Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / SHOCKING RULING: BRYAN KOHBERGER IDAHO MURDER TRIAL MOVED AFTER FEAR OF THREATS

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SHOCKING RULING: BRYAN KOHBERGER IDAHO MURDER TRIAL MOVED AFTER FEAR OF THREATS · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: A shock ruling.
• 0:08
  Speaker 3: Brian Coburger charged in four murders of beautiful Idaho students
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: dead in their beds. His murder trial has been moved
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: after fear of threats. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us.
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: Brian Coberger's defense files for a trial venue change, citing extensive,
• 0:34
  Speaker 4: ongoing and inflammatory publicity. Will the motion be successful?
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: In a bombshell shock ruling, the Coburger trial will be moved.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: The judge in this case, his last name is Judge.
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  Speaker 3: Judge Judge, has decided that, based on alleged threats which
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: were developed during a defense poll a potential journal, the
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: trial should be moved. The judge also cites the fact
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  Speaker 3: that a larger courthouse may be more appropriate. Lota County
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  Speaker 3: has the population of around forty thousand people, not so
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: in a nearby county of Aida population about five hundred thousand.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: But here's the cash.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: Be careful what you wish for, you may surely get it.
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  Speaker 3: The defenses ask for a venue change, they've gotten a
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: venue change.
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  Speaker 2: But that's like having a tiger by the tail. You
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  Speaker 2: can't hold on it.
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  Speaker 1: You can't let go.
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  Speaker 3: What are you gonna do? You ask for it, you
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  Speaker 3: got it. There's no reversal on that now. But they
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: don't get to pick the jurisdiction. For all we know,
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: they could go to an even more conservative jurisdiction. Now
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  Speaker 3: what does that mean. I don't mean how they vote
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  Speaker 3: in an election. I mean how they feel and approach
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  Speaker 3: violent crime charges.
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  Speaker 2: Also, we've got.
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  Speaker 3: A by saying that the courthouse may be too small
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  Speaker 3: in Latta County that could indicate one of the few jurisdictions.
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  Speaker 2: Where there is a much larger courthouse.
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  Speaker 3: Joining me in All Star panel to make sense of
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  Speaker 3: what we know right now, But first listen to this.
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  Speaker 5: In pushing to have his trial moved out of Letaw County, Idaho,
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  Speaker 5: Brian Coberger's defense team says he will be lynched and
• 2:22
  Speaker 5: riots will erupt if he is acquitted of the murders
• 2:25
  Speaker 5: of four college students in the same town where the
• 2:27
  Speaker 5: murders occurred. Coburger's team argues he would be subjected to
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: mob mentality and cites alleged threats from local residents that
• 2:35
  Speaker 5: they would burn down the courthouse if he is acquitted.
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  Speaker 2: I want to make it very clear there is no
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  Speaker 2: lynch mob.
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  Speaker 3: There's no one circling the courthouse or the jail with
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  Speaker 3: pitchforks and torches. That's not happening. Where do these alleged
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: threats originate?
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  Speaker 2: Listen.
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  Speaker 6: Brian Coberger's defense team conducted a phone survey of hundreds
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  Speaker 6: of potential jurors in Leytog County, asking them multiple questions
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  Speaker 6: about their knowledge of the case. According to the defense team,
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  Speaker 6: there is a bias against Coburger, revealed in answers to
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  Speaker 6: questions such as what would happen if Coburger is not convicted?
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  Speaker 6: Potential jurors in Leytak County answered that question with they'd
• 3:17
  Speaker 6: burn the courthouse down. Outrage would be a mild description.
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  Speaker 6: They would probably find him and kill him, and there
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  Speaker 6: would likely be a riot, and he wouldn't last long
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  Speaker 6: outside because someone would do the good old boy justice
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  Speaker 6: and finally riots parents would take care of him.
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  Speaker 7: Hm.
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  Speaker 3: Now that was elicited. Those comments were elicited by the
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  Speaker 3: defense in a poll that they did with potential jurors. Now,
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  Speaker 3: what does that mean?
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  Speaker 2: Sometimes you got to read the tea leaves.
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  Speaker 3: What does it all mean? The riding on the wall,
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  Speaker 3: so to speak. The defense also mentioned another jurisdiction.
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  Speaker 5: Listen, the Coburger defense team that claims their survey shows
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  Speaker 5: a bias against Coburger and Laytak County suggests something different
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  Speaker 5: may happen in Aida County, where prospective jurors offered up
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  Speaker 5: very different responses to the same questions. Where prospective Leyta
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  Speaker 5: County jurors expect riots to occur, Aida County residents seem
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  Speaker 5: to think, quote, they would go on with life as always.
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  Speaker 5: Another perspective juror says, quote, I think they would take
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  Speaker 5: it well. Brian Coberger's defense team also points to the
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  Speaker 5: recent cases of Lori Valo Dabil and Chad Daybel, who
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  Speaker 5: had their trials moved from Fremont County to Ada County
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  Speaker 5: due to publicity.
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  Speaker 3: And in the cases of cultmom Laurie Valo and her
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  Speaker 3: prophet husband Chad Dabail. He gets the DP she does not.
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  Speaker 3: So what does that mean? What does that mean for Coburger?
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  Speaker 3: Again joining me in all Star pal to make sense
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  Speaker 3: of what we know right now, but straight out to
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: Howard Bloom spelled Blum pronounced Bloom like the Flower, author
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: of a hit book When the Night Comes Falling, a
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  Speaker 3: requiem for the Idaho student murderers, Howard, thank you.
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  Speaker 2: For being with us.
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  Speaker 3: What do you make of them getting a change of venue?
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  Speaker 2: The defense gets a change of venue. And I just
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  Speaker 2: want to tell you one more thing. Let me set
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  Speaker 2: you up.
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  Speaker 3: Many people are claiming, oh, the defendant gets everything he wants.
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  Speaker 2: This is wrong. Can I tell you something.
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  Speaker 3: It's going to be extremely onerous for the state to
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  Speaker 3: prove its case in another jurisdiction.
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  Speaker 2: However, when there is a.
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  Speaker 3: Conviction, and I predict there will be a conviction, everyone
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  Speaker 3: who complained.
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  Speaker 2: About the venue change will thank judge.
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  Speaker 3: Judge, because that's one last thing for the defense to
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  Speaker 3: bring up on appeal.
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  Speaker 2: And that's a very volatile issue on.
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  Speaker 3: Appeal, okay, because the appellate court has to take the
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  Speaker 3: facts as given them by the lawyers. They're not a
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  Speaker 3: fact finder, so they have to just basically read transcripts,
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  Speaker 3: so they have to discern should there have been of
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  Speaker 3: any change based on the transcripts everything the defense said.
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  Speaker 2: At that motion's hearing.
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  Speaker 3: So as painful as it is, I think the judge
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  Speaker 3: was correct, Howard.
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  Speaker 7: Bloom, I agree, he really had no choice. This is
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  Speaker 7: a death penalty case. It's going to come up for
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  Speaker 7: appeal he had to make sure that there was one
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  Speaker 7: less area for them to appeal about. What was so
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  Speaker 7: interesting to me, though, was that the prosecution really didn't
• 6:32
  Speaker 7: challenge the authorities, the experts that were brought forward by
• 6:36
  Speaker 7: the defense. They never did. Numbers were thrown at the judge.
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  Speaker 7: Sixty eight percent of the people in one county thought
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  Speaker 7: he was guilty, sixty seven and another county thought he
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  Speaker 7: was guilty. Why didn't the defense of the prosecution rather say,
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  Speaker 7: let's look at those numbers, let's look how they did
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  Speaker 7: the math. They never really did the hard work. And
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  Speaker 7: the key issue here is not really moving the case
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  Speaker 7: that I think was inevitable. But the real issue is,
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  Speaker 7: as you referred to earlier, judge, judge is going to
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  Speaker 7: be leaving. That brings in a whole new ballgame, a
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  Speaker 7: whole new judge who will look at discovery motions, who
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  Speaker 7: will try to have to catch up on the information.
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  Speaker 7: It means perhaps even more delays of the trial.
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  Speaker 2: Well, what happened in the hearing. In the hearing did the.
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  Speaker 3: Judge make any allusion to the fact he would no
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: longer be on the case.
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  Speaker 7: In his ruling and is written ruling, he put in
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  Speaker 7: language that says the decision is going to be decided
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  Speaker 7: by the administration of the Supreme Court of Idaho. That
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  Speaker 7: tacitly implies that the decision will be made, that he
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  Speaker 7: is leaving the case, and that a judgement that seems
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  Speaker 7: to be a certainty.
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  Speaker 2: Howard Blome, You're right.
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  Speaker 3: In the language the judge used to grant the chance
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: a venue, he did not include language specifically asking or
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  Speaker 3: stating he would stay on the case.
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  Speaker 2: That would be expected. That didn't happen. So we're going
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  Speaker 2: to have a whole new judge.
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  Speaker 3: Guys joining me in all star panel to figure out
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  Speaker 3: what this means for the trial that we now know
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  Speaker 3: is going forward we think is going forward next summer.
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  Speaker 5: Listen the Coburger defense team that claims their survey shows
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  Speaker 5: a bias against Coburger and Leaytak County suggests something different
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  Speaker 5: may happen in Aida County, where prospective jurors offered up
• 8:36
  Speaker 5: very different responses to the same questions. Where prospective Leyta
• 8:40
  Speaker 5: County jurors expect riots to occur, Aida County residents seem
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  Speaker 5: to think, quote they would go on with life as always.
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  Speaker 5: Another perspective juror says, quote I think they would take
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  Speaker 5: it well. Brian Coberger's defense team also points to the
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  Speaker 5: recent cases of Lori Valodabil and Chad Daybill, who had
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  Speaker 5: their trials moved from Fremont County to Ada County due
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  Speaker 5: to publicists.
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  Speaker 3: Straight out to Stephanie Pitcher, a defense attorney, former felony prosecutor,
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  Speaker 3: and she is with Parker and Maconcole. Stephanie, thank you
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  Speaker 3: for being with us. We've seen a lot of venue
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  Speaker 3: changes in high profile cases. But what in reality does
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  Speaker 3: this mean? What can you tell us about Ada County?
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  Speaker 2: Now? Just because the defense brings.
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  Speaker 3: Up Ada County and its motions does not mean that's
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  Speaker 3: where the trial is going to be. The Idaho Supreme
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  Speaker 3: Court will make that decision in its wisdom.
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  Speaker 1: But what about Aida County.
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  Speaker 8: The change of venue, we still don't know where this
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  Speaker 8: is going to go. It's up to the Supreme Court
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  Speaker 8: to make that decision. But I think the defense team
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  Speaker 8: is looking at Ada County as a possibility just due
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  Speaker 8: to the nature of the size of that county. There
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  Speaker 8: are many more prospective jurors that could join and weigh in.
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  Speaker 8: These same jurors aren't going to have the same bias
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  Speaker 8: that the defense team argues is present in law and
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  Speaker 8: so I think Ada County is at the top of
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  Speaker 8: people's minds simply due to the size Moscow.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, you're right.
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  Speaker 3: According to the last census they were at about thirty
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  Speaker 3: nine thousand, and Aida was about half a million. Of course,
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  Speaker 3: we also have heard discussions of boise as well as
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  Speaker 3: Stephanie Pitcher.
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  Speaker 2: What do you make of that?
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  Speaker 3: And in your experience of trying cases, how difficult is it?
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  Speaker 3: Of course, the state is the one that bears the burden,
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  Speaker 3: so it's much harder on the state.
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  Speaker 2: What do you make of that Boise?
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  Speaker 8: You know Boise, Yes, certainly, Boise is a possibility. I
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  Speaker 8: think that the outcome ultimately is going to be the same.
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  Speaker 8: We saw this with the Chad Dave Belt. Yeah, the
• 10:48
  Speaker 8: Chad and Lauren Voo cases as well. There was a
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  Speaker 8: change of venue. They went into Ada County, a much
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  Speaker 8: larger population of jurors. I think that the defense team
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  Speaker 8: is crossing their tees and dotting their eyes there things
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  Speaker 8: that they need to move on behalf of their client
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  Speaker 8: so that they don't see any ineffective assistance of council,
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  Speaker 8: so that they give him a strong defense. But ultimately
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  Speaker 8: I think that the outcome is going to be the
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  Speaker 8: same regardless of where it's moved.
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  Speaker 3: Joining us doctor Bethany Marshall or now psychoanalyst joining us
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  Speaker 3: out of LA, author of deal Breaker. You can see
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: her on Peacock as well, she said doctor Bethany Marshall
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: dot com Doctor Bethany, I understand why various family members
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  Speaker 3: are saying this is unfair that he always gets everything
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: he wants. He has been getting everything he wants in
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: a legal manner of speaking, but that is to ensure
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: the trial process and to ensure that a conviction is held.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: It's right this wasn't granted and then there was a conviction.
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  Speaker 3: This would be a huge avenue of appeal. But it
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: doesn't feel that way at the time for family members.
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  Speaker 9: No, Nancy, If they were in my office, I would
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  Speaker 9: do some thing called psycho education. That's where I would
• 12:02
  Speaker 9: educate them about the fact that going through a long,
• 12:05
  Speaker 9: prolonged court proceeding can feel victimizing or retraumatizing. At the
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  Speaker 9: same time, I would educate them.
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  Speaker 2: About the justice system.
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  Speaker 3: What did you just say about retraumatizing.
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  Speaker 9: The legal system often retraumatizes the victims. They have to
• 12:25
  Speaker 9: hear the same stories again and again. The outcome is
• 12:28
  Speaker 9: dependent on yours and a judge. They have to think, feel, eat, sleep,
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  Speaker 9: Brian Koberger for months and perhaps even years, and this
• 12:39
  Speaker 9: is going to make them feel re traumatized. And so
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  Speaker 9: I would try to educate them about the criminal justice
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  Speaker 9: system and the fact that these delays are actually in
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  Speaker 9: order to meet their needs, to meet the needs of
• 12:52
  Speaker 9: the victim, to find justice for their children, because at
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  Speaker 9: this point it doesn't seem that anybody's educating them in
• 13:00
  Speaker 9: the same way you are, Nancy. You're explaining to all
• 13:03
  Speaker 9: of us that dragging this out, which is how they're
• 13:06
  Speaker 9: going to experience it, actually ensures a conviction. It doesn't
• 13:10
  Speaker 9: sound like they really know that.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: The case is now going to be tried next summer.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: Are they talking about summer twenty five or summer twenty six?
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: By next summer.
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  Speaker 7: They are talking about summer twenty five. But that's just
• 13:24
  Speaker 7: what they're talking about now. Once there is a new
• 13:27
  Speaker 7: judge on the case, everything can be relooked at again.
• 13:31
  Speaker 7: We're really starting for scratch. What's also really interesting, I
• 13:35
  Speaker 7: think is a new judge can rule on discovery information
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  Speaker 7: what the defense really wants more than a change of venue,
• 13:43
  Speaker 7: I believe is to get more discovery information. They want
• 13:47
  Speaker 7: to see how this sausage was put together, how this
• 13:50
  Speaker 7: case was made. They've been complaining they really don't understand
• 13:53
  Speaker 7: how the authorities got onto Coburger. The key to that
• 13:57
  Speaker 7: is the genetic information. They want to see through the discovery,
• 14:01
  Speaker 7: how the FBI cracked the genetic investigation. Judge judge has
• 14:06
  Speaker 7: not given them sufficient information. Perhaps they believe a new
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  Speaker 7: judge will. That's the key issue here.
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  Speaker 3: I think, Okay, hold on, hold on right there, Bloom,
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: hold on right there. Hold the judge has given them
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: sufficient information, but I think that they will get even
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: more data. It's really simple how the l E in
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: the area law enforcement got on to Coburger, and it
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: really at the outset had nothing to do with DNA analysis.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: Joining me Chris McDonough, director of the Cold Case Foundation,
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: former homicide detective around three hundred homicides under his belt,
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: and host of the Interview Room on YouTube.
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  Speaker 2: Chris, thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 3: You and I have both spent a lot of time
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: in Moscow. It's a very small and very tight knit community,
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  Speaker 3: and it's a college community which many people consider to
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: be liberal. Don't know if that's always true, but that said,
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: it all started when Coburger was driving his car.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, good times. There we are outside the crime scene.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: When Coburger drove his car past a little gas station
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  Speaker 3: at about four a m.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: And a clerk pulled.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: It and saw an a Lantra. But at the very
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: outset an Lantra was mentioned. And it's my understanding Chris
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: McDonough that the campus security over where he Coburger was
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: studying to get his pH d, they pulled everybody that
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: had an Lantra and his name came up.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: That's how it all started with his car.
• 15:49
  Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean it was great initial gum shoe. You know,
• 15:54
  Speaker 10: police work where you know, they had a vehicle, they
• 15:58
  Speaker 10: had phone paying a variety you know, within that area.
• 16:02
  Speaker 10: They hadn't identified a phone yet initially, but they had
• 16:05
  Speaker 10: a vehicle on video coming up that street from that
• 16:10
  Speaker 10: one house on the corner. I would submit and still,
• 16:14
  Speaker 10: and all of a sudden they started looking for this
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  Speaker 10: car and long behold, a young patrol officer over at
• 16:22
  Speaker 10: you know, the Western University over there in Washington pulls
• 16:27
  Speaker 10: up this guy's car and goes, hey, wait a minute,
• 16:30
  Speaker 10: we got we got one right here, and they were
• 16:32
  Speaker 10: off to the races.
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: The judge officially sets Coburger's trial to begin in June
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: twenty twenty five, more than two and a half years
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: after the stabbing death. So, for Idaho students.
• 16:52
  Speaker 11: Our defence team firmly and I mean firmly believes in
• 16:58
  Speaker 11: mister Coberger's in a sense, and right now he's being
• 17:02
  Speaker 11: held to have a trial in a county that believes
• 17:06
  Speaker 11: that he is guilty. If you deny a change of venue,
• 17:09
  Speaker 11: mister Coberger's constitutional right to a fair trial is denied.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: In the last hours, the judge in this case, presiding
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: over the Coburger quadruple murder.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Case, has moved venue. Whole new courthouse, whole, new judge,
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: all new rulings.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: We'll see where that lands the defense. But let's just
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: get a reality check. What is his case all about?
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Before we get mired down in legal minutia.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: What's it all about?
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University,
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: author of Blood.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Beneath My Feet and star of a hitting new.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Series podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott,
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: you know I think this is a lot when I
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: was trying cases, and now I look at every body
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: all dressed to the nines, perfectly groomed in court, the
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: defendant flanked by his lawyers, both council tables covered in
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: documents and legal research and exhibits, and all the media.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Sitting there quietly to take you notes.
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  Speaker 12: Everything is so pristine and so perfect.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Ain't it? But that is not what this case is about.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: This case is about these the four victims that were brutally,
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: brutally murdered, unarmed, many of them in their own beds,
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: at the witching hour between three and four o'clock in
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: the morning.
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  Speaker 2: What happened to.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: These four beautiful Idaho students, sharp.
• 18:52
  Speaker 13: Force injuries, multiple of them, on probably all four victims, Nancy,
• 18:59
  Speaker 13: and and we're talking about an individual that moved, whoever
• 19:04
  Speaker 13: did this attack, moved between several floors while they were
• 19:07
  Speaker 13: perpetrating this, And there would not be a pristine environment.
• 19:12
  Speaker 13: You're talking about probably a supersaturated area involving blood that
• 19:19
  Speaker 13: would have been adjacent to the bodies on the bodies.
• 19:22
  Speaker 13: And isn't that the contrast You talk about this kind
• 19:26
  Speaker 13: of pristine courtroom environment, and then they're going to introduce
• 19:29
  Speaker 13: these images into the courtroom, and you're going to hear
• 19:32
  Speaker 13: people like myself and certainly the forensic pathologists. They're going
• 19:36
  Speaker 13: to sit there and they're going to talk about how
• 19:38
  Speaker 13: brutal these killings were. They're going to talk about stab
• 19:41
  Speaker 13: wounds as well as in sized wounds. We know of
• 19:44
  Speaker 13: one victim that her hands was cut down allegedly to
• 19:48
  Speaker 13: her tendons. So this is the height of brutality. And
• 19:54
  Speaker 13: I can understand while they're worried about this, the defense
• 19:57
  Speaker 13: that is, because when it's revealed, it is going to
• 20:00
  Speaker 13: shock the court, and I think, probably to a certain extent,
• 20:04
  Speaker 13: shock all of us as well. We don't know the
• 20:06
  Speaker 13: full extent.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: Yet, you know, Joe Scott, When I think about the victim,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: one of them waking up and saying, somebody's here, you know,
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: they're groggy, These four Moscow students, Idaho University students, waking
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: up and groggy and confused. I could no more fight
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: off an armed killer at four o'clock in the morning
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: than the man in the moon. But this guy, the killer,
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: was awake and alert, dressed in black, wearing a mask.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: After surveilling them for the Lord only knows how long,
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: for just the right night, just the right moment, just
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: the right minute, and then slashed them to death in
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: that groggy, nocturnal Some ambulance state that they weren't in
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: scott they couldn't fight back.
• 21:03
  Speaker 13: Yeah, their pain centers would have been firing, and that
• 21:06
  Speaker 13: would have been the first Well, they probably would have
• 21:07
  Speaker 13: felt the weight and then their pain shats firing.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Their pain centers start firing.
• 21:13
  Speaker 13: What do you mean, Well, every time this and keep
• 21:16
  Speaker 13: in mind, the weapon that they're talking about, Nancy, is
• 21:18
  Speaker 13: a kpar and the length of this blade is listen
• 21:22
  Speaker 13: to me now, seven inches in the link seven inches
• 21:26
  Speaker 13: of steel, Okay, that you're talking about. So we're talking
• 21:30
  Speaker 13: about stab wounds, which people understand is where a blade
• 21:33
  Speaker 13: is inserted. And we're also talking about in sized wounds
• 21:36
  Speaker 13: allegedly where things are slid. That well, let's just think
• 21:41
  Speaker 13: about And the way I compare it when I teach
• 21:44
  Speaker 13: my students is we'll take actually a piece of fruit
• 21:48
  Speaker 13: and take a knife and draw it across the surface
• 21:51
  Speaker 13: of it, and depend upon how much pressure is applied,
• 21:54
  Speaker 13: that correlates to the depth of the injury. Now you've
• 21:57
  Speaker 13: got individuals here that are they're aware of this, and
• 22:02
  Speaker 13: there's going to be a lot of twisting and turning.
• 22:05
  Speaker 13: That's why every time this knife is introduced into their body,
• 22:09
  Speaker 13: onto any shod Okay.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: Slow down, I'm trying to take it in. Let me
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: drinking from the fire. Hiject twisting and turning. What does
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: that have to do with anything? Of course they're trying
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: to get away in there.
• 22:20
  Speaker 13: Yeah, but it's also the pain. It's the response. That's
• 22:23
  Speaker 13: why I said the response to the paint center's firing,
• 22:26
  Speaker 13: because I mean, just think about it. Even if you're
• 22:27
  Speaker 13: in a groggy state, once those receptors are firing, it's
• 22:30
  Speaker 13: going to your brain. The first thing you want to do.
• 22:33
  Speaker 13: It's like a beasting. You want to try to get
• 22:34
  Speaker 13: away from it. Well just imagine this happening to you
• 22:37
  Speaker 13: over and over and over again, and so that gives
• 22:42
  Speaker 13: you an idea. And I like the way you painted this.
• 22:45
  Speaker 13: How they're in this kind of groggy state. It's dark.
• 22:49
  Speaker 13: I don't know about you, like sleep in a dark bedroom,
• 22:51
  Speaker 13: can't sleep with a lot of light. And also one
• 22:54
  Speaker 13: other thing, it would have taken them maybe a bit
• 22:56
  Speaker 13: more time to respond. There's some indication that they may
• 22:59
  Speaker 13: have all been out that night. I think that we
• 23:01
  Speaker 13: kind of understand that alcohol may have been in vibe,
• 23:04
  Speaker 13: so that's going to be a factor too, and their
• 23:06
  Speaker 13: ability to respond it, to defend themselves. Nanswer.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: Just thinking about what you are saying. You said something
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: about pain receptors firing. I'm trying to understand what that means.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: Them getting out of bed and they're totally out of it,
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: and the first thing they register.
• 23:27
  Speaker 12: Is intense, unbelievable pain from being stabbed repeatedly where a
• 23:35
  Speaker 12: seven inch blade, as you said, seven inches of steel.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: Yes, you say the pain receptors start firing. I guess
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: that means they're brought to screams, to tears out of
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: the pain.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Is that what that means?
• 23:52
  Speaker 13: Yes, absolutely, it's a reactive event. It's very primal. And
• 23:56
  Speaker 13: here's the other thing that people might not be aware of.
• 23:59
  Speaker 13: We have we have two people in each room that
• 24:04
  Speaker 13: were attacked, So there would be an awareness perhaps obviously
• 24:08
  Speaker 13: of the first person that's being attacked of their pain
• 24:11
  Speaker 13: centers firing, and then the other person if they are
• 24:15
  Speaker 13: able to, if they're coming out of the scrogginess, they're
• 24:18
  Speaker 13: going to hear a sound and it will be reactive.
• 24:20
  Speaker 13: The trick is that you know, and you have to
• 24:23
  Speaker 13: understand this. They couldn't react quick enough either, even though
• 24:26
  Speaker 13: someone else was initially stuffed, you know.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: To doctor Bethany Marshall going off, jumping off what Professor
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Joseph Scott Morgan has just told us.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Think about where's Bethany.
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: Bethany the defense gets With all of this in mind,
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: the pain I'd rather endure itt myself than think my
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: child lived through what these four lived through.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Now think about it.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: The parents of these poor victims have had to hear
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: about he wants the laptop, he wants more visits with
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: his priest and his lawyer, he wants a special diet,
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: he wants a lone time, he wants exercise, he wants
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: internet access.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, does it never end? And they have.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: To go to bed every night thinking about their children
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: and their pain receptors and being wrint to shreds by
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: the killer.
• 25:25
  Speaker 9: And this is the problem with trials with these psychopaths
• 25:28
  Speaker 9: like Brian Koberger. Not only do they get off on
• 25:31
  Speaker 9: the crime, the infliction of pain, the stealth, the whole
• 25:36
  Speaker 9: activity that the crime is planned out to give him
• 25:39
  Speaker 9: the utmost satisfaction and sexual pleasure. But now he's in
• 25:45
  Speaker 9: court and the crime is being relived, it's being talked about,
• 25:49
  Speaker 9: he's being shown images of it. Who knows underneath that
• 25:52
  Speaker 9: flat effect what he's really feeling and thinking. It could
• 25:57
  Speaker 9: be sexual excitement, it could be a thrill, It could
• 26:00
  Speaker 9: be like we saw with Rex Huerman who called the victims'
• 26:03
  Speaker 9: families sort of this satisfaction that the family members are
• 26:07
  Speaker 9: sitting there. Now they have to live through it. So
• 26:10
  Speaker 9: this is the re victimization and the retraumatization that the
• 26:14
  Speaker 9: family is going to go through, you know, Nancy, Trauma
• 26:18
  Speaker 9: doesn't just come from us being hurt. Trauma is when
• 26:22
  Speaker 9: you see that a loved one has been hurt. It's
• 26:25
  Speaker 9: really witnessing the pain and the suffering of.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: The other, not the self.
• 26:29
  Speaker 9: And I think about these victims. I think what happened
• 26:32
  Speaker 9: in that night too, besides the pain centers being activated,
• 26:36
  Speaker 9: is that they were extremely disoriented and they were in
• 26:39
  Speaker 9: a bed.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: There was no place to go.
• 26:42
  Speaker 9: It was dark, and for any of your viewers have
• 26:44
  Speaker 9: been in a car accident or some construction accident, at first,
• 26:48
  Speaker 9: you have no idea what's happening. And that's part of
• 26:51
  Speaker 9: trauma too, is that there's a sudden intrusion of something
• 26:54
  Speaker 9: that's completely unanticipated for which there's no frame of reference.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: Prosecutors plan to seek the death penalty for the accused
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: Idaho Students murderer.
• 27:07
  Speaker 14: The question of where the Brian Coberger trial will commence
• 27:10
  Speaker 14: will be answered by the Idaho Supreme Court. Under Idaho
• 27:14
  Speaker 14: court rules, judges who grant motions to move trials can
• 27:17
  Speaker 14: indicate if they want to remain on the case. Judge
• 27:20
  Speaker 14: John Judge did not do so in his order, instead
• 27:23
  Speaker 14: granting the motion under a rule that provides for a
• 27:25
  Speaker 14: new judge to be assigned. It is not clear when
• 27:28
  Speaker 14: the Idaho Supreme Court will assign a new venue or
• 27:31
  Speaker 14: a new judge, and the question of whether these changes
• 27:34
  Speaker 14: will force a delay in the trial date is unclear.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: And again Oscar Wilde said of the best to.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: Be careful what you ask, my dear for you will
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: surely get it.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: So they get a new venue.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Fine.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: I would have been surprised if that had not been
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: granted in the case of this magnitude and of this publicity.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: But that also means.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: A new judge.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: And I got to tell you there were judges I
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: would actually.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: When I would find out my case was assigned to
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: that judge, they would be extremely defense oriented. Possibly you know,
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: the judge had been a public defender their whole life
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: and then got appointed to the bench and just really
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: hated the state. Not me, not anybody, not a witness
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: on my side, just had a bias.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Against the state, and I would hate it.
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: Or you'd have a rude judge, a horrible judge, a
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: hateful judge.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: They're on the bench too.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: So you might have.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: Let me just say I had one judge so smart,
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: I will not reveal his name, and he would sit
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: back in his chambers with his law clerk and they
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: would drink tea imported from Great Britain with China, you know,
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: the very delicate china. We'd all be in the courtroom
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: waiting and the judge would be drinking tea, talking about
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: I don't want to go out there.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: It's just not fun anymore.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Fun, my rear end.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Get up on the bench and do your duty.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: Yes, So it's like have you ever been at the
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: fair and you pay ten cents for the grab bag
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: and you poke your hand and you pull something out.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: That's what you're getting. It's also called a pig and
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: a poke.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: You know, you don't know what you're getting out of
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: that bag, and you might just get a pig, which
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: is something you may not want.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: So they're getting the change of venue. But who will the.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: Judge be straight out to? Chris mcdona. He's been in
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: front of plenty of judges. He's now the star of
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: the interview room on YouTube and you can find him
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: at Coldcasefoundation dot org.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: And he's got all these accolades for a reason.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: Former homicide investigator and handled around three hundred homicide scenes.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: Chris mcdona, the judge can make all the difference. I've
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: had a but chewing by so many judges, held and contempt,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: you name it.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: You don't want that judge.
• 29:59
  Speaker 10: You definitely don't want that judge for sure, Nancy. And
• 30:03
  Speaker 10: you know the family doesn't want that judge either. And
• 30:06
  Speaker 10: in this situation, what I think one of the things
• 30:10
  Speaker 10: that we have to take a look at is the
• 30:13
  Speaker 10: frustration that the family has because the judge now has
• 30:17
  Speaker 10: recreused himself and said, hey, you know what, because of
• 30:21
  Speaker 10: these other reasons, I'm going to pull out of this
• 30:23
  Speaker 10: as well and give you somebody else. Well, that's a
• 30:26
  Speaker 10: big win for the defense. In my opinion. You know,
• 30:29
  Speaker 10: I've been in that circumstance where you know, you think
• 30:32
  Speaker 10: everything's going well and next thing, you know what you
• 30:34
  Speaker 10: are in front of this new guy. And what was
• 30:37
  Speaker 10: interesting his ruling. On page sixteen of his ruling, he
• 30:42
  Speaker 10: said a reasonable likelihood that the prejudicial news coverage will
• 30:47
  Speaker 10: compromise a fair trial.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: The judge referred to international news coverage. Now, I don't
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: know how moving to Ada County is going to escape
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: international news coverage.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: But fine, I'd be mad if you didn't go ahead.
• 31:00
  Speaker 10: Yeah, and then he brings into the logistics arguments, right, well,
• 31:06
  Speaker 10: I have to think how long has he been thinking
• 31:09
  Speaker 10: about this, that there aren't enough deputies, there aren't enough clerks,
• 31:14
  Speaker 10: the jurors could be tainted.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Has it been over a year?
• 31:17
  Speaker 10: And if so, why didn't he pull the trigger earlier?
• 31:20
  Speaker 10: That's one of the things that I have to question,
• 31:24
  Speaker 10: you know, this judge about this ruling for that reason wrong.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: If the judge grants a change of venue, will Brian
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: Cooberger face a more conservative jury? How would travel to
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: a new location affect proceedings?
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: Well, there have been a lot of high profile venue changes.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Let me give you a few. I came up with
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: last night.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: Well, Simpson of course got moved, and that resulted in
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: a not guilty. That Rodney King case moved. Timothy McVeigh
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: didn't make a difference.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: I was just looking at colleges with the twins in DC,
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: and I was telling them about the Beltway snipers, remember them,
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: the Sharpshooters, Lee Boyd Malvo and John Alan Mohammad, And
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: how I would fly to d C to do the
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Larry King show two or three times a week and
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: people would be afraid to even leave the parking lot,
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: leave the airport to go to their cars. Everyone was
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: in so much fear of the snipers, the DC snipers.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: Then of course there's Scott Peterson. Don't want to leave
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: him out of any murder discussion. His eventy was changed
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: to Redwood City. Lacy was killed, we believe in Modesto.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: Oh there he is there, he is great shot. And
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: it got moved to Redwood City. I know it very
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: well because I lived there for about four months during
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: the trial. Then there is Fred toe Cars. May he
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: write in hell he.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Murdered his wife.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: And his two children in the backs seat, one of
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: them said, mommy's head blew up like a pumpkin. His
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: case was actually moved from Atlanta to Birmingham, a different.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: State because it's a federal case.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: It's not true here, It's going to be moved somewhere
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: in Idaho.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Then you've got John Wayne Gacy. Now that had a
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: different twist.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: Gasey's trial was not moved, but the jury was moved.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: They brought in jurors from another jurisdiction. Then there's Justin
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: Ross Harris. Okay, he just got reversed. He left his child,
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: baby Cooper, in the car and Cooper died while he
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: was sexting underage teens about sex.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: His case was moved.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: From Cobb County and metro Atlanta to Savannah. As I
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: recall on the coast Kristin Smart, that case was moved,
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: And of course we always bring up Lorie Vallow. Her
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: case was moved to Ada County near Boise. Long story short,
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: long story short. She didn't get the death penalty for
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: other reasons. Her prophet husband did after his case was moved.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: So there is a.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: Long and rich history of changing venues and very often
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: it has no effect on the outcome of the case.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: But I contrary to what a lot of people are
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: saying support judge, judge, because in the end, if there
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: is a conviction, God willing, there will be a true verdict.
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: This is one last grounds of appeal. I want to
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: talk about something we observed in court. No matter what
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: the topic is, Coburger remains with a flat affect.
• 34:42
  Speaker 6: Listen years before he allegedly murdered for college students, Brian
• 34:46
  Speaker 6: Koeberger talks of having no real feelings, that he feels
• 34:49
  Speaker 6: nothing when he looks at his own family, going so
• 34:51
  Speaker 6: far as to say, quote, as I hug my family,
• 34:54
  Speaker 6: I look into their faces, I see nothing. It is
• 34:57
  Speaker 6: like I am looking at a video game. But less
• 35:00
  Speaker 6: from any teenager, that would be a sad, scary comment,
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: but coming from Coburger at age sixteen, from someone suspected
• 35:08
  Speaker 6: of multiple homicides just ten years later, maybe it's a warning.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: As I hug my family, I'll look into their faces.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: I see nothing. It's like I'm looking at a video game.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: But less. Of course, I'm going to go to doctor Bethny.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Marshall, but first to Howard Bloom, author.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: Of As of Right Now, The definitive book on Brian
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Coberger is called When the Night Comes Falling a requiem
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: for the Idaho student murders. And I've got to tell you,
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: I read every word and you had so much evidence
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: and so many facts that many people, including myself, didn't know,
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: and it was really illuminating, Howard, very illuminating. I want
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: to talk to you about this flat ethic we've see.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: No matter what's happening in court, I'm wondering if they're
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: going to try to school him as to how to
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: act in front a jury like he has feelings. What
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: do you make of it?
• 35:58
  Speaker 7: Well, first of all, all the facts, all the change
• 36:01
  Speaker 7: of venue, lead back to one thing is alibi. And
• 36:06
  Speaker 7: the alibi is so thin, so specious that he was
• 36:11
  Speaker 7: asto stargazing at four am in the park where no
• 36:15
  Speaker 7: one could see him on a cloudy night. That's the
• 36:17
  Speaker 7: best they could come up with. So, as you say,
• 36:20
  Speaker 7: changing the.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Venue affect affect, hold on.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: You know what my old co anchor, Johnny Cochrane, God
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: rest his soul. He had Simpson oj Simpson acting engaged
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: in court, and when he couldn't act engaged, he had
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: him do to like he was taking legal notes. This
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: is what he was writing. I'm pretty sure, but I
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: can't prove that. Since Cochrane has gone on to the
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: Great Beyond and Simpson's dead, I know where he is hell.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: But my point is I'm trying to get to his affect,
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: Howard Bloom his ethic, it never changes. I mean, did
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: you see the video of him when he got pulled
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: over by a cop.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Let's see it.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Go ahead, Howard.
• 37:01
  Speaker 7: Well, he stares straight ahead. He almost looks he's totally detached.
• 37:05
  Speaker 7: What he has done is change his wardrobe. He had
• 37:08
  Speaker 7: palmades his hair now for cord. For the last court
• 37:11
  Speaker 7: hearing was the first time he didn't wear a tie
• 37:13
  Speaker 7: open next shirt, but usually he wears a suit and
• 37:16
  Speaker 7: a tie. He looks very proper and then stares straight ahead.
• 37:20
  Speaker 7: When Ann Taylor comes up to him on times, she
• 37:23
  Speaker 7: puts her arm around him maternally even and he does
• 37:27
  Speaker 7: not budge. He seems as if.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: He's already been droked.
• 37:32
  Speaker 7: Who knows his state seems very controlled, almost catatonic.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: He's not drugged, Howard. That's his athet. Doc to Bethany Marshall.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Look, I don't know if you can see this video,
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: but he shows no emotion.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: In fact, he's basically schooling this lady traffic officer on
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: what she did wrong.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Hello, Okay, Nancy.
• 37:54
  Speaker 9: He has what I call dead eyes, and sociopaths do.
• 37:57
  Speaker 9: It's like there is nothing there. Flat affect is one
• 38:02
  Speaker 9: of the twenty features of psychopathy that is one of
• 38:06
  Speaker 9: the signs when you do a full assessment. They don't
• 38:08
  Speaker 9: feel anything. They don't feel attachment, they don't feel love,
• 38:13
  Speaker 9: they don't feel joy. The only thing they can feel
• 38:17
  Speaker 9: is cruelty and the thrill of killing other people. So
• 38:21
  Speaker 9: power and sadism seem to be the only thing that
• 38:24
  Speaker 9: they can feel. And they have something Nancy called alexithymia.
• 38:28
  Speaker 9: That means that they use the same words you and
• 38:32
  Speaker 9: I would use, like oh I'm happy, Oh I was
• 38:34
  Speaker 9: with my family, but the words don't have the depth
• 38:38
  Speaker 9: of meaning for them. And this is not like let's say,
• 38:42
  Speaker 9: someone who's traumatized, so they dissociate and they cut off
• 38:45
  Speaker 9: from their feelings. This is much more primary and biological.
• 38:49
  Speaker 9: This means he was born this way without affect or
• 38:53
  Speaker 9: internal experience.
• 38:55
  Speaker 14: As a teen, Brian Koberger makes posts in a form
• 38:58
  Speaker 14: website Tapa Tak talks about visual snow, a condition that
• 39:02
  Speaker 14: causes one's vision to be obscured by floating dots, adding
• 39:06
  Speaker 14: he struggles with the constant thought of suicide.
• 39:10
  Speaker 15: Denette jene Elg reports to police she has a prowler.
• 39:14
  Speaker 15: Days later, her mutilated body is found on her punctured
• 39:17
  Speaker 15: water bed. Dennette suffers fifteen stab wounds, but did manage
• 39:22
  Speaker 15: to inflict injury on her attacker, Richard Albert Levitt. After
• 39:26
  Speaker 15: killing Denette, Levitt removed her sexual organs, then goes to
• 39:30
  Speaker 15: the emergency room for his own wounds. Levitt's blood at
• 39:33
  Speaker 15: the saint becomes part of the evidence that convicts Levitt,
• 39:37
  Speaker 15: and he is sentenced to death. Levitt spends nearly thirty
• 39:40
  Speaker 15: years on death row before the sentence is carried out
• 39:43
  Speaker 15: by lethal injection.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: June twelfth, twenty twelve.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: Change of venues don't always help killers. To Stephanie Pitcher,
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: joining u S high profile lawyer out of this jurisdiction
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: working with Parker and maconcle What do you make of it, Stephanie,
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: I'm sure you've tried cases where the venue is changed,
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: or in the alternative, you bust in your rs from
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: another jurisdiction. They have to stay sequestered in a hotel,
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: but that way hundreds of personnel and witnesses don't have
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: to be busted to another jurisdiction, just the jurrrs. What
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: is your experience on that and do you believe it
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: makes a difference.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:27
  Speaker 8: I have tried cases where the venue has been changed,
• 40:30
  Speaker 8: and you know, by and large, I find that the
• 40:33
  Speaker 8: outcome is unchanged. The defense in this case gets the
• 40:37
  Speaker 8: benefit of having a larger pool of jurors, but the
• 40:40
  Speaker 8: evidence doesn't change. The witnesses don't change. Certainly there's more
• 40:44
  Speaker 8: space at the courtroom to accommodate witnesses and media and
• 40:47
  Speaker 8: things like that. The bottom line is the evidence doesn't change.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: That is the bottom line.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: I think the only way the evidence will be affected
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: that goes before the jury is because of the change
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: of judge.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: What evidence the new judge.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Will allow in We wait for justice for the University.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: Of Idaho victims. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend.