Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / Taylor Swift’s Mistake, Sherri Papini and Karen Read with Matt Murphy, Prosecutor

Transcript

Taylor Swift’s Mistake, Sherri Papini and Karen Read with Matt Murphy, Prosecutor · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: for it? This exclusive place that Dad has connections with.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: They have more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: It's Dunaidial. Where? Dunaidial. There's an accent on the E.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Do you mean... Yes, I got it on Dundale Cars.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Lift?
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Please. Are you going past Kimmage? Oh, Kimmage.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: No.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Dundale Cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else. Heather MacDonald
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: has got the Juicy Scoop. When you're on the road,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: to know.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: She talks Hollywood tales, her real life, Mr.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Saving Serial Data, and Serial Sisters.
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: You'll be addicted and addicted.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Listen in, listen up. Woo, woo. Heather MacDonald. Juicy Scoop.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, as always, I
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: have such a juicy show. I have returned guest Matt Murphy.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: We're getting into all these juicy crimes. He's a former prosecutor.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: So great. First, I want to thank everybody that came
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: to my shows this past weekend. Tampa at the Hard
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Rock Casino was so much fun and same with Orlando.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: And we had the best time. I brought Brandon. It
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: was just so great. I just want to show you
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: this one photo. This cute Juicy Scooper took a bottle
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: of Rumbauer and crystallized it. Hand done crystals, just like
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: this cup from a different Juicy Scooper. Now, listen, if
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: you're coming to my show, you're bringing me a gift.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I need you to make sure that you tell me
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: your name and give me a card with like the
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: at whatever for their intro. I can personally thank you
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: because I get these gifts and I love them. And
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: I can't remember the girl who made me this. but
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: this is the cute girl who made me that. Anyway,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: everyone's cute. I got chocolate chip cookies. I got homemade
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: apricot jam. And some people say, are you afraid to
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: eat it? No, I'm not. We ate everything. We love it.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: I love meeting my juicy scoopers. The shows were so,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: so fun. And next up is July 27th in San Diego,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Humphreys by the Bay, outdoor, gorgeous weather. Julie Goldman will
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: be joining me. Then I'm going to Houston, Dallas, and Austin,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: August 8th, 9th, and 10th. And then I'm in Saratoga
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: winery country in California with the fabulous Chris Frangiola and
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: then Vegas in September with Brandy and Julie. So everything
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: is at heathermcdonald.net. Make sure you buy your tickets there.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: And also you can join my Patreon. So make sure
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: you get it. So you're not bummed out. You don't
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: miss out. And then there's a bunch of other fall dates. Okay.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: First of all, um, Oh, here I am dancing around.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Brittany Brave also opened for me. She's a very funny comedian.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: We had so much fun. Okay. I woke up to
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: this story being sent to me by probably over 100 people.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: They said, Heather, why are you always right? You're the
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: first person I thought of. Should we be concerned? And
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: I say, yes, we should. I am talking about the
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: fact that Taylor Swift did a new bit on stage
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: at her heiress tour with her boyfriend, football player, Travis Kelsey.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: As Juicy Scoopers, you know, I've had concern about his
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: thirst and also her wanting to emasculate him, not emasculate him,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: emasculate him, make him think he is more funny, more
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: charming than he is. Now, this was her choice to
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: put him in this bit. And I'm sure 99.999 Swifties
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: absolutely love it. And they're mad that I'm thinking it's
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: anything but a delightful sight for the eyes and ears. However,
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: I do not think this is good for the relationship.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: First of all, I think he should have already asked
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: her to marry him by now. And I think putting
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: him in this bit, it's just too... It's dork. It's dork.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: It's dorky. It was corny. Now, I have yet to
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: go to a Taylor Swift concert. I love her songs.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: You know I've been behind this relationship. But the fact
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: that so many people sent it to me shows me
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: that you had concern as well. The bit is... And
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: I only saw from like what page six showed. She's
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: like a little doll, like a dead doll or something.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: And they bring her out and he's wearing like tails
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: tuxedo from like, I don't know, the 20s. And they
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: have a kind of music. And he's with two other guys.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: And the crowd's going crazy because they see that it's him.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: And then he's doing her makeup. And then she takes
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: off her clothes and he's like, I can't believe she's
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: so pretty. I don't know what this was. It's my
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: opinion it was a mistake. It was a mistake for
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: their future of their relationship. He's already got a talk
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: show that he's doing, a game show. He already has
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: sung at certain events. Now people said, Heather, is it okay?
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: He didn't sing. He just danced. I think that could
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: be worse. She made him a comedic backup dancer. It's
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: I'm going to say a prayer. I want them to
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: work out. I don't want you to attack me for
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: my opinion, but it's everything that I feared. It's everything
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: that I predicted would not work out if this happened.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I don't want my predictions to come true. People are like, Heather,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: why are you even putting it out in the universe?
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to pray that this was a one
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: and done, that they get engaged and get married and
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: have babies. And he continues to play football and keep
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: his podcast and leave it at that, that he doesn't
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: become a professional dancer or country singer. But It's looking
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: like everything I feared is coming true, and I apologize
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: for that. Good luck to you. I did an emergency
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Taylor Swift video about it, and most people are agreeing
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: with me right when I found out. So you can
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: find that on Instagram. Of course, follow me. Are you
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: actually listening to Juicy Scoop and you're not following me
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: on Instagram? Crazy. All right, you guys. Now let's get
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: into the juiciest crimes ever with Matt Murphy. Hello and
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: welcome to Juicy Scoop. I am very excited and you
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: are going to be too because I have a return guest.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Prosecutor turned commentator turned now author. Juicy Scoop regular Matt Murphy,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Catholic schoolboy turned good guy. Welcome back to Juicy Scoop.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I was telling my son Drake because he drove me
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: to the studio so I could work on what we're
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: going to talk about today. And I said how we met.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: And I go, well, the story is kind of great
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: in that we rented this house for five weeks in
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: the summer in Newport. And my friend, Kate Casey, who
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: a lot of people know, she's got a great podcast too.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: She lives in Newport and she goes, you know, you're
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: staying in that gated community where one of the juiciest
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: crimes ever happened. She told me about the crime and
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: I'm like, why does this sound familiar? And I go
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: to YouTube and I watched the 2020 on it and
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: you were part of it. And so was this other
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: guy that I knew from college who was like basically
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: the woman, which we already talked about in that episode
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: years ago. This woman was Goldinger. She got an older
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: guy and she hired the boyfriend to kill him.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: And you were the prosecutor.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: That was one of the cold cases that we did
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: where you go in and you literally dust off the
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: old boxes and you go in with a couple investigators.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: And I was assigned to Newport as a vertical prosecutor
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: for the homicide unit.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: So.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: Um, I did all the murders for 17 years and
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: that was one that I knew about. And we thought
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: we'd get DNA, um, because there was a couple of
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: clues left. There was a key stuck in the lock
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: and there was some expended shell casings and we didn't
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: get anything like that, but the case was so fascinating.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: And we dug in and kind of had a new
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: set of eyes and you were staying about, I don't know,
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: maybe a dozen or so houses down the street from
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: where that happened. And the, the family, they haven't changed anything.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: The new family that lives there, um, The door is
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: the same. The crime scene is virtually unchanged. I know.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: And it made it so interesting because after I watched that,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: then I went down, then I contacted you. And then
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: you came to the house in Newport and we did
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: our first Juicy Scoop. And you are a commentator for
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: mostly 2020, but other ABC News on lots of different crimes,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: which we're going to get into all the juiciest crimes.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: But I will just first say that you have your
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: first book out, The Book of Murder. And it's available
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: for pre-order. It comes out September 17th.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: So this is.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: A great time pre-order you guys. That means once you
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: get it, you can leave a five-star review or not,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: not telling anybody, but I probably, and, um, and tell
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: us a little bit about the book.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: So it's, um, it is, I had a, I, I,
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: I had a dinner with City I Knew right when
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: I started putting it together. And essentially, it's my story
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: of my time in the homicide unit. So it's coming
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: in knowing nothing about murders and what I learned along
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: the way and some of the cases I got to do.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: But I had this dinner where I was trying to
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: figure out how to write it. And I've never written
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: a book before. And I want to pour my heart
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: and soul into this thing. And I hope people don't
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: hate it. I think it'll be interesting. Hopefully, it'll be educational.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: but this woman I was with, I'm explaining like, you know,
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: I've got this, I don't know. I don't really know
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: the approach. And I, you know, I had these small
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: journals that I'd written at the time that.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: I was so valuable. Yeah.
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: That I was able to go back to, but it
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: was all my stony thoughts. And she kind of waved
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: her hand and goes, nobody's going to be interested in your,
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: your personal musings on this. And yeah, and it was,
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: and I was, it kind of hurt my feelings and
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: I was walking home. I got a, place in New
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: York for my work with ABC. And I thought about it.
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: And so I quadrupled down on all the personal musings.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: So this is very much like interpersonal from my perspective.
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: I start with my very first crime scene that I
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: ever went to. Well, my first murder scene and how
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: I was going through a breakup at the time and
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: how that all sort of came together. And I told
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: you the story. Yeah. One of them about how I
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: went up dating this woman who I caught her making
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: out with a guy at a wedding. And it was
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: so juicy. It was her. It was one of those
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: horrific moments in life that turned into something kind of awesome.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: So I wasn't I have an annual surf trip to
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: Indonesia every year with a bunch of buddies. And I
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: was skipping that year because I just gotten promoted to homicide.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: And I, you know, she took me to this away
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: wedding and I told him I couldn't go. And I
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: catch her making out with this guy she's took up
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: with in college. And it was horrific.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: So like after like the day of drinking and the
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: reception's over.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: It's two in the morning.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: And you like turn the corner and there's your girlfriend.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: Making out with some dude she used to hook up
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: with in college. Right. And it's like some, it's some
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: obscure little hotel in Napa.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: Like a hundred years old, like surrounded by wineries and
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: you can picture the scene.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: And I'm at, I'm at the bar and I'm, I
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: go to the bathroom and I'm walking down this old,
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: like dark hallway. And there's this couple making out in
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: the corner and I look and it's like, oh, it's
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: It's my girlfriend in the last nine months. And so I,
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: you know, that kind of ended that. And I called
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: my buddy Sean because now I really wanted to go
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: on the surf trip. And I go, I get on
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: the last minute. There was still an open spot. Long
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: story short, the captain of the boat of the surf
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: charter was a very colorful character named Gary Burns. Great guy.
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: We became friends. But Gary had seen some of the
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: seedier side of the boating world, which I knew nothing about. And,
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: you know, I spent 10 days on this boat with
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: him and had some great conversations with him. And he
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: was like kind of my outlaw friend. And I was
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: his prosecutor friend. And three months later, Tom and Jackie
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: Hawks went missing from their yacht in Newport Beach. And
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: we'd worked that boat up.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: And you were the prosecutor on that and you had
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: that better knowledge from meeting him and everything.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: But I didn't yet. I knew nothing. So we did
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: two forensic workups on the boat, couldn't find a thing.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: And we were at a dead end about a month
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: and a half into that investigation. And I called Gary
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: in Australia and I'm like, hey, if we think a
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: murder happened on a boat, what should we be looking for?
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: And without missing a beat, he said, look for a
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: missing anchor. If they're selling the boat, it'll be on
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: a manifest. Look for that. And it had been staring
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: us in the face the whole time. Sure enough, missing
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: anchor on the boat, that means they were tied to it.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: And from that- The couple who owned the boat.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Because they were tricked by some grifters, criminals that acted
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: like they wanted to buy it and they took them out, right,
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: to show them the boat and then they tossed them
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: over and stole the boat.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: Right. So I do a whole chapter on that in
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: the book.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a really juicy one too.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: Thank God for cheating girlfriends because it literally, it led
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: to the- The break we needed in that case and
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: their whole house of cards came tumbling down. We prosecuted everybody.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: I always, you know, think of that too. And maybe
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: like it's faith that we share or whatever. But in
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: my life, there's been so many times when something's happened
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: and I have regret. Oh, I should have picked up
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: the phone. I wish I would have done this. But
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: then every single time a moment will happen, whether it's
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: three months later or three years later or whatever, where
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: I'll be like, you know what? If I had acted
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: differently in that moment that I had regret or if
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: that person didn't show you who they were, I wouldn't
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: have done this, wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: ended up this much better place. So I definitely do
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: feel like people always say, oh, everything happens for a reason.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, really, it does. But I also feel like
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: everything does happen the way it's supposed to be. besides
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: a horrible tragedy, but like, you know, like things like this,
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: losing a job, having a breakup, not getting maybe the
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: house or moving to the city that you wanted to
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: at the time when you're heartbroken. And then you realize, oh,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: thank God that worked out that way.
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: You know, it's, it's bizarre.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: It really is.
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: It's like you, our lowest moments often turn into our
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: best victories. And that was one that like my little
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: stupid broken heart turned into this critical moment in this
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: really cracking a case yeah and a brutal one.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: And putting away someone that could have done this to
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: many many more people and been horrible.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah looking for a getaway that's truly special Ireland's Blue
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• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Escape I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: week on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: who have faced tremendous setbacks, and yet somehow have found
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: a way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Life is one long lesson of chaos. I'm heading to
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: the Emmys, and I have police complaints filed against me.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: what would you do if it was given back?
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Where did that need come from, where you thought that
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: you had to succeed in order to feel loved?
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: He said, I have a work dad.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: I need a home dad.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: What happens next? When I came in, he started crying.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Everybody in life encounters hardships. What defines them is not
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: those hard moments that they go through.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: It's about what happens next.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: I decided to risk it all. I realized how valuable
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: every day was.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: You're worth the work.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Listen, Dara, I'm not going to pull punches. You can
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: use your voice even if it's shaped.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: The stories are different, but the impact is the same.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Only one question matters. What happens next?
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: So, um, let's talk about some, um, oh, but you
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: were saying one other thing that I told you something
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: about haters when we met three years ago and I
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: was like, save it for the pod.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: It's the funniest thing. It's, um, so now I've been doing, uh,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: with ABC news, um, I've been doing some podcasts and
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: they've got me promoting the book a little bit. And
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: I did, um, I did Megan Kelly show and she
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: couldn't have been nicer by the way. She could not
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: have been nicer or more professional. And, you know, I, I, I've,
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: could have no social media as a DA because you
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: get death threats and all that. And now I've become
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: a 13 year old girl on Instagram. And I'm constantly like,
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: and I'm, it's, I'm reading the comments, which I shouldn't do.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: And it, but it's, it's like, I'll get like 30
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: really nice comments like on the Megyn Kelly show. And
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: then a hater that, that is so just, they're so mean.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: And I had one that was like, I commented about that.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: We were talking about Ed Shin and I was, which
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: is another chapter in the book. And it was this
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: guy who, who stole from his business partner and ripped
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: off millions of dollars and blew him on hookers and
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: gambling in Vegas, right? I guess I'm not supposed to
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: say hookers anymore.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: He blew the money on hookers, not he didn't blow
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: the partner.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: Right, right. He blew all of his money. Yeah, he
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: did not blow the partner. He blew the money in
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: Vegas on sex workers, I believe is the term I'm
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: supposed to use.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: But anyway, so she plays a clip from the actual
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: trial and I'm watching this and I'd forgotten how nice
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: his suit was. He wore Giorgio Armani- like bespoke suits
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: that he had done. And I'm looking at the clip
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: and the little clip, my comment was that guy had,
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: just for starters, his suit was more valuable than my
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: entire wardrobe. That was my comment. And there was a
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: comment online, like, I don't know anything about this case,
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: but the fact that Matt Murphy would comment about the
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: price of his suit says a lot about him as
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: a prosecutor. And it's like, You can't win.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: No, you can't. But, you know, when someone says something
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: like that, whether you're reading in a comment or whatever,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: and it's sort of that's kind of stabbing at your character.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I think that's where people, whether you're a prosecutor, comedian,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: a reality star, and the stab at your character is
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: not true. That's where you get like, oh, my God,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: that's not true. And I want to defend myself. And
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: you have to just learn to just be like. I'm
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: never going to win you over. If that's how you
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: feel about me, I'm not going to win you over
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: no matter what I do. You've decided you don't like me,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: and you're going to constantly look for things where you
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: can poke holes in my character.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: Right. But I'm really just going, dude, who hurt you?
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: All I know is it wasn't me.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Okay. So last night, we just started watching the Hulu doc,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: which is several episodes. I'm one and a half in.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: The Sherry Papini story, which- To bring people up to date, though,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: if you're a juicy scooper, I started talking about this
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: the moment it happened, which was in 2016 because I've
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: had the show for nine years. And this is a
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: really pretty blonde, two little kids, like two and four,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: married to an equally cute guy, was in Reading. He
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: comes home from work. She is not there. He said
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: she must be on a run. But then she didn't come.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Or he thought she must have taken the kids, picked
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: up the kids. He finds out the kids are still
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: at daycare. He finds her iPhone and her earbuds with
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: the plug and her blonde hair wrapped around it. They
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: call the police. Now, when this was happening, you know,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I was all part of reading all the stuff, too.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: And it was like, there supposedly is trafficking. And I thought,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: since she... was a young blonde and natural, no makeup.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, maybe they thought she was 16
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: and she'd be more valuable and all of this stuff.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: So she's gone for 22 days. And then on Thanksgiving day,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: she waves down a driver and she's chained and her
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: hair is chopped off. But though they never showed us
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: until I just saw the clips of the Hulu doc.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: The way they described her when they found her is
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: like we found her. She's been burned in a branded way,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: she has bruises, she looks completely different, her hair has
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: been chopped off. So I was imagining, because they wouldn't
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: show us, like the way you would take a Barbie
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: doll and cut off the hair, okay, and have it
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: look like a crazy person. In last night's episode where
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: I said I learned some new things, it was just
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: cut like a cute bob, which is important because I'm
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: going to root it for you guys and for my
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: son who started to watch it because he keeps going.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Because when it started, he's like, the husband's involved, the
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: husband's involved. But since this has been a story that's
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: been highly publicized, no, she faked the whole thing, which
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: we can talk some about that. But she faked the
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: whole thing for attention, obviously, and who knows what. But
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: I also remember hearing that people thought that they not,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: people did not really think, I believe, that she was
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: involved until she came back, and then her story didn't
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: seem to add up when she said, two Mexican women
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: are the ones who kidnapped me. And I was like, okay,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: so she's saying two women. Are they lesbians? Why would
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: they want to keep her? And then I was like,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: and if their goal was to traffic her, and they
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: never really told us the cops because they must have
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: been suspicious, which I want to ask you about, but
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: they never told us if she was sexually assaulted or not.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: And so I was like, if these people want to
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: traffic her, why are they destroying her looks by bruising
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: her and everything? Are they two Mexican women who are
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: just jealous that she's beautiful? It made no sense. And then,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: of course, we found out quite a bit later. How
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: much later did we find out that it was that
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: she was?
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: Well, I don't know when we officially found out. I
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: was still in the office when that happened. And we
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: were watching that. She turned up in Huntington Beach. So that's.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: That wasn't one of my cities, but I did a
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: bunch of murders with them. Yeah. That's a top-notch police department.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Now, tell us about the Huntington Beach. You can share
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: that part about how she was staying at this former
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: boyfriend's house. Yeah. It turns out she.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: Spent, what was it, 30 days or so or three
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: weeks with an ex-boyfriend from high school that she had
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: basically broken up with him and then married the guy
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: that she was with who is, in fact, by all accounts,
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: a really good guy.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: When she first went missing, the media, as we've seen,
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: when somebody goes missing, that's really when the media gears
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: up because people want to help find them. That captures
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: the public attention more than anything else, right?
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: And sadly, being a pretty white blonde, predominantly those people
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: get more press. But now there are so many people
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: that do press, myself included. I was obsessed with the
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: story too. So it's like you're getting traditional press. But
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: then you're getting people doing videos and discussing on social
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: media as well because of the circumstances of her looks, too.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Played a role.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And the thing is, you know, my head and
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: everybody else in law enforcement, when a woman like that
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: goes missing, you're not thinking they're being trafficked like, you know,
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: that Liam Neeson movie, what, Taken, right? Like that's I
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: guess it's real. It's real somewhere out there. But it's.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: What actually happens in those cases, those are rapist murderers.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: And those guys, those predators exist. They've existed forever. And unfortunately,
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: California right now, we're tacking back towards early release. And
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: there's more of those guys out there. And that's where
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: everybody's head goes. It's like, okay, she's been kidnapped, raped,
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: and she's going to be found. Dead. If she's ever found,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: she's going to be found dead. She's going to be
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: in a ditch. She's going to be raped, murdered. That's it.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: As soon as she turned up with that story, Every
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: cop in California, every prosecutor who's done murders said there
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: is– can I swear on this?
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: It's like that's– it's bullshit. There's no– that doesn't– her
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: story doesn't happen. She's kidnapped by two women. And you're
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: exactly right. You immediately eliminate every motive to actually do that.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: There's no sexual assault described.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Right. Okay.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: So you can't say that never happens, but that never happens.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: And then– so there's no sexual assault. There's no murder.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: They brutalize her looks exactly like you said. If they're
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: going to sell her in some way or in some
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: way trying to traffic her, that makes no sense. And
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: they branded her, don't forget. And the way she described that,
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: she described it as a hot tool, I think. Even
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: the description didn't make sense. None of it made sense.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: And immediately everybody knew that there was something radically off
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: of that. And then her ex-boyfriend, I think, came out. Well,
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: I'm kind.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Of excited to watch it because I was trying to
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: remember that. But basically, the way I remember reporting on
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: it in the past was I was like, oh, my God,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: this guy is not the sharpest tool in the shed.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: He just didn't seem very smart.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: The ex-boyfriend?
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: The ex-boyfriend. He believed her. She did the story of
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I'm with this abusive man. And so what I learned
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: from last night's show, which I didn't know, is the husband,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: there was viral video of of moments that they shared
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: of him being interrogated, but then also when she came in.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: But these interviews I'd never seen before. And in the
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: initial interviews, he was like, well, before we got married,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: after we got married, but before we had kids, I
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: saw text messages that she was texting with this guy
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: that she like met on a work trip. And so
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: he's like, so I did a post-nup with her. And
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: So he's like, so what would that mean, the cop said?
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: And he's like, if we were to get divorced, she
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: would have nothing. Not a car, nothing. Which I was
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: also like, well, that doesn't make you look very good, dude.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: But whatever, she agreed to sign it. But, you know,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: she was flirting and everything on text. So then that
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: guy or one of these, there were several guys that
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: she was flirting with. So then this one took the
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: bait and she said to that guy, too, I have
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: an abusive husband, this and that. He's like, okay. So
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: he made a plan to pick her up and then
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: they went to Huntington. And what I still don't know,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: and do you know, did she ever sleep with that boyfriend?
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Because from the initial reports, it was that she didn't.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: And I was like, this guy really is a chump.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Like he really did screw up.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: That's supposedly she did not. So imagine that. So that
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: guy has her staying there. Like he's like, he is the,
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: he's like a triple chump.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: Like you totally used, looks like a fool. And got
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: zero action as a result.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Yes. And what I also don't remember is like somehow
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: I want to say that– how did they– do you
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: recall how they found out that it was his house
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: and he was involved? I want to say like someone
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: in his life was like, you got to come forward.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: Like a cousin. I want to say like a cousin
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: or somebody was like, dude.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: But he did come forward and he cooperated.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: He did come forward. Like someone got him to come forward.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: And then what was interesting about Liars– is when she
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: described the room that she stayed in with, and then
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: what was crazy is she names the two girls Schmitty
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: and Taint.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Taint as in like your taint. And she goes Schmitty
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: was the big one. And Tate was the little one.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: And I felt like Tate wasn't as mean as Schmitty.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: I'm like, this is comical. Like, this is crazy. And so,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: but when I remember this, that she, in her describing
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: her lie to them about Schmitty and Tate, she described
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: the room exactly as the room that she actually stayed
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: at his place in Huntington. Like, where the window was
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: and all that, which is what? Tell me about liars.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: Which is the genius of... Every good liar will tell
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: you as much truth as they possibly can and then
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: they will insert the BS. Like Skyler Dillian, that case
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: we were just talking about. That guy was a gold
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: medalist liar.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Which story?
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: He was the killer of Tom and Jackie Hawks. Oh,
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: of the boat people. Yeah. And it was– he would
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: inject so much truth. So when you investigate it, it's like, hey, well,
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: they really were looking to sell their boat. They really
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: were looking to buy property in Mexico. And so when
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: the police go and they try to corroborate stuff, they–
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: They find things that are true and then they just
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: can't corroborate the lie. So it's like that's that's advanced lying.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: That's like that's that's varsity lying. And she was doing
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: some of that.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: And what's interesting in episode two, they start to get
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: into the lies that she told throughout her life.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: So she had these two like cuts that had kind
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: of slightly scarred over on her back that looked like
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: little wings. She told the husband that an ex-boyfriend took
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: two knives and went like that. She told a friend
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: that her dad did it. And, of course, she had
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: self-inflicted it.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: So these wounds that happened to her, they were all self-inflicted?
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: They were all self-inflicted.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Like very gone girl-ish.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And, you know, the problem with that, there's a
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: woman outside of Atlanta who just did something very similar.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: This is not a one-off. This is a, this is
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: a thing.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: What's the story in Atlanta?
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: Um, uh, same kind of thing. Um, she might've been
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: inspired by Sherry Papini. She went out, um, uh, on a,
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: on a run and, uh, I think she had headphones
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: that were found on the side of the road and
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: there was, she, she called 911 and said, there's a
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: child running across the road.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's right. I remember that story. Yes.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So this is, uh, Sherry Papini is, um, I
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: mean we've heard the phrase you're in good company. She's
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: in very bad company and that she's not alone here.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: The problem with this, of course, is that– and I've
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: been on the inside of these things. When you have
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: a woman that goes missing or a child that goes
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: missing or in the Atlanta case, it was both. She
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: said there's a child on the road and then, you know,
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: her phone cuts off. You know, every cop in that
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: entire area, you know, drops what they're doing and goes
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: to work on the case. It's like all hands on deck.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: And they did that with Sherry Papini.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: They did everything that they could. And, you know, there's
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: a lot of really like the vast majority of police
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: officers are hardworking, dedicated people, despite the bad press that
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: they've gotten the last couple of years. They're some of
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: the best humans I've met over the course of my life.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: And they drop anything they're working on to try to
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: find that poor woman or that poor kid. And, you know,
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: for this attention grab, whatever the motivation is for people
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: like to do this, they are hurting not only the
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: local community, every victim that that is losing ground on
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: their case. But for jurors, you know, because people like
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: this exist, you know, they're willing to entertain fanciful conspiracy
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: theory nonsense because people like Sherry Papini or the woman
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: outside of Atlanta are out there in the world and
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: they do crap like this. And it, it, it is
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: incredibly harmful. And one part of it, I do, I'm
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: doing criminal defense now. Right. So it's like, I, Yeah,
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: you switched it. Yeah. Yeah, but it's– but from a
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: rational point of view, it's like I can see this
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: woman's obviously got issues. But she's not mentally ill in
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: the sense that she's got some organic– she's not bipolar.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: She's not schizophrenic. She is somebody that is warped but
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: not mentally ill in the sense that it's mitigating in
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: any way.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Well, not mentally ill in the sense that you don't
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: know right from wrong and that kind of a thing.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah. So she did her time. They got divorced.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: She didn't show up for the divorce, but they got divorced.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: And she did not participate in this, which we can
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: understand why. And then she just talks to, according to him,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: he has full custody and she talks to the kids
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: on the phone like once a month. Okay.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: Which is the right thing, right? You give the husband
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: custody on that. How much time does she get again?
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: I don't have it in front of me, but it
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: wasn't that long. It was like a couple of years, max. And,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: you know, of course, but what just, you know, of
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: course I thought about the wasting of resources and stuff
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: like that. But my thing was like, first of all,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: how could you have left your two and four year
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: old for 20 days or whatever it was? Because especially
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: when they're that age, you crave like holding them and
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: touching them. And so like, that was extremely bizarre to me.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: But then when you see like her own sister and stuff, crying, remembering,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: thinking that her friend, her sister was dead and that,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: and they show the video when the When the best
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: friend tells her husband that they found her alive and
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: that you would ever put anyone through that. Of course,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: you don't want that person in your life ever again. Right.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: You're like, hey, what? Go. Go dye your hair brown.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Change your name. Go to another place. Maybe meet another guy.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Be a black widow. I don't know. But like, no,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: you're not going to. No one's going to forgive you
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: for that, no matter what you say or do.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: And I mean, yeah, you talk about the ultimate betrayal.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's the, and look, in a relationship like that,
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: the very first suspect there is always the husband.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's like, and he's going to get, and look,
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: there was that guy, I'm forgetting the name of the case,
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: where it was, it turned out, it sounded weird, but
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: it was real.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, that was with the couple. They just recently did
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: a doc on that one, which I remember that one too,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: which the couple, a guy came in in the middle
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: of the night and kidnapped her. And of course, no
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: one believed the weird story, but he really was a
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: psycho who just wanted to see if he could kidnap somebody.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: And the police. Yeah. And then they blew it. Yeah,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: they blew it.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: And they went after that guy super hard. The husband
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: and the boyfriend.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Boyfriend. Yeah.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: Boyfriend. Yeah.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: But in the end, they ended up getting married and
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: having kids and made money off the dock and sued.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: So good for them. But like it's because of stuff
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: like this that then people don't believe.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: The story.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Or it is the story of the. And unfortunately, you know,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: this I remember when I saw this and I do say, look,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: I'm not the only one that thinks it. But I
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: know where I was when the Jussie Smollett story came
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: out and I was about to go on Wendy Williams
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: as I get we were doing guest panels because she
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: was not doing the show at the time. And I
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: was like, this is a horrible story. But I remember
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: they told they were giving the details because they want
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: to talk about it. And they said two white men
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: had ski masks on. And I remember I said, well,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: how do we know they're white if they have ski
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: masks on?
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: And MAGA hats.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: And MAGA hats. But I was like, but how do
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: we know they're white? And I remember they were like,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: don't say that on the panel. And I was like, OK, right.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: So I just remember what I said. And I said,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: this is so horrible. And to me, this is domestic
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: terrorism because because I still felt like it could be fake,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: but I was like, whoever is the terrorist in this case,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: it was Jussie Smollett because he ignited an already horrible
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: situation socially in America by making us think another, that
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: people are so evil.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: You know, but then of course going out for a
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Subway sandwich as a young actor at two in the
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: morning in like zero 40 below zero, like all of it.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: But it's that thirst that like, That I just– I
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: think has been– like the people being thirsty for attention,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: we see it in real life with this woman, Cherry Papini.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: We see it a lot online with people making up stories, crying,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: acting like a victim, creating their own– bots and things
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: to go after themselves to look like a victim. It
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: is this whole thing. It's knowing that if you go
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: and do a crying video, you're going to get more
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: views than if you were just like, I had a
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: great day at a birthday party. It's so insane.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: I think that, first of all, anybody who hasn't seen
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: it yet should watch the Dave Chappelle breakdown on Jesse Small.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: It is absolutely biting.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: He calls him Juicy Small. Smollet or something.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: Smollet, it's French. Yeah. And it is, I think that that,
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: if there's culturally, what's going to help is Is when
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: people like that get mocked.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: It's like– because then there's a sense of shame to it.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the don't do it. Yeah.
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: It's like the old stocks that they used to do
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: in the Middle Ages where whoever is bad in the village,
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: they'd make them sit there and like the kids could
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: throw rotten fruit at them or whatever. You know what
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: I'm talking about? Yeah. Like Pilgrim Time. Right. We have
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: a version of that in social media now.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: And that's like– I think that's when comedians lampoon them
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: because it's like– That's the worst– in a way, that's
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: the worst punishment, especially for an actor.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: And even Eminem's new song has Sherry Papini in the rhyme. Oh, gosh.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: He just made a comeback and he mentions Sherry Papini.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: As a liar.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's like what we should. We should always
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: remember that like– I mean– and then also in this
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: day and age of where you know the husband is
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: always going to be found as guilty and it's like–
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: But what I want to know, and I hope we
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: find out in this, and I don't know, is like,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: what was the plan? Because 20 days is pretty long.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: And I just love that. And I joke, too, when
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: it happened. I'm like, oh, and isn't that nice that
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: she comes back on Thanksgiving because she was like, today's
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: going to be a real good meal and I'm pretty hungry. So, like,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: let's have a Thanksgiving. And I want to have Christmas
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: with my family and I want to be a hero
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: and I want to do this whole thing. But I'm like,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: but what? I still don't get what was the plan.
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: That was the plan. You just said the nail on
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: the head. It was be a hero. It was be
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: Elizabeth Smart. It was be, you know, do the true
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: crime circuit, write a book, and nobody would know. And look,
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: another thing about people like this is they're enamored with
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: their own intelligence. right? It's like they love how clever
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: they're being without understanding. It's like the old adage, right?
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Well, isn't that a narcissistic behavior, like where they think
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: they're the smartest one in the room?
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: And it's like, if you were insane, how would you
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: actually know? If you were really stupid, how do you know?
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: And they never really do, right? We see that all
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: the time. And it's people like this, that was the plan.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: She was going to come back, be a hero. Her
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: kids were going to adore her. Mommy got saved from
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: the clutches of freaking international white slavery or whatever her
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: story was. And that was it. And they don't, I
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: don't know an investigator, Larry Montgomery, who used to say
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: these people play checkers, not chess. You know, so she's
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: thinking one move ahead. She's not thinking 10 moves ahead.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: And universally, they think that cops are idiots. They think
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: investigators are idiots. And they think we are idiots, that
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: we're going to buy off on it. And, you know,
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: nobody's going to question it. And, you know, like the
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: Jesse Smollett, I mean, that whole thing was, You know,
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: and he's still unrepentant.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's still acting like it wasn't.
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: The Dave Chappelle broke that down beautifully. And that's I
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: think there has to be more of that stuff. I
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: think if there's if there's a sense of shame that
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: is attached to getting caught, I think that consequence will
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: win because the woman in Atlanta got next to nothing.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: I think she did even less time than sure. I've
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: got to look this up when I when I live
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: and figure out because she was in federal court. Federal
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: judges don't mess around. So I know she did some
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: time at least.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: But I would not be surprised if she is able
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: to stay cute and hook some other guy. I'm sure
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: she already has another boyfriend. And she will probably have
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: probably even once this dies down after this, she's probably
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: hating that this doc is out. But then, you know,
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: she'll be called, she's probably called Sharon, not even Sherry anymore.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: She'll have some new married name and she can just
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: like reinvent herself.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: And she'll have friends and she'll probably even have another.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: baby and like.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: Well, that's like Nanette on our case.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, right. That's what I was just going to say.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: She just– she changed her name.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: The gold digger who hired the– The gold digger.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: So she got prosecuted for fraud back in the day
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: but never the murder.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: And so she just moves on to the next name,
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: marries another guy. Her husband at the time had no
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: idea that she was even a suspect in that murder
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: 15 years later. No clue. Really good guy.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: So she's living the Newport high life.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: Living that whole– she was in Ladera Ranch.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: She had a church group. Like 50 of them showed
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: up for the arraignment. Like this has got to be
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: a mistake. This is a case we worked on for
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: two and a half years.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: She's the best at the bake sale. They've got this
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: totally wrong. Like I rubber stamped something that some cop
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: threw on my desk.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: You live a case like that as a prosecutor, as
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: a detective, and you know every single detail. And these
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: people came in who were all also manipulated. And that's
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: the thing.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: She just changed her name. Nobody knew.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: Nicest person in the world. Yep. So sweet. Yeah, because
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: that's what these grifter liars people are.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: She had all these– Sherry Papini, in the first episode,
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: they share that she kind of ran away from home
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: at like 16. And from like 16 to like mid-20s,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: she had several boyfriends and one– played hockey for the Ducks. Like,
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: she was finding, like, you know, not total losers, like
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: people had their shit together and she could hook these guys.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: And when she met him, this husband, she was married
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: to somebody else. And the first night they met, she's like,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: I'm married, but he's abusive and we're getting divorced. So
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: it's again, every guy was told that the previous person
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: she was with was abusive. So they get that, they
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: get to be the hero too.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: Right, right. There's a country song about that. Like something
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: like always check for the boots under the bed and
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: you'll know your future or something like that. But wait,
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: what does that mean? It's basically like the guy before
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: you is what is what your experience is going to
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: be like that. The man that she's that she's talking
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: about is exactly that is your future.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: But yeah, as a prosecutor, the thing is, when you
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: people forget when you actually have to try these things,
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: when somebody actually does it, a lot of the defenses
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: are these fanciful, outlandish stories. And as a as a DA,
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: they only need one, you know, so as a the
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: defense just needs one juror to hang it, right? And
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: all you need is, it's like the lowest common denominator.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: And when you stand up and say, this is absurd that,
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: you know, well, there's people like her. So all you
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: need is one person to remember that. And it makes
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: the good guy, it makes the job for the good
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: guys a lot tougher. And by good guys, I mean,
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: The actual victims, the forensic personnel, the detectives and the
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: other jurors.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: So.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Well, speaking of juries. OK, so Karen Reed, I've talked
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: about this a couple of times on the show. This
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: is the case of this. She's a professor, I believe,
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: at a university. She was dating a Boston cop. She's
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: in her early 40s and she she and he were drinking.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: They went to an after party. She dropped him off
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: at the after party. Was pretty buzzed when she came home,
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: passed out, woke up. He wasn't there. She went back
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: to the house and she dropped him off. And now
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: this is where I messed up some of it. Did
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: she find his body or he was already taken to
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: the hospital because the owners of the house found his
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: body outside at the end of the driveway? She found
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: his body and called 911.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she got two friends and went back and she
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: made a bunch of really sort of incriminating statements along
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: the way. She got two friends to go with her.
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: I think there were two cars, but she made, she's like,
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: I know I hit him. I know I hit him.
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: Things like that. And went back. And as they're pulling up,
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: the other two women couldn't see him. And she's like,
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: because it's in the snow.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: Right. I know Alan Jackson pretty well. He, who's that?
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: Alan Jackson's that her defense lawyer.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: Alan Jackson is the real deal. He was a former
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: DA in LA and a very, very good trial lawyer.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: And so Me watching this, I think the prosecution's a
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: little bit outgunned.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it's definitely going to be a movie,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: if not a doc. I'm sure there's already a documentary
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: team that are following it. If she was smart, if
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: she and her dad probably already said yes to letting
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: them film her waking up every day, kind of like
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: the staircase one. It's a lot of accusations as far
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: as the defense that these cops were involved in protecting
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: each other so they're the theories are the theories are
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: that a she was drunk backed up inadvertently hit him
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: and then he died in the snow and nobody ever
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: saw him at the party the other one is she
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: dropped him off he went to the party and she
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: was buzzed came home at the party some shit went
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: down with these other guys one of whom she flirted
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: with and kissed and they hit him or they got
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: in a fight and killed him there and then threw
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: him out in the snow or got in a fight.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: He went and left and had a head injury and
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: fell and died in the snow and they didn't know
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: that they had contributed to his death. And then the
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: cover up and everything and phones have been thrown away.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: And so yesterday they had the, or the latest ones
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: are that the defense is putting on their case. And
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: they had somebody drive by, someone who said, I drove
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: by the house numerous times and I didn't see anyone.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: Which I don't think that's that great because it's nighttime
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: and it's snow.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: And it's snowing heavily.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: And not seeing somebody under those circumstances, especially you're not
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: looking for a body that's down. And, yeah, you know,
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: they charge her initially. It's a murder case, right? Right.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: There's two ways you can get to a murder. You can,
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: you know, obviously murder, murder, like intentionally killing somebody, which
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: is what the defense is arguing. The other way is
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: if you are so impaired or you are, it's called
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: implied malice. Essentially, it's you are, you recklessly disregard the
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: safety of other people. And if you do so with
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: a depraved and malignant heart, it's the old language we
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: used to have in California that's now been changed. But
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: in other words, if you act so bad that you
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: disregard The safety and well-being of other people, you can
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: be charged with implied malice. You don't actually have an
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: intent to kill, but you act so badly that we
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: imply the malice. You imply the intent. Got it. So
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: it's like fourth-time DUIs or like that Grossman woman that
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: happened up in your neighborhood. Yes, we talked about that one.
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: The woman who's racing with her boyfriend or whatever she
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: was doing.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to remind people, she was a socialite. She is
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: married to a very prominent plastic surgery but also has
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: the Grossman Burn Center. And they had an open marriage
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: at the time and she was racing her boyfriend, you know,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: was part of the story, to go to a place
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: that she was renting to have sex probably. And there
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: was a mother and her four kids walking and her
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: two boys were hit by her.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Who was speeding. And there was all proof that there
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: was speeding and everything. And so her whole thing, I
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: think her defense was they went and tried to say
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: that they– whatever, the turn, it's the city's fault. I
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: don't know what that was going. Do you remember that?
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was, that's your classic implied malice murder. That
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: was a horrific case. And she, despite, I'm not a
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: fan of George Gascon, it's the DA of LA at all.
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: And the woman who was in charge of that case
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: was named Diana Turan. She just got charged with a
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: bunch of felonies by the California attorney general's office.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: The DA did?
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: The DA's right-hand woman in Los Angeles County. George Gascon's
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: a disaster.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: We won't get into that. But But the prosecutors who
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: did that case were outstanding and they achieved a murder
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: conviction on that. Same theory here.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: And she got, I think, 20, like 19 years. She
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: got 19 years. To life.
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: And then I guess, so is that done now or can.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: She still appeal? No, there's a motion for new trial pending.
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: Hopefully that goes nowhere. George Gascon is in everything he
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: can to screw up that case. And those, in my view,
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: my opinion, those little boys deserve justice as does their family.
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: And that woman is. If you read any of her stuff,
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: she's very controversial, the defendant on that, just because she's
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: so awful. You know, a lot of people think that
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: she was.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Grossman.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Grossman, the defendant. So, yeah, I don't know her,
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: you know, but.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: I know. And, you know, one thing, obviously, you know
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: about working with the victims as a prosecutor, but like
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: to just then, you know, you have a horrible death.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: You lose someone special in your life. But then with each... trial,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: you have to appear, you have to live through it,
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: then you get the conviction, then there's an appeal, then
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: there's this, then they're there, and then you have to
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: go and make sure that they don't get out. And
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: it's like you're living through that trauma every time versus
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: just someone who died in the hospital or whatever.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: California's taken a big left turn away from victims, unfortunately.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: And Gascon is a perfect example of that. So the
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: same theory here with Karen Reid, they As an implied malice,
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: if he got out drunk and she backed up and
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: hit him accidentally and knocked him into the snow, that
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: probably should have been the entire focus of the prosecution
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: from the word go. What I don't like about the defense,
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: and it's probably going to be very effective, but it's
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: just hard to watch. And Allen, I've had dinner with Allen.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: I really like Allen. Her defense lawyer. I mean, and
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: he is an excellent trial lawyer. And he's- He's, you know,
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: people think of L.A. and you think Marshall Clarke, Christopher Darden,
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: which are not excellent trialers. And no shade on either
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: one of them. And I know Chris Darden. is a
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: nice guy. We get along fine. But Alan's the real deal.
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: So you get a really powerful orator like Alan Jackson
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: with these theories. My problem with Karen Reid is that
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: she didn't just, it's not just about, hey, I didn't
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: act recklessly because I didn't know that I hit him
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: and like running without defense. It's blaming people in the
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: house for the death of this guy where, you know,
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: because now it's not just about her. She is. And
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: there's some guy's name, Turtle, Turtle Boy.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: There's some local some local radio host who's got a
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: podcast who is off the rails completely. And he's and
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: he's he's got people showing up at the homes of
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: the people that were in the house, like of.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: The cops and stuff.
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: Of the of the of the people that that lost
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: their friend who are, you know, from, you know, the
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: prosecution's point of view, these are totally innocent people. They're
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: just witnesses that were That thought their friends were coming
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: over after a night of drinking and he didn't show
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: up and they go out and there's this– they learn
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: that he's died in the snow. And then he's got
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: all these followers showing up at their house like picking them,
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: saying that they're involved in this conspiracy. Like it's kind
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: of gotten a little bit out of hand.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: I mean the thing about it as far as like–
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: because I was thinking like is it going to be
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: a documentary? Is it going to be a movie? The
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: only way it could be a movie is if somebody
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: comes forward and we really find out what happens. If
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: even if she gets off because they're just, you know,
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: the classic, if you're not 100 percent sure you can't
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: convict her and it just goes and we never really know,
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: which I kind of feel like that's what's going to happen.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: Then then that doesn't really make for a good movie.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: It's like it's if it's going to be a movie
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: about what happened, then we have to find out what
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: someone has to finally like confess or say. you know,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: so-and-so did get into it and he punched him out
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: and we were like, get the fuck out of the house.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: And then he stumbled and whatever, but there's no ring
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: camera to show that.
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: And there's no witness that is ever going to come
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: out and actually say that.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: No way, not in Boston.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: And not only that, but it's a pretty, and look,
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: I think the way this is going, I think it's
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: going to work. I think the defense is going to
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: work if I have to call it. There's jurors there,
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: I guarantee they're looking at this going, It was a
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: heavy night of drinking because it was.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: She was three sheets to the wind because she was.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: She had something in her mind because she kept telling
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: her friends, I know I hit him. I know I
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: hit him before his body was discovered.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: Which is really bad because it's like, you know, when
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: you do drink a lot and the next day, it's
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: like you sort of have like flashes like a movie.
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: And you're like, did I fucking say that?
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: And that's why you have like alcohol anxiety the next
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: day because So it's like she might have been like, oh, no,
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: I kind of remember like I shouldn't have been driving or,
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: you know, when that happens and you're like, wake up
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: the next day and you're like, I probably shouldn't have
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: driven last night. So but they said they had clocked
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: evidence that at least seven drinks had been consumed by her.
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: It's on video. It's on video. I think it's called
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: The Falls. The place is called The Falls. They went
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: to two different bars, I think. But there's her drinking
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: patterns established both with the receipts. And literally they have
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: internal cameras and you can count the drinks. So she
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: was hammered. I don't even think she– so if– the
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: argument arguably should be this is a horrible accident. She
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: didn't mean to kill him. What does that mean? Is
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: this a misdemeanor manslaughter? I mean that's kind of one
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: direction the defense could go. Alan has gone all in
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: on this conspiracy theory that– which– If he's right, then
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: good for him. That's the job of a defense lawyer, right? Yeah.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: I mean I think that is the only way you
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: can go because if you just went like she was
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: wasted but didn't mean it, then she's still going to
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: be convicted and do a decent amount of time.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: So this is the only.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: Way you could go.
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: Not necessarily because if it's– there's– manslaughter breaks down into–
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: there's the implied malice murder, which means you've got to
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: be consciously disregarding the safety, which is tough when somebody
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: is that drunk under these circumstances.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: But if it's just an accident and she loved the guy,
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: then you get juror sympathy and then you're talking about
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: a misdemeanor manslaughter, which typically, at least in California, results
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: in no time. So it's, you know, there's a lot
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: to work with there from the defense perspective.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: But then the defense could say the reason it didn't
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: go this way is because the cops and the prosecutor
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: and everybody knew what really happened. So they were like,
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: we have to paint this narrative.
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: And I'll tell you what, Alan, I mean, I've talked
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: to me. He is incredibly persuasive and passionate as he
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: goes through this. And look, I don't know. It's not
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: my case. Yeah.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: Well, speaking of drunk driving, over the weekend, Justin Timberlake
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: got arrested.
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: And The cop didn't know who he was either.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: Amazing. Which is awesome. Yeah, amazing. Best part of it
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: was so he supposedly had a very stiff martinis or
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: something and was driving home in the Hamptons and the
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: cop pulled him over and didn't know. And he's like,
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: this is going to ruin the tour. And the guy's like,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: what tour? And he didn't know who he was, which
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: is so funny. funny and great. They found, there's a
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: photo of the guy, he's 22, and I'm like, can't
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: wait to see him on The Bachelor next season. Like,
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: you just know. Because everyone's like, I love him. That's
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: what cops are supposed to do. But of course, he
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: just saw another guy in his 40s that looked wealthy
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: and white who was trying to get out of a
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: DUI and he's doing his job. And so, like, good
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: for him.
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: And then other people have conspiracy theories. Were the ticket
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: sales doing that well, much like J-Lo?
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: No.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Did he want to be arrested? No, I don't. I
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: don't think anybody wants to be arrested for a DUI.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: Nobody wants to be arrested. Nobody wants to not do
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: the tour.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: Thank God he was arrested because if he pulled a
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Rebecca Grossman or something like that, then he really would
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: be done. This is... He can twist this around, but
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: there was a video of him recently performing and his
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: eyes were like this and everybody was like, he's on cocaine. Like,
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: what is this? He didn't... And then people wrote, I
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: was at that show and he wasn't finishing the songs
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: and he was out of it.
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: So.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: You know, if he has a problem, maybe this is–
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: thank God this happened and he, you know, gets on
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: the wagon and like gives up alcohol.
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: My dad got sober after a DUI. That actually happens,
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: you know, like having some consequences to that sort of thing.
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: Some people kind of figure it out.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: So hopefully– And then people expect you to. Like there's,
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: you know, a real housewife of OC that got a
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: DUI and the new season hasn't started. But they sure
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: show her in the trailer going, oh, I'll have– A
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: double vodka with a lemon twist and everyone looking like
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: she shouldn't. So, you know, do you totally give up alcohol?
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: You know, you should. But not everybody does. And you
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to. You just can never drive drunk again.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: And the thing is, is that the days of this
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: is going to ruin the tour. Those days are long.
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: Those days are long.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: No one cares about the.
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: No. And not only that. Like, I know judges and
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: DAs get DUIs. And not all the time, but when
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: it happens, they get a DUI.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Like, nobody.
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: Nobody's driving you home under those.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: Like it's 1955 and like– Exactly.
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: Those days are long and long since in the review.
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: Well, that's good.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: OK. The latest on the horrible Idaho murders. There is
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: a book coming out, which is– they said– this is
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: from New York Post. A bone-chilling new book claims to
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: reveal that the true target of the infamous University of
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: Idaho murders were the four young kids who were murdered
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: in their home. How do you pronounce his name again?
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: Koberger.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Koberger. Um, they have a suspect. He is arrested.
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: He's going on trial. Is there really anything new in
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: this book from someone that follows it? Now, if you
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: didn't follow it and you want to know all the details,
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: I'm sure they just collected all the details. But I
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: always remember that was the theory because he comes in
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: the house and the two girls that lived on the
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: first floor, um, he didn't go in there. And, but
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: they saw one, saw him go up there. So he
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: went to the main Madison room who they think was
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: a main and, And normally she would be there by herself,
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: but it was a drinking night and the girlfriend just
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: crashed in her bed, her friend. So then he killed
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: both of them. And then we think the boyfriend and
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: the girlfriend who were sharing a room heard the commotion,
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: got up, and tried to stop it. Like, what the
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: hell is going on? And then they were killed too.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: And then he left and then the two were saved
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: at the bottom floor.
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: Right. Yeah. So this is– first of all, that's an
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: awesome photo. Look at how creepy he looks.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Ugh.
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: And of course, he's presumed innocent. I have to say
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: that as a lawyer. But this is one of the
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: things that's interesting about this is this is kind of
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: what homicide prosecutors do all the time, because the thing
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: about murder cases, which is different than any other kind
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: of crime, is that your your best witness is always dead.
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: So it's about sort of filling in filling in the gaps.
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: And they have a whole forensic science known as blood
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: spatter without the L spatter, where They try to reconstruct
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: what happened in crime scenes based on the blood pattern,
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: the way the victims bleed out. Sometimes there's blood on
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: the ceiling, which is called cast off. And they try
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: to reconstruct it. The theory in this is that he
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: was targeting one of them, which makes it does make
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: a lot of sense. And because she was actually in
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: bed with her friend, not in bed in bed, but
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: they just sleep over. Yeah, right. Which he might not
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: have anticipated. Now, he'd been to that place. He'd been
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: to that. About a dozen times based on surveillance video.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: The house that they lived at. Yeah.
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: So he was very intent on somebody. And serial killers
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: is another chapter that I do in the book. And
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: it's fascinating. You know, there's this myth out there that
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: they are– it's a product of modern America. And we
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: think of– because there's so many famous ones here. But
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: serial killers have been around for thousands of years. Some
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: of the most interesting cases we know about Jack the Ripper.
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: of course. There are people in continental Europe at the
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: same time, late 1800s, when they first started trying to
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: study this. And there's this fascinating book written by a
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: German psychiatrist, kind of a contemporary of Freud, trying to
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: figure out what makes serial killers tick. And He technically
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: doesn't meet the– I mean assuming if he did it allegedly.
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: He doesn't meet the FBI definition because this was– this
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: would have been considered a spree. But there's almost always
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: for the true blue serial killers, there's almost always a
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: sexual or an obsessive component and they will– he.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: And because he was studying criminology and everything, then he
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: was one of those that I was like, I'm going
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: to see if I can do it. Like I do
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: think that's really creepy when I've seen stuff like that.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: Like all of a sudden, he really hadn't done anything.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: He was a creep, but he hadn't done anything. And
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: he was just like, I want to see if I
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: can do it and get away with it.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: He was getting his PhD at Washington State.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: And I want to see if I– and so his
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: plan might have been– kill her, get out silently. Someone
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: would find her the next day. And no one would
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: ever know who did it because they never dated. There
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: wasn't any connection to him. But being that the friend
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: was also in the room, that threw it off. That
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: added to loud commotion because he had to kill two people.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: And then he ended up killing four. And so it
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: was like the accidental serial killer. Like it wasn't his
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: whole thing. And that's interesting because like you said, he
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: didn't fit the profile. What is the profile of a
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: serial killer? Of a true serial killer.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: So the FBI definition is somebody who kills two or
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: more victims and they might have added three, three or
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: more victims at different events. But the typical– the longstanding
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: definition is two or more victims at different events. But
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: the problem with that is that that includes gangsters who
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: are a good aim, you know, like active gang members or, uh,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: nurses who are, who do mercy killings, you know, of
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: like geriatric patients and things like that.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: Not those though. If we're just focusing on the predatory kind.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: There's a, um, it's, and I'm going to butcher it
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: because it's, it's, uh, I think it's all German, but
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: it's this book written by this guy, uh, this this
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: psychiatrist uh dr von ebbing and it's uh psychopath sexualis
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: it's essentially he tries to figure out where serial killers
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: are on a spectrum of sexual paraphilias so he tries
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: to fit them in and he called them sadistic lust
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: murders which is really interesting because the true blue guys
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: like my rodney alcala case or my andrew urdialis case
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: or ted bundy um The Night Stalker.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: Who were those two cases that you just mentioned?
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: So Rodney Alcala was the dating game killer. That was
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: one of mine. He appeared on the dating game in
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: the late 70s when he was at the height of
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: his murder.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, and they never found him?
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: No, we eventually found him.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: But all those years later, that's why you were.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: No, he got convicted in 79. And then it just
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: kept getting reversed by the California Courts of Appeal, basically.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: And so I got it. We had one victim in 1979,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: Robin Samso. And then It went up to the California
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court, Roseburg reversed it once, retried in the 80s,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: went convicted again, sentenced to death again, went back up,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: and then it got gutted by the Ninth Circuit Court
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: of Appeals, where they took out, they essentially, it's called
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: law of the case, where they find evidence that shouldn't
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: have been admitted. So you can't use it again. So
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: it winds up on my desk, and I've got a
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: really good composite and almost nothing else. And then we
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: start getting DNA hits, which was awesome in LA County.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: And we wound up prosecuting him for five.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, so he was never let out and committed more crime,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: but you figured out that he had killed a bunch
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: more people than the one that he was originally convicted for.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: He wasn't let out after the first murder he got
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: caught for, but he was let out after kidnapping, raping,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: and almost killing an eight-year-old named Tally Shapiro in 1968.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: So he got caught. He got out the back, went
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: to New York. They found him working in an all-girls
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: summer camp in Vermont And changed his name. He was
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: a graduate of UCLA Film School. And the guy had
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: a genius level IQ, went to Cantwell.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: And had also been on The Dating Game.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: Wow. So he goes to prison, gets out after 34 months.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: And this was a brutal kidnapping. And she was in
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: a coma for 32 days.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: And he gets out after 34 months.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: 34 months. Absolute example of prosecutorial incompetence. Every time I
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: read about it or I get. I get more upset.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: But they let him out. He got returned. They violated
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: his parole a bunch of times for essentially like grooming kids.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: And then he– the lead detective, his estimate, who's now
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: a Superior Court judge and a hero, estimates he killed
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: over 100 people. And it was all after he'd been
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: released by the CDC, by the California Department of Corrections.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: And that's real. And that's– yeah. Yeah.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: It's scary.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: But anyway, but- Getting back to- Yeah, sorry. We digress.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: These guys are fascinating. Serial killers are fascinating because I
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: always thought they were like Buffalo Bill. When I got
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: into Homicide, we've all seen Silence of the Lambs, this outcast.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: And as the story goes, he's killing women to steal
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: their skin because he wants to wear it. And then
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: we've got Hannibal Lecter also in that movie who was
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: killing people to eat them, which are both based on
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: real characters yeah but the the true blue guys there's
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: a sexual component and i have to think you know
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: and again i don't know i i did some commentary
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: for abc on this but yeah you know uh there
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: has to be i mean you look at how pretty
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: all those all those young women were yeah and it's
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: like that old the old saying right mike tyson had
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: a quote everybody has a plan until they get punched
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: in the face like best laid plans never survive first
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: contact with the enemy i i speculating wildly based on
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: nothing but my own experience prosecuting these. I bet he
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: went in to get one of them. I'm sure there
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: had to be a sexual component. And then he was
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: surprised by another person in bed. That wound up being
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: too loud. The boyfriend, Ethan, that's a strapping young kid.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: He was an athlete. He was 6'4. He came down.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: And it's all speculation. Right. And we'll see what comes
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: out of trial.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like the Ron Goldman. Yeah, that's right.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: Ron Goldman was... came upon what was happening with Nicole
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: and did an instinctual good guy thing. And it was,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: you know, he was not on the target list.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: And neither were those other two kids. I feel sorry
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: for the other roommate downstairs.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: Both of the girls that survived. I mean, how are
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: you supposed to go back? Or like, what if just,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: you know, I was just thinking like, what if somebody's like, Listen,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: introduce this group today and then realize is like, oh,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: my God, you know how triggering it must be. And
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: how are they supposed to go back to school? How
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: are they supposed to, you know, because there's a lot
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: of speculation. Why didn't they do this? Why didn't they call? And,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: you know. Yeah. And who knows? Yeah.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: And they were it was a night of drinking. This
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: is not what they expect. Those girls are innocent.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: Of course. Yeah.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: But this the prosecution seems to have it. This is
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: a very good case.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: Those sell that cell phone stuff. Having presented those on
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: murder cases before. That is incredibly powerful evidence. And then
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: his little Hyundai Elantra.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: Is seen on video. And he. Have you seen the
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: clip of when he got pulled over as he's driving
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: across country with his dad?
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: He's got looks at look in his eyes that then
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: he was also putting trash in his neighbor's trash can.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: Like he's trying to avoid DNA, which is exactly what
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 3: they're looking for, which is something that a PhD student
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: in criminology would know they were doing. But what I
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: love about it is he's studying criminology. He's studying these
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: cases formally. And if he really did do it, allegedly, allegedly,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: he's too stupid to turn off his phone before he
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: left his house. So it's like I read the search
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: warrant affidavit on this. And he's driving towards the location,
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: pinging off the exact same transponders. That you would if
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: you're going to the murder scene and then he turns
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: off his phone at like 1.30, 2 o'clock in the morning.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: And the timing fits up perfectly. So he is– my
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: prediction on this, he's going to be convicted. He's going
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: to be sentenced to death. And Idaho, the difference between
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: there and California is they have– I think they have
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: seven guys on death row. That's a real sentence potentially
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: in Idaho.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: So it will be interesting to see what happens.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: Well, we're going to end up– you sent me this photo.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: This is– Are these sharks that I see?
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, those are. So I just went to the that's
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: a place called Wolf Island in the Galapagos. And I
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 3: just did a little more dive trip.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: And you and now you're not scared that any of
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: those sharks want to eat you.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: So the funny thing about that. So those are hammerheads.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: And there were they they accumulate before they migrate. And
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: they are there were some Galapagos sharks that I don't
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: have pictures there. Those ones were a little more scary.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: The hammerheads are actually really shy. And I love this
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: shot because it's the first time they actually got close
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: enough for me to get a decent photo because they're
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: so afraid of people.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: There's so many different fishes in this photo and you
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: see the turtle. And I went to the Galapagos Islands
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: and I couldn't believe like the snorkel situation that I saw.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: It's amazing.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: And it's, yeah.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: It's a trip everybody should try to do.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: If you like critters or animals or nature, it is.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: Crazy.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: So getting back to your book, tell everybody where they
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: can follow you and find you and order it.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: Uh, so it is available now. Uh, you can follow
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: me on Matt Murphy law on Instagram. Um, it is
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: available now on Amazon, uh, Disney books and also Barnes
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: and Noble. And there, there's two ways you probably know this.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: There's two ways you can do a second book. And, um,
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: one is they, the, the publisher waits to see how,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: how it does. And, The other is you can sign
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: up to do one if they're willing to do it
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 3: based on pre-sales. And I guess I'm announcing this for
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: the first time. I'm in negotiations right now. They're probably
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: going to get mad at me for saying this.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: So let's get another book out of him. Get your pre-sale.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: You guys know you're going to love this book because
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: you know him. You are readers. And this has personal juice,
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: murder juice, and so much more. So good.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, please. I hope everybody likes it. If you hate it,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: it's okay to lie to me.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: Wait, did my quote make it or was it too late?
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: No, no, no. Your quote is a part of the
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: online advertising campaign that they're about to start.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: Good, good. Okay. Well, I'm so happy that you did it.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: And thank you for always coming back on Juicy Scoop.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: And this was really a great episode. So thank you.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: I love being here. So hopefully you'll help me back.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: Thank you.