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Are We Watching Ezekiel 38 Unfold Now? | Mike Spaulding | The Week in Bible Prophecy · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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Speaker 1: The Week in Bible.
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Speaker 2: Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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Speaker 3: Hello, I'm Gary Steerman. Welcome to Prophecy Watchers. We have,
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Speaker 3: of course with us today Mondo Gonzalez. But in addition
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Speaker 3: to that, we have a very special guest, and Mondo,
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Speaker 3: you can introduce our guest.
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Speaker 4: Yes, we are gonna be discussing some fun topics today.
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Speaker 4: He's Eco thirty eight, thirty nine, as well as Jeremiah
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Speaker 4: forty nine with doctor Mike Spalding. So you've written a
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Speaker 4: lot about this, talked a lot about it, and so
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Speaker 4: it's good to have you here.
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Speaker 5: Thank you, Mondo. It's a pleasure to be here.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's gonna be good Gary. With all the things
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Speaker 4: that are happening, we thought since Mike was here for
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Speaker 4: some other interviews, that it would be good to sit
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Speaker 4: around with all the wisdom right here and talk about this.
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Speaker 4: What's your uh, you know, what's your immediate response to
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Speaker 4: all that's happening in the Middle East right now? You
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Speaker 4: got any quick thoughts before we dive deep?
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Speaker 3: Well, I think my thoughts are just like everybody else's thoughts.
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Speaker 3: Somewhere in the back of your mind, you've got Ezekiel
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Speaker 3: thirty eight, the first three or four verses, And you've
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Speaker 3: been reading about this for years, and you've been thinking
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Speaker 3: about it and saying, no, no, no, I don't think
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Speaker 3: that's it at all. And then you come back to
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Speaker 3: it once again, and what you have in Ezekiel thirty
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Speaker 3: eight is what appears to be a narrative for a
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Speaker 3: Middle East war. And there are a lot of details
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Speaker 3: that we have, and we've all tried for years, and
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Speaker 3: I know you have tried for years, just like the
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Speaker 3: rest of us, to place this in context. How are
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Speaker 3: we doing?
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Speaker 4: You know, we're doing our best to try to place
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Speaker 4: things in context because it's and I think the one
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Speaker 4: thing I appreciate about both of you guys is that
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Speaker 4: is that we're not here to sensationalize anything. You know,
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Speaker 4: We're not here to try to make something fit that doesn't.
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Speaker 4: The scripture says what it says. We anticipate it being
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Speaker 4: a future event, but we're not here necessarily to do
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Speaker 4: newspaper extra Jesus, which is often the case of people
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Speaker 4: are who are good accused of But let me ask
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Speaker 4: you this, Mike, in the sense of the I read
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Speaker 4: I interacted with somebody recently through social media and they
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Speaker 4: were making the strong claim that Ezekiel thirty and thirty
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Speaker 4: nine has often the case has been fulfilled in history
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Speaker 4: and so which we'll get to Jeremiah forty nine as well.
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Speaker 4: That'll be interesting. But right out of the gate, what
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Speaker 4: would be your response to someone claiming that, no, no,
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Speaker 4: Ezekiel thirty eight, that's I mean, this was written basically
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Speaker 4: six hundred BC and this is over nothing to see here,
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Speaker 4: definitely not future. What's kind of an immediate response out
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Speaker 4: we know that's out there?
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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, so you triggered me when I heard six
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Speaker 5: hundred BC. Okay, now you're talking nebeceonezer so no that
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Speaker 5: So if that's your argument, We've never seen a coalition
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Speaker 5: of nations like this that has come against Israel. And
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Speaker 5: I point people to verse four, especially where God says
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Speaker 5: I'll turn you about and put hooks in your jaws,
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Speaker 5: and I'll bring you out in your armies. We've never
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Speaker 5: seen that God's going to be in charge.
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Speaker 1: Of this situation.
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Speaker 5: He is orchestrating this, and he's bringing this for a reason,
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Speaker 5: and that is so that he can magnify his own
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Speaker 5: name and he can deliver his people. So this fits
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Speaker 5: in with a lot of other prophecies that we like
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Speaker 5: to talk about. But anybody that would make that claim
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Speaker 5: that this has already been fulfilled in the past, I
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Speaker 5: wouldn't take that seriously.
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Speaker 3: You know.
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Speaker 4: And with the twice in the passage, you have the
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Speaker 4: phrase in the latter years, you have the phrase in
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Speaker 4: the latter days? How does that? You know, You've written
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Speaker 4: a huge commentary on Ezekiel, which is great, And how
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Speaker 4: does he Exequel thirty eight fit within the sequence of chronology? Well,
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Speaker 4: from basically EXeCO thirty three on and we know excal
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Speaker 4: thirty six thirty seven is the dry bones vision. Does
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Speaker 4: the chronology fit here? Does the theme of the flow
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Speaker 4: of the passage lead us to this idea of restoration?
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Speaker 4: I mean, that's kind of where I see it, but
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Speaker 4: maybe I outline that for us in the sense of
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Speaker 4: where it's at.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's exactly where I see this leading is this
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Speaker 5: fits very nicely with passages in Zachariah. It fits, in
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Speaker 5: my view, passages of Joel. These things are going to transpire.
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Speaker 5: And again, the goal is, and this is a point
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Speaker 5: we need to make today because of anti Smitism.
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Speaker 1: The goal is that the Lord.
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Speaker 5: Is going to deliver his people Israel. That's the bottom
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Speaker 5: line we talked about in an earlier episode, we talked
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Speaker 5: about the Great Commission and the Gospel being a picture
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Speaker 5: of God's care.
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Speaker 1: And concern for his people Israel.
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Speaker 5: Well, that's that's what God is bringing to fruition. He's
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Speaker 5: bringing all of the nations together and he's delivering Israel
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Speaker 5: in the midst of that, and all of the nations
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Speaker 5: then will magnify his name. And that's when I read
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Speaker 5: Ezekiel thirty eight and thirty nine, and I know the
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Speaker 5: players and the you know the names of love countries.
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Speaker 5: There's a lot of stuff going on here, But the
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Speaker 5: bottom line is that God is going to magnify his
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Speaker 5: name through his people Israel as he delivers them.
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Speaker 3: Now, you said that you recognize so a lot of
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Speaker 3: these countries, and so far I have a question. Ezekiel
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Speaker 3: thirty eight does something that it cut. It's sort of
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Speaker 3: rare in the Bible. And in verse six it says
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Speaker 3: Golmer and all his bands the house of Ptilgarma of
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Speaker 3: the North quarters loops. What is north quarters? By the way,
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Speaker 3: this suggests that an invasion is coming from the north
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Speaker 3: into Israel.
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Speaker 4: Well, let's get let's get into it, because the outline
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Speaker 4: here again for those that are that are watching, is
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Speaker 4: Ezekiel thirty eight. We'll get to the players, because right,
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Speaker 4: this is one of the few places where you have
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Speaker 4: a whole host of ancient names. Let's remember that these
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Speaker 4: are ancient names. These are modern names, but you also
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Speaker 4: have ancient names. And it's not just names of individuals,
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Speaker 4: it's it's also geographical locations. And so when you're trying
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Speaker 4: to puzzle out what these names mean in their modern counterparts,
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Speaker 4: you have to look at you have to look at
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Speaker 4: where these these the names are in their time frame.
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Speaker 4: Because Chuck Missler used to say, and I still sticks
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Speaker 4: with me from the nineties, as he'd say, well, if
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Speaker 4: I said to you, I'm going to Leningrad, you'd be like, well,
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Speaker 4: where's Leningrad. Well, in the Soviet era, that's Saint Petersburg, right,
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Speaker 4: Or if if I say, hey, I went to Constantinople
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Speaker 4: last week, you'd be like, Constantinople, you mean Istanbul. Yes,
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Speaker 4: So the names often change for a specific geographical location.
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Speaker 4: And Ezekiel's using names from six hundred BC. Looking at
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Speaker 4: his counterparts, so you know, if you were four hundred
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Speaker 4: a D And you were talking about Constantinople or the
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Speaker 4: Bible used that term. You'd be like, well, clear, we
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Speaker 4: understand that today to be the ancient name for the
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Speaker 4: modern city of you know, of Istanbul. So in the
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Speaker 4: same way, you have these players here. I'll just read
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Speaker 4: them and we could talk about them. Because you brought
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Speaker 4: up Gomer, which I know you've written. Gary. Gary's actually
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Speaker 4: written has a DVD on Gomer which is pretty fascinating,
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Speaker 4: talking about its connection with Germany. But it says here
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Speaker 4: Gog of the land of Magog, Prince of rash Meshak Tuball.
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Speaker 4: I'll just list out the names Gog, the Prince of
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Speaker 4: rash Mechek, and Tuball. I'm reading the New King James here.
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Speaker 4: I know it gets a little bit different, and he says,
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Speaker 4: you have Persia, Ethiopia, Libya or all with you Gomer
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Speaker 4: and his troops. So in the sense of the players here,
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Speaker 4: I know, even amongst Prophecy guys, well, there's a lot
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Speaker 4: of difference of opinion. We all love each other, we
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Speaker 4: get along, we have different minor nuances. We all agree
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Speaker 4: that for the most part. Goomer is an example. I
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Speaker 4: mean to Garma, where is God of the base here.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, so answer your question and yours at the same time.
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Speaker 1: So, and I think this is a very.
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Speaker 5: Important phrase in verse six when it says that from
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Speaker 5: the remote parts of the North.
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Speaker 3: So, yeah, that's always interesting.
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Speaker 5: Our challenge is to not limit ourselves to a modern
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Speaker 5: Western Christian prophetic mindset and to understand that term how
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Speaker 5: they would have understood it, How would the Israelites of
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Speaker 5: Ezekiel's day understood that? And I appreciate the worked at
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Speaker 5: Derrek Gilbert's done in this area. I appreciate Mike Kaiser's
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Speaker 5: work in this area. And their suggestion is that that
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Speaker 5: phrase would refer to the supernatural enemies of God in
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Speaker 5: the remote parts of the north that we're pointing towards
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Speaker 5: Mount Hermon, And we know the story surrounding all of that.
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Speaker 5: So I appreciate that work. I think it has great
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Speaker 5: explanatory power. But I take it physically geographically.
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Speaker 1: As well as well.
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Speaker 4: It might have both. I mean, it could it very well.
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Speaker 5: So behind the enemies of Israel are the supernatural powers.
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Speaker 1: I mean I agree with that.
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Speaker 3: Well, everybody says Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia. To use an
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Speaker 3: old phrase, when you open to Ezekiel thirty eight. This
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Speaker 3: is God telling the Russians to go south toward Israel now.
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Speaker 3: And I'm making it very simple, but I am willing
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Speaker 3: to be refuted. But by men of great knowledge like yourself.
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Speaker 1: Well, I'm not so sure about that, Gary, but thank you.
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Speaker 1: What I do appreciate is I.
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Speaker 5: Was reading Bill Sallis recently and and Bill came up
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Speaker 5: through the same kind of prophetic writings and scholarship that
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Speaker 5: I did and you did, and so we know what's
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Speaker 5: out there and we know what said. But he also admits,
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Speaker 5: and this is something that Heiser pointed out, you cannot
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Speaker 5: get Russia from rash. Okay, you can't get that grammatically.
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Speaker 4: Animologically, linguistically doesn't work.
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Speaker 5: That's right, everybody does, but everybody does. But my point
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Speaker 5: about Bill is he was gracious enough to say we
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Speaker 5: can't get Russia from that word.
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Speaker 4: Nevertheless.
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Speaker 5: Okay, that's the argument.
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Speaker 3: All right.
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Speaker 4: And I think too what I what I heard years ago.
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Speaker 4: I know many of you might read Chuck Missler's book
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Speaker 4: on Gog and Magog, and I'm not saying that he
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Speaker 4: necessarily believed it, but he would mention. You know, who
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Speaker 4: really did this was going back even earlier as a
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Speaker 4: Jack van Empey. Yes, and I used to watch Jack
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Speaker 4: van Empey, which loved the inspiring guy. But he would
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Speaker 4: talk about Mishek being connected through linguistics to Moscow, which
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Speaker 4: again that's been refuted. He would talk about two Ball
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Speaker 4: being linguistically connected to Tobolsk, which is another city and
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Speaker 4: which has been refuted. Okay, so but for me, one
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Speaker 4: of the interesting things, so you have these kind of
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Speaker 4: I would say, superficial associations like rash rash is a
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Speaker 4: Hebrew word. It means chief. It's like roshashana if you
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Speaker 4: that means head of the new year, chief of the
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Speaker 4: new year. It's a Hebrew word, and bearrasheet in the
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Speaker 4: beginning it's it's Rashid comes from Rush. So you have
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Speaker 4: these Hebrew connections, which it doesn't work from Hebrew to
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Speaker 4: these other linguistic names. But one of the things that
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Speaker 4: I would be one that I don't get to Russia
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Speaker 4: through mesh two Ball, a rash I see potentially or
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Speaker 4: likely Russia is somehow involved because of the connection that
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Speaker 4: you see from Maygog Maygog, at least according to Josephus.
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Speaker 4: According to Jerome, they very strongly connect Magog with the Scythians.
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Speaker 4: Scythians appear in Colossia three eleven, so it's in the Bible.
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Speaker 4: And so the Scythians, if you look at their history,
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Speaker 4: they basically go from eastern Ukraine across the southern steps
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Speaker 4: of Russia down into basically everything north of the Black Sea,
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Speaker 4: so down into all the stands in that area. So
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Speaker 4: that's pretty far north. And I would say that today.
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Speaker 4: I mean, if you looked at it, let's say, fifty
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Speaker 4: years ago, you'd be like, oh, well, that's the Soviet Union.
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Speaker 4: But there doesn't necessarily need to be absolute Russia. But
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Speaker 4: there's no doubt at least geographically, yes, Magog goes there.
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Speaker 4: So to me, I still think I'm still open minded.
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Speaker 4: That's why even with stuff with Ukraine, you think was
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Speaker 4: Ukraine involved in this, because the Scithians were there and
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Speaker 4: connected with Maygox, So you have players that'd.
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Speaker 3: Be north of the Black Sea where there is war today.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of and as we know, there's
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Speaker 4: a lot of the previous block countries of the Soviet
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Speaker 4: Union for sure. But what we will say at least,
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Speaker 4: and I know what you have in the commentary which
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Speaker 4: is helpful, is the key player is not necessarily Russia.
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Speaker 4: The key player's Turkey. Almost all these names go to Anatolia,
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Speaker 4: which is basically what we understand as modern Turkey.
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Speaker 3: Now everybody is talking about mister Erdo of Turkey, yes,
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Speaker 3: and his intentions, So you might want to elaborate on
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Speaker 3: that at your at your freedom.
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Speaker 5: Well, it's a very interesting relationship if I can define
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Speaker 5: it as that that Turkey Erdowan has with the US.
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Speaker 4: With NATO, NATO, that's odd.
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Speaker 1: That's a very odd thing for me.
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Speaker 5: How in the world did they ever admit Turkey because
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Speaker 5: he's not been silent about what his intentions are and
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Speaker 5: he says some very antagonistic things.
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Speaker 4: About it or vitriol vitriol.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I'm not sure how that, but I mean
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Speaker 5: that's my take. That's that's where we need to be
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Speaker 5: watching his Turkey.
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Speaker 1: Will they break away from NATO soon?
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Speaker 4: Yeah? See, this is this kind of fun thing is
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Speaker 4: because I remember even in the early nineties, where you know,
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Speaker 4: Ertowan came on what two thousand and two, you know,
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Speaker 4: roughly twenty years ago, and before then, Turkey was very
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Speaker 4: Western minded. They're kind of a secular Muslim country. People
14:51
Speaker 4: would love to go there I've been to Turkey. Actually,
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Speaker 4: I love Turkey. I've been there to seven churches and
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Speaker 4: the people that are phenomenal. It's not we were in Anchor,
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Speaker 4: which is you know, the capital, which is a little
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Speaker 4: bit more of a I would say Muslim radicalism there.
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Speaker 4: But we were on the beautiful coast and it was
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Speaker 4: much more secular on the coast, and so we're I mean,
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Speaker 4: it was great, the people were wonderful. Go to Turkey, Uh,
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Speaker 4: just don't go to the capitol, Okay. But then you see,
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Speaker 4: so this is where you if you look at Turkey's history,
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Speaker 4: they come along with NATO, you know, certainly during the
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Speaker 4: time of the Soviet era in the Cold War, and
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Speaker 4: they're very Western. And then Erdawan appears, yes, and people
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Speaker 4: are always wondering, well, how is Ezekiel thirty eight gonna happen.
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Speaker 4: They're friendly, they're friendly with Israel, they love Israel, they
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Speaker 4: do things together. But then this one guy comes and
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Speaker 4: it's in the last twenty years. He's completely revamped, at least,
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Speaker 4: especially the vitriol yes and the spoken words against Israel.
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Speaker 3: In context, I'm looking at this again. It talks about
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Speaker 3: the House of Tagarma, North Quarters and all his bands
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Speaker 3: and many people with the Now, who would these bands be.
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Speaker 5: I think it would be his his fellow Jihati Islamists.
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Speaker 3: But they're they're getting very powerful.
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Speaker 1: They're they're and then they've got wealth. They have wealth
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Speaker 1: that always goes a.
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Speaker 5: Long way toward encouraging people to do stupid things. And
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Speaker 5: then I hear Trump talking about NATO's leaders being a
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Speaker 5: bunch of cowardies, and so you know, he's putting it
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Speaker 5: out there that he's not enamored with NATO at all.
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Speaker 4: Their commitment levels pretty weak.
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Speaker 1: And pretty weak.
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Speaker 5: And what would happen to NATO if if Trump said, listen,
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Speaker 5: we're done, you guys, protect yourselves, Well, that would be
16:45
Speaker 5: all the excuse sword or one would need to say,
16:48
Speaker 5: we don't. We don't need that either. Now, let's get
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Speaker 5: down to real business.
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Speaker 4: Make the break, because there's no doubt he's gonna Turkey
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Speaker 4: because they're part of NATO, would be at the present moment,
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Speaker 4: I imagine extremely reluctant to attack a NATO ally, at least
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Speaker 4: through the United States, which would be Israel. So that's
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Speaker 4: something It sure seems as we're watching things can happen fast,
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Speaker 4: as we know geopolitically, something has to happen there in
17:15
Speaker 4: the next who knows how long, but to modify that relationship.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And that goes back to what you started
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Speaker 5: a song, Gary with Zekiel thirty eight six, and I
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Speaker 5: pointed to four where it says God's going to turn
17:28
Speaker 5: him around, He's going to put a hook in him
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Speaker 5: and draw them so whatever designs he has, I think
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Speaker 5: the Turkey is central to what we're reading through.
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Speaker 3: The idea of a forceful turning about. Yes, by the
17:42
Speaker 3: hand of God. Yes, and so God. And of course
17:47
Speaker 3: we always assume this. We know this as Christians. We
17:51
Speaker 3: understand that God deals with the nations in ways that
17:54
Speaker 3: we can't possibly understand. We have no knowledge of what
17:59
Speaker 3: he's doing. But the Bible gives us these guide posts
18:03
Speaker 3: from time to time, and I believe they're there for
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Speaker 3: a reason. I believe God wants us to do some
18:10
Speaker 3: thinking about this. Because we have a rather dramatic series
18:15
Speaker 3: of developments in the Middle East right now. Everybody with
18:19
Speaker 3: even the slightest interest in Bible prophecy is scanning and
18:24
Speaker 3: re scanning Ezekiel thirty eight to try to put it
18:27
Speaker 3: all together. And I think you two have made a
18:31
Speaker 3: good start now.
18:33
Speaker 1: It's our commission.
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Speaker 5: I think that we're supposed to understand the times in
18:36
Speaker 5: which we live. We know that yes, it's a scripture, absolutely,
18:41
Speaker 5: and I think that's for all of us. We're to
18:43
Speaker 5: understand what it is we're reading and not just close
18:47
Speaker 5: the book and say, well, that's in the past.
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Speaker 4: Or even the sensationalizings. I think that's one of the
18:51
Speaker 4: challenges is when you look out there is some of
18:54
Speaker 4: the accusations again from our brothers and sisters in Christ,
18:57
Speaker 4: who we love. It's okay to be disagreed on eschatology.
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Speaker 4: But one of the things that was brought up and
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Speaker 4: I want to read, I'll just read this just because
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Speaker 4: I want to get your thoughts on it is again, well,
19:06
Speaker 4: this is historical. Well. In verse eight, as I mentioned earlier,
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Speaker 4: it says this, after many days, you will be visited
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Speaker 4: in the latter years you talking to basically this coalition,
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Speaker 4: specifically the leader Gog. You will come into the land
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Speaker 4: of those brought back from the sword and gathered from
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Speaker 4: many people on the mountains of Israel, Okay, which had
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Speaker 4: long been desolate. They were brought out of the nations,
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Speaker 4: and now all of them dwell securely or with confidence
19:34
Speaker 4: Bettah and the Hebrews is with confidence. What I find
19:36
Speaker 4: interesting here is it's a reference to the latter years,
19:39
Speaker 4: but also to the mountains of Israel. So in the
19:44
Speaker 4: sense of many people will say, well, come on, now,
19:46
Speaker 4: come on, you're just this is historical. Ezekiel's doing this,
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Speaker 4: He's mentioned this in six hundred BC. Well, we know
19:53
Speaker 4: that in the waves Israel got exiled to Babylon, and
19:58
Speaker 4: so they were there for seventy years, right Jeremi twin, Okay,
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Speaker 4: So but I think in seventy years, okay, they're brought
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Speaker 4: back after were the mountains long desolate in seventy years?
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Speaker 4: I mean, that's that's actually not even true at all,
20:13
Speaker 4: because as we know that when the Assyrian captivity happened,
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Speaker 4: the mountains there, going all the way from Samaria down
20:21
Speaker 4: into Juda, it was filled with you know, other peoples.
20:24
Speaker 4: But then Judah got Judah got basically exiled. But is
20:29
Speaker 4: this set So here's the question, is this long desolation
20:34
Speaker 4: of the mountains of Israel? So there Israel's coming back
20:38
Speaker 4: after a time of absence. Is it seventy years or
20:41
Speaker 4: is it eighteen hundred and seventy eight years? You know,
20:44
Speaker 4: where is this nineteen forty eight or is this basically
20:47
Speaker 4: five thirty six BC, which one fits the text and
20:51
Speaker 4: the latter years better.
20:52
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, forty eight forty eight, right, yeah, sure, yeah.
20:58
Speaker 3: And you know this is interesting. When I read this,
21:01
Speaker 3: it always takes me back to a trip to Israel
21:03
Speaker 3: when we went up we climbed certain of these mountains
21:06
Speaker 3: and saw everybody, all the tourists who go into Israel
21:11
Speaker 3: go up into the north parts and some of the
21:13
Speaker 3: mountainous territory, and the guide takes you through, and you
21:16
Speaker 3: go through and see ancient that ruins, and the Bible
21:23
Speaker 3: says here these mountains, which I think maybe are on
21:26
Speaker 3: the mountains in Israel, have been desolate. And it's when
21:29
Speaker 3: you're a tourist you go up there and you see
21:31
Speaker 3: this desolation, and your first thought is, wow, when are
21:35
Speaker 3: they going to rebuild all this? You know? Now, is
21:40
Speaker 3: this what we're talking about?
21:41
Speaker 4: Well, when you go there now, like it said, I
21:44
Speaker 4: just think of Mark Twain's comment, right, He's in the
21:47
Speaker 4: land of Israel and the Lady Dinner, It's like, who
21:50
Speaker 4: would want to live here? It's a disgusting wasteland, which
21:53
Speaker 4: is exactly what Ezekiel thirty eight says that this war
21:57
Speaker 4: is going to happen in the latter years, and they're
21:59
Speaker 4: going to come. They're going to come down to the
22:01
Speaker 4: mountains that had long been desolate and now are repopulated
22:05
Speaker 4: by a group of people through that God's people, the
22:08
Speaker 4: Jews who were scattered amongst all the nations, not just Babylon.
22:13
Speaker 4: But God has brought them all back. And that's this
22:15
Speaker 4: is to me what I find interesting here is Ezeko
22:18
Speaker 4: thirty eight. I'm going to make a profound statement. It
22:21
Speaker 4: occurs after chapter thirty six and turn thirty seven. Okay, so,
22:25
Speaker 4: which I think most scholars would say is clearly a
22:29
Speaker 4: reference to the regathering of Israel from the nations of
22:32
Speaker 4: the world back into the land in unbelief currently, And
22:36
Speaker 4: so it sets the stage for Ezeco thirty eight happening,
22:38
Speaker 4: because you can't come against a land where there's the
22:41
Speaker 4: Jews aren't human there, That's right, that's right.
22:43
Speaker 3: So does that make this Ezekiel thirty eight? Does that
22:47
Speaker 3: make this contemporary? In other words, here it is in
22:51
Speaker 3: the Bible. We've got it right before our eyes. Are
22:53
Speaker 3: we reading about something that is a contemporary event to
22:58
Speaker 3: us today?
23:00
Speaker 1: Absolutely?
23:00
Speaker 5: Say yes, we are this is coming to fruition right
23:05
Speaker 5: in front of our eyes. And this is a good reason,
23:09
Speaker 5: as we understand Ezekiel thirty eight thirty nine.
23:12
Speaker 1: This is a good reason.
23:14
Speaker 5: Well, it is exciting, and that's what I was going
23:16
Speaker 5: to say, to keep your eyes focused on You know,
23:19
Speaker 5: I've got some friends that have made this statement and
23:23
Speaker 5: I never quite understood it, and it's this, Well, I
23:28
Speaker 5: don't get involved in politics. I don't want to talk
23:30
Speaker 5: about politics. I don't say anything and from the pulpit
23:34
Speaker 5: about politics. And my response is always the same, Well,
23:38
Speaker 5: if you're not going to take time to understand what's
23:41
Speaker 5: going on geopolitically, how in the world do you think
23:43
Speaker 5: you're going to understand any of this. I think you
23:46
Speaker 5: have to speak to the things that we're seeing, not
23:49
Speaker 5: be dogmatic about some of the things, but saying this
23:53
Speaker 5: looks a lot like this right here, and keep an
23:55
Speaker 5: eye on that, which is what we're supposed to be doing. Anyway,
23:58
Speaker 5: let me.
23:58
Speaker 3: Make a remark. It maybe slightly out of tune at
24:04
Speaker 3: this moment, but watching international television and watching the Israeli
24:10
Speaker 3: television output, what you find is people standing out at
24:17
Speaker 3: night with microphones and pointing the cameras up into the
24:20
Speaker 3: sky and seeing the rockets fly. Here's a rocket, here's
24:25
Speaker 3: a rocket. Everybody's going to the shelters. And that has
24:30
Speaker 3: taken many of us back to Ezekiel thirty eight because
24:33
Speaker 3: we're looking here and we have an invader. In this case,
24:38
Speaker 3: it was Iran, but it looks like somebody else is
24:42
Speaker 3: getting ready, perhaps Turkey and some of the cohorts of Turkey.
24:47
Speaker 3: But what I'm in response to what you said, I'm thinking,
24:52
Speaker 3: I'm seeing this on TV right now. I'm seeing rockets
24:56
Speaker 3: come into Israel. Yeah, and I'm thinking about do dare
25:00
Speaker 3: say that we're this far into Bible prophecy that we
25:05
Speaker 3: can say this is happening right now.
25:07
Speaker 1: Well, love him or hate him?
25:10
Speaker 5: We were talking about this the other day, Mando, love
25:13
Speaker 5: him or hate him, and we did in your office
25:17
Speaker 5: just not too long ago. Yes, God's got his hand
25:22
Speaker 5: on on Donald Trump. And the reason that I say
25:25
Speaker 5: that is because of things that come out of his mouth,
25:28
Speaker 5: the things that he says that caused me to pause,
25:33
Speaker 5: because what he says isn't really his intention, but he's
25:37
Speaker 5: putting it out there to get people, and then then
25:39
Speaker 5: he's doing something else. So it's like, what is the
25:42
Speaker 5: something else he's doing?
25:43
Speaker 1: Well, if you know your scriptures, it's a boy.
25:45
Speaker 4: He is.
25:47
Speaker 5: The Lord is using him to pave the way to
25:49
Speaker 5: bring these things in to pass. So it's very interesting
25:53
Speaker 5: to me right now the days in which.
25:55
Speaker 4: We live, you know, and I will I will say
25:56
Speaker 4: that you know, what we what we aren't saying, is
25:59
Speaker 4: that what we're seeing right now in Iran is Ezekiel
26:02
Speaker 4: thirty eight. What we're saying is looking at what the
26:06
Speaker 4: description is here and how it's playing out. It does
26:10
Speaker 4: contribute ultimately to Iran's weakness, and then that where Iran fits,
26:14
Speaker 4: Persia fits in the coalition here, it's not the leader.
26:20
Speaker 3: You know.
26:20
Speaker 4: Basically, I think I one imagine that Turkey's leader. What
26:27
Speaker 4: let me summarize something and get your guys' thoughts, because
26:30
Speaker 4: what in my mind Ezeko thirty eight presents this scenario
26:35
Speaker 4: where Israel's alone. Okay, you have Shiba and d Dan
26:39
Speaker 4: making a protest, which most likely is Saudi Arabia at
26:42
Speaker 4: least supporting the ancient language. So Saudi Arabia or other
26:45
Speaker 4: people's maybe the Gulf States are making this protest about
26:48
Speaker 4: this coalition that's coming up. What prevents Turkey right now
26:51
Speaker 4: from coming adjoining with Iran against.
26:55
Speaker 5: Israel the supernatural hand of God.
26:57
Speaker 4: Okay, yes, more practically too spiritual for me for a moment.
27:02
Speaker 4: In a practical sense, what would prevent in a geopolitical
27:05
Speaker 4: sense right now, who's the.
27:07
Speaker 5: Biggest Well, Israel really has has flexed its muscles right now,
27:14
Speaker 5: and I think that that has put Urdigan, Turkey and
27:18
Speaker 5: anybody else who's in the background with designs on Israel.
27:24
Speaker 5: It's given them pause because they understand as the status
27:28
Speaker 5: quo right now is they don't stand a chance.
27:30
Speaker 4: Think bigger, think bigger. Well, I'm leading the witness now. Well,
27:35
Speaker 4: in my mind, the United States, the United States is
27:38
Speaker 4: the big brother with all of its things out there.
27:40
Speaker 4: If the United States wasn't there, then they would be
27:43
Speaker 4: a little bit more tempted, potentially true to have a
27:45
Speaker 4: coalition because they could overwhelm little Israel by just sheer numbers.
27:49
Speaker 4: But what we see is that's why we're saying this
27:52
Speaker 4: isn't happening right now because Israel's alone. But they're not
27:56
Speaker 4: alone right now, and so Ezekiel portrays a future where
28:00
Speaker 4: they get attacked by huge coalition. Right all your bands
28:04
Speaker 4: and Israel will not have the big brother in the
28:06
Speaker 4: United States. There. That's kind of where I was thinking.
28:09
Speaker 5: And I agree with that, Mando, And just one other
28:11
Speaker 5: thought I want to throw in there talking about this coalition.
28:15
Speaker 5: I think what we're witnessing right now is the fact
28:19
Speaker 5: that Iran cannot.
28:22
Speaker 1: Take out Israel by itself. It is tried.
28:25
Speaker 5: It has proxies and hamas and Hebellah and the hoo
28:28
Speaker 5: Thi's and they've but they've learned we don't stand a chance.
28:34
Speaker 1: They're going to be driven to be.
28:36
Speaker 5: A part of this coalition because they know they can't
28:38
Speaker 5: do it.
28:38
Speaker 4: On it and they're they're getting they're getting they're obviously
28:40
Speaker 4: eating kro right now. And imagine here where they see
28:44
Speaker 4: another coalition that is seeking to come down at a
28:47
Speaker 4: future time, and they're like, we want a part of that,
28:49
Speaker 4: because that revenge that they are looking to, well obviously
28:54
Speaker 4: they hate Israel. That would be sweet, sweet revenge if
28:57
Speaker 4: they could jump on another bandwagon led by Turkey or other.
29:01
Speaker 4: They're not going to forget what's happening right now.
29:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, Now, Gog says, I'll go up to the land
29:08
Speaker 3: of unwalled villages among the people that are arrested, well safely.
29:13
Speaker 3: You know, Israel has until very recently dwelt in great safety.
29:20
Speaker 3: Tourism exploded and businesses of various kinds blossomed in Israel.
29:26
Speaker 3: Everybody was saying it's full speed ahead for Israel, except
29:31
Speaker 3: Islam hates the very site or the thought of Israel.
29:36
Speaker 3: And you go down the thirteenth first here it says Sheba,
29:39
Speaker 3: indeed Dan, and the merchants of Tarshish, well, all the
29:43
Speaker 3: young lions thereof Shell. Well, let's just say, this group
29:51
Speaker 3: looks and says, can I get something out of this too?
29:55
Speaker 3: So what we've got here is a picture of a
29:58
Speaker 3: gathering storm. It starts to the north, it comes down
30:02
Speaker 3: and now it goes to Sheba Anddida, and and there's
30:07
Speaker 3: a gathering of invaders all around Israel. Do we see
30:12
Speaker 3: something like that shaping off right now?
30:15
Speaker 5: Well, Israel has become by God's grace.
30:20
Speaker 4: They don't deserve it.
30:21
Speaker 1: They don't deserve it, that's right.
30:23
Speaker 5: They have become a jewel in the midst of Barbarisma.
30:29
Speaker 5: And all of those eyes are our envious eyes. They're
30:33
Speaker 5: they're looking to come and capture spoil. They see Israel
30:37
Speaker 5: is very attractive to them, and they don't understand what's
30:43
Speaker 5: behind it.
30:43
Speaker 4: And the hooks and the jaws as they're drawing us down.
30:45
Speaker 4: That yeah, they get they get drawn. It's interesting too
30:48
Speaker 4: that you know, if you get our magazine, the upcoming magazine,
30:52
Speaker 4: I talk about this particular passage in the sense of
30:56
Speaker 4: without walls. And if you if you go to Israel today,
30:59
Speaker 4: Israel there's there's a very small border wall and then
31:02
Speaker 4: the rest of it is just fence. But Israel is
31:06
Speaker 4: it says unwalled villages. And if you go to any
31:08
Speaker 4: village in Israel.
31:09
Speaker 1: It's not wald.
31:10
Speaker 4: I mean, especially if you think about in my mind
31:11
Speaker 4: from Ezekiel's day that in ease Eagel's time context right,
31:16
Speaker 4: if you if your village wasn't wald, you are sitting duck.
31:19
Speaker 4: And so today that's not how we do war. And
31:22
Speaker 4: so the wall they are that that at least that
31:24
Speaker 4: verse is true. There's they're unwalled villages. But the second
31:27
Speaker 4: thing is I highlight in there is the Hebrew word
31:31
Speaker 4: but talk and the Hebrew word shakat. You know that
31:34
Speaker 4: they will be dwelling. It doesn't say peace. That that
31:38
Speaker 4: some versions will say peace. That's not the word shalom,
31:41
Speaker 4: and so it says they'll be dwelling confidently and quietly.
31:45
Speaker 4: Shakat is the idea of like I would tell my girls,
31:48
Speaker 4: I know some modern Hebrew, and I remember when I
31:50
Speaker 4: was in Israel doing some excavations, if there was a
31:54
Speaker 4: woman there who was the leader of some of the
31:58
Speaker 4: younger students, and I would hear, check it, check it,
32:01
Speaker 4: you know, and I was like, I think I know
32:03
Speaker 4: what that means. I don't, you know. And so it's
32:04
Speaker 4: it's like, shut up, it's quiet, it's be quiet, be
32:07
Speaker 4: settled down. And so you have this idea that Israel
32:11
Speaker 4: is going to be dwelling confidently over confidently. I would say,
32:14
Speaker 4: especially what we're seeing now, I mean, Israel is there
32:18
Speaker 4: flex and like you said, so they are right now
32:21
Speaker 4: as we watch after this, they're dwelling confidently and relatively. Again,
32:26
Speaker 4: is most likely two rooms will go back the word
32:30
Speaker 4: this idea that there's that this requires some peace universal
32:34
Speaker 4: peace agreement. I don't necessarily that's not required by the text,
32:37
Speaker 4: that might happen. But so people say, oh, this will
32:40
Speaker 4: never happen until there's conference in Abraham records that go.
32:42
Speaker 4: I don't, that's not what the texts say, but nevertheless
32:45
Speaker 4: they are dwelling confidently for sure.
32:48
Speaker 3: I have a question for both of you. Having gone
32:52
Speaker 3: through the verses that we have so far, there's been
32:55
Speaker 3: a thought in the back of my mind all the way.
32:58
Speaker 3: Can we depend on our interpretation of these verses to
33:02
Speaker 3: the extent that as Christians witnessing to those who do
33:08
Speaker 3: not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, can we use
33:12
Speaker 3: this as perhaps a proof that there may not be
33:16
Speaker 3: much time and you better make your decision for Christ
33:20
Speaker 3: right now? Or is that overstating it.
33:23
Speaker 5: I don't think it's overstating it, Gary, and I would
33:25
Speaker 5: not hesitate to use it, but I wouldn't be dogmatic
33:30
Speaker 5: about it and say, listen, I'll.
33:32
Speaker 1: Read this and explain a little bit as I'm reading it.
33:35
Speaker 5: What does that sound like to you? And they're going
33:38
Speaker 5: to say, sounds like what's going on today? I said, well,
33:42
Speaker 5: that very well could be.
33:45
Speaker 4: And the phraseology the latter years has twice latter days.
33:50
Speaker 4: Latter years has the idea that, look, there's an endpoint
33:54
Speaker 4: to God's timeline of history, and we are at the
33:57
Speaker 4: end of the dage. Using Jesus's phraseology, we know that
34:00
Speaker 4: the last days that phrase in the New Testament began
34:04
Speaker 4: at the time of Jesus's departure in heaven, So you
34:07
Speaker 4: know Hebrews one, first Peter, I'll talk about the last days.
34:09
Speaker 4: But that's why I don't like using that term, because
34:11
Speaker 4: some of the people who maybe are partial preterists or others,
34:13
Speaker 4: they'll be like, well, we'll be in the last days
34:15
Speaker 4: for two thousand years, okay, you know what. So I
34:16
Speaker 4: say end of the age because Jesus used that phrase
34:19
Speaker 4: in Matthew twenty eight. Go preach the gospel, ride, make disciples,
34:22
Speaker 4: and I've been with you always, and tell what the
34:24
Speaker 4: end of the age. So I like that phrase phraseology better.
34:27
Speaker 4: But here there's no doubt Gary that when we look
34:29
Speaker 4: at EXeCO thirty eight and we look at the players
34:31
Speaker 4: and we look at Islam Boy, it's it's sure lining
34:36
Speaker 4: up very very nice with and it even says an
34:40
Speaker 4: exceedingly great army in chapter thirty seven. That's after they
34:44
Speaker 4: get re re that's after they get brought back into
34:47
Speaker 4: the land in EXeCO thirty seven. So the idea that
34:50
Speaker 4: this was fulfilled in ancient history is just doesn't work
34:54
Speaker 4: on almost every level.
34:56
Speaker 3: That's right, Well, then I take it that you gave
35:00
Speaker 3: mean the go ahead to go out and to my neighbors. Yeah,
35:04
Speaker 3: have you seen what's happening on TV to Israel today?
35:08
Speaker 3: Have you seen all the rockets flying, all the ships
35:12
Speaker 3: being sunk, and people planting mines in the Persian Gulf
35:17
Speaker 3: and so forth, and so going into all the things
35:21
Speaker 3: that are happening, what's right in the middle, tiny little Israel.
35:26
Speaker 3: And just by the most amazing coincidence, we have Donald
35:32
Speaker 3: Trump and the Prime Minister of Israel having a very
35:40
Speaker 3: close relationship, very secret relationship because of all the things
35:45
Speaker 3: that are happening. And I can't help but try to
35:50
Speaker 3: put all this together into you better make your decision
35:54
Speaker 3: for Christ quickly because there may not be much time.
35:58
Speaker 4: It is so true, And I think that's really why
36:02
Speaker 4: we're here where. That's the one of the reasons why
36:03
Speaker 4: we're always here, is to get the Gospel and help
36:05
Speaker 4: people understand that scripture. This book is God's word. He
36:09
Speaker 4: predicts the future in advance for us. You know, read
36:11
Speaker 4: Isaiah forty forty two, forty four, forty six. God says,
36:15
Speaker 4: I'm going to I'm the only one that knows the
36:17
Speaker 4: end from the beginning. And this is God's unique book
36:20
Speaker 4: as we know in the world. And before we depart
36:24
Speaker 4: from really the Middle East, I want to we have
36:27
Speaker 4: to bring them Jeremiah forty forty nine because right now
36:31
Speaker 4: missiles are falling Israel. They're one of the shelters, as
36:34
Speaker 4: you mentioned, Gary, So Jeremiah forty nine. A lot of
36:37
Speaker 4: people there's this discussion on Elam. Maybe if you will
36:41
Speaker 4: provide for us kind of the intro background for somebody
36:44
Speaker 4: who's watching and that might say, what does this have
36:47
Speaker 4: to do pastor doctor, which Jeremi forty nine is what
36:51
Speaker 4: we're seeing. Give us the background there.
36:52
Speaker 5: Yeah, so this is from Jeremiah forty nine, a prophecy
36:56
Speaker 5: against Elam. And so the current conversation out there today, well,
37:01
Speaker 5: this is in the past. It's a historical event that's
37:05
Speaker 5: already happened, and so there's nothing prophetic to be, nothing,
37:09
Speaker 5: nothing to see here. And and my comment is not
37:12
Speaker 5: so fast.
37:13
Speaker 4: Yeah, because who is Elam? Like we read Ilam there,
37:16
Speaker 4: what's Elam? And give us the background?
37:17
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that's Elam was it was an ancient territory
37:22
Speaker 5: within what is now modern day Iran. And so people
37:25
Speaker 5: are talking about Persia and and how this fits in
37:30
Speaker 5: and and it says in here, uh what versus it
37:33
Speaker 5: the bow is broken at the beginning of the rain. Yes,
37:38
Speaker 5: so this was of course during during the Babylonian conquest
37:42
Speaker 5: and exile and and all of those things.
37:47
Speaker 1: And so people, yeah, verse.
37:48
Speaker 5: Thirty five, I'm going to break the bow of Elam.
37:51
Speaker 1: So some folks that I respect.
37:53
Speaker 5: That have been a great benefit to the body of
37:58
Speaker 5: Christ and the prophetic realm have said, well, this was
38:03
Speaker 5: in the past, and I said, no, I think this
38:05
Speaker 5: is yet in the future. Were still going to see
38:09
Speaker 5: this and it may be what we were talking about
38:13
Speaker 5: right here in any Sekiel thirty eight.
38:16
Speaker 4: That's the question, is the in talking about what's happening
38:20
Speaker 4: right now breaking the bow the foremost of their might.
38:23
Speaker 4: And so the idea of a bow is a long
38:25
Speaker 4: range weapon, right, So a lot of people are asking
38:28
Speaker 4: about whether if you look at Iran's threat, their greatest
38:31
Speaker 4: threat is their missiles. Right now, that's the long range threat.
38:34
Speaker 4: It's really interesting. So and it doesn't say Persia, but
38:37
Speaker 4: Elam again is on the southwest corner of modern day Iran,
38:40
Speaker 4: and the idea then is And I like what you said,
38:44
Speaker 4: because in my research there's a lot of claims that
38:48
Speaker 4: are made that this was fulfilled historically. You look at
38:51
Speaker 4: the Babylonian chronicles and you're like, there's nothing even in
38:54
Speaker 4: the Babylonian chronicles that show you decisively that this passage
38:58
Speaker 4: has been fulfilled in history. Look at any commentary, any
39:00
Speaker 4: technical commentary, now there could it have been fulfilled and
39:03
Speaker 4: we just don't have any historical record. Maybe yeah, probably,
39:06
Speaker 4: I'm not opposed that. But for someone to say, no,
39:09
Speaker 4: it was fulfilled historically, here's the thing. It does not fit.
39:12
Speaker 3: May I just interrupt to read one verse, verse thirty nine.
39:16
Speaker 3: But it shall come to pass in the latter days
39:20
Speaker 3: that I will bring again the captivity of Elam Saith
39:23
Speaker 3: the Lord. Well, I think we're living in the latter day.
39:26
Speaker 4: That's another marker. I think that is helpful in doing it. Now,
39:31
Speaker 4: would you say that what we're seeing right now rockets falling, basically,
39:37
Speaker 4: the decapitation or at least the weakening of Iran is
39:42
Speaker 4: a fulfillment of this.
39:48
Speaker 5: It's very possible, but too early to tell. I like that, Yeah,
39:53
Speaker 5: it's very possible. We'll see what happens. Yeah, we'll see
39:57
Speaker 5: what happens with They're not done yet, right, they're they're
40:01
Speaker 5: not done yet.
40:02
Speaker 3: I think we're seeing the bare beginnings. What it's been
40:05
Speaker 3: four weeks almost for almost four weeks, that's not very.
40:10
Speaker 4: I'm supposed to go to Israel Gary May first. I
40:13
Speaker 4: don't think it's gonna happen.
40:15
Speaker 3: I'll call somebody, get that war stop.
40:18
Speaker 4: Yeah, I gotta hung on a trip plan. I was
40:21
Speaker 4: planning going on Mount Hermone up to the Lebanon border,
40:23
Speaker 4: you know, And now there says Belawe got that. I'm like,
40:26
Speaker 4: I don't think I'm gonna hang out at the Lebanon
40:28
Speaker 4: border up there.
40:29
Speaker 3: Yeah.
40:29
Speaker 4: Yeah, the whole thing is, but it's not done yet
40:32
Speaker 4: four weeks in. And so the rest of these things
40:35
Speaker 4: we know. Any down in elam Or in the southwestern
40:39
Speaker 4: part is where a lot of the nuclear reactors are,
40:43
Speaker 4: and that's been the main issue, right, the nuclear capabilities
40:46
Speaker 4: of Iran. So what we're seeing, I would say that
40:49
Speaker 4: there's probably been no greater geopolitical developments in my lifetime
40:54
Speaker 4: that would even connect as closely to what we're seeing
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Speaker 4: here as now. That's for sure. But I'm not ready
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Speaker 4: to say fulfilled because we're not there yet.
41:04
Speaker 3: However, and again we're talking about exegesis here based upon subjectivity.
41:12
Speaker 3: What we think this might be saying, and our desire
41:18
Speaker 3: is that the Lord come back as soon as possible.
41:22
Speaker 3: As Christians, we're looking up, we're watching and waiting, and
41:26
Speaker 3: we're keyed up to understand things like this as pertaining
41:32
Speaker 3: to us, and we would love to think that they
41:35
Speaker 3: do pertain to us. But we have to be careful.
41:38
Speaker 3: And I sense from you that note of being very,
41:42
Speaker 3: very careful about what we're reading.
41:44
Speaker 5: I try to be cautious. That's called wisdom, because when
41:51
Speaker 5: you're not, you're getting nailed down and then it's like,
41:53
Speaker 5: see you said that, Yeah, it's like But to your point, Gary,
41:57
Speaker 5: is there's a whole segment of the church sadly that's
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Speaker 5: not tracking with any.
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Speaker 4: Of this.
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Speaker 2: Because they're being told, they're being told correct, nothing to see,
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Speaker 2: and we are supposed to be curious, we are supposed
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Speaker 2: to be hearing from the spirit as we study the scriptures.
42:18
Speaker 5: That should be the goal of every believer. But again,
42:22
Speaker 5: a large segment of the body is not doing that.
42:25
Speaker 3: Without being dogmatic and looking at the scriptures that we've
42:29
Speaker 3: been just talking about in this session. I'm excited. I
42:34
Speaker 3: can't escape that feeling that something is about to happen.
42:39
Speaker 3: And as a believer in Lord Jesus Christ and one
42:42
Speaker 3: who looks towards the rapture of the church, I can't
42:46
Speaker 3: help but try to see something there. But I have
42:50
Speaker 3: to watch it right as careful I have to be.
42:54
Speaker 3: I have to be grammatically correct when I interpret it,
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Speaker 3: historically correct. Yes, and that's real responsibility.
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Speaker 5: Well, the Spirit of God will not lead us into air,
43:04
Speaker 5: but we can run ahead.
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Speaker 4: That's true.
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Speaker 5: So we need to be careful about allowing the Spirit
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Speaker 5: to take us on this journey of understanding the scriptures.
43:16
Speaker 5: And that's why conversations like this are so important and valuable.
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Speaker 3: Well, I've enjoyed this a great deal, very exciting to me.
43:25
Speaker 3: If I went through these same verses tomorrow, it was
43:28
Speaker 3: very exciting. Then, I'm sure, because we are looking.
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Speaker 5: For the Lord, we are amen.
43:33
Speaker 3: Well, Mondo, do you have any closing rewards?
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Speaker 4: Nope, you guys said it. Well, I'm just I appreciate it.
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Speaker 3: Well, it's been great. I've enjoyed sitting here with these
43:44
Speaker 3: two gentlemen who know a great deal more than I
43:46
Speaker 3: do about the fine points of Exejesus. I'm a good listener.
43:54
Speaker 3: I'm a good listener. And I hope you have been
43:56
Speaker 3: a good listener. And I pray that the Lord will
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Speaker 3: touch your heart, open your eyes, open your mind to
44:06
Speaker 3: the prophetic scriptures that we have in the Bible. And
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Speaker 3: we just pray that Jesus may