Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Amanda DuBois | Law Firm Owner, Community Advocate, and Novelist Shares Her Secret to Cultivating a High-Performing, Loyal Team

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Amanda DuBois | Law Firm Owner, Community Advocate, and Novelist Shares Her Secret to Cultivating a High-Performing, Loyal Team · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

0:02
Davina Frederick: Hi everyone and welcome back to the wealthy
0:04
woman lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Davina Frederick, and I'm
0:07
here today with Amanda DuBois. Amanda is the founder of the
0:13
Dubois Law Group. And that's a divorce law firm. In California.
0:20
No, in Seattle, you're in the Seattle area, I apologize. I
0:23
started to saw California. And her law firm has 20 employees,
0:30
it is largely women attorneys. And she man is really
0:36
fascinating because I found out about her because I found out
0:40
that she is an attorney who has written a novel, a legal novel
0:45
and legal thriller. And so I am reading that it's called the
0:47
complication. And I invited her onto the show. And I found out
0:51
that she has built this amazing law firm over the last 20 years,
0:56
and in the Seattle area. And before that she was actually a
1:00
nurse. And she recently won a very prestigious award for her
1:06
work, her nonprofit work on something called the civil
1:10
survival projects. I'm eager to talk with her about that. I know
1:13
you guys are gonna love her. And love to hear all about Amanda
1:17
and her law firm. I've got lots of questions. So welcome. And
1:20
I'm so glad you're here. Thank you. So fun to be here. So why
1:25
don't you start out telling us about your law firm and kind of
1:29
give us a sense of the size of it? Who do you like to serve the
1:33
clients you'd like to serve? And your team?
1:38
Unknown: Well, I have an update. Newsflash, we have a new name.
1:41
Because Lucia lavas, just became a full partner in the law firm.
1:45
And so now it's called Dubois, Leviathan law groups. That's
1:49
pretty exciting. And what we're really excited about is that she
1:53
represents I think it's 2% of women, law partners who are
1:58
Latina, which is a statistic I wasn't aware of. So I'm pretty
2:01
proud of that. I know, right? So we're moving. We have a pretty
2:06
diverse group in our in our law firm, and Lucia is now a
2:09
partner. So that or she's a named partner, she was a partner
2:11
before, we have about now we've got about 25 employees, we have,
2:15
I think, nine lawyers and a bunch of staff, and sort of that
2:18
we got the admin staff, and then we got the paralegal staff. And
2:21
then we've got sort of the finance staff. And then we've
2:23
got these amazing lawyers, all of whom I pretty much trained.
2:28
So because I was a nurse, and I came from a medical, you know,
2:32
it's different in the medical world, like you graduate from
2:34
medical school, and then you become a intern, and then you
2:37
become a resident, and then you launch. And I noticed when I was
2:41
young lawyer, there was no internship and there was no
2:43
residency and it was kind of scary, right? When you got out
2:46
and you were sort of thrown out there. And I had all male, you
2:49
know, I worked, let's call them the bad boys, I work for the bad
2:52
boys. And they weren't very sympathetic to the plight of
2:54
the, you know, baby lawyer. And so I sort of committed myself
2:58
that all of the lawyers would come into our group are going to
3:00
be is pretty much sitting next to me for about a year. And so
3:05
we really, really, really mentor and train our new lawyers who
3:09
aren't always young, because, you know, people coming out of
3:12
law school and all different ages. But um, so I think that's
3:15
something I've noticed, you know, sort of I do family law.
3:19
And I've noticed, you know, that a lot of the newer lawyers don't
3:22
get the kind of mentoring and training that they need. And
3:25
it's, well, it's an order of business. First of all, it's
3:27
super scary, because you're throwing somebody out there
3:29
doesn't know what they're doing. But more importantly, you know,
3:32
for our clients, we want to make sure that they get the very best
3:35
possible representation that they can get. And by having
3:38
lawyers who have been heavily mentored and trained, and then
3:41
we're all the time working as a team for that very reason. So I
3:45
think, anyway, that's kind of how I've grown it is we take one
3:49
or two, sort of new lawyers at a time and train them up really
3:52
intensely.
3:54
Davina Frederick: I have a whole lot of questions about this. So
3:56
I think this is fantastic that you said that because I, I coach
4:01
women law firm owners and growing their business, and one
4:04
of the big challenges they're having is they're having hiring
4:06
challenges, but they're also feeling like, you know, I invest
4:09
in the training of this person, and then they, they leave. And I
4:13
think one of the challenges that people have is maybe they're not
4:17
spending enough time training and training closely enough and
4:21
working closely enough with them to develop that relationship. So
4:25
they think they're training by saying, here's how we do things
4:29
now go to it. And maybe there maybe that's why they're losing
4:33
people. But have you had the experience where you invest a
4:37
lot in training someone and then they've left you shortly after
4:41
you they kind of pass their their training period to go work
4:44
someplace else? And how do you handle that?
4:47
Unknown: Well, only Yeah, we've we've had people with this
4:49
family a lot, right? So either you love it or you hate it. And
4:52
so it's not, you know, it's not unusual for us to get somebody
4:57
in there who thinks they're super enthusiastic and they
4:58
always want to be family. Oh boy. They're, and then they're
5:00
dealing with people who are falling apart and, you know,
5:04
losing their home and their children. And it's really
5:06
emotional. And just circling back to this nurse thing,
5:09
because I was a nurse before I was a lawyer, I'm pretty
5:12
comfortable with people in crisis, because that's pretty
5:14
much I was a labor and delivery nurse. So you're dealing with
5:17
women in crisis every single day. So I'm very comfortable
5:21
with that. And I'm pretty good at mentoring, you know, my team
5:23
of how to be comfortable with people who have a really hugely
5:26
emotional state, but it's not for everybody. So I would say
5:31
that of the people that have sort of come and gone, I don't,
5:34
I can't think of one who's gone to another family law firm. I
5:37
can, you know, we've had some that have just said, I'm gonna
5:41
go to estate planning, or I'm gonna go be commercial litigate
5:43
like, they just want out of the crazy emotional part of it. But
5:49
so yeah, they kind of figure that out. And it becomes kind of
5:52
clear as you're going along, like, they're, they're not, you
5:56
know, really related to the clients as well and stuff. So,
5:59
yeah, we invest a lot in our people. But that's kind of part
6:02
of the business model. Because I figure a certain number of
6:04
people, you're gonna get in there, they're not all going to
6:07
stay with the ones who it clicks. And they find that
6:11
they're in the right place for them. We've never had any of
6:13
those leads that I can when moved to Texas. But other than
6:17
that, no.
6:18
Davina Frederick: Yeah, see that? That is really interesting
6:20
that you said that, because I do think that's where a lot of law
6:24
firm owners who struggle to grow because they struggle to hire
6:30
people is this feeling of well, I hire this person, they didn't
6:33
work out. And now I resent it, because I spent all this money
6:36
and they left. And so they struggle to hire sort of the
6:38
next person. How did you kind of get over that? Because I know
6:42
nursing is totally different from being a lawyer and owning
6:45
your own law firm. So how did you sort of get over that in the
6:48
beginning, to give yourself permission to hire and grow your
6:53
team?
6:56
Unknown: First of all, I would say nursing and lawyering isn't
6:58
all that different. Which sounds weird. But because I'm a law
7:02
that I practice in nursing, you learn about how to make
7:05
decisions quickly, you'll learn how to triage things, you learn
7:08
how to deal with high emotions, you learn how to, it's a really,
7:11
it's a thought process, it's a way of thinking of, you know,
7:13
let's go and here's a situation, what do we have to do, it's not
7:15
all that different is really good training for lawyering,
7:18
I've got to say, and in my particular kind of learning,
7:21
just as an aside, I was in a labor and delivery nurse. And
7:25
that's a time when a woman comes in to you and they're like
7:28
scared and out of control, and they don't know what's going on,
7:30
and you're trying to help them stay calm and go through this
7:33
delivery process. Not too dissimilar from what happens in
7:36
family law, people come in full circle, they don't know what's
7:39
going on, they're terrified, and you're like calming them down
7:42
and getting them through a process. When you're in labor
7:44
and delivery, you know, at the end of it, you're gonna have a
7:46
baby, right? And so you can kind of hold it together. in family
7:49
law, what they don't know is that they're gonna have this
7:51
great new life that I can see, because I've seen it so often.
7:54
They don't always see that. So I'm sort of midwifing or doula
7:59
adding a new life for a person. So the nursing in the family
8:02
law, and the nursing in the law kind of does, oddly enough, go
8:05
together. But back to your question about how it works for
8:09
business is, I think you have to this sounds kind of flaky, but
8:15
you kind of have to love people up because they're scared that
8:18
new lawyers are scared, they don't know. You know, it's scary
8:22
when you get it, because we all know, they don't teach you
8:24
anything in law school that really has anything to do with
8:26
practicing law, right? So you're coming out, and you're into a
8:29
situation where you really want to do a good job, and you really
8:32
want to be proud of your work. But you need someone to really
8:35
lift you up and to make you feel like you matter. And you're
8:37
important, and you have a contribution to make. And so if
8:40
you build a relationship with your team in a way that they
8:45
know that you're investing in them, because you know, they
8:48
know that I want them to be a great lawyer, and they know that
8:51
I have a lot to teach them. And then they know that if they
8:53
stick with me and us that we're going to continue to invest in
8:57
them. So it's not like you invest in them for three months,
9:00
and then send them out and say, Okay, once you to Bill 160 hours
9:03
a month, and you're on your own, and you know, if your kid gets
9:06
sick, you can't, you know, go to the doctor, and you know, I'm on
9:10
some of these Facebook pages with the women lawyers, I don't
9:12
remember what they're all called. But some of those
9:14
places, they're awful like your kid is sick, and you can't go
9:18
take care of your sick kid in the hospital because some
9:21
partner wants you to be you know, arguing a motion, which
9:24
anyway, so we have a more family friendly operation. And I think
9:27
that's part of why people stick around.
9:30
Davina Frederick: I going back to when you started your firm.
9:34
And you were you Did you start it as a solo. Had you you'd
9:37
already been practicing a while in another area.
9:42
Unknown: Well, I started off as a medical malpractice lawyer,
9:44
which is how the book ended up happening. And then I tend like,
9:49
you can tell by reading this book, right? I hit insurance
9:51
companies that I hated dealing with the insurance adjusters and
9:54
it just there was like, me and people against sort of big
9:58
business over here and so yeah, I kind of like family law
10:01
because it's me and people versus someone else in people.
10:03
And there's a way to negotiate a deal between people. So I left
10:07
med mal. And I started my own med mal firm. And then I sort of
10:12
gradually took on family law for just because I had a friend who
10:15
said, you should try family law. And I thought he was crazy. And
10:18
I did, and I liked it. So I started off with one partner,
10:22
and then she left and then I was on my own for a while, and then
10:25
with a paralegal, and then just kind of grew from there.
10:29
Davina Frederick: So how did you? Did you have kind of going
10:32
back to what I was asking before? Did you have any sort of
10:37
trepidation around hiring other lawyers? or expanding? Did you
10:43
have situations where people you hired people, and then they left
10:46
and then you're like, oh, my gosh, I can't do this, or I'm
10:50
gonna do this, or did it always sort of go smoothly for you?
10:52
And, and it was not anything you had any sort of fear around
10:55
hiring other lawyers.
10:57
Unknown: Never had any fear around it, because the work was
10:59
always there. My it was always they used to laugh at me, you
11:02
know, the new lawyers back when I was first starting, because
11:05
the my first who became my partner, and just recently
11:07
joined the bench. And so she just left her name's Monica
11:10
Carey. When she came, it was like, Well, why don't you come
11:13
tomorrow, and just sit over there. And I'll give you some
11:17
work. And we'll see how it goes. And then the end of the day, she
11:19
did all stuff. And oh, we should come back tomorrow. And let's
11:22
see how it goes. And it sort of became this, she was just when
11:24
she would laugh. She had just like, and then someone else, you
11:27
know. And then a few years later, someone else showed up.
11:29
And I can't quite remember, we just got busy. And we sort of
11:32
hired someone on a contract. And I said, let's just see how it
11:34
goes. And if you're here, and there's work. And so it was
11:37
always this very organic, it was very like, and I wasn't probably
11:41
smart enough to like have a business plan or any, it was
11:45
more like a vision, like I wanted to build an organization
11:49
where the people felt appreciated, because I'd been in
11:52
one of those law firms where it wasn't that way, right? So I
11:54
knew what I didn't want. And so I just wanted to build this
11:58
organization where people would feel appreciated and coached and
12:03
mentored. And it just sort of attracted people. So it was very
12:08
everything that a business person and an MBA my brother's
12:12
an MBA, and it's like you're doing this all wrong. And I'm
12:13
like,
12:16
Davina Frederick: well, and obviously you, you didn't know
12:18
what you were doing, because here you are, you know, quarter
12:21
of a century later, right? In the novel, so the novel is
12:25
called the complication. And it is a kind of female attorney,
12:32
heroine of the protagonist in the book. And she, I'm not going
12:40
to give spoilers for the whole book, but I'll just say that she
12:43
winds up leaving where she is in starting her own law firm. And
12:47
she's having this conversation with her mother, about starting
12:51
her own law firm. Can I do it? Should I do it? You know, for
12:55
this particular reason. And I thought it was very interesting,
12:59
as somebody who works with women, law firm owners as
13:02
they're starting and growing and expanding their law firm to get
13:06
to a million dollars, the conversations, the fears that
13:09
are that she's expressing in the book, are a lot of the fears and
13:12
conversations that I have with a lot of women lawyers. And I, of
13:16
course, when I was reading, I was like, I have to ask her, was
13:18
this kind of a reflection of what your thought process when
13:23
you were thinking about starting your own? Firm? You know, going
13:27
from med mal, then to starting your own med mal firm? Did you
13:31
kind of go through this process, in your own mind? Some of the
13:34
things that you discussed in the book?
13:36
Unknown: That's a really funny question. I never thought about
13:38
that. It's probably what I should have thought about. You
13:43
know, I don't think I was just like, when I started, it was day
13:47
to day. And I had just had, I'm sort of I'm a, I subscribe to
13:51
this crazy, or woowoo theory of make a vision, and it'll happen.
13:55
So I would every day say what I wanted to happen and what I saw
13:58
happening and where I wanted to go, and I was very visionary
14:00
about it all. But I didn't really attend to the details. It
14:05
just I just trusted that they were somehow going to work out
14:07
and they really did. So you know that whole? I know, if you read
14:11
books, like you know the secret or the answer,
14:14
Davina Frederick: the attraction or the law of attraction,
14:17
Unknown: totally, I'm here to say, I've built a very, very
14:20
successful business following. Like, I used to read those books
14:24
every night. Like, we're Napoleon Hill, or John Assaraf.
14:28
Like, I didn't do any of the slides. I'm saying my MBA
14:31
brother, I didn't do the business plan in the budgeting
14:34
and I'm like, come on over, we'll see if there's any work.
14:37
You know, clients are going to pay if they don't pay, I'm going
14:39
to let go of them and not going to worry about I'm not going to
14:41
chase around people that aren't paying and I'm going to assume
14:44
that the right people are going to show up at the right and then
14:46
they do so I know it sounds kind of weird, but it works for me.
14:50
Davina Frederick: That's good, good. I actually am the same in
14:54
that I I read a lot of that and sort of and when I teach I'm
14:58
teaching a lot of times about log traction, I'm teaching a
15:01
hiring workshop right now. And we started out the first session
15:05
was about clearing negative energy around hiring, because a
15:08
lot of people have had bad experiences. And I said, we have
15:11
to shift this energy, the first step is we have to shift the
15:13
energy around hiring, you have to stop telling the same stories
15:17
about these bad things that went wrong, that time you hired
15:21
somebody, and they quit whatever, you have to kind of
15:23
folk shift your focus, let's clean all that negative energy
15:26
up, let's cut it, let's release it. And then let's shift into
15:30
the kind of energy that we want to have about this. So what can
15:32
we say? That will lighten up these things? How can we reframe
15:37
these stories and, and talk about them in different ways. So
15:41
I totally agree with you on Law of Attraction. It's one of those
15:45
things where it believes in you whether you believe in it or
15:47
not, you know, what we put out there is, is what we
15:51
Unknown: want. And if you spend all your time ruminating on the
15:54
fires that didn't work out, or the what you're just talking
15:57
about, I have these bad ideas about maybe about fires that
16:00
didn't work. If you're putting all your attention on that, what
16:02
are you going to get, you're going to get more people like
16:04
that. So let it go. Really think about I mean, and we do this,
16:09
even in our we have a month or weekly huddle. And if it feels
16:13
like we're not getting the clients the quality, I'll just
16:16
go around the zoom, now it's on the Zoom, you know, you know,
16:19
there's like 25 of us on this. And I'm like, tell me the
16:21
qualities of the clients that you want. Tell me your favorite
16:23
client, tell me what you love about him or her? And what kind
16:26
of qualities are we looking to attract, and we'll go around 25
16:29
people, and everybody will say, you know, so you just want to
16:32
get the energy going in the direction of the kind of clients
16:34
you want. And you know, the kind of work that you want. And if
16:38
we're looking to hire somebody, say, well do the 25 people in
16:41
the huddle, and we'll say we want somebody who's smart, and
16:44
somebody who's you know, family focused, and somebody who's a
16:48
good team member will go through all the qualities kind of like
16:50
writing your ad your Yeah, you put on indeed or something. But
16:54
everybody in the firm will pardon right down to the
16:56
everybody like receptionist in the business manager. And we'll
16:59
talk about the qualities we're looking for in our new lawyer.
17:02
And then we'll create an ad that goes on wherever they put those
17:06
ads, I think indeed or something. And, and then people
17:10
respond to it. Because it's not a typical, we're looking for
17:12
somebody who's got three years of experience and and write a
17:14
brief and you know, can build some number of hours. It's like
17:17
we want somebody who's got a good, you know, prioritizes
17:20
their family and we want somebody who, you know, wants to
17:23
be on a team and our ads don't look like the kind of ad you'd
17:26
see for a law
17:26
Davina Frederick: firm. It's so interesting. Yeah. Because
17:29
that's, I'm going through this five day challenge right now.
17:32
And we're about to jump into sort of the magnetic funnel
17:35
piece of it, which is how do you set up? How do you write your
17:38
ads? And how do you pretty put them? And what else do you do,
17:41
because so many people are challenged with the idea of,
17:47
they're struggling to get people to even apply for jobs. And when
17:51
they do, they're not a good fit, and all of that and, and so I
17:55
kind of came up with this presentation how to hire when no
17:57
one wants to work. And the idea is that, you know that we really
18:02
have to change our energy and thoughts around it. And we also
18:04
may have to do things a little differently than we normally do.
18:06
We can't just get away with writing down the ad, like what
18:09
you're talking about, I need somebody with X years of
18:11
experience, bla bla bla and putting that out there, that
18:14
there is an attraction piece of it, that we need to be putting
18:18
out there and saying, This is really who we're looking for.
18:21
And so for us a lot of that revolves around core values. So
18:24
what do we value? So a lot of what you're talking about with
18:27
your group is kind of what is it that we really value? What is it
18:30
we're really looking for here? Not just, you know, the
18:33
demographics, but like the psychographics? And what core
18:37
values do they have that they need to align with to fit in
18:40
here? Right. So I love that you shared that. And I also I like
18:45
it that this is kind of developed organically and with a
18:47
little bit of Woo, because that's wonderful, you know, have
18:52
you always been that way? Or is this something that somewhere
18:55
along the line, somebody said, you know, kind of threw this
18:58
idea out at you and, and you were like, oh, I need to change
19:02
the way I think something you were I was kind of
19:05
Unknown: you know, I I'm old so I grew up in the sort of, you
19:09
know, like the when I was sort of just going to college, I
19:12
started getting into sort of personal growth stuff, which is
19:15
a little bit sounds, you know, weird now, but I learned really
19:18
early on that you know, you kind of put out there what you want
19:22
and figure out a way to make it happen and you start small
19:25
because like sometimes it's just you want I don't know something
19:29
simple like to pass a test or to you know, get a new car or your
19:33
you know, something easy and then you sort of grow over time
19:35
and then it's like build a law firm or build this nonprofit
19:39
like I don't know how to build I don't know anything about
19:42
business. I don't know anything about building a law firm like
19:45
if you were gonna say go teach build a law firm I'd like you
19:48
know, go put it out there what you want and it'll all happen in
19:51
there. And it's funny because I have a friend and he's a teacher
19:55
Professor something at Seattle University Law School and he
19:58
teaches a class on how to How to Build how to have a law firm are
20:01
in like the business part of it. And that the last class of the
20:04
year, he invites me and a couple of other guys who come and talk
20:08
about how it's really like to have a law firm, and they're the
20:10
one guy is all you got to have a spreadsheet, you got to have a
20:13
budget, and you got to be it's all fear based, it's all like,
20:16
and if it doesn't work, then this is going to be a crisis and
20:19
don't hire anybody because they might not be trustworthy. And
20:21
then I'm like, No, you gotta have a vision. Sort of, like,
20:25
Davina Frederick: It's your show with, like, daisies around your
20:28
head going, Oh, you just got to be at peace with yourself.
20:33
Unknown: I do people. Yeah,
20:35
Davina Frederick: I will, I do think, you know, you definitely
20:38
have built this law firm sort of playing on your strengths,
20:41
because you know, that you so it's a Know thyself, you know,
20:44
you're not the person who's going to be into spreadsheets.
20:47
So but you can bring who you are to it and create the kind of law
20:51
firm that you wanted, and you desire, based around your
20:55
strengths, you know, because you are somebody who apparently
20:59
loves people and loves to help people like in crisis. And so
21:04
that's, that's not everybody's like, though there are a lot of
21:06
people out there who aren't like that they're not good at a
21:08
crisis, my best friend is a labor and delivery nurse, and a
21:13
sense of, you know, from her what that's like, and I could
21:16
have just like, No, I could never do that, but it just would
21:18
not be me. But she is so you know, just calm in a crisis, and
21:23
has that sort of, you know, personality, and loves it and
21:27
loves the whole process of helping me give birth and the
21:30
new life and all that kind of thing. And, you know, we we have
21:34
to, to, all we can do is really go with our strengths. And I
21:37
think people who sort of tried to swim against that, and become
21:40
something they are not, are the ones who really sort of struggle
21:44
with that, because there are always people out there who can
21:46
help you figure out the spreadsheets, right? And
21:49
Unknown: that's, like, I would say, another thing that I've
21:52
seen a lot of people is trying to start a business like, oh, I
21:54
don't want to, you know, I'm gonna save money, I'm not gonna
21:56
hire a bookkeeper and do it myself. And I'm like, Are you
21:58
crazy, like, just pay people and even borrow money, like get a
22:03
loan and pay a bookkeeper and you can like, you're gonna
22:06
succeed based on being really, really good at your craft, I'm
22:09
not going to succeed, by figuring out how to make an
22:12
Excel spreadsheet of, you know, my rent and my malpractice
22:17
insurance and not like, that's not, that's not a good use of my
22:20
time. And there's really smart people who are very delighted
22:23
and happy to do the stuff that I can't stand doing. And they want
22:28
to, you know, like you're looking, you're not trying to
22:30
hire people like you, you're trying to hire people, like, who
22:33
can do the things that you can't do. And don't be afraid to hire
22:35
him. Because once you do that, you're freed up to do what's
22:38
really good. And then the people who are watching this, if you're
22:40
all lawyers, you're probably really good at lawyering. And
22:43
that's why you want to have a firm because you're really,
22:44
really good at it. And you want to be able to share that with
22:47
your potential clients. So don't be this my advice, like don't be
22:51
spending your time trying to figure out how to open bank, we
22:54
got open a bank account, but how to do books and how to manage
22:57
payroll and pay your taxes.
23:00
Davina Frederick: I agree. I agree. It's interesting, because
23:03
you said borrow money. And I think that we don't talk about
23:07
this enough. People who are starting their firm. So you
23:11
know, a lot of people Bootstrap. To start their firms are many
23:13
people who say I want a law firm. And they bootstrapping,
23:16
there are people who get sort of forced into opening their law
23:18
firm, because they can't find the job they want. And they
23:21
Bootstrap and have because we've been taught in our society, that
23:26
debt is bad. Many consumer debt, credit card debt debt is bad.
23:32
Oftentimes, there is a reluctance. And I find this a
23:36
lot with women, having worked with men and women, that women
23:41
are reluctant, oftentimes to invest in their business,
23:44
because somehow they feel that that's that they don't, I don't
23:48
know, have a right to do that they're taking away from their
23:51
family to do that, or they're not supposed to borrow money.
23:56
What has been your experience? What are your thoughts on that
23:59
in terms of borrowing money to grow your business?
24:02
Unknown: Well, let's back up a couple of steps and talk about
24:05
what money is, money is just energy, and money circulates.
24:10
And the whole purpose of to me of money is to take it in and
24:14
let it go. And so debt is just debts as part of the
24:18
circulation, like you're taking money from this place, and
24:21
you're putting it over here, and then people are gonna pay you
24:24
and it's if you think of it, like take off all the charge of
24:27
money being this important thing that really matters a lot. And
24:30
just think of it as energy. So, if I need money, I'm gonna
24:34
borrow it because it feeds my need to back to being this
24:38
really you know, I'm gonna say I'm great lawyer, but you're
24:40
good. You know, you want to do your craft. In order to do your
24:42
craft, you're going to have to circulate the money around
24:45
circulate the energy and don't be afraid to give it away. Don't
24:49
be afraid to pay people with a don't be afraid to borrow it
24:52
because when you borrow it, then it just stimulates because it's
24:57
for a purpose. You're not borrowing money to like, go on a
24:59
trip to Hawaii or something, you're borrowing money to invest
25:02
in yourself, because you believe in yourself. So and once you
25:05
start doing your very best work, because you've got the money or
25:08
the you know the little bit of the energy that you need to be
25:10
able to do your work, then people start paying you because
25:14
you this sort of is over here saying, it's just gotta be paid
25:17
back, then that stimulates the people that are paying you, and
25:20
then you've got to pay other people. But I think a lot of
25:23
people think of money, and I think we're always this way,
25:25
like money is some scary thing that has, you know, it's really,
25:31
it's really not that scary. It's just something that moves around
25:34
the tool. It's a resource, a tool. Yeah, yeah. And you don't
25:38
be afraid of it just you know, you, if somebody doesn't pay,
25:41
you let it go, because there's someone else that will pay you.
25:44
But if you focus all your time on this person will pay or if
25:46
you take debt, and you're afraid you can't pay it back and all
25:49
your energy is going, I'm afraid I can't pay my debt back, then
25:51
guess what you're not going to get, it's not going to start
25:53
coming in over here, because this
25:55
Davina Frederick: is a block. Right? Right. So you need to
25:57
borrow it knowing that everything's going to work out,
26:00
right. I think of it in terms of expanded capacity, so you, you
26:05
to achieve wealth, or achieve the law firm that you want to
26:09
achieve, or whatever great accomplishment, you have to
26:12
expand your capacity for it. Like your mental and emotional
26:16
capacity for it, I need to be able to hold this, you know,
26:19
this vision that I have, and we grow into it, sometimes we grow
26:23
into that capacity, but then that also is going to help us
26:26
expand the resource capacity that we need. Right so that your
26:29
time that money is resource, people are resource. So all of
26:33
these time is a resource, all of these resources that we have,
26:38
we're wanting to grow our resources, because people with
26:41
more resources have more options, right? So there's an
26:44
expansion of your mind, though, that has to happen to be able to
26:50
hold these vast resources because you if you are mentally
26:56
there, like you said, you're going to be going, oh my god, I
26:58
can't pay this debt back or Oh, my God, I can't hire somebody
27:01
because I'm scared they're going to be I'm going to make a
27:04
mistake and hire the wrong person. And then we all do,
27:06
right. So all of that is about expanding your mind and saying,
27:12
I can do this, if if they can do it. I can do it. Other people
27:14
can do it, I can do it. I'm watching I'm looking, you know,
27:17
what if what if What else is possible? Those kinds of things,
27:20
right. So I love that sort of you and I are on the same page
27:24
with that philosophy. I love it. I want to before we run out of
27:27
time, I want to talk about your civil survival project. And
27:32
because that's something else, too, that was a that started out
27:36
small, and then grew, the vision expanded, and it became its own
27:41
sort of thing, and a very important thing for a lot of
27:45
people's lives. So why don't you tell us about it, how it started
27:47
out what it is, how it started out, and where it ended up?
27:52
Unknown: Well, so long time ago, I was sort of, in a point in my
27:54
career where I thought it was time for me to think a little
27:56
bit more about giving back. And so I ended up writing this
27:59
series of books that taught sort of basic legal survival skills
28:02
to marginalize people who were, you know, just ordinary people
28:06
who didn't have access to lawyers, and which is still kind
28:09
of out there. But anyway, I ended up teaching. So it's like
28:12
how to rent an apartment and how to be a good employee and
28:14
childhood divorce and criminal law. And so I ended up just
28:17
through circumstances, teaching it to a group of people that had
28:20
just come out of prison. And they were like, taking notes
28:24
since like, we were talking about how to rent an apartment
28:26
and how to be a good at it was like employment law and landlord
28:28
tenant law, and but how to do this, and they would, you know,
28:31
take all these notes. And then finally, one, I was like, This
28:33
is so helpful. And thank you so much for helping us with this.
28:36
There's just one problem. And I said, What's that? And they
28:37
said, we can't get a job. And we can't get a place to live
28:40
because we're all felons. And I was like, what? Because I'm the
28:45
privileged white lady, like, I didn't know that. I'm like, What
28:48
are you talking about? And they're like, Well, you know,
28:50
when we go to rent an apartment, or apply for a job, they asked
28:53
us, you know, your criminal background record, and then we
28:55
have to say that and then we can't get a job. And I'm like,
28:57
this is messed up. And then they started to tell me these
29:00
unbelievably heart wrenching stories about one guy, this big
29:03
black guy was sitting in my office, telling me the scariest
29:06
day he ever had, he was a gang member, and he was in prison for
29:09
15 years. And he said, The scariest night I ever had was
29:13
the day I got out of prison, because I didn't know what to
29:16
do. Like I was just thrown out, you know, with a bus pass and
29:20
$20. And I had no place to go. And now I've tried to find a job
29:23
and I can't find a job anyway. So after listening to all these
29:26
stories and stuff, I'm like, Well, you know, these are laws
29:29
that are holding you back. And I'm a lawyer. And I know that we
29:32
can change laws, but there's no way that this particular
29:35
demographic of people could necessarily get access to the
29:38
policymakers. And so I came up with this idea that after I got
29:42
to know all these new friends and heard their very sad stories
29:46
of you know how scared they were and how traumatized they were,
29:48
first of all, being in prison, first of all, they're
29:50
traumatized before they got to prison, which is what led them
29:52
to whatever you know, behavior they did that got them in prison
29:55
and then they're out here traumatized and I'm like, you
29:57
know, if our legislators could hear directly the story Isn't
30:00
these new friends of mine, they would not want the laws to be so
30:04
oppressive to them. So I got this idea that we should put
30:06
together workshops where I would bring in formerly incarcerated
30:10
people. And we talked about how to just had a lobby really how
30:14
to change laws, like how to change policy, we did, you know,
30:17
how does a bill become a law we did, we learned about
30:20
organizing, we learned about, you know, civil rights and
30:22
marriage equality. And I was trying to teach them about how
30:26
the power of organizing in our country, there's 100 million
30:29
people, one out of four people in our country has a criminal,
30:34
something on their record that impairs their ability to get
30:36
housing and jobs, which is an astonishing, that is, I have no
30:40
idea. So I put together this workshop, and the first workshop
30:44
was 75 people that just come out of prison at some point in their
30:47
life. And then we learned all about how to change policy. And
30:52
then in the afternoon, we had legislators come in. And then we
30:55
had our people practice telling their stories to the
30:57
legislators. And invariably, They'd cry and go, Oh, my God, I
31:00
had no idea. And so it just sort of grew and became it became
31:03
this huge community of people that I would never have known
31:07
before, who were just passionate about wanting to make their
31:09
lives better, because they made a mistake, they're home. And
31:12
they just want to get a job and a place to live and be a you
31:14
know, participate member of the community. So that started to
31:18
grow. And then there's this young woman named Tara Simmons,
31:21
who was a law student when I first met her, and she was
31:24
formerly incarcerated. And oddly enough, she's also a nurse. So
31:27
we have a lot in common. She went to prison, she came out,
31:29
she went to law school, and she wanted to sort of run, you know,
31:34
get involved in this organization. So long story
31:36
short, I mentored her, and somewhere along the line after a
31:40
couple of years, and then talk about money, I paid all these
31:43
people salary, like I started this thing. And here's what I
31:46
learned. I learned that, you know, for us privileged white
31:49
ladies, if someone says, Hey, can you volunteer and do
31:52
something we say, Sure, well, this demographic, you say, can
31:55
you volunteer, and we're gonna go to the legislature, they're
31:57
like, well, who's gonna pay for my gas? And what if we have to
31:59
get lunch and, you know, I can't take time off work. And so they
32:03
can't, they need to be paid for stuff. So I just started paying
32:06
them. And then it started becoming an organization. So I
32:10
hired a couple of people full time to work for the
32:12
organization that didn't even it wasn't a, I didn't even smart
32:15
enough to make it into a nonprofit, I just thought it
32:17
because I was paying because I'm like, this is important work. So
32:19
I'm paying people full time salaries, to go and organize
32:24
this group of people that needed help with policy and stuff. And
32:28
ultimately, it became really clear to me that it really
32:30
wasn't my work to do because it needs to be run by people who
32:33
are impacted by the criminal legal system. And so I turned it
32:36
over pretty quickly to Tara. And now it's run. And I'm the
32:39
president of the board now, but it's run completely by people,
32:42
almost everybody in leadership there is formerly incarcerated,
32:46
and they mentor each other's couple of lawyers and stuff who
32:49
aren't formerly incarcerated, but it's a group of people that
32:52
are and they're running it now and, and talk about money and
32:57
energy. It's like, that didn't make any sense. You know, my NBA
33:01
brother was like, What the hell are you what are you doing?
33:03
You're like paying people, there's no income coming in.
33:06
This is not a for profit, let no, turn it into a nonprofit
33:09
ultimately. But anyway, the point is that there's a whole
33:13
demographic of people that are just like, women coming out of
33:16
prison, listen, as they come out of prison, and they're reunited
33:19
with their children. And then they can't volunteer at their
33:22
kids school. So they can't bring cupcakes to their second graders
33:25
birthday party at school. And if ever there was a child who needs
33:29
their mother to be supporting them in their school
33:31
environment, it's a kid whose mother has been taken away from
33:34
them and put in the criminal system. And then they come out.
33:37
And the schools have all these rules and about, the mothers
33:42
can't come in, they can't. My friend, Tara Simmons, who is now
33:45
the executive director of civil survival. She is a lawyer, and
33:50
she just got elected to our state legislature. She's
33:52
representative Simmons, now. She can't volunteer in her kids High
33:56
School.
33:58
Davina Frederick: Wow, that insane. That is. So
34:01
Unknown: there's all of these. So anyway, to make long story
34:03
short, they started changing laws, they've changed like five
34:06
or six changed all kinds of laws about how fines are imposed on
34:09
people have been in prison, they got civil survival worked with
34:11
another couple of organizations to get the right to vote for
34:14
formerly incarcerated people in our state. Like they're changing
34:18
the laws and the rules around you know how to make life better
34:22
for people who are coming out of prison. And this wasn't anything
34:24
that was even remotely interested in, I knew nothing
34:26
about this. It's just sort of sort of circumstantial, that I
34:30
ended up teaching this to this group of people. But now, let's
34:33
think about that. This morning. I've got so many friends who've
34:36
been in prison, I got friends who have been in prison for
34:38
murder and for all kinds of drugs and, and they're all you
34:43
know, trying to make their lead a lot of them come out and
34:46
really want to work with the youth in the community. So
34:48
there's sort of a ripple effect because they come out and we
34:51
help them get a lot of their rights back and get their fines
34:54
canceled and free them up so that they can live their best
34:57
life. And now they're running organizations for youth all
35:00
Cross sort of the Seattle area, and it's really, really pretty
35:03
inspiring.
35:04
Davina Frederick: Wow. And it's interesting because you, you
35:08
were practicing med mal, and then you became a family lawyer.
35:12
And then really, you got into this area that would have been a
35:17
it seemed like a natural fit for somebody who's in defense for
35:20
criminal defense work. No, nothing. I've got sort of, from
35:24
your own experience, and what inspired you to sort of write
35:27
the books to begin with? I mean, was there something you know, it
35:31
was the West End for
35:32
Unknown: criminal I was more like, you know, what it was like
35:35
being a lawyer and realize how little access people had to
35:39
like, we have the way our society is set up as we've got
35:43
the rules of the game, right. And nobody knows the rules of
35:46
the game. So we've got this like playing Monopoly, but nobody
35:49
tells you the rules, because regular average Joe citizen
35:52
doesn't know the rules. But if you break one of the rules, you
35:55
find out very quickly that you have broken a rule, whether
35:58
it's, you know, building a fence on your neighbor's property, or
36:02
not paying an employee or you know, whatever you've done
36:04
wrong, they're going to come right down on you. But if we
36:06
don't tell people what the rules are, it's kind of not fair to
36:09
say, you know, we have a game and it's, you know, the goal is
36:13
life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not going to tell
36:15
you any of the rules until you break them. And then oh, we're
36:17
going to charge you three or $400 an hour to talk to someone
36:20
about how to fix what you did that you didn't know that you
36:23
shouldn't have done. And I think everybody's a lawyer probably
36:25
feels that way on some level, like, people come in, and you're
36:28
like you did what? And then you think for a moment? How would
36:32
you not know?
36:33
Davina Frederick: Yeah, that was thing for me. That was that I've
36:36
always said to people. I'm so grateful for my law school
36:40
education, because I didn't know what I didn't know. You don't
36:44
understand, like, all the different levels of governance
36:47
and rules that go on, because it's not just, it's not just our
36:52
laws in the justice system. It's also all these administrative
36:57
rules or agencies and laws of rules and things like that, that
37:00
we have set up. And other people have set up all around us and
37:04
for us, and against us and all of those things, right? So
37:08
right, and you don't realize until you start like you buy
37:11
property, and then you're paying property taxes, and then you've
37:13
got your work, and then you got to pay income tax. And there's
37:17
all of these things that you don't you don't realize how
37:21
those are laws, even though they're not in the justice
37:25
system. Right. And so it really, you know, I always say, I mean,
37:31
like, I think a legal education is never wasted, because it just
37:35
opened your eyes, even if you don't go practice as an
37:37
attorney, it just opened your eyes to the complexities that
37:41
our society has developed over time, and how it impacts people
37:46
in different ways. You know, so
37:48
Unknown: you teach anybody about them, right? So no,
37:53
Davina Frederick: need to go to law school, you don't learn
37:54
about them. Right?
37:55
Unknown: You can afford to pay someone for two bucks an hour to
37:57
tell you what a stupid thing you just did. So
37:59
Davina Frederick: Well, I graduated, I didn't graduate
38:01
from law school till I was 14. So like the first half of my
38:03
life, I had no I was like, happy, you know, whatever in the
38:06
marketing world thinking I wasn't happy. And then I was
38:08
like, no, no, you have no idea. When I went through law school.
38:13
You're you recently won an award, you won an award so
38:18
recently that between the time we scheduled this, and today,
38:21
you've won this award. So why don't you tell us about the
38:23
award? What is it it's a I don't remember the name of it, because
38:27
it's long. To tell us the name. I've
38:30
Unknown: never heard of that before. Either. It makes you
38:32
feel any better. It's called the Sally's Sally piece, Sally
38:36
savage Award for Leadership and philanthropy from the Washington
38:39
State Bar Association. So they gave me this award because they
38:43
work in civil survival. And I, I just feel like for them to
38:47
acknowledge that the people that civil survival serves are worthy
38:52
of like, it's not me, right? It's like, there's a whole
38:56
demographic as live ripple effect. There's a whole
38:58
demographic of people that have been really forgotten by our
39:00
society and like, who wants to really care about somebody who's
39:04
been in prison? Really, honestly. So I think it was
39:07
really, I was very touched that they realized that this
39:11
particular demographic of people can really be lifted up and
39:15
really be their lives can be made so much better. Just by
39:19
changing some policies, and you know, and now we're doing
39:23
actually, terrorists now got a legal clinic going there. So we
39:27
do expungements and we do different vacating records and
39:33
you know, things to clean up people's record, because what I
39:36
didn't know, here's a statistic people who are out of prison for
39:39
seven years are no more likely to commit a crime than anybody
39:42
else. Yet. We, you know, I've got friends been out of prison
39:47
for 20 years and they still have to, they can't get an apartment.
39:50
I have a friend who is a professor of law at Georgetown,
39:53
who did 12 years in prison for armed bank robbery came out,
39:56
went to law school, clerked for Federal Court judge is now a
40:01
professor of law at Georgetown, and he couldn't rent an
40:03
apartment in DC because he had a criminal record. And keep it
40:08
out. I don't know how long but the point is, and one of my
40:11
friends told me, she goes, when the judge sentenced me, he
40:14
sentenced me. He didn't sentenced me to a lifetime of
40:17
unemployment and homelessness, I did my time. I, you know, went
40:21
to prison, and I made amends for what I did wrong, and it
40:25
doesn't, it's not fair that then once you're out the rest of your
40:29
life, you can't get a job, you can't get a place to live, you
40:31
can't volunteer in school, you can't. There's a million jobs
40:34
like hair salon and an astonishing number of jobs that
40:38
you can't get if you've ever been in prison. So civil
40:41
survival is going about cleaning up all of those things that hold
40:45
people back.
40:46
Davina Frederick: Right, right. I think what I think what's so
40:49
wonderful is that you, you've identified to how there's a
40:54
whole demographic that doesn't have an app doesn't exist, the
40:57
powerlessness not having access to policymakers, and awareness,
41:03
creating awareness for policymakers, lawmakers, you
41:06
know what I mean?
41:07
Unknown: You know, what happened, there hypotheses
41:09
worked. So I had this idea that if my, my people, you know, my,
41:14
my friends who've been in prison really got to know their policy
41:18
makers, like, my people now know their legislator to the point
41:21
where when they see her in Safeway, they give a hug, and
41:24
they, you know, how are you, you know, and, Christina, and what
41:27
about that bill that you're working on? And can we have
41:29
lunch tomorrow. And so there's this whole group of people that
41:32
have spent time in prison who are now on a first name basis
41:34
with their mayor with their city council, one of my friends who's
41:38
was in prison just got elected to the cameras, the city or
41:41
county council over in a small town, outside of Seattle. And
41:46
they built relationships to the point where the legislators are
41:48
calling them on their cell phone, like we're looking at a
41:50
bill right now. And we want to know how this is going to impact
41:52
your community. So it totally works. But how did they in their
41:57
wildest because the first one who started like, I never
41:59
thought I would talk to a state senator. And I'm like, she's
42:02
your neighbor, like, she wants to help you. And so they started
42:05
to build relationships. And then on other friends on us, you
42:09
know,
42:10
Davina Frederick: that can be replicated in all county state.
42:15
Unknown: Yeah, it's totally not that hard. And there's 100
42:18
million people who fall into this category. So if I had a
42:21
magic wand and all the money in the world, you know, you could
42:24
you can replicate this.
42:26
Davina Frederick: Well, this is where your this is where your
42:29
law of attraction and manifestation is going to come
42:31
into, you're put it out there, put it out there, and and the
42:35
more people that can put the energy around that, the more
42:38
powerful it will be. Before we wrap up today, I do I do want to
42:42
I've mentioned your book a couple times, I would love for
42:44
you to tell us kind of like you mentioned, you told me before we
42:48
started but I'd like you to share with everybody sort of how
42:50
you wound up writing the novel, because I know, I know another a
42:53
number of women law firm owners who have also written novels.
42:57
And but I'm an avid reader, and I'm also a writer, but writing a
43:04
novel is just a whole different thing for me. So I'm curious as
43:07
to what how did that come about? What made you decide to do that
43:14
Unknown: was a malpractice lawyer. And I, once it's sort of
43:19
like, same thing, like what you didn't know, you didn't know, I
43:21
didn't realize how messed up it is about how we value people's
43:25
lives and the legal system. So if you're an older person, and
43:28
you die, when I was malpractice lawyer and represent an older
43:31
person, they're like, well, they don't have a job. Now I made
43:34
general damages. And you know, they don't have any, you know,
43:36
they died and they're not worth very much. And I'm like, that is
43:39
so messed up. Like, I come from the medical world, wherever you
43:43
live, no matter who it is, you know, you bust your ass to save
43:46
them and to bring them, you know, give them the best that
43:49
you can give them in the legal system. It's like, well, if
43:51
you're like a 40 year old tech worker, you're worth more than a
43:54
80 year old grandpa or something. So that made me
43:58
crazy. And I wanted to like, write articles about it. And
44:01
then I thought, nobody's gonna read an article about valuing
44:03
lives in the human, you know, human lives in the justice
44:06
system. So I got this idea to write it into a novel of
44:09
another. I got another one just coming out in April. So the the
44:14
story in the first book is about an older guy, and that scene and
44:17
the first scene and that book came from rural case, by the
44:20
way, with the aorta and the puncture and everything. Wow,
44:23
that really happened. So it really happened, that guy died.
44:27
And then the insurance company kept saying he's not worth
44:29
anything. And I'm like, What are you talking like, it's bad. I
44:32
feel like it's wrong. So I wanted to bring that to light.
44:36
So this book is about this older guy who dies, and then the
44:39
protagonists and she was he was a special person in her life.
44:42
And so she's struggling with how the insurance company is trying
44:45
to devalue him. And she's trying to figure out like, how can you
44:48
really express the value of a person in the lives of the
44:50
people that love them? And is that something that our system
44:54
could do doing differently? So that was what made me want to
44:57
write it and then the second book is about a A baby who dies,
45:01
which I know is sad. But it's the same thing. Because when I
45:03
was doing malpractice, I did a lot of OB cases and if a baby is
45:09
injured in a birth injury, and then they live, then you've got
45:12
this multimillion dollar settlement because they're gonna
45:14
have to have life care for the rest of their life. But if
45:17
babies injured in a delivery maximum, your friends gonna like
45:20
this book is injured and my husband's an OBGYN. So he helped
45:24
me with this. Let's deliver if there's an injury in a delivery
45:28
room and the baby dies. And they're like, Well, you can have
45:30
another baby. So it's not really that valuable. So it's the same,
45:33
the insurance companies do the same thing. On the flip side,
45:36
you know, like an old person's not worth anything. And so the
45:39
second book I wrote was, because it made me crazy when I did a
45:42
lot of birth injury cases, if the baby died, they're like,
45:44
Well, what's you there's no damages? Like, what? What do you
45:46
want?
45:47
Davina Frederick: No damages. Wow. So I mean, and
45:51
Unknown: that's what got me going, but nobody wants. You had
45:56
to make it into like a mystery to make it fun and interesting
45:59
that people would want to engage with. So hopefully it is,
46:03
Davina Frederick: well, it sounds like you have embarked on
46:04
kind of a new career as a novelist. So we'll be looking
46:07
forward to those novels, you're gonna be like the famous
46:09
novelist now where every year, a new novel comes out. And we
46:13
anticipate every November, we're getting a new novel from you,
46:15
right?
46:16
Unknown: That's a series. So I'm like, we've got Camille's the
46:20
protagonist in theory. So the second one is her with a birth
46:23
injury case. And then the third one, which I'm writing now, of
46:26
course, now 20 years, because it's throat these 20 years ago,
46:30
the first time and then I read revamp them during COVID, and
46:33
publish them. But now that I've had like, 20 years of life, the
46:37
third one is about women in prison being reunited with their
46:39
children, and the legal issues around that. Another thing
46:43
that's funny about this is, when I wrote those books, the first
46:46
time I was the age of the protagonist, and now in the age
46:48
of her mother.
46:53
Davina Frederick: Did that happen? mother's gonna be a more
46:55
important character as we go on, you're obviously. Right. Oh,
47:01
that's fascinating. Amanda, thank you so much for being here
47:03
and talking with me today, time has really flown by, and we need
47:06
to end but tell us how we can first of all, tell us where we
47:09
can find the book to buy it for those who have it. And also tell
47:13
us how we can connect with you. If we want to connect with you
47:15
find out more information about you. And the work you're doing.
47:18
Um,
47:18
Unknown: well, the books on Amazon, but I'm kind of a
47:21
supporter of indie bookstores, there's a website called
47:24
bookshop.org, where you can order books and somehow they
47:28
come out of independent bookstores as opposed to Amazon
47:30
not to say anything bad about Amazon. But the book is called
47:33
The complication. And the second one is called deliver them from
47:36
evil. And that I have a website for my law firm, which is Dubois
47:43
law. dotnet. I think another URL that I got a Facebook page
47:47
that's going to author Facebook page, I have 3000, I'm almost
47:51
have 3000 Facebookers on my author page, which cracks me up
47:55
because I'm not really I'm learning Facebook as we go. But.
47:58
So that's Amanda DuBois, author, and then I guess, and then
48:01
LinkedIn, and all the other regular places.
48:05
Davina Frederick: Well, thanks for sharing. We'll include those
48:07
in the show notes so that people can just click on them and we'll
48:10
include bookshop is a bookshop. But Doc shop.org.org
48:17
Unknown: local bookstore, but it's kind of cool to support
48:20
independent bookstores, honestly. So
48:22
Davina Frederick: yeah, so thanks for being here. We'll
48:25
include those in the show notes for people who want to reach out
48:27
and they want to read her novel. I know all the lady lawyers are
48:31
gonna love that. And thanks again for being here. I've had
48:34
some
48:34
Unknown: tell your friends and nurse I want her feedback. Oh, I
48:38
Davina Frederick: will I absolutely. She loves to read.
48:40
She She and I both love to read a lot. So I'll definitely be
48:43
recommending that to her. All right. Thank you. All right.
48:48
Thanks for having me.