Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / SHOCK TWIST IN MYSTERY DEATH OF BRIDE-TO-BE AFTER SHE'S VICIOUSLY STABBED 20 TIMES, BIZARRELY RULED SUICIDE

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SHOCK TWIST IN MYSTERY DEATH OF BRIDE-TO-BE AFTER SHE'S VICIOUSLY STABBED 20 TIMES, BIZARRELY RULED SUICIDE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a shock twist in the
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  Speaker 1: mystery death of a bride to be. A beautiful young
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  Speaker 1: first grade teacher bride to be after she's viciously stabbed
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  Speaker 1: twenty times at least twenty times, including in the back
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  Speaker 1: of the neck, the back of the head, and it's
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  Speaker 1: bizarrely ruled a suicide. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 2: The parents of a young teacher stabbed twenty times and
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  Speaker 2: ruled a suicide are hit with more devastating news when
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  Speaker 2: the District Attorney's office places their daughter's case into an
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  Speaker 2: active status. In another blow to Josh and Sandy Greenberg's
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  Speaker 2: ongoing efforts to find justice for their daughter, Ellen Greenberg,
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  Speaker 2: the Chester County District's Attorney's Office announces that they cannot
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  Speaker 2: prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime was committed
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  Speaker 2: when their daughter, Ellen Greenberg died from twenty knife wounds
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  Speaker 2: to the back of her head, neck, and chest. Due
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  Speaker 2: to this, the investigation into the death of Ellen Greenberg
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  Speaker 2: is now placed as inactive.
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  Speaker 1: Did I mention the bruising all across her body? Did
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  Speaker 1: I mention the bruising along her strap muscle, classic size
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  Speaker 1: of strangulation. So wait, let me understand it. She wasn't
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  Speaker 1: just stabbed dead at least twenty nine times twenty times.
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  Speaker 1: I believe some of those stab wounds were overlapping. I
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  Speaker 1: think she could have been stabbed more than twenty times,
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  Speaker 1: but I will go with twenty twenty times, including a
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  Speaker 1: slice that cut the dura of her spine, her spinal cord.
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  Speaker 1: She did that to herself, are you kidding me? Bruising
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  Speaker 1: about the net, even little fingernail marks around her neck.
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  Speaker 1: So she not only stabbed herself, but she also strangled
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  Speaker 1: her Okay, not okay? In the last days, a bizarre
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  Speaker 1: twist to the case, joining me in all start peddl
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  Speaker 1: including John Lucy, investigative journalists for penlive dot com. But
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  Speaker 1: first to Sandy and Josh Greenberg Ellen's parents. You know
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  Speaker 1: when you first learned that there's going to be an
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  Speaker 1: announcement from the Chester County das you texted me went
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  Speaker 1: there's announcement, and for one brief shining moment, Sandy I thought,
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  Speaker 1: oh my stars, somebody is finally going to do the
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  Speaker 1: right thing. When did you realize that they're saying they're
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  Speaker 1: not doing a dam n thing.
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  Speaker 3: I had to release the press release at least six
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  Speaker 3: times and run through it over and over and over again.
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  Speaker 3: And what comes to mind is when you're doing an
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  Speaker 3: investigation and you're only looking through the people, that's all
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  Speaker 3: you're going to see. If you open the door and
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  Speaker 3: you look at everything, you see a whole lot more.
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  Speaker 3: And that speaks volumes.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, Sandy, and I was reading I was rereading my
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  Speaker 1: text from you, and I saw it where you said,
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  Speaker 1: what does this mean? What are they excited to say?
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  Speaker 1: Because it was it was very circuitous to Ellen's dad
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  Speaker 1: joining us. Josh Greenberg, what was your response when you
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  Speaker 1: finally figured out what they were trying to say.
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  Speaker 4: I'm still not sure what they're trying to say.
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  Speaker 1: I think they were.
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  Speaker 4: Trying to avoid saying anything for whatever reason, which I
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  Speaker 4: sort of appreciate because they didn't say anything. And yes,
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  Speaker 4: they made the case inactive, because I believe there's a
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  Speaker 4: sentence after that saying that all homicide cases have unlimited
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  Speaker 4: time for exposure if anything should come up. So it's
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  Speaker 4: sort of like, well, that's right hand said, the right
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  Speaker 4: hand says one thing, the left hand says something else,
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  Speaker 4: but neither one is very conclusive. I think I want
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  Speaker 4: to thank Chester County for doing an investigation. I wish
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  Speaker 4: it was deeper and more detailed. They did give us
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  Speaker 4: the chance to hear what it was said before we
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  Speaker 4: before they released the press release, so we do appreciate that.
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  Speaker 4: But as for the depth of the investigation, shallow is
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  Speaker 4: not even a good word. There is no depth there.
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  Speaker 1: Joining me is John Lucy, investigative journalists for Penlive dot
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  Speaker 1: com and Patriot News Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. He specializes in true
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  Speaker 1: crime and cold case investigations. He's author of Kill the Story.
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  Speaker 1: John Lucy, thank you for being with us. Yes, both
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  Speaker 1: Josh and Sandy are correct. It is very confusing. You
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  Speaker 1: know what I find, John Lucy, that people himn hau
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  Speaker 1: around when they don't want to just come out and
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  Speaker 1: say it. What they said to my understanding is we
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  Speaker 1: can't prove this beyond a reasonable doubt, and therefore we're
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  Speaker 1: putting it on inactive status. In active that means it
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  Speaker 1: is not an active, ongoing investigation. And at the end,
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  Speaker 1: I guess they thought they were throwing Josh and Sandy
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  Speaker 1: some kind of a bone. But remember there's no statute
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  Speaker 1: of limitations on murder. If anybody would ever get off
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  Speaker 1: their rear ends and work this case, then maybe one
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  Speaker 1: day we'll get the answer basically as what they're saying.
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  Speaker 1: But that person ain't going to be us. We're not
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  Speaker 1: doing anything. I mean, come on, their expert has a
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  Speaker 1: degree in entomology, the study of bugs.
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  Speaker 5: Really well, Nancy, here's the problem. As long is it's
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  Speaker 5: ruled a suicide, No DA is going to take this case.
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  Speaker 5: That has been the original sin of this case. Remember
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  Speaker 5: when the police were called to the crime scene on
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  Speaker 5: January twenty sixth, twenty eleven, Ellen's fiance intimated on that
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  Speaker 5: bizarre nine to one one call that she stabbed herself.
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  Speaker 5: They treated it as a suicide, a probable suicide. The
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  Speaker 5: night that they investigated the crime scene, they in fact
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  Speaker 5: did not hold it as a crime scene the apartment
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  Speaker 5: where she died of twenty stab wounds. The next day,
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  Speaker 5: the Philadelphia Medical Examiner did rule the homicide, but that
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  Speaker 5: was changed three months later, and we know that there
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  Speaker 5: was secret meetings between detectives and the Medical Examiner's office
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  Speaker 5: that led to that change. It's remained a suicide ever since.
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  Speaker 5: And no DA, not the Attorney General of PA, who
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  Speaker 5: spent four years on case is going to change that
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  Speaker 5: because in Pennsylvania, the only one that can change the
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  Speaker 5: ruling of a medical examiner or coroner is that medical
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  Speaker 5: examiner or corner. And that's why the Greenbergs are before
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  Speaker 5: the Pennsylvania Supreme Court right now trying to change that
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  Speaker 5: suicide ruling, because as long as this case is branded
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  Speaker 5: with that, it's not going to go forward. No DA
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  Speaker 5: is going to spend time on it, because they are right,
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  Speaker 5: that is reasonable doubt. You could drive a truck through
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  Speaker 5: as long as it's as long as it's a suicide.
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  Speaker 4: Two.
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  Speaker 1: Then I now are joining me investigative reporter and co
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  Speaker 1: author of What Happened to Ellen? An American Miscarriage of Justice.
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  Speaker 1: All proceeds from the book What Happened To Ellen are
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  Speaker 1: going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children
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  Speaker 1: available two that details and nearly three hundred pages. What
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  Speaker 1: you are about to hear Ben an Hour describe from
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  Speaker 1: your layperson point of view, the injuries to Ellen and
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  Speaker 1: why this is not and cannot be a suicide. Then
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  Speaker 1: we'll bring on the death investigator hit it Beney. Alrighty.
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  Speaker 6: First of all, Ellen was stabbed, as you said at
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  Speaker 6: least twenty times. Some of those stabbed wounds have been
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  Speaker 6: brought into question whether they were done post mortems. If
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  Speaker 6: they were, then Ellen could not have been alive to
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  Speaker 6: have done them. Some of them were described as being
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  Speaker 6: so profoundly painful and destabilizing that one could not keep
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  Speaker 6: doing to continue to do anything after them. So there
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  Speaker 6: are so many questions about these wounds. They are so brutal.
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  Speaker 6: The crime scene was messed with, There was not a
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  Speaker 6: lot of blood at the crime scene. The crime scene
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  Speaker 6: was never treated like a crime scene because of mishandling
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  Speaker 6: by the police department and who allowed family members to
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  Speaker 6: come in and take things, take vital things. There are
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  Speaker 6: so many levels of questions, and anybody who hears this story,
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  Speaker 6: including the publisher of this book, keeps coming back with no,
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  Speaker 6: that's not possible, almost to the point, where are you
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  Speaker 6: sure did you check your facts? Are you sure you
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  Speaker 6: got this right? Because this can't be That's what we
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  Speaker 6: get over and.
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  Speaker 1: Over and exactly. You know, Benay, when you and I
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  Speaker 1: were writing the book together, I describe how when I
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  Speaker 1: fir first read about this before I met Josh and Sandy,
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  Speaker 1: I kept looking for that magical fact that would make me. No, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: they got it right, I'm wrong, that fact never emerged.
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  Speaker 1: Justice Scott Morgan is joining me, Professor Forensics said Jacksonville
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: State University, and what a criminal justice program they've got
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: going on. I was just there for the dedication of
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  Speaker 1: a whole new justice program. Facility is amazing. Author of
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  Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, host of a hit
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  Speaker 1: series Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. It goes on, but
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  Speaker 1: for my purposes. He is a death investigator with literally
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  Speaker 1: thousands of death seeing investigations under his belt. Everything that
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  Speaker 1: Benetnaur just said is true, but I want to hear
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  Speaker 1: it from a medical death investigator point of view. Joe
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  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, who study this case not just for tonight,
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  Speaker 1: but helped benay and helped me write the new book
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  Speaker 1: What happened to Ellen? Exhaustive exhaustive research he did. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: Joe Scott, you gave me so much information that Benet
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  Speaker 1: and I could hardly put it in the book. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: because it would be a whole other volume. But could
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  Speaker 1: you explain medically speaking, forget the mishandling of the scene,
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  Speaker 1: forget that. We'll come back to that, but medically speaking,
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  Speaker 1: on the face of it, this is not a suicide.
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  Speaker 1: Why are they doing this? Tellen, I don't get it.
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  Speaker 7: I don't know, having worked self inflicted stab wounds over
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  Speaker 7: the course of my career, the thought that you could
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  Speaker 7: have this many with all of these pain centers firing
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  Speaker 7: at one time, and layer upon layer a layer is
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  Speaker 7: beyond the pale. That's what you know. And listen. They
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  Speaker 7: had mentioned just a second ago about publishers and these
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  Speaker 7: sorts of things that are talking about how they can't
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  Speaker 7: believe it. Nancy. I've spoken with many friends of mine,
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  Speaker 7: colleagues that are also forensic scientists, and they're saying that
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  Speaker 7: this is something that is inexplicable, that they have never
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  Speaker 7: seen a case like this that rises to this level
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  Speaker 7: of violence. And I will call it violence. And I
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  Speaker 7: don't think that for any two seconds anybody worth their
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  Speaker 7: salt in my field would say that this is self inflicted.
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  Speaker 7: I don't see how in the world you can do it.
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  Speaker 7: And we talked about the biomechanics of this. What's really
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  Speaker 7: kind of interesting is the idea of someone, an individual
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  Speaker 7: like Ellen, being able to take this knife and essentially
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  Speaker 7: assault herself. This diagram beautifully done and rendered the idea
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  Speaker 7: that you could inflict these many insult to the posterior
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  Speaker 7: that means on the backside, like this extending your arm
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  Speaker 7: over your shoulder. It's implausible, Nancy. This defies all laws,
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  Speaker 7: all laws of physical science, to be able to accomplish this.
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  Speaker 7: And here's the big tell for me. You know, there
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  Speaker 7: was a member of the medical examiner staff in Philly
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  Speaker 7: that also gave a rendering about this case, and if
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  Speaker 7: I'm not mistaken, it was done as a result of
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  Speaker 7: a deposition. This individual actually stated that this blow that
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  Speaker 7: took place to the back of the neck, in her
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  Speaker 7: estimation at least, was an anti mortem insult or at
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  Speaker 7: best a pery mortem, which means in the throes of death.
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  Speaker 7: So you've got the actual autopsy where the individual, the
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  Speaker 7: pathologist is say, oh no, no, no, no. This insult to
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  Speaker 7: the back of the neck that clips the clips the
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  Speaker 7: spinal column. There is post mortem, and you can't have
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  Speaker 7: it both ways, Nancy. As you mentioned earlier, there's hemorrhage
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  Speaker 7: in there, and they think that that in this physically
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  Speaker 7: implausible that she could have done this on her own.
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  Speaker 1: Josh and Sandy, I know that you are not numb
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  Speaker 1: that this still hurts, But God willing one day you
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  Speaker 1: will see this disgust in front of a jury. Joe Scott,
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  Speaker 1: look at this. You've looked at it many times. But
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  Speaker 1: how And Josh and Sandy Ellen was right handed? Correct
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  Speaker 1: correct crime stories with Nancy Grace, Joe Scott number one
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  Speaker 1: on the name. On one call, we hear that her
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  Speaker 1: face is purple. I want to know why is her
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  Speaker 1: face purple? Number one? Why she's cold to the touch
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  Speaker 1: in that very short interval her body got completely cold
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  Speaker 1: in like an hour. But these stablish That's what I
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  Speaker 1: really want you to talk. How can somebody right handed
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  Speaker 1: stab themselves on the left side of the neck at
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  Speaker 1: an upward angle right handed? How do you take a knife?
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  Speaker 1: And what okay do that? I mean, I'm having to
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  Speaker 1: use my left hand to force my rent and they
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: were all across the back of her neck. Impossible for
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  Speaker 1: a right handed person to do that.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, it is. And every time this knife and please
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  Speaker 7: I beg forgiveness on the part of her parents here,
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  Speaker 7: but every time this knife is inserted, you have a
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  Speaker 7: pain center that fires in life. And this is almost intolerable.
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  Speaker 7: And the idea that you could manipulate the knife at
• 15:43
  Speaker 7: these odd angles like this is implausible to me, and
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  Speaker 7: over and over and over. We're not just talking about
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  Speaker 7: one or two kind of passive cuts or stabs or
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  Speaker 7: in sized areas. We're talking about multiple insertions of this
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  Speaker 7: knife into her body. I don't see how that is possible.
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  Speaker 7: There's no way that you will ever certainly convince me.
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  Speaker 7: It's up to the courts as to whether or not
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  Speaker 7: that they're going to well, it's up to the me
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  Speaker 7: as to whether or not they're going to change a
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  Speaker 7: ruling on this case. And to the discolouration in her face.
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  Speaker 7: This is fascinating, isn't it. Nancy? You mentioned the strap
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  Speaker 7: muscles earlier and how there were focal apparently focal areas
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  Speaker 7: of hemorrhage in those areas. And where do we see that, Nancy,
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  Speaker 7: you've done it.
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  Speaker 1: You say focal areas of hemorrhage. You mean you can
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  Speaker 1: see the bruises yescal areas of hemorrhage.
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  Speaker 7: Bruiges, right, yeah, where you have these in the strap muscles.
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  Speaker 7: Strap muscles are a configuration of four muscles that are
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  Speaker 7: essentially latterly oriented kind of crisscross in this area and
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  Speaker 7: It's something that we look for many times with a
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  Speaker 7: shixeald desks or manual strangulation.
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  Speaker 1: And Joe Scott, isn't it true as you point out
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  Speaker 1: that there are fingernail marks around her neck?
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, that has been alluded to, and I've kind of
• 17:02
  Speaker 7: given this primer before, but if people just kind of
• 17:05
  Speaker 7: think about if you look at the long axis of
• 17:08
  Speaker 7: your finger, look down at through your nail and you
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  Speaker 7: see how it has that kind of elliptical shape, You'll
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  Speaker 7: see that transferred onto the neck most of the time
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  Speaker 7: when you have these nail marks, and it's quite striking,
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  Speaker 7: you know when you see it. And for those of
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  Speaker 7: us that have spent time in the morgue, which I
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  Speaker 7: have for many many years and have work cases out
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  Speaker 7: on scenes, it's glaring, you know when you see it.
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  Speaker 7: And this goes again to this idea and I know
• 17:35
  Speaker 7: you didn't want to talk about this, but it goes
• 17:37
  Speaker 7: to the idea of locking the scene down and securing
• 17:40
  Speaker 7: the scene and processing it from the beginning. You know
• 17:43
  Speaker 7: when you have this implanted in your brain as an investigator,
• 17:47
  Speaker 7: that this is a suicide and that's the narrative you're
• 17:50
  Speaker 7: going to run with instead of coming in with a
• 17:52
  Speaker 7: clean slate and pushing everybody out of the door, working
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  Speaker 7: the damn scene, locking the thing down so that you
• 17:57
  Speaker 7: can get everybody out there. You're behind the eight ball
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  Speaker 7: at that point in time, because you've already predisposed yourself
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  Speaker 7: to the way you're going to look at it from
• 18:05
  Speaker 7: a physical science perspective.
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  Speaker 1: She was right in the middle of making a fruit salad.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, her body was found with a completely clean
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: and pristine washrag in her left hand, and then she
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: suddenly decides, Oh, you know what, screw the fruit salad.
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  Speaker 1: I'm killing myself right now in the most painful way
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  Speaker 1: I possibly can.
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  Speaker 7: Can I please interject something here real quickly?
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: I will I stop you?
• 18:30
  Speaker 7: No, you can't. So for me. I've worked two cases
• 18:34
  Speaker 7: in my career where an individual has died of self
• 18:37
  Speaker 7: inflicted stab wounds. I'm not talking about incized wounds where
• 18:41
  Speaker 7: the wrist is cut. I'm talking about stab wounds Nancy.
• 18:43
  Speaker 7: In both In both of those cases, the individual was
• 18:49
  Speaker 7: wildly psychotic. In both of these cases, as a matter
• 18:52
  Speaker 7: of fact, one guy had done it, and he was
• 18:55
  Speaker 7: a paranoid, schizphrenic, and he thought that he was being
• 18:58
  Speaker 7: listened to by the government looking for microphones in his body.
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  Speaker 7: Do you understand what I'm saying here. That's the level
• 19:05
  Speaker 7: of pain that this extends to, that you would have
• 19:08
  Speaker 7: to be out of your mind. And to the best
• 19:11
  Speaker 7: of my knowledge, and I've talked to Sandy and to
• 19:14
  Speaker 7: Josh over the years since we've been covering this, there's
• 19:16
  Speaker 7: no indication that this was going on with Ellen, that
• 19:19
  Speaker 7: she was having some kind of psychotic break.
• 19:21
  Speaker 8: The Chester County District Attorney's Office says detectives reviewed investigations
• 19:25
  Speaker 8: of the case conducted by the Philadelphia Police and Attorney
• 19:28
  Speaker 8: General's office. The detectives also conducted new interviews and consulted
• 19:32
  Speaker 8: with an independent forensic expert. A spokesperson for the Chester
• 19:35
  Speaker 8: County DA's office says this standard of proof beyond a
• 19:38
  Speaker 8: reasonable doubt makes the criminal investigation different than other legal
• 19:43
  Speaker 8: cases or issues that surround Miss Greenberg's death.
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  Speaker 1: Joining us an all star panel to make sense of
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: this bizarre twist and the Ellen Greenberg murder. Yes, I
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: said murder, because it is not a suicide. Joining me.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: In addition to Ellen's parents, who devoted their time, their energy, years,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: their life savings, they just sold their house to seek
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: justice with a fleet of experts to John Lucy joining
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: me in addition to Josh and Sandy Greenberg. John, the
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: expert that the state used consulted with is actually a
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: guy that has an undergrad degree. Hey, I got an
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: undergrad degree in Shakespeare studies, but I am not an
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: expert that said, really, that's what they're hanging their hat on.
• 20:37
  Speaker 5: Well, I have to agree with Ellen Ellen's parents here
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: where this investigation was shallow at best. And I certainly
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: agree with all your experts on this panel who point
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: up all the reasons forensically why this is a homicide
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: not a suicide. But you know your intro talked about
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: in Pennsylvania, medical examiners and corners are right even when
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: they are wrong under Pennsylvania law. And that is the
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: real problem with this case. It's fighting, it's fighting the law,
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: not the evidence. And that's where we're at in Pennsylvania
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: Supreme Court, fighting the law not the evidence. And that's
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: really the problem why pretty much any investigation based on
• 21:31
  Speaker 5: whether this whether there was a crime committee is kind
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: of a non starter as long as it's branded with
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: that suicide ruling, which I think that has to be changed.
• 21:42
  Speaker 5: First for all the other stuff that we wanted to
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: happen to go forward.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Tom Brennan joining me now, private investigator who has been
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: working on this case with the Greenbergs from the get go.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Tom Brennan, we keep saying it's a suicide ruling. It's
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: a suicide ruling. B s. It was originally named within
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: twenty four hours this is a homicide, which it is,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: And then which we have documented, there was a secret
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: meeting between the medical examiner that called it a homicide,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: a member from the DA's office who has now been
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: given immunity so she can't be prosecuted for this high immunity,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: and people from the police department. And in that meeting,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: which nobody will tell us what happened. Oh hell no.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: In that meeting them actually says I was what would
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: you say, would you say coerced? No, I was persuaded
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: to change my ruling from a homicide to suicide. It's
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: total bs. It stinks to high heaven. What is wrong
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: with the Chester District Attorney? Do they not have any
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: balls at all?
• 23:01
  Speaker 9: What you have to understand, okay, with this case. It
• 23:07
  Speaker 9: was in the Attorney General's office. The folks in the
• 23:10
  Speaker 9: Attorney General's office. Were the same folks that were in
• 23:13
  Speaker 9: the DA's office when this crime occurred. Okay, so now they're.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Reviewing that, they're sticking to their story, right right, forty
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: six one.
• 23:26
  Speaker 10: Spider Rock Road, please Herry, Yeah, I just I went
• 23:34
  Speaker 10: downstairs to go work out. I came back up the
• 23:36
  Speaker 10: door and the lash my face inside.
• 23:39
  Speaker 11: She wasn't she wasn't answering.
• 23:40
  Speaker 10: So after about a half hour, I decided to break
• 23:43
  Speaker 10: it down. I see her now it's on the floor before.
• 23:46
  Speaker 10: She's not she's not responding. Okay, keep breathing. I can
• 23:51
  Speaker 10: look at her test.
• 23:52
  Speaker 6: I needing to calm down.
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: I need to test, Okay, I really.
• 23:58
  Speaker 10: Someone going away, look her chest, bet on bank, We'll
• 24:03
  Speaker 10: get her test and tell me. And just going to
• 24:04
  Speaker 10: open out, open down.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I don't see her moving just she wasn't exactly on
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: her back?
• 24:09
  Speaker 7: Why she no, she wasn't. She was not on her back.
• 24:14
  Speaker 7: And you know that that's something that has you know,
• 24:17
  Speaker 7: gotten into the narrative of this, which is quite fascinating
• 24:21
  Speaker 7: to me. And there's one other thing that kind of
• 24:23
  Speaker 7: really stands out about this call what's missing as far
• 24:27
  Speaker 7: as information goes relative to this, and it comes up
• 24:30
  Speaker 7: a little bit later. I'm not trying to bury the lead.
• 24:32
  Speaker 7: But what about the knife?
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know I've embedded in her chest. Listen to
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: more than nine to one one.
• 24:37
  Speaker 10: Okay, you know.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: How is this CBR?
• 24:39
  Speaker 10: I go, okay, I'm gonna tell you what to do
• 24:42
  Speaker 10: until they get here.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: Ye.
• 24:46
  Speaker 10: Well the CDR with me over.
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: The Okay, so you know her bank for her chest bag.
• 24:53
  Speaker 6: Over for sure?
• 24:54
  Speaker 12: All okay, yeeld me.
• 24:57
  Speaker 6: Out by her side.
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: Merger.
• 25:00
  Speaker 10: Please you can't freak out. Okay, I'm trying. I'm trying to.
• 25:06
  Speaker 10: Her shirt won't come off as a zipper. She stabbed
• 25:09
  Speaker 10: herself where her nice sticking out the nice sticking out
• 25:16
  Speaker 10: of her hunter does he stands herself? I guess. So
• 25:20
  Speaker 10: I don't know where she's felling it. I don't know. Okay, Well,
• 25:22
  Speaker 10: don't take it.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: And there in the nine on one call. That is
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: the first time suicide or accident is stated. O MG.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: She stabbed herself, then later she fell on a nine.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Joining me is Matthew Mangino, high profile lawyer and author
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: of the Executioner's Toll. Matthew uh former prosecutor in Lawrence
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: County in Pennsylvania. Matthew me Gino. That's where we first here,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: she stabbed herself or there was an accent that she
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: fell on the knife twenty times Matthew, Why is it
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: that when a medical examiner admits he was pressured by
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: police to change his ruling, and I believe Guillino, who
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: was his supervisor, later said he would change if he could,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: he would change the medical examiner decision. But why is
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: it when it's so obviously wrong, that that cannot be challenged?
• 26:37
  Speaker 12: Matt Well, you know that's the law in Pennsylvania, that's
• 26:41
  Speaker 12: the manner in which the legislature approached this issue.
• 26:45
  Speaker 11: I don't agree with it.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 26:48
  Speaker 11: My impression about this is that you have a botched
• 26:51
  Speaker 11: investigation and then you have a cover up, and that
• 26:56
  Speaker 11: cover up by the DA's office the police ultimately led
• 27:02
  Speaker 11: to the Attorney General reviewing this and Chester County, And
• 27:05
  Speaker 11: I think you have to sort of read between the lines.
• 27:08
  Speaker 12: With regard to Chester County. They're saying, hey, there's problems
• 27:11
  Speaker 12: here and we don't think we can prove this case.
• 27:15
  Speaker 12: But you know, there may be you know, light at
• 27:18
  Speaker 12: the end of the tunnel if this was properly investigated.
• 27:21
  Speaker 12: Because there's no statutical limitations in Pennsylvania.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Would it could have, should have man Gino if it
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: was properly investigated. Isn't it their duty to properly investigate it?
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Why have Josh and Sandy had to spend their life
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: savings and sell their home to investigate this case. Why
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: doesn't the district attorney get off his rear end and
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: do something. Yeah, they can't prove it beyond a reasonable
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: doubt unless they get up and try.
• 27:49
  Speaker 12: And I think that's one thing that they didn't count
• 27:52
  Speaker 12: on in the situation when when they when they botched
• 27:55
  Speaker 12: the investigation and then they tried to cover it up
• 27:58
  Speaker 12: by putting pressure on the medical examiner. They never contemplated
• 28:03
  Speaker 12: that the Greenberg family would not give up on this,
• 28:07
  Speaker 12: that they would continue to fight and fight year after
• 28:11
  Speaker 12: year after year, and ultimately, I think because of their efforts,
• 28:15
  Speaker 12: this matter can still be put on the front burner
• 28:20
  Speaker 12: and properly investigated and brought before a jury to bring
• 28:25
  Speaker 12: some justice to Ellen into her family.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Just can't believe it's gone on so long, and isn't
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: it true? Been an Hour who extensively investigated the case herself,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: co author of What Happened to Ellen All proceeds going
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: to National Center Missing Exploited Children, Repeat all proceeds, Beney.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Isn't it true that doctor Osborne's supervisor, the medical examiner,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: said that he would change the ruling if he could,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: that to homicide or at least to undetermined.
• 29:03
  Speaker 6: Absolutely. Absolutely. There has been no even signal that anybody
• 29:11
  Speaker 6: is willing to change a single thing. It just makes
• 29:15
  Speaker 6: everything feel messier, more questionable, more like a possible cover up.
• 29:21
  Speaker 6: Everybody is.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: I disagree. I disagree because John Lucy Gillino, who was
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Osborne who made the ruling boss, says he would change
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: the ruling. Osbourne admits he thought it was a homicide
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: until police and the district attorney assist. A district attorney
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: pressured him to change it to suicide. Well, what else
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: is there? That's all I need to hear.
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: Well, my answer is someone needs to stroke a pen
• 29:51
  Speaker 5: on the dotted line and change it. Then verbally doesn't
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: get it done, They have to sign the document changing
• 29:59
  Speaker 5: it back to homicide where it was the twenty four
• 30:03
  Speaker 5: hours after her death.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg's parents want to know why the judge, uncle
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: to Ellen's fiance, was allowed to remove items from the
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: scene before the police searched.
• 30:25
  Speaker 10: I went away off here. Oh my god, Oh my god,
• 30:32
  Speaker 10: all her arm at least she was about to pay.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Y's.
• 30:46
  Speaker 10: Her hands are so warm me. I know, but you
• 30:50
  Speaker 10: can't in the nicest fill my sad. How far can
• 30:52
  Speaker 10: you see? How far I win?
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Is it?
• 30:54
  Speaker 10: Look okay?
• 30:57
  Speaker 11: Warmer so qushing is anything.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: I can't believe?
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Matthew Mangino joining US high profile lawyer who prosecuted and
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: defense in Pennsylvania, this jurisdiction, Matthew Mangino in a nutshell?
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Don't there any Latin phrases at me? What if anything
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: can be done? Now? The age who works for the governor,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: who is Shapiro, who earlier shirked his duty on this case,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: he's not going to confess to that now, What if
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: anything can be done? Matthew, Well, I.
• 31:35
  Speaker 12: Think, just like any cold case, this investigation can be
• 31:39
  Speaker 12: you know, reinstituted. You know, the detectives can take another
• 31:43
  Speaker 12: look at it. They can look at the evidence that
• 31:47
  Speaker 12: was found there. Although we know there's a sort of
• 31:49
  Speaker 12: contaminated crime. They can begin to question in canvas and
• 31:54
  Speaker 12: go back and interview people to find out more about
• 31:57
  Speaker 12: the dynamics of this relationship. As well, I.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Guess what I'm asking Tom Brennan, even on the case
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: from the very beginning, is say what he just said,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: in an ideal world would be true. But we know
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: that's not happening. They're not reinvestigating it. So practically speaking, Tom,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: what can be done? Now?
• 32:15
  Speaker 9: Did they reinterview Phil Hamton okay, who who was working
• 32:21
  Speaker 9: in the lobby.
• 32:22
  Speaker 6: No?
• 32:23
  Speaker 9: Did they ever reinterview Melissa ware, the property manager.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: No?
• 32:29
  Speaker 9: Did they ever reinterview doctor Lucy Rourke who in the
• 32:35
  Speaker 9: autopsy report she's quoted as saying that the stab wounds
• 32:41
  Speaker 9: are such that are not that grave and the victim
• 32:45
  Speaker 9: could continue to harm herself. And Lucy Rourke says, no,
• 32:48
  Speaker 9: I never was involved in the case. Did they reinterview
• 32:52
  Speaker 9: any of those people?
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: No?
• 32:54
  Speaker 9: Why not? If you're doing a complete, thorough investigation, why
• 32:59
  Speaker 9: don't you interview those people.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: So we know that. My question is what recourse is there?
• 33:06
  Speaker 7: Now?
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: That's what I keep asking, and I'm not getting an answer, John, Lucy,
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: is there anything that can be done now? As Brennan
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: and man Gina just said, yeah, they could do blah
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: blah blah. Yeah, that's all true, but they're not they're
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: not investigating this case. They're not uncovering the wrongdoing that
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: was done at the scene when it was just taken
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: for granted. Oh yeah, this is a suicide case. Closed,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: let's go home. They authorized and even suggested a pro
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: cleaner to clean the crime scene, getting rid of all
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: the evidence. They said, sure, family members, not the Greenberg's
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: family members or others can take items. Sure they can
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: take the laptop and all of the recent searches and
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: the contact with Yeah, sure take it. The police did that.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: But most disturbingly is that secret meeting where the medical
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: examiner was told change this from homicide to suicide and
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: he did it that. Why can't that be investigated?
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: Well, I think what can be done are what Josh
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: and Sandy are doing. They are suing the Philadelphia Medical
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: Examiner and the detectives involved in the case, alleging a conspiracy.
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: They're challenging the suicide ruling at the Pennsylvania Supreme Court,
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: and they are winning because of Tom's team and all
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: the evidence they've amassed over ten years. They are winning
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: in the court of public opinion. So they're doing everything
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: that they can to put these guys under oath and
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: depositions and find out what really happened at that secret meeting.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: They're doing that.
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: They're trying to get this law in Pennsylvania. They're trying
• 35:05
  Speaker 5: to find a hole in that law so that they
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: can change the suicide ruling or vacate it. And they
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: are putting all the evidence that they've amassed out there
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: in the court of public opinion, and they are opening
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: eyes again and again, and the more that people hear
• 35:21
  Speaker 5: about this case, the more it sticks.
• 35:24
  Speaker 8: Forensic pathologist doctor Wayne k Ross is commissioned by the
• 35:27
  Speaker 8: Greenbergs to review the case. Doctor Ross says there's evidence
• 35:30
  Speaker 8: of strangulation. Ross says there's a mark over the front
• 35:33
  Speaker 8: of the neck and in the strap muscles over the
• 35:35
  Speaker 8: right side of the neck, claiming these patterns are compatible
• 35:38
  Speaker 8: with a manual strangulation. Ross also points out the number
• 35:41
  Speaker 8: of bruises over different parts of Greenberg's body are consistent
• 35:44
  Speaker 8: with the repeated beatings. He writes, it is my opinion
• 35:47
  Speaker 8: that the investigating authorities should pursue this case as a homicide.
• 35:50
  Speaker 8: It is further my opinion, to a reasonable degree of
• 35:52
  Speaker 8: medical certainty, that the manner of death is a homicide.
• 35:55
  Speaker 8: The scene findings were indicative of a homicide to Josh.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: And Sandy green who We've spent years fighting this completely
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: erroneous ruling of suicide. I don't understand why everyone within
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: that government has teamed up to cover up the sloppy investigation.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: There are forces that I do not understand, but I
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: can tell you this was not suicide to you, Sandy,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: How do you find the strength to keep fighting?
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: It's part of my constitution. When you love your child
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: and you love your family, this is what you do.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: We've made sacrifices, and we have our own feelings about
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: the direction we want to go in. The more they
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: perpetuate the lies, and it's in the public forum, it's
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: in the universe Philadelphia. I cannot understand how the public
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: in Philadelphia tolerates this type of behavior. But the longer
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: it goes on, the more we find out, and the
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: more their lives get deeper and deeper. And I'm not
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: going away, and I don't know. I think they expected
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: us to die by now, but unfortunately, where fortunately that's
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: not the case. We're stronger than ever and I'm not
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: going to rest until we have resolved.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: You know, Josh Greenberg. Whenever I feel like I've done
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: something wrong. I feel hot all over. I think about
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: it over and over and over and rehash it in
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: my mind. I don't know how they can live with
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: themselves knowing that this was ruled a homicide, and it
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: only after a secret meeting with an Ada Assistant district
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: attorney and law enforcement. The medical examiner says he was
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: pressured to rule it a suicide. I mean, I don't
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: understand how they can live with this lie because.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: They're not good people. There are people in this world
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: who are not good people, who are just bad, bad people.
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: I hope every time these people look at a girl
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: or a twenty seven year old woman, they see my daughter,
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: because that's what they're putting away. That's who they're chastising,
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: that's who they're torturing, and that's who they're not giving
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: justice to.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: When you think of Ellen, Josh, what is your most
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: vivid memory?
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: Ellen getting hit in the face by a soft ball
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: and me hopping over a fence to help her because
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: nobody else there could do it. And I put ice
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: on her and she wouldn't go to school and her
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: face swelled up and the only one she had there
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: was me.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: You know, Josh, I just wish that right now you
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: could hop over a fence and fix everything like you
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: did then.
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: I'm trying.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: You sure are sandy when you think of Ellen. When
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: you fall asleep at night and you think of Ellen,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: what is your most vivid memory.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 39:20
  Speaker 9: My head.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: My head is no.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: I'm kind of worn out. Like as long as I
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: still want to fight, which I am, it is very
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: emotionally taxing, taxing to the point where I'm in physical
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: pain in my shoulders. I can't raise my arms up
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: comfortably because I have so much tension. Yet I put
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: one foot in front of the other. I try to
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: get my rest, I try to take my supplements. I
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: try to live a wholesome life. And I feel that
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: justice will prevail. And there's a lot of people that
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: can rotten Hell.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: I pray that we get justice. I pray, I've been praying,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I've been trying. I just pray that we can all
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: hold on and somehow the tide will turn for Ellen.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: There is a court hearing December eleven, and if you
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: can hear our voices, we ask you to lift up
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: your prayers, your good thoughts for Ellen Greenberg on this
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: hearing December eleven. We wait and pray as justice unfolds.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Thank you to Josh and Sandy for joining us and
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: all of our guests, especially to you for being with
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: us and keeping Ellen's cause alive. Nancy Grace signing off,
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: goodbye friend,