Latest / Preacher Handshake / Episode 7 - Evan Duncan

Transcript

Episode 7 - Evan Duncan · Preacher Handshake

0:00
Welcome to Preacher Handshake. I'm Hannah. And
0:02
I'm Evan, and we're your hosts. This week is
0:05
going to be a little different. So if you've
0:06
been following along, every week we usually are
0:08
listening to a guest, and we are listening to
0:12
a sermon that they're preaching, and we're asking
0:13
questions. But this week, based on some of your
0:16
feedback, we don't have a guest. We're listening
0:18
to one of Evan's sermons. So I think this is
0:21
going to be a really fun episode. We're looking
0:23
at a sermon that he preached. on march 23rd 2025
0:27
called argue with heaven and it is from job 13
0:31
3 through 14 7 and he preached this at his church
0:35
the baptist church of westchester yeah i feel
0:44
a little bit weird about this episode and having
0:48
my sermon be the focus um but we're doing it
0:52
because of the feedback we got. And this means
0:54
that Hannah's sermon's next. A little bit about
0:57
me. I'm a pastor ordained in the American Baptist
1:01
Churches of USA. And I pastor an American Baptist
1:04
Church in Southeast Pennsylvania in a town called
1:07
Westchester, right outside of Philadelphia. It's
1:09
a college town. Our church is ABC USA, and it's
1:12
also partnered with the Association of Welcoming
1:15
and Affirming Baptists and the Alliance of Baptists.
1:18
I went to undergrad and studied theology and
1:22
journalism at the University of Mary Hardin Baylor.
1:25
And then I went to seminary at Baylor's George
1:28
W. Truitt Theological Seminary. And currently,
1:31
I am a PhD candidate at Eastern University, which
1:36
has been a lot of fun. Yeah, I'm really excited
1:39
that we're getting to listen to one of your sermons.
1:42
This is a practice, you know, you and I started
1:44
out doing this together when we were on the same
1:47
church staff together. And I think It was really
1:50
exciting for me, I think, to go through and listen
1:52
to one of your messages and be like, okay, I
1:54
know what this feels like. So I'm excited about
1:57
it. Can you tell us a little bit about what your
2:00
relationship to preaching is like? Yeah, I love
2:03
preaching, but that has not always been the case.
2:06
I grew up in a little ABC church for my earliest
2:11
days. My pastor there was just a really gifted
2:15
preacher. I didn't realize that because that's
2:17
all I knew, but later learned how gifted he was
2:20
and thoughtful he was. And then we moved all
2:24
over the world. My mom married my dad, my stepdad,
2:26
who was in the army. So we lived everywhere.
2:29
So I was exposed to a lot of different faith
2:30
traditions, a lot of different kinds of churches,
2:33
and really sensed a call to be part of what God
2:37
is doing in the world. I didn't know what that
2:38
meant. So I ended up going to school in Texas.
2:42
then eventually seminary. But my plan was not
2:44
to do ministry. I wasn't going to do seminary
2:47
either. Things change. That's how it goes. And
2:49
I still just wanted to maybe teach or write,
2:52
not be a pastor. But then when I was in preaching
2:55
too, I really fell in love with the craft of
2:58
preaching. It really opened my eyes. My professor,
3:02
Hewlett Glower, It was just wonderful and kind
3:05
and creative. And I realized that a lot of things
3:08
that I really loved, like poetry and literary
3:11
analysis and reading and the Bible and even like
3:16
performance and comedy and things like that,
3:19
that I had loved. Also journalism. I was a journalism
3:23
major in undergrad. Loved writing and doing journalism
3:26
and all of these things that I had really worked
3:29
on a lot in my education that now seem to be
3:31
coalescing around being able to communicate about
3:34
the Bible in a way that's accessible and engaging
3:36
and hopefully transformative for people's lives.
3:40
So I didn't really want to be a preacher, but
3:42
I had a professor say, if you can do anything
3:44
else besides ministry, go do that. And it just
3:48
became clear to me that this is what I was supposed
3:50
to do. Yeah, I really love that. In my experience
3:55
too, I've seen, you know, you say that teaching
3:57
is something that you wanted to do, but I've
3:59
really seen you kind of try and do that in a
4:02
way with preaching where it seems a lot of like
4:05
your preaching philosophy has been incorporating
4:08
voices of other people and helping really equip
4:10
people who maybe think, oh, I couldn't really
4:13
be a preacher and really kind of giving people
4:16
agency in that. kind of clearing the way for
4:21
other people to experience what a gift preaching
4:23
is and what a powerful tool that is. So it's
4:26
really cool to hear just the way that I think
4:29
some of maybe that is being redeemed, right?
4:31
Like the teaching was something that's always
4:34
been a part of your heart. And now teaching preaching
4:36
is maybe something that's a part of it too. Is
4:38
that fair? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's just
4:42
been so... important for my own formation of
4:45
like wrestling with the text and wrestling with
4:47
how to communicate it and digest it and and i'm
4:53
a baptist through and through and so i really
4:55
believe in um or i'd say the priesthood of all
5:00
believers of the ability for people to study
5:04
god's word and communicate and share what they
5:09
think. And so being able to help other people
5:11
use their voice and find their voice, I mean,
5:14
it just gives me joy like that. I really feel
5:16
like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing
5:19
when I'm helping other people discover that they
5:23
have something to say and that their perspective
5:24
is important and that they can participate in
5:28
this thing of engaging with scripture and sharing
5:31
in community with it. So yeah, totally. I really
5:35
get a kick out of helping other people preach.
5:38
Yeah, I love that. So tell us a little bit about
5:40
the Baptist Church of Westchester. You know,
5:43
this is where you preach the sermon. Who are
5:44
they? What are they like? Yeah, it's a really
5:48
fun and beautiful and interesting community.
5:51
The church was founded in 1834. The building
5:54
that I'm sitting in right now was built in 1854.
5:58
It's been around for a minute and we are right
6:00
in the heart of town. right nestled between the
6:03
university and all the bars so you have to walk
6:06
past us to get where you're going for a lot of
6:08
our students um and so yeah it's a it's a college
6:11
town but it's a really interesting community
6:13
made up of people from all different kinds of
6:17
generations so we you know for example in our
6:20
worship style we have a really gifted praise
6:23
band and we also have an organist who is wonderful
6:26
and has been our organist for like I think, 40
6:28
plus years. And so we have these very different
6:32
distinct styles happening in the same service.
6:34
And that's actually reflective, I think, of the
6:36
community of senior adults and lots of young
6:39
adults and kids everywhere and college students.
6:43
It's just a really wide scope of different kinds
6:47
of people and all of that in an actually really
6:48
small community. It's a pretty small church by
6:51
lots of standards. And coming out of a... really
6:55
large church where you and I were on staff. It's
6:57
just been very different, but also really beautiful,
7:00
really intimate, get to know everybody and know
7:03
them well. And it's really community -focused,
7:07
justice -focused. When I was interviewing, they've
7:10
been serving a community breakfast on Saturday
7:13
mornings. They've been doing that for 40 years
7:15
every Saturday, even figuring out a way to do
7:17
like to -go breakfasts during the pandemic. And
7:22
so they've been doing that for folks in our community.
7:25
And then they expanded it to also do a brunch
7:27
on Sunday after service. And so the whole church
7:29
eats together after church every Sunday and it's
7:32
open for the community. So there are folks who
7:35
come in, maybe they drink coffee and hang out
7:37
during the worship service. They don't go to
7:38
worship, but then it's a nice warm place with
7:41
good coffee or, you know, okay, church coffee.
7:44
And then we eat brunch together. at the same
7:47
tables like it's fully integrated and beautiful
7:49
that way so it's a church that's really really
7:51
committed to the community so when i was interviewing
7:54
they said hey we want to do all you know really
7:57
open to where god's leading us in the future
8:00
but don't touch the breakfast or the brunch you
8:01
know because that for them is so vital of who
8:04
they are and i think it's reflective of their
8:06
character and the community that i'm situated
8:08
in Wow, I really love that. It also sounds like
8:12
you have such an interesting mix of people that
8:15
you're constantly working with. And I imagine
8:17
for preaching, that can be maybe a bit of a challenge
8:20
at times to know, like, who are all the different
8:23
people who are sitting literally in the pews
8:25
who have all these different life experiences
8:27
and how that can maybe be a challenge. So I know
8:30
it sounds like you're. trying to do good, you
8:33
know, exegesis of the people in your pews. But
8:36
what other kind of tools, resources are you using
8:40
in your sermon prep process? Yeah, that's a great
8:43
question. My process, you know, I'm relying on,
8:47
yeah, relationship with people is really vital.
8:50
Relying on lots of resources. I guess my process
8:56
looks like I plan way in advance. Not everybody
9:01
does that. I found it to be really helpful. I
9:02
try to be like six months out as far as texts
9:05
and titles and themes. We don't usually use the
9:08
lectionary, but sometimes I do, especially in
9:12
certain parts of the church calendar. But being
9:14
that far planned out is really vital for me because
9:17
I could waste a whole day just like stressing
9:20
over what to preach on. So like I go with a friend
9:23
who pastors another local church and we like
9:26
plan out together. And we do these little preaching
9:29
retreats so I can get everything kind of, okay,
9:31
here's the trajectory. That way when Monday comes,
9:35
I know I pick up, okay, here's what we're preaching
9:38
this week and here's where we're situated. And
9:41
so from there on Mondays, I really try to just
9:43
focus on the text, write down my own questions,
9:45
play around maybe in the languages as I need
9:47
to. And I don't try to touch outside resources
9:50
at that point. It's mostly just what questions
9:54
does this bring up? think about it in the eyes
9:56
of my people, try to picture some of my people
9:58
as they're wrestling with this text, and get
10:00
kind of that all going. And then from there,
10:03
Tuesday, Wednesday, I'm spending some time with
10:05
commentaries and other resources. I have certain
10:10
favorites. I love feasting on the Gospels. Feasting
10:13
on the Word in general has been really helpful.
10:16
Smith and Helwes has a great series. I use a
10:18
lot of theirs. And I really try to be intentional
10:21
about... commentaries that come from different
10:23
perspectives so people of color and women like
10:27
it's easy to find old white dude commentaries
10:31
but it's so valuable to have diverse voices in
10:35
their perspectives on the text and so I really
10:37
try to be intentional about including those as
10:40
well as trying doing intensive reading and asking
10:43
lots of questions and then I say by Thursday,
10:47
but the way my schedule is now, it's by Friday.
10:49
By Friday, I have a draft sermon done that I
10:54
then send via Google Drive to several lay people
10:58
and a couple of ministers who aren't in the church.
11:03
And then they give me feedback and we kind of
11:05
have a dialogue about it and it helps. I love
11:07
it for lots of ways. Some of those folks also
11:10
preach or will preach or discerning their own
11:13
calls. They come from different perspectives
11:16
and backgrounds and experiences. And so they're
11:18
asking questions and giving feedback that have
11:20
places that I might not be thinking about. And
11:23
they're refining me and I'm refining them. And
11:26
it just becomes kind of a discipleship process
11:29
for all of us together. So they give me feedback.
11:31
And then Saturday night, I kind of look at that
11:33
feedback and respond to it if I haven't yet.
11:37
And then Sunday morning, I practice it out loud.
11:40
And that's how it goes. And then we start over
11:43
the next week. So it's your process, I think,
11:47
is, you know, maybe a little similar to some
11:49
people's. But I think the interesting part of
11:51
it is this feedback, which I know is part of
11:54
the motivation for why we're even doing this
11:56
podcast is because it's a model that you and
11:57
I shared. And then I think we both kind of got
12:00
hooked on it. So it's really interesting to see
12:02
the way that you're incorporating lay people,
12:04
because, you know, as a solo pastor in a small
12:07
congregation, the way that you're still being
12:09
intentional about collaboration, I think, is
12:11
really cool. And it gives me a lot of hope for
12:15
like, oh, this actually is something that works
12:16
not just in large contexts, but in small contexts
12:19
and in lots of diverse ways. So that's really
12:22
neat. We're going to be looking at a sermon that
12:25
you preached during the season of Lent called
12:27
Argue with Heaven. And I just have to ask about
12:30
the title because I happen to know that you are
12:34
a fan of this musician who has this title for
12:39
a song. So I'm wondering what's the inspiration
12:41
for? how you get your sermon titles, how this
12:45
all happens, especially since I have a little
12:48
bit of background knowledge to know that you
12:49
really hate naming things. So tell me about this.
12:53
I do hate naming things. I like to name things
12:55
what they are, which is helpful, but also a challenge
12:58
in church. Like I don't, I struggle with like
13:01
anything besides a descriptive name. And that
13:05
tends to be a challenge for me for sermons too,
13:07
because I'm like, I don't, I don't know. I know
13:09
that it's helpful for people to have a catchy
13:11
name. I just don't. I don't like it. So yeah,
13:14
you are wise to notice the name is related to
13:17
a song by the singer -songwriter David Ramirez.
13:21
His music deeply shaped me. And I had just seen
13:23
him a few weeks before and his new album was
13:26
out. So I was just listening to him a lot. And
13:27
in this song, it's one of my favorite songs.
13:30
And he talks about like arriving at the pearly
13:34
gates or whatever and arguing with heaven about,
13:38
you know, life. eternity and how he lived or
13:42
how he should have lived or whatever. And I've
13:45
always loved this sort of like a protest anthem.
13:48
You know, he's going to live full of love. And
13:51
then if that's not how it's supposed to be, he'll
13:53
argue about it. And I think that fits with Job.
13:56
So yeah, I stole the title from that song. I
13:59
was going to quote the song in the sermon. I
14:01
ended up not doing that, but I still like the
14:02
title. So I kept it. You don't want to sing for
14:05
your people? Never. They don't want that more
14:07
than I don't want that. So in your recap of Job,
14:10
as you kind of get into it, you talk about retributive
14:13
theology. And I kind of picked up that, you know,
14:15
maybe this is a terminology that you've used
14:18
throughout the series that you've kind of unpacked
14:20
for people. This is, I think, maybe the third
14:22
in this series. Retributive theology is some
14:25
pretty hefty academic jargon. You explained it
14:29
pretty briefly here. I got the impression you
14:31
had explained it earlier in the series. But my
14:33
question is, How do you determine when it's appropriate
14:36
to use some of this technical academic terminology
14:40
in preaching? And why did you think that using
14:42
this term in particular for this sermon was really
14:45
important? That's a great question. I struggle
14:48
with this sometimes. When I was doing journalism,
14:52
I loved journalism because you try to write at
14:54
an eighth grade level. And so it makes it really
14:58
accessible for people. And I think that's really
15:00
helpful for preaching. So, but that doesn't mean
15:04
you don't ever like use big words or talk about
15:06
something complicated. It just means you have
15:07
to explain it really clearly. And so I used retributive
15:13
theology throughout this whole series. Every
15:15
intro to every sermon, I talked about retributive
15:17
theology because it's the underlying thing of
15:21
Job that Job is critiquing. And there's lots
15:24
of things in Job, but that's the main thing it's
15:26
critiquing. And it's something that persists
15:29
to this day. It's like, Good things happen to
15:31
good people. Bad things happen to bad people.
15:33
You know, you're rich because God thinks you're
15:36
better than somebody else or you're suffering
15:38
and it must be your fault. This is this. That's
15:41
what retributive theology is. And it's super
15:43
unhealthy and damaging. And yet it's everywhere.
15:46
And we even like sometimes believe in ourselves.
15:49
And so I wanted to give it a name that was both
15:54
descriptive and it's like traditionally called
15:57
that. but also something people could hold on
15:59
to. And so when they see it later in the world,
16:02
or they feel it seeping in on themselves, well,
16:05
what did I do to deserve this? They can be like,
16:07
oh yeah, that's retributive theology. That's
16:08
not how this works. And so I thought it was worth
16:12
it. Sometimes it's not to be that academic. It's
16:19
okay to use it. The key is to explain it. And
16:21
sometimes because it's novel, it helps people's
16:24
ears kind of perk up to be like, Oh, what is
16:26
that? You know? Yeah. Is it effective? I don't
16:31
know if it was effective, but I felt like it
16:33
was important to give some language to that underlying
16:35
thing. So we had this shared thing to talk about.
16:40
Yeah, I think you explained it really well. I
16:42
think that's one of the challenges in preaching
16:44
is, you know, especially now we've talked to
16:47
some already on the podcast that like, you can't
16:50
assume. as much as maybe we were able to in years
16:53
past about the biblical literacy of people who
16:57
are listening. But I think the other side of
17:00
that too is we have to give people credit, right?
17:03
Like they can understand a whole lot more than
17:06
we're really giving them credit for. And I think
17:08
this is an example of you really kind of towing
17:11
the line of trying to give them language that's
17:16
helpful. And also not talking down to them, but
17:19
also not assuming that they're knowing things
17:22
that maybe is just not as common anymore for
17:24
people to know. So I think you did this really
17:26
well. In case you were worried about it. Thanks.
17:31
Yeah. I mean, I think there's a difference between
17:33
like maybe there is less biblical literacy or
17:37
familiarity with all the stories or all the language.
17:40
But that doesn't mean people are dumb. Like it
17:42
just means they may have had exposure to it.
17:45
Maybe they didn't grow up. going to Sunday school
17:47
or doing Bible memorization or singing VBS songs
17:51
or whatever the exposure was in the past that
17:53
people maybe had. They maybe don't have that,
17:56
but they're certainly all smart enough to know
17:58
what retributive theology is. We just have to
18:00
introduce it and explain what it is. And that
18:03
was the goal here. So there's a clip that I want
18:08
to listen to where you talk about the lies that
18:10
we sometimes use to defend our opinions about
18:13
God. You do this pretty early on in your message.
18:17
Job clearly has had enough of his friend's easy
18:20
answer. He knows that his suffering is not a
18:25
result of his mistakes or sinfulness. These friends
18:29
are so worried about defending their idea of
18:33
God. They refuse to listen to their friend. They
18:39
want a world and they want a God that they can
18:41
control. A God that is simple and easy. They
18:46
want it to be. So that if they just do good things
18:50
and follow the rules, that nothing bad will ever
18:53
happen to them. And while it's good to do good
18:56
things, it is a blessing. Pain and struggle still
19:01
comes for all of us. And because Job's experience,
19:07
his discomfort makes them uncomfortable about
19:10
their own ideas with God, they start trying to
19:13
defend God with what Job will call lies. We can
19:19
do this too. When we see someone with an experience
19:24
or questions that maybe threaten how we understand
19:28
God or our world or our own opinions, we jump
19:32
to defense. Goodness, don't we defend our own
19:34
opinions. What lies do we tell to defend ourselves,
19:41
to defend our ideas about God? Any God that needs
19:46
the defense of humans is not much of a God, right?
19:50
It doesn't seem like a God worth following to
19:52
me. And that's Job's argument too. He said, you're
19:55
making God too small, too controllable, too weak.
19:58
Let me speak directly to God and let me tell
20:00
the truth. I love that you touch on this problem
20:04
that is in a lot of ways, very universal, right?
20:08
Defending our ideas about God. And one of the
20:10
things that I really appreciate about this is
20:13
because I think, especially, you know, in today's
20:16
cultural political climate, I think people who
20:19
are on the far right or far left have a really
20:21
bad habit of like pointing to the other person
20:23
and being like, no, your view is wrong. And so
20:26
this is really something that's like almost an
20:28
even playing field to say like, actually, maybe
20:31
part of the problem here is us. trying to defend
20:35
this in some ways like stating that we have the
20:38
whole truth about about who god is so i really
20:42
appreciate that you did that but in when i was
20:45
listening to this the first time i also was having
20:47
this thought where i was like yes but i think
20:49
part of the work of the church and part of what
20:53
we're doing as preachers is in a way trying to
20:56
state some truth about who god is It is helping
21:02
to create or construct people's ideas about God.
21:05
So I'm wondering, you know, did you have any
21:08
sort of wrestling about this? You know, this
21:12
this tension of saying we shouldn't be quick
21:14
to defend our own ideas about God with an understanding
21:18
that in some way, the very task of preaching
21:21
that you're doing is helping to construct or
21:25
create people's ideas about God. Yeah, no, it's
21:29
a great question. Yeah, I think it's important
21:33
that we have ideas about God and that we construct
21:36
them and do that from the guidance of the Spirit
21:40
and community and the scriptures, for sure. But
21:45
I'm just really big on holding those ideas with
21:49
open hands. And in this text, I mean, what's
21:54
happening here is the ideas that they're holding
21:57
on to, there's such a lack of... willingness
21:59
to hear from anybody else, that they're just
22:02
kind of like yelling at Job, you're wrong, and
22:04
they won't listen to Job's real pain. And so
22:07
Job has experienced something that Job knows
22:10
to be true. And his friends can't take it in
22:13
because they're holding their ideas about God
22:17
so tightly that they're not willing to put them
22:19
in dialogue with the reality around them. And
22:23
so when I think about how The task of preaching
22:29
is to help us, yes, create people's ideas. Yeah,
22:33
absolutely. We should be doing, I mean, that's
22:35
what we're doing. But at the same time, are we
22:38
doing it in a way where there's room for nuance
22:42
and wrestling and questioning and an openness
22:45
to being surprised or convicted or challenged?
22:49
I mean, Jesus teaches in parables not to give
22:52
like, here's the easy answer. Boom. It's like.
22:54
I mean, what do we do with this? How do we work
22:56
with this? How do we hold this? And so really,
22:58
I think that that was my intention, right? Of
23:01
how do we not hold on to our ideas of God so
23:08
tightly while still holding on to each other
23:10
and to God really tightly. Yeah. One of my favorite
23:15
professors in seminary used to say, when we come
23:20
up with these... differing opinions or differing
23:23
views about god maybe it's not that they're in
23:25
contradiction but it's a paradox and so embracing
23:28
this idea that like there are maybe multiple
23:31
points of view about who god is and the way that
23:34
god operates and maybe part of the lesson here
23:39
is as you're saying hold a little looser to the
23:43
the things that we've constructed about god which
23:46
i think then makes us in a place where we're
23:50
actually able to receive other opinions perspectives
23:53
viewpoints but it's really hard I think to do
23:56
that when we're sitting here saying like oh I've
23:59
got the monopoly on who God is so I love that
24:01
you started your message this way and the next
24:05
clip that I want to look at you bring up this
24:07
phrase all truth is God's truth and you unpack
24:10
it a little bit in college one of my professors
24:13
was asked by a classmate about learning from
24:16
sources outside of scripture Do we listen from
24:19
the wisdom of science and experience and philosophy?
24:25
Does that make us uncomfortable? What if it challenges
24:28
our held beliefs? What if it causes us to re
24:31
-examine the things we think and believe? And
24:33
my professor said, all truth is God's truth.
24:38
All truth belongs to God. We as Christians understand,
24:43
we interpret, we refine what we learn and what
24:46
we discover in the light of Christ. The truth
24:50
comes from the divine. It's nothing to be afraid
24:53
of. Tell the truth. You're really good at bringing
24:58
out maybe the questions or the tension that people
25:01
are wrestling with. I think you do this so well
25:05
so often where you set up like this is what maybe
25:08
we're all feeling. And here's a way. out of this
25:11
or a new way of thinking about this. And I see
25:13
you doing that a lot in this clip. So why did
25:16
you think that your listeners really needed to
25:18
hear this message? Yeah, I think we all need
25:22
to hear. I mean, the writers of Job certainly
25:24
thought we needed to hear it because there's
25:28
this prevailing thing of like, if we could just
25:33
have a framework that always works all the time,
25:35
wouldn't that make me feel safe and comfortable?
25:38
And when you're engaging with the divine and
25:40
then later, God's going to be like, were you
25:43
there when I hooked the Leviathan? Job is showing
25:46
us that having these neat little frameworks are
25:51
insufficient for the human experience with God
25:55
and understanding God. And all that we then end
25:58
up doing is creating a God that's too small,
26:00
that's too much in our own image. And rather
26:03
than getting to experience the fullness. of God
26:07
and God the way that we need God. And so I think,
26:11
you know, for my congregation and a lot of folks,
26:14
we have a lot of folks who are coming out of
26:16
different church expressions and maybe had some
26:18
challenges or church hurt or whatever and are
26:21
finding us. And so they have varying experiences
26:25
and relationships with how they think about both
26:28
God and scripture and all of that. So being able
26:30
to help them, again, hold things maybe a little
26:35
bit looser. Not to let go of anything essential
26:38
like Jesus, but to think, is my framework helpful
26:44
or is it shrinking God in a way that's maybe
26:47
hurting other people? And that's exactly what
26:49
Job's friends are doing, right? Their framework
26:50
is so small and it makes them feel good and it
26:54
ends up hurting their neighbors in the same way
26:56
that like when we are at a funeral and people
26:59
say all kinds of nonsense things like, you know,
27:01
everything happens for a reason and, you know.
27:05
whatever to make it. And that just dismisses
27:08
somebody else's experience in grief for your
27:10
own comfort. And like, goodness, the last thing
27:12
that we need is to dismiss other people so that
27:15
we feel comfortable about our thoughts about
27:18
God. Like who cares? How can we be right both
27:21
with God and each other? And so that's why I
27:22
was trying to like take them to that place. And
27:25
I think my congregation needed that. Yeah, I
27:28
think that's helpful. I think another thing that
27:30
I find beneficial about. taking them to this
27:33
place of all truth is God's truth is it really
27:36
takes away some of the fear I think that we have
27:39
of like the outside or the other or the something
27:44
that hasn't been baptized by the church you know
27:46
and it's a real freedom to say no actually like
27:50
there are good things that God has given us in
27:53
the world and in other people and in science
27:56
and in You know, just what it means to be human
28:01
and to do life in the world and that those things
28:04
actually are good and beautiful on their own
28:07
and we can learn from them and not have to be
28:10
afraid of those things. Because I know sometimes
28:12
when I am in this moment where it just feels
28:16
very overwhelming to hear, like, I don't know
28:18
what to believe or what sources to listen to.
28:22
And there's a real breath of fresh air to say,
28:24
like, actually, like, God has given us so much
28:26
more. to learn from than we often, I think, give
28:29
God credit for. So how has embracing this idea
28:33
that all truth is God's truth impacted your faith
28:37
or your preaching, you think? I think growing
28:41
up and, you know, I think just being younger
28:43
in general, like really strict frameworks are
28:46
more helpful. I really used to think about Christianity
28:48
as being all about being right and making sure
28:52
you have all the right beliefs. And it got to
28:54
a point where I realized that I'm wrong about
28:57
a lot of stuff. Like all of us are going to stand
29:00
before God and like be wrong about all kinds
29:02
of stuff. And that's okay. You know, that it's
29:08
more about being right with God and right with
29:09
each other than having everything like fitting
29:13
in a neat system that we can say we figured God
29:16
out. Like that God doesn't need to be figured
29:20
out, but rather God is to be known and experienced.
29:25
Like that's a paradigm shift that I needed for
29:29
my own faith. And I mean, there are core beliefs
29:33
and confessions that I hold to and that we express
29:36
as a congregation. You know, like we believe
29:39
Jesus is Lord and fully God and died and rose
29:41
again. Like, yes. But there are other things
29:47
that like we're going to be wrong about and we're
29:50
doing our best to follow Jesus and ask the Spirit
29:53
to help us in that. And that has really helped
29:55
me keep the main thing, the main thing. So like,
29:57
what's the main thing? Okay, Jesus, ministry,
30:02
life, death, resurrection. Okay, so from there,
30:05
where do we go from there? Well, we'll keep that
30:07
thing, the main thing. And then we have lots
30:08
of room to think about how we're interpreting
30:10
other things. I think Augustine said, you know,
30:13
Augustine, like, you know, 300s, Augustine said,
30:15
like, if... science contradicts your interpretation
30:18
of scripture. And it's important that he said
30:19
interpretation. We sometimes forget that all
30:21
scripture is interpreted. If science conflicts
30:24
with your interpretation of scripture, you might
30:26
need to reinterpret, right? And I mean, that
30:30
was a really long time ago to say something like
30:31
that. But I think it's true. Like, oh yeah, there
30:35
are things that we might discover that make us
30:36
say, huh, what do we do with that? And that's
30:39
part of our faith journey. Yeah, it reminds me
30:41
a little bit of Aurelia in her episode talking
30:44
about the Wesleyan quadrilateral and these different
30:48
sources that we use and her recognition of the
30:51
fact that sometimes our own experience gets lost
30:54
in that and that actually there is so much wisdom
30:56
to be gained from our experience and the experiences
30:59
of others. And I think taking this posture certainly
31:02
makes us more compassionate towards others and
31:05
towards outside perspectives. And it doesn't
31:09
have to be a scary thing. That's something I
31:11
think I'm still continuing to learn that like
31:12
this, this is actually a gift. This doesn't have
31:14
to be a place of fear. And I just want to add
31:17
like in Job, like the whole point here is Job
31:22
is telling the truth. So it's not just like whatever
31:24
you believe is whatever you believe in, whatever
31:26
you feel is whatever you feel or whatever. Like
31:27
Job's like, I know God, right? And I know my
31:31
experience. And you're saying I did something
31:33
to deserve all of this calamity, but I know the
31:36
truth. and i know that that's not true it's not
31:39
true to god's character and it's not true to
31:41
the experience and and what i have lived and
31:45
so it's not this openness to just whatever but
31:48
it's a commitment to truth and i think that's
31:52
so vital because the the friends have have let
31:56
their framework blind them to the truth and blind
32:01
them to what's real, what reality is. And I'm
32:04
very into Andor right now. So spoiler alert for
32:07
Andor, episode nine, which I watched last night.
32:11
But the rebel leader makes her speech. And she
32:16
says, the death of truth is the ultimate victory
32:19
of evil. When truth leaves us, when we let it
32:21
slip away, when it's ripped from our hands, we
32:23
become vulnerable to the appetite of whatever
32:25
monster screams the loudest, which is great writing.
32:28
But also like so true. So what has happened here
32:32
is Job's friends have let truth slip away. And
32:37
the screaming voice that says, be comfortable,
32:39
be in control. This couldn't happen to you has
32:42
now taken over their reality. And we are so susceptible
32:45
to that too. So how do we stay committed to truth,
32:49
the character of Jesus, the community that we
32:52
have, so that those screaming monsters don't...
32:56
drown out the truth and let it slip away. Yeah,
33:00
thanks for clarifying that. I also think, you
33:03
know, it's the context of the relationship that
33:06
Job has with God that even allows him to be able
33:09
to argue with heaven. Like, you don't argue or
33:13
yell or question or rage against the machine
33:15
if you don't have like an attachment to it, if
33:17
you don't have a commitment to it. And so I think
33:20
that's one of the huge differences I see in Job
33:23
between Job and his friends is that like, No,
33:26
Job has a deep commitment, a deep love to God
33:29
and has a knowledge of like who God is. And that's
33:33
why he's able to question is because this seems
33:35
out of character for what he knows about God.
33:38
And I think that you're right. I think that is
33:40
such an important part of Job's story. So you
33:43
make this connection between Job's experience
33:46
and the practice of protest. And I'd like to
33:49
listen to that. As Baptists here at BCWC, we
33:53
are part of a larger Christian tent called Protestants,
33:57
which emerged from a protest, that's where the
34:00
name comes from, against things in the church
34:04
at the time that the Reformers believed to be
34:06
not how they should be. They reformed, and they
34:10
protested, and they pushed towards what they
34:12
believed was true about God and humanity. All
34:16
that to say, Job and our Reformers, Join us in
34:22
a good company of those who protest the things
34:26
that should not be. Many Baptists have done this
34:29
throughout history. In movements of protest for
34:32
civil rights, women's equality, and racial justice,
34:37
and how our partners, the Association of Welcoming
34:40
and Affirming Baptists, do so today for LGBTQ
34:42
issues. These protests come out of a conviction
34:45
that the world is not how it should be. And that
34:50
we can have a role in advocating, in fighting
34:53
for a world where people, our neighbors, are
34:57
valued as on earth as it is in heaven. See, because
35:02
of Job's connection to God, he feels freedom
35:05
to protest the situation, to stand before God
35:09
because he believes that God cares. He pleads
35:14
his case. Now we know. That there are things
35:19
in this world and in this life that are not the
35:21
way they should be. There's something deep within
35:23
us, placed there by God, reflecting God's very
35:26
image that tells us, this is not the way things
35:29
should be. Another one of my professors, Cornelius
35:34
Plantinga, writes, we know things are out of
35:37
joint. Human life is not the way it's supposed
35:40
to be. But precisely because we know that, we
35:43
also know something about the way things are
35:45
supposed to be. I really love that you talk about
35:49
the history of protest. I think sometimes there's
35:54
this disconnection between why we're protesting
35:57
and why that practice is important and then our
36:00
convictions as people of faith or people who
36:03
are a part of a church. So I love that you talk
36:05
about that and then relate it especially to the
36:07
Baptist tradition, the Protestant tradition,
36:10
and you're drawing all those connections. So
36:13
why do you think it's important for your listeners
36:17
to understand that connection between protesting
36:19
and scripture or tradition and history? Yeah,
36:23
so a lot of my congregation didn't grow up Baptist,
36:29
they don't have a lot of Baptist context or history,
36:31
knowledge. And I think that's typical of just,
36:37
you know, the United States, and I'm in the Northeast,
36:40
just pretty post Christian post church kind of
36:43
context. And so I think we can make assumptions
36:46
about Christianity from this like mass Christian
36:50
culture or observing from the outside and miss
36:53
some of the historical realities. And I think
36:57
that in our current moment, there's this kind
37:00
of emphasis among a lot of Christians of like,
37:02
well, you know, it's important that we stay out
37:05
of politics. And I totally agree that we shouldn't
37:08
be partisan. But I do think like Protestants
37:12
have this history of like speaking up. whether
37:14
it's against the church, whether it's against,
37:17
you know, the powers that be or whatever to say,
37:19
Hey, this is not how it's supposed to be. And
37:22
I think that's really like helpful when the world
37:25
is not how it's supposed to be to like, say it
37:27
out loud and say to each other, like, Hey, no,
37:30
like actually that's kind of, I think, I just
37:32
feel like in a lot of the times we're not saying
37:36
like, Hey, you know what? As Christians, we believe
37:38
that like death isn't the end, that death is
37:42
actually really bad. And it doesn't win. And
37:45
I think sometimes because talking about the resurrection
37:47
or heaven feels so miraculous or miracle or,
37:51
you know, like, well, I don't know, maybe that's
37:53
not grounded enough in whatever what people know,
37:55
like, that's what we believe. And I think it's
37:57
really vital to like name, hey, guess what? This
38:00
world around you that feels like it's not the
38:02
way it's supposed to be because it's not. But
38:05
there's something in us that knows that. And
38:07
we have a role to play in saying, hey, this isn't
38:10
how things are supposed to go. And isn't there
38:12
something? better and and how can we be a part
38:15
of you know on earth as it is in heaven living
38:18
into that now in our context and in our community
38:20
yeah i love that i think there's real power in
38:23
being able to say this is not how it should be
38:26
this is not how it could be i think is even you
38:29
know a more pointed way of saying it that like
38:31
we protest because we have a hope because we
38:34
have an understanding that like this could be
38:36
different this could look different this is this
38:39
is what we're striving for I am thinking back
38:43
to earlier in your message, though, where you
38:46
warn against defending our views about God. And
38:49
then this element of like protest is such an
38:52
interesting contrast to that, because I think
38:54
you're you're really, again, kind of trying to
38:58
thread the needle really carefully about how
39:00
we distinguish between the practice of protest
39:03
and being very loud and very vocal about like,
39:06
this is not what we believe God to be. This is
39:09
not what we believe the world should be. And
39:12
on the flip side of that, not defending our views
39:15
about God loudly. So how do you distinguish between
39:20
the practice of protest and then on the flip
39:23
side, defending our views about God really loudly?
39:28
Yeah. Well, it's a great question. There is this
39:32
tension here, right? And I think it comes out
39:34
of what it is that's kind of sparking that protest.
39:41
And then how it's applied, right? So Job's friends
39:45
are defending God to make themselves feel comfortable,
39:50
right? And I think when we're saying, hey, the
39:53
world is not how it's supposed to be, you know,
39:56
we're getting that from God's very character,
39:58
right? So there's a difference of saying, here's
40:00
like what I know about God's character, which
40:02
is where Job is saying, hey, this isn't how it's
40:04
supposed to be. And then there's a difference
40:06
of saying, hey, this is what... makes me feel
40:08
safe and warm and cozy and comfortable is what
40:10
Job's friends are when they're pointing the finger
40:12
at him. And so there really is that tension.
40:16
And so being able to like wrestle and what we
40:21
believe, like that's part of our heritage, not
40:23
just as Protestants, but as people, people of
40:25
God going all the way back to like, you know,
40:27
Jacob wrestling and being renamed Israel, which
40:30
means to wrestle, right? Like there is this sense
40:33
of in our faith, we're supposed to be wrestling
40:36
and trying to, come up with our own thoughts
40:40
about who God is and dealing with God's revelation.
40:44
But then how do we hold on to those things? And
40:47
what is our posture when we are discovering those
40:51
things? And are we using that to help other people,
40:54
to lift other people up, to liberate people?
40:56
Are we using that as a weapon to keep ourselves
40:58
comfortable or keep ourselves feeling secure
41:01
or whatever? So is it a tool to help? others
41:04
and to deliberate? Or is it a tool that we use
41:06
just for isolation and self -preservation? And
41:10
I think that's the distinction. But you're right.
41:12
It is kind of a line there that I probably need
41:16
to think more about in how I communicate it.
41:18
That's really helpful. That is one question that
41:20
I had is like, where are you wrestling at all
41:21
with that tension? But I think your comment about
41:25
it being from what your position is, like what
41:28
is your motivation for this is really helpful
41:30
too. And I think I... I see protest as like coming
41:33
from a place of love, it's coming from a place
41:35
of like care. Whereas I think defending our views
41:40
really loudly comes from a place, really a fear
41:42
of like, I'm afraid of losing this thing or of
41:46
not having control of the narrative. But that's
41:50
really helpful and definitely something I think
41:51
that Job asks us to wrestle with. So there's
41:55
this moment where you talk about Job daydreaming,
41:59
if you will, about resurrection. I'd love to
42:03
listen to that. Joe begins this protest of, why
42:08
do you even bother with us? Life is short. Too
42:11
few days and too many troubles. We can relate
42:14
to that. And as he's observing how in creation,
42:19
in the springtime, new life seems to be emerging,
42:22
a tree producing sprouts, could it be he dares
42:27
to imagine that this could happen for people
42:30
too? Could there be more? If God really is good
42:36
and beautiful and true, perhaps there is more
42:40
goodness and hope ahead than he had dared imagine
42:43
before. Perhaps that is the only hope he can
42:49
cling to. Here in this chapter of Job is one
42:54
of the earliest whispers in the Scriptures towards
42:57
this idea of a resurrection. An idea that we
43:02
will eventually be made new, new life raised
43:08
from death. It's an idea that would eventually
43:11
be adopted by many Jewish rabbis and thinkers.
43:14
It's an idea that then would be revealed to us
43:16
in Christ. It had not been a standard belief,
43:22
but Job's connection to God and proximity to
43:26
his own suffering created space. For the Spirit
43:31
guided creatively to take him towards God's plan,
43:36
yet unrevealed. Job's connection in prayer life,
43:42
his life with God, tells him that if God is really
43:46
good, and this level of suffering can happen
43:50
to someone of no fault of their own, well, this
43:52
can't be the end of the story. God can't be done.
43:58
And this protest, leads him to a new perception.
44:03
So this connection you made about Job imagining
44:07
resurrection, maybe for the first time that we
44:10
see in scripture, was really blowing my mind.
44:15
You did this and I just sat there, I think, with
44:17
my mouth open for a minute. I've never thought
44:20
about this before, never heard this preached
44:21
before. And, you know, it's interesting because...
44:26
I think like resurrection and the concept of
44:29
that, not just as a theological abstract thing,
44:33
but as like a practical lived reality is something
44:36
that has shaped and informed my faith probably
44:39
more so than any other thing. And so the fact
44:42
that you brought this in new element of something
44:45
that I thought I knew a lot about was impressive
44:48
and I'm thankful and it's blowing my mind still.
44:52
I want to know, how did you come to this idea?
44:55
Tell me about that discovery process. Yeah, it
44:58
was not intentional. So whenever you're preaching,
45:02
if you think you're preaching something that's
45:05
brand new, like you've discovered something that
45:07
no one's ever discovered before, it means you're
45:08
probably wrong, right? It means you probably
45:10
found something that isn't supported by data,
45:15
isn't supported by the research, isn't supported
45:17
by academia. But sometimes you... discover things
45:22
that lots of people have talked about or written
45:24
about, but you've just never seen. It happens
45:27
all the time. I mean, all the time, just reading
45:31
scripture personally, you'll see things like,
45:34
oh, I never saw it that way, just because of
45:35
how you're situated in your experience, your
45:37
time or whatever. And so I don't know that I've
45:40
ever preached on Job 14. I wasn't even, I don't
45:44
think I was even planning to go into that chapter,
45:46
but I was just kind of reading through Job as
45:48
I was there. And I just like, man, this is a
45:49
really beautiful poem. and was kind of intrigued
45:54
by some of the poetry of it. And then as I was,
45:57
then I saw this part of like, wow, this is really
46:00
interesting. And then, and then all like doing
46:04
the actual study and the research and reading
46:06
lots of people was like, oh no, that that's what
46:08
people are saying. Like, yeah, this seems to
46:10
be the earliest glimpse of this idea of resurrection.
46:13
And so it was backed up in the research then.
46:15
And it was like, oh, this has so essential to
46:18
bring forth. And it was so helpful to me and
46:22
has been so helpful to me because it's the first
46:24
time where resurrection is not something that
46:27
was like, oh, Jesus did it. What a surprise.
46:30
We didn't see it coming. Even the disciples don't
46:31
see it coming, even though he said it's coming.
46:34
And well, now we know about the resurrection
46:36
because it happened. But Job got to it from another
46:38
way, which, you know, so does like Isaiah and
46:41
stuff too. But there's this idea of like, for
46:43
Job, it came out of the suffering and out of
46:46
knowing who God is. sanctified imagination of
46:52
knowing, well, maybe there has to be more. There
46:56
has to be more to the story because of what I
46:57
know about God. And it just really, it really
47:02
moved me and was really fun to write and kind
47:05
of wrestle with and play with and kind of bring
47:06
that forth to people because in Job itself, I
47:10
think is just underpreached. I think we, we like
47:12
the intro and we like even chapter 40, even though
47:15
it's difficult. But in that middle of Job where
47:19
it's just back and forth and back and forth and
47:20
back and forth with friends in Job, I think we
47:22
ignore it because it's a lot, but there's some
47:26
gold in there. And that's what happens when you
47:28
spend time in the text. You can really find some
47:31
stuff sometimes that is often missed in our normal
47:35
church preaching. Yeah, like I said, it was really
47:39
profound, really well done, and something that
47:41
I am still continuing to think about. And I love
47:44
that this idea of resurrection is coming. from
47:47
a book that is known for like despair and wrestling
47:51
and you know the depths of you know human helplessness
47:56
um and all of that but you know you're you're
48:00
talking about this um this idea of resurrection
48:04
coming from this. And I see in there a temptation
48:07
to use this as a justification for Job's suffering.
48:11
I think you, you already mentioned it earlier
48:13
where, you know, sometimes at funerals we have
48:16
like really bad theology and people are just
48:18
saying things about, you know, trying to throw
48:21
things at the wall, if you will, to justify suffering
48:25
that doesn't make sense to us. So I'm wondering,
48:30
were you conscious? of that tension how are you
48:32
wrestling with this maybe in presenting it to
48:35
say like resurrection is this beautiful image
48:38
that's coming from a place of suffering but that
48:41
doesn't necessarily mean it's a justification
48:42
for it yeah i did think about that tension um
48:46
because this idea of well one day we'll float
48:50
off to heaven so what happens in this world doesn't
48:53
really matter has been used as a weapon to justify
48:55
things like slavery um nationalist movements
48:58
it's been used to justify like destroying the
49:02
earth, right? And so that's a problem. And so,
49:06
yeah, I was thinking about, you know, how do
49:08
we not just become like Job's friends and say,
49:11
well, here's an easy answer. You know, this is
49:14
really terrible, but you're going to go to heaven
49:15
one day, so it's fine. It's not really that big
49:17
of a deal. And the text doesn't do that. It doesn't
49:21
ever say like, he doesn't say, well, because
49:23
of this, maybe there might be more. I guess that
49:26
means my suffering doesn't suck. Like, no, it's
49:28
still awful. There's not. I don't think the text
49:31
allows for any justification here. And I don't
49:33
think that's what's happening with Job's poetry,
49:35
because it's coming from Job out of Job's own
49:37
experience, not from like the friends trying
49:40
to make themselves feel better. And so, yeah,
49:44
I think that there's a tension there. I just
49:46
think it's important to name what's actually
49:48
happening, that this is not a text that's justifying
49:52
suffering. It's instead imagining if God really
49:57
is good. and loving and powerful as Job believes
50:01
God to be, well, then what, right? And then as
50:05
Christians, you know, that gives us a space to
50:08
say, oh, and look, see how Jesus shows us that
50:11
Job was totally onto something here. You know,
50:15
heaven doesn't justify eternal life, whatever,
50:19
that doesn't justify the suffering, but it does
50:23
help us navigate it and walk through it, for
50:27
sure. Yeah, and I think it is a testament to
50:30
just the goodness of God, frankly. Like, it's
50:34
not a justification for human suffering, but
50:37
it's a testament to just how good God is. Like,
50:40
just how much love and how much grace and how
50:44
much goodness there is. I see that coming through
50:47
a lot in this. So toward the end of your message,
50:50
you read John 21, the story that takes place
50:54
right after the resurrection, where Jesus invites
50:56
the disciples to have breakfast with him. And
50:59
you draw this really interesting connection between
51:02
that story and the beginning of Job. In their
51:06
darkest time, in the midst of their deepest fear,
51:09
sure that God could never really care for them
51:12
again, trust them again, Jesus shows up. And
51:17
when Peter... The one who had denied discovers
51:20
that it is his Lord. He jumps into the sea and
51:23
swims 100 yards. Any of y 'all can swim 100 yards?
51:28
These disciples, who have seen their Lord killed,
51:32
see him at the shore. He doesn't beat them up.
51:37
He doesn't get into a theological fist fight.
51:40
He doesn't say, you deserve this or that. He
51:44
invites them to a meal. A meal to symbolize their
51:48
unity. A meal to remind them of the last meal
51:51
they ate together before He died. And I believe
51:57
in this moment, we see how the battle between
52:01
evil and suffering and our good God is complete.
52:08
See, at the beginning of Job, the accuser that
52:11
Satan had said no good deed could come from someone.
52:15
without ulterior motive. Love isn't that strong.
52:20
But here we see God say, let me show you. Evil
52:26
had been defeated. Death was not really the end.
52:28
Hope is alive. Could it be that humans could
52:34
live again? Yeah. Job was right. Sometimes life
52:39
is terrible. Sometimes it is beautiful. Life
52:41
is not fair. And Job hopes that God would see
52:45
that, would understand, that God would have a
52:48
showdown with him, that God will speak to him.
52:52
But he can't even fathom what God has in store.
52:57
And I can just imagine Job standing before Christ
53:02
in the new heaven and the new earth, finally
53:04
getting that answer to can humans live again?
53:09
And I can see Job touching the wounds on Jesus'
53:12
hands and comparing Jesus' scars with his own
53:16
scars from when he scraped the wounds off with
53:19
the shards of the pot. I can see Jesus look Job
53:25
right in the eye and ask him if he'd like breakfast.
53:32
What a beautiful way to end this message of Job.
53:36
I love that you took kind of this big opening
53:39
question that the book of Job is really asking
53:42
the motivating, you know, question of the book
53:45
of like, can good deeds be done without ulterior
53:48
motives? Will Job trust God for nothing? And
53:53
instead of that question being answered by looking
53:57
at Job's character, that question is answered
54:00
by Jesus. So why was it important for you to
54:04
make that connection? Especially in light of
54:07
this kind of big theological wrestling that Job
54:10
is doing. Yeah, there's a few things that emerged.
54:16
I mean, I think in chapter 14, where there's
54:19
this glimpse of resurrection, it felt like we
54:21
had to go and imagine Job actually seeing that.
54:25
I kind of struggle with the actual ending of
54:28
Job, like the last chapter. I love the Leviathan
54:32
part. the showdown with God. And then it's like,
54:34
and then Job gets all this bunch of stuff. And
54:37
there's some really interesting things in there
54:39
that can be unpacked, but, but it always feels
54:41
like, okay, but that's not enough. I want to
54:44
know, like that doesn't replace what he lost.
54:47
So what, it's not like Job stopped grieving,
54:49
you know, just because eventually things got
54:52
stable. Like, so I really wanted to take it to
54:56
a place where we kind of got to think about Job
54:59
in the resurrection. You know, this thing he
55:03
hoped for, actually seeing it come to fruition.
55:06
Like, because it's just this inkling of like,
55:08
maybe, you know, I think we've all had those,
55:10
maybe, what if, you know, and then to see the
55:12
fulfillment of that, I think is, was powerful.
55:15
So I really wanted to take it there. I feel like
55:16
it had to go there. And then to think about Jesus
55:19
as a response to that question. And in the very
55:22
first sermon of the series is how I set this,
55:24
kind of set up the argument between the accuser
55:28
and God of, you know, would anybody really follow
55:32
you for nothing right and the idea that that
55:37
god would pursue us for nothing and you know
55:41
that might be a stretch you could say well you
55:43
know jesus pursued us for the joy set before
55:45
him or whatever um and that's a fair critique
55:49
of that idea but i do think there is this you
55:52
know god's response of what god would do for
55:54
us really what does god get out of the deal there's
55:59
only so much we bring to the table, right? And
56:01
so I thought it was really compelling to, is
56:06
it possible to see what are the lengths of love?
56:09
And Job goes to some extreme lengths, but not
56:13
as extreme as what God's willing to do, right?
56:18
And so I really like how that kind of subverts
56:20
the idea and subverts the accuser of saying,
56:24
not only would... Job be willing to follow God
56:29
wherever? Where would God be willing to go for
56:32
us? So I just thought bringing that forward might
56:35
be helpful and be encouraging. You know, when
56:37
you do a series on Job, it's just kind of bleak
56:40
for like four of the five weeks. So like it was
56:44
an opportunity to take it to the cross. Like
56:47
in the black tradition, there's always this move
56:50
towards the cross, towards the close. It was
56:52
an opportunity to bring it back to Jesus in the
56:55
middle of Job and provide some of that hope.
56:57
that otherwise you can get really bogged down
56:59
that's probably why people don't preach that
57:01
middle part of Job because it's like how do I
57:02
get out of here and do it in a way that's not
57:05
just like everything's terrible and see you next
57:07
week so that was the goal there yeah I appreciate
57:12
your awareness of that I think that's probably
57:15
why Job makes such a good lint series But I think
57:20
one of the things that was really radical for
57:22
me when thinking about the book of Job, when
57:24
I first heard a professor say, actually, Job
57:26
is not the hero of this story. Like Job, you
57:30
know, we could critique Job as well for some
57:33
things. And that like, actually, there's something
57:35
bigger happening here. And I think that's part
57:39
of what the book is trying to get us to see.
57:42
And so I love that you were able to say, like,
57:44
actually, we see this really manifested in Jesus,
57:47
not in Job. So I appreciate that you did that.
57:50
Yeah, Job doesn't get answers. That's the whole
57:53
thing with Job, right? Job doesn't get answers,
57:56
but Job gets God's presence. And that's the Christian
57:59
story. God shows up. God gets close. And so Job
58:03
helps us to see that God's willing to listen
58:05
to our complaints and our protests and our frustrations,
58:08
and that God really cares, that God's not just
58:10
weighing the scales of, well, you did this much,
58:12
so you get this, and you did that, so you get
58:13
that. But really, it's about God wants to be
58:16
close with us. And that's what Jesus reveals.
58:19
And so bringing it back to Jesus at the end is
58:23
all about like, how do we see that Jesus is the
58:25
hero, you know? Absolutely. And it didn't feel
58:28
like a cop out either. I think sometimes I listen
58:31
to sermons and I think like, oh, we felt like
58:33
we just had to sprinkle Jesus in there to say
58:35
what we talked about Jesus. And I don't see this
58:37
happening here too, especially the connection
58:39
with resurrection. So what are you most proud
58:43
of for this sermon? Yeah, I loved figuring out
58:49
a way to bring forth chapter 14 in the kind of
58:52
resurrection dream. And I really loved how it
58:56
tied to Jesus and it didn't feel, like you said,
58:59
like a cop -out. I think that worked and that
59:02
felt really, I was really grateful for the way
59:07
that I felt connected to. what I feel like God
59:11
was calling me to say in that moment. So yeah,
59:14
that was cool. So what would you do differently
59:19
if you could redo the sermon? I know that's,
59:21
you know, a tough question, maybe. No, not for
59:24
me. I think I would just, I would practice it
59:26
more. So someone asked me, you know, going from
59:29
a large church, we had lots of staff and I was
59:32
a teaching pastor and a college pastor. I had
59:36
a lot more time. to kind of craft my messages.
59:40
When you're the only full -time person and the
59:44
only ordained person at a church staff, like
59:46
my weeks, who knows, you know, people get sick
59:50
and people are in the hospital and you have to
59:53
deal with administrative stuff. And so someone
59:56
was like, how has your preaching improved since
59:58
you've been at Westchester? And I think it's
1:00:01
gotten worse because I haven't had, like, just
1:00:04
like if you were just to evaluate the quality
1:00:07
of the sermon, itself, I would say, yeah, I have
1:00:12
less time to like really make sure my delivery
1:00:14
is like super great and I'm free from my notes
1:00:19
or whatever. Like I don't have, I don't have
1:00:20
the time that I used to have for that. I don't
1:00:22
think it's worse than that. I feel like I'm more
1:00:24
connected to my community and all that stuff.
1:00:25
Like going to the hospital makes you a better
1:00:28
preacher. Like your people knowing that you care
1:00:30
about them makes you a better preacher. It's
1:00:32
more important that they know you and you know
1:00:34
them than your delivery. But if it's how can
1:00:38
I make this, what do I wish I could do different
1:00:39
about this sermon? I wish I had had more opportunities
1:00:42
or I'd use my time differently to be able to
1:00:44
practice it out loud more times. Because I think
1:00:49
my delivery could have been better. Yeah, I think
1:00:52
your content definitely, like I can see that
1:00:57
just because like I've listened to you and seen
1:00:59
you watch lots of videos of you preaching. And
1:01:02
I could tell, like, it did seem like you were
1:01:05
more focused on your notes than you normally
1:01:07
are. But I think the content of your message
1:01:10
was still really strong. So something to be proud
1:01:13
of, at least. But I can definitely, I hear that
1:01:16
of like, there's so many things that are eating
1:01:18
away at your time. And I imagine in a context
1:01:20
like yours, time can get away from you very easily
1:01:23
throughout the week. Yeah, yeah, it's just part
1:01:27
of it. So we ask all of our guests this. Why
1:01:33
do you think preaching matters today? I love
1:01:37
preaching and I love it because I really do think
1:01:43
that God still speaks through the church. And
1:01:46
that always doesn't have to be through the sermon.
1:01:48
I think God speaks through a community of believers
1:01:50
in lots of ways. But I think God does speak through
1:01:54
the sermon. Not always. I pray that God will
1:01:57
every time I preach. I think it gives us a chance.
1:02:02
to have some shared language and shared experience
1:02:04
and shared wrestling. I think it's uniquely contextual.
1:02:09
You know, in a time of podcasts and live streams,
1:02:12
which I love those things. We're on a podcast
1:02:14
right now. I live stream my services. Those things
1:02:17
are really helpful for lots and lots of reasons.
1:02:20
But a lot of the content, then we talk about
1:02:23
content a lot in our world today, is pretty disconnected
1:02:26
from like your lived life. And I think preaching
1:02:31
is really unique in that it is still content,
1:02:34
but it's in a community. And so to be able to
1:02:38
preach and teach and proclaim from God's message
1:02:44
and God's way, to be able to talk about Jesus
1:02:48
in our world in a community of people, and you
1:02:52
know their stories and they know yours, there's
1:02:54
something really unique about that for our own
1:02:56
formation. And I think... it's becoming more
1:03:00
and more rare because we're getting a lot of
1:03:04
our preaching from, you know, big screens or
1:03:08
whatever. And I think there's a lot of good there.
1:03:11
I'm just saying like, I think there's a lot of
1:03:13
value in wrestling with the scripture in community
1:03:16
and how it can shape us and how God can speak
1:03:19
to us and how God cares enough to speak to a
1:03:24
community of however many people are in a room,
1:03:27
you know, you know, even when it's, even in a
1:03:29
handful that God might speak through that. It's
1:03:32
just beautiful. And I love it. Well, I am always
1:03:39
excited to listen to you. And I really enjoyed
1:03:42
this conversation. It feels reminiscent of our
1:03:45
time together on a church staff. So I do hope
1:03:49
that all of our listeners enjoyed this conversation.
1:03:53
If you'd like to listen to Evan's full sermon
1:03:55
or to keep up with the work that he's doing,
1:03:57
you can follow him through the links posted in
1:04:00
our show notes. And always, if you like this
1:04:03
episode, please share and subscribe and tell
1:04:06
your friends. And this is our season finale.
1:04:10
So we are taking a break for the summer to talk
1:04:13
to more preachers and we will be having new episodes
1:04:16
in the fall. We hope that you will. Join us and
1:04:20
listen to those as they come. And if you have
1:04:22
questions for us, recommendations for guests,
1:04:25
please email us at preacherhandshake at gmail
1:04:27
.com. Thanks for listening.