Latest / Beautifully Complex / 341: Building Bravery in Anxious Kids, with Melissa Giglio, Psy.D.

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341: Building Bravery in Anxious Kids, with Melissa Giglio, Psy.D. · Beautifully Complex

0:01
Speaker 1: So often our anxiety starts to interfere with our ability
0:04
Speaker 1: to take those steps of action, and it takes the
0:07
Speaker 1: support from others to really help them feel like they
0:11
Speaker 1: can do things, like they can do things for themselves,
0:14
Speaker 1: and to believe in themselves to do it.
0:18
Speaker 2: Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
0:21
Speaker 2: means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
0:26
Speaker 2: Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
0:30
Speaker 2: this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
0:33
Speaker 2: to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
0:38
Speaker 2: if you want more support, join our free community at
0:42
Speaker 2: hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back everyone to
0:49
Speaker 2: beautifully Complex. I am really excited to have with me
0:53
Speaker 2: today doctor Melissa Giglio, and we're going to talk about bravery,
0:58
Speaker 2: building bravery in kids. How can we support that as
1:03
Speaker 2: the caring adult in their lives? Doctor Melissa, Will you
1:07
Speaker 2: start by letting everybody know who you are and what
1:09
Speaker 2: you do?
1:10
Speaker 1: Wonderful? Yes, happy to thank you for having me so.
1:12
Speaker 1: I'm a clinical child psychologist who is from the States
1:16
Speaker 1: but actually live overseas in Hong Kong now, and I'm
1:20
Speaker 1: a mother of three and have devoted my professional career
1:24
Speaker 1: to supporting kids with anxiety, social anxiety, and selective mutism
1:29
Speaker 1: specifically or kind of my big areas, and then also
1:32
Speaker 1: sporting families who have kids with ADHD and helping support
1:35
Speaker 1: how they parent them in a better way, and advocating
1:38
Speaker 1: with the school's lot.
1:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was telling you before we started recording
1:42
Speaker 2: that I'm really excited to see people specializing in social anxiety.
1:47
Speaker 2: As an individual with social anxiety, I really struggled as
1:51
Speaker 2: a kid, especially a teen and a young adult. It
1:54
Speaker 2: still affects my life now over fifty, but I've learned
1:59
Speaker 2: to manage it more are but it really was not
2:01
Speaker 2: understood at all just a few decades ago. And so
2:05
Speaker 2: I'm so happy that you're helping that population of kids
2:09
Speaker 2: and their families too. Where do you want to start
2:12
Speaker 2: with this conversation around building bravery? Maybe defining what do
2:17
Speaker 2: you mean when you talk about bravery? What does that
2:20
Speaker 2: look like in kids?
2:22
Speaker 1: So when I think about bravery, I'm thinking about helping
2:24
Speaker 1: kids to feel confident and capable to go after things
2:28
Speaker 1: they want to pursue, to be able to use their
2:30
Speaker 1: voice effectively and feel like there is space for them
2:35
Speaker 1: to share it, and it doesn't have to be allowed.
2:38
Speaker 1: A roar doesn't have to be altering their personality, like
2:42
Speaker 1: we don't need a world full of extroverts. But I
2:44
Speaker 1: do want kids to feel that their anxiety doesn't have
2:47
Speaker 1: to interfere with their ability to pursue their dreams and
2:52
Speaker 1: go after what they want.
2:55
Speaker 2: So capable and confident, how do we help kids get them?
3:00
Speaker 2: Especially our neurodivergent kids who get so much negative messaging,
3:04
Speaker 2: they see the differences between them and their peers. They
3:08
Speaker 2: often don't feel capable or confident. So I think the
3:12
Speaker 2: first step here, right is to build that to help
3:14
Speaker 2: them to grow that sense or those two senses.
3:19
Speaker 1: And also to start being able to complement themselves. You know,
3:23
Speaker 1: I think kids with anxiety in particular are great at
3:26
Speaker 1: identifying what they're not doing well or how they are
3:30
Speaker 1: measuring up to other people, as opposed to noticing all
3:33
Speaker 1: their beautiful gifts, what they are able to do really
3:37
Speaker 1: well already and kind of what they want to do,
3:39
Speaker 1: and then setting up a plan for how to get there.
3:41
Speaker 1: You know, so often our anxiety starts to interfere with
3:44
Speaker 1: our ability to take those steps of action, and it
3:47
Speaker 1: takes the support from others to really help them feel
3:52
Speaker 1: like they can do things, like they can do things
3:54
Speaker 1: for themselves, and to believe in themselves to do it.
3:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, what can that look like? Day to day? For peers?
4:00
Speaker 2: For instance, the day to day is chaotic, overwhelming, often struggle,
4:06
Speaker 2: especially for us during the school year. So what might
4:09
Speaker 2: that look like? We're not really asking parents to set
4:12
Speaker 2: aside a lot of time to help kids to build
4:15
Speaker 2: these senses of confidence and capability. So how do we
4:19
Speaker 2: weave it in?
4:21
Speaker 1: I think as parents, one thing we can do right
4:23
Speaker 1: away is to try to slow down just a little bit,
4:25
Speaker 1: like we know that, you know, rushing an anxious kid
4:28
Speaker 1: or a kid with ADHD or any sort of nordivergence
4:31
Speaker 1: doesn't get the best outcome, right as opposed to planning
4:35
Speaker 1: a bit, giving some space for that anticipated difficulty or
4:39
Speaker 1: destractibility or just you know, that bit of anxiety that
4:43
Speaker 1: might be coming with it. And by building that in
4:46
Speaker 1: and building and encouraging statements of like I know you've
4:48
Speaker 1: got this, you know, really helping them see themselves in
4:52
Speaker 1: a positive light, we can start to build that bravery
4:54
Speaker 1: slowly and managing their disappointment too.
4:58
Speaker 2: And I have learned from one of my own kids
5:01
Speaker 2: with anxiety that sometimes when I say I know you've
5:06
Speaker 2: got this, I know you can do this, it feels
5:09
Speaker 2: invalidating for the struggle. How do we find a balance
5:13
Speaker 2: with that?
5:14
Speaker 1: So usually what we'll say is, I know this is hard,
5:17
Speaker 1: but I believe that you can do this. And that's
5:19
Speaker 1: really the difference, because we don't want to invalidate. It's
5:22
Speaker 1: like when people say, don't worry, which is beyond invalidating.
5:25
Speaker 1: Obviously in their own experience, it feels that hard. So
5:29
Speaker 1: we're not negating that it's hard, we're actually recognizing it,
5:32
Speaker 1: but we also have the belief and we know that
5:35
Speaker 1: they can do it and we're going to be there
5:37
Speaker 1: to help. So I think a lot of what kids
5:39
Speaker 1: might feel invalidated about is that they expect me to
5:42
Speaker 1: do this on my own, and that's not what we're saying.
5:45
Speaker 1: We're saying we're on this journey with you. We're not
5:47
Speaker 1: going to do it for you, but we're going to
5:48
Speaker 1: be here to help you and to get you there
5:51
Speaker 1: because we believe in you. And that belief of someone
5:54
Speaker 1: else saying I know you can do this, however, which
5:57
Speaker 1: way is going to be what ultimately helps and reach
6:00
Speaker 1: their goals until we can kind of take off, you know,
6:03
Speaker 1: the training wheels for them. They can feel like they
6:05
Speaker 1: can soar when they have that confidence, but they need
6:08
Speaker 1: a lot from us at first. It's just like when
6:10
Speaker 1: they're really little, Like we don't just say figure it out.
6:12
Speaker 1: We walk them through the steps and we encourage them
6:16
Speaker 1: when they fall to help them get up and try
6:18
Speaker 1: to get Is.
6:19
Speaker 2: There some scaffolding that we might put in place, like
6:23
Speaker 2: how do we support as we're trying to build that confidence,
6:27
Speaker 2: build that sense of capability, help to reduce the anxiety
6:32
Speaker 2: Some my kids still need support as you're talking about
6:35
Speaker 2: even older kids with anxiety. What might that support look like?
6:39
Speaker 2: Can you give us some examples.
6:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much scaffolding that we do with anxiety.
6:43
Speaker 1: Like you know, anxiety is not just throw you in
6:45
Speaker 1: the deep end of the ocean figure it out, like
6:47
Speaker 1: we know that that is not the best way to help.
6:50
Speaker 1: It's helping them go at the pace that they're ready
6:52
Speaker 1: for by having goals for what you want to achieve
6:56
Speaker 1: and then the baby steps to get there and then
6:58
Speaker 1: being okay when you are not moving at the trajectory
7:02
Speaker 1: that we on the outside have decided for you. Right,
7:06
Speaker 1: you have to individualize it to each child. That's why
7:10
Speaker 1: you know the work that we do is so important
7:13
Speaker 1: and that we pace it by the kid. There isn't
7:16
Speaker 1: just this step and then we do this and that.
7:18
Speaker 1: Sometimes it takes longer to get there, and we have
7:21
Speaker 1: to give that support slowly and gradually as they are
7:24
Speaker 1: comfortable in a tolerable way. So we're helping them get
7:28
Speaker 1: comfortable being uncomfortable but not flooded, not overwhelmed, and not
7:32
Speaker 1: feeling bad if they didn't reach that work today, you
7:36
Speaker 1: just weren't ready yet. We're going to reassess to see
7:38
Speaker 1: what we can do next to help us get there
7:40
Speaker 1: so they don't have that disappointment.
7:43
Speaker 2: Talk to us more about a tolerable way. It's something
7:46
Speaker 2: that I think I think about as a just right challenge.
7:50
Speaker 2: We still have to challenge right so that we can
7:52
Speaker 2: grow in this area, but we don't want to push
7:56
Speaker 2: so hard that it's not doable or tolerable. How do
8:00
Speaker 2: we determine on an individual basis where where that sort
8:05
Speaker 2: of line that's probably not a line is.
8:08
Speaker 1: I think the first thing to do as a caregiver
8:10
Speaker 1: and even an educator is to figure where your distressed
8:13
Speaker 1: tolerance is to so the camera that we are, the
8:15
Speaker 1: more that we're kind of feeling good about the steps
8:17
Speaker 1: we're taking, the more we're going to emanate that to
8:20
Speaker 1: the child. And then you have to read them if
8:22
Speaker 1: they're seeming like this is getting to be too hard, pause,
8:26
Speaker 1: and that's the scaffold they to say, Oh, I think
8:28
Speaker 1: we need to take a break right now. This is
8:30
Speaker 1: feeling really difficult. You might not be ready yet. We'll
8:32
Speaker 1: just take a little break and then we can try again.
8:34
Speaker 1: So again, it's validating the journey that you're on and
8:38
Speaker 1: that this isn't easy, because if it was, you could
8:40
Speaker 1: just do it right, but that we're not disappointed by
8:43
Speaker 1: it and that we can handle them feeling a little uncomfortable.
8:47
Speaker 1: But for that reason, the parents also have to believe that,
8:50
Speaker 1: you know, the little discomfort is something that the child
8:53
Speaker 1: can tolerate too, because if they're getting distressed by their
8:56
Speaker 1: child's distressed or frustrated, we're disappointed, that's messaging is going
9:00
Speaker 1: to the child and then that's not helpful.
9:02
Speaker 2: M Yeah, yeah, how do we get them to be
9:06
Speaker 2: willing to try again? This is a problem. I think
9:09
Speaker 2: we see a lot in neurodivergent population because there's a
9:13
Speaker 2: lot of avoidance. I call my own nerudivergent kid a
9:17
Speaker 2: serial avoid like there was always a hard stop if
9:21
Speaker 2: there was even the potential that maybe something would be
9:24
Speaker 2: a little uncomfortable. It took a lot of work in
9:27
Speaker 2: a lot of years to be able to grow in
9:30
Speaker 2: that area. So how do we, again, without pushing too hard,
9:36
Speaker 2: get them at some point to come back and try again.
9:39
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of it is looking at
9:41
Speaker 1: how they're thinking about these challenges too, thinking that, you know,
9:45
Speaker 1: this is something that they could possibly do when they
9:48
Speaker 1: feel confident enough. I think we'll help with that acceptance
9:51
Speaker 1: of how do I take this on? You know, if
9:53
Speaker 1: you're stuck in the I can't world, then it does
9:56
Speaker 1: feel impossible, and they can't remember all the success that
10:00
Speaker 1: they have had and they have tried new things. They
10:03
Speaker 1: have you know, accomplished so many things, and we just
10:07
Speaker 1: have to stop making everything feel like a mountain. We
10:10
Speaker 1: have to make it seem like this is all steps
10:11
Speaker 1: along a bigger journey. And if you change the way
10:15
Speaker 1: you think around challenges in terms of this feels hard,
10:19
Speaker 1: I should really probably try.
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Speaker 3: To do it now, because my my insides are saying avoid,
10:23
Speaker 3: but I know that I can probably take this on
10:26
Speaker 3: and changing that too, and to be like, you know,
10:28
Speaker 3: it feels tricky to me, therefore I need to go
10:30
Speaker 3: do it.
10:31
Speaker 2: What about asking how can I help you? Is that
10:35
Speaker 2: a solid sort of strategy when a kid is having
10:38
Speaker 2: a hard time to maybe determine what they need or
10:43
Speaker 2: what might help to get them over that little home?
10:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think if they can articulate that. I think
10:48
Speaker 1: a lot of times when we're triggered by anxiety, we're
10:50
Speaker 1: not sure what we need. So somebody's just say I'm
10:53
Speaker 1: here with you is enough and then not solving the
10:57
Speaker 1: problem for them, but perhaps offering a few different options
11:02
Speaker 1: can be what's truly helpful, because you know, if you
11:04
Speaker 1: think about when you're anxious, Michael Blink, you're feeling very triggered.
11:09
Speaker 1: You know you're having all these you know, psychosomitic kind
11:11
Speaker 1: of you're having physiological symptoms at this point, and we
11:14
Speaker 1: have to get to a regulated state to then be
11:17
Speaker 1: able to think clearly about what might work. So a
11:21
Speaker 1: lot of times not jumping in right away but also saying, well,
11:23
Speaker 1: you just going to sit here for a minute, calm ourselves down.
11:26
Speaker 1: I'm here with you, you know, really noticing how they're
11:29
Speaker 1: getting that kind of semblance of regulation back and then
11:33
Speaker 1: saying these are a few things that you can try
11:35
Speaker 1: to do would be great.
11:50
Speaker 2: So I'm wondering if there's some like specific activities or
11:54
Speaker 2: conversations or exercises that parents can do with their kids
12:00
Speaker 2: to start to build that sense of confidence and capability
12:05
Speaker 2: more than just kind of noticing when they maybe do
12:08
Speaker 2: a hard thing or something like that. What else is
12:12
Speaker 2: there that we can just kind of weave in again
12:14
Speaker 2: into day to day life that might help to build
12:18
Speaker 2: some grits, some resilience, some confidence.
12:21
Speaker 1: So I think what I the reason that we started
12:24
Speaker 1: the journal actually is because we wanted to empower parents
12:27
Speaker 1: to know how much kind of conversation and reflection needs
12:31
Speaker 1: to happen about every day and not everything has to
12:34
Speaker 1: be a big win, yea, everything has to be this
12:36
Speaker 1: massive accomplishment. It's all the little things. It's going to
12:40
Speaker 1: school in a day when maybe you weren't feeling so great,
12:43
Speaker 1: or there was a test that was coming up. It's
12:45
Speaker 1: maybe having a friend over who you don't know so well.
12:47
Speaker 1: Even if it's at your house and you know, what
12:50
Speaker 1: are we going to talk about? What are we going
12:51
Speaker 1: to do? Or going to someone else's house or going
12:54
Speaker 1: to a new activity just to try it out, even
12:57
Speaker 1: if you're not able to participate, Like there's so many
13:00
Speaker 1: wins that are happening constantly.
13:03
Speaker 2: You know.
13:03
Speaker 1: It could be taking a bite of a new food
13:05
Speaker 1: that you didn't think you wanted to try and you
13:08
Speaker 1: didn't like it, but you tried it. So it's really
13:11
Speaker 1: noticing and helping the child to notice all of the
13:15
Speaker 1: things that they're doing consistently and also what still feels
13:17
Speaker 1: tricky and then what do we do about that? And
13:21
Speaker 1: we created this Bravery Journal that's really about helping this approach,
13:25
Speaker 1: like we want them to think about, reflect and then
13:27
Speaker 1: think about how they're going to approach challenges in a
13:30
Speaker 1: very graduated, sensitive way where the child is really the
13:36
Speaker 1: one who's kind of directing the things that they want
13:39
Speaker 1: to do. Is it Do I want more friends? Do
13:41
Speaker 1: I want to raise my hand in class more? Do
13:44
Speaker 1: I want to be able to try a new sport
13:46
Speaker 1: but I don't know how to play it and everybody
13:48
Speaker 1: else seems like they do. Or how do I join
13:50
Speaker 1: a new activity in the classroom with the people. Those
13:53
Speaker 1: are all the things we want them to be able
13:56
Speaker 1: to do, and they might want to be able to do,
13:58
Speaker 1: but they're not sure they're there yet. And then noticing
14:01
Speaker 1: what went well with it, and also what do we
14:03
Speaker 1: want to work on, so, you know, and talking about
14:06
Speaker 1: our experiences too, we can guide that as parents to
14:09
Speaker 1: talk about what's been hard for us to normalize that
14:12
Speaker 1: we all have bravery to grow. We all have things
14:15
Speaker 1: that have felt tricky, and it takes us to build
14:19
Speaker 1: our brave muscles slowly over time for us to feel
14:23
Speaker 1: more capable of doing harder things.
14:25
Speaker 2: Even normalizing is so powerful, and we don't do it enough.
14:30
Speaker 3: You know.
14:30
Speaker 2: I talk all the time about being really transparent with
14:33
Speaker 2: our kids, speaking out loud some of those processes that
14:37
Speaker 2: just happen in our head. But also you know, being
14:40
Speaker 2: very open about making mistakes, because if we seem perfect
14:45
Speaker 2: to our kids, then we've given them an impossible standard
14:49
Speaker 2: to try to meet, because nobody is perfect. Everybody struggles, right,
14:52
Speaker 2: and so that normalization is so powerful, and I think
14:56
Speaker 2: it helps kids to feel seen too in a way
15:00
Speaker 2: that then builds trust. I think we need a lot
15:03
Speaker 2: of trust when we're trying to help a kid through anxiety, right, Like,
15:07
Speaker 2: anxiety is tricky and it's scary, and I'm wondering too
15:12
Speaker 2: as you were talking, like how much should we really
15:16
Speaker 2: be a part of that? And when is it time
15:18
Speaker 2: for us to sort of step away. I think a
15:22
Speaker 2: lot of parents would ask when am I enabling? If
15:24
Speaker 2: my kid always needs me with them to do hard things,
15:28
Speaker 2: am I enabling? And if so, when and how do
15:32
Speaker 2: I pull back some? So that's a really good question.
15:36
Speaker 1: So if your kid feels like they need you now,
15:39
Speaker 1: then that's what they need at this moment, right, And
15:42
Speaker 1: then the goal is actually to start pulling back a
15:45
Speaker 1: bit the kind of support that you're doing for them.
15:48
Speaker 1: So again, they're kind of being more independent, but you're
15:51
Speaker 1: still there. You're not just leaving them. That again would
15:53
Speaker 1: be that jumping in the deep end and be like
15:55
Speaker 1: I'm out. It's kind of slowly kind of I'm going
15:59
Speaker 1: to stay here.
16:00
Speaker 2: You do it.
16:00
Speaker 1: You've already practiced and making sure they feel prepared and
16:02
Speaker 1: it can still feel hard, but you're there with them,
16:06
Speaker 1: but you're not doing it for them. So you're helping
16:08
Speaker 1: them kind of have that separation, and so much can
16:10
Speaker 1: be done with you know, looking at even our nonverbal
16:13
Speaker 1: cues to our kids about how we might be giving off.
16:16
Speaker 1: I need to shield you, I need to you know,
16:19
Speaker 1: you need to hold my hand to do these things
16:20
Speaker 1: as opposed to you.
16:21
Speaker 3: Got it.
16:22
Speaker 1: I'm right here behind you and tolerating that discomfort. And
16:24
Speaker 1: then I want to be able to hear you from
16:27
Speaker 1: you know, a few steps back. Oh, you did such
16:28
Speaker 1: a great job of hearing you. I could hear you
16:30
Speaker 1: all the way over here, and then the next thing.
16:32
Speaker 1: So everything's kind of graduated, but it has to be
16:35
Speaker 1: at the pace the kid is comfortable with and you
16:38
Speaker 1: have to be okay with them being a little uncomfortable
16:40
Speaker 1: with it. I think that's where we tend to rush
16:43
Speaker 1: as caregivers, is we have trouble when they're starting to
16:47
Speaker 1: feel a little uncomfortable as opposed to it is uncomfortable
16:50
Speaker 1: because it's a little different and it feels hard. But
16:52
Speaker 1: you've already done it with me here, which means I
16:54
Speaker 1: know you can do it with me right behind you
16:56
Speaker 1: here and then taking steps back. So that's that's how
17:00
Speaker 1: we stop the enabling. Enabling is when we just do
17:02
Speaker 1: it for them. Well, I'll just do it right, And
17:04
Speaker 1: that's any of the messages you can't handle it, as
17:06
Speaker 1: opposed to I'm going to help you get there, and
17:10
Speaker 1: I'm here with you on this journey and I'm not
17:12
Speaker 1: just leaving you. That's when we get the panic from
17:14
Speaker 1: kids about like I can't do this alone, and they're
17:17
Speaker 1: not alone. You know. Part of being a parent is
17:20
Speaker 1: helping them to grow slowly until they feel capable enough
17:24
Speaker 1: to do everything on their own over time, and the
17:27
Speaker 1: rate at which kids can do it is dependent on
17:29
Speaker 1: the kid.
17:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, every kid is so different, and I think every
17:34
Speaker 2: person with anxiety is so different. It shows up in
17:36
Speaker 2: so many different ways. And you know, I know that
17:40
Speaker 2: a lot of times we want to push that tolerance
17:44
Speaker 2: to treat anxiety, to help reduce anxiety, and at times
17:50
Speaker 2: I think when we get frustrated as a parent or
17:53
Speaker 2: a caregiver, then we lose that ability to show up
17:59
Speaker 2: in the way that they need us to to be
18:02
Speaker 2: that comfort, rather than you know, we show up very invalidating.
18:07
Speaker 2: My own spouse has not known anxiety a day in
18:10
Speaker 2: his life, I don't think, And so for years it
18:13
Speaker 2: was I don't understand why you can't just you know
18:16
Speaker 2: whatever to me or to one of our kids, and
18:20
Speaker 2: how do we help parents who don't get it, who
18:23
Speaker 2: really just haven't experienced what that feels like, to be
18:28
Speaker 2: able to connect with it in a way that helps
18:30
Speaker 2: them show up in the way their kid needs.
18:34
Speaker 1: I think education about, you know, first, what anxiety truly is,
18:38
Speaker 1: and I think that's hard for someone who would never
18:40
Speaker 1: really experienced it, who just goes through life just doing it.
18:43
Speaker 1: Having that understanding of what's happening to the person, and
18:47
Speaker 1: then understanding that we all want the same thing. Our
18:50
Speaker 1: goal is to help them be the best they can
18:52
Speaker 1: be themselves, not what the standard is for every kid,
18:56
Speaker 1: what their best is. That's all we want. We want
18:58
Speaker 1: our kids to be happy, wealthy, and balanced and feeling
19:03
Speaker 1: like barriers aren't always in the way, they're not creating barriers.
19:06
Speaker 1: And I feel like when we have that understanding about
19:08
Speaker 1: what anxiety is and that we are on the same
19:11
Speaker 1: page of wanting the same things for our kids to
19:13
Speaker 1: do the best that they can for themselves that's our goal,
19:16
Speaker 1: then we can help with the understanding of evaluating behavior
19:20
Speaker 1: for what it is. This is their anxiety reacting right now,
19:23
Speaker 1: so you getting mad at them isn't going to be
19:25
Speaker 1: helping that anxiety right now? So what should we do
19:26
Speaker 1: instead do the opposite. Let's be really calm and just say, oh,
19:30
Speaker 1: looks like you're having a moment. I'm going to give
19:32
Speaker 1: you a minute to calm down and not pretty added
19:35
Speaker 1: pressure on it, and then that can help the parent
19:38
Speaker 1: also regulate themselves to say, Okay, I need to go
19:40
Speaker 1: at this a different way. And what you said before
19:43
Speaker 1: was really good. It was about trust and so much
19:46
Speaker 1: work as a therapist is building trust with kids, and
19:50
Speaker 1: I could never do exposures with children to get them
19:54
Speaker 1: to meet those goals if we didn't have trust. And
19:56
Speaker 1: trust means you are fair, You are rea their cues
20:00
Speaker 1: and understanding, and they know that they're not alone with
20:03
Speaker 1: this and it's never going to be a change in
20:05
Speaker 1: plan for what we have discussed. We have to be
20:10
Speaker 1: fair to maintain trush, and they have to know that
20:13
Speaker 1: I know that they can do this and I'm going
20:15
Speaker 1: to be with them on the journey to do it.
20:17
Speaker 1: And if we need to backstep, I normalize that that
20:19
Speaker 1: that's totally fine, that's what they are today, and then
20:22
Speaker 1: we keep knowing that we're pushing forward and that's what
20:25
Speaker 1: helps I think so much as a therapist as a
20:27
Speaker 1: parent it's a bit harder because we know they can
20:29
Speaker 1: do it. The frustration comes from our discomfort of them
20:33
Speaker 1: not being able to, and some of that might be
20:35
Speaker 1: our own anxiety about you know what if they can't
20:38
Speaker 1: do these things as opposed to I need to help
20:40
Speaker 1: them get there, like any coach or any teacher. It
20:43
Speaker 1: takes time. I need to be positive about it. Critical
20:47
Speaker 1: doesn't work for anxious kids. That's the opposite of what
20:49
Speaker 1: these kids need. They need nurturing and they need space.
20:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, pressure is so disregulating, and so if we add
20:57
Speaker 2: pressure to and already dysregulated nervous system, then we've lost
21:02
Speaker 2: cognitive function, reasoning, rational thinking, right, all of these things,
21:08
Speaker 2: and so it doesn't help at all. I love, though,
21:10
Speaker 2: that you brought the word fairness into it too in
21:13
Speaker 2: that relationship, because I think we do often as caregivers
21:18
Speaker 2: when we get really frustrated, then sometimes we start throwing
21:23
Speaker 2: things out that we don't really mean. We escalate, right,
21:26
Speaker 2: and then you know, it doesn't feel fair because it
21:29
Speaker 2: feels like the needle is constantly moving for them. And
21:33
Speaker 2: so that's such a good point that we really have
21:36
Speaker 2: to let them know what to expect and for our
21:39
Speaker 2: nerd virgin kids. We have to be very clear about
21:43
Speaker 2: what to expect, to really define it, and then we
21:47
Speaker 2: have to hold to that because that's what's going to
21:50
Speaker 2: help them with anxiety.
21:52
Speaker 1: So at first we will do that, we will hold
21:54
Speaker 1: the plan. When they're getting tons of confidence, we can
21:57
Speaker 1: then be more flexible with the plan right not right away.
22:01
Speaker 1: And I think that's the important thing for parents is
22:03
Speaker 1: the fairness is like it's a process. You can't change
22:07
Speaker 1: the plan before they're ready. When they can tolerate it,
22:10
Speaker 1: we can. And I think that always helps parents too
22:12
Speaker 1: with that understanding. Is that like this is not for effort, yes,
22:16
Speaker 1: because their argument is we can't plan everything, and you
22:19
Speaker 1: totally agree, but right now, this is what needs to
22:22
Speaker 1: happen to reach our cole mm hmm, and that's okay.
22:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you know all the time, you need
22:28
Speaker 2: a comfort level before you can challenge. A child needs
22:32
Speaker 2: a comfort level before they're going to be able to
22:34
Speaker 2: be willing to go with you down that road that's challenging.
22:39
Speaker 2: Talk to us a little more about how the journal
22:40
Speaker 2: works for those who are listening. Is it for younger kids,
22:44
Speaker 2: is it for teens both either? Is it something that
22:48
Speaker 2: the parent does with the child tell us about how
22:51
Speaker 2: it works.
22:52
Speaker 1: So it's called the Bravery Grows Journal, and it's kind
22:55
Speaker 1: of based off of our children's book that we did,
22:56
Speaker 1: which is really targeted for kids with social anxiety and
23:00
Speaker 1: mutism called Bravery Grows. But the journal is about giving
23:03
Speaker 1: that reflection and activities, and the kids are usually around
23:06
Speaker 1: I would say they could get the journal around age
23:09
Speaker 1: four and they can use it up till Pavely age ten.
23:12
Speaker 1: When they're younger, they obviously need the parents to really
23:14
Speaker 1: be helping them more. But there's a lot of education
23:18
Speaker 1: in the back of it for parents for how to
23:20
Speaker 1: talk about certain things, how to complete an exposure, what's
23:24
Speaker 1: the purpose behind some of the activities where the child
23:28
Speaker 1: is really starting to learn how to praise themselves and
23:31
Speaker 1: notice what they did well so they can then have
23:33
Speaker 1: a record of it and go back to it and
23:35
Speaker 1: then it builds. It also has mantras for every month
23:39
Speaker 1: in it, which I think is another important thing for parents.
23:41
Speaker 1: You know, we want our kids to internalize the positive
23:44
Speaker 1: language that we might say occasionally, but we really want
23:48
Speaker 1: it to be something that's repeated, which is, you know,
23:50
Speaker 1: I'm supported, I have love, I'm flexible, which We know
23:54
Speaker 1: anxious kids aren't always the most flexible at first, but
23:57
Speaker 1: the goal is for them to learn how to be
23:59
Speaker 1: more flexible and be able to adapt. So all of
24:02
Speaker 1: these things are woven in in a very child friendly,
24:05
Speaker 1: you know, really pretty journal for kids. And you know,
24:08
Speaker 1: we have a girls this is kind of a more
24:10
Speaker 1: female journal. Now it's flowers and different things. There's a
24:13
Speaker 1: boy one that we're going to be putting out and
24:15
Speaker 1: hopefully someday in a teen one. It's different for the teens,
24:19
Speaker 1: they need to have their own kind of private writings
24:22
Speaker 1: in there and then review. So you know, if we'd
24:24
Speaker 1: start with step one is the younger one.
24:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we will link that up for everyone in
24:30
Speaker 2: the show notes. Tell everyone where they can find you online, and.
24:35
Speaker 1: Find me online at Bravemightyminds dot com. The journal and
24:39
Speaker 1: the book are both available on Amazon and some other retailers.
24:42
Speaker 1: For the Braver Ghos book, the journal is on Amazon
24:46
Speaker 1: and available now and then yeah Brave Minded Minds or
24:49
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Bravery Grows or doctor wisigelio. That's where
24:54
Speaker 1: I am.
24:55
Speaker 2: And again I'll leak everything up in the show notes
24:57
Speaker 2: at Parenting ADHD and Autism dot com Thank you so much,
25:01
Speaker 2: doctor Melissa for sharing your expertise around anxiety and building
25:06
Speaker 2: bravery in our kids. It was a pleasure to talk
25:09
Speaker 2: with you.
25:09
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me really appreciate it.
25:12
Speaker 2: I will see everyone next time. Take good care. I
25:16
Speaker 2: see you. You're doing hard and meaningful work and you
25:20
Speaker 2: don't have to do it alone. If you found this
25:22
Speaker 2: episode helpful, share it with someone who needs it and
25:26
Speaker 2: leave a quick review so others can find this support too.
25:30
Speaker 2: When you're ready for next steps, the Regulated Kids Project
25:33
Speaker 2: is here with the tools, coaching, and community to help
25:37
Speaker 2: you raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get more info
25:42
Speaker 2: at regulated kids dot com.