like, And I kind of started saying to her, maybe we'll work together one day. Maybe we do, you know, and she probably thought I was a weirdo, but that's my business partner right now. and so, Merelise Wilson: You felt it in your bones, you knew. Kimberly: yeah, so when the time was right, We attended a conference in 2017, a midwifery conference in 2017, and we were just appalled actually by all the sessions that were about maternal, black maternal mortality, and about how no one was talking solutions. They were just kind of reporting on horrific experiences. It just felt like a session after session of trauma, trauma, trauma, like black women are dying, black women are dying, black women are dying. And it also wasn't coming out of the mouth. black women was coming out of the mouths of other people reporting on our experiences and it didn't feel like we were being held. It just felt like we were being pathologized. And, you know, I had very different experiences. I never even knew about black maternal mortality. I had healthy experiences. My mom had, it came out okay. My grandmother came out okay. So this, I was learning like at that time in 2017, I knew, but I, you know, it was like, But again, I had seen I had already worked in a birth center in LA with that and they took care of a wide variety of people and I saw healthy outcomes. So it was never came out like along racial lines. It was just like, you give people the right, give them the right, put the right stuff in them, you know, they have an intention and you have an intention and we work together and you put the right stuff in folks and help them get what they need, they're gonna have a healthy experience. And that's what I was seeing over and over again. So I already knew like the solutions existed. so. My vision was creating a space where that could happen outside of this other center that eventually closed. And that's what we set out to do. And we started by opening just like an education space, because I was a student midwife. I wasn't able to open a birth center at the time. I had to finish my studies. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: But we started by opening an education space in 2018 after that conference, because we were just mortified. We're like, everyone is here talking about how horrible everything is, but is anybody doing anything about it? And you know, we just said, you know, we could do something. We can definitely we have enough experience to do something. And we just started raising money on a GoFundMe raised enough money to open up a little space. And we just did education. Allegra took her saw her home birth clients there and things of that nature. But We knew that one day we wanted to open up actual birth center and it was actually COVID that blew everything out of the water because our little education space didn't have like an en suite, en suite bathroom. Like we had to go out to the hall and it was like, and everything was about being able to wash your hands and immediately and Merelise Wilson: Right. Kimberly: all that. And we were doing community gatherings and now it's like UK a gathering community. And so Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: we, we said, you know what? What? what are we gonna do? Like we really didn't know what we were gonna do. like overnight, Allegra, who already had a home birth practice was receiving like 15 to 20 calls a day of people wanting to have out of hospital birth. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: And from that point, we just figured like, you know what, we need to open this birth center now. Because Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: like people want it and not everybody that called her was a appropriate for out of hospital birth. A lot of people were coming just fear based like they were just in such fear that they were running to anything and they really didn't understand midwifery. They really didn't understand Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: out of hospital birth. didn't. They didn't. They weren't coming to it because they wanted that experience. They were just I just don't want to be in the hospital. So it's like there's nuance to that. It's not that doesn't necessarily make you a good for a good fit for out of hospital birth. So Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: but through that and that huge. influx of people who got really interested in it helped us and then that unfortunate, the unfortunate killing of George Floyd, the murder of George Floyd helped people make the connect the dots between black maternal health, which we were already made raising money to open a birth center and police brutality. People made a connection and started people who had seen our GoFundMe started sharing it like exponentially like you know how your phones Merelise Wilson: Mm. Kimberly: make these little beeps like when you get a notification it was like I had a weekend after George Floyd's death that my phone never stopped giving me notifications because people were donating like crazy so I think when we started our Merelise Wilson: Wow. Kimberly: our fund we started our fund in May I think of 2020 and we raised probably a couple of thousand dollars in a couple of months and after George George Floyd's death that first weekend after he passed, raised almost $20,000. And yeah, Merelise Wilson: Wow. Kimberly: and so people really got, they really made the connection. They made the connection Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: and the community funded us. And at the end of the day, then we had private funders, people who saw the bill from me and they would call us and say, I have a little more to give. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: And I don't really think I will give it on. I want to give it on the go for me. I want you guys to get all the money, you know? And so that it just, and before you knew it, we had enough money to open a space and Merelise Wilson: Wow. Kimberly: to open the space. And in terms of opening the space, the funny thing is it was the space that we opened this would wear Kindred spaces right now is I had moved to a new home, a new rental and my landlord, not my landlord, my real estate agent, who's a friend of a friend. agreed to help us find a space and so she found the space like right around the corner from my house and she didn't know Merelise Wilson: how perfect. Kimberly: it was around the corner from my house and I did know and I told her like I'm not interested in that building because it's next to a liquor store and she's like there's something in this building there's something here and I really want you to go see it and I really just did not I totally blew her off but Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: I eventually went in and saw it and it just so the rest is history that we've been there for six years now and We've had over 150 babies in the space. And then we opened AV a couple years ago in the Antelope Valley, which is like North Los Angeles County, kind of a semi-rural, it's like an urban, but lots of rural communities surrounding it. We chose that spot as our second location because we had a partnership with one of our community partners who was opening a center for, or something for mothers up there. And so we just kind of took advantage of opportunity to partner with them. And right when we said yes to them, the only birth center that was in that area, the owner called me and said that she was wanting someone to take it over. So Merelise Wilson: Well. Kimberly: we took it over, we renovated, and now we've been open there for a little over a year. And really it's been lovely just building community up there. So yeah, so that's what we're doing. And. And we're also, we have five midwives that work with us in LA. I have one midwife that works with me in Antelope Valley and another midwife, another soon to be midwife. She's a nurse, becoming a certified nurse midwife. And we're creating fellowships this year. We're not only helping student midwives who are licensed midwives get into the work, but also fellowshipping with certified nurse midwives who only have hospital training, who want to work in community Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: birth. So we're creating programs for and just opportunities for them to learn the art of community birth, we like to call it sometimes. Because they, yeah, community birth, yeah. Because Merelise Wilson: I like that. I haven't heard that. really like that. Yeah. Kimberly: they don't, most folks that are trained in the hospital don't get any, they have absolutely no training on out of hospital birth. So they just need additional training and not because we say they should, because they want it. And they're saying, I want more training. I want to do Merelise Wilson: Right. Mm-hmm. Kimberly: this. So we've been able to, We're starting to do that more with our CNMs and we've trained several student midwives and our Director of Operations, Nicole LaCour, who I've been friends with for years and years and years now, is soon finishing up her didactic work and then she'll be taking her exam and become yet another midwife in our practice, so it's pretty exciting. Merelise Wilson: That's amazing. I really, really love that phrase community birth. I think a lot of times people think of like hospital birth or other. I feel like community summarizes what hospital birth, and I'm saying this as someone who had two hospital births. I feel like community birth summarizes what hospital birth is lacking and that it's hospital birth really just addresses this like one very small period of time in the grand Kimberly: Yes. Merelise Wilson: scheme of your whole birth. experience motherhood journey and community birth just feels like it encompasses so much more of what it is you're trying to accomplish. think what so many of us don't even know that we're missing out on, you know? So I Kimberly: Totally. Merelise Wilson: really love that. I'm going to use that. I love that. Kimberly: Thank you. And you're right. And also, it's our center is about the community. We do more. I mean, obviously we have the prenatal care, the birth and postpartum care and all that. But we have mom's groups. We have dad's groups. We have a prenatal and postpartum dance group that Nicole Merelise Wilson: No. Kimberly: and another midwife that works with the sky who's a new graduate. They teach that we have yoga. have, you know, we have a grief groups, you know, we have a grief group for just general. And we have a grief group that's focused on pregnancy loss and miscarriage and abortion and all those things. And we do doula trainings. We'll be doing our 10th cohort of doula trainings coming up in August. And again, it's all about community. Everything is about community. And as crazy as the world seems, and it probably has always seemed, when we are in our communities, we feel that peace. We feel safe. We feel cared for. We feel loved. you know, we're just spreading that and helping. The other thing is that when you're a provider, you know, you can get, you can become toxic to the point where you think everybody, you're the only one that can give the answers to the people of the community. And I don't believe that. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: I believe that the answers are within the community and I might have some answers and you may have some answers and that person over there has some answers. like, and how do we bring people together with other people? and just kind of like ignite the desire to want to get to know each other. And Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Kimberly: sometimes people haven't had that opportunity and when you kind of encourage them to get into these spaces, then they can feel that. And then they can take care of themselves. They can take care of each Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: other. I'm not in charge of the moms group. It's like, hey, a mom that has young kids, that's really good with people. I'm gonna... hey would you like to do a moms group with us? know and that's how we you know kind of like find people who could fit that role and help them take on the journey that we've also been through and you know I don't need to go to a moms group now I need to go to the menopause group. Merelise Wilson: Is that going to be part of Kindred's space? Is there going to be a menopause? Kimberly: I mean, a hundred, you know, I'm really like thinking about, I'm really trying to figure out how I can become a menopause practitioner and Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: roll it in with my midwifery because I do see that not just as a, you know, something as an income thing, but it's just a need. So I see women really suffering Merelise Wilson: Yes, there's a gap. Kimberly: in their menopause years and they don't have to. I have one Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Kimberly: of my, the person that helped me is a midwife. Her name is Sarah Shealy. She's the C and and she now, her practice is solely menopause and she changed my life. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, I believe it. Kimberly: She changed my life. So I want women to know, you know, how that you don't have to just suffer. Merelise Wilson: Right, right. that's amazing. The work you're doing is incredible. And Kimberly: Thank you. Merelise Wilson: I'm just so glad that we were able to connect. It's been an honor. Kimberly: Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. It's so nice talking to you reflecting on my birth stories and I probably said the group text. Me and my kids have this group text called mama and her birdies. They made up that name. So I'll group text Merelise Wilson: Aww. Kimberly: them all and say, Hey, I shared your birth story. It might be on a podcast. You can listen in when it's out. thank you Merelise Wilson: Yes, nice chance to get on memory lane. Kimberly: so much for inviting me and I wish you all the best with the work that you're doing. This is really great. Merelise Wilson: Thank you. And I always like to finish by asking my guests to describe birth in three words, whatever comes to mind, top of mind. Kimberly: Mmm. Raw, wild. and raw, wild, and mind-blowing. Merelise Wilson: I love that. Raw, and mind-blowing. I agree. Kimberly: Mm-hmm. Merelise Wilson: Well, thank you so much, Kimberly. You've been listening to the Arrivals podcast. Until next time. All