Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 588. Unlocking Courageous Leadership + Using Courage as a Competitive Advantage - Ryan Berman

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588. Unlocking Courageous Leadership + Using Courage as a Competitive Advantage - Ryan Berman · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm John.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: And I'm Becky.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: And this is the we Are For Good podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: So welcome to the good community.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: So let's, get started, becky, what's happening?
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Are you ready to be courageous?
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: I need a little courage up in here, for sure.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like this is a really perfectly timed conversation, but can I tell a story about how I met our guest so I can tattle on myself before we actually get into this?
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: So we got a dear friend in the we Are For Good community, justin McCord, with our KD group, and he messaged John and I and said here's one human you really need to meet and it's Ryan Berman, our incredible guest today and the king of courage.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: And so I set up a time.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: I'm like I got to meet Ryan.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: I'm reading his bio, I'm looking at the website.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh yeah, this is a kindred soul Well, becky who does not judiciously cover her calendar when she travels.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Does anyone else have this problem?
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Like, I forget to block off my calendar.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Ryan books me at 8 am when I am in San Francisco en route from Berkeley.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: I am literally in an Uber and all of a sudden we're getting right into the meat of it.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: We're crossing the San Francisco-Oakland Bridge, my phone dies, I lose all coverage, the laptop dies, and that is my intro to Ryan Berman, and he continued to take my calls and be my friend and y'all.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: You are in for such a treat today, because Ryan is the real deal.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: He is that person who's going to come in.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: He's going to help us unlock the courage inside our team and unlock that courage in your ideas and your organization, and y'all.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: He is the founder of Courageous, this change consultancy that really develops courage brands and trains companies and orgs how to operationalize courage, which is such a cool idea.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: So today we're going to be talking about how courage is your competitive advantage, and he has had really a storied career in developing meaningful stories for household brands like hello, major League Baseball, john that's sports, caesars Entertainment, unicef, subway, new Era.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: And Ryan believes that change is hard but the hardships that come from not changing are harder.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: And so y'all, I just love Ryan because not only does he have his own podcast called the Courageous Podcast, he's got an incredible boot camp, he's got a book we're going to talk about all of the things but, most importantly, he took this notion of courage and put it right into an incredible sock nonprofit that benefits so many of our friends that have been on this podcast.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: So that's a teaser.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: We'll get into it.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Ryan Berman, welcome to the we Are For Good podcast.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: We are not going to drop your call today, I promise.
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: Well, I think you broke the record for how many times you said courage in a minute.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, courage, courage, courage.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: There's three more.
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: The over-under was 21.
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: You hit it, you nailed it, but hey that's what it is.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: You're going to bring it to me.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Well, you're going to bring it to me.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: I think you've unleashed something within me and I just I really like how you show up in this world.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: I love your brand, I love how you ignite it inside people, but, like we never want to go straight into what you do, we want to know who you are.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: So, like, take us back how, like tell us about little Ryan growing up and how he got this heart for justice and doing good.
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: I kind of won the lottery on this stuff.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: I grew up outside of DC Play, just played.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: I was like parents together.
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: Still, I was a free range kid.
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: That was the second of two.
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: My brother, who's four and a half years older than me, was deemed the smart one and I was deemed the good with people.
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: One.
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: And, to be honest, I felt I had to outwork people because my brother was, oh, he was like, if I was a millionaire, he's my, he's getting my call Right and so.
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: But I was the one who was like oh well, what am I going to do with my life?
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: How am I going to make a dent in this world?
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: I will say, when you grow up outside of DC and I played, all you know, you'd made a comment about John in sports, like, whatever season it was, I was playing, I was competing.
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: Soccer is still my love.
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: It's still one of the reasons I love living in San Diego.
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: I still play, played Sunday, feeling the pain right now.
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: That is one of the reasons I love living in San Diego.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: I still play, played.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Sunday feeling the pain right now.
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: That is one of the joys of being out here, but so I think it's like I was always competitive.
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: I always knew I had to outwork other people.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: And again, this is my own makeup.
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: This is my crazy makeup, right.
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: And then, at the age of 12, hey, you asked for this, right, I did.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: I'm excited I'm meeting them up.
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: We end up at a summer house with friends from New York and I'm impersonating somebody, like 12-year-olds do, and she turns to me and she's like Ryan, you should look at Ithaca College for television radio.
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: You're so funny and it was like a record scratch moment and I was like wait a minute, you can study television radio.
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: I've been studying television my whole life.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: I'm an expert on television.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: You've been doing research your whole life.
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't know that was the thing.
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: And so from that moment on, I knew that I was.
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: That story was was something that I wanted to learn more of and play with, and you know, I ended up a television radio major.
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: At the college I wasn't sure if I was going to LA or New York.
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: Um, the plan was, um, I spent one summer in LA working on a lot, but then had an opportunity to go to an ad agency in New York and the rest was history.
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: We were going to the city and next thing you know, I'm in a 700 person ad network learning story from crazy madmen.
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: And that was in the 90s.
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: And here we are, decades later.
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: I've owned creative agencies now for over two decades and then really realized, when I was trying to position my last company, we had the premise of courageous ideas are the only ones that matter, that, wow, courageous ideas die without courageous leaders.
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: And I was like no, no, no, no, no, no, stay on this track on courageous ideas.
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: That's what I've been doing for 20 years.
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: And then, the more I realized the way that if I don't fix this part, we'll never get like, no one will even get to present courageous ideas.
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: And I.
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: It wasn't like it was all on my shoulders, but it was definitely a big part of my next chapter, my next journey.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, love this journey so much because we're fascinated by people's stories and how it like connects and the through lines.
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: And I feel like you had this notion of chasing courage and you went and literally backed into all these storylines of like, what does it look like below the surface?
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: So your book return on courage.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: I want to kind of kick it to you because not only did you dive into like, let's say, an astronaut, a Navy SEAL, the co-founder of Method Hello, just spraying some of that a minute ago over here but like you ask these folks, like what happens below the surface?
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: You know, how do you accomplish these liberating personal and business feats?
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: Like, what does it take inside the DNA of somebody to actually do this thing?
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: So tell us about that experience and what you learned of somebody to actually do this thing.
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: So tell us about that experience and what you learned.
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think.
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: I think it's important to share that.
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: My largest surprise, so the book itself.
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: I, it's not a soapbox book, it's not like, let me tell you how smart Ryan Berman is.
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: I remember I already set up like my brother was the smart one.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: He was the one that probably should have wrote the book.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: I'm just like I'm gonna outwork you, right.
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: So so, not surprisingly, especially at the time that I'm writing the book, it's basically a thousand day listening tour, right, and I'm sitting with all these people.
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: I can't really even explain, john, like, why they let me into their lives.
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: They weren't clients, I wasn't paying anybody.
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: Explain, john, why they let me into their lives.
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: They weren't clients, I wasn't paying anybody.
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: I think they resonated with the word of courage, and so next thing, you know you're sitting with Eric Ryan, who's like come up and have lunch with me.
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: He's Eric's founder of Method.
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: Now Welly Ollie, a lot of brands we know.
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: Lot of brands we know, and and the first aha that I had was there's like not that much different between me and them, except they're going for it and I'm I'm really not like like I remember thinking that and I look, I guess, in the grand scheme of things, having a 80 person creative agency is going for it.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: But in my silly competitive brain I was like, wow, there's nothing different between them and me except they're real, they're human, they know who they are.
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: Why am I not going for it?
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: And then the first six months of the book was really just my.
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: I really had a conflict with the definition of courage, like if you look at the dictionary definition of courage, it's the ability to do something that frightens you.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: And I and I was like, well, how does that?
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: Where's the utility in that definition?
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: Like, how does that help me?
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: Like when I really need to be brave?
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: And you know, going into this, I was looking at it from the business lens, right?
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: So let's say, courage is a currency and you're in a business where you can't use it everywhere or you'll be broke, you'll be emotionally broke, you'll be exhausted if you try to use courage everywhere.
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: So I was like, how do you actually help people realize, well, I'm frightened of that, I'm frightened of that.
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: Like, well, which one?
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: Which is the place that you should use your currency?
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: And not?
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: So one of the aha moments I had early was I wonder if there's a better definition of courage.
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: We now look at this through the lens of three levers there's knowledge, there's faith and there's action.
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: And you think about your life.
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: You're never going to have every bit of knowledge.
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: You need to make a call the data.
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: People really don't love this, right?
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: Because it's like, well, we're still collecting all the data.
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: It's like, well, if we wait for 100% of the data, we're probably going to get passed by somebody we see or someone we don't see.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: There's a garage somewhere where some startup is working right to take you down, and so how much knowledge do you need before you leap?
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: And that's, I think, where faith comes in.
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: And we talk about faith, we mean it more in the conviction sense, in the inner belief sense, right?
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: How often have you known the right move and you felt the right move and then nothing happens, there's no action.
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: So if you just remove one of the three levers, it's something else.
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: Knowledge plus faith without action is paralysis.
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: Faith and action without knowledge is a reckless move.
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: Maybe get a little bit of data before we leave, and then knowledge and action without faith.
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: If you're numb on the inside, you're probably working on status quo, you're working on safe and again, I think you're a sitting duck and I'm not here to create fear for anybody, but it's like okay, let's look for the knowledge, let's look for the faith and let's look for the action.
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: Another way to say that is knowledge is the think, faith is the feel and action is the do.
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: So what do you think, how do I feel and what are we going to do about it?
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: This is really resonating with me and I hope listeners, that you're nodding and you're seeing yourself in this and I want to know how we can sort of start to channel this, because this is going to be an era that we're going to need to seize incredible courage from deep within, and you talk about courage as being this incredible competitive advantage and knowing that this is that our audience here is mostly nonprofit professionals, people who serve the impact spaces.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: You know, how do you define that courage?
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: I know you just kind of did just then.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I would love for you to kind of put it through the lens of impact work and why do you think it's often overlooked in this sector?
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: I think we all have the best intentions.
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: Right, like, theoretically, like our mission is X, and then mission erosion happens for one reason or another.
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: Right, like life happens.
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: We move forward, there's problems keeping your team, you're falling behind on donors, all the stuff kind of starts to bury you.
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: And it's not colossal out of the gate, it's these little iterative moments, but it's happening in every direction.
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: And you know, the number one value at Courageous is sacrifice.
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: Wow, which, when people say you know, hear that they're like what?
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like the main thing is the main thing.
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: Like we help our partners remember what the main, the main thing is right.
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: And and I think, by the way, like the amount of times we've worked with companies, this is not in the sector, this is companies will walk into an off-site and we'll learn that they've got 15 priorities and they're like has anybody prioritized the priorities?
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, no wonder everyone is exhausted.
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: Nobody ever is feeling that paralysis.
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: So, through the lens of courage, the lens of knowledge, faith and action, you know, let's go back to what do I know?
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: What do I know?
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: I know our mission is X.
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: Right, I know that our values say we are going to operate in a certain way.
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: If you're listening to this and you're in a position of authority, step back and look at again.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: Go back and look at the mission.
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: Is it clear?
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: Go back and look at the values.
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: If I'm on a soapbox for anything, it's like.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: This is what I learned from people like from Eric and people at Harvard and Domino's Core values are not eye rolls, they're how, the exceptional roll, oh and when.
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: They're real and there's not 10 of them and they're not just collecting dust on a wall.
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: Everyone at Patagonia knows the deal Like, if you're at Patagonia, it's to save our human planet.
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: If I show up in a Hummer for an interview, I've already lost the job.
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: Right, I've lost the interview and so they're running everything through this filter.
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: So I think on the knowledge side, it's like what do we know?
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: Are we truly living the mission?
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: Are we truly living the values?
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: Do we have to clarify and simplify?
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: So clarity is our second value.
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: Third is magic.
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: I think most companies are really good at making you think.
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: They're not great at making you feel.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: When you see magic, you're like, oh my God, do it again.
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: And I think we're all kind of rolling on autopilot right now.
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: We all need a magic trick right now.
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: And the only thing I'll say is to the magician it's not a trick, like the magician is trained to do something, to emote an emotion that you think you see.
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: It's not hoodwinking.
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: And so, again, the knowledge side is the think side.
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: What do we know?
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: What do we know about our mission?
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: And then is there still conviction, like if you've been doing this a while and you're numb on the inside and we understand why you would be exhausted.
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: You're time starved.
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: Resources aren't what they used to be.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: Maybe you haven't been able to like, inspire and motivate the team.
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: You've got to figure out a way to like recenter.
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: I always say no, feel no deal right.
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: Like, how do we get people back on board, back on the mission?
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: And then we can't just talk about the stuff.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: The action piece is where's the investment going to go?
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: It could be an investment of time, it could be an actual investment, but, like it's getting our mojo back and just maybe it's iterative at first but it's back to the mission.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: What do we say was the most important thing?
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: Keep the main thing, the main thing.
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: So that's how we use the three levers of courage.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm loving this because I'm one of those people that feels like they need to make up for it by overworking things, by having 15 priorities, doing all the things, and I think when you're talking I'm just reflecting that maybe there's ego tied up in that too.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: It's like you have to face that.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: Having courage is saying I can't do all of this.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: You know like I'm going to do this really deeply well and letting the other things open your hands for partnerships or for new, different ways to you know work in the community, but you don't have to solve it all.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: Like ways to work in the community, but you don't have to solve it all, I think that's a kind of a relief, too, right.
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: And you think about the people that you lead, john, and they're watching you, like the next generation leaders, watching these behaviors.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: So then did they think, well, I must have to do 15 things also, right?
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: So I think, the minute we all realized that we're mirrors this is why I love Justin McCord soord so much.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: By the way, let's give him some, oh my gosh, the greatest human you know, because just justin, I'm sure justin's trying to overwork, like the rest of us, but like he's not afraid to be himself, I think he knows who he is.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: You know, I, I, I feel like I got to go get my phd in myself at the around the age of 40, right, I, I, you, go on this adventure of writing the book, thinking I thought I'm writing this devious business card to you know to position my last business and wrote, realized I wrote the book cause I needed the book first.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: And then I've got an 11 year old and a nine year old watching every move I make, right?
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: So I want them to like, have the playbook if they want to be courageous and whatnot.
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, it starts with you and I think we're mirrors.
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: I think when we have energy, others are going to have energy.
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: I think if we're a jerk, guess what You're going to get back?
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: You're going to be a jerk back.
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: So I think when you're vulnerable, john, and you say you know, hey, maybe this is on me I think that gives other people permission to go there as well.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: And I think that's what leadership is all about.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: So good, well, could we talk about the elephant in the room of fear?
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Because I think fear, whether we call it that or not, I think that is what holds us back, you know how can?
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: How do you tackle that?
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: You know how do you overcome it in your work yeah, and I think like there's been times where I've gotten this so wrong, right, like there's been times where you know, look, first of all, that's a little anyone play poker have heard like if you can't spot the sucker, you are the sucker.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that's me.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so like.
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: I think on fear, it starts with the awareness to know you have a fear.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: You got to.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: You have to at least know that there's a fear.
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: But I think in the past, like a lot of people, I would want to bury that fear as fast as possible, like we want to suppress it right Versus address it.
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: And now I mean, you nailed it the fear and courage are siblings, they.
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: You can't get to one without the other.
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: So that that's the opposite of suppressing fear.
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: I'm not a FOMO guy, I'm not a fear of missing out guy, I'm a FOMF guy.
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: Fear of missing fear guy, right.
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: Say it again I'm a FOMF, yes, fomf, fomf, f-o-m-f.
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: And so what I would ask of you is the most normal thing you could do is have a fear.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: It is as normal as the air we breathe.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: It is as normal as the air we breathe.
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: The idea of bringing it to the surface and talking about it with your team or with others, like that's how you actually start to overcome it and get through it.
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: And usually the thing that's really cool this is good news and the bad news is like, when you actually take on a fear, you're and even when you're terrified like I, still get nervous.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: When I go on a stage to keynote somewhere, I still feel that it's not like I'm a robot, someone unplugged me at 100% and then I go onto a stage, I still feel that fear.
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: But once I get up there and I go through it, I almost always feel happier on the other side of it.
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: I always feel like the energy is real.
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: Now, usually this is the good news and the bad news is I guess the good news is you're building the muscle on how to spot fear, how to fight fear, how to celebrate fear.
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: I've never been like a fearless dude.
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: I'm like I we are a fear more.
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: I want you to actually normalize fear and not be afraid of it.
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: So when you see it, you can decide which one you want to take on, and this is why I feel that courage is a competitive advantage If we're literally wired to fear change.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: It's called your central nervous system.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: It was nervous.
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: It's like right there in the middle.
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: Of course it's just trying to protect you, but if I already know that 95% of the population won't hunt down, take on fear even when they know it, I'd rather be part of the 5% that's going hey, I don't know our way through on this.
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: This might be messy, but this is a thing we've got to figure out.
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: What's standing in the way of our success is attacking this fear head on.
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: Let's do it together and see what's on the other side.
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: Here's the bad news.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: On the other side is another fear.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: Okay, look at that burn.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: A million of them behind you.
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, these are facts.
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: It's like anyone who's ever climbed a mountain before.
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: You're like this is like I cannot wait to conquer this mountain.
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: And then you get up there and what's?
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: On the other side, another mountain.
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: You're like where did that come from?
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: So these are just the facts on fear, but I think normalizing it and humanizing it is what we try to do.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: So good.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: This is really resonating with me, and I just think that we have got to have an abundance of courage in this time to dig deep and to be that change, because the antidote of fear we're talking about that on this podcast since episode one that to be vulnerable is to be human, and to share means that we're going to be able to find people who are going through the same thing that we're going to, and we really want courage to be contagious.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: And so I'm looking at this right now through the lens even of leadership, because, leaders, you are the ones who can really start to unlock this within your teams, within your culture, within every part of your mission.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: And so, ryan, talk to the leaders, talk to us about some of the common obstacles you've seen with leaders who are trying to really embrace this as a way for the team to move forward, and how have you seen them face building courage within their own teams?
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: We'd love any tips here.
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: So look, I would say the first thing is, don't worry about the need for courage and abundance.
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: I would say little steps.
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: There you go All right, I would say imagine you're going to the Courage Gym.
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: You're not going to lift 500 pounds on day one, right, you should probably work a leg day in there too.
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: But that's a separate joke, right?
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: Like to me, it's the starting.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: It is John.
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: I think you kind of nailed it earlier, Like maybe it is a little bit of surrendering the starting.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: It's the, it is John.
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: I think you kind of nailed it earlier, Like maybe it is a little bit of surrendering the ego.
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: Maybe it is a little bit of saying you know what I don't know.
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: I actually don't know how we're good.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: We know that this is a problem we're trying to attack, and so I think starting small might be the bringing the hard conversation first to the table.
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: Just start there.
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: Courage isn't about like the death blow in the 15th round.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: It might be willing to go to the ring, Okay what is the?
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: first round story that we need to have as a team, first round conversation we need to have as a team.
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: You know when we now describe courageous and we're six years in on this, so I guess I should finish this, my part of the story, like so I write, I write return on courage as a way to position my last business, because how do you compete from san diego against new york and la Like?
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: This is what my brain was thinking and what I realized was I was more passionate about helping leaders unlock courage in their organization than I was about doing what I was doing before.
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: It's still through story.
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: It's like what is the story that's permeating through the veins of this company?
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: What is the one red thread that HR should be living, that I should be living, that our team should be living, that we're working on every single day and we're just so cloudy on the inside.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: So helping companies get clear on the inside to take that story to the outside is how you can be truly brave.
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: So you can imagine, to my surprise when I come back from the book writing journey and realize that the very organism that I helped build and I would call it an organism like I'm not, like I've moved on from that, and so I ended up firing myself in 2017.
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: Wow that's courageous Touche and I had a two-year non-compete and then in 2019, we launched Courageous and Billy Collins, who was at Johnson Johnson he's one of my partners.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: He runs what we call our knowledge team and he got an early copy of the book and was like, hey, I'm seeing this from the J&J.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: He's like I'm feeling this from inside the company.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: This is really landing with me.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: Now we realize that every company is like a train and every company wishes they were an express train, but every company needs to be the local it literally is stopping.
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: What is the hard conversation first that we need to have, okay, next stop.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: What's conversation first that we need to have Okay, next stop?
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: What's the hard decision we need to make Okay, next stop.
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: What is our courageous idea that we're bringing to the market?
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: Next stop, okay Now.
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: Now we can talk about courageous change.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: Now we can talk about, you know, courageous reinvention.
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: The train is moving in the right direction and it truly is helping companies.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: Sort of see, step by step by step, starting with the conversation you do not want to have Maybe that's with yourself or with your team but the amount of biting our lip that companies and leaders are doing right now.
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: So I'm saying like don't, don't try to lift 500 pounds.
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: Just bring that first conversation to the table and trust your team enough to have that and be vulnerable with them.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: And then let's go to the next stop on the train and see where it goes from there.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it just like any kind of habit like that just is going to snowball over time as you kind of stack your proof that this worked.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: We didn't.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: We didn't lose the whole farm.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: You know, when we took that last risk, I think of it was a value of the Michael and Susan Dell foundation.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: We met Dulari Gandhi, who was the program officer at the time in the first season of this podcast, and one of their values was take the risk your challenge deserves.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: And that's like stuck with me of like man we got to lean into like bravery.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: I mean we're trying to solve some of the world's hardest problems in this space.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: You know from a place of good intentions and all that sort of thing.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: But it's like are we really taking that risk that this deserves?
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's a life changing for a lot of people.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: So that's bubbling up for me over here.
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: I mean, imagine that this is for anyone listening.
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: Imagine that I am an intelligent 25 year old and I want to.
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: I want to change the world and I make a choice to go into nonprofit sector and my options I don't even know the names of the companies, okay, but my options are take the.
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: Take the risk the challenge deserves.
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: Is that the line yeah, yeah, yeah, right, versus integrity, excellence, integrity, integrity, integrity, teamwork.
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: So I think here's the second big ask You've got to start thinking about the context of your nonprofit and with others.
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: And it's not about competing with other nonprofits, but it is about like, how do we stand out in an authentic way that people are going to want to get on this train and fight for you?
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: And I think the context piece, like the best way I can describe this the amount of resumes I've seen in my life not small, right, so people are like all right, I nailed, I nailed the resume, like it's so perfect, it's like my name is here and this I like helvetica and here are my four jobs and look at my cringes right and it's like you made it so perfectly on strategy that it just sits in with 70 other resumes that looks just like them.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: and I think, think the story side, the marketing side of me is the ability to realize this media piece world that we're living in and that we need to figure out a way to uniquely stand out.
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: So when I hear, take the risks that your challenge deserves, I'm like I am ready to climb that mountain, I am ready to go fight that fear.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: And when I see, come work with us.
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: We value integrity, excellence, collaboration, like spin me around and like throw a dart at a wall, like I don't know what it's.
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: Every company, what is that?
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: So good.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Now I just want to like create a campaign, a marketing campaign, john.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: That's like the courageous campaign.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: I've got all these ideas going in my head about how we could even verbalize and socialize and bring our community into being courageous, Because that's one thing I do want to say about this conversation that it's stirring up.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: For me, it's not just about the internal team, it's also about the external community that's wrapped around your mission.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: And how do you bring them in to these big ideas and to these big ideals, into accountability, into being scared?
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: We're all scared.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Every single human being has been scared at some point in their life, and so I just want to really encourage people who are listening right now to take this in.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Do the 1% shifts, like Ryan is suggesting.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Think about it for yourself, think about it for your organization, think about it beyond the organization into the community.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: This is how real change starts to ripple from the inside out.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: And, by the way, over 10 years, five years, like those, those little incremental changes they do, they do add up, they do add up.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: So it might feel colossal than Becky, but like I love what you're saying about, like, hey, just do what others won't do, they won't even stay curious.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: Maybe I should have called it the return on curiosity.
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: Like to stay curious, right, stay curious on that question that you want answered, which I think keeps fear sort of in check the right way.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, I mean hearing about your book.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: I think, becky and I would say the same way, that this podcast has changed us, because it's all about just being curious and hearing people's journeys and opening up your mind.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: So love the lens, my friend, that you're walking into this room today and we love story here.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: We celebrate philanthropy on the daily.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: We don't think it's just mega gifts, we think it's acts of generosity.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: I wonder if you would just take us back to a story that has stuck with you, where you've seen philanthropy that's really stuck with you in your path.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: Well, so I have a little stock company.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, please tell this story.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, I was hoping you would do this.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Keep going.
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: So I have a little how do I use what I think I'm best at for good?
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: And I had this idea for like eight to 10 years and I am definitely of the mindset of like if the idea is still there, like you must do something about the idea.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: Like if lots of ideas fly away, but if certain ideas stay, so War of art right there, right, I keep talking about war of art on the podcast, but that's it.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: I mean facts, right.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: So, basically, when I fired myself from my last life, I had a two-year non-compete and I was like, if you pick up Return on Courage, you'll see the book itself.
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: The front half is like why now?
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: Why do we have to be courageous?
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: And then, how do you actually do it?
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: That knowledge, faith and action, those three levers, is like.
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: Well, which knowledge should you follow?
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: How do you build faith and where do you take action?
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: We go deeper on those answers.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: So I have this methodology.
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: Just what the world needed was another dude with the method, guilty, right.
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, why?
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: Why?
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: I now have this two-year window where I'm like, well, okay, let me test this, like let me see, do I have something?
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: And so all I did was use what I learned along the book writing journey of how to create what I call courage brand to create my own courage brand, and it's called sock problems.
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: And if there's a problem in the world that you'd want to sock, what would that problem be?
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: And playing obviously on both verb and noun, right, and now you can actually buy a pair of socks that helps you sock that problem.
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: If you wanted to sock racism, if you wanted to sock climate change, if you wanted to sock breast cancer, if you wanted to sock prostate cancer, if you wanted to sock prostate cancer, and so at sockproblemscom you'll see we have around 13 problems that we're socking.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: There's 13 pairs of uh, 13 designs, from sock bullying to sock extinction and on every every sock has a different charity partner where we send 25 of the proceeds back to those partners.
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: Because, let's be realistic, I'm not an expert in stocking problems like your guests are.
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: I'm just, you know, storyteller.
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: So this is our way of doing our part, where we want to support people, literally support them, um, support their feet and stand with them as they're doing their thing, and and it's been a wild ride Like I actually sell this is probably not great thing to share, but like I sell more socks from a stage now, because I call them sock talks, I'll be doing a keynote without shoes and then it's like oh my God, what are?
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: those Like this is so cool, you know.
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: So that's that's one of my little side projects.
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: Is is like doing sock problems and trying to get that out in the world.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: I love it so much.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: As we wind up here, ryan, we end all of our conversations with a one good thing, and I wonder what would be a kind of piece of advice, a life hack, something that you live by?
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: What's a one good thing you'd like to live with our audience?
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: The challenge is go back, go back, go back to school.
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: On yourself.
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: Maybe I just take take a moment.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: This is December, right?
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: So here's this.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: I I am a huge advocate of triggers on the calendar, so we've got December here.
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: I'm a I'm a resolution guy.
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: By the way, lots of people don't love resolutions.
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: I like resolutions.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: Maybe this is a good time to sort of step back and, like, get clear on who you are, and one of the most impactful lines I heard along my book writing journey is it takes you 40 years to figure out who you are and the next 40 to be that person and that same person's.
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: Like the deaf, you know their definition of success is when there's no daylight between the personal you and the professional you.
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: So you know what do you need to, like, learn about yourself that you're going to bring into next year.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: Right control, you can control.
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: You can control yourself.
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: You can control where you put your time.
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: But, like, if you don't know what you stand for, you never know when to take a stand, and so get clear on yourself.
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: Maybe that starts with the you know.
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: Looking at your own personal values, we always ask brands what their values are, but if you ask the American population for people to rattle off their own values.
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: People are like I think I know who I am, so I think I know who I am is not knowing who you are.
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: That's like saying a movie based on a true story is a true story.
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: That's not a true story.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: So, like I would start with yourself, I'd start with maybe try to look at your personal core values.
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: This is covered in you know.
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: Return on courage, but like take that in the next year and then go from there.
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you can't get wrong with that.
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: that's beautiful way to wrap this up.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: My friend I mean Ryan, we're big fans Tell our audience how they can find you, follow you, listen to your pod, get the book, connect us on all the things.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: Where do you hang out online, too?
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: I am a LinkedIn guy, I am a Instagram guy, but if you really wanted to track me down, the easiest way is ryanbermancom.
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: You can find the podcast from there, you can find the book from there, and I'm a big fan of you guys too.
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: I love that we were introduced and I'm excited to hear more about Look, we are for good.
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: It's pretty clear what you guys stand for.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: We need more of this in the world here.
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: So I'm so glad we were all connected.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just feel a lot to awaken within me, within this community, with this conversation.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: This is a call to radical courage.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: This is such a time for it and it starts with you.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: It doesn't again have to be these you know monstrous acts.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: They can be tiny and and I, and I just want to encourage everyone who's out there right now to find your community, to find yourself.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: That seems like such a great place to start, ryan.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: I really love that and I think the soul searching part.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: As we come into the new year, get ready, let's fortify ourselves in goodness, in kindness, in service, in generosity.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: We have seen the compounding nature of what that can do when that is put on a rhythm, and so get in that rhythm, friends.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: We are rooting for you.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Ryan Berman, I got to give a one more shout out to sockproblemscom.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: Christmas is coming up.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: If you need a good stocking stuffer literally a sock stuffing coming up.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: If you need a good stocking stuffer, literally a sock stuffing.
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: I can't even say it.
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: I say stocking stuffer, socking stuffers.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, whatever, thank you Great.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Take it from me, but I just think we can all find a way to do good, give good and be the good that we want to see in the world.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Ryan, thanks for awakening our courage, rooting for you in all things.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: Can't believe the call didn't drop.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: I know it's shocking, isn't it we?
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Really really wanted to hang with you this time.
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: Thanks, guys, great to meet you.
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: You got it.