Latest / Adventure Sports Podcast / Ep. 1204: First Descent Kayaking in Bhutan Revisited with Ben Morton

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Ep. 1204: First Descent Kayaking in Bhutan Revisited with Ben Morton · Adventure Sports Podcast

0:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the Adventure Sports podcast.
0:10
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk with adventures from around the globe to give you the inspiration you need to get started in the outdoors or keep moving if you're already there.
0:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Adventure Sports podcast.
0:22
[SPEAKER_01]: This is Caleb.
0:23
[SPEAKER_01]: As spring is in full swing, we're quickly approaching the peak of kayaking season.
0:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really didn't mean for that to rhyme as much as it did, but here we are.
0:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And for those of you who are in the Western United States, we'll see how good the kayaking season is this year because of the lack of snow from winter.
0:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But wherever you're listening from hopefully today's episode we'll get you excited to get out on the river again and to enjoy the water and enjoy nature.
0:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And even if kayaking isn't your thing, even if paddling isn't your thing, I hope that you still find this episode fun and entertaining.
1:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Today's revisited episode is Mason interviewing Bin Morton and the first descent kayaking in the son-am section of the Curry Chew River in the remote wilderness of Eastern Bhutan.
1:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Please forgive my pronunciation there.
1:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Ben grew up around paddling in local rivers and over the years.
1:27
[SPEAKER_01]: He's had the opportunity to work alongside numerous paddle sports instructors and coaches at various paddling schools outfitters and colleges throughout the US and abroad.
1:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope you enjoy the episode.
1:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's Mason.
1:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, Mason, I grew up in...
1:46
[SPEAKER_03]: rural Virginia, so a really small county orange Virginia, which is kind of tucked right up against the Blue Ridge Mountains.
1:54
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's really beautiful.
1:56
[SPEAKER_03]: I really wasn't into
1:58
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, adventure sports, but more traditional sport.
2:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And so while like my buddies and I would goof off on the river during the summertime, like two big and swimming, most of my time was spent, you know, trying out traditional sports and eventually I kind of gravitated towards soccer.
2:18
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I ended up like really getting into that heavily and, and yeah, I think it wasn't until I was a
2:27
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, my mom started to get into doing some recreational kayaking and because they, because my mom had a couple of around my brother and I started to dabble, but it wasn't something that particularly interested me at the time.
2:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Now interesting so so what made your mom get into it.
2:45
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you know, really interesting, my mom is an amazing person, but she was, I think, sometime, you know, I don't know if it was a midlife crisis, what initiated it, but she started going with a friend over to the New River Gorge and West Virginia and doing a lot of rafting and camping out.
3:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And at the time, she was like, well,
3:06
[SPEAKER_03]: white water kayaking is not my deal, but just some general recreational kayaking or in a more mellow environment, it's totally something that she was interested in.
3:16
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that kind of seeing other people kayaking was what started it off, and then once she got into it, she really got bit by the bug.
3:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh man, so she was a bit, and you were a teenager, but it took you a while to get into it.
3:31
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, something I'm sure you never thought would become such a big part of what you do.
3:37
[SPEAKER_02]: When did you start to get bit by the bug?
3:41
[SPEAKER_03]: It was really interesting.
3:42
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't know how interesting, interesting for me that I kind of pursued soccer as heavily as I could for a long time.
3:50
[SPEAKER_03]: And when it came to go into college, I just,
3:55
[SPEAKER_03]: I wasn't quite at the level that I wanted to be to play, wanted to go.
3:59
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I just kind of had this kind of moment where I stepped back and was like, well, I think I'm going to walk away from soccer at least being competitive.
4:09
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I was just lost.
4:10
[SPEAKER_03]: And I had no sense of what I wanted to study or anything of the short.
4:14
[SPEAKER_03]: But here comes Mom again saying, hey, I meet these young folks over in West Virginia
4:25
[SPEAKER_03]: major in college.
4:26
[SPEAKER_03]: And I couldn't wrap my mind around it, but I just, you know, I didn't know idea, but I was like, oh, that sounds great.
4:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to do it.
4:32
[SPEAKER_03]: But then kind of came into, like, trying to unpack and figure out what exactly is, you know, outdoor education and adventure sports.
4:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, I knew at that moment, I was, I was enjoying being outside
4:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And at some point in that moment or in that time frame, my mom was like, you know, Ben, you're taking these kayaks out on rivers that probably aren't suitable for the kayaks.
5:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, maybe you should consider getting a white water kayak and taking a class.
5:08
[SPEAKER_03]: And, and so that sent me down to Fredrick'sburg, Virginia, where I took a kind of like a evening class from a guy that was going to college there at Mary Washington.
5:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And as soon as I got on the water with that guy, he was he was charismatic.
5:24
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a very skilled kayaker.
5:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I was immediately told myself, I want to do what that guy's doing.
5:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And so from that moment moving forward, I just kind of stayed heavily into kayaking and then branched off into other adventure sports as well.
5:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
5:39
[SPEAKER_02]: That's awesome.
5:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So did you end up studying that field like outdoor recreation and just kind of advancing in that through college?
5:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
5:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Like in that time frame, I had taken a gap year after I finished high school and so that was where I just started going off on all these kind of micro adventures with a buddy of mine and we were just, you know, unconsciously and confident like we had no idea what we what we knew and what we didn't know and so in that time we were going out kayaking we're going out on hiking trips and then my mom and I were going to a climbing gym in Charlottesville, Virginia like twice a week and so I was I was
6:19
[SPEAKER_03]: getting a sense of a variety of outdoor activities and I was getting just really excited.
6:25
[SPEAKER_03]: And so in that gap year, I also saved up my money and was able to participate in a North Carolina outward bound outdoor leader course.
6:35
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's really kind of what's sealed a deal that helped give me a small foundation of formal outdoor education experience.
6:44
[SPEAKER_03]: I just, after I left that, I was like, this is totally what I want to do.
6:48
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm absolutely sure of it.
6:49
[SPEAKER_03]: So I ended up going to Garrett College in Western Maryland and studying adventure sports and leadership and just accumulating a lot of great experiences and just getting inundated with all sorts of ideas and excitement for trips and things that I could do in the future.
7:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Man, that's really cool because, you know, we talk to a lot of people on this show that, you know, they're trying to make a career out of what they love to do.
7:17
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really challenging.
7:18
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if there's not a market for it or there's no, you know, not necessarily knowing how to do that, whether it's through guiding or what.
7:25
[SPEAKER_02]: In the world of kayaking and through kind of the knowledge and what you were gaining, how are you seeing that path like unfold?
7:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it through guiding or was it through something else within kayaking?
7:39
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you see and what were you being taught to look for?
7:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think, you know, I've been kind of told the narrative that so many people are told that, you know, you can go out and
7:52
[SPEAKER_03]: work in the field for a while, but at some point, you know, you're going to need to step into a more administrative role.
7:59
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, there's very few jobs to make a career in the outdoor field.
8:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And I guess I just kind of accepting of it, but I was just like, well, I'm going to enjoy my time when I'm out in the field and working.
8:10
[SPEAKER_03]: But what I just kind of gathered through the years is like, it's a puzzle.
8:16
[SPEAKER_03]: It's an absolute puzzle to piece together your ideal job.
8:21
[SPEAKER_03]: or your ideal career, but every year it got easier, where I feel like at the beginning, I was like paying employers to get the opportunity to work for with them.
8:35
[SPEAKER_03]: And then after I got my foot in the door,
8:38
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, being able to demonstrate a work ethic, a skill set, and attitude, what have you, then all of a sudden, you know, more opportunities came up where I was being paid rather than paying to get the opportunity to work.
8:50
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I tried to check my ego whenever an opportunity came up and just say, hey, if this, if this feels right, you know, go for it regardless of whether or not you're going to get paid, you know, and I just figured that accumulating that
9:07
[SPEAKER_03]: with lead to good things.
9:09
[SPEAKER_02]: So how was that feeling served you?
9:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Looking back, however many years now?
9:15
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I guess, you know, I've been been out there doing it, piecing it together for about 15 or so years.
9:23
[SPEAKER_03]: And I,
9:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I tell you, it feels good.
9:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I work in the outdoors.
9:29
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not, I'm not rolling in the cash.
9:31
[SPEAKER_03]: There's, I always have concerns about whether or not work is going to fill in the gaps each year.
9:38
[SPEAKER_03]: But every year, it seems to get easier in terms of scheduling and booking courses and workshops.
9:43
[SPEAKER_03]: I think for a long time, it was very sustainable for me, but because I was willing to travel, and I was willing to travel anywhere.
9:52
[SPEAKER_03]: hop on a plane or I would drive and I had a very nomadic lifestyle just for work for quite some time.
9:58
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, now I'm married.
10:01
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, have a daughter and we're based here in Vermont.
10:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm a less apt trap, but a good friend told me once, he's like, you know, you just have to keep your foot on the gas pedal because at some point in time, a lot of the people, a lot of your peers or colleagues are going to step away because it gets so challenging.
10:19
[SPEAKER_03]: But if you're willing to hang in, like, next thing you know, you're going to be the name,
10:23
[SPEAKER_03]: And it feels like that has run, run true in a number of ways and that like I just get I get a phone call and someone runs into my name on a website or on a on a blog and that starts a conversation about a potential work opportunity and so It's certainly nothing that I'm doing in terms of marketing I'm I'm off let.
10:43
[SPEAKER_03]: marketing and social media, but yeah, just you just consistent the longevity is what you can do.
10:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Man, I can't tell you the podcast in world so similar like we I'm seeing competing shows or shows that are similar, maybe not competitors necessarily, but
11:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm seeing that happen as well, like shows dropping off or quitting, you know, for whatever reason for good reasons, you know, they've got to move on for whatever reason alive, and it's like, all right, if we can just keep going and keep making this thing happen eventually, we're kind of the only show in town, some people are people are going to listen.
11:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
11:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So you mentioned that you, you know, for a while there, a long time, you're willing to just go anywhere and do anything.
11:26
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, where were some of the places that kayaking took you?
11:31
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, Mason, I, you know, I started off there in Virginia and then in college as well, I was, you know, kind of in that mid-Atlantic region.
11:41
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, even in my backyard of, you know, West Virginia and some of the areas of Virginia and Maryland,
11:50
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, really amazing experiences, but I also, I mean, I've just been super fortunate.
11:55
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been able to, for the, for quite a while, I was working in the Rocky Mountain West and then the Pacific Northwest, uh, specifically, you know, in Northern California, on the Sam and River in California and the Southern Oregon and the Rogue River, just, you know,
12:15
[SPEAKER_03]: the little work of the salmon and Idaho, there's just some absolutely amazing places to spend time and to be able to work.
12:23
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I've been able to work in quite a few states throughout the U.S. And so there's not too many regions in the U.S. that I haven't spent time in, fortunately.
12:37
[SPEAKER_03]: But you know, I've also been really fortunate to travel overseas and to do some teach some courses
12:45
[SPEAKER_03]: I've led trips down Costa Rica for about seven years now and I've also been fortunate enough to go over to Asia and to spend some time in Australia and New Zealand and so it's yeah it's been a very rewarding and rich experience thus far and just excited to keep it going.
13:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And what an adventure it was, was there any place that you got to go to that really, really captured you, really captured your, your, your, your hard or, or a place that's just, it's own level in your eyes.
13:20
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I will say that every time I go to New Zealand, I, I say like this, this will be, this could be a place that I could live so easily.
13:28
[SPEAKER_03]: And I've got amazing friends there, and but just generally that the people that I've met there just.
13:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so I thought sweet and uh, and I just love the landscape.
13:40
[SPEAKER_03]: I just, uh, it, it, it speaks to me for sure.
13:43
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been working in Costa Rica alone enough now that the folks that I work with there feel like family.
13:48
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm excited to go down there and it, and it is, it feels like another level when I go down there because of this genuine excitement to work with the folks I work with down there.
13:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and leading trips just doesn't feel like work.
14:02
[SPEAKER_02]: It just feels like play with with the folks, you know, and just so folks know, these are, uh, you're you're going down to these places and you're guiding you're guiding mostly white water or rafting trips and kayaking, like guided trips, is that correct?
14:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'd say the high majority of what I'm doing is white water kayaking, so in white water kayaking instruction or leading a trip.
14:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Certainly in New Zealand my time there has been a lot of it has just been personal.
14:34
[SPEAKER_03]: personal kayaking with friends, but I had the opportunity to stay at the New Zealand kayakschool for an extended period of time and just shadow and observe and assist in a not a formal working capacity, but just as an opportunity for professional development, and that was a hugely rich experience.
14:57
[SPEAKER_02]: If you don't mind, I'd love to hear a story about, you know, maybe traveling, going to with a group to some of these places and where something went, something was scary for you as a guide or as the leader, maybe not something when they went wrong or tragic, but just a time where maybe it just tested your skills.
15:17
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I worked for, for noils for quite a while out in a Utah working on the green river going through desolation canyon and there was a one particular year a colleague of mine.
15:30
[SPEAKER_03]: We kind of had this saying that that desolation canyon was trying to kill me and, uh,
15:36
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was, it was due to, um, you know, on two back to back trips, we were, um, one morning, I, you know, I wake up super early in the morning and I went down to our big group kitchen and I start making coffee with my headland and, uh, and then while the coffee is being made, I go grab the kayak and drag it down to the river's edge and then I go visit the grover and then
16:05
[SPEAKER_03]: It the sun is starting to come up and we start having some students move around and we, you know, I kind of from the kitchen, I see some students hanging around a particular part of the beach and I go down and just see what's up and they're like, hey, what kind of prints are these and they're pretty big size cat print and
16:22
[SPEAKER_03]: we followed them and they were following my footsteps from the time that I was in the kitchen in the morning to the time that I went to the kayak down to the river's edge.
16:30
[SPEAKER_03]: The time I went to the river, this cat had just been walking behind me at some distance I had imagined.
16:37
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, just to have the idea that a big cat was talking me in the early morning hours in Utah was
16:46
[SPEAKER_03]: was a little startling.
16:47
[SPEAKER_03]: And in the following trip, a colleague and I were we're sleeping out under the stars rather than in our under our little tarq.
16:56
[SPEAKER_03]: And I woke up to the feeling of like a a dog sniffing my head.
17:01
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just kind of thought and I had to do a little sense making at the moment.
17:06
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not a dog, he couldn't be a dog and I just shot up and you know, it was a bear that was just checking my head out and as soon as I shot up it.
17:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Holy cow, are you serious right on your head right on my head and so that that was at that point, you know, that the joke was heavily heavily enshrined that Desso was was trying to kill me.
17:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my, dude, are you serious?
17:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Holy cow, I didn't realize those, you know, like a mountain lion and a bear were down in that cane and that is wild cheese.
17:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, you know, you know, they're certainly around, you know, the black bear and some areas there can be a real nuisance during the summertime, but yeah, this was shoulder season.
17:50
[SPEAKER_03]: So a lot less traffic going down the river.
17:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, man, that is that is crazier than I expected.
18:00
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't even in the water.
18:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It was what it was the crazy party now.
18:03
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this isn't.
18:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this isn't camp.
18:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Yo, I've, you know, I feel like I've had a number of challenging situations in the in the river environment, but, but that's kind of far for the course that feel like you just.
18:16
[SPEAKER_03]: That that comes with the territory.
18:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Another reason that you know, I just try to stay sharp on the skills and so that I can react to those situations with somewhat ease.
18:27
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's what I strive for at least.
18:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're you're you're an expert in the water, um, but you know, there's no book about how to deal with bears.
18:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It can't sniffing your sniffing your head.
18:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just got to have to rely on instincts at that point and do your best.
18:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So speaking of that, how have you been able to manage risk over the years in the water?
18:48
[SPEAKER_02]: What, you know, your views are obviously you get better.
18:51
[SPEAKER_02]: You get more skilled in your white water abilities.
18:55
[SPEAKER_02]: But how do you manage that?
18:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I hear a lot of people, especially when they become, you know, a parent, a mom or dad, they decide to get out of white water just because it's so dangerous.
19:07
[SPEAKER_02]: How have you been able to stick with it?
19:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'd say, you know, professionally, like when I'm working, I just say that over the years, I probably just naturally become more conservative and and that's based on prior experiences and then the experiences of colleagues of mine that that just really strike home the the very real risks involved and and I think I really work hard to to make decisions appropriate for the specific people that I'm working with.
19:39
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, generally I just have a very low tolerance for minor injuries and certainly major injuries, and so I do do what I can to manage the risk to avoid those if possible.
19:54
[SPEAKER_03]: I know that random things can happen, but I really err on the side of.
20:00
[SPEAKER_03]: kind of conservative judgment and decision making at this point.
20:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And then for myself, yes, there was a time where I certainly was interested in challenging myself as much as I possibly could.
20:14
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, through kind of reevaluating my own interests and desires for the sport after having a family, it's like I still very much love, absolutely love being on the water.
20:30
[SPEAKER_03]: or for risk is certainly down a notch or so.
20:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I still like to push myself, but I just find different ways to push myself that allow me a bit of a buffer so that if I do have a slip up or a misapp that the consequences aren't died.
20:49
[SPEAKER_02]: That's always a good direction to be going.
20:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's everything.
20:54
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I totally get it, man, and that's, you know, I'm definitely digging because I'm a dad, too.
20:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm seeing my wrist taller and change.
21:00
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know what's interesting is I see my wrist taller and changing, tolerance changing.
21:06
[SPEAKER_02]: But my enjoyment for anything isn't going down.
21:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It's changing as well, you know what I mean?
21:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I enjoy it just as much if not more, even though I'm not maybe heading so recklessly all the time.
21:19
[SPEAKER_02]: um, that's been an interesting conclusion.
21:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
21:23
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm breaking it.
21:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Then we originally reached out wanting to hear about this specific adventure you did.
21:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Just kind of some details about it.
21:32
[SPEAKER_02]: But you did this this first descent and boot time on this section of a river.
21:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just kind of want to hear about that.
21:38
[SPEAKER_02]: How that project came about.
21:39
[SPEAKER_02]: What it was exactly and maybe why it was so meaningful to you and why it was so important to do.
21:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
21:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
21:48
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, this trip to Bhutan was put together by a couple that I have worked with extensively over the years, Mary and Phil DeRamer, and they own DeRamer adventure kayaking.
22:05
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I worked with them throughout the US with these kind of rap-supported white water kayak trips.
22:12
[SPEAKER_03]: going down all these classic runs like the rogue river and middle fork of the sand and the main sand and going through the Colorado in the Grand Canyon.
22:21
[SPEAKER_03]: And they also run trips in Bhutan and I'd expressed interest early on, hey, if there's ever an opportunity to come over there, I would love to work with y'all there.
22:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And so after a few years, an opportunity did present itself
22:43
[SPEAKER_03]: a really extensive trip in Bhutan that started on the west side of Bhutan and you know traveled through the middle of Bhutan all the way to the eastern side of Bhutan and then ultimately culminated with this first descent.
22:59
[SPEAKER_03]: of the lower-curry tune.
23:02
[SPEAKER_03]: At the time, Mary was not interested in paddling at the level that was going to be necessary to paddle all those rivers, or at least she wasn't comfortable being in the role of guiding those trips.
23:14
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, Phil asked if I'd be interested inizing that I hadn't been over there.
23:20
[SPEAKER_03]: My role wasn't going to be as much of a guide as it was going to be more of a safety
23:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I jumped at the opportunity and so this is back in 2015 and we had a really great quality group of folks that just interpersonally they were really everybody job socially and then.
23:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And then yeah, just we got to paddle in some absolutely amazing places.
23:46
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, Bhutan is just an extraordinary place.
23:50
[SPEAKER_03]: And so while the traveling route, the entire country was exhaustive, you know, to be able to culminate with this, this first descent was something that was just kind of the, the excitement that was kind of lying underneath the entire turn.
24:06
[SPEAKER_03]: It was the end of the trip towards the end of the trip, I guess, on a 16 day trip, where this was day 14 that we launched from the Courichu, and the logistics were complicated because we were starting, obviously in Bhutan, but we were gonna take off the river in India.
24:28
[SPEAKER_03]: And so this meant a lot of things for the folks that were helping us with our logistics.
24:34
[SPEAKER_03]: But for us, it meant, hey, we just need to on the river and we have to get down to the takeout because that's where our buses, our passports, the whole nine yards are going to be and so we got to the area.
24:48
[SPEAKER_03]: two days prior and we paddled a section of the curie chew that was what we consider to be the middle curie chew which was kind of a a step down and difficulty from the rivers that we had been paddling for the past two weeks and so more in the we had been paddling kind of in the class for maybe a occasional four plus range and this was like class three
25:13
[SPEAKER_03]: not very technical.
25:15
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we kind of thought, like, hey, the lower courage you based on the Google images and all the info that we can get, we think it's going to be a step down.
25:23
[SPEAKER_03]: So it could be a pretty low stress experience for folks.
25:28
[SPEAKER_03]: And so when we talked our boats for the two nights that we were going to spend out there, we were feeling good about, hey, like this is probably going to be a little bit of a step down.
25:38
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're going to see a beautiful place that nobody else has seen before and so not long after we launched and got on the water I started realizing like hey there's there's a little bit more going on then I think we we all had imagined and on that first day just the difficulty just kind of slowly ramped up and up and up and at the end of that first day we had a real scare where we got to a rapid that.
26:04
[SPEAKER_03]: From the top it initially it didn't look like it could be run and it didn't look like it could be portaged So it looked like we we could be in a real pinch Fortunately, we're we're able to find a way to portage around in unrunnable's portion of the rapid and then we're going to be able to slide in and paddle kind of the second half of the rapid
26:26
[SPEAKER_03]: But still a very juicy, very challenging rapid that we had to navigate that second half and in that process, one of our participants flipped over and got pushed up against the cliff wall and just disappeared out of our site for a pretty long time.
26:52
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, because seconds feel like minutes and minutes feel like hours.
26:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I would imagine it was probably for about three minutes.
27:00
[SPEAKER_03]: We didn't have eyes on him or his a gear and
27:05
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, the worst possible things are going through my mind in that moment.
27:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's torture.
27:10
[SPEAKER_03]: It was.
27:10
[SPEAKER_03]: And from the position we were in myself and Phil were unable to get back up to be able to do anything.
27:17
[SPEAKER_03]: However, we still had a boot knees guide, tinley that was with us and tinley was going to be the last one to go on that wrap.
27:26
[SPEAKER_03]: And so he was able to scramble around on the cliff edge and see down that
27:34
[SPEAKER_03]: He had clipped over and gotten pushed into a just a very precarious Eddie that was right up against the cliff that you know was very challenging for anybody else to but he was he was all you know he was out of his boat, but he and his boat and his paddle wrong the Eddie and so Tim may was able to help get him back up at the challenging thing was that he had to run the rapid again because there was no way around and just fortunately this guy had a
28:00
[SPEAKER_03]: a rock solid mind, you know, he just didn't like he was able to stay kind of emotionally detached in that moment and he just put back on got in his kayak and peeled out of the eddy and made the move just barely and we all had a good celebration when he got down to the bottom of the wrap and but yeah, I think that just that particular experience just ramped up the volume of stress and intensity.
28:26
[SPEAKER_03]: And we were only into the first day.
28:28
[SPEAKER_03]: And so fortunately, that night, we were able to find a camp just downstream from that rapid.
28:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And we had a gorgeous night cooking overfires and just able to kind of share some excitement for the experience.
28:44
[SPEAKER_03]: But there was a lot of nervous energy going into that day, too.
28:48
[SPEAKER_03]: What was worse is that our
28:50
[SPEAKER_03]: our boot knees guide, Tinley, ended up getting quite sick that night and he was really, really sick.
28:57
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, just, you know, food poisoning, something of the sort that really hindered his ability to be a productive part of the group for the following day.
29:07
[SPEAKER_03]: He was able to get down the river, but he, he was no longer able to,
29:11
[SPEAKER_03]: to work as a as a guide or any type of provide any type of safety component for the group he was really just trying to take care of himself and that second day Mason was was action pack it was back in 2015 my memories and not spot on but it felt like they were about.
29:30
[SPEAKER_03]: 20, 20 plus rapids that were in the class four or four plus range, you know, this being at the end of a two week trip, the guests on the trip were just gas.
29:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I remember filling eye, having people walk around numerous rapids and then we would, we'd kayak down the rapids and we'd get out, run back up kayak their rap, their kayak down the rapids and then get them back in their boat.
30:00
[SPEAKER_03]: It was daunting and people were, I think it being a first descent in the unknowns that go along with that.
30:07
[SPEAKER_03]: People were definitely getting stressed towards the afternoon and I think that if it couldn't have gotten worse, it did when we hadn't, we'd been in a very remote area, but all of a sudden you started to see what look like crews up on the cliff and what they were doing
30:26
[SPEAKER_03]: uh, blowing out the parts of the cliff in order to uh, to build a road that they've been working on for quite some time.
30:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, I have to scream down the fill at one point because he, uh, he didn't see what was going on.
30:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Just a, you know, hundreds of feet above us, but still above us, where, you know, these, these folks were just huck and rocks off into the cliff.
30:48
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, we're then trying to go from one side of the river to the next to a void, any potential rockfall.
30:56
[SPEAKER_03]: But you know, Mason, you know, it was a trying day, but we ended up getting to the confluence of the drug may chew, which was a unknown river for fill.
31:07
[SPEAKER_03]: You need to paddle that river a note, number of times.
31:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And so once we got to the confluence, we knew what was ahead of us.
31:14
[SPEAKER_03]: We paddle for quite some time that evening before we got to our camp, but the unknown and the most challenging,
31:22
[SPEAKER_03]: part of the trip was behind us.
31:24
[SPEAKER_03]: And so there was a level of kind of a sign of relief.
31:29
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I mean, there's so many mid-gritty micro stories within those two days.
31:35
[SPEAKER_03]: But we woke up from that second night's camp and had a short paddle down and took out on the river left side, which was India.
31:42
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, we had one night's day in India before flying out and wrapping up the trip.
31:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, you know, there's so much I'm curious about just because I, you know, I don't know much about this, but, you know, first to send is, you know, much like a first us in in the sense that no one's paddled this route before and it probably started to feel, hey, there's a reason.
32:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a first to send.
32:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
32:07
[SPEAKER_02]: all this unforeseen thing so so can ask you this where you really familiar with first dissents at that point um you know obviously I imagine some of the challenges would be not really having a guidebook or not really knowing what to expect necessarily um I might be wrong I don't know no no I I think you're you're accurate like hey at that point in time um you know
32:37
[SPEAKER_03]: However, you know, Phil Dremer, I mean, he is such a mentor and friend of mine, I consider him family, and he has just got the most impressive, he and his partner Mary have the most impressive experiences in first-to-sense and exploration, and so it was really his level of leadership and just confidence that made me, instead of kind of
33:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Instead of feeling uneasy, I just kind of felt like, hey, I just need to rise to the occasion and and just be whatever support that Phil needs in this moment.
33:12
[SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, that gave me a lot of comfort in that in that moment or in those at that time, but yet the unknowns were were certainly the kind of the stressor and yeah, there's only so much like, you know, you try to.
33:26
[SPEAKER_03]: gain as much local knowledge as you can.
33:27
[SPEAKER_03]: But that particular area and stretch of river had no roads.
33:31
[SPEAKER_03]: And so there was very little local knowledge that we could pull from.
33:35
[SPEAKER_03]: And so then we're looking at Google and Google Earth and trying to get as much as we can with satellite images.
33:42
[SPEAKER_03]: But depending on the time of year that those images were taken, it's really hard to gauge, you know, hey, what's this going to look like?
33:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that a wrap
33:53
[SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, it just more than we bargained for, but at the end of the day was not beyond what the trip was marketed as which which was a relief, you know, because if we had had people down there that were way outside of their comfort zone, it would have been a
34:10
[SPEAKER_03]: but the folks that we had while, while maybe some fatigue, like lead to them walking around rapids, most of those rapids were straightforward enough that folks could, the folks on the trip could have gotten down, had they been fresh.
34:26
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of things going on, you know, at the end of the trip, you're in a different country and then you're on a first
34:39
[SPEAKER_02]: no kidding man that that does sounds stressful and so if I like you're saying a few of the people there were essentially clients so that you were in in charge of their safety and well being and in a lot of their logistics and having to take that on yourself on a first descent that's tough.
34:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah yeah I mean I I think you know all the all the credit goes to to
35:10
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I just, uh, I think I looked at him after we got to the confluence and finished the lower courage.
35:18
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just said, you know, I think this was probably the most significant moment in my outdoor leadership, paddle sport guiding, like all, all these different roles.
35:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Like this was one of like one of the, if not the most significant experience of my career in life.
35:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Like this, it was, uh, it was an
35:38
[SPEAKER_03]: experience to reflect on and to try to pull learning from because they were just so many.
35:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I can imagine, you know, was it, would you say this was for all your experiences, unique in a way, involved certain things that the other trips did not?
35:55
[SPEAKER_03]: It was, it was unique being a first descent and in the fact that, you know, professionally,
36:07
[SPEAKER_03]: outside of the realm of normal for me.
36:10
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I think that now that experience is kind of unique because I'm just through where I'm at with my own work is that I'm seldom the assistant and I'm more the lead.
36:21
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like I have to really be on top of my game because I don't have that absolutely amazing mentor to look up to in that moment.
36:30
[SPEAKER_03]: I have to be that person and so it just makes me really
36:35
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a unique experience on a number of fronts.
36:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Was there anything you learned on that trip that you didn't want to repeat?
36:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe like, okay, I don't want to do that anymore.
36:46
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think so.
36:49
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that trip was day to day.
36:51
[SPEAKER_03]: There were small stressors.
36:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it made me check my own professional tolerance for risk.
36:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, hey, do I feel comfortable taking people in first
37:05
[SPEAKER_03]: because of my limited experience, you know, pursuing first-to-sense that that answer was no like, hey, I'm all on board any time filled the room or wants to do something like this, I will be his, you know, right hand man, whenever.
37:19
[SPEAKER_03]: But for me to be in the position of the designated leader, that was something that said, yeah, I'm not until I, you know, increase my first-to-scent resume
37:31
[SPEAKER_02]: with white water kayaks, you know, if anyone isn't familiar and, again, I don't know much, you can recollect anything I say wrong.
37:39
[SPEAKER_02]: They're just kind of those nub nose-looking kayaks that are real short, maneuverable, but you guys were touring, so you were taking all your equipment with you, your camping gear and your food,
37:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't see that a lot.
37:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't see a lot of people traveling in those.
37:56
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a thing called touring kayaks that I'm more used to.
37:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Does it change anything logistically or maneuverability-wise when you're carrying everything yourself?
38:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely, Mason.
38:09
[SPEAKER_03]: You're absolutely right.
38:11
[SPEAKER_03]: What kayaks can vary in length, but generally, what are kayaks are kind of in that?
38:17
[SPEAKER_03]: eight to ten foot range, or at least the kics that we were using, and they have a lot of rocker meaning that there's a quite a lot of, quite a lot of boat to the bottom of the boat, so that there's the boat has less boat down in the water, which makes it more maneuverable.
38:35
[SPEAKER_03]: As such, it does not want a paddle in a straight line very much, and so you really have to work to paddle it.
38:42
[SPEAKER_03]: You've got to paddle it where you've got to drive the boat where you want it to go.
38:45
[SPEAKER_03]: But you're right that they're not designed for say for at least the boats that we're using.
38:50
[SPEAKER_03]: We're not designed for say for these kind of self support kayak trips.
38:56
[SPEAKER_03]: However, through thoughtful planning and figuring out.
39:00
[SPEAKER_03]: know how we can divide up group gear and food and the like and then being really thoughtful about how we pack the boats we're able to do that.
39:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the the boats certainly as small as they are are heavily affected as soon as you put
39:17
[SPEAKER_03]: wait into the into the end of them.
39:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the challenge is like being thoughtful about your weight distribution and trying to really focus weight towards the center of the boat as much as possible, but absolutely they definitely paddle a bit differently when they're loaded down with a little bit of extra weight, which yeah was a was another added stressor for folks as we navigated some of these rapids.
39:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we're some of the misconceptions about traveling somewhere to do an adventure because, you know, for my experience every time you got these maps you're planning you have this image in your head of what the place is going to be like what the people are going to be like and never is the reality even close not not in a good or bad way it's just totally different than your then your imagination was was perceiving it was that the experience you had out there or had you had experience out there before.
40:13
[SPEAKER_03]: I had not had experience in boot time before, but I've been able to travel enough to just, you know, my personally experience is off and by the time I find a kayak to buy in a country, by the time I figure out, like,
40:32
[SPEAKER_03]: The use of a vehicle or something of the sort and figure out the details of getting to a river and the water levels that need to be at, you know, that need to to work I find that it's so much easier just going to a center, an outdoor center of some sort and, you know, being able to work with folks there.
40:50
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, because for me, I guess if you've gotten abundance of time, you can sort of those details out yourself.
40:57
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that it can be more economical to do that.
41:00
[SPEAKER_03]: But if you've got a small window of time, your your time is your money.
41:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And so you just you want to maximize your time as much as possible.
41:07
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think in those moments, just going to an outdoor center and trying to get, you know, renting a kayak.
41:14
[SPEAKER_03]: and trying to get your logistics worked through that center.
41:17
[SPEAKER_03]: It might cost a little bit more, but gosh, if you've got a limited amount of time, then that seems well worth it from my experience.
41:26
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what the folks on this trip to Bhutan, these folks that were paying us, they had a limited amount of time.
41:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, just getting to Bhutan and then getting back home is gonna take a number of days.
41:36
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, they didn't have the time where the resources to kind of figure things out on the ground.
41:43
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, they hired the outfitter that we're that I was working with, Doreen were adventuring kayaking to essentially have all those details ironed out.
41:52
[SPEAKER_03]: And then so for me, having worked with Phil and Mary for years within the US, I know exactly what I was going to be walking into in terms of,
42:03
[SPEAKER_03]: just professionalism and expectations around lodging and so on and so forth and so there wasn't a lot of surprise outside of just visiting a new country, but I tell you what, I mean, Bhutan is just an absolutely amazing country to visit.
42:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I was, you know, the people were so welcoming, so thoughtful and sweet and, and I, you know, absolutely love it.
42:26
[SPEAKER_02]: was there any unforeseen dangers, you know, kind of like your story with the the mountain line in the Bayer, that that wasn't involved in the water.
42:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I know the blast and of the road was, you know, you can't even plan for that, like, you know, but it's obviously a huge danger.
42:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Was there anything else like that that pops up or tends to pop up with water-based trips like
42:54
[SPEAKER_03]: My guard is always up for poisonous snakes like I just, you know, I'm just I've seen so many times there that I know they're around and I know they can be big and they can be aggressive and so I'm always hyper sensitive to snakes in Costa Rica, but I tell you that.
43:13
[SPEAKER_03]: That last night, that second night on that first descent in Bhutan, at that point, you know, we've gone finished lower Creature, and we're on the drawing with you, which is a known river for Phil and for other folks.
43:29
[SPEAKER_03]: It is a river that's paddled somewhat off, and for camping, and I mean at this point, we're like in like the tropical jungle, we are in tiger country, and that was known.
43:39
[SPEAKER_03]: We are in tiger country.
43:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, we were camped up on a beach on the side of the river and we've got our tarp set up and a number of us are sleeping under the tarp.
43:50
[SPEAKER_03]: We've got a little fire going and, you know, in the middle of the night, I wake up and hearing hearing some sort of a growling and a moving movement in the.
44:00
[SPEAKER_03]: the kind of the the tree line.
44:02
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just in my mind, I was just like, all right, what are you going to do?
44:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you're going to go, you know, trying to try to mentally coach myself for a interaction with a tiger, which I would have never fared for.
44:15
[SPEAKER_03]: But I'm still rehearsing the mind, like, okay, you're going to go grab a log from the fire, you know, trying to essentially emulate what I've seen on the Hollywood movies.
44:23
[SPEAKER_03]: But, uh,
44:24
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, fortunately, our bootmeas guide Timley started throwing rocks out there.
44:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Isaac Timley, what are you doing?
44:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, oh, God, he's like, oh, it's a barking deer.
44:35
[SPEAKER_03]: And so what we thought was a tiger looming in the tree line was an innocent barking deer.
44:43
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, a pleasant surprise in that regard.
44:47
[SPEAKER_02]: that is funny.
44:48
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how it is, man.
44:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Out there in the woods out there, I'll be sitting out there and thinking, I'll sum huge animals in the leaves and it's a lizard or something small and big.
45:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.
45:01
[SPEAKER_00]: What was I?
45:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It was just totally quiet and totally magnifies the effect.
45:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm dramatic as it is.
45:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was a tiger.
45:09
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's an alternative to that person.
45:11
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
45:12
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
45:12
[SPEAKER_02]: That's funny, man.
45:13
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so funny.
45:14
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, coming back home and kind of just continuing your career in life forward.
45:20
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think the biggest lesson was you learned from that experience in Beton?
45:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that Phil just modeled so well what leading a just an amazing trip look like.
45:36
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, just from his
45:39
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, social engagement with every participant, with his, his just genuinely thoughtful communication with all of the, the booties folks that we worked with.
45:52
[SPEAKER_03]: And just his ability and leadership on the water, I just, I think, you're like,
45:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow, that is my mental model of a white water trip leader.
46:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's, I see that was one of the most significant take-homes.
46:08
[SPEAKER_03]: I think for me, it reinforced like, hey, I, you know, reinforce the value of having a high level of tolerance for those, you know, adverse moments of like, hey, like,
46:22
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's a lot of unknowns that are going down that are going to have that we're going to experience downstream.
46:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I just couldn't let myself get wrapped up and I just had to stay in the moment and just try to be a model for the guests and yeah, I think that it just reinforced the value of that characteristic tolerance for adversity.
46:43
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what do you have going on now?
46:45
[SPEAKER_02]: What are some things you're doing looking forward to?
46:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I know kids change a lot of things for folks, but could you just talk about how life has been since that trip and how people can find out more about you and maybe join you on one of your adventures?
47:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, so, you know,
47:06
[SPEAKER_03]: My family and I recently relocated to Vermont, so we're living in the Green Mountains just outside of Weights field Vermont on the on the Mad River, which is an amazing place to be.
47:19
[SPEAKER_03]: We're we're absolutely loving it.
47:21
[SPEAKER_03]: And so nowadays I work mostly for myself.
47:26
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a small business precision paddle sports.
47:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And I stay busy between providing, you know, private instruction for folks that just contact me that have very specific interests as well as doing a, I do a lot of work with local colleges providing staff training as well as working with the college students.
47:48
[SPEAKER_03]: And I travel around and I teach quite a few American canoe associations instructor workshops.
47:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I do that for whitewater kayaking, canoeing, and paddle boarding.
47:59
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just finished one for standing at paddle boarding, Karen Vermont this past weekend.
48:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, while I, and as well as I also lead trips down in Costa Rica, this year we're taking a break from it just for one season, but we plan on getting back after it in 2021.
48:17
[SPEAKER_03]: And so those are whitewater trips in Costa Rica.
48:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And how experienced do you have to be to go on some of these?
48:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure there's, there's a threshold.
48:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, I just find that the trips that I'm leaving Costa Rica, I think to be the the most full throttle trips possible and and you know very quickly realize like I actually I don't really have the tolerance for for this type of risk for to put people and in being in charge of other people and these types of environments and so the
48:50
[SPEAKER_03]: We asked folks to have a reliable kayak roll and to become people in the class three environment for the trips I lead down in Costa Rica.
49:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And then certainly if you're interested in more difficult paddling more difficult white water down there in Costa Rica, while it would be on a trip with me, the folks that I work with down there are very happy to personalize people's experiences and trips down there.
49:18
[SPEAKER_02]: awesome bin will great man i'm going to plug all that make sure folks know where to find you or to find what you're doing and some of the things that uh some of the ventures you could bring some of the listeners along with um but yeah i mean i know i know you got a
49:33
[SPEAKER_02]: A little one at home.
49:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I know I do too and you know maybe maybe close to bedtime.
49:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to let you go.
49:38
[SPEAKER_02]: But thank you so much for jumping on telling your story or in a one little tiny story out of just probably the thousands you could tell.
49:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So I appreciate you diving into it a little bit and just telling us what you've learned from your experiences.
49:53
[SPEAKER_02]: It was this was really fun.
49:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Mason, I really appreciate the opportunity and yeah, just thank you so much.
50:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
50:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll let you know if we're ever up there.
50:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to love to connect.
50:03
[SPEAKER_02]: You seem like just a great teacher.
50:05
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'd love to learn from you anytime.
50:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Take care and thank thanks again, Mason.
50:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, sir.
50:11
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
50:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Talk soon, Ben.
50:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll let you know when this comes out.
50:15
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
50:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
50:15
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
50:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye.
50:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Bye.
50:21
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50:26
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50:33
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50:41
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50:49
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