Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Dr. Ruben Puentedura on SAMR, AI, and Transformative Learning

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Dr. Ruben Puentedura on SAMR, AI, and Transformative Learning · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

• 0:00
  Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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  podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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  Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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  as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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  technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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  conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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  we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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  and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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  and let's integrate this. Hello and welcome to
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  the Integrate This EdTech podcast. I'm David
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  Berner, joined as always by my co -host Jeremy
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  Mikla. And today we are extremely excited to
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  have with us Ruben Puentadora, who is the owner
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  of Hipposys, the site, and then also very well
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  known for creating the SAMR model in the education
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  field, which many educators and particularly
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  tech integrationists and ed tech enthusiasts
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  are familiar with that model and very excited
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  to have you with us here today, Ruben. Just a
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  little foreshadowing too, you'll also be joining
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  us for our AIDS symposium in May along with Becky
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  Keene, which will be great. And we'll talk a
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  little bit more about that later. But why don't
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  we kick things off with just the origin story
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  of Ruben and all the years that you spent in
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  education and research and all those type of
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  things and how you got to where you're at today.
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  Sure. So my own background comes from the sciences.
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  I got my doctorate in chemistry. more accurately
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  in theoretical computational chemistry, which
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  is a great way to get in trouble in no fewer
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  than four areas. You can get in trouble in math,
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  you can get in trouble in chemistry, you can
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  get in trouble in physics, and you can get in
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  trouble in computer science. So absolutely wonderful
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  place for somebody who wants to have a bit of
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  fun in lots of different areas. So anyhow, so
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  that's where my background comes from. So I did
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  my research. in that area but at the same time
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  i was getting my doctorate that was also very
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  interested in education and specifically in terms
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  of science education figuring out how we could
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  use technology to teach better and i'll go back
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  to that later you know maybe when we talk about
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  sammer because that's actually the genesis of
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  the research that led up to the sammer model
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  so I continued on my work and I kept both tracks
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  in parallel. So the track in chemistry and the
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  track in education research. And then one thing
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  that happened is I spent 13 years working at
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  Bennington College, teaching there as a member
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  of the faculty, but I also developed a new media
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  center as part of the new media center consortium,
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  which was at that moment in time in the early
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  90s, a pioneering group. And one of the things
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  about the New Media Center work is that it allowed
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  me to diversify my approach to how we use technology
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  in education. It allowed me to further research
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  how to use technology in education. It allowed
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  me to dig deeper into how you could think of
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  different areas, whether it was video or interactive
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  tools or different ways to have students and
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  faculty create. media as a way of scaffolding
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  learning, as a way of creating new learning tools,
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  opportunities, etc. During that period, I developed
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  the SAMR, the SAMR model, and I decided eventually
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  that what I really needed to do was to go on
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  my own. So I set up Hypassus as a consulting
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  company that would allow me to both take what
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  I had already researched with SAMR, develop it
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  further, but also take it to a broader stage.
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  In other words, teaching in college is absolutely
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  wonderful. Love doing it. But at the same time,
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  I wanted to get into K -12 education. I wanted
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  to look at how learning organizations in business
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  could use the technology, the model. And from
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  there on, then went to... further develop it
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  to the point where it is at today, where I work
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  across the entire K20 range, where I work with
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  academic institutions, I work with businesses,
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  I work with governments, and where I can see
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  not just how to use technology as, okay, here's
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  a nice little trinket, but actually how to make
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  technology make a difference. in learning and
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  that's really what's at the heart of SAMR. So
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  that's in a way the short story of how I come
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  to be where I am today. And I am, you know, to
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  be really honest with you, it's been a wonderful
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  journey. I mean, I've had the opportunity to
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  see projects, work with projects that are quite
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  unique along this journey and I'm very happy
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  I decided to undertake it. So that's the short.
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  origin story if you will. All right yeah and
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  can you talk a little bit to you just about how
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  your your experiences in those different areas
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  and the degrees that you've achieved in chemistry
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  and math and the teaching in higher ed how that
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  kind of shapes your thinking for designing learning
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  today as you work with teachers and just just
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  in education and you mentioned k -12 how your
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  experiences in those areas impact your work today?
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  Sure. Part of it is, of course, as I say, I mean,
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  you know, not coming from just the perspective
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  of research, but also communicating that research
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  and communicating how to learn in math, in the
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  sciences. That's been a crucial aspect to me
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  because one of the things for me has always been,
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  can I think about how to do this in a different
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  way that makes it more widely available to people
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  that makes them more deeply available to people.
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  I don't very much like, to be honest with you,
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  the approach to science education that makes
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  it almost trivial pursuit. Here's some fun facts.
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  Well, that's nice. But to me, it's a question
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  of how do you teach people how to use science
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  and the thinking that goes into science. More
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  deeply so all of that work the research work
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  and the education work has informed how i look
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  at technology more broadly in other words just
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  like i like to communicate how to use the technology.
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  Do say have people actually sink their teeth
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  more deeply and actually use the math they might
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  be learning as opposed to just hear about it
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  and say well that's nice what's the point of
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  this i tend to take that approach across the
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  board so for instance when i look at history.
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  I think about saying, well, okay, what are the
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  questions that one might ask as a historian that
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  reflect what a practicing historian would do?
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  Just like when I teach in the sciences, it reflects
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  what I do as a practicing scientist. And how
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  do I reach out to people and have them incorporate
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  more of that thinking into their work? And also
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  the other aspect that's been crucial to me is
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  in looking at what happens in the sciences, in
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  looking at what happens in math education, visualization.
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  is a key component, right? When we look at abstract
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  concepts, and you're dealing with all sorts of
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  abstract concepts, you're working on quantum
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  mechanics. And one of the things about quantum
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  mechanics is every little bit you can use to
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  visualize something, to look at it differently,
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  to have a different way to shape how you think
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  about it, gets you that much closer to understanding
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  what's going on. But that also holds across the
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  board. So I try to look at forms of visualization.
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  I look at ways of constructing narratives. In
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  other words, I don't like to just say, well,
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  here's the science is just the equations. There's
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  a story. Why am I thinking about this? How do
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  I come to think about this? I'll have people
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  over generations, over centuries, depending on
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  the field science, of course, have come to think
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  about it. There's a story associated with it.
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  Again, I try to bring that aspect of the story
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  to other aspects of learning and education as
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  well. And I don't view it as something that just
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  happens in higher ed. It's something that I've
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  worked with kindergarten students, in fact, even
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  pre -K, and say, okay, I'm not going to say,
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  so kids, let's talk today about quantum mechanics
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  and how you use it, but to think about, so how
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  do you bring aspects of the world in talking,
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  in working with the kids that reflect how I might
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  work or bring aspects of the world to an older
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  audience. And again, the experience is wonderful.
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  It's one of the most gratifying work groups,
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  in fact, to work with. They latch on immediately
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  to the idea of telling stories about the world
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  and thinking about how you can tell stories about
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  the world. And when I work in business, it's
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  a similar question. I don't view it as just,
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  well, this is the technology and we're using
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  it for technical aspects of, well, you have a
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  business or you work in government. How does
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  what you're doing change over time? How do you
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  learn to do what you're doing better, differently,
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  in new ways? How does that evolve? Again, much
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  of how I think about learning that comes from
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  my own background, my own experience, goes into
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  how I work with businesses, with government,
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  with not -for -profits, etc. So do you see it
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  as kind of like your impetus for beginning a
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  basis is really kind of this idea that We're
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  focusing just on the trivial, to steal one of
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  your words, or just learning at the most basic
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  levels. And really what we need to do is to combine
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  along with the content area, knowledge and skills
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  and mindsets. combine that with the pedagogy
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  of where our students are at, but really to focus
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  on the why of things and kind of melding these
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  different parts together. You've done a beautiful
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  job of summarizing it. So yes, that's exactly
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  right. In other words, from my perspective, that's
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  where we want to go. Now, don't get me wrong.
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  I don't want to trivialize and say, well, look,
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  there is this technical skill that you might
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  need to do something or this particular aspect.
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  that might not be as deep in the explanatory
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  sense. That's also necessary and fine. But at
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  the end of the day, when we're thinking about
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  how to use technology, what we can change using
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  technology, that why aspect. That thinking of
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  why do you want to learn this? Why do our students
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  want to learn this? How are they going to use
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  it? Why would they use it? And why will what
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  they're doing with it change? over time, because
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  that's what I think I'm keenly aware of. The
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  questions I might ask today, for instance, are
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  very different than the ones I asked a decade
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  ago, or I asked back in the 90s when I was starting
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  with all of this research. And I want to make
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  sure that when we think about learning, we give
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  our students the tools for them to keep on evolving
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  that learning, so they don't just learn whatever
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  happens to be on the table at that moment, but
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  also learn how they themselves can take the tools
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  and evolve further. they're learning and how
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  they use the tools to support that learning.
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  So you've been at this for a while, you know,
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  dating back into the early nineties, as you said,
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  you know, are, are there, are there things that
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  you think schools have improved upon and education
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  or instruction, if you want to focus on that,
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  um, since that time period or other, or schools
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  and teachers still making the same mistakes just
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  with, just with different tools in front of them
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  than what they had before. Oh, I think that we
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  have seen some evolution. I'm not going to say
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  it's been uniform. I'm not going to say it's
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  been on every front, but I think schools and
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  teachers and students have learned. and picked
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  up some new skills, etc. Is it the entire range
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  I wish were on the table? No. But again, that's
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  not my call. And there's 20 ,000 different things
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  calling teachers attention, students attention,
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  and so on. But teachers and students have learned.
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  And for instance, an example to me is what happened
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  with that pandemic, right? It was everything
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  that was done in education with technology during
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  the pandemic perfect, etc. No. Did we get some
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  good use out of it? Yes. Did we learn some things?
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  Do I see schools having learned some things?
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  Yes. Do I see that learning always being incorporated
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  moving forward? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
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  So I would have to describe it as there's been
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  some learning. I would like to see more, of course.
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  I would like to see deeper use. And I think there
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  are real opportunities that are available now
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  that perhaps were not available, you know, 10,
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  20 years ago. But I don't want to fall into the
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  trap of saying, oh no, there's been no changes.
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  There have been changes. There has been an evolution
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  in terms of thinking about these things. Some
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  things I don't see, for instance, as many what
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  I would call truly superficial uses of the technology
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  as I might have seen once upon a time. I see
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  a more reflective use of the technology. So I
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  think there has been some improvement and some
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  change moving forward. And do you think is there
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  a way to kind of put into measurable terms what
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  some of this transformation in education has
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  looked like or should look like? Yes, I think
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  that some of those transformations again have
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  to go back. I do keep coming back to the idea
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  of more learner autonomy, more opportunities
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  for learners to shape their learning domain,
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  how they use the tools and how teachers themselves
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  use the tools. And in terms of what we see in
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  some areas, in fact, we are seeing some of this.
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  Again, not uniformly, not perfectly, but we do
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  see some gains in this direction. Where I see,
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  for instance, students saying that they are using
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  the tools. We see it now with large language
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  models, for instance. And some students are actually
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  making some very interesting use of the tools
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  in terms of helping them use them, not just to...
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  tell them the same things they've been told.
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  Let's say, well, I have difficulty in this area.
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  Can I use the tool to help me scaffold my learning,
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  to help me ground it, et cetera. Once again,
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  are all of these uses perfect, great, without
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  problems? No, of course not. But I do see some
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  opportunities being used that might not have
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  been used at moments in the past. I do see more
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  students, more teachers using the tools of digital
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  storytelling. to create materials, to scaffold
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  materials, et cetera, for learning. Do I wish
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  I saw more? Of course. One always wants to see
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  more, right? But I also think that we see things
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  now, for instance, I started using Adobe Premiere
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  way back when in the day in version 1 .0 when
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  it came with the classroom in a box of books,
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  et cetera, and a big stack of books and so on.
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  At that point, it was, oh my God, it's incredibly
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  complex to have a machine that can run this and
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  so on. Today, you take your average smartphone
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  and you can produce video content that would
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  put to shame anything like that. And the good
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  news is I do see some teachers and some students
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  making use of that opportunity. So, the tools
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  have gotten better, but I'm also seeing better
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  taking advantage of the opportunities afforded
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  by those tools. And could we talk a little bit
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  to it about the concept of taking theory and
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  putting it into practice as far as professional
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  development goes? And kind of want to look at
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  this in three parts, I guess. One of them is
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  the PD that teachers get can sometimes be under
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  underwhelming or it's like, you know, there's
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  there's something to be desired. What are common
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  PD mistakes that you see when a district is rolling
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  out new technologies for their teachers to utilize
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  as part of their pedagogical practice? Maybe
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  just common mistakes first, sorry. Yeah, no,
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  no, that's a great question. I think one of the
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  most common mistakes, and again I understand
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  why it happens, but nonetheless is a twofold
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  one. One part of it is throw 20 things at the
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  teachers in parallel and not make any effort
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  to integrate them. So you say, here's your new
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  literacy mandate and here are the materials related
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  to the literacy mandate. Here's your new technology
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  mandate and here are the materials and never
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  the twain shall meet. And that to me is, frankly,
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  you're overloading teacher's plates and not saying,
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  hold on, let's see how these two things can fit
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  together. Maybe we leave a little bit off here,
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  a little bit off there and merge the two things.
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  So that's. Half of the big mistakes I see when
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  you just overwhelm teachers and then nothing
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  gets really integrated effectively into the teaching
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  and the learning. The other half I see is unfortunately
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  too much of a focus on and today we did professional
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  development. So the professional development
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  is focused on one day. Maybe if you're lucky
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  two days, maybe even a week, depends on the district,
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  depends on the school, et cetera. But the truth
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  of the matter is effective professional learning.
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  And this is something that is very important
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  to think of not just what the teacher is doing
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  in the classroom, but how this transforms the
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  organization as a whole really takes time, really
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  takes longitudinal development. And that's the
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  other place where I see, frankly, sometimes in
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  the states of, well, we gave you a PD session
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  on Monday. Weren't you using it? expertly by
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  the end of next week. And the answer is because
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  it takes time. You're better off introducing
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  fewer things on that Monday, but then as the
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  semester goes on, et cetera, taking advantage
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  of the opportunity to provide support, integration,
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  et cetera. So more of a longitudinal approach
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  and an integrative approach across the different
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  areas you're bringing in. So those are the two
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  mistakes I would say I see most commonly. Yeah,
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  and you started to kind of address what I was
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  going to get at with the follow up questions,
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  which was just what does the effective practice
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  look like, which is going to be something that
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  is longitudinal. As you mentioned, it's something
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  that is sustainable over time. Is there have
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  you seen any districts that have been able to
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  implement that effectively? Because I know with.
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  Jeremy and I we we both do professional development
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  in our roles and one of the things that we often
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  run into and this is really something that schools
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  can't totally control because there are there
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  are so many trainings that are expected of schools
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  to provide their teachers a lot of band -aided
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  trainings that they have to go through and very
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  few opportunities to get all those things done.
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  Have you seen or what would be the best approaches
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  that you've seen to allow for continuous professional
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  development of a concept for teachers? Is it
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  putting things in where they have you know 30
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  minutes here or 30 minutes there? We've seen
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  like micro credentialing before is something
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  that has been championed, what have you seen
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  that's been successful or has worked? Yeah, that's
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  a great question. There are several components
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  I would mention. You've already mentioned one,
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  which is the 30 minutes here, 30 minutes later.
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  So try to not just make it the monolithic one
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  day or even multiple days, but actually distribute
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  it throughout the year. So that's an important
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  component to think about how, as I say, you integrate
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  these things, but also how you distribute these
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  things over time. So that's one. and provide,
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  of course, support because that's one of the
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  things that you don't want to always feel bad
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  for a teacher that just got this, you know, fire
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  hose delivery of PV on one day and then nobody
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  is available to them to support when they say,
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  wait, I thought I could do X, but I can't. Who
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  do I speak to? And the answer is, oh, we're sorry.
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  You know, the person just, the person you could
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  have who could have kept you. Yeah. That was
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  on that day and then another round. So thinking
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  about how you provide that ongoing support. But
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  there are two more aspects that I would highlight
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  that I've seen be successful. The first one is
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  have communities of practice. And I want to use
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  the term community of practice very intentionally.
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  That doesn't just mean, say, have the, okay,
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  we're going to have coffee hour and everybody
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  says how much fun they had that week with the
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  technology and that's it. In a community of practice,
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  if you read Levene Wenger and look carefully
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  at what's going on, the community of practice
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  is structured, yes, around conversations, but
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  also around the tokens of the practice being
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  exchanged. So I'm not just telling you and that's
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  it. It's like, well, I've done this. What have
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  you done? Let us share trade, incorporate elements
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  of each other's practice into what we do. So
• 21:06
  constructing communities of practice, it takes
• 21:09
  some gardening for lack of a better term. That's
• 21:12
  a term I always loved when wikis were first invented
• 21:16
  and people spoke of wiki gardeners to keep wikis
• 21:19
  healthy and going and so on. Communities of practice
• 21:21
  also need gardeners. So it isn't, unless you're
• 21:25
  very, very, very lucky and you have a group of
• 21:27
  teachers that already have been immersed in communities
• 21:30
  of practice all their lives, you may need some
• 21:32
  support, you may need some development, but very
• 21:34
  few things are as effective at maintaining ongoing
• 21:39
  incorporation of new technologies, ideas, pedagogies,
• 21:43
  whatever it happens to be, as well as more effective,
• 21:46
  deeper correction to errors, better ideas being
• 21:54
  added to the list as communities of practice.
• 21:56
  So that's one of the elements I would add. And
• 21:58
  the second element that I strongly, strongly
• 22:00
  encourage schools to do, wherever possible, communities
• 22:05
  of teachers to do, is action research. Why? because
• 22:09
  action research puts the teachers and I like
• 22:11
  to encourage also the students if possible and
• 22:14
  also members of staff, administrators, librarians,
• 22:19
  etc. in the picture as actual researchers. This
• 22:22
  isn't, you know, a researcher comes in from the
• 22:24
  university and does a research project on the
• 22:27
  school. These are the teachers themselves researching
• 22:31
  their practice in the context of what they're
• 22:33
  doing to figure out what works, what doesn't
• 22:35
  work. And the type of experiments that say, hey,
• 22:38
  how do we make this better? And this is the other
• 22:40
  component that I find can really both amplify
• 22:43
  and improve the results of professional development,
• 22:46
  because it isn't just a static practice. It isn't
• 22:49
  just, I got this, I incorporate into my practice
• 22:51
  and that's it. It's also well, but I also have
• 22:54
  a researcher's relationship to this, because
• 22:57
  I want to keep improving, I want to get more
• 22:59
  mileage, and maybe I'll figure out in my experience
• 23:01
  with schools and teachers in fact, they do figure
• 23:04
  out things that the original people who came
• 23:06
  in to do the research never did. One of my colleagues
• 23:09
  I've worked with many times over the years, Dr.
• 23:11
  Damian Bibel, and I have had the experience over
• 23:15
  and over and over again of going into a school,
• 23:19
  providing professional development in actual
• 23:20
  research itself, and then coming back a year
• 23:23
  later and say, Whoa, You guys figure out all
• 23:25
  these things. We never knew them. Thank you.
• 23:27
  This is amazing. Let's share it. Let's get it
• 23:29
  out into the world. I wish there were, in fact,
• 23:32
  more opportunities for teachers to share a lot
• 23:35
  of this, and this were more encouraged. But that's
• 23:36
  the other thing. When people ask me, how do you
• 23:39
  make professional development more effective?
• 23:41
  To have at least a core of teachers, if you can
• 23:44
  make it the entire group of teachers, so much
• 23:46
  the better. And I have seen that done effectively
• 23:49
  at many schools. Take on the role of excellent
• 23:52
  researchers. I'll add, by the way, that this
• 23:54
  is also true, stepping outside of K12 or K20
• 23:57
  for a minute. It's also true in business, government,
• 24:01
  501c3s, et cetera. You look at actual learning
• 24:05
  in business, for instance, and part of this aspect
• 24:09
  is at the heart of it. So you can refine it further,
• 24:13
  develop it further with some of the tools. that
• 24:15
  you might use a formalized action research approach,
• 24:19
  but it's already isn't just limited to say K
• 24:21
  -12 education. I think it was in about 2011 or
• 24:27
  so, 2011, 2012, and I was a classroom social
• 24:32
  studies teacher and our principal had made the
• 24:36
  decision that we were going to be going one -to
• 24:38
  -one iPads with our students the following year.
• 24:41
  And he came to me and said, Jeremy, I want you
• 24:44
  to go to this technology and education conference.
• 24:48
  And it was a really nice conference they used
• 24:51
  to have here in Minnesota called the TIEs conference.
• 24:54
  And it was a two or three day thing. And I remember
• 24:57
  going to that event. And that's when I heard
• 25:02
  my first session about the SAMR model. And I
• 25:06
  remember coming back just so excited because
• 25:10
  I thought it had laid everything out so clearly
• 25:13
  and how I was going to come back and lead the
• 25:16
  charge with the iPads for the teachers and then
• 25:18
  eventually into the students. And, you know,
• 25:21
  learning was just going to become transformative
• 25:24
  overnight. You know, very idealistic of me. I
• 25:29
  know, but. It brings us to, I think this, and
• 25:33
  we teased it, I know you teased it a little bit
• 25:35
  earlier, but I want to bring us to the SAMR model,
• 25:38
  right? Because it did come grow out of what you
• 25:43
  noticed. taking place with technology and education,
• 25:47
  especially in how we can make our instructional
• 25:51
  practice and our learning experiences we designed
• 25:54
  for students to become that much more transformative,
• 25:57
  which is, I think, ultimately the goal. So, you
• 25:59
  know, like I'm putting myself here. a little
• 26:03
  bit out there is here's here's where I did things
• 26:06
  wrong. But now, you know, like, I know that still
• 26:09
  happens. And I know that attitude is still out
• 26:11
  there from people. So how can we? Yes, I want
• 26:14
  I would love an overview in your words about
• 26:17
  the SAMR model. But then how can we take that
• 26:20
  into, you know, 2026? Sure, absolutely. So, again,
• 26:27
  the SAMR model was developed, as you said, because
• 26:29
  it was a question of, you know, A lot of people
• 26:32
  were saying when I started this go to goes back
• 26:34
  to the 80s and seeing a couple of new tools had
• 26:38
  just come out for using chemistry, ChemDraw and
• 26:41
  Chem3D. The Rubenstein brothers had developed
• 26:44
  those two tools and they were amazing because
• 26:46
  they were a waste on a Mac. to actually visualize
• 26:50
  molecules, quickly do a 2D representation. So
• 26:54
  visualize and rotate in 3D and start trying things.
• 26:57
  In ways that before that you would have had to
• 26:59
  spend over $100 ,000 on a workstation. The workstation
• 27:02
  wasn't anywhere near as nice as the software
• 27:06
  was. So it was an amazing tool. But I saw some
• 27:09
  people using it and getting great results in
• 27:11
  learning and other people not getting great results.
• 27:13
  It wasn't just a question of is the tool good
• 27:15
  or bad. is because of how it was used. And that's
• 27:17
  where the research that eventually led to SAMR
• 27:20
  started to originate or grew out of. And SAMR
• 27:24
  basically says, look, it's not just a question
• 27:26
  of whether the technology is good or bad. Obviously,
• 27:28
  no, I use bad technology. But it's a question
• 27:30
  of what you want to do with the technology. And
• 27:33
  if you're just going to say, well, whatever I
• 27:35
  was doing before, I'm going to replace it using
• 27:38
  the tool that I have now with a new technology,
• 27:42
  that can be fine. it can be good it can be for
• 27:45
  instance if you are reading books on paper now
• 27:47
  you can read them on an e -reader it might be
• 27:50
  more convenient etc but doesn't if you're not
• 27:53
  doing anything else with the book that you were
• 27:55
  doing before well it's fine but it doesn't really
• 27:59
  change learning outcome that's the substitution
• 28:01
  And augmentation, you'll say, well, hold on.
• 28:04
  New technologies tend to have features that will
• 28:05
  make an older task easier to accomplish, better
• 28:09
  to accomplish, et cetera. So take the example
• 28:12
  of the technology I was talking about just a
• 28:14
  minute ago with Chem 3D. Chem 3D allows you to
• 28:17
  visualize molecules in 3D. But if you've ever
• 28:19
  built, particularly with the models who were
• 28:21
  available in the 80s for building physical molecules,
• 28:26
  there are a lot of things that were difficult
• 28:28
  to do. bend things, hope the whole thing won't
• 28:31
  break apart on you. You actually had people who
• 28:33
  specialized in using wireframes to build exquisite
• 28:37
  models and so on and all of that suddenly allowed
• 28:39
  you to say well no I can start asking what if
• 28:41
  questions now that I wouldn't do with the physical
• 28:44
  model because I've run out of atoms or it would
• 28:47
  be too difficult to say what if I flex it this
• 28:50
  much because it'll break etc and you could start
• 28:52
  asking questions about docking replacement and
• 28:54
  so on so these were enhancements to what you
• 28:57
  could do it still wasn't changing that much how
• 28:59
  you were thinking about molecules but it was
• 29:02
  changing how you could operate on a visualization
• 29:05
  on an object represented by a molecule. And that's
• 29:07
  the augmentation level. And here's where we start
• 29:10
  to see small but measurable improvements in student
• 29:13
  outcomes. The real payoff comes into the next
• 29:18
  two levels, which are modification and redefinition,
• 29:20
  which I call sometimes the transformation levels.
• 29:23
  And modification is that to say, look, the new
• 29:24
  technology has some affordances, some things
• 29:27
  it makes possible. that were not possible before.
• 29:30
  So I'll keep the task at heart the same, but
• 29:34
  also change some aspects rather dramatically.
• 29:36
  Let's switch again a different domain. So suppose
• 29:39
  you're talking about the area of providing student
• 29:41
  feedback, right? For things that might be say
• 29:44
  writing or something like that. And one of the
• 29:46
  things about providing student feedback is in
• 29:49
  traditional methods, you tend to have a lot of
• 29:52
  one -to -one. Feedback. Me, the teacher, provides
• 29:56
  feedback to you, the student. You, the student,
• 29:58
  write for me, the teacher. The draw with that
• 30:01
  is that's not a very good representation of what
• 30:03
  you're doing most of the time with writing or
• 30:06
  with thinking or sharing it not only with a broader
• 30:08
  audience, a real audience that isn't just the
• 30:11
  teacher for a grade. And in addition to that,
• 30:14
  the type of feedback you respond to is much more
• 30:16
  complex than the feedback you'll typically get
• 30:19
  at a writing project. But if you have something
• 30:21
  like blogs, particularly if you can set up shared
• 30:24
  blogging groups, then you can have students respond
• 30:27
  to each other for a type of social writing and
• 30:29
  social response that is difficult or impossible
• 30:32
  to do without the technology. Yes, you could
• 30:35
  have students pass around papers, but the paper
• 30:37
  itself is not a medium for ongoing conversation.
• 30:41
  It becomes cumbersome. There are ways of doing
• 30:44
  it, but it's cumbersome at best. not possible
• 30:47
  at worst. And certainly the sort of thing that
• 30:49
  frankly sometimes people say, well, look, an
• 30:51
  artist calling you did this, yes, great, you're,
• 30:53
  you're Yado and you can afford to pay all these
• 30:55
  poets to live in the community or my classroom,
• 30:58
  well, sure, to live in the community for X amount
• 31:01
  of time. That's great. But the average K -12
• 31:03
  classroom doesn't look very much like Yado. So
• 31:08
  blogs allow you to do this, and that's a significant
• 31:10
  modification. You're still providing feedback,
• 31:13
  but now you're talking about forms of writing,
• 31:16
  shapes of writing and feedback, responses to
• 31:18
  audiences that can stretch wider or narrower
• 31:22
  if you bring in people from outside the classroom
• 31:24
  in, or narrow it down to a focus group. You can
• 31:27
  even bring in with a different type of tools
• 31:30
  that allow for using the space of the text itself
• 31:33
  as a space for students to say, well, look, let
• 31:36
  me comment on the text within the text and have
• 31:39
  a dialogue within the text that allow you for
• 31:43
  a significant modification. And that's where
• 31:44
  you start to see significant changes in student
• 31:49
  outcomes. If you measure in the research I've
• 31:51
  done, it's roughly double in terms of effect
• 31:54
  size what you get. at the augmentation level.
• 31:57
  So that's where you see a modification, then
• 31:59
  a redefinition, which is when you start creating
• 32:01
  new opportunities, new ways of thinking about
• 32:06
  tools, of thinking about the subject, of thinking
• 32:08
  about what you do to learn that you couldn't
• 32:11
  have done before. That's where you get the maximum
• 32:13
  payoff. That's where you double again the impact
• 32:16
  upon learning outcomes. You start to say, well,
• 32:18
  you know, before I used to ask the students to
• 32:20
  do this type of project, because that's all I
• 32:24
  could do. or just take an exam because that's
• 32:27
  all I could do. But now I can have with the tools,
• 32:30
  have the students undertake communicating their
• 32:33
  learning to a wider audience, say via YouTube
• 32:37
  or TikTok or what have you, in ways they couldn't
• 32:42
  have before where they did themselves become
• 32:44
  the teachers. I've seen some amazing work, amazing
• 32:47
  work done by grade school students using the
• 32:50
  tools where you say, okay, you're the fourth
• 32:52
  grader. You're learning something about chemistry
• 32:55
  in your fourth grade class. Now teach it to the
• 32:57
  third graders. That's your project. That's what
• 33:00
  you want to do. You know what? The students really
• 33:02
  get into it. They really say, hey, this matters.
• 33:05
  This isn't just for a grade. Do I get an A, B,
• 33:07
  or C, or whatever it is? It's a question of,
• 33:10
  I want these kids to learn. And that's what happens
• 33:11
  every definition, when the technology allows
• 33:14
  you to do something you couldn't do before. And
• 33:17
  that's where you see the greatest impact. So
• 33:18
  that's the SAMRMOM. It says, don't just focus
• 33:21
  on You know, how glossy the tool is, or how shiny
• 33:26
  it is, or how many different little doohickeys
• 33:30
  the video tool has. That's not the key thing.
• 33:33
  The key thing is, are you going to use it to
• 33:35
  just replace a tool with no shift, replace it
• 33:39
  but enhance, rephrase it, but in addition to
• 33:42
  that make significant changes, or are you creating
• 33:44
  something altogether new? And that's the four
• 33:48
  levels of SAMR. So that would be the nutshell
• 33:52
  summary, if you will, of it. And one of the remarkable
• 33:56
  things to me is how, you know, it's been very
• 34:00
  gratifying to share with people how I've been
• 34:02
  able to see that change, how people approach
• 34:05
  things and frankly have good results. So it's
• 34:10
  been one of the pleasures of what I do. Well,
• 34:13
  we're very thankful that you have done all of
• 34:16
  that and and we're we're able to kind of benefit
• 34:18
  from that as we as we think about how we use
• 34:21
  technology to improve instruction and student
• 34:24
  learning and and I'm just I I I loved. Becky's
• 34:28
  book, you know, and bringing that is that I know
• 34:32
  you wrote the forward for and how she takes the
• 34:35
  SAMR model and applies it to the technology of
• 34:39
  2026, you know, with with generative AI. And
• 34:43
  I'm thinking of, you know, AI is not just a tool,
• 34:47
  but a teammate. or a thought partner, a co -teacher,
• 34:53
  whatever other term that you want to give to
• 34:55
  it, but it being more than a tool, but you can
• 34:57
  still apply, I think, the concepts of this model.
• 35:00
  And when you align it with what your learning
• 35:02
  objective is, how many different ways you could
• 35:06
  go with this and allow it for it to personalize
• 35:10
  the learning of different students, allow it
• 35:12
  to... you know, become more engaging, maybe find
• 35:17
  a way to make it more visual or more of a storytelling
• 35:20
  experience where the student can actually demonstrate
• 35:24
  their learning several different ways. Do you
• 35:28
  see this as maybe a time where, not that the
• 35:31
  SAMR model had disappeared, but is it experiencing
• 35:35
  a renaissance, a rebirth? Do you think maybe
• 35:38
  because of Becky's book or because it just fits
• 35:41
  so nicely, at least in my opinion, with this
• 35:45
  emerging, I don't just want to call it a tool,
• 35:49
  but a technology, right? Yeah. No, Becky's book
• 35:52
  is fabulous. I think she did a great job and
• 35:54
  I'm very, very happy that she wrote it because
• 35:57
  not only did it do a great job of framing a GenAI
• 36:01
  in the context of SAMR. I think it also did a
• 36:04
  great job in terms of making it clear to people
• 36:06
  why this matters. And to your point, yes, I have
• 36:09
  seen SAMR, not just, I'm not sure if I would
• 36:12
  call it so much a rebirth as a deeper thinking.
• 36:16
  In other words, there were certain approaches
• 36:18
  to tools that have become well -established.
• 36:20
  Oh, okay, you're doing this. Therefore, if you
• 36:22
  use the SAMR model, this is a use that will generally
• 36:25
  be at this level. Okay. That's fine. And that's
• 36:29
  exactly what you expect. In other words, after
• 36:30
  a while, people figure out a few key tricks and
• 36:32
  there's no sense in reinventing the wheel each
• 36:35
  time. But what you're seeing with 10AI say, hmm,
• 36:38
  this is bringing a whole new set of considerations
• 36:41
  to a table. Some very good, some very challenging.
• 36:43
  So let's be very clear. It's not just in, it's
• 36:46
  all great and no matter what you do, it's all
• 36:48
  going to work well because not everything works
• 36:51
  well and you need to think carefully. And SAMR
• 36:53
  then provides a tool for thinking carefully about
• 36:56
  this. In particular, one of the things I've been
• 36:58
  talking about is that Samer points to, when you're
• 37:02
  using GenAI, the idea that you want to be a little
• 37:05
  careful of what happens at substitution. Because
• 37:07
  if you're not careful at substitution, you run
• 37:09
  the risk of getting into what I am not the only
• 37:12
  person who people have also been calling it an
• 37:14
  erosion of something. In other words, because
• 37:17
  the AI makes whatever process it was that you're
• 37:20
  using it at the substitution level so easy, you
• 37:24
  run the risk of saying, well, Some of the value
• 37:26
  learning wise of this has vanished or is vanishing.
• 37:30
  That's why I call it erosive. It tends not to
• 37:32
  vanish all of a sudden or all right away, but
• 37:35
  you tend to erode away some of the value for
• 37:37
  it. It's kind of, well, this might be a perfectly
• 37:39
  good first step, but it's less likely that it's
• 37:44
  going to be somewhere you're willing to want
• 37:45
  to stick around in. in terms of how you use the
• 37:48
  technology, it's more likely that you're going
• 37:50
  to want to push forward into the upper levels
• 37:52
  of SAMR. So that's the other aspect. It helps
• 37:55
  scaffold that need for a somewhat more, if you
• 38:00
  will, demanding or more accelerated move forward
• 38:04
  through the levels of SAMR in terms of how you
• 38:06
  incorporate the technology. There's a opportunity
• 38:13
  there to to reorient to the the focus of of the
• 38:17
  SAMR model of making You are doing learning through
• 38:24
  that through that model because I think that
• 38:28
  We we can lose sight of that and kind of going
• 38:30
  back to our training piece if you could do a
• 38:32
  training on it with teachers for an hour or so,
• 38:35
  but that doesn't mean that it's going to be implemented
• 38:38
  and to me the One of the benefits of having this
• 38:42
  new technology of AI come about is that you can
• 38:46
  You can start to look at SAMR in regard to that
• 38:49
  new technology and say let's let's reorient ourselves
• 38:54
  here again and and think about this from a the
• 38:59
  right lens if you were if you were working with
• 39:02
  a school district today and Thinking about AI
• 39:05
  and thinking about the SAMR model What would
• 39:08
  be the first thing that you would do with them
• 39:10
  if you were to start fresh with the district
• 39:13
  to approach all of that? Basically, for me, it
• 39:18
  would be very important to provide exemplars
• 39:22
  that illustrate how to think about gen AI in
• 39:26
  the context of different aspects of SAMR, because
• 39:29
  some of them are not obvious. In other words,
• 39:32
  some of what I've seen people do, and again,
• 39:34
  I don't want to say this is bad, it's just simply
• 39:36
  not going to take you to the upper levels of
• 39:39
  SAMR. Some of what I see is more in the variants
• 39:42
  on drilling or variants on, well, you know, have
• 39:48
  as many problem sets as you want or as many expressions.
• 39:50
  And that has a value. Believe me, there's nothing
• 39:53
  wrong with that. But I talk about, for instance,
• 39:55
  how do you get into different ways of thinking
• 39:58
  about history? using GEN .AI and using SAMR to
• 40:03
  scaffold. How you might say, well, how do we
• 40:07
  go to aspects of thinking about history that
• 40:11
  students might never have gotten to otherwise?
• 40:14
  It talk about things such as, for instance, I
• 40:16
  get asked a lot, well, with GEN .AI, do we need
• 40:19
  to talk about coding with students anymore? Or
• 40:23
  we just have GEN .AI do everything via vibe coding
• 40:26
  as well? I say, no, actually, we do need to talk.
• 40:28
  about coding but it looks an awful lot more like
• 40:32
  what I might have done in a course on algorithms
• 40:34
  which would normally have been a second year
• 40:36
  course at a college level or an upper high school
• 40:39
  course in a high school and now I'm saying no
• 40:42
  you need to bring some of this thinking back
• 40:45
  because a lot of formal aspects are being handled
• 40:48
  yes by gen .ai but now you need more understanding
• 40:52
  of what's going on to make the best possible
• 40:55
  use of the tool, and then show some of the things
• 40:57
  that you could never have coded before, or that
• 41:01
  students, I should say, could never have coded
• 41:03
  before in any reasonable way, that now, if they
• 41:06
  have that understanding of the bigger picture,
• 41:10
  the deeper picture of coding with the GenAI tool,
• 41:14
  they get into. I've seen some incredible work
• 41:16
  by students who were literally at the very beginning
• 41:19
  level of any sort of computer science, and within
• 41:22
  one day be able to say, hey, here's a game they've
• 41:29
  coded that works in VR quite reasonably using
• 41:32
  Unity, etc. etc. So, wow, that's impressive.
• 41:36
  The point is not that they can code there. The
• 41:39
  point is that they can have the idea for a game
• 41:42
  work together on designing it, and then, using
• 41:45
  the technology, make it a reality. So this is
• 41:49
  an important aspect. Do not just say, well, here's
• 41:51
  SAMR, here's GEN .AI, and here's how they two
• 41:54
  relate. Have a nice day. It's important to provide
• 41:56
  those exemplars because they are significantly
• 41:59
  different, perhaps. That's what we've done in
• 42:01
  the past. So Ruben, let's look at your work with
• 42:10
  your consulting that you have done across the
• 42:12
  K20 education space. And when you've done that,
• 42:17
  and I kind of want to take a little bit from
• 42:19
  what I felt like you were saying there a little
• 42:22
  bit when you were approaching these. problems
• 42:26
  that we're facing, and you know, whether coding
• 42:28
  should be taught, I still hear should cursive
• 42:32
  be taught, you know, should keyboarding be taught,
• 42:35
  all of these, these different things. And to
• 42:37
  me, it's, yeah, I think they there's a place
• 42:40
  for all of them, because I think they help train
• 42:43
  us in different ways of thinking. And I think
• 42:47
  bringing the arts into that into that space as
• 42:51
  well. It is incredibly important, I think, when
• 42:56
  we talk about generative AI and doing some of
• 42:59
  that. I think of it, you call that erosion. I
• 43:03
  think of it as atrophy or even cognitive offloading,
• 43:07
  but it separates us a little bit from our human
• 43:11
  sides. And so I still think that there's a place
• 43:14
  to bring in some of those artistic measures.
• 43:18
  And what should we be focusing on to try to make
• 43:22
  sure we're not losing that sense of humanity
• 43:24
  in this AI age? I think you've brought out a
• 43:28
  very important aspect, which is how do we create?
• 43:31
  What do we make? You know, the more we can encourage
• 43:33
  students, teachers, everybody, you know, librarians,
• 43:37
  I'm sorry, I should mention, I always mention
• 43:39
  librarians because librarians get forgotten and
• 43:41
  librarians are incredible people to have next
• 43:45
  to you. I mean, I owe a lot of my education.
• 43:47
  People ask me, who do you owe learning experiences
• 43:50
  to? Librarians that said, you know what? I know
• 43:53
  this book is not in the kids section when I was
• 43:55
  a kid, but Hey, you seem to be interested in
• 43:58
  this here. Don't tell anybody I gave this to
• 44:00
  you, but here you go. Um, I have a huge debt
• 44:04
  there and they're incredible resources. We're
• 44:07
  moving forward to it. So to me, they were an
• 44:08
  important group to bring into a picture, but
• 44:10
  one of the things is how do we create all of
• 44:12
  us? What is it that it means to create that?
• 44:15
  An example, I play the sax. I'm a terrible sax
• 44:20
  player. Okay. I will never be on stage anywhere
• 44:24
  that anybody, nobody should be subjected to my
• 44:27
  sax playing in jail. But what happens? I'm now
• 44:31
  getting back into my music more. Because with
• 44:35
  Gen .ai, there are ideas that if I could get
• 44:38
  some of my friends to tolerate my honking and
• 44:40
  squawking for five minutes, we could maybe jam.
• 44:43
  And I still do that. But I also have a partner.
• 44:46
  that helps me explore this. So it's not that
• 44:49
  I'm no longer playing the sax because, oh, well,
• 44:51
  I'll just go to Suno or any other Gen .E .I.
• 44:54
  and have them make it. No, no, no. That gives
• 44:57
  me a background that I can play against and say,
• 44:59
  huh, let me try this or let me try that. And
• 45:02
  there's pleasure, there's joy in making something
• 45:04
  like this. And I'm getting into other aspects
• 45:08
  like this in terms of what can I do that is a
• 45:12
  compliment to... What is going on with the gen
• 45:16
  AI that I can do better more often so on and
• 45:19
  that's what we want to encourage or look for
• 45:21
  to your question This is for we want to be focusing
• 45:25
  not just on exams or quizzes or standard assessments
• 45:29
  We'll be thinking about as we develop more uses
• 45:32
  of this. How do we encourage uses that encourage
• 45:35
  teachers students everybody to create? make something
• 45:38
  new, make something that matters to you. And
• 45:41
  this is, you know, one of those things that to
• 45:42
  me, it becomes incredibly rich. Another example,
• 45:45
  for instance, we always do with the math, it's
• 45:48
  kind of, it does some people, well, what is the
• 45:51
  math? good for, what's it going to use? Okay,
• 45:53
  we can talk about the type of patterns that become
• 45:57
  more salient and easier for students to learn
• 46:01
  and to make use of in the context of Gen. AI.
• 46:04
  But at the end of the day, also think about how
• 46:06
  they might use it, but not in the type of questions
• 46:08
  of, Farmer Jones has 10 cows and we need to build
• 46:11
  a fence for the 10 cows. I'm sorry. Even in farming
• 46:15
  country, and I've done farming country, nobody.
• 46:17
  cares about that question. The answer is, you
• 46:19
  go to a local fencing store, and there's a standard
• 46:21
  measure, and this is how you get the fence, okay?
• 46:24
  Nobody does the calculation of that. But are
• 46:27
  there things, patterns, things that, you know,
• 46:30
  might have to do with something that matters
• 46:32
  to them? For one, it might be something that
• 46:34
  relates to the arts. For somebody else, it might
• 46:35
  be something that relates to the environment.
• 46:37
  For third, it might be the beauty of the math
• 46:38
  itself. And the answer is, the GenAI can help
• 46:42
  students, teachers, explore those things. create
• 46:45
  with them. And we will focus on that. It's not
• 46:47
  the first thing sometimes that you can get to,
• 46:50
  but it's something that should be in the background
• 46:52
  or as a component of this moving forward. And
• 46:56
  I think, again, there are incredible opportunities.
• 46:59
  What I find I can do, just in terms of, for instance,
• 47:02
  I work quite a bit. in urban environments and
• 47:05
  how cities change over time with some cases,
• 47:09
  with migration of populations, in other cases
• 47:11
  with climate change, in other cases for other
• 47:14
  reasons, et cetera. And one of the things I can
• 47:16
  do now is start to say, well, I've always worked
• 47:20
  with visualizations, creating images of how I
• 47:23
  see my change, but now within AI I can do not
• 47:25
  one, not two, but 20, 200. create entire boards,
• 47:30
  create animations. I love the work of Gibson,
• 47:34
  Neuromancer, et cetera. I find a lot of his work
• 47:37
  very intriguing in terms of how to think about
• 47:41
  how things might change, his ideas about spaces,
• 47:47
  urban spaces, future spaces, and so on. And I've
• 47:50
  been able to now... take ideas from what's the
• 47:54
  treasure of books, it's called the bridge trilogy
• 47:56
  and say, let me render this. Let me actually,
• 47:58
  quote unquote, film a little portion of this
• 48:01
  again, not because I'm going to release this
• 48:03
  for the next Academy Awards or anything like
• 48:04
  that, but because it's allowing me to explore
• 48:07
  creatively something that would have been, did
• 48:10
  I explore it before? Yes. But was it more challenging,
• 48:12
  more limited, more difficult? Also, yes. So that's
• 48:16
  the type of opportunities that I think we can
• 48:18
  explore, look for. and we should, in fact, I
• 48:21
  think, explore and look for. Great and AI it
• 48:25
  sounds like can be a partner in helping to bring
• 48:27
  that about it doesn't have to be the barrier
• 48:30
  that you know we're all going to turn into robots
• 48:32
  and serve our robot overlords it's that we can
• 48:35
  actually take gains from the ways we are able
• 48:38
  to look at things that patterns were able to
• 48:40
  now recognize that we didn't before and we can
• 48:44
  use that to elevate the types of things that
• 48:46
  we can create and ways we can demonstrate how
• 48:49
  we can think critically. Exactly right. And again,
• 48:53
  to me, one of the important things is let's be
• 48:55
  clear. Okay. It is possible to use the AI for,
• 48:59
  you know, just do the boring stuff and don't
• 49:05
  create anything new. And suddenly you have neither
• 49:08
  the job with the boring stuff nor a job with
• 49:11
  anything new. And that's not good, but it doesn't
• 49:14
  have to be that way. But we have to take an active
• 49:16
  role in making it not be that way. So yeah. And
• 49:23
  Ruben, could you talk a little bit too just about
• 49:26
  the importance of providing students opportunities
• 49:30
  to show their learning through digital storytelling
• 49:34
  and visual composition? Yeah, absolutely. So
• 49:39
  an aspect, of course, relates to these creative
• 49:41
  aspects, right? They encourage students to realize
• 49:44
  that communication can take many forms, including
• 49:46
  storytelling, including artistic forms and so
• 49:50
  on. And that's an important one in and of itself.
• 49:53
  But there's also the aspect of digital storytelling
• 49:55
  is a tool for integrating all of these amazing
• 49:58
  tools that we have today and using them to tell
• 50:02
  stories. And I always emphasize that when we
• 50:04
  tell a story, we're making meaning for somebody
• 50:06
  else. By making meaning for somebody else, we
• 50:08
  make meaning for ourselves. So if you take for
• 50:11
  a second a step to the side and say, well, you
• 50:13
  think of the Vygotsky and social learning process.
• 50:16
  Remember that there's always a moment at which
• 50:17
  the student, the learner has to integrate all
• 50:20
  of the knowledge from that more knowledgeable
• 50:23
  other, the zone of proximal development into
• 50:25
  something that forms part of their zone of current
• 50:27
  development. Well, digital storytelling is an
• 50:30
  excellent way for that integration. to take place.
• 50:34
  So even as they're sharing that knowledge with
• 50:35
  others, even as they're demonstrating that knowledge
• 50:38
  and forms that allow me to do both formative
• 50:41
  and summative assessment in terms of what they've
• 50:44
  created, it also helps them integrate that knowledge.
• 50:48
  So that's an important aspect. And similarly,
• 50:50
  things like in terms of visualization and the
• 50:53
  arts, there are multiple paths to this. And I
• 50:56
  keep emphasizing, you know, it's not just one
• 50:59
  way of looking at the subject, but the fact that
• 51:03
  visualizations, whether it's a more formal, technical
• 51:05
  one or an artistic one, are also ways of coming
• 51:09
  to grips with an idea, you know, thinking about
• 51:12
  how things might change, etc. Think about, for
• 51:16
  instance, all the painters that kept coming back
• 51:18
  to a particular area, for instance, the impressionist
• 51:20
  painting, and repaint the same cathedral or the
• 51:23
  same field over time as a way of understanding,
• 51:25
  well, what's the change? that's going on here.
• 51:29
  It's not just rhymes or whatever the cathedral
• 51:31
  is. It's a question of how do you think about
• 51:33
  change in this regard? And it's a valuable tool.
• 51:37
  So whether you do it with visual arts or with
• 51:39
  audio, as I was mentioning, music can also be
• 51:42
  a domain for exploration. Visualization isn't...
• 51:45
  We use visualization typically as a look at your
• 51:48
  eyes, but it can take other aspects that, you
• 51:51
  know, involve... a sound with some of the haptic
• 51:56
  feedback now available in devices that can involve
• 51:58
  tactile aspects. It can involve the navigation
• 52:01
  of spaces and VR, et cetera. So that's where,
• 52:05
  once again, these are opportunities for deeper
• 52:08
  exploration, for integration of knowledge, and
• 52:11
  for getting at knowledge in ways that frankly
• 52:12
  wouldn't have happened otherwise. Since we're
• 52:15
  early on, have you had any personal worries about,
• 52:19
  with the advent of AI, the loss of the ability
• 52:25
  to tell stories or have narratives or be creative
• 52:28
  at all? Does that concern you? The concern is
• 52:32
  that we won't use it well. In other words, I
• 52:35
  don't think there's anything. Again, it's much
• 52:37
  as with jobs. If we don't exercise the capacity,
• 52:41
  yes, then there is a worry. Absolutely. So to
• 52:43
  me, it's a question of saying, if we have this
• 52:46
  tool, let's make sure we use it in a context
• 52:48
  that continues to exercise. those capacities.
• 52:52
  You know, and I'm seeing, for instance, just
• 52:53
  to give you one more example, I do a lot of work,
• 52:55
  of course, on learning in the context of games
• 53:00
  and gaming. And I also do a lot of gaming that
• 53:01
  has nothing to do with formal learning. Okay,
• 53:04
  I will admit that a lot of my endless playing
• 53:08
  of Europa Universalis has very little to do with
• 53:11
  teaching history and a lot to do with saying,
• 53:14
  now, what other twists can I throw into the game
• 53:16
  and have some fun with? But with Gaming, for
• 53:21
  instance, one of the things that becomes part
• 53:25
  of the picture if you're doing role -playing
• 53:27
  gaming is how you're telling a story, okay? Anybody
• 53:29
  who's been a dungeon master or a game narrator
• 53:33
  for any type of role -playing game knows that
• 53:37
  storytelling is frankly what most of the people
• 53:39
  there at the table are for. You know, most people
• 53:41
  don't care that much as to how many points you
• 53:44
  roll the dice, but it's kind of, okay, so what
• 53:46
  happened next, etc. But I'm seeing some very
• 53:49
  interesting gaming taking place where the AI
• 53:51
  is a partner in the storytelling, and it's throwing
• 53:54
  in unexpected elements. So you still have a narrator,
• 53:57
  you still have somebody constructing the story,
• 53:59
  but there are elements that are kind of, huh,
• 54:01
  I wasn't expecting that, okay, so what do I do
• 54:03
  next? So again, it doesn't take over, it doesn't
• 54:06
  replace, it complements and allows for new opportunities
• 54:10
  you couldn't have. But it doesn't happen just
• 54:13
  because you have to explicitly think about How
• 54:16
  do I keep my storytelling agency in the context
• 54:19
  of this? And what do I do new or different in
• 54:23
  terms of that storytelling agency? So you've
• 54:32
  shared a little bit about your gaming experience
• 54:34
  and let's bring it to gaming and education here
• 54:37
  a little bit. What is a pragmatic approach to
• 54:40
  gaming and education look like to you? That's
• 54:43
  a great question because gaming and education
• 54:46
  is one of the places that can unfortunately be
• 54:49
  great, but the amount of time it can consume
• 54:52
  is also not trivial. I've seen some very good
• 54:55
  projects where the idea was great, but the cost
• 54:59
  -to -benefit ratio was not so great. So for me,
• 55:03
  gaming is you want to look at the places where
• 55:05
  you say, what can the student get out of a gaming
• 55:08
  experience that would be unlikely for them to
• 55:10
  get otherwise? Let me give you a concrete example.
• 55:13
  In teaching history, I like to use reacting to
• 55:17
  the past, or TTP, as a matrix for thinking about
• 55:21
  how students learn history by engaging with the
• 55:26
  players of that history in a way they wouldn't
• 55:27
  otherwise. It goes beyond traditional role playing,
• 55:30
  because it's not just, okay, now put on a funny
• 55:32
  hat and stick your hand... in your coat and say
• 55:35
  you're Napoleon, okay, or whatever. That's not
• 55:38
  it. It's more a question of saying, for instance,
• 55:40
  you're looking at, say, an episode of their,
• 55:43
  you know, revolutionary war and say, well, why
• 55:46
  might some people have been loyalists and some
• 55:48
  people not? What was their motivation? What would
• 55:52
  have happened? What type of societal context
• 55:55
  would have happened? And it's not just, you know,
• 55:59
  talk about it and, you know, It plays there on
• 56:02
  a superficial level. A real set of rounds of
• 56:07
  every acting to the past game really engages,
• 56:10
  in my experience, students and teachers, frankly,
• 56:14
  to a degree that very few other things do, and
• 56:16
  really gets them to delve deeply into aspects
• 56:18
  of the history in ways they wouldn't have otherwise.
• 56:21
  So that's the key aspect there. It's aspects
• 56:23
  they wouldn't have gotten otherwise. I wouldn't
• 56:25
  necessarily play a game just to get at something
• 56:27
  they could have gotten just by. reading a good
• 56:30
  history book or what have you because the payoff
• 56:32
  might not be worth it. But in this case, it is
• 56:35
  worth the investment. And here's where the AI
• 56:37
  becomes really important. One of the things I've
• 56:39
  demoed quite a bit recently is how to construct
• 56:42
  reacting to the past games that are much easier
• 56:45
  to set up and run and faster and more effective
• 56:48
  to set up and run using large language models
• 56:51
  as part of the generating structure and part
• 56:54
  of the assessment or framing structure. than
• 56:58
  you could have with the books. I mean, the books
• 56:59
  put out by the RTDB team are amazing. Mark Kahn's
• 57:05
  work is amazing. But let's face it, there's only
• 57:08
  a few dozen of those, even if you include the
• 57:10
  prototype projects that are in the database at
• 57:14
  Barnard. And to be able to say, well, this is
• 57:17
  a topic that matters to my students now in this
• 57:21
  context is a perfect example of where you want
• 57:24
  to use gaming. A type of gaming, for instance,
• 57:27
  that I'm not that fond of, to be perfectly honest
• 57:29
  with you, is Kahoot. It's okay to use it a little
• 57:32
  bit, okay? It's okay, so you have some concepts,
• 57:38
  you need to do a little bit of drilling. Kahoot
• 57:40
  can soften that a bit, but at the end of the
• 57:43
  day, let's face it, it's a multiple choice test
• 57:45
  disguised as a quizzing game, right? And I still
• 57:49
  wish I knew which teacher, several teachers have
• 57:52
  told me the expression, I still know which teacher
• 57:54
  or which way, but I love the expression, Kahooted
• 57:56
  to death. Because that's, I have actually seen
• 57:59
  this, unfortunately, where people say, oh, we
• 58:01
  need to play a game, let's do a round of Kahoot
• 58:03
  and the students are like, oh no, please, no,
• 58:04
  not a round of Kahoot. You know, it's not, you
• 58:08
  know. And some of the more interesting uses are
• 58:11
  when you say to students, well, can you use this
• 58:12
  to construct the idea of a quiz? because what
• 58:16
  would be interesting to ask of somebody else
• 58:18
  in this type of quizzing or gaming structure?
• 58:20
  Why that can actually be a more interesting use
• 58:22
  of the tool than just as a straight quiz. So,
• 58:25
  but this is one of the places where sometimes
• 58:27
  I look at the cost of benefit ratio say, you
• 58:29
  know, to be honest with you, it's relatively
• 58:32
  easy, but not, not necessarily the best payoff
• 58:36
  you could get. Great. Well, thanks. I think we're
• 58:44
  gonna move into our lightning round questions.
• 58:47
  This is something that we do for fun with all
• 58:51
  of our guests just to have some lighter questions
• 58:56
  that really highlight the person that joined
• 59:00
  us on the episode. So Ruben, if you're good with
• 59:04
  it. Absolutely. You may have seen the questions
• 59:08
  in advance, but Jeremy and I kind of go back
• 59:11
  and forth on these and you can feel free to give
• 59:14
  whatever answer makes the most sense for you.
• 59:17
  It's one word answer or feel free to delve in
• 59:20
  a bit deeper if you'd like to. But we'll go ahead
• 59:23
  and start with that. Jeremy, you want to kick
• 59:24
  us off on that? Yeah, I'll take the first one.
• 59:27
  So Ruben, can you talk briefly about your experiences
• 59:30
  with performance art and exhibition? Sure, absolutely.
• 59:34
  So this is something that's been a part of my
• 59:35
  life ever since I can remember. I don't have
• 59:38
  a recollection office, but I'm told that as a
• 59:41
  toddler, I was at an installation performance
• 59:44
  art exhibit and happily playing with some of
• 59:47
  the elements of that art. So it's been something
• 59:50
  that's been part of all my life. And I've always
• 59:52
  tried to bring it as part of my experiences,
• 59:55
  also bring the perspective to my work. And two
• 59:56
  people I would like to highlight that I've worked
• 59:58
  with, Kathy Weiss, who's a choreographer and
• 1:00:01
  dancer I've worked with. on many projects. It's
• 1:00:04
  been wonderful. I've learned so much from seeing
• 1:00:07
  her think about the space occupied by dancers
• 1:00:10
  and seeing how we bring technology, interactive
• 1:00:13
  technology, into that space. And the other person
• 1:00:16
  I have at Death of Cry to do service no longer
• 1:00:19
  with us is Toni Carruthers. And Toni and I did
• 1:00:21
  quite a bit of work on installation art. And
• 1:00:23
  again, we both have a... a rather impish sense
• 1:00:29
  of humor. So a lot of our pieces were less about,
• 1:00:32
  you know, just what they were on the surface
• 1:00:35
  and more about, well, what's the type of things
• 1:00:38
  can you get people to go, hmm, and, you know,
• 1:00:42
  reflect on something in ways they wouldn't have.
• 1:00:44
  You say by bringing that touch of humor or a
• 1:00:47
  touch of the unexpected, you know, we did some
• 1:00:50
  pieces for instance that involved trying to control
• 1:00:53
  screens where the viewers had to collaborate,
• 1:00:57
  except it wasn't quite the way they were then
• 1:00:59
  getting them to think about what does it mean
• 1:01:01
  to be looking at these complex images and texts
• 1:01:07
  in ways that require that we collaborate, except
• 1:01:09
  it's not quite the way we think it would be.
• 1:01:12
  So it's an ongoing aspect of the work I do. And
• 1:01:18
  it both informs what I do, but it also gives
• 1:01:21
  me, once again, Great joy to be able to do some
• 1:01:24
  of this. Great. Yeah. Um, the next one is what's
• 1:01:28
  the smallest session you've gone down a rabbit
• 1:01:31
  hole on lately. We live in the, uh, kind of the,
• 1:01:33
  the YouTube world and the hall of that now and
• 1:01:36
  social media, TikTok and everything. So is there
• 1:01:38
  anything like, uh, a book hobby gadget, weird
• 1:01:42
  niche topic that you've dived into recently and
• 1:01:44
  got lost? Oh yes, and I've actually mentioned
• 1:01:48
  it a little bit, but YouTube is a very, very,
• 1:01:52
  very dangerous place for this. This is my music
• 1:01:54
  and being able to export music. And one of your
• 1:01:57
  obsessions has been on any of the YouTube videos
• 1:01:59
  that take a particular song or a particular piece
• 1:02:03
  of music and get into, well, how does this little
• 1:02:05
  piece work? And then it's like, okay, wait, how
• 1:02:08
  did the Beatles do that piece in revolver again?
• 1:02:11
  Oh, Okay, so let's have, wait, let me get my
• 1:02:13
  keyboard out. Let's see if I can reproduce this.
• 1:02:15
  Wait, let me watch this again. Is there another
• 1:02:17
  video on this? So believe me, it's, I have to
• 1:02:20
  thank all the people, all the musicians that
• 1:02:22
  have chosen to share their knowledge and their
• 1:02:25
  experience because for me it's both understanding
• 1:02:27
  and then, okay, let me get out that nice little
• 1:02:31
  Arturia I just picked up and see if I can pick
• 1:02:36
  this out for myself. I have to ask. I don't know
• 1:02:39
  if you've ever, if you've ever heard of this
• 1:02:40
  channel, but I I'm a big fan of Rick Beato and
• 1:02:43
  he does a series called what makes this song
• 1:02:45
  great. I love watching those cause he's the distant
• 1:02:48
  pieces and breaks them apart. And I'm really,
• 1:02:50
  it's pretty cool. So. Yes. And in fact, my colleague
• 1:02:53
  that I mentioned, Damian Bevil is also a fan
• 1:02:55
  of that channel. So yeah. Yeah. Really good stuff.
• 1:02:57
  You get a chance to check out Rick Beato. Yeah.
• 1:03:01
  Ruben, if you had to teach it in Larson on something
• 1:03:04
  totally non -school, what would you teach? And
• 1:03:08
  what would be your tip for people in whatever
• 1:03:10
  that area is? You know, places where I've never
• 1:03:14
  done this in any sort of academic context, but
• 1:03:17
  I would love to, you know, perhaps when they
• 1:03:19
  teach us a cooking, one of the things I do is
• 1:03:21
  I'm on the road a lot with my work. And sometimes
• 1:03:24
  for me, it's a question of, you know, I arrived
• 1:03:27
  somewhere late, there's no restaurant, but there
• 1:03:28
  is a supermarket or something like that. How
• 1:03:31
  do you spice this? How do you take something?
• 1:03:33
  I don't have it. If I'm lucky, I'll have a kitchen.
• 1:03:36
  If I don't, I don't even have that. But to think
• 1:03:38
  about how do you get some flavors into things
• 1:03:41
  and make something that's either comforting or
• 1:03:45
  wakes you up or is spicy, energizing, whatever
• 1:03:50
  it is. Just a little bit about. how I figure
• 1:03:54
  this out for myself, because it's not just a
• 1:03:57
  matter of saying, well, add some salt, add some
• 1:03:59
  pepper, but more a question of saying, what does
• 1:04:02
  a particular spice or a particular sale of spices
• 1:04:05
  bring to the table? And this is one of the other
• 1:04:07
  things I love about traveling when it's kind
• 1:04:09
  of, whoa, I've never tasted this. What's in this?
• 1:04:11
  I want to find this out. So that might be an
• 1:04:14
  example of that. Great. And then number four
• 1:04:19
  here is, what's a tool, and it doesn't necessarily
• 1:04:22
  have to be tech, that you can't live without?
• 1:04:24
  Something that you use constantly, that you just
• 1:04:28
  have to use? Okay, this one is, it is tech of
• 1:04:33
  sorts, but a very different one for a computer.
• 1:04:36
  An ultra -lightweight, but very warm fleece blanket.
• 1:04:40
  Why? I live in the Northeast, okay? And I love
• 1:04:43
  to be able to say, okay, I'm going to now sit
• 1:04:47
  outside or sit by the window etc and you know
• 1:04:50
  I can take my one of the things that's a joy
• 1:04:52
  for me of my tech whether it's a smartphone or
• 1:04:54
  a tablet or laptop whatever is it can go anywhere.
• 1:04:58
  But going anywhere here in the northeast, particularly
• 1:05:00
  if you like to hike, and I like to hike, is not
• 1:05:02
  exactly the warmest thing ever. So having something
• 1:05:06
  that I can wrap around me if I find a place to
• 1:05:09
  sit and say, okay, I'd like to now just quietly
• 1:05:12
  sit here and read and think or whatever, and
• 1:05:15
  not be constrained by it. And now I'm freezing
• 1:05:17
  and I need to get out of here, but to have a
• 1:05:19
  small lightweight blanket that I can have with
• 1:05:21
  me, that's a tech I would definitely highlight.
• 1:05:25
  It's a pretty damn important one to me, and I'm
• 1:05:30
  very happy to have. I think especially this winter,
• 1:05:34
  it feels like it's been colder and snowier than
• 1:05:37
  it has recently, but I could definitely picture
• 1:05:40
  you doing that. What's the most memorable aha
• 1:05:45
  moment you've had as a learner, like maybe something
• 1:05:47
  you'd struggle with and then all of a sudden,
• 1:05:49
  you know, the light bulb went on or, you know,
• 1:05:52
  the snap happened and it just... It resonated
• 1:05:55
  perfectly at that moment. You know, I mentioned
• 1:05:58
  that I enjoy games, and I enjoy not just digital
• 1:06:00
  games, but also different games. I've played,
• 1:06:04
  of course, chess and Go and so on. And the aha
• 1:06:07
  moments have been when I've been absolutely banging
• 1:06:09
  my head saying, well, I don't get this. Why does
• 1:06:13
  this opening work in chess? Why does this particular
• 1:06:16
  pattern matter in Go or whatever? And the aha
• 1:06:19
  moment is when suddenly an image comes to my
• 1:06:22
  mind and I say, wait. that's why or that's how
• 1:06:25
  and these are moments where it's at times sometimes
• 1:06:29
  it's a little hard to communicate you know i've
• 1:06:31
  had that moment in chess where i say oh so that's
• 1:06:34
  why that works and if you ask me can you explain
• 1:06:36
  stuff well i know how to do it i know the sequence
• 1:06:39
  of moves but explaining it is going to take me
• 1:06:42
  a while longer to get it so those are the aha
• 1:06:44
  moments when an image comes to my mind that allows
• 1:06:47
  me to see oh wait i see the pattern or I see
• 1:06:50
  where this is. You know, one of the things that
• 1:06:52
  to me was very interesting when the first really
• 1:06:54
  powerful chess players, digital chess players
• 1:06:58
  and digital Go players started to show up, was
• 1:07:01
  to be able to say when people say, well, wow,
• 1:07:04
  what was here? And to say, hmm, I've never seen
• 1:07:06
  that before. And then to have the hammer where
• 1:07:08
  I say in chess, oh, wait, that's like a gambit,
• 1:07:12
  except much more carefully removed at so many
• 1:07:16
  steps. It's kind of like a hyper gambit. And
• 1:07:18
  to be able to see, you know, to have a mental
• 1:07:20
  image of what that looks like. So that would
• 1:07:23
  be to me, that kind of aha moment. And as I say,
• 1:07:26
  I cannot claim that I'm the kind of player that
• 1:07:29
  for either chess or go where, you know, I can
• 1:07:32
  say, oh yeah, absolutely. It's no, you know,
• 1:07:35
  in both cases I have to think and, you know,
• 1:07:39
  jump on a particular opening or a particular
• 1:07:42
  context to see what makes it tick. Okay, Ruben,
• 1:07:48
  it's five o 'clock Eastern time, right? So dinner
• 1:07:53
  is calling pretty soon, I'm sure. So if you could
• 1:07:56
  have dinner with two people, either living or
• 1:08:01
  not, who would they be and what question would
• 1:08:04
  you absolutely have to ask them? That's a great
• 1:08:07
  question. Lots of different pairings. But here's
• 1:08:10
  who I would love to have since we've been talking
• 1:08:12
  about music. I'd love to have Miles Therese and
• 1:08:14
  John Coltrane with me at the table. And the question
• 1:08:17
  I would ask them is, I would ask them about the,
• 1:08:20
  so what sessions, you know, you, you look at
• 1:08:23
  the sessions, the recordings that exist, not
• 1:08:25
  just the audio recordings, but where you can
• 1:08:28
  see them interacting and playing off what's going
• 1:08:31
  on here. And to me, as, as, you know, as I say,
• 1:08:34
  not a good musician, a very amateur musician,
• 1:08:37
  but somebody who nonetheless loves the music
• 1:08:38
  and loves to explore it. I love to be able to
• 1:08:40
  say, okay, guys, tell me. How do you work together?
• 1:08:43
  How do you play off it? There's a moment in one
• 1:08:45
  of the video recordings where you can see, you
• 1:08:47
  know, Coltrane hits a note and Miles goes, whoa.
• 1:08:52
  And you can see his expression. I will hear more
• 1:08:55
  because I can see his style. Tell me more. What
• 1:08:58
  was it that struck you in that moment? What hand
• 1:09:00
  you heard that you heard then? That as I say,
• 1:09:04
  when Miles... You can see it in some other recordings
• 1:09:07
  where you see Miles, but that's an unusually
• 1:09:10
  strong one, where you see Miles go, wow. And
• 1:09:14
  this is, I would love to have that conversation
• 1:09:16
  if it were possible with both of them, because,
• 1:09:18
  you know, again, not just the fact that I love
• 1:09:21
  their music, but also I love how they created.
• 1:09:24
  Both were amazing creators and getting a little
• 1:09:27
  bit more of an understanding of both their individual
• 1:09:29
  processes, but also how they played off each
• 1:09:31
  other would be priceless. Great love the answer
• 1:09:35
  love the the music connections to that that you've
• 1:09:38
  brought up so The we I wanted to mention obviously
• 1:09:43
  I mentioned at the beginning about this too,
• 1:09:45
  but SWWC will be putting on our second annual
• 1:09:48
  AIDS symposium so AI for educators and And we
• 1:09:53
  have Becky keen joining us for that and you'll
• 1:09:56
  be joining us for that on on me first But I wanted
• 1:09:59
  to give you opportunities or anything that you
• 1:10:00
  would like to highlight also that you have coming
• 1:10:03
  up Sure, there's, you know, there's a number
• 1:10:07
  of different conferences, but let me highlight
• 1:10:08
  one thing that I think I will focus on at least
• 1:10:11
  one thing. I have the real joy of working with
• 1:10:14
  a group of fellow technologists, model creators,
• 1:10:18
  and so on a series of podcasts called Air GPT.
• 1:10:22
  And I would like to encourage anybody who's interested
• 1:10:25
  in hearing more about, you know, for instance,
• 1:10:28
  putting me to try. wealthy people on this and
• 1:10:31
  hear more about how different models are used
• 1:10:33
  in the context of AI and what we're thinking
• 1:10:36
  about good, bad, otherwise. As I say, for me,
• 1:10:40
  it's an incredible learning opportunity to work
• 1:10:42
  with the rest of the team. So if you do a search
• 1:10:44
  on air GPT on your favorite podcast system, you'll
• 1:10:49
  find it. I would highlight that because that's
• 1:10:52
  to me, the more you know, it's all just about
• 1:10:55
  me. It's also about the knowledge. and, you know,
• 1:11:00
  depth of thinking and understanding that the
• 1:11:02
  rest of the group brings. So that's why I would
• 1:11:04
  choose to highlight right now. Great. And in
• 1:11:07
  our show notes for the podcast and the YouTube,
• 1:11:09
  we'll make sure that we include all of your links
• 1:11:12
  and the podcast you just mentioned and the AIDS
• 1:11:15
  symposium event. But other than that, we just
• 1:11:18
  want to thank you for joining us again, Ruben,
• 1:11:20
  and we really appreciate your time. So thanks
• 1:11:22
  again. Thank you. It's really been a pleasure
• 1:11:25
  talking with both of you. Thanks for listening
• 1:11:34
  to Integrate This. Want to take your learning
• 1:11:36
  further? Head over to our YouTube channel for
• 1:11:39
  quick tutorials, deep dives, and more EdTech
• 1:11:42
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• 1:11:45
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• 1:11:48
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• 1:11:52
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• 1:11:56
  keep innovating, and keep integrating this.