Latest / Unfolding: a circular economy podcast / Episode 3 Andy Deacon

Transcript

Episode 3 Andy Deacon · Unfolding: a circular economy podcast

• Iain Gulland: Hello, welcome to Unfolding, a podcast which is going to unfold the circular economy. Wayne: We're going to explore the current state of circularity progress and crucially how we can all be part of accelerating the transition and take action to combat linear locking, whether we're policymakers, businesses or citizens. Iain Gulland: So in the first series of episodes, we're really going to focus on in the run up to COP 31 later this year in Turkey, where the circular economy has been highlighted as one of the core, yeah, one of the core action areas in the battle to reduce climate emissions. Wayne: And we will be talking to a range of experts with knowledge of the process who can give us their take on how national governments can incorporate circular economy principles into climate mitigation strategies. Iain Gulland: And then we're actually going to go to COP where we plan to take forward all of the things we've learned through the podcast series and try and influence the COP outcome as well as continue the dialogue with those people already at the COP. Wayne: So thanks for tuning in and why don't you join us in this journey on the road to Antalya. Iain Gulland: So I'm Ian Gulland, I am the former Chief Exec of Zero Waste Scotland. I was also past president of ACR +, which is a pan-European network of cities and regions promoting more sustainable resource management and the circular economy. Wayne: And I'm Wayne Hubbard, former CEO of ReLondon and former member of the UK's Circular Economy Task Force. And together we have over 60 years experience working in waste and the circular economy. I still can't believe that number. Iain Gulland: I can't believe it. Have you actually added that up or did you just pick a number? I don't know. Over 60 years. It does Wayne: Have I made it up? I picked a number. Iain Gulland: make us feel old. But anyway, myself and Wayne are going to be talking to a range of exciting guests over what is going to be about 10 weeks in the run up to COP. We're going to try to understand a little bit more about the COP process itself, but then try and explore what we could expect, what we should expect. by way of agreements or pledges or implementation plans specifically around the Circle Economy, potentially is going to come out of COP, as well as get into the wider discussion about the Circle Economy transition over. Wayne: And as ever, there is an opportunity for listeners to feed in their thoughts and questions as we go along. So do get in touch via email or leave a comment below. And yes, even to suggest future guests we might like to include, we're keen to make this as interactive and interesting as possible. So without further ado, let's get into the episode. Wayne Hubbard: we're delighted to have with us today, Andy Deakin, ex colleague of mine from the GLA, longtime friend, and also, well, you introduce yourself, Andy, what role you have in GComm and who GComm are and what your priorities are. Andy Deacon (GCoM): Fantastic. Thank you, Wayne, for inviting me to take part in this discussion. Looking forward to getting into it over the next few minutes. But I'm Andy Deakin, co-managing director of the Global Covenant of Mayors for Climate and Energy, or GECOM, to keep things much shorter. It's the world's largest alliance of cities that are committed to taking action on climate change. and it brings together more than 14,000 cities around the world. And it's also fairly unique in terms of its funding model. So the initiative is co-chaired by Mike Bloomberg and supported by the team from Bloomberg Philanthropies with some philanthropic backing and funding, but also by European Commission Executive Vice President Theresa Ribera, who looks after the Green Deal and other. issues for the European Commission. So we bring together both some of that kind of institutional backing, but also the philanthropic side of things and combine that support to help those cities take kind of measurable, meaningful climate action. And that's basically the purpose of our alliance is to turn climate ambition into action. We want to help cities access finance. strengthen what we refer to as multi-level governance, so the ability for cities to work with state and region actors to engage with their national governments and international processes, and basically to work to be able to scale practical climate solutions through research, innovation, support, and peer-to-peer learning, just putting cities, mayors, their leaders, their technical teams together to exchange on practical solutions. And I will just say, I guess last part of the introductory opening, this year is a particularly significant one for us. We're 10 years old, Alliance, and we've now got to the size where across those 14,000 or so cities that one in seven people across the globe live in a city that have made a political commitment to the global covenant. And that basically means that they've undertaken to deliver action that's at least as ambitious as their respective national government. Iain Gulland: Yeah, brilliant. Well, happy birthday, Andy. Andy Deacon (GCoM): Thank you. Iain Gulland: Just for my own benefit, clarity there. So you talk about 14,000 cities. Are they all members, are all part of the global covenant? Is there others? I Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yes. Iain Gulland: mean, I guess I'm trying to think, my God, how many cities are there in the world? What is... Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, you look at certain countries. So we've had some dedicated support programs in Brazil, for example, they're around five and half thousand cities in Brazil alone. And so, you know, just to give you an idea of sort of orders of magnitude. And basically, we work through a series of 13 regional and national covenants of mayors. So some just for individual countries, partly for a kind of linguistic reasons. So for example, there's a Covenant of Mayors for Japan, you know, just given the linguistic specificity. But for example, we've got a Covenant of Mayors for all of the European member states, Covenant of Mayors Europe and a Covenant of Mayors for Latin America. that would include those five and a half thousand cities in Iain Gulland: Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): Brazil, but many, many more besides. And if you like those regional centers, the Global Alliance is the umbrella Iain Gulland: Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): that kind of brings all of them together with a number of the big global city networks. So ICLEI, C40 and United Cities and local governments. So we have a global advisory board of mayors taken from a number of those regions. 10 mayors. And we've got cities in there with several million inhabitants. So for example, Yokohama in Japan. But you know, all the way down to, you know, we previously had Chefchaouen in Morocco, somewhere between 40 and 45,000 inhabitants and even previously the wonderful city of Despenadero in Argentina with something like between 8 9,000 people. But in that case, you know, leading some fantastic work in that case in particular around women, female-led climate action. importantly as well for us, so not in terms of the number of cities, but in terms of the population represented for us, 61 % of the 1.2 billion. people within those 14,000 cities. So just over 60 % is in the global south. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): Just thinking about issues like circular economy, mean, looking at where the most rapid urbanisation is likely to be over the coming kind of decade or so, then obviously huge growth expected in particular in parts of sub-Saharan Africa and south and southeast. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): and Asia and bits of Latin America. So very important for us to be sure, you know, that this isn't just a global North, you know, kind of alliance. We're there to share experience kind of South South, you know, as well as drawing on the experience from some of those cities who've moved a bit earlier from, you know, kind of Europe, North America and elsewhere. but really to empower city leaders who want to be ready to face some of the enormous growth that's coming in the next decade. Iain Gulland: Okay, well, let's get into that. You mentioned circular economy, because that's after all, it's what this is about this podcast, Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yes. Iain Gulland: the circular economy and inclusion of the circular economy within the COP 31 agenda. So some of us would say that's about time. You know, it's really probably the first time it's been formalized in that way within the kind of overall agenda topics and key areas for action. What are people beginning to talk about in your network? Are they excited about this? The fact that the circular economy is on the agenda? Are you developing proposals to bring potential pledges or whatever? Andy Deacon (GCoM): it's an interesting one for us. part of the mechanism that we use to, you know, be able to track progress and deliver meaningfully against all of that ambition is a number of what we call delivery pathways. And one of those is a very large global program called Innovate for Cities. convenes a major conference gathering every two years, co-convened with UN Habitat, but is really looking at how we can embed what for many of those cities is still seen as relatively innovative approaches together. And that's underpinned by something called the Global Research and Action Agenda on Cities and Climate Science, which draws on the underlying science from the governmental panel on climate change. But is then looking at what does that mean for individual cities? How do they take the findings of that work and think about how that gets implemented? And how does some of that underlying evidence, if you like, support both what goes into climate action plans, but then what are the projects that cities are implementing? in order to embed them. And in some senses, some of that is very hard to separate from, if you like, slightly more traditional waste and recycling considerations. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, Andy Deacon (GCoM): project pipelines for waste management facilities and thinking about all of that is one thing. But some of the more ambitious and innovative cities want to go further and faster. you know, I mentioned either than their national governments, but to be seen as leaders in some of these innovation areas. And that's a bit what Innovate for Cities is there to try to do, to provide space to identify those topics where cities want that leadership, and then to provide some mechanisms to link cities who want to understand some of those issues a bit better. and then to advance work. I'm sure you're both well aware, many of your listeners will have understood. Effectively, much of our work is focused on emissions-based accounting that, if you like, is still production rather than consumption-based. So it's scope one and scope two emissions. We don't mandate that cities should be fully accounting for scope three consumption-based emissions. And in terms of levers and drivers to stimulate some more work on circular economy, then you'll see more cities kind of starting to track those emissions and famously the... group of mega cities, the C40, produced together with Arup some research back in 2019, 2020 on consumption based emissions that shows that kind of that would add, I think it was something like 50 % to the emissions total that's accounted for through scopes one and two. We were just talking a few minutes ago about this enormous variation in the size of cities. That goes to their capacity also to be able to address some of these issues. Typically, many of the GCOM cohort are not cities with multi-member sustainability teams who are ready to deliver on the climate action plans. It's much, much, much smaller cities who are grappling with multiple. issues and I think Wayne Hubbard: Thank Andy Deacon (GCoM): part of what we'll need to see in order to advance circular economy topics is a mechanism to kind of bring some of the underpinning circular thinking a bit more into the mainstream and to mainstream those approaches into climate action planning and thinking about where we're going. But at the moment cities are dealing with kind of headline issues were in the middle of an El Nino year. In the last few days, we've seen substantial evacuations of populations in cities in China, heat waves and heat domes across America and Europe. And part of the issue that we're grappling with is in the face of that, and you like, immediate danger and threat of loss of life and so on. How do you also then continue to embed some of longer term thinking about delivery against things like Paris Agreement targets and so on? Wayne Hubbard: you will know that our underpinning thesis is based on, I guess, those of fundamental pieces of research, one that you mentioned, which was the Arup C40 research, which looked at things like food and textiles and transport and construction. then an earlier... or maybe a piece of work that came out around the same time by Ellen MacArthur Foundation, carried out by consultants of material economics that looked at the contribution that circular economy can play to help to abate harder to abate emissions Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yes. Wayne Hubbard: in sectors like food and industry. And on the, I noticed that on the COP agenda and maybe always on COP agendas is greening industry. Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yes. Wayne Hubbard: So the global response to these harder to abate, dealing with these harder to abate emissions has been to help trading partners to decarbonize those industrial processes. But in the global north, as we deindustrialize and those industrial processes kind of flow to trading partners in the global south, then it seems to me there is a, I don't know, maybe it's unfair, that we've kind of left then. those global south trading partners to do the hard work on the harder to abate stuff without dealing with the system that creates those emissions in the first place. So are we missing a trick by not working harder on circular economy, certainly in the global north, and then working with our global south trading partners to understand what that means for economic fairness globally? Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yes, there's a number of different things to unpack there. mean, there are mechanisms that are embedded within some of the work that the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change and the COP process try to undertake to address those, including a whole set of agenda items on what's called technology transfer. And some of that... made some good advances but stalled a little. Obviously, I'm sure we might want to come back to finance and financing considerations in a short while, but a particular set of goals and ambitions around and what the Paris Agreement calls means of implementation in order to deliver on both adaptation and risk. ambition but also the emissions reductions goals over all of the Paris agreement. But equally, we've seen this tension, if you like, between that process being about the ongoing negotiation of the rule book to determine how countries should deliver against the commitments that they're making, but then a desire and know from the head of the UNFCCC from the UN Secretary General and from a number of negotiating parties for a greater focus on implementation. So COP 30 introduced this idea of an action agenda and Wayne Hubbard: Yes. Andy Deacon (GCoM): it's you know kind of outside of the negotiated space but is taking place you know regular gatherings around sectoral priorities some of these harder to abate. issues, the work of the high level champions team in support of that. And what's good is that there's the promise of some continuity on that action agenda. So was introduced in Brazil last year at COP30. We already know that COP31 will advance work on the action agenda. And promisingly, we understand that the Ethiopian presidency for COP32 have also committed to working to it. One thing that a number of organizations, ourselves included, was to ask for a bit of continuity to give this thing time to get into some very knotty issues that you've started to unpack a little there. Wayne, in the context of global negotiations and discuss it. discussions. This is not easy stuff talking about balance Wayne Hubbard: No. Andy Deacon (GCoM): between global Iain Gulland: Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): north and global south. But what we are seeing is commitment from a, you know, certainly a group of the world's governments to come back and continue addressing those. So you've got global initiatives like mission innovation that, know, specifically, it is seeking to address some of those issues and there are partners of that global mission innovation effort and now housed in its secretariat within the International Energy Agency. know, in things like the Mission Possible Partnership, I mentioned some of the work that the high level champions group is doing, specifically on things like, you know, cement, steel, Wayne Hubbard: Hmm. Andy Deacon (GCoM): some of the other kind of raw materials. sectors that will be Wayne Hubbard: Is that technology? Andy Deacon (GCoM): absolutely critical components. Well, there's everything from discussions about the role of alternative means of production of hydrogen to reducing input emissions into the production of steel to everything then regarding circularity in materials use in buildings. And we are seeing and some cities come forward and start to lead the way. We've seen cities like Oslo, for example, wanting to take forward and lead an advance work on clean construction and both embedded emissions but the circularity of those. And there's extensive European Horizon Europe funding. coming into projects on everything from building materials, passports, to reuse. And cities have an absolutely critical role to play in Iain Gulland: So good. Andy Deacon (GCoM): thinking about that and how they can use the powers and levers that they do have available to embed that stuff as we move forward. Iain Gulland: So I'm really keen to expand on that because to us, that's probably the crux to the opportunity. mean, both obviously myself and Wayne, we clearly, with the experience of London and myself in Scotland, I think we saw some of the developments in circular delivery. what's being done at a city level. mean, we can talk about Glasgow, know, two cities, northeast of Scotland. And obviously, as I said, Wayne and London. But I guess there's still been a real focus of circularity at national level, nation level. And obviously Andy Deacon (GCoM): Right. Iain Gulland: sector approaches for all the reasons you've just said, construction, know, vehicles, all of that sort of stuff. And that needs to happen as well. But I just, guess the role importance of cities is, I think just critical to the development of the circular economy. What more support could be given to cities because they kind of are the engine for this. Andy Deacon (GCoM): very good. Yeah, yeah. Iain Gulland: so guess I'm interested in from a COP perspective, what could we be seeing coming out of COP that could really tap into that engine and that ambition and whether it's tools, whether it's support, how could we really raise that opportunity that we think and that's not just the global north, as we talked about right at the beginning, the global south. Andy Deacon (GCoM): No, no, no, no. Iain Gulland: ambitions around this as well. Andy Deacon (GCoM): the more proof points we have about where good progress is, is being made. And the more there can be some of these linkages between the different levels of government, then, then the better. So, so two things I'll say one slightly more analytical and one slightly more implementation. focused. There is work led by UN Habitat looking at the urban content. of NDCs. So that was updated most recent set of results and released by UNHAPITAC, the executive director in Brazil in Belem at COP last year. And the NDCs are getting more urban. So we're into the third round, NDCs 3.0. And the urban content of those is much more significant across both emissions reduction and climate resilience and data. adaptation than it was in the previous round. And we've seen, you know, for example, Brazil talk about climate federalism in its NDC and that needs to introduce mechanisms and link the different levels of government together. The UK made some very practical references to multi-level governance initiatives within its NDC, including the Urban Transitions Mission, of which GECOM is a co-lead that fits into that mission innovation agenda globally. We have some work underway, for example, with the government of Morocco, the National Association of Regions, and the National Association of local governments to link those different levels together. But if you like, the analytical piece is there and you can now, know, there's research work, as I say, supported through UNHABITAT, that it has derived the conclusion that the NDCs are becoming more urban. So the diagnostic is there. in terms of mechanism to do something about it. Then at COP 28, then a number of sub-national partners came together with the UAE presidency of COP at the time, then to introduce this thing called the Coalition for High Ambition Multi-Level Partnerships, which sounds much better as CHAMP. Wayne Hubbard: Hehehehehe Andy Deacon (GCoM): and now with 77 nations and the EU that have endorsed that. which brings forward commitments to strengthen cooperation between national and sub-national governments, talks about consultation between those different levels on the NDCs, on the national adaptation plans, on the long-term low emission development strategies, LTLEDS in UN terminology, and on some of the biodiversity. planning and integration as well and looking into the financing to deliver on that and we and others have been involved in some work to draw some of the multilateral development banks and others into conversations about how to make this work at multiple levels and yes as you rightly say in the NEC is the know kind of stated national policy but if there are very clear urban kind of drivers to be able to deliver on the ambition that's being set out there, then we need some mechanisms to do that. And I won't be the first person that you've heard said for too long, cities were effectively kind of stuck out in the corridor while the national governments were negotiating. And CHAMP is now co-chaired by national government negotiating parties, currently co-chaired by Brazil and Germany, but also it has a sub-national advisory committee bringing together a number of cities who helping that group of endorsing countries to kind of identify and set policies. So there are some mechanisms they don't yet go far enough. One of the things that we and others are asking for is for a more formal mechanism in kind of UN speak to bring cities more fully into the dialogue that will be going on. So, you know, we're asking for some form of dialogue and mechanism between national governments and subnationals. At the last few COP's, there has been an urban ministerial and the expectation is that there will be one, a COP 31 as well. That provides one mechanism to do that and... Again, UN Habitat, particularly involved in convening that and drawing sub-national actors into a space. That tends to be ministers of housing and urban development. And what you sometimes wind up with is not a split, but if you like, siloed thinking between, if you like, that's the urban development people, not the climate people. And I mentioned earlier some of the attempts to mainstream circular economy and everything else into thinking about climate action and climate action planning. But again, we need to see a bit more cross talk between whether it's different ministries at national level and all departments within local government to really get some of the circular economy thinking mobilized. Wayne Hubbard: So this is, Andy, this is fascinating stuff. I there is another report actually called squaring the circle that was done by the World Bank. And it was looking at how circular economy can be mainstreamed across national governments because I'm sure as you've just articulated it in the climate space but certainly in the circular economy space you tend to get the environment department who get the circular economy brief not the economic development department or the treasury or housing or whatever and they're missing part Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yes, right, exactly. Wayne Hubbard: of well they're missing the whole story really and it gets stuck in about waste management rather than economic management and I think Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yeah, totally. Wayne Hubbard: that the circular economy is really climate, it's a climate adaptation strategy as much as a mitigation strategy, because it's all about resilience, affordability, jobs and growth, the things that, you know, climate is going to be a threat to our ability to thrive going forward. So my question to you is, there are many leaders out there in cities, but who do you think, where are we going to see leadership from cities and from mayors? in the circular economy space, do you think? Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yeah, very good. And we're very privileged to have former mayor of Paris, Hidalgo, join the global covenant recently as our global ambassador. There was some great work that Paris had done across multiple issues in the climate space. And we're delighted to be continuing to work with Anne. but if you like, she's there as a representative of the Alliance, can draw on that amazing history from Paris, but then looking to work with and activate some of that mayoral level from across our Alliance. But in the context of the Paris Agreement, that famous moment, where many, many local leaders convened on the steps of Paris City Hall. alongside the COP where the Paris Agreement itself was being agreed. Now just over 10 years on, there's a lot of organisations, including GCOM, that celebrating its 10 years because that really provide a massive injection of momentum. So being able to tap into some of that mass mobilisation and to be able to mobilise leadership like that, I think is important. I mentioned, for example, the city of Oslo, doing some great work on clean construction, some of that thinking about circularity, in particular when it comes to buildings and built environment. I think that will be tremendously important. We've been talking for a while. with a number of leaders across Sub-Saharan Africa, Covenant and Mayors, and Sub-Saharan Africa, and doing great work. I think at the moment, some of that very much focused on, if you like, dealing with more traditional waste and recycling problems, but that thinking is starting to become a little more circular than linear. And I think that there will be... and some great opportunities that emerge there. Just in terms of things like, you know, embedding some of the slightly more technological approaches and kind of smart city work, then Yokohama are one of our global board members, fantastic work happening in Japan. And we've also seen some great work in Canada. The mayor of Guelph in Canada, Cam Guthrie, was also one of our board members and used to host a major circular economy conference and alongside all of the work that they were doing around everything from zero interest loans for housing energy efficiency improvements and so on. I'm very much looking to do more than just host. but to kind of facilitate in particular some of that network building and Iain Gulland: Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): peer-to-peer exchange opportunities between cities on circularity and circular economy as well. Iain Gulland: So yeah, I'd kind of like to build on that. And maybe, I mean, maybe I'm jumping ahead. I so again, I was in, I was in Turkey recently, a zero waste event and I was actually chairing a session with mayors from various parts of the world and on their kind of zero waste journey, which was really, really impressive. And, you know, the work they were doing and, you know, the way they've developed. bespoke solutions, I for their particular circumstances, whether that's over in Asia or South America. And, you really inspiring. And I get that. And there's a bit of this around everybody looking at circularity and developing bespoke opportunities and supporting each other to do that. And as you've talked about, you know, people kind of, you know, we've done you talked about, kind of market. something about market making within the climate space. And I was very interested Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yes. Iain Gulland: because I was at COP26, in Glasgow. And there was a few discussions I was involved in with a few of the cities. I Glasgow facilitating some of these with other cities around. How could they come together to kind of almost reshape the market? you mentioned the global side, one of the things that gets talked about a lot of these events that I go to is obviously the plastics, the fact that a lot of these countries are Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yes. Iain Gulland: just swamped with single use plastics. But individually, they have no agency to shape that market. know, they're almost, know, the stuff just arrives, everything just arrives, so they've no way of trying to create a different, you know, market or different innovative product or bit of packaging that's going to reshape the challenge that they have around just, yeah, deluge of single-use plastic. So I'm not suggesting that's the only example, but thinking ahead, how could cities really start to think about themselves as that? real change makers as a collective. You talk about 14,000, 60 % of the global city population. I that's a massive influence. Rather than even individual countries, mean, obviously, China and America are huge countries. They probably can influence those things. But how could cities really start to see that we could shape? the circle economy markets, we could create more of an opportunity not just for finance, but for different business models. Andy Deacon (GCoM): some of my colleagues will laugh when they get to listen to this, you know, I'm talking about the power in numbers and, you know, in terms of the number numbers of cities, having multiple go to their national government to ask for a policy change, you know, is more powerful even if you've got one particularly significant mayor who's going, you know, being able to represent on behalf of the many is an important part of what we want to support. You've mentioned some of those alliances that are out there. Earlier this year, we've basically stepped up some of the work that we're looking to engage the global covenant in around that link to the private sector. So this isn't a public sector only. issue. We won't get there on financing, we won't get there in terms of achieving climate targets without the engagement of the private sector. So we're looking at how we use some mechanisms. So there's a city business climate alliance we recently put out an expression of interest for more GCOM cities to join and get on board with that. There's some new research that we published during London Climate Action Week, looking across a whole range and data from just over 150 cities worldwide on the market for green products and services and just how that might expand over the coming decade and even out towards the middle of the century. but it's kind of using again, some of the research like that, some of the underpinning evidence, but those networks and alliances to do it. And Wayne made the point earlier about some of the sectoral specificity on some of that and really where are the key pinch points and barriers? Where are the critical issues that are preventing some of this moving forward? If you like, we understand the nature of both the policy gap and we'll get an update next year, the next Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report specifically on cities. So a special report on climate change in cities coming from the IPCC during the course of 2027 and the opportunity to use that to reinvigorate around some of the key issues that get identified within that research after it's published and pick up and run with that is an enormous kind of opportunity and that's something that we won't have had for a very long Wayne Hubbard: I talk about cities being able to scale in three dimensions and that being the unique place in this multi-level governance that you talk about Andy, the unique place that cities have they can scale across and outwards through replication and those networks can scale across through replication. They can scale deep talking to communities at a sub-city level. Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: and make a big impact in those neighbourhoods. And they can scale up by influencing national government. But it seems to me there is potentially a missing piece here on circular economy. We were talking earlier about the global South being really where all of the global growth is gonna come from. And if that happens and the consumption patterns mirror the linear patterns that we've had in the global north, that's going to pile on even more pressure to global economy and geopolitical stress will be enormous and the environmental and social stress will be enormous and unbearable for the planet. So we need to kind of break that cycle. So is there, space for something else, something more radical? that can get cities kind of rapidly moving into sort of more circular ways of consuming. So as Ian said, more around access and performance rather than consuming new stuff. Andy Deacon (GCoM): I mean, there's a very interesting debate that spans multiple parts of the climate agenda about that consumption versus production debate and the implications of that. I mean, even in terms of, we referred a number of points to risk resilience and adaptation. We're seeing it even now this summer, supply chain interruption as a result of climate and weather risks and hazards. And I think we'll need some much more advanced thinking about the implications of that. And yes, effectively, it's not an endless resource base. We need to think about where primary resources are coming from. a number of the world's governments, parts of the private sector, you know, very interested in the context of a mass global electrification debate about access to mineral resources for everything from electric vehicles to transformers and substations and of course, silicon chips that are going into ever larger and more sophisticated data centers. And to think about some of that in circular terms would be amazing. Yes, we're aware of pilot projects that have taken end of life electric vehicle batteries and are using those to reinforce parts of the electricity grid. And yes, Australia and others doing some very innovative work in that regard. But we are starting to see conversations about some of those approaches and that technology transferring to other parts of the world. The nation of Ethiopia have been on an enormous electrification journey, both in terms of its overall grid energy supply, but increasingly then in terms of its vehicle fleet. It's a fantastic and amazing story and will be a wonderful one to get into in more detail for COP32 at the end of next year. But it's about... opportunities then for multiple countries' economies and for multiple cities to be able to learn from some of those approaches, but importantly to embed those secularity principles when designing the actions to get there as well. Wayne Hubbard: seems to me there's definitely a case for a circular economy playbook, innovation and implementation program. Andy Deacon (GCoM): I'm sure that's something that we'd love to come back to. The Global Covenant produced our new strategic plan for 2026 to 2028, aligning with a renewed commitment and renewed funding from both Bloomberg Philanthropies and the European Commission. Wayne Hubbard: Hmm. Andy Deacon (GCoM): which was a fantastic thing to achieve on our, you know, as part of our 10th birthday. But importantly, that plan recognises, you know, that we need to be addressing a number of these issues with that implementation lens in Wayne Hubbard: taking action to address urban consumption, I think is the words of C40 leadership standards. So every at least every C40 city should be doing something. And I guess they can all probably say, you know, demonstrate. like we need to go probably a little bit further than that. And it would be great if GCOM kind of had a set of ambitions around addressing urban consumption. I guess the problem is It's a tricky thing because, you know, it's not, we don't have equality, global, north, global, south. So for some people might hear that urban Andy Deacon (GCoM): Well, know. Wayne Hubbard: consumption. Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yeah, and I think, you know, we're very clearly moving away from just, you know, helping cities to establish an emissions inventory, even if it's only scope one and two and understanding their emissions and having a climate action plan. I think we're getting up towards like 8000 of the 14000 GCOM cities with an action plan and kind of just making sure that as many as possible can be supported. Wayne Hubbard: Right. Andy Deacon (GCoM): to be in a position to do that. But we're very wary of not adding to the administrative burden on already overstretched public officials. And Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): it's just being about counting, you know, what's going on or, you know, just about kind of measuring, you know, if you like, tonnage progress against pledge commitments. What you want to know is... how many solar panels are being installed, how many buses have been electrified, how many kilometres of cycle paths are being installed, how many homes have been renovated to high energy efficiency standards. And it's some of those outcome indicators. And I think being clear if there were some of those where some of the circularity principles could be embedded, I think would be an important part of a broader future debate. about how do we actually measure what's being implemented, Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): not only about, you know, I want to be the first one to commit to going climate Iain Gulland: Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): neutral or a 100 % emissions reduction base. Yes, Wayne Hubbard: I'm gonna... Andy Deacon (GCoM): we need the metrics, but I think we'll start to see, you know, Iain Gulland: Exactly, exactly. Andy Deacon (GCoM): new approaches to gathering some of that data and then having cities validate that rather than asking city officials. Wayne, you and I sat in City Hall in London many, many years ago looking at the London emissions and greenhouse Wayne Hubbard: Missed it. Andy Deacon (GCoM): gas inventory and looking at the waste sector's contribution to that. And it's important to have that base underpinning, but increasingly, citizens will demand, what politicians want to know is what are we doing that is actually delivering against the commitments that have been made? Wayne Hubbard: 100 % yeah 100%. I'll ask Ian to probably ask maybe the last question and then we'll draw to a close but I think in terms of consumption specifically I just want to make it clear that from my perspective there's a difference between reducing consumption and reducing consumption emissions and what we talk about is reducing consumption Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yes. Wayne Hubbard: emissions and I think it's really clear, really important to make that point because what we don't want is for people to feel they are poorer somehow. We want people to feel they are richer. we believe that a circular way of doing things actually is better than the linear alternative. Anyway, Ian. Iain Gulland: Yeah, no, just I mean, obviously, we're going to ask this of all our guests to kind of sum up and maybe there was a point that you were making about metrics and what we're actually measuring. I guess, you know, just just to finish, Andy, thank you again. So just thinking ahead to COP 31. So if you had your own magic wand in terms of what would Andy Deacon (GCoM): Hehehehe Iain Gulland: you be looking for in terms of the circular economy coming out of COP? What you know, what's your I don't know, top three things that you you'd thinking it would be great to Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yeah, perfect. Iain Gulland: see this coming out in terms of helping to accelerate the circular economy, particularly from a city's perspective, I guess. Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yeah, indeed. Yeah, I'll come at it specifically from the urban perspective. mean, you know, quite often you do the we'll go and ask city leaders what they need in order to implement all of the commitments that they've made. Of course, the first answer is funding to be able to Wayne Hubbard: funding. Andy Deacon (GCoM): do. There is, you know, a relatively new UNFCCC kind of finance work program that comes out of some of those commitments. on both looking at and reviewing but increasing climate finance more broadly that came out of COP29. In Azerbaijan, particular commitments to increasing resilience and adaptation finance. But I do think scaling up and improving the quality of finance for urban climate action is an important component. I mentioned earlier, if NDCs are becoming more urban, there should be more finance and funding that's flowing towards cities for them to be able to implement Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): those commitments that made. We're seeing overseas development aid budgets being enormously squeezed from a number of global north economies, but there are mandated climate funds that sit within the UN climate process. There's plenty of other bilateral capacity building programs that are in place. What we need to make sure is that there's a strong urban component to those and to see mechanisms to track and trace and make sure that those commitments and pledges that have been made and to move forward, it will be interesting. and more for COP32 next year. Ethiopia is the first of the least developed countries group ever to host a climate conference. the climate finance considerations, one imagines would be very likely to feature strongly there. So first wave of the magic wand. in particular to address that there are all sorts of issues about how cities get access to that funding and financing, whether they need national government and permission to do so. There's a lot of considerations about that kind of sovereign lending in particular through some of the MDB programs and where there's scope to go beyond that. We're starting to see one or two and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the Inter-American Development Bank and others. have work that's starting to look at direct lending to cities without requiring that national government underwriting. For example, opportunities to expand that would be hugely helpful across a number of sectors of the climate debate, including any work on circularity and circular economy. Wayne hinted earlier at a number of aspects that then go to my second wave of the magic wand. And there's a lot of work under the Just Transition Work Programme. And there's a huge amount of sub-national government experience on inclusive local transitions. And you mentioned everything from the engagement of citizens. I talked a bit about some of those links between public and private sector and basically turning communities, realities, needs and expectations in. You referred to some of the work that you've done. in that regard, there's much more that can come from the bottom up, from local to national government, in terms of integrating, just transition, kind of considerations and planning, and really some amazing work that's been done at local level. Always difficult to kind of capture all of that and roll it up. But the crucial level... kind of role of sub-national government and within that in the context of that multi-level governance piece that I mentioned is something that we should really look for a strong kind of outcome and that role for local governments in community engagement in the Just Transition Work Program outcomes that we expect to see coming out of COP this year. So that's the second one. And then the third and final one is just on that kind of multi-level and cooperative dialogue. And as I say, the process, the NDCs have increasing implications for urban leaders, but at the moment there's no kind of formal mechanism for them to have their voice expressed within the climate process. So we need the multi-level governance piece and more fully integrated and effectively. a more meaningful space within the international climate process, in particular with a focus on the, I think Simon Steele referred to it as the kind of decade of implementation. Wayne Hubbard: Yes. Iain Gulland: Yeah, I think that's really interesting. mean, that last point, I mean, I know you spoke about it earlier. think, yeah, probably I wasn't as aware of that almost Wayne Hubbard: Hmm. Iain Gulland: gap in terms of the city's having a voice. I mean, you know, can see what you've said and mean, clearly. agree the importance of cities at the table is particularly obviously from a circular economy point of view because of the reasons I said previously. But I think that other point you raised, I we haven't touched upon it, know we've kind run out of time. I mean you're right, mean all of us know that the importance of cities or certainly the local talking to communities or engaging with communities around behavioural change, do you want to call it, know, adopting can you say, it's so critical, I mean not just respect to national governments, that's not their forte, that has to be done at that local level and not just by municipalities but municipalities you know leaning into communities and people on the ground to make those you know get these messages across. mean and if we're serious Andy Deacon (GCoM): that. Iain Gulland: about any of this that is just so important you know. Andy Deacon (GCoM): No, absolutely. Yeah. Iain Gulland: lost over that sometimes, know, when we talk about the technical stuff a lot, we talk about, you know, infrastructure and finance and all of these really important things. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, but it's all about people. Iain Gulland: That communication role, you know, with a small C, a big C, whatever you want to call it, working with people, you know, yeah, it's just, it's fundamentally done at that local level. And again, the role of cities and all shapes and sizes is, and going back to my experience in Turkey, that really came across with, you know, the mayor's, I was speaking to that role, they really felt was their role amongst all the other things. That was the most important thing they brought to the table, that ability to communicate and Andy Deacon (GCoM): No and absolutely and and Iain Gulland: create the kind of Andy Deacon (GCoM): yeah. Iain Gulland: sense of place that people were actually coming together to do things that are more positive for not just for themselves but for their communities and the kind of wider cities and they were all different sizes and shapes so I think yeah we do overlook that sometimes. Andy Deacon (GCoM): No, I mean, you'll often hear people say, you know, the mayors are the kind of leaders closest to their populations. Definitely in terms of kind of crisis response and in emergencies, you know, it's kind of, here's the mayor appearing on the news, know, post disaster, you know, or whatever else. So mayors as kind of first responders as well. And building on that and leveraging some of that engagement will be absolutely important. But to make otherwise what can seem across the climate space, some very abstract policy ideas connect with the daily lives of individual people. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): Go on. Iain Gulland: No, I just think it's, I mean, just that whole, I just realized, know, because it's dawned on me, you you are, you're representing the mayor's, because in a way that's what we, we kind of dehumanize this sometimes, don't we? talk about, you know, it's like we talk about businesses, we all, know, my previous role, we all talk about businesses, but we dehumanize that slightly, because businesses are run by people, you know, people who are, who are embedded, Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Iain Gulland: usually embedded in their community, because they live in the community, they employ people in the community, but we kind of turn this into, businesses need to do something, in a way. of our discussion today has been talking about cities you know cities should be doing this or could cities do that but actually it is mayors it's mayors who are are the leaders exactly and you are the global governor of mayors that's your point yeah you've that's why we brought you on and they have just realized that that's why you were you were invited on because you are representative of mayors for people Wayne Hubbard: It's maz, isn't it? Yeah. Andy Deacon (GCoM): It's the global covenant of mayors, not the global covenant of… yeah, yeah. Then we'll go back and Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. As in, Isn't there? Andy Deacon (GCoM): start again. What's fascinating, and it's part of what gets me up in the morning, if you like, is the desire of some… some of the very strong and empowered local leaders that we're lucky enough to get to work with to want to make a difference in people's lives. And it was fantastic for us to have Mayor Alexander Senkovich, Mayor Mikhailov in Ukraine on stage during London Climate Action Week talking about some of the green reconstruction planning for Ukrainian cities. But even in the midst of an unprovoked conflict and in the situation in the middle of the war, they're still trying to deliver on their climate and energy ambitions and make sure that their populations are safe and protected. And there's a very active network of local leaders coming together across Ukraine. Our covenant in Mersyst has a huge number of... signatory cities, and they're still exchanging ideas and technical solutions on everything from keeping water supply going to mobile generation, so that if parts of the energy network are bombed, for example, you've got opportunities to move elsewhere. But when you hear and speak, what comes across very much is that kind of connection to the needs of the population and what he's hearing from individual citizens. And I mentioned earlier, you know, working in very small cities in Argentina, Despenaderos, amazing work for local women to engage in thinking about climate resilience in that case in particular, in the agriculture and horticulture sector locally, but understanding those needs and being able to articulate those during a mayoral mandate is an enormous ask, but the more that we can profile that. and that amazing connection, then the stronger position will be. Wayne Hubbard: Thanks Andy. I mean, that's quite an inspirational way to end the discussion. Isn't there a great book called, If Mayors Rule the World, If Mayors Rule the World, Dysfunctional Nations, Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: Rising Cities, Benjamin Barber. Yes, that's it. I mean, yeah, there you go. So I mean, a classic of the genre. Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yes, indeed, A classic of the genre. Wayne Hubbard: Brilliant. Thank you so much, Andy. We really appreciate it. We've taken a lot of your time. I know you're very busy. I didn't realize just how busy you were. until we talked about it for the last hour but you have got a lot on your plate so chapeau, chapeau to you and we... not enough hours in the day yeah Andy Deacon (GCoM): I won't claim I've got all 14,000 mayor's telephone numbers in my phone, engaging with our regional chapters is enormously important. But yeah, it's an amazing privilege and a wonderful job. And thank you, as you will have gathered, circular thinking there is more work for us to to do and you hinted that there is Iain Gulland: That's all we're here to do. We're here to help. Wayne Hubbard: waste Andy Deacon (GCoM): something there and maybe that is something that we come back to in due course. Iain Gulland: Okay, Andy, thank you. Wayne Hubbard: Thanks so much. A real education. Andy Deacon (GCoM): Yeah, thanks so much. Wayne: Okay, there we go, Instant reaction. Iain Gulland: What do we make of that? My answer, I mean, I think you said something towards the end. I mean, that was an education. I mean, Wayne: my goodness me. Iain Gulland: you've been probably more closer to some of this, but yeah, certainly from my point of view, was a bit of an education just about their organization and what they're about and that interaction, I guess, with cop processes and global network, know, working in the space. thought, I mean, I'm not. going to hide from my god that's quite complex and challenging but at the same time really reassuring that there is such a thing. Wayne: Well, I think, I think like aside from content of how we think cities are dealing with or not dealing with or engaging with circular economy. The fact is that Andy outlined this complicated COP structure, Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: which James talked about and then how cities are trying to interact. kept using this term multi-level, how cities are trying to be part of the negotiating and agreeing process of COP. So those two themes really sprung out. And then how GCOM itself, working with the other networks. So I think GCOM is a network of networks. As Andy said, he doesn't talk to all the cities. Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, no, I got that. Wayne: How it works with those networks, including C40, Eclay and others Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: to like get things done. It's Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: mind boggling, isn't it? Iain Gulland: Yeah, exactly. That's what I guess I've seen. You know, the fact it is complex and I guess if we'd thought about it, we'd have realized that, but to get an insight into how that is working. trying to push to some extent cities more into that kind of global dialogue, which I think is hugely positive. And the fact again, I'll bet the end, I mean, I know it's a bit jokingly, because it is Mayors. You he did bring a sense of human, the human touch to it. I think we sometimes forget about that So well done to Andy. But you're right. I mean, I guess we could reflect on the fact it did feel that they are just starting out on the circular economy. within that kind of wider climate agenda. fact, yeah, mean, a lot of his reference points were back to more generic climate action, not specifically around circular economy, but he acknowledged that. I think he acknowledged, you know, that, yeah, this is a journey and some cities are already on that thinking about circular economy and probably others are not specifically. and all of the other things in between in terms of geographical challenges. But then as we've said, that's the opportunity, isn't it? mean, you know, yeah, exactly, Wayne: That's the opportunity. Yeah. If it was easy, it would have been done. Right. So, you know, it is complicated. It's complicated in the interaction between, what we, what we call global north and global south, the imbalance of circular economy activity between global north and global south, the imbalance of trade flows, the imbalance of industrial and extraction versus, you know, consumption, what I would call consumption, not consumption emissions. Those imbalances are Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: big structural Iain Gulland: Babes. Yeah. Wayne: impediments to getting this done. But what we do know, and we talked about it, we touched it in the conversation is that if those emerging and developing economies in the global South develop in the same pattern as... has developed in the global in that extractive way, well, there's not enough capacity on the globe to absorb that. And so we will exceed Iain Gulland: Yeah, good job, Nasser. Wayne: global boundaries. Iain Gulland: Yeah, but that's the other thing. mean, that is for me the other opportunity. mean, going back to, you know, again, my experience in Turkey was people in the global South involved in the circular economy, you know, all of that, we're really looking to almost bypass or to jump ahead of where we are in the global North. isn't, you know, and again, that's a challenge because usually we all think, well, you know, I'm not saying we're trying to sell what we've done. But actually they're looking at it and saying, look, we don't want to just follow you. We actually want to jump ahead. We do want to become more circular for a of reasons. Some of what you've just said, some of it's about economics, some of it's about social, some it's lot of it's about justice. So there is that opportunity here. So we could really harness that and say, actually focus on the future and the global south. What does circularity look like? Could actually help us in. the global north as much as it helps them. And I think there's a real opportunity there. And I just, yeah, I get a sense that global, you know, network of mayors does actually understand that rather than it's all about just selling a new, an old way of life to the rest of the world. Yeah, I thought that was really, really encouraging. So that's the other opportunity we should be Wayne: Andy acknowledged that more action needs to be taken and not enough has been taken. And I guess in our conversations we've had over the years, pondering the lack of circular economy networks, no disrespect to Circular Citizen Regions Initiative in the EU, the Circular Citizens Declaration and all the other networks and work that people do. But there isn't an equivalent. working on circular economy, self-evidently, there isn't an equivalent of GECOM and there isn't an equivalent of C40. These are big, powerful, mayoral networks that have buy-in Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: for climate action. And the fact is that when all too often when you talk about circular economy action, the conversation defaults to we need to do something about recycling and landfill. Iain Gulland: Yeah. And then that again, for me, that's the opportunity because we it's on the COP agenda. So there's an opportunity to get the circular economy Wayne: Well... Iain Gulland: embedded. I know we could debate this. But these Wayne: But it's on the cover, you yourself are evidently right. Iain Gulland: mayors are thinking about climate because either way, because exactly what you say, we don't have we don't have the equivalent of of that organisation for circular economy. And probably both of us would wish for that. It'd be great if we had mayoral leadership on the circular economy like Wayne: Yes. Iain Gulland: you've got on that. So therefore the option is do we create that? Do we have to go out and try and create that? Or do we harness into something that already exists as we've just said, feels like a very positive network that's actually got all of the attributes that we talk about in terms of size, scale and the diversity clearly. So there's an opportunity. There's an opportunity coming out of court because there's never been an agenda before. So they've never really had to think about the circular economy. in that space. So I think that's another opportunity. think those are the mechanisms we need to maximise that, you know, what's happening in those spaces. But you're right, it just Wayne: Yeah, no, I agree. Iain Gulland: won't happen without us, you know, not us, you know, but people within the circular economy space recognising that this is a vehicle that we could, you know, to some extent get help and support to kind of develop circular economy thinking and approaches in the same way that they're doing around climate. So I guess that's... Wayne: I'm out. Iain Gulland: that still feels an opportunity for me. Wayne: Now, I agree. I guess my, I was being a bit negative, but the way it's framed on the agenda is around, I think, zero waste, reducing waste growth and methane and reducing methane emissions, all of which is important and essential. And circular economy principles are explicitly mentioned. I think our job as a... as an industry, whatever the circular economy industry or whatever we're called, circular economists, our job is to kind of put forward, I think, a reasonably consistent and compelling argument. So maybe that's what we should work on. Iain Gulland: Yeah, probably back to my point, I think I raised before about the Trojan horse. It's almost like Wayne: the Iain Gulland: it's a way of getting it in there. Yeah, right. It might be people thinking this is about waste management, but actually, I've worked, I'm not saying smart enough, but that's the opportunity is to see this as an opportunity to get inside and then talk more broadly around circular economy rather than just. say, okay, it's all gonna be about waste management infrastructure and Wayne: Hmm. Iain Gulland: landfall diversion, stuff like that, which absolutely, we do need to talk about, particularly at a global level. I'm not, that's as important, particularly around reducing methane, et cetera. there's a lot, I keep saying these are opportunities, but they're not gonna happen without clear dialogue, clear articulation, engagement. They're not just, there's an opportunity. They're talking about the circular economy, a corp, that's brilliant, job done. There's still a lot to be done in the space. But yeah, I think it's definitely a shift in the right direction. Wayne: It is. And I think Andy painted a he painted Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: a great picture of, you know, just how complex it is to be a, you know, in charge of a city. Just think about that, about, Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wayne: you know, what cities are going through right now in terms of heat, in the UK drought, you know, across your wildfires. These are the issues that mayors have to deal with. So this Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: is why the argument has to be really compelling to kind of cut through all of that and make it something which mayors want to take on board. Iain Gulland: But then he gave that example of then about the mayor of a Ukrainian city, still Wayne: Yeah, really inspiring, wasn't it? Iain Gulland: really inspiring. So that's about leadership. Wayne: it is, it's about, yeah, and I think we have to generate a compelling narrative. I think the arguments are there. I just think that there aren't enough people who kind of are really good at articulating, you know, how circular economy can help with, as we talked in the interview, you know, with resilience and growth and social justice and all of the social co-benefits of the circular economy and affordability and all of this kind of stuff. So. I've just kind of ruled myself out of being a communicator when I said, and all this kind of stuff. But anyway, you know what I'm saying? think the rationale is there. We just need to marshal our arguments and communicate it more effectively. Iain Gulland: the other thing I was going to add, mean, that whole thing about cities coming together and Wayne: Mmm. Iain Gulland: I guess that's the role that Andy and his team have is how do they facilitate some of these more broader macro challenges. I guess it would be good to see even the cities thinking about what are the top three things they really want to see changing? Because you mentioned construction, we touched Wayne: Hmm. Iain Gulland: upon that. We'll probably talk about that in quite a few of these podcast episodes, the importance of construction and the impact of construction practice as much as the opportunities. But I just wonder whether that's the city's collectively, whether that's a global level or a regional level to say, right, we really need to solve sustainable construction. We really need to solve. plastics, really need to, and really sort of energy, because again, that interface with industry or with business, it can be two ways. They could be saying, look, you need to come up with a new material, or you need to come up with a new way of selling X product. mean, you mentioned textiles, clothing, all that sort Wayne: Yeah. Iain Gulland: of And actually, not in a, we're going to ban this, but we need you over the next 10, or five, 10 years to come up with a different practice Wayne: Yeah. Iain Gulland: that's going to really help us reduce our... consumption emissions, not our consumption as you said, it's actually reducing our consumption emissions. I've actually been much more vocal about that and having those types of, know, what you would call them, packs or otherwise or agreements to move those forward. Because I think that would be really game changing for me if, you know, we all kind of knew there was three big things that, you know, we were working on from a city's point of view. And they were really driving that rather than Wayne: Yeah. Iain Gulland: a national point of view. Because I think that was always going to be challenged. different nations to come specifically around some of those key topics. Wayne: I think there is a role here for some kind of playbook, whether it's a physical thing or a Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: digital thing or To remove the barriers to entry for Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, I'll make it easy. Wayne: circular economy and just get people started on this road without having to think about... all of the kind of data gathering to do a, know, a circular economy route map or whatever, but just get on and do these, three or four things to your point and just, you know, say in these sectors here, just pull down some solutions here and then adopt them in your locality. There's some work to be done, isn't there? Some work to be done. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: So... It's quite interesting. I hope that people who are listening to this have enjoyed the sort of fairly Adam Buxton-esque rambling style of this conversation, but I think it's been really worthwhile to just get a sense of the complexity. We will be in cop, and I, joined by our our mystery guest? who will help us co-host the part. we'll be, the plan is to try and kind of do a mini summary of the day and see if we can interview people from the event. and we will be there taking some of the learning that we've generated during this podcast series. So if you're there, do reach out and let us know. If you fancy talking to us, we'll be endeavouring to influence whoever we can. to promote the circular economy. So yeah, do reach out. Iain Gulland: Yes, and if you've got running an event or you're looking for some speakers to come and join you or some commentators or facilitators, we're happy to help out.