Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #847 What's Up With WhatsApp? Shona Hendley on Toxic School Groups

Transcript

#847 What's Up With WhatsApp? Shona Hendley on Toxic School Groups · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: The time poor parent who just wants answers Now. Hello,
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: this is doctor Justin coll Something, the found of Happy
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Families dot com dot a u and the parenting expert
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: and co host on Channel linees hit TV show Parental Guidance.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: This is the Happy Families podcast where we talk about
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: how we can make your family happier. Podcast for the
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: time poor parent who just wants answers Now. There's an
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: endearing term that I use every now and again. It's
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: the car park mafia. I'm talking about you know, those
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  Speaker 2: parents at the school. Maybe you are one. I'm saying
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  Speaker 2: it with fun, I promise there's a big smile on
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: my face. But the car park mafia are those parents
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  Speaker 2: that hang out in the car park after school or
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  Speaker 2: before school or before the kids get picked up, and
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  Speaker 2: they talk about all of the all the things that
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  Speaker 2: are going wrong, who they'd like to execute, who's going
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  Speaker 2: to get buried in cement from now. I'm just kidding.
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  Speaker 2: It's not like that, but certainly there's a group of
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  Speaker 2: parents at every school who are very invested in what's
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  Speaker 2: happening in the school, and typically that car park mafia
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  Speaker 2: as hung out in the car park and had these conversations. Well,
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  Speaker 2: it seems that the car park Mafia has moved online
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  Speaker 2: to WhatsApp. Now, I'm sure Shonah Henley may not agree
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  Speaker 2: with my term car park mafia, and I am saying
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  Speaker 2: it in jest. But Shona Henley is a freelance journal
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  Speaker 2: She's a contributor to the ABC, This Cinemony, Herald, the Age,
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  Speaker 2: Harp is Bizarre, the Herald son pretty much everywhere, and
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  Speaker 2: she writes about a whole lot of things. You write about, education,
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  Speaker 2: mental health, well being, anything you just like sharing opinions
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  Speaker 2: and ideas and doing some research on it. Is that correct?
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I think just anything that you know people can
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  Speaker 1: relate to and you know they can think about or
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  Speaker 1: contribute to, even in you know, like nodding along or
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  Speaker 1: the other way, like disagreeing.
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  Speaker 2: Like the car park mafia.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, like that one. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So I want to get to your article in a second,
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  Speaker 2: just quickly.
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  Speaker 1: Though.
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  Speaker 2: You're a mom of two kids, three goats. Hopefully you're
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  Speaker 2: not getting them confused, the kids and the goat. Sometimes
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  Speaker 2: kids goats. I say I was playing with anyway, terrible planwards,
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  Speaker 2: A couple of cats, but you've written this article that
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  Speaker 2: appeared in the The Agent Sitting morn In Herald just recently,
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  Speaker 2: and it caught my attention because you've essentially said WhatsApp
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  Speaker 2: groups when it comes to parents at the school as
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  Speaker 2: starting to become a little bit, I don't know, toxic
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  Speaker 2: perhaps Now. I speak at a lot of schools and
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  Speaker 2: unfortunately I hear some school leaders bemoaning the parent WhatsApp group.
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  Speaker 2: The car park mafia has moved online. What did you
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  Speaker 2: discover as you wrote this article and investigated school parent
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  Speaker 2: WhatsApp groups.
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  Speaker 1: Well, they're definitely rampant there like everywhere. So yeah, I
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  Speaker 1: that might go along with your mafia word, but I
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  Speaker 1: think they're used a lot, so you know, whether good
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  Speaker 1: or bad. Most people that I spoke with, so friends, family,
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  Speaker 1: random strangers, anyone that had thoughts on it had either
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  Speaker 1: belonged to a WhatsApp group at some point. Do you
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  Speaker 1: currently or an equivalent sort of group chat related to
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  Speaker 1: their children school?
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  Speaker 2: That's so interesting because like Kylie and I are not
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  Speaker 2: involved in any WhatsApp groups. I don't even know if
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  Speaker 2: there is one. I've stayed away from it.
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  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's probably a good idea. That's my general attitude.
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  Speaker 2: So what are the pros and cons to the parent
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  Speaker 2: WhatsApp group.
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  Speaker 1: So they definitely are pro, so my article focused a
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  Speaker 1: lot on the cons. But you know, I think if
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  Speaker 1: they use well, like they have a good moderator, which
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  Speaker 1: I think is really essential, and they've got really good
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  Speaker 1: terms and guidelines that people are following, they can be
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  Speaker 1: a really great way for parents to communicate about school
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  Speaker 1: admin type of things, so you know, car pooling, pick
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  Speaker 1: up strop offs, school uniform sales. And another thing that
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  Speaker 1: I thought was really positive, which I hadn't really thought of,
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  Speaker 1: was that some parents find it a great way to
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  Speaker 1: sort of connect with other parents and be involved in
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  Speaker 1: the school life a bit, so you know, like they
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  Speaker 1: are members of the school as well community, and I
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  Speaker 1: think sometimes they might get a bit neglected in that front.
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  Speaker 1: So people that find it positive and find it a
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  Speaker 1: good thing, find that they can establish sort of a
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  Speaker 1: good rapport and almost like a school spirit, you know,
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  Speaker 1: And I think that's like, that's a really good thing.
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  Speaker 2: So when I hear you say that, I think about
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  Speaker 2: a whole lot of research that very sophisticated scholars have
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  Speaker 2: done over the last few years looking at social media generally,
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  Speaker 2: and there are a lot of negatives to social media,
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  Speaker 2: but the overwhelming positive is that when it is used
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  Speaker 2: pro socially, it promotes a sense of community, a sense
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  Speaker 2: of belonging, a sense of connection, all the things that
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  Speaker 2: you've just outlined. It's a really, really big plus. Yes. Unfortunately,
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  Speaker 2: social media comes with a whole lot of negatives, and
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  Speaker 2: your article focused on several of those negatives. So we've
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  Speaker 2: talked pros what are the cons? What did you discover
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  Speaker 2: as you ask these questions? And I'm going to guess
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  Speaker 2: most of this comes from a lack of effective moderation
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  Speaker 2: and guidelines around the group.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it does, and maybe having an understanding
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  Speaker 1: that isn't quite correct about what the platform.
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  Speaker 2: Is group existing. Yeah, so what are you seeing?
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  Speaker 1: Quite a lot and things that I hadn't necessarily thought of.
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  Speaker 1: So there were things quite minor and for me, like
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  Speaker 1: that was something that I'd noticed as well, is that
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  Speaker 1: people like to share a lot. Some people so you know,
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  Speaker 1: a bit frequent sharers or contributors to the chat, you
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  Speaker 1: know that little top contributor badge for them on WhatsApp.
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  Speaker 1: It's not always necessary, and they also like to share
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  Speaker 1: it at whatever time suits them, so you know, it
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  Speaker 1: could be late to the evening, trying to go to
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  Speaker 1: bed and ping. You know, it's like something unnecessary that
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  Speaker 1: you don't need to read, which can just be frustrating,
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  Speaker 1: or you know, if it's something that's serious, it's like
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  Speaker 1: it causes a bit of a sleepless night potentially. You know,
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  Speaker 1: you're a parent trying to relax and then you get
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  Speaker 1: this message about something to do with school, and then
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  Speaker 1: you start thinking about that. But I think in the
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  Speaker 1: more serious side of things, one thing that I hadn't
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  Speaker 1: thought of until I spoke with a social media expert
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  Speaker 1: was sort of the privacy concerns around students. So for example,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we all tick the yes or no about
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  Speaker 1: sharing our kids like name and image for the school,
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  Speaker 1: whether it's in like a school yearbook or for their
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  Speaker 1: Facebook page or website, but that's not passed on all
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  Speaker 1: the time to parents. It's not really passed on to parents.
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  Speaker 1: So you know, you might be snapping pictures of your
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  Speaker 1: child at athletics and then share it in this WhatsApp
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  Speaker 1: group behind them some other kids, and these kids have
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  Speaker 1: ticked no, and that no is for a good reason.
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  Speaker 1: You know, potentially they're in a custody about all domestic
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  Speaker 1: violence situation. You know, there's a range of reasons and
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  Speaker 1: it's potentially putting those children at harm and at risk
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  Speaker 1: as well. So that was something I hadn't really thought of.
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  Speaker 1: You're thinking, you're sharing this just as something fun or
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  Speaker 1: you know, to give it to a photo to someone
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  Speaker 1: else for them to keep. But you're putting this information
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  Speaker 1: out there that you know it could be hurtful harmful
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  Speaker 1: to someone else. But outside all that, I think whether
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  Speaker 1: mafia thing comes into it is like it's definitely clicky
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  Speaker 1: like parents, whether we want to admit it or not,
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  Speaker 1: I think there are definitely some social clicks among school parents,
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  Speaker 1: and I think on social media, the idea that we
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  Speaker 1: can just share things without any repercussions really heightens that.
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  Speaker 1: It can make it really nasty really quickly. You know,
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  Speaker 1: names can get mentioned, you might even say things you
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  Speaker 1: don't necessarily you don't mean that much. You know, you
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  Speaker 1: get caught up in it, I think, quite quite easily.
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  Speaker 1: But it people usually will find out about it, which
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  Speaker 1: obviously is going to cause more ongoing issues as well.
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  Speaker 1: And there's also things like exclusion, Like there were people
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  Speaker 1: I spoke to that said, some parents were left out
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  Speaker 1: purposely of groups, or they started an entirely new group
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  Speaker 1: just because they didn't want a particular parent to be
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  Speaker 1: in it because they did not like them. And again,
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  Speaker 1: usually these people will find out, you know, and that's
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  Speaker 1: really hurtful, Like, you know, no one wants to be
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  Speaker 1: that parent that's left out of a group because no
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  Speaker 1: one likes them, you know, like it's horrible situation, especially
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  Speaker 1: when you're probably going to have to be around these
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  Speaker 1: parents for your child's old school life, you know. So
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  Speaker 1: I think there's things like that you just don't think about.
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  Speaker 1: Even more than that, there's like sort of legal ramifications
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  Speaker 1: as well, Like you know, there are a lot of
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  Speaker 1: teachers are often at the heart of some of the
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  Speaker 1: not so kind comments in these groups, and that can
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  Speaker 1: lead to like an abundance of issues. So yeah, Kira Pandagas,
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  Speaker 1: who I spoke to you from Safer Social, said she
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  Speaker 1: often works with schools when they have these issues and
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  Speaker 1: that it's really quite murky and basically nonyone knows how
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  Speaker 1: to deal with it. The schools don't know, you know,
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  Speaker 1: legal on the legal front, it's tricky as well. But ultimately,
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  Speaker 1: you know, these teachers, You're not going to end up
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  Speaker 1: out of work because they're you know, for their own
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  Speaker 1: mental health, because they've been defamed, harassed, bleed on these
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  Speaker 1: groups so badly that they can no longer work. So
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  Speaker 1: it can be quite serious.
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  Speaker 2: Several different angles that I want to take with what
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  Speaker 2: you said, because those like the negatives. Yet it's great
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  Speaker 2: because it can promote society and belonging. The first thing
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  Speaker 2: that strikes me is just the issue of being pro social,
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  Speaker 2: being civil to one another. I find it fascinating that
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  Speaker 2: parents are convinced that their kids need to be taught
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  Speaker 2: to be appropriate with digital media, but it seems that
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  Speaker 2: many parents forget that the same rules apply to them
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  Speaker 2: in so many ways. I actually want to join the
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  Speaker 2: gospel and find out what you found out as you
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  Speaker 2: are researching for this, but I don't think that that's
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: constructive as much as I would love to know what
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: people are saying. But shown up, you talked about legal ramifications.
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  Speaker 2: As you were saying that, it reminded me of early
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  Speaker 2: twenty twenty. I think it was just before COVID. There
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  Speaker 2: was a Mount Tambourine in Queensland. Mount Tambourine Principle who
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  Speaker 2: won a defamation case after parents were alleged to have
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  Speaker 2: made derogatory remarks on Facebook. So there are very real
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  Speaker 2: legal issues involved in what's being said in public forums,
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  Speaker 2: even if it's in a private WhatsApp group. Once somebody
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  Speaker 2: takes a screenshot, once that gets leaked, once the person
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  Speaker 2: being defamed finds out, this is almost certain to end
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  Speaker 2: up in court if a person wants to take it
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: down that route, right.
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  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean I'm not a lawyer, but I did.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I spoke with Hira Panda guest and she had really
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: like insightful comments about a lot of issues that can
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: come from you know, even just like one comment about someone.
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  Speaker 1: So as you mentioned things like defamation, if those that
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: information's found out, which more often and they're not it
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: is found out via screenshots, talking emails, you know, people
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  Speaker 1: like to share. Doesn't stay on WhatsApp. So I actually
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  Speaker 1: read earlier this year there were a few communication reforms
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  Speaker 1: past regarding social media, so sort of covered things on TikTok,
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  Speaker 1: but these group chats weren't included. Yeah, so, and it's
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  Speaker 1: sort of I think remainder to be to be looked
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: at component for the government.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I'm sure I'm sure somebody's going to say something stupid
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  Speaker 2: and we're going to find out soon enough.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's it exactly right. I think they know
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  Speaker 1: that they're going to have to do that quick smart.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: But you know, because it happens all the time, and
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: like the case I mentioned before, there's you know, like
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: a teacher that's like it happens a lot where the
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: teachers will find out about these comments and depending on
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: how serious they are or I guess the teacher in particular,
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  Speaker 1: that can have ramification. It's not just legally, but you know,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: for their own health well being, their professional life as well.
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  Speaker 1: So I think like you just need to remember that
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: what you're saying, if it's not kind and it's not private.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Just I have a question for you. Are you in
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: a parent's WhatsApp group with your kids school?
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: I am? I am.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: How has reporting this story made you approach that differently?
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: Well? I was not really a very active member anyway.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: I was sort of like I always found I've belonged
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: to a few different groups, you know, over the years
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: as my kids have grown up, and there's been occasions
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: where they've got a bit untoward. So I think from
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: seeing that I've sort of I belonged to them for
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: the sake of belonging, but I don't get notifications and often,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: like you know, i'd even delete the entire app for
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: a while, like if I need a break.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: So so you're not an you're not an active car
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: P like mafia participant. Is that what you're saying?
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: No, No, it's just too much.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Too much, probably a good way to be.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's it.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: We will link to the article that you've written in
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: the show notes so people can go and read it
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: and really get their head around the things that you've described,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: although I think there's been a great summary of it
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: in this conversation. Show parting words. Final advice. If parents
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: are using these social media platforms to stay on top
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: of what's happening in the school and create that community
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: with other parents, what would be your biggest take home message,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: the central thing that you'd want people to hang on to.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Based on what you've written, based on what we've discussed today.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, to st just to be kind and respectful,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: you know, the whole treat other people how you want
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: to be treated, sort of manchu. I think you know
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: you need to remember that that you know everyone is
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: a person, like teachers, other parents, kids, the gardener, like everyone.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: So if you say something about them, you know, especially
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: on WhatsApp, potentially they're going to find out about it.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: So if you wouldn't say it to them, don't write
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: it on WhatsApp. But I think remember as well your kids.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: You know, you're a role model to your kids, So
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: don't do anything on there that you wouldn't want them doing.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Remember that it's not private. It really isn't. And there's
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: like definitely an illusion that it's like this like cone
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: of silence, which it's really not at all. And I
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: think just if you've got an issue, raise it me
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: for school, because nothing's going to get solved on what'sapp.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Like let's just be honest, like it's just you might
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: get some people supporting you for a while not feeling nice,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: but nothing really positive is going to come from airing
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: grievances on there.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, great stuff showing a Shanna Henley is a freelance
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: journalist contribute to the agencitting on he Herald, ABC Had
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: a Whole Lot More, mum of a couple of kids,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: and investigative journalist looking at parents WhatsApp groups in school
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: car parks. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Roland for
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive produce and if
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: you would like more information about making your family happier
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: and staying safe online, even for you as a grown up,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: check out all of our resources in our Happy Families membership.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: We can find the details at happy families dot com
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: dot u