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The 36-Year Cancer Fight That Led To A Nobel Prize · Bloomberg Intelligence

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm Pim Fox.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa Abramowitz. Each day we
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  Speaker 1: bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for
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  Speaker 1: you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store
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  Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. We
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: are broadcasting from the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studios and it
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: is a pleasure to welcome the most recent recipient of
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  Speaker 1: the Nobel Prize in Medicine. James Patrick Allison, perhaps better
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  Speaker 1: known as Dr Jim Allison, joins us here in our
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  Speaker 1: eleven Trio studios. Dr Allison, thank you very much for
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  Speaker 1: being here and congratulations on your Nobel Prize. And I'm
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  Speaker 1: wondering if you could just describe before you tell us
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  Speaker 1: about how you play the harmonica, and you know you've
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  Speaker 1: got a musical side that I think it's pretty interesting.
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  Speaker 1: When did you learn that you had won the Nobel
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  Speaker 1: Prize along with your counterpart in Japan? Yesterday morning? My
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  Speaker 1: son called me about five thirty and so, Dad, you
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  Speaker 1: did it, you know, And and uh, I thought, what
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  Speaker 1: what I was just waking up, you know. And then
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  Speaker 1: uh then a call came in from Sweden after that
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  Speaker 1: and uh, you know, confirming it. So it's rather than
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  Speaker 1: nice that my son was first though. Tell me, uh, well,
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  Speaker 1: congratulations again, Dr Alison. Can you just give us a
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  Speaker 1: sense of how hard it was to do the research
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  Speaker 1: and persevere with it when a lot of people thought
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  Speaker 1: that your field of immuno oncology was voodoo science. Yeah
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  Speaker 1: it was. It was you know, voodoo or snake oil
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  Speaker 1: or various terms were used. You know, I just didn't
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  Speaker 1: pay much attention to that was just background noise. I
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  Speaker 1: focused on really understanding mechanisms of how the immune system
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  Speaker 1: worked until I had the details down and could just
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  Speaker 1: knew exactly what I thought, at least exactly what we
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  Speaker 1: needed to do. So what is this amano oncology. Well,
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  Speaker 1: it's it's using your immune system, either targeting it or
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  Speaker 1: in my case, just unleashing it to attack cancer cells.
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  Speaker 1: Because you've got these cells called T cells that go
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  Speaker 1: all around your body and they're kind of the soldiers
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  Speaker 1: of the immune system and they recognize things that ought
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  Speaker 1: not to be their virus infected cells or cancer cells
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  Speaker 1: or whatever, recognize them Um, it's a wonderfully complex and
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  Speaker 1: interesting process that I've been working on since nine two,
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  Speaker 1: and um, you know, it's it's just a beautiful thing,
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  Speaker 1: and we finally learned how to manipulate it, to direct
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  Speaker 1: it to ourselves to actually attack cancer. Dr Allison as
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  Speaker 1: the professor and also Chair of Immunology and Executive Director
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  Speaker 1: of Immunotherapy at the MD Anderson Cancer Center, can you, uh,
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  Speaker 1: maybe describe how your discovery can not only apply to
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  Speaker 1: specific cancers that people may have, but for the whole
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  Speaker 1: understanding of how to fight cancer when it's diagnosed. Yes, well, well,
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  Speaker 1: this this approach is radically different from most approaches to
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  Speaker 1: cancer theory, which target the cancer cell. This has the
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  Speaker 1: therapy itself has nothing to do with the cancer cell
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  Speaker 1: at all. It has to do with manipulating the immune
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  Speaker 1: system just generally, so potentially it could work against any
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  Speaker 1: kind of cancer, at least when I conceived of this
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  Speaker 1: in the mid nineties, that was the idea. Since you're
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  Speaker 1: not treating cancer, you're treating the immune system, it could
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  Speaker 1: work against anything, and it turned out that that was
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  Speaker 1: not quite right. But but it works very well well
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  Speaker 1: against melanoma, for example, Patients that just get a a
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  Speaker 1: single round of treatment with with the drug I developed,
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  Speaker 1: and we're live ten years. I mean they're basically cured.
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  Speaker 1: Their live ten years after therapy and when added to
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  Speaker 1: a second drug that that Hanjo played a major role
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  Speaker 1: in discovering. The response rates about sixty and we don't
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  Speaker 1: know how long they're going. But it's been approved by
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  Speaker 1: the FDA now not only for melanoma, but for lung cancer,
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  Speaker 1: kidney cancer, bladder cancer, Hodgkinson and Foma, had neck cancer,
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  Speaker 1: and the list goes on and on, merken cell cancering, um,
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  Speaker 1: you know, so it is broadly applicable. But unfortunately, what
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  Speaker 1: we've learned in the last few years since these approval
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  Speaker 1: started coming in is there are cancers that don't response.
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  Speaker 1: There's a clear blastoma and pancreatic cancer, and the response
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  Speaker 1: rates and other cancers are um. You know, it's not everybody.
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  Speaker 1: It's somewhere or in combinations up to our job now
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  Speaker 1: hours to get that up as close to a percent
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  Speaker 1: as we can and in as many kinds of cancer.
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  Speaker 1: And that's the goal of the minotherapy platform and INMDI
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  Speaker 1: Anderson that that run together with Dr pad biny Sharma,
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  Speaker 1: who's an oncologist that yes, yes, Dr Allison, I'm wondering,
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  Speaker 1: You've been working on this particular type of cancer treatment
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  Speaker 1: for nearly four decades, and over that time, I'm wondering,
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  Speaker 1: do you feel like we are much closer to a
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  Speaker 1: fundamental breakthrough to make cancer less fatal? Yes, I think
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  Speaker 1: we're are, and i think we're already there in some
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  Speaker 1: kinds of cancer. As I said, six melanoma patients. When
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  Speaker 1: we started this work, the median survival after diagnosis of
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  Speaker 1: metastatic melanoma was eleven months. It was basically a death sentence,
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  Speaker 1: and there were no drugs that had ever had any
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  Speaker 1: impact on that at all until we came along. And now,
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  Speaker 1: like I said, twenty percent of people alive ten years
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  Speaker 1: after treatment, and you know even more when you're using combinations.
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  Speaker 1: So uh, but there's you know, so this is a
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  Speaker 1: fundamental shift and how to treat cancer. Again, you don't
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  Speaker 1: treat the cancer, You treat the immune system and unleash
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  Speaker 1: it to go after the cancer on its own. And
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  Speaker 1: so this is going to be I would predict, not
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  Speaker 1: not replace chemotherapy and radiation and things like that, but together.
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  Speaker 1: That's the unique thing about immunotherapy is that it can
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  Speaker 1: be used together with these other kinds of therapy to
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  Speaker 1: improve their their efficacy. And the one thing that one
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  Speaker 1: key thing that the immune therapy is offered that the
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  Speaker 1: others don't is that once you've got a T cell,
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  Speaker 1: you've got it for the rest of your life. Just
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  Speaker 1: real quick, Which companies you're working on to develop actual applications?
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  Speaker 1: A lot several companies, but key and helping us developers
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  Speaker 1: a little company called Meta Acts. It's since been by
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  Speaker 1: Bristol Myers squib so we do a lot of work
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  Speaker 1: with them, but we also work with a number of
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  Speaker 1: other companies. Dr jam Melissa, congratulations, Thank you so much
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  Speaker 1: for joining us. Truly a pleasure to speak with you
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  Speaker 1: and thank you for what you do. A lot of
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  Speaker 1: people I know are very grateful. Dr Jim Allison, Professor
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  Speaker 1: in Chair of Immunology at the MD Anderson Cancer Center
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  Speaker 1: in Houston, also the winner of the Nobel Prize for Medicine,
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  Speaker 1: Thank you so much and really an inspiration with respect
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  Speaker 1: the perseverance for nearly four decades on something that a
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  Speaker 1: lot of people dismissed. Really a pleasure having you here.
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  Speaker 1: We are broadcasting from the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studios. This
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  Speaker 1: is the time we talk about trade. And indeed, after
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  Speaker 1: yesterday's public airing of the details of the U S
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  Speaker 1: m C A much more and much more. Yes, you
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  Speaker 1: have new concessions for US farmers, new rules for digital commerce,
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  Speaker 1: and rules for US content for automobiles. Here to help
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  Speaker 1: us understand the trade agreement is Duncan Would, director of
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  Speaker 1: the Mexico Institute at the Wilson Center, and he joins
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  Speaker 1: us now from Washington. Do you see Duncan Wood, thank
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  Speaker 1: you very much for being with us. What can you
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  Speaker 1: tell us about the details of this agreement and what
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  Speaker 1: do you believe the ramifications of the agreement will be
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  Speaker 1: for all three of the economies Mexico, the United States,
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  Speaker 1: and Canada. Well, let's say, yeah, that's a pretty big question,
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  Speaker 1: considering the economy is to combine, their trade is more
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  Speaker 1: than fort of one point four billion trillion dollars UM.
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  Speaker 1: But what I can say is that I was happy
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  Speaker 1: to see a continuation of general principles of NaSTA UM
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  Speaker 1: in this new agreement. I think that we have actually
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  Speaker 1: ensured that the free trade environment in North America will
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  Speaker 1: continue pretty much across the board. UM. There are some
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  Speaker 1: areas where the Trump administration was successful in in winning
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  Speaker 1: concessions from his partners. Now to say that, obviously, you know,
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  Speaker 1: we talked a lot about the dairy industry in Canada,
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  Speaker 1: but we've also talked about the weakening of Chapter eleven
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  Speaker 1: investor they dispute mechanisms UM and you know, and also
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  Speaker 1: we've we've seen you know, this insistence on higher regional
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  Speaker 1: content in the auto sector as well as um A
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  Speaker 1: content a minimum content level of forty percent coming from
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  Speaker 1: factories where works makes sixteen an hour or more. So,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I think that perhaps the most interesting element
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  Speaker 1: of all of this is to say that business is
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  Speaker 1: going to accept it. Business is going to celebrate the
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  Speaker 1: fact that they now have legal certainty that investments can
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  Speaker 1: continue in the region, and they're going to work with
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  Speaker 1: the rules of the of the new agreement to try
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  Speaker 1: to deepen the integration that we've already seen in North America.
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  Speaker 1: So I take it as a positive step forward. It's
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  Speaker 1: far from perfect as an agreement, but which free trade
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  Speaker 1: agreement is um and you know, this is one thing
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  Speaker 1: that I think that you know, as we read be
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  Speaker 1: the text and great. So we're finding that despite all
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  Speaker 1: of the little irritance that are still there, um, and
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  Speaker 1: some precedents that have been set which are uncomfortable for
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  Speaker 1: free traders. It's a step in the right direction, all right.
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  Speaker 1: One thing that I'm struggling with is does this agreement
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  Speaker 1: move more toward freer trade with fewer barriers or more
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  Speaker 1: towards sort of more protectionist approach. And I'm thinking in
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  Speaker 1: particular the sixteen dollars an hour provision, which will effectively
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  Speaker 1: either forced Mexico to dramatically increase pay or else produce
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  Speaker 1: things in the US more. Yeah. I mean that you've
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  Speaker 1: identified one of the clearest examples of a less free
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  Speaker 1: trade approach. UM. And uh, you know, I think that
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  Speaker 1: that's that's the thing that will stand out for for
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  Speaker 1: a lot of people. UM. We also have to recognize
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  Speaker 1: that the you know, the this new agreement doesn't resolve
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  Speaker 1: the problems over Section to Study two on aluminum feel. Um,
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  Speaker 1: it doesn't really resolve the dispute over the potential application
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  Speaker 1: of Section two study to on or the automobile sector.
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  Speaker 1: Because whilst Canada and Mexico have carved out UM an
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  Speaker 1: exemption from that up to two points six million vehicles
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  Speaker 1: a year UM, that they're still going to be subject
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  Speaker 1: to it, which you know goes against the principles of
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  Speaker 1: free trade. However, you know, on the positive side, I
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  Speaker 1: would say this, what we've seen is we've seen a
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  Speaker 1: modernization of a of an agreement that you know, is
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  Speaker 1: more than two decades old, that was considered to be
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  Speaker 1: an old Lady of free trade agreement. We've included new
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  Speaker 1: issues so that the new agreement applies to areas of
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  Speaker 1: digital trade, intellectual property. You know, there's some interesting work
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  Speaker 1: there on on financial services, and so these are I mean,
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  Speaker 1: it looks much more like a twenty first century free
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  Speaker 1: trade agreement than the NAFTA did, and I would say
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  Speaker 1: that that extends the reach of free trade in the
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  Speaker 1: North American region. Can this agreement or parts of this
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  Speaker 1: agreement be used in future negotiations with China? I think
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  Speaker 1: that's certainly. Um. What's what's behind a lot of the year,
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  Speaker 1: at least some of the language that's been there, um.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, the most obvious stand out here is that
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  Speaker 1: is the question of currency manipulation. There was no reason
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  Speaker 1: to include currency manipulation provisions in a NAFTA. Biggest neither
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  Speaker 1: Canada nor Mexico engage in that kind of behavior. But
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  Speaker 1: clearly the United States wanted to establish a precedent whereby
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  Speaker 1: they could take this language to any potential um future
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  Speaker 1: free tech trade deal. And you know, the Japanese have
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  Speaker 1: already um signals that they're nervous about that, they know
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  Speaker 1: that that's coming to their for their their negotiations with
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  Speaker 1: the United States. And of course this set the president
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  Speaker 1: for China in particular, Dungan, I'm struck by the fact
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  Speaker 1: that you think that disagreement will be good for US
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  Speaker 1: energy companies. Can you explain? Yeah, I think that it
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  Speaker 1: is that it's good for US energy companies because, first
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  Speaker 1: of all, Mexico was excluded from the original provisions energy
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  Speaker 1: provisions of the NAFTA UM and you know it, it's
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  Speaker 1: specifically required that it was excluded from the free trade
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  Speaker 1: of of of oil and gas because Mexico's system at
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  Speaker 1: the time was a closed system UM. Since two thousands thirteen,
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  Speaker 1: Mexico has opened up its oil and gas sector. Mexico
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  Speaker 1: now has a market oriented energy sector and that has
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: been under threat with the With the new government's coming
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  Speaker 1: into power in December in Mexico, the government of Andersman,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: while lops Overdorf, who was opposed to private investment in
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: the oil and gas sector. But what this treaty ensures
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: is two things. One that there will continue to be
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  Speaker 1: the free trade in molecules and electrons across the North
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: American space. And to that Chapter eleven um provisions in
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  Speaker 1: in other words, investor states dispute settlement mechanisms will apply
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  Speaker 1: continue to apply to the energy sector, in particular to
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  Speaker 1: oil and gas. And so that gives a lot of
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: the investors American companies that are invested in Mexico, that
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  Speaker 1: gives them legal certainty which they wouldn't have had otherwise.
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  Speaker 1: Duncan Wood, thank you so much for joining us and
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  Speaker 1: for analyzing uh the agreement to in such a short
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: period of time to give us such a deep insight.
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  Speaker 1: Duncan Wood is director of the Mexico Institute at the
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Wilson Center in Washington, d C. The topic now is
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: student loans and helping us here to understand this is
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Brendan Coughlin. He is the president of consumer Lending at
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Citizens Bank. Brendon, thanks very much for coming in. Maybe
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  Speaker 1: just set this stage, because you know, I keep hearing
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of numbers like one and a half trillion
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: dollars in student loan debt. But the student loan market
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: includes private debt, it also includes debt that in many
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: cases is guaranteed by the federal government. Can you explain
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: the marketplace and what we're facing. Yeah, absolutely, and thanks
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  Speaker 1: for having me here today for what's I think one
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: of the country's biggest challenges. The student loan um that
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: did just cross one point five trillion. It's growing at
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: about twice the pace of inflation, and projections put it
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: out at three trillion um in in just another ten years.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: So just a very alarming situation that we're dealing with
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: here that the country is going to be living with
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: for a long time. You are right, when you get
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: a new loan to go first to go to school,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: about of the time that that loan is issued by
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: the federal government through a variety of programs, and about
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: seven percent of the time it's issued by a bank
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: which has full underwriting UH and an assessment of your
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: ability to repay, versus the federal government, which which has
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: very very limited underwriting. So you just put out a
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: survey where you talked to a number of younger individuals
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: in America about their student debt loads. Regret is sort
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: of laced into every result of this survey, just to
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: regret that they incurred so much debt. I'm just wondering,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: apart from going over some of the details of the
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: actual survey, what could they have done to ameliorate some
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: of these uh regrets. Yeah, you know, this is it's
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: it's highly emotional when when you're entering school and the
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: discussion between parents and children often is not detailed enough,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: and folks don't understand what they're truly signing up for,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: and they're not having the hard conversation of return on investment.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: And as you make your choices, whether it's which school
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: or how much you're gonna pay, or how to pay
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: for it, and really all of it comes back to
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: that doing your homework and being more prepared so you
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: make these decisions eyes wide open um going into school.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: How many smaller or I guess for profit universities do
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: you think would shutter if people did more of this
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: sort of risk reward but benefit analysis. Yeah, there's certainly
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: a handful of decent for profit schools, but but by
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: and large, many of them would be in real, real challenge.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: If you looked at the return on investment on some
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: of these, and and did an assessment of the tuition
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: you'd pay versus the um the salary, and the graduation
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: rates coming out. And keep in mind the graduation rate
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: across the entire country, including four year public and private institutions,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: is right around fifty. So most of our issue in
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: the country is that these kids are not matriculating to graduation. UM.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: When you do get to graduation, you have a much
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: higher success rate of um of of of getting a
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: good job, but it's particularly exacerbated in the for profit sector.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: For sure. There was a report there is a report
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: from the Brookings Institute about student loans, and one of
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: their conclusions is that by three forty percent of borrowers
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: made default on their student loans. We're talking about five
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: hundred and sixty billion dollars in unpaid debt. Does that
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: make sense to you? Well, so, the data, as as
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: we kicked off here, with most of the debt being
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: issued by the federal government, the data is not um
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: readily publicly available UM to digest in a way that
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: makes that easily answerable. But that does seem consistent with
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: all the information I've heard UM and and in the
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: federal portfolios, customers are considered performing even if they're on
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: a um A plan to repay, which could be as
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: little as a five dollar a month payment. So if
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: you owe seven hundred and you're paying five dollars a
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: month from from a statistical perspective, that's not considered um
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: in default. But you know, that's pretty darn close to
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: default in my book. So we've got a lot of
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: customers out there in the marketplace and the federal program
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: that are not paying back. You know, if you juxtapose
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: that against the banks, our default rate is about two
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: percent as a as an industry, Citizens is at below
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: one percent. So it's a very very stark difference between
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: bank loans and government loans. All right, I want to
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: get this more clear. So Brendan, you're the president of
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Consumer Letting It Citizens Bank. We know that student loans
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: have become an increasing problem as its surges in the
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: total outstanding and people talk about how to drag on
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: the economy. Basically, these young people have so much debt
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: they can't save anything, and they can't spend on a house,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: and they're they're they're postponing their family formations and not
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: having kids because they're really expensive. Um. One thing that
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering from you, how does a private organization play
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: in this space ace and profit from this space at
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: a time when there is such this this huge weight
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: out there that is sort of weighing down everything. Yeah. Look,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: we we can't control the entire environment. Obviously. The biggest
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: issue here is the ever increasing tuition costs across the country,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: and it's going faster than inflation. So the only place
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: that families are finding their way to pay for it
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: is either you know, postponing retirement or or taking out debt.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: What we can do is is inside of the framework
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: of a bank. We've done a couple of things, so
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: we put a more affordable option out there than most
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: of the government programs, at least the ones that aren't subsidized.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: So when you go to school, we will give you
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: a rate that's better, and we will underwrite you to
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: make sure we think you have a reasonably good chance
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: to pay the bank back, which is good for us
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: in the student hold on second, I want to want
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: to press you on that. So in other words, you decide,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: is this person competent? Are they studying something that's actually
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: going to give them some leg up when they go
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: try to apply for a job. Are those some of
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: the things that you look at. We don't. We don't
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: look at their their intended degree. Um, there's a lot
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: of risk of redlining and unfair treatment on things like that.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: But we do look at their income. Their parents are
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: typically co signing, which is forcing this conversation and the
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: family and the household around is this the right decision
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: for us? We both have some skin in the game.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Let's make sure so all those things lead to a
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: better and more informed decision, which dramatically improves the ability
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: to repay for the student at the end of it.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: We've also introduced a refinance program when you come out
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: of school, which uh most folks surprisingly don't even know
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: about yet, um and spending the market for five or
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: six years. When you get out of school, if you
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: get a job, the first thing you should do is
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: look to trade in your old student loans because you
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: got underwritten when you're eighteen, living with your parents with
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: no credit score, and now you're gainfully employed, you've built
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: some credit and hopefully you're on the way to moving
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: out for mom and dad. Right, your profile could not
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: be more different than when you got that loan, and
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: we've been saving students about two and fifty dollars a
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: month on their student loan debt, which gets back to
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: your question around accelerating your ability to buy a home, household, formation,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: getting married, having kids. Now, that refinancing that you just
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: spoke about, and I give you about twenty seconds here,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: that refinancing could be for private student debt, but it
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: can also be for public for federal student debt. Right.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: That's that's exactly correct. Consumers make no distinction between the two,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: and um, we we will refinance either one of them
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: is in most of the industry that's in this business
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: will as well. You know, one of the stats the
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: survey put out was about sixty percent of students have
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: buyer's remorse on their decisions. So either they wish they
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: went to a less expensive school or in some cases
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: they wish they didn't go to school at all. So
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: once you've made that decision, it is what it is,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: but you can take control of your finances, refinance it
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: and make it more affordable for you. Brendan Coughlin, thank
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: you so much for being here. Brendan Coughland is President
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: of Consumer deposits and lending for Citizens Bank in Providence,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Rode Island. The leader of Italy's Five Star movement, Luigi
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: de Mayo, has warned that Italy's government will not retreat
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: quote a millimeter from its spending plans amid pressures from
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: the European Union. Here to tell us more is Alberto Gallo,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: partner portfolio manager for Algebras Macro Credit fund at Algebras,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: and he's also a Bloomberg opinion column this and he
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: joins us, Now, Alberto, what if you make of Mr
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Demio's statement? It looks a lot like the altitude the
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: type of posture that the former finance minister in Greece,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: you know, Mr Barro Farkas had versus Europe, so very confrontational. Um.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: And it is the opposite to his coalition partner Saldini
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: from the Northern League. So you have a government with
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: two parties. One has been voted in the south of
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: the country. Um. The other one has been voted in
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: the north, which is reached sure and more industrial. Um.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: You know. Mr Demira has been falling behind in contensus
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: since the coalition started in Italy, while Mr Sylvenia has
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: been gaining, so I think this is a competition to
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: raise the voice against Europe, to try to gain back
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: some votes. There is an internal dynamic between Mr. Demia Mr.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Slvina are trying to raise for more consensus. However, the
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: you know, some of the business components of the country
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: are feeling the pain. As you know, yield go up
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: and investment drives up. So we you know, we think
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: that Indian Mrs Slvinia will win more consensus and this
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: could bring a more rational stand to the government to
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: the debate with Europe. So I guess you know, there's
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: the internal the deliberations about the votes that the Five
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Star Party could pick up. These are there's the external
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: factor here, which is exactly as you're mentioning Albert Alberto,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: the yields rising and if you look at ten year
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Italian yields now rising to the highest since March. I'm wondering,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: from your vantage point, are yields poised to go much higher?
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: In part because the European Union is fed up with
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: the Italian drama and it's withdrawing from its stimulus program. Anyway,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: this is it's hard to understand and predict the dynamic
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: of every tweet. You know, of every statement generally the
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: consensus and you know very well this from the US
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: administration as well. I have no idea what you're talking about.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Other too, the consensus is very very short. You know,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: US investors have gone into emerging market, but no one,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: no one likes Europe. So there is a contents tous
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: saying that Yales would go to for four or five percent.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Having said that, the two point four percent number for
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: the budget deficitit is just point one percent higher than
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: last year. So you know last year we have two
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: point three percent def that Italy has a current account surplus,
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: which means that you know, the dest it comes from
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: interest costs UM. There's there's more experts than imports UM.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: And there's eight trillion of savings that Italians have and
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: around seventy percent of bonds are held either by the
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: bank compitily through easyb purchases or by tellent institutions. So
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: really here the government is making an effort at creating
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: financial volatility, trying to gain contensus from public opinion, trying
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: to portray the EU as a as an enemy, and
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: we've seen this before in other countries. Having said that
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: the coalition is fragile um, it's not stable, and you
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: could see a point where the Northern supporters of Mr
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Slbini say this is enough. You know, you're damaging our business.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: You need to break up from Mr Demand who has
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: been promising effectively free income to uh to be unemployed
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: and very high spending which are unrealizable. And you can
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: see that from the latest declaration of success. You know
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Mr Slovini is absent, so he's not taking a position
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: in favor of uh in in in extreme favor of
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: the budget is taking a much more moderate position. So
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: there's gonna be clearly stumble latility. But if you look
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: through that, there's potentially attractive opportunities also in other parts
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: of Europe, not necessarily in equally, but other parts that
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: are widening, that are falling in sympathy with with Italy.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: You look at Spain, for example, or the UK, well
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: you have you have bond yield adjusted for currency in
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: the UK or in Spain, which are wider than many
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: emerging markets. You know, if you look at the Barclays bonds,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: subbortinated bonds are wider than Ecuador. If you look at
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: the Spanish banks, you know they're wider than uh stub
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: story and African sovereigns. So there is a structural short
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: in Europe. Um, you don't need Europe to have extremely
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: high growth, you just need Europe not to break up
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: too and you get paid very well for that for that.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: Alberto Guello, thank you so much for being with us,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: and really interesting to think that even if Italy perhaps
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: is not a buy right now given the political uncertainty,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: the relative widening of other areas in Europe do offer
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: some opportunities. Alberto Gaello, Partner and portfolio manager for the
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Algebras Macro Credit Fund at Algebras Investments. Thanks for listening
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg P and L podcast. You can subscribe
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud or whatever
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: podcast platform you prefer. I'm pim Fox. I'm on Twitter
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: at pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at Lisa Abramo. It's
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: one before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio.