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Inception · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello, listeners, It's Caitlin and Jamie from the future. Sure,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: and we're just popping in with a note about this episode,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: which is that we recorded and released it before Elliott
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Page came out as a trans man. So if you
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: listen to the episode in the present day, it may
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: sound like we are misgendering Elliott and dead naming them.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: So that might seem kind of jarring and careless, but again,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: it's just that we were not to know at the
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: time of this episode's recording. Yeah, that is just something
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: we want to make you aware of.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: If we don't want to jump scare jump scare you
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: with it. So yeah, because of when this episode was recorded,
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: we are unvirtually using a dead name because we did
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: not yet know. And with that, here's the episode on
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: the Big Podcast.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: it with the Bechdel cast.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Hey, Caitln, Yes, Jamie BA, do you ever think well
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: that we might not be podcasting at all?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Are we in a dream?
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: Bra?
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: And then we like look and then you look over,
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: like your shoulder all sexy, and you're like, it's a dream,
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: and then I go, no B. And that's basically the movie. Folks,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: that's the whole more or less. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: All due respect to Hans Zimmer This like you have
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: to imagine. Christopher Nolan was like, I just want the
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: soundtrack to sound like a large electronic fart because it's
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: so like, it's just it's overwhelming. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, this is the Bechdel Cast, in which, well, hello,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: I'm Caitlin, I'm Jamie, and we examine movies through an
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: intersectional feminist lens with.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: As little sound effects as possible. We pull from. We
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: use the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: pulling from a media metric invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: sometimes referred to as the Bechdel Wallace test, that requires,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: for our purposes, that two people love a marginalized gender
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: talk about something with each other. They also have to
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: have names, and they talk about something that's other than
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: a sisman for more than two lines of dialogue. I
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: have to be honest, Okay, we're also covering inception today.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: I was so, I was like, it's probably a no
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: for this one, but I was surprised.
• 3:12
  Speaker 5: But well, yeah, well yeah, I guess it's it's to
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: all of our to all of our listeners who aren't
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: actually listeners, who think we just talk about whether it
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: passes the Bechdel test or not, that's incorrect.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: But I was pleasantly surprised. I'm like, does Ellen Page
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: talk to Maryan Cotyard at any time?
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: The answer?
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: But then I also have I have that answer, but
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: then I also have a counter argument. That's a whole thing.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Oh sure, yeah, same.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: We're talking about inception today. We are okay, okay, I'm
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: wondering if we hit on the same thing. I'm just
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: like getting a big Jumanji energy from all of this.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: But yeah, Jumanji, the new one.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Wait, in what way? What do you mean in the
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: way that we.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Had that discussion about Jack Black and Jumanji, I have
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: sort of a similar feeling about marrying Coatillard an inception.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: On it, right, because her character is actually, oh, it's
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: a projection.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Of a man. Yeah, Like, I don't know if that
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: counts as a female character because he says to her like,
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: you're not you, You're me. So I'm like, okay, it
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: seems like it's been confirmed in text very I mean,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: this is this is like I was really I don't know,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: I had to go on a walk.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Well also, I mean, and we'll talk about this, but like,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: how little does he think of his wife? His wife
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: if his projections of her behave the way that she
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: does because she's like the villain of the movie. Anyway,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about it.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: She is, Yeah, she's a horror and then at the
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: end he kind of like ret console thing. He's like, yeah,
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of really remembering you falsely and exclusively at
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: your worst. So right, that's kind of on me. And
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: you're like, yeah, I would say that that is definitely
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: on you. But don't worry. Ellen Page is there to
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: just constantly be like you're great. Oh. And that's her character,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: h the redeemer and the projection. This is what we
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: have to work with with inception people. This is what
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: we have to work with. Yes, So what is your
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: experience with inception, Caitlin?
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: I saw it in theaters in twenty ten. I think,
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: like many people quite enjoyed it. It was hailed as
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: being you know, one of the smartest and most profound
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: movies of the decade for a while, and I was
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: admittedly fully on board that ship for quite some time.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: And then I don't remember exactly when this happened, but
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I felt like there was some kind of cultural shift
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: where a lot of people were like, you know what,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: maybe Exception isn't as awesome and as smart as we
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: thought it was. Maybe it's actually kind of silly.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And then I also midway through the decade, I
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: feel like there was kind of this mass. I wonder
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: if it was like when it hits streaming or something,
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: but there was kind of, yeah, like a mass, like
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: hold on, I just rewatched Inception for the first time
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: since twenty ten, and it's silly, right.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: And I also, you know, boarded that ship for a while.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: But I have then jumped on These are deliberate Titanic references.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: I have jumped off.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Of that ho k.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I have jumped off of that door and climbed back
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: onto the sinking Titanic of Inception being a good movie.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: And I am firmly in that camp again. And when
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: I say that it is extremely pretentious, it is so
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: far up its own ass.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: But it's like at some point in like I feel
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: like not to movie blame, but at this point, if
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: you're going to a Christopher Nolan moved and leaving like
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: that was so pretentious. It's like, at this point he's
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: made eleven movies. You gotta if you're showing up, you
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: gotta be ready for a pretentious thing to happen. Like
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: It's true, there's no I would argue, there's really no
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: excuse at this point to not know that Christopher Nolan
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: makes some of the most pretentious stuff in the game.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: I feel like we've been on kind of a similar
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: ish journey with it where I saw it. This movie
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: came out, they I think, I don't know, they're either
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: like the year Yeah, I guess it would be like
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: shortly before I went to college, because imagine going to
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: film school right after this movie came out, like oh,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: just droves of eighteen year old boys that are just
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: like I'm gonna make my inception and like just I
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: mean students of all genders. But you know, I would
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: I would argue a male heavy group that were just like,
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: oh my god, like just just really very into inception.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: I definitely liked it. I thought it was really smart.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: I saw it in three D and I got a
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: headache the first time, so then I had to see
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: it a second time in two D and I really
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: liked it that the second time. The first time, I
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: was like, I have a migraine, but I really liked it.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: And then, similar to you, I saw it kind of
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: midway through the decade after, and then I think I
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: had soured to it because I was in film school
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: when all the eighteen year old boys were really frothing
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: at the mouth regarding Christopher Nolan sure, and I didn't
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: love that. So I think I soured towards it kind
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: of early, but then every and then I realized. And
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: then I think midway through the decade, I'm like, this
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: movie is such a waste of Mary and Cootyard because
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: I saw Levianne Rose, which she won her Oscar for,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: and I was like, oh my god, she is so talented.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: How did Christopher Nolan like hire her after she like
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: did a performance like that and then gave her this role.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: But in any case, rewatching it, I watched it a
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: month ago before we decided we were doing this just
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: for fun, and it's I guess it's it's a variation
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: on a romp. It's a pretentious romp. Yes, I think
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: it's like a very heady romp.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, I would agree with that. It's extremely watchable. It
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: is too long for shorts two and a half hours,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: and that's just offensive. But I I do really appreciate
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: the world building as far as like a script goes.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: It's a pretty you know, it's potentially confusing the whole
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: dream within a dream, million layers of dreams thing, you know.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I I don't know.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: I also appreciate it, like you can enjoy this. I
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: can say from personal experience, you can enjoy this movie
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: without fully understanding exactly what's going on, yes, and still
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: just be like, Okay, that could have been a plot hole.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: I could have missed something, but like, well, I guess
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: they're all wearing white now like that. I don't know
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: why that reveal has always made laugh when they cut
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: to like everyone's in the snow and everyone's wearing white,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: and its just like watching it this time, I'm like,
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: I feel like Kanye West's like Property in Wyoming is
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: like this where everyone's just like wearing the same outfit
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: and it's huge and kind of scary. Yeah, but it's
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: just like, I don't know, it's so over the top.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: I appreciate. I really like the practical effects in this movie.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Great practical effects.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: I love the cast, except for Joseph Gordon Levitt.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Oh no, I like him.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: I think I see. I think that what has aged
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: the worst about this movie are it's it's treatment of
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: gender and casting Joseph Gordon Levitt in a large role.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: I'm just kind of done with him. I don't know
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: what it was that turned me on Joseph Gordon Levitt,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: but I'm like, he was in everything for five years
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: and then he kind of was like where'd he go?
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: But then I was like, I guess I just haven't
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: been I haven't asked myself that question. But he was
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: in everything. He was in every genre, and he was
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: so chatty, and I was just like, I need a break.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: I understand that. Yeah. I mean to me, there's there's
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: a lot to like about this movie in terms of
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: pure entertainment value. I'm not watching it because I'm like,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: I want to see strong representation of women because you
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: certainly won't find that no here, But.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: But I do I love that. Do you remember what
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: a big deal it was that Ellen Page was in
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: this movie. This was like kind of Ellen Page's like
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: cinematic glow up, like she'd never been in like a
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: gigantic movie like this before. I remember being really excited
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: about that.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Right because this was post Juno, Right. But Juna wasn't
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: like a huge blockbuster hit kind of thing.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Right, she She was kind of an indie darling for
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: a long time, and then this was kind of her
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: and I guess kind of for Mary and KOTR two
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: in terms of like big American movies, right, this was
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: her like huge spotlight too, So that's at least good. Yeah,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: I don't I'm reaching, but I still enjoy watching it. Yeah,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: even when I had kind of soured on it, I
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: still enjoyed watching it, I have to admit so. And
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: I honestly I like, Okay, just to quickly address right
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: at the top, all of the ichy news items being
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: bandied about about Christopher Nolan just about the way he
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: treats his workers sounds absolutely atrocious. Did you see that
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: news item that was like Christopher Nolan tells his employees
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: they're not allowed to sit down for thirteen hours, And
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: you're like, well, that's certainly uneth right, like he has
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: a and I feel like this kind of even before
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: we talk about the movie, this is such a problem
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: with I would say, largely male outeur directors, where while
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: it is genuinely cool and amazing, like we were just saying,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: to kind of see a person with a vision that
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: has carte blanche in terms of money, like that very
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: rarely happens, but when it does, it always happens to
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: white men. But like yep, in any case. But the
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: fact that on top of that, it's just like every
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: with little exception, like all the stories you hear about
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: these types of directors, they're just ego tripping, you know,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: over their own ego dick or whatever, Like it's just it.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: It is really frustrating to hear. And also the fact
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: that he was so he was like, we have to
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: release Tenet in the middle of a pandemic. I don't care.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: I have no regard for human life, which you already
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: made clear by the fact that his employees aren't allowed
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: to sit down, which is unethical, which is ablest, which
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: is on and on and on big systemic issues with
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: the film industry. So we're not I think we've made
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: this clear in our dark Night episode is well, we
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: are not vouching for Christopher Nolan. He sounds like a
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: complete asshole, right, I just and and it, and I'm
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: just like, God, damn it, why are the movies fun?
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: You know, it's very frustrating. His movies are very I'm excited.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: To see Tenant, so am I see it? I pissed off.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I'm so annoyed. I'm like, oh, I love John David Washington,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: and I want to see Kenneth Bronna play a Russian villain, Like,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: oh my ah, yeah, yeah, it sounds fun.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: I'll see it.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: I just it pisses me off. It's like you hate
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: to see it, but then also in your heart of heart,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: you kind of love to see it. And I really
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: hope that Warner Brothers starts to force him to treat
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: his employees ethically. You know, Yes, I have infinite trust
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: of a large corporation like Warner Brothers. I'm sure they'll
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: do the right thing. Oh, of course, one when haven't
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: they don't. Yeah, don't check the receipts on that one.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: In any case, Fuck Christopher Nolan. But unfortunately we enjoy
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: watching his movies.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, his sensibilities are like extremely in my wheelhouse because
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: he's usually doing yuh. I mean this movie is a
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: like action sci fi heist movie, which is like extremely
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: like up my Alley.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: I was reading about and I was just like, oh,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: because I mean, I feel like he has criticized pretty
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: frequently for like how sometimes people think his movie the
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: themes of his movies are like a bit too similar.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: And I think that the way he treats gender in
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: his movies, there's a lot of overlapping problems, just a
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: real fixation on advancing the plot by killing off sis
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: white women. Yes, but in any case, well, I don't
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: even remember what point I was arriving at. I just
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: got mad at him again. I feel like I feel
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: like a lot of people were not alone in having
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: a complicated relationship with the works of Christopher Nolan. Sure,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: and I wonder if it's generational. I want I wouldn't
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: be surprised if the generation after us is sort of
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: not in the way that we're like, oh, fuck Stanley Kubrick.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: We have no sentimental attachment to him. Where I feel
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: like it's possible that some of our attachment to Christopher
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Nolan is sentimental.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know that could be nostalgia is a real emotion,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: as it turns.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Out, Yeah, god damn it.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Well should I try to recap this movie?
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I have fun, I'll yeah, I'll yeah.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Please do the sound effects.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: I'll be the top. H did you used to have
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: I Okay, I this is really embarrassing. But I don't know,
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: especially right after I watch a movie, I'm really easily
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: like taken in by it. Sure, because it turns out
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: media is influential to your life. But I did, like
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: for like a week, just a week, but I did
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: like carry around a little totem with me for like
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: a week after I saw this movie. I'm like, I
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: had is that horrible? That's really embarrassing, only because I
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: would never expect you to do something like that, especially
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: for a movie like Inception. I carried around dice for
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: a week. I carried on It was Ellen Page that
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: had the dice. I had dice. I'm like, yeah, I
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: should carry out dice.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: It was uh, it was Joseph Gordon Lovett.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Well that makes sense because when this movie came out,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: I was so I was like, Joseph Gordon Levitt, genius, sexy, sensitive.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Do you remember he used to have that website called
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: hit Record. Joe.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I had like the DVDs of that me too.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: I was just I don't know, Joseph Gordon Levity. I
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: think it's I'm probably a wonderful person, but like he's
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: just so corny. I don't know. Anyways, I carried around
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: the dice and that's on me.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: That's incredible. I didn't do that. But as you recall,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: I used to I, well, I still have the ring
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: from Lord of the Rings on a necklace that I
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: only ever wore as I when I was cause playing
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: as Frodo, which I did do multiple times.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: One of the most iconic pictures of you of all time,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: because you're selling it and you're so.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Happy I'm fully in character. Yes, thank you so much. Okay,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: so the recap of Inception. Okay, this is a two
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: and a half hour movie and the plot is very complicated,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: so I did my best to simplify it as much
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: as possible. There's parts that I kind of gloss over
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: a lot. So if you really want to know what
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: the movie's about, just watch it. But here we go.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's on Amazon on Prime if you're you know,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: also in Jeff Bezos his pocket because no ethical consumption.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: It's there indeed.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we open on Leonardo DiCaprio in the water,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: and we're like, what is this the end of Titanic?
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: I have found Okay, this is a really early point
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: to interrupt. But I I had a thought and when
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: I consulted the one other person I've seen in the
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: past six months, Isaac, I was like, I feel like
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Leonardo DiCaprio in his career is very often on the
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: beach or in a body of water, fully clothed. It
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: happens a lot, a lot.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: He's well, he's literally in a movie called The Beach.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: But I feel like, I don't I don't.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Know, We're just closed for a lot of the movie.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I feel like he's.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Fully clothed in the water. In Titanic, he is in
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: a body of water at some point during a shutter
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: island clothed, clothed in the water. An inception. What is
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: it with this guy and being clothed in the water.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Just a fun movie trend.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Wow, I'll keep my eye on that.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone in the comments, shout out your favorite Leonardo
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: DiCaprio clothed in a body of water. I guess in
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: The Revenant, he's clothed in the snow, and also The
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Great Godsby dies in the pool fully clothed. He's clothed
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: in water all the time. Okay, it's a trope, a
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: trope specific to one actor that has no implications of anything.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Unlike most tropes, this trump is meaningless and I don't
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: know why it is so.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Or does it have meaning? Jamie Will you just have
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: to discover the meaning?
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Is he in the water in Gilbert Grape? I'm just like,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: maybe it's every he is water?
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Well, he's not clothed, but in He's there's a scene
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: where he gets left in the tub overnight and he's
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: and he's really cold, but he's naked.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, I guess that's an out.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: So does it count.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Well, it's maybe someone saw that movie and they're like,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: but what if he was fully clothed, and then that
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: it's just the rest of his career. I don't know.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: I don't know what.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's in his contract. He's like, in every movie
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I'm in, you are contractually obligated to write a scene
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: in which I am in. What Because there's another scene
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: where he gets dunked in the tub in inception, and
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: he is fully closed, fully closed in the beginning.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: It's not just like, oh, a T shirt and shorts.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: It's like he has like layers on in all of
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: these movies. He's like fully dulled up, fully clothed. Underwater
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: happens to him constantly. I couldn't stop thinking about it. Okay,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: that's all I had to say. Does he go into
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: a body of water in Wolf of Wall Street?
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: I have to imagine, Well, he's on a yacht at
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: one point. Yeah, it's just probably swimming pools.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna try to make a remember, I'm gonna try
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: to make a gallery for our instagram of well, you know,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: the DiCaprio underwater in clothes. It's just sy is.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: He in water in like Gangs of New York.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I still haven't seen that. I know.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: People love it. It's a slog. I'll tell you what, really.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Oh I thought it was a wroth. I was wrong.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm thinking of catch me if you can.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: People love catch me if you can?
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I do like can catch me if you
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: can is a romp.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: Because you go on underwater in that one.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: You know what, I would not be surprised at all.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: I don't remember if he does or not, but it
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: seems very possible in that movie.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: This is mind blowing to me. This is I don't know.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: I'll source some images, post it to our Instagram be
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: like any any film critics, have something to weigh in
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: with here, it's I feel like the other underwater trope
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: is like a white girl in a teen movie going
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: underwater in a pool to a flecked on her changing life,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: which is a more gendered trope with implications, whereas this
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: is just chaos. I don't know why it happens.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Well, I think we should start a new podcast about it.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, I agree, it's.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: beIN Off Okay, so okay, Lee Leo. His character's name
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: is Cobb. He is in the business of extracting information
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: from people's minds yep, by way of infiltrating their dreams.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: So he and Arthur that's Joseph Gordon Lovitt are trying
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: to extract something from mister Sido, whose name is also
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: pronounced mister Sato sometimes, so I don't know which one
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: it is because the characters say it differently.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: There's no continuity. The character never corrects. We just don't know.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: It's annoying.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, and he is played by Ken Watanabe.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: And Icon character actor love him.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Yes. Same. So they're trying to extract something from him
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: and they are inside of his dream in the beginning
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: of the movie. Also in this dream is Mal played
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: by Marion Cotillard.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Which did you did you learn that that French? Okay,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: this is like peek Christopher Nolan, But Mal is French
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: for bad or evil? If you want to finish how
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: simplistically Christopher Nolan views gender, He's like, okay, woman, women, women, women, bad,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: I'm getting bad, I'm getting bad. Okay, we can't just
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: name her bad. I guess we'll have to make it
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: French like yike.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Yes. So Mal is Cobbs, his wife, and she has
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: a habit of popping up in dreams throughout the movie,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: and we will later find out why exactly. So it
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: turns out that mister Sido knows that he's asleep and
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: that they're all in his dream. But wait a minute,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: they're still in a dream. They're in a dream within
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: a dream, and now he's impressed and they all wake
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: up from the various levels of this opening dream and
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Saido is like, Okay, I want you to do an inception.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: Rather than extracting something from someone's mind, he wants an
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: idea to be planted in someone else's mind, and Arthur's like,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: that's not possible, but Cobb is like, actually it is,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: but it's really hard.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Fortunately, mister DiCaprio, mister clothe underwater himself has the goods.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, so he's like, it's possible. It's really hard. You
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: just have to go really deep into a person's mind.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: And he's reluctant to do it, but Saido is like,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: if you do this for me, I will make it
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: so you can return to the US, because Cobb has
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: two young children who he can't go home to. But
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: we also don't know why yet exactly. So the idea
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: that Sido wants planted is in the mind of the
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: son of Sido's main competitor. He owns some kind of
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: energy conglomeratet.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: It's all vaguely evil.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Sido wants the son to walk away from
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: his inheritance to break up the empire. And I don't
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: know if that's because he's basically trying to avoid his
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: competitor from establishing a monopoly. And I'm like, okay, well,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: that's good, like monopoly shouldn't exist, but I feel like
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: it's because he wants to have the monopoly instead.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: I think that's kind of my question is as I
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: was at first, I'm like, oh, this is there's a
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: really fun, like leftist way to look at this. But
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: then the more I thought about it, I'm like, actually,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: I don't think that that is true. It seems like
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: the reason they want the monopoly broken up are also
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: capitalistic and pretty selfish. Uh huh, so zero out of
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: ten on that end, Yeah, because I was like, oh,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: I forgot this kind of angle of how do you
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: is it silly and Murphy? I think it's Killian Killian Murphy,
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: but I'm not sure who has beautiful eyes. I think
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: every time I see this movie like wow. And then
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: also his whole thing is ultimately movies are about fathers
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: and sons, which is just like, all right, I guess
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: we're doing this again, right in any case, Yeah, I
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: was thinking about that, and I don't think it's actually
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of like they're sort of doing
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: the right thing, but it's not for the right reasons.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: So confusing, not enough information, But what seems to be
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: there is not good. Okay. So now Cobb and Arthur
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: have to find a new architect, basically someone who creates
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: the worlds of the dreams that they go into. So
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: they recruit Arianne, which is Ellen Page's character, and they
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: show her the Ropes, and we learn that time and
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: dream world moves more quickly or more slowly. I don't Basically,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: five minutes in the real world gets you one hour
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: in dream world, right, And then we also learn about totems,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: which are the little objects that help these people distinguish
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: dreams from reality. They recruit Emes aka Tom Hardy to
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: be a forger basically someone who impersonates other people within dreams.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: And then they also recruit a chemist named Yusuf to
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: create sedatives to keep people asleep and let them go
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: deep enough.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Who is the scientist from Avatar?
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Is he? I don't remember?
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Yes? Okay, yes, I went deep down the rabbit hole
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: because I'm like, I like this character, director, where have
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I seen him before? And I'm like Avatar? And then
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: it was like, what has he done since inception? Literally Avatars?
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: So I think he's just been like trapped in New
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Zealand for ten years? Yeah, because Avatar.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Well, James Cameron will do that. Yeah, So his participation
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: in the story is necessary because they need these powerful
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: sedatives because for inception, you need to go down, like
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Cobb is like, we have to go down three levels
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: a dream within a dream within a dream. We also
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: learn that mal is actually dead, and.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: We're like, well, it's the Christopher Nolan movie. I guess
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: that stands to reason.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: That tracks so whenever we see her in any dreams,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: she is just Cobb's projection of her. And we find
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: out the reason that he can't go home and see
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: his kids is that people think that Cobb killed her.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: So they start planning the infiltration. There's this the kick
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: that they have to synchronize.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: I'm sing something the kick right, And they.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Figure out if they get stuck in the third level
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: of the dream, it might be like ten or more
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: years that they're trapped, so they have to like make
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: sure that that doesn't happen. And the time comes to
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: sneak into kill Murphy's dream. His name is mister Fisher.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: They're on a long flight from Sydney to la That's
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: when they go in. They hack into his brain.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: But there's not a Matthew Lillard to be found.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Where is Matthew Lillard in Hackers in this movie? Missed opportunity.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: So they get into the first level of the dream.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: They have a rough start, Cobb's subconscious projections keep interfering,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Sido gets shot. You know, they're trying to get a
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: combination from Fisher. All this stuff I'm going to kind
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: of gloss over. They get into the next level the
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: dream within a dream, Cobb tells Fisher that he's like,
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: by the way, you're in a dream spoiler, and he
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: convinces him that Fisher's uncle Peter is conspiring against him,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: and convinces Fisher to go into the next level of
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: the dream with them, which ends up being this kind
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: of remote fortress in the snowy mountains.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Right, this is like the everyone is wearing matching outfits
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: and has a machine gun. Question mark, Right, yeah, you're
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: just like, all right, I guess we're here.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Sure, chaos is happening all around them and in on
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: the other levels of the dream. In the third level,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: just as Fisher is about to open a safe, which
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: will effectively be the moment of inception, mal comes in
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: and shoots Fisher, which means that Cobb and Ariadne Ariadney
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: have to is that how you say your name?
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: No idea again, I think different characters say it differently.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because like at one point, Michael Kine's
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: like Ariadney except in a British accent.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Right, And you're like, is it just because he's British?
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: I don't know, not sure. I'm like, stop choosing these
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: names if you're not going to tell your actors how
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: to pronounce them, right, Christopher Nolan, it's like, literally, stat
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: like you've made five hundred movies, tell your cast how
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: to pronounce the name.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Yep, oh, well shouldn't be that hard and yet okay,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: So she and Cobb have to go down to yet
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: another layer of the dream I think, so that they
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: can keep going and get the job done. So now
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: that they're in like the fourth layer of dream world,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: and when they're down there, Cobb reveals that it was
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: him who incepted mal with the idea that maybe reality
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: isn't reality, and that's why she killed herself, because that's
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: something we learn happened. But now he's finally able to
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: let go of the guilt, and he stays behind to
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: find Sido, who has died in dream world and will
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: be stuck in limbo, so Cob finds him, which is
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: the scene that the movie opens on, and then everyone
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: you know wakes up from the various levels of the dream.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: We get back to reality on the plane, Fisher has
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: been successfully incepted, and then everyone gives each other a
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: meaningful look.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: It really oh my god. The Hans Zimmer is blasting that.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Everyone's just like, we did it. We did it. We
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: did it. We did it, we did it, we did it.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Ellen Page is like I forgive you, and you're like why.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Right Then Cobb returned home to see his children, but
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: the ending is left ambiguous because of the spinning top.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: We don't know if he's in a dream or the
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: real world. And it's like, Christopher Nolan, just let us
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: see the top fall over, you coward.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: That's no, I think that. That's like, I was like,
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: that's pretty cool. That is never not the coolest choice
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: to me. I'm like, I hate no. I hate it
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: because your team rose went to sleep and it's like,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: you know, I like that. They don't tell you and
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: it's a little wobbly and you're like oh oh oh, like,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: oh my god, it's fun. You can argue about it
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: with your friends on the way home. It's a movie
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: fun whatever. Like what am I just saying?
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, why are you trying to die on
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: this hill?
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: No idea? I retract dying on this hill.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: right back to discuss.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, Christopher Nolan, where do we? I mean, Okay, I
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: have a really quick rundown. I'm trying to I'm struggling
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: to remember exactly how much of this talk we have
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: sort of had to an extent in our Dark Night episode,
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: but I just wanted to give a quick rundown of
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: I feel like it is semi common knowledge among movie
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: lovers ficionados, if you will, that Christopher Nolan tends to
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: kill off female characters fridging we call it killing off
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: a female character, usually the significant other of the main
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: male protagonists, in order to advance the plot in a
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: rather lazy sexist way. I think Christopher Nolan is one
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: of the foremost offenders of this trope in modern movies.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: I will at very least say that it appears that
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: he has at least I mean it took him a
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: long time, but it seems like someone has brought this
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: to his attention at some point, because we have at
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: this as of this recording, we have not seen tenet.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: But it seems like at least in his past two movies,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: he has not fridged female characters. An Interstellar, I don't
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: believe it happens. And then there's like a dead there's
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: a dead wife, but her death is an integral to
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: the plot. And then what Dunkirk aka Boy Island has
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: zero women? So I think he kind of gets off
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: on a technicality by not including women at all, right,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: But just a quick rundown of how this very and
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: I think it ties into a lot of how much
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Christopher Nolan pulls from film noir and especially in this
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: movie the fem fetal tropes. Oh yeah, that he is
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: referencing without building on at all. But how dead hot
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: cis white hetero woman factors into his plots. It's remarkable. Okay,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: So apparently his first feature, which I've never seen, called
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: following has a beautiful dead girl is the twist at
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: the end. There's a twist at the end, spoiler, and
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: it's a dead white girl. Okay, momenta, Okay, So I'm
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: pulling here from a blog post from overthinking it dot Com,
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: where they very succinctly put this so Memento. A man
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: with amnesia is obsessed with finding the killer of his
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: beautiful wife. Yes insomnia. A detective plays a cat and
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: mouse game with the killer of a beautiful young girl.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: The Prestige. A magician engages in a bitter rivalry with
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: a former friend he blames for the death of his
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: beautiful wife. The Dark Knight. The lives of a masked
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: vigilante and a district attorney are shattered when the beautiful
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: woman they both love is killed. Inception. A dream thief
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: struggles with the crushing guilt of his wife taking her
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: own life. And that gets us up to so at
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: this point, like this is like sixth or seventh time
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: that Christopher Nolan has done this exact thing. Yes, I
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: am all for a director, Like I don't really have
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: an issue with Like I appreciate that Christopher Nolan seems
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: to be really interested in the concept of time and
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: time manipulation. That's his thing, not a problem. But he
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: dismisses female characters the same way every time. It's like,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: not just insensitive, it's also stunningly lazy.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: It's like get some new material, bro, like write a
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: new premise.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Seriously, if I was Chris, I know Christopher Nolan's his wife,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Emma Thomas, is a producer on I think maybe every
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: single one of his movies. If I were her, I
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: would just be so nervous. I'm just like, my husband
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: seems really like fixated on a wife being dead in
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: order to move on with their life. Like, yeah, what
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: is he trying to tell me? Also, this is his
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: brother writes some of the movies too, So Jonathan Nolan
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: is also at fault here, sure, yes, for being obsessed
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: with dead white ladies. I just think it's it's just
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: so strange. And this movie, I think is This and
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Memento for Me are tied with them for the most
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: egregious examples of this.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: But then the p Yeah, and we did talk quite
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: a bit about Fridging in the Dark Night episode because
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: the character whose name escapes me, oh no, Rachel Dawes,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: she gets Fridged.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: Or Maggie Jellenhall at death Bridge. But Katie Holmes at
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: other points in her life.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Right, she gets violence is you know, people are violent
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: toward her three different times in that movie. If I'm
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: remembering correctly, the final time being when she dies. So yeah,
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: there's there's constant fridging, all.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: To advance the plot of Christian Bale and famously I Frankenstein.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, go to the Matreon, but here everything the
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: whole teapot was spilled on Frankenstein.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm not seeing the thread. How does why Frankenstein connect.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: Aaron Eckhart.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Right, because he plays Harvey Dent in Okay, I get
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: it now.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: But then he later plays mister mister Adam Frankenstein. It
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: sounds so ridiculous to say out loud Adam Frankenstein, but
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: that's the character's name.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: But that's the only ridiculous thing about the movie.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Otherwise everything else makes total sense. But yeah, I and
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: I mean a lot of these Christopher Nolan movies I
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: enjoy in a macro sense, but it is kind of
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: stunning how the same thing happens over and over and over.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: And I think that especially how mal Mal's character, I'll
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: just call her bad. How Bad's character is treated in
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: this movie is very almost beat for beat, pretty similar
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: to how the oh I'm not remember the character's name,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: but his wife in The Prestigious treated right. It's like
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: she loses touch, she doesn't know what's real and what
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: is and ends up taking her own life. And then
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: men argue for an hour, and you're just like, why
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: is this a thing?
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Wait? What I remember from that? I need to rewatch
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: the Prestige. But the main thing I remember from that
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: movie is a woman dying in the very beginning in
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: that sort of like initiating that rivalry. Does another woman die?
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: No, I'm referring to that woman, but she comes back
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: through flashbacks and stuff like that.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: That's okay, got it, gotta got it.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's I believe it's Piper Perabau, who
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: is the the his wife?
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, got it?
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: In that movie?
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Any bottom line, Yes, Christopher Nolan has a terrible track
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: record when it comes to including women in his movie.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: He has a real fixation on a woman has to
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: be fridged and more specifically, die in a movie to
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: characterize my male protagonist.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Violently, die violently, especially like Memento and Insomnia. The whole
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: point of the movie doesn't happen unless a woman is
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: killed violently. Like it's really frustrating. I came across this
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: very helpful paper by I believe a Swedish writer whose
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: name I'm going to butcher and I apologize, it's Spherear Sigfusen.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: I'll link it. I apologize I almost certainly got that wrong.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: But they wrote a paper called Noir Guilt Complex the
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: death of women as a catalyst for character development and
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: plot in the films of Christopher Nolan, And basically, I
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: mean a lot of it is stuff we're going to
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: be discussing anyways. But I did think it was interesting
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: and I had never quite made this connection very explicitly
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: before of how dependent Christopher Nolan is on film noir
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: tropes in order for his movie to work, and how
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: I think like it's been regarded as like, oh, you know,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Christopher Nolan is updating film noir, when it's like, you know,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: maybe he is esthetically and effects wise, but in its
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: treatment of women, I would argue it's like even more
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: regressive than your average film noir, where you have obviously,
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: you have your your fem fetal who I think Mal
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: falls into that very cleanly, down to her haircut. For
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: some reason, she looks like it's a film noir movie
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: even though it's twenty ten, and everyone else looks like
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: it's twenty ten. But whatever, right, but she she falls
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: very cleanly into that. But at least in most film noirs,
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: which we have yet to cover on the show. But
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: just what I mean, I've seen some of them. I'm
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: not a huge fan. But at least part of what
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: distinguished a fem fetal is she is always, you know,
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: connected to the mystery, and she's often manipul There's definitely
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of negative tropes in there. But at very
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: least part of what makes a femme fatal interesting is
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: that they have agency that at that time it was
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: unusual for a female character to have, right, And I
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: feel like Christopher Nolan presents you with the esthetics and
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: some of the hallmarks of a femme fatal, but then
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: generally strips her of agency entirely. So in some ways
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: it's like even worse.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know, right, Oh yeah, Well, let me tell
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: you a little something that Christopher Nolan himself said in
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: an interview with Wired in twenty ten, shortly after the
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: movie came out, because he was asked about his like
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: noir references in his movies and particularly in Inception, and
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: he said, quote, the key noir reference is the character
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: mal It was very important to me that she come
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: across as a classic femme fatal. So he is literally
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: identifying her as such. That was extremely deliberate on his part.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: M hmm. Okay, back to the quote. The rest of
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: the quote is the character in her relationship to Cobb's
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Psyche is the literal manifestation of what the femme fatale
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: always meant in film noir, the neuroses of the protagonist,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: his fear of how little he knows about the woman
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: he's fallen in love with, that kind of thing. End quote.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: So see, I feel like, I mean, you know, everyone
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: is free to interpret anything anyway they like, but that
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: seems like a pretty unsophisticated interpretation of what a femme
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: fatal is supposed to. Like. I feel like he's kind
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: of telling on himself there a little bit, because to me,
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: that's never been to me what a femme fatale is
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: as a manifestation of the male protagonist insecurity. It's like,
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: I think that's how Christopher Nolan's fem fetals present mm hmm.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: But I don't think that that's I mean, for me,
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: I always viewed the fem fatale in terms of like
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: the negative stereotypes associated with them of being like the
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: threat of a woman who is sexually empowered and has agency,
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: and that this presents a danger to the protagonist, and
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: like it falls into the you know, stereotype that women
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: are always trying to deceive you and you can't trust women.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: When they say yes they mean no, when they say no,
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: they mean yes. And to me, that was where those
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: tropes lie. So the fact that he interprets fem fatals
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: that way is also like kind of I don't know
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: telling to me, I.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Guess, yeah, I don't And maybe that's just like the
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: way he thinks he's updating, But no, he says, like
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: this is a very classic femme fatale. So yeah, I
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: don't know exactly what to make of this, aside from
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: he extremely intentionally wrote Mal as a fem fatale, which
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: in itself is sort of confusing to me because, as
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: we already hinted at, the character that we see on
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: screen as Mal is in some cases in flashback, she
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: is a real person and alive in the context of
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: that flashback, but most of the time we see her,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: she is a projection of Cobbs subconscious, right, So she's
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: not even real. She's just his guilt ridden version of her,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: buried deep in his subcondion, which.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: Is also in text explicit too, like they say that
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: by the end, which brings me to I mean, we
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: were sort of referencing this at the beginning. But even
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: though there is an exchange in this movie that on
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: its surface may appear to pass the Bechdel test, I
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: feel like, with the exception of a few flashback lines,
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: most of the time we hear Mall speak, she's speaking
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: through Cobb's subconscious And so I don't think that really
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: qualifies as a female protagonist because it's made explicitly clear
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: intacts that she is a manifestation of his, which is like,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, could you have less agency? No right, you're
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: being repeatedly murdered, but you're also just a projection of
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: your husband. But we get to see her die violently
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: several times, don't worry.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Yep, yes we do. Does it pass the Bechdel test
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: when Ariodney kills her in the end, And does it
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: pass the Bechdel test when she stabs Ariodney towards the
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: beginning of the movie. Women are killing each other more
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: than you'd expect.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: At least her being a manifestation of like Emo Cobb
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: like at least justifies how overwrought Mary and Courtyard's dialogue is.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: And she's like a fabulous actor and she I mean,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: I really liked her in the movie when it first
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: came out. I was like, Wow, she's so cool. She's
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: so like compelling in the way that fem fe tel
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: characters can be. And she's really talented. But like on paper,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: my god, where she's like circling ellen Page like a hawk,
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: and it's just like have you ever been a lover?
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: And you're like, oh my god. And if you think
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: that that's actually like if you think about it, and
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: you're like, that's actually Leonardo DiCaprio subconsciously asking her that
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: you like leave ellen Page alone.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: Right, And on top of that those lines that are
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: being delivered by his subconsciousness version of mal she's just
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: quoting stuff he has said, like earlier in their life
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: to Ariadne, So she's like not even saying her own words.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: She's just like quoting Cobb's character.
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: So like, yeah, and the and even like the physical implications,
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: and I know that the story is not intended to
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: be read this one to one, but it's for the
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: sake of argument.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: I just I really it didn't sit well with me
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: on this viewing that it is like a victory every
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: time Leonardo DiCaprio shoots his wife and kills her, like
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: in this movie, brutalizing a woman means a really good
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: thing and progress for our protagonist. That he is able
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: to shoot his wife with a machine gun. That's good,
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: that's progress. We like that. Like, it's just I don't know,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: it's just kind of I know that it's not that
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: one to one, and you know, if you're watching the movie,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: you understand, but it is just on the surface is
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: kind of ugly. I don't like it.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Well, it's so weird because one of my big things
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: with this movie is that a lot of the complications
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: that arise in the story could have been eliminated if
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: Cobb just like went to therapy, because so many of
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: the obstacles are mall showing up and like trying to
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: interfere or sabotage their mission. And it's because he has
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: so much guilt about the circumstances surrounding her death, and
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: he's like buried all of this guilt in his subconscious
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: So these projections of her based on all this guilt
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: he is feeling keep popping up and ruining everything and
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: like messing with their whole operation. And it's just like,
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: if you just go to therapy, go to therapy and work.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: This shit out therapy, if Ellen Page will just do
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: it for free.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Like oh that, yeah, I have a whole I have
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: a whole spiel about that.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: But before we get to Ellen Page, I also wanted
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: to just quickly like the way that and I honestly like,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: I don't have a direct fix for this, given how
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: rooted this movie is in the brain and the subconscious.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: But the way that Maul's what manifests mental illness mm hmm,
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: that leads to her taking her own life. It just
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: is very I think under thought and pretty sexist in
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: the way that it's presented to the viewer, where you know,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: you are told by Leonardo DiCaprio like, well, I implanted this
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: sick thought in her brain and that blossomed into and
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: on and on, and you're, you know, it's like he's
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: towing a line there. Okay, let's see where this goes.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: And and the way that it manifests I just I
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: didn't really care for it all where you know, it
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: did lead to her becoming deeply paranoid about what is
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: you know, what is real and what isn't. That's inherent
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: to the story. But when it comes down to we
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: see her take her own life without knowing you know
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: that her husband is the one who has, you know,
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: basically forced this circumstance on her. And on top of
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: that that she did. I think this is like a
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: combination of handling mental illness very poorly, badly interpreting what
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: a fem fe tale is, and just good old fashioned
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: sexism where he had, like Christopher Nolan has Mary and
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: Courtyard's character say well, I've basically framed you for being
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: a horrible person, so you also have to take your
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: own life with me, and I've kind of like it
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: just makes her seem so devious. And the specific mention
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: of I've had myself quote unquote declared saying by three
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: different doctors and vagueness of that, I thought was very troubling.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: And I don't know, I mean, it's like I feel like,
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: you know, if Christopher Nolan is going to root a
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: movie in the brain and in the dark recesses of
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: the brain, and what are the consequences of exploring that
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: you have to do your homework and like deal with
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: that responsibly, Like that's literally what the movie is. But
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: then when you actually get down to the specifics and this,
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: you know, this criticism exists on many levels of this movie.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: You're like, huh, but this, but this is I think,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: like a genuinely harmful one of just kind of casually
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: being like, I don't know, defining reality, implying that women
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: are more susceptible. I mean, it's just I don't know.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: I just didn't like it. I yet it was handled
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: very unresponsibly, irresponsibly, My god, I.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: Have a whole thing about this where sure, we've talked
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: about the idea of a woman being a bitchy obstacle
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: for a male character to deal with quite a bit.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: I think there's a variation on this trope, and I
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: think it ties somewhat into the fem fatale conversation. But
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: I think there's a slightly there's a different version of it,
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: because if you do look at some like really well
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: written film noir, you do see femme fatale characters who
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: are nuanced and interesting fully characterized like have and not
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: in every case, but There are definitely case studies you
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: can do of certain fem fatale characters who are like
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: really interesting, compelling characters. If you take like the husk
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: of that, you get what I'm about to talk about,
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: which is again this variation on the bitchy oppos I
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: don't know exactly what to call it, because, as we've
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: talked about recently, we're doing our best to really eliminate
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: words from our vocabulary that have any disparaging or negative
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: connotations surrounding mental illness. So I was inclined originally to
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: call it like a crazy obstacle, but I don't want
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: to use that word anymore. So I'm trying to figure
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: out exactly how to best characterize this. But basically the.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: Idea group effort, we got this right.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: The idea is a woman will be depicted as having
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: behavior that is erratic or unstable or irrational or obsessive,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: and that behavior becomes a major obstacle for other characters,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: particularly the male protagonist. We see this in movies such
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: as Glenn Closest character in Fatal Attraction. This is a
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: huge one. We see it in Kathy Bates' character in Misery,
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: even like Wayne's ex girlfriend in Wayne's World. You see
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: it in Andrew Garfield's character's girlfriend in the Social Network.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: This is the whole plot of my super ex girlfriend.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: This is uh Isla Fisher's character in Wedding Crashers.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: So it is so I mean, so pervasive that and
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: I think that, I mean, this goes to a lot
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: of tropes that go I mean, even hearing that list
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: like sends me kind of back to like research I
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: did on mensa in just terms of like how it's
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: a generally accepted thing for for a very long time
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: and still by many people now that the brain of
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: a woman or just a not a cis male, is
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: weaker and more fragile and more, which is stigmatizing to everybody. Yeah,
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: because I feel like it also reinforces this hyper masculinity
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: of like I'm a boy, my brain is stronger. I
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: couldn't you know, I couldn't possibly need therapy, I can
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: possibly need to seek out help because I have a
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: strong brain. And just I mean the implications that this
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: go on and on and on. But yeah, there is
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: like this very common perception that you know, women are
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: not I don't know that. Yeah, Like there I think
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: that it's been often labeled as women are inclined towards hysteria.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: It's stated explicitly in many cases, and I think that
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: it's stated not quite as explicitly in this movie, but
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: it's heavily implied. And yeah, I mean it's incredibly frustrating,
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: and it's still you know, in movies to this day.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: This was ten years ago, and it's.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Weird because, like so this is kind of a different
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: circumstance than a lot of those other movies I listed,
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: because in this case, mal being this obsessive, unstable person
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: is well, okay, part of it is what she becomes
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: after having been incepted and effectively gasline it, because what
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: is inception besides it being like gaslighting someone.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: On a like you know, a chemical level.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Right, So, after after he incepts her and makes her
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: question her own reality to the point that she dies
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: by suicide. So there's that factor. But then also a
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: lot of what we see of her on screen again
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: is his projections of her, and she is again very meddlesome.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: She's showing up to sabotage their mission all the time,
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: and in that way, she becomes this obstacle who is
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: again characterized as being irrational, unstable, et cetera. But like
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: that's his version of her, so like which we learn.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: At the very end. But I feel like at that
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: point the damage has kind of already been done and
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: it's well, it is an interesting twist, I guess, Like
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: I remember when I first saw the movie, when you
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: find out what the real circumstance of like her death was,
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: You're like, oh, this okay, but but it's just not handled.
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: It's handled so I think strangely, and I think it
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: is a lot of what it is is she's treated
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: so poorly and kind of so inconsistently because it's just like,
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: that's not who the writer's concern is. The writer is
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: concerned with basically absolving Leonardo DiCaprio from as much guilt
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: as they possibly can before the movie is over. And
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: that is I think a huge reason why Ellen Page
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: is involved so heavily. There's elements of her character that
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: I like, but her you know, huge task here, I
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: think is to take on, you know, Cobb's emotional baggage
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: and absolve him of guilt. Yeah, that is basically her
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: plot function, and and it's just I don't know, it
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: seems like the plot is designed to examine his guilt,
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: explain why he's feeling that guilt, and then say, actually,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: we forgive him.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: It's fine, right, because like there should be more stories
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: about men dealing with their feelings and acknowledging that they
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: have feelings and coping with them in healthy ways. Like
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: there are not stories about that very much. Not that
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: this is a story about that either, because he does
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: not deal with his feelings in a healthy way.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: No, he just waits for someone to tell him to
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: not deal with it, and then he doesn't like, well,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess, I don't know. I guess in
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: that last scene, I will say this is embarrassing also,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: But like that last scene with him and mau it
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: still gets me a little bit when she's you know,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: they did grow old together. That's very sweet that part.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: You're like, okay, fine, you got me for a second there,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: But but it's like it's just so it, you know,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: even that moment is designed to absolve him of the
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: consequences of his actions. The fact that he did a
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: bunch of sweet, nice things in the dream world before
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: gaslighting his wife and causing this personal catastrophe and taking
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: her life from her. The fact that they grew all
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: together in the dream world is supposed to make that okay,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: And and the movie just kind of runs with that.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because he should feel guilty.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: He should feel I don't know why everyone's like, don't
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: feel guilty. It's like, yeah, go to therapy, feel guilty.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: Probably go into a different line of work like that.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: These are these are the things I see. It's like,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: be a father to your children. Huh, get a different job,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: like just come.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: On, become a real like an architect who just designs
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: buildings in the real world. Like stop it feel.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Like Joseph Gordon Levit in five Hundred Days of Summer God,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: because Okay, I honestly, I kept getting confused because I
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: know that everyone in that I couldn't tell you who's
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: doing what in the in the tea, the dream tea,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: and they're like, I'm the architect, I'm the PA, I
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: do the lights, or like whatever the fuck they're doing.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: The inception squad, they're all they all each have their
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: little job.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: Ye squad. But I kept thinking that Joseph Gordon Levitt
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: was the architect because he's an architect in five Hundred
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: Days of Summer. But he's not he's like the gaffer
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: of dreams. I don't know what he does.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: His job is never given a name, because you have
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: Ariadney is the She's the architect. Eames aka Tom Hardy
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: is the forger. We've got the chemist and Yusuf. But
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: we don't know what Joseph Gordon Levitt's character is, what
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: his job title.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: Is supposed to be, like cute and around he I
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: don't know, I don't I like need to get past
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: by Joseph Gordon Levitt, Like I just find him bothers them.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: But it's fine. He's not a bad person and that
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: doesn't happen enough so.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: That we know, of Gosh, they still care before you
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: drag me check the date that this was really.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: God, But I guess where I land on Mal's character
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: is that like the way she behaves is not her
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: fault because Cobbs gas lit her into this warped version
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: of reality. And then the rest of the time we
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: see her is his perception of her. And again he
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: barely thinks very little of her.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: If he just and then at the end he kind
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: of like self owns himself by being like yeah, obviously
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: or nothing like this, And you know, I guess I'm
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: just a little better. But but then it sounds like
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: he's like calling, he's insulting her. It just sucks like
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: every like it's a personal victory when he's cruel to her,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: and it's a personal victory when he murders her because
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: she is his guilt. Right, find a better metaphor for that, Like, oh,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: don't keep killing Mary in Courtyard, she's she's so talented. Yeah,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: I found that whole thing. Really, this is just a
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: plot issue. Why wouldn't he just tell her he incepted
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: her when she's on the ledge? Feel like that might
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: do it? Right?
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: There are many plot holes in this movie, and I
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: don't even know what they all are because it's so complicated.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: I'm not paying enough attention.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: But I know that they're there. I just don't know
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: what they are. But like, right, what is Why wouldn't
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: he just because she's not real? What are the what
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: would be the consequences if he told her that sooner?
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Because him got worst a divorce? Right in dream world
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: even or in the real world? Like why doesn't he
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: just tell her at any point in the movie prior
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: to the end, Like there's no I don't understand what
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: the disadvantage of revealing this sooner would have been, and
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: I understand story and whatever. But yeah, so it's like right,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: so like in storytelling, the character arc doesn't happen until
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: the like the full arc doesn't come all the way around.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: He won't change or grow until the end. But like
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: what just oh it goes back to like find a
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: better way to deal and like again, a man dealing
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: with grief, Like that's an interesting story. Like men are
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: so conditioned to be emotionally closed off and to like
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: not acknowledge or feel their feelings, and like so a
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: story that explores that is worthwhile. But even like in this,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: he just doesn't. He doesn't deal with his grief in
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: a healthy way at all. He's just he's so he's
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: just keeps well, I mean it's coming and.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: His characters grow too much. Then Christopher Nolan might have
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: to do that, and that's clearly like not something that
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: is on the table. So I don't know. And again
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: it's like when we talk when we talk about Christopher Nolan,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: I guess I'm also including I mean not in Inception.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Nolan didn't write Inception, Christopher did he? But Jonathan
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: Nolan is very present in the perpetuation of this in
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: the Nolan Expanded Universe.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: Sure whatever, So like, I guess my point, we're like,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: kind of what I'm trying to figure out here is
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: mal The way we see her behaving in the movie
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: is really not her fault because the gaslighting and her
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: being a projection of his subconscious when we do see her.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: But even so, the movie frames her as the villain
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: who we are not supposed to identify with or we
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: are not, like she's just there to further characterize Cob,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: So we as the audience are meant to see her
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: as an obstacle, as a complication. I think there's part
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: of it where like we are supposed to be like,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: oh no, we especially at the end when she's like
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: when she finally learns because he finally tells her that it.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: Was him and gave her the agent that him. Isn't
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: he just telling himself, like he's the truth to himself,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: because like she's dead, You're like you're making amends with
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: you You're subconscious you're not even making amends with your
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: wife because it was your fault that she died.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: Which is an important part of like growth of like
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: admitting something to yourself and acknowledging that you have a problem.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: That is literally step one of the process.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: But I feel like it's framed like he's making amends
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: with which is so weird because in the previous moment
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: he's like, I know that you're not you. I know
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: that you're a part of me. But then it sort
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: of evolves into my read And maybe I'm just like
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: an unsophisticated viewer, but like when I was first watching
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: this movie, I thought the movie was very clearly saying like, oh,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: and isn't this nice. He made amends with his wife
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: and he apologized to her. But it's like, if you
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: think about that for even point oh one seconds, he's
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: not she's dead. It's done. I just ugh, messy, messy,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: messy Chris.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: In the real world, after they have woken up from
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: that like fifty years long dream where they grow all
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: together and build a whole world together, he knows that
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: there's something the matter because one because he incepted her
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: and two because he's done right says like, yeah, she
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: wasn't the same. I could tell something was wrong. Then
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: like make sure she gets help, like go to couples
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: counseling together.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: I don't like to do somebody but his but I
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: but I feel like they dodged that by being like, well,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: we can't tell people about the whole dream thing or
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: or or, which is like okay, but nuh. Also, I
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: thought this is like the Moo's minor character to the
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: point where you don't even see her. But they made
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: Grandma seem also like a very cruel bad character that
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: was like you can't, I don't want you to talk
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: to later, and I'm like, uh, look at what she
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: has to work with here, Like she thinks that you
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: murdered her daughter, which basically you did, so stop being
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: such a baby. Of course she doesn't like you. There's
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: so I wouldn't If I was the grandma in that situation,
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: I would be like, these kids are being raised by me,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: bye bye. Like Leonardo DiCaprio doesn't get with in I
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: also don't fully understand why he gets to be with
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: his kids at the end, but I think that that
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: was because I always stopped listening. By the end of
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: this movie, I'm sure it's justified. But this, okay, so
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: this kind of do you have anything else on? Mal?
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: I guess the last thing I wanted to say, and
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit of repetition of what we've
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: already said. But this is coming at it more from
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: like a screenwriting point of view, not that I have
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: a master's degree or anything, because I would hate to
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: bring that up.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: Oh. Also I thought Ellen Paige in this, I was like, Wow,
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: gradical visibility. Caitlyn's going to be thrilled.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I did appreciate that. Anyways, So the like, okay,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: so a movie generally has an external struggle and an
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: internal struggle. Here's just many mini screenwriting lesson for all
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: of our listeners out there. The external struggle is more
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: or less the outward plot of the movie. So Inception,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: the external struggle is the Inception squad trying to accept
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: Killian Murphy. The internal struggle of a movie is whatever
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: emotional struggle that the protagonist is dealing with which exists
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: alongside the external struggle. So in this movie, the internal
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: struggle is Cobb dealing with the guilt and regret and
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: memories and all that stuff surrounding his wife Mall, which
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: I feel like is such a and we've talked about
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: this a lot in different episodes of a female character
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: whose only function in the story is to be a
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: male character's internal struggle as a way to like further
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: characterize the male protagonist, Like she doesn't have any of
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: her own agency or interiority or anything like that. And
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: this was like such a I'm example.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is egregious, like an egregious example of
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: like very I mean, you couldn't more intentionally take agency
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: away from a female character than to make her a
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: projection of the male protagonist. Like that's just above and beyond.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: It's comical almost, It's like it's funny, how ridiculous it is.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that was That was the last thing really
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: that I had on mall.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: Justice for Mary and Cotyard. She's wonderful. Why would you
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: do this to her?
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: I know, let's take a quick break and then we'll
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: come right back and we're back.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: Let's talk Ariadne woo. So I mean, first of all,
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: goes with that saying Ellen Page queer icon love her.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, big fan another egregiously named Christopher Nolan character.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: I learned that Ariadne is a mythical reference. Yes, but
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: it basically translates to it it's it's a redeemer. Literally
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: the Redeemer, Ariadne the Redeemer, and boy does he have
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: some follow through on that one that is pretty explicitly
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: her purpose in the plot, as we referenced multiple times, Yes,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: there are, I think. Okay, So in that same paper
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: I was referencing earlier about film nor our guilt complex, Yeah,
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: I sort of agree with the writer in saying that
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: Ariadne is kind of an outlier in the Christopher Nolan
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: film canon in that, at least on the surface, there's
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of things that Ariadne like has that Christopher
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: Nolan would usually only afford to a male character, such
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: as she doesn't die.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: This is.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: Such as we know what her job is, and she
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: is not defined by being someone's romantic partner or by
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: being a mother. It truly is like the most bare
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: minimum shit possible. But it's worth saying that this character.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: And then I guess I haven't seen Insomnia in so long,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: but I guess that there is a character in Insomnia
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: who has a similar position of just like extended the
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: basic courtesy of not being a murdered wife.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: Imagine that I.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: Would still, I mean, and we'll talk about like, I
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: don't think Ariana is in any way a developed character,
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: and she doesn't have as much agency as she should,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: and her storyline is so chained to Leonardo DiCaprio's progress
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: as a character. And I think that she is very
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: much I think it is somewhat some. I mean, I
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: think it's pretty gender that she is brought in as
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: kind of the person to take on his emotional baggage
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: and absolve him of this guilt. Right, that's all very true.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: But we know what her job is, we know what
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: her interest is. She isn't brutally murdered. I hate that
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: we have to like grasp for these straws, but there
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, what struck me very very initially before we even
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: before I even like started prepping for this episode or
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: anything like that, just kind of thinking back on the movie,
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: remembering having seen it in the past, was that she
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: is a character who is new to this world of
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: infiltrating people's dreams. And one of the functions of her
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: character within just the context of the movie is that
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: she is a conduit by which the audience receives information
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: and exposition about.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: She's your the world.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: She's perhaps the avatar.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: She's your avatar.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: And this is obviously not an uncommon function for a character.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: But but I feel like the optics of one of
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: only two female characters in the movie and the only
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: female character on the inception squad not knowing anything and
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: having to be taught everything, like having to have men
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: tell her all the stuff that I have mixed feelings
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: about it, because on one hand.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: I hate it.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: You do get to see you do get to see
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: how smart she is, how quickly she's able to learn
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: and piece things together and like create mazes and complex architecture,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: But it also means that you do have to see
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of men explaining everything to her, and it
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: means that all of the men on the team are
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: way more seasoned.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: And experienced exactly than her.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: Even like even.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: Killy and Murphy, who's not even who's being gaslighted, knows
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: more than she does.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: Right, he knows more about inception and like extraction than
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: she does.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, even removing gender from the discussion.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: I just always find this to be very obnoxious to
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: have to sit through that, you know, because it's literally
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: just like, what is the first rule of writing show
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: don't tell? But this is just like, yeah, I mean,
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: I have this same issue with Harry Potter where it's
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: like the whole first movie is just like Harry Potter's like,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: what's this? And then an adult is like, well it's
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: that and he's like, oh interesting, and like that is
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: the whole movie. I just I don't know it happens
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: in Avatar. But also it's the title, so whatever, he's like,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: what's this.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: Well, in a lot of movies with like heavy world building,
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: you do need sure to be explained the rule. The
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: audience needs to understand the rules of the world, so
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: you know, you usually have to have a character act
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: as like the proxyed Avatar by which that information gets
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: explained to us. So I don't necessarily even have a problem.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: I don't have a problem to that is just a concept.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: But for it to be like the one woman on
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: the team, yeah, is the one who doesn't know anything
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: and has to be told of because like, why couldn't
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: there have just been another woman in the squad maybe
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: she's the chemist or why couldn't and we'd have a
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: woman in stem Yeah, why couldn't like.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: Joseph Gordon Levitt have been the newbie? Like why did
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: it have to be a female character, especially with and
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: again it's like like you were kind of just saying like,
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: if we had more women in the story, this would
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: be less of a problem because there would be more
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: women in the story. There is only like really one
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: and a half women in the story because mal is
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: only mau some insteads so right, So it's like, yeah,
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: the fact that I got really frustrated. I kept like
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: pausing the movie and like stomping around and being like,
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: I'm elm page, what's this, what's this?
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: What's this?
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: What's this? I forgive you? What's this? Because that's just
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: like she forgives them for stuff that she doesn't need
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: to and then she's like what's this And it's frustrated
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: because we are given Like I don't know, I feel
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: like this is a weird phase of Christopher Nolan slowly
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: realizing that he keeps doing this, and so I mean,
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: I'm this is conjecture, but maybe this is like the
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: point in Christopher Nolan's career where he's like, okay, okay, okay,
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: so I keep killing wives. What if I did that
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: and there was a second woman? Like I think he's
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: just kind of messing around with the formula and being like,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: maybe they won't see this if I put this over here,
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: you know, he's like the prestige, but but it doesn't work.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: And it's really I like that at least, I mean,
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: it's just I always find it really frustrating when you're
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: given the infrastructure speaking as an architect, speaking as a
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: guy from five hundred Days of Summer, you have the
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: you're being given the like the bones of a character
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: that could be really interesting. We know at least some
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: things about her. We know that she is good at
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: what she does. We know that she's a fast learner,
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: we know that she's interested in all this stuff. But
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: then it just kind of like goes nowhere. They only
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: characterize her as far as they need to in order
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: for her to engage with Leonardo DiCaprio on his terms.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: And most of her agency I do think she has.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, she certainly has more agency than mal who
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: has nothing where like she does, you know, choose to
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: kind of she wants to know what is Cobb's deal.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: She is like actively pursuing answers there, but it's about
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: but it's just about him, Like all of her agency
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: is directly connected to learning more about him.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: The one time that it deviates from that as far
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: as I could tell. Maybe there were other small moments,
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: but if they were, I didn't even notice where. Toward
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: the very end, it seems like they have failed because
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: mal came in and killed Killian Murphy. So it's like, well,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: that was it.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: Then, I don't know why I always feel so bad
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: for Killy and Murphy in that moment where I'm like,
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: he does not know what's going on. He's like, where
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: am I? And then he just's like really suddenly murdered
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: by Mary and courtyard. And it's kind of funny because
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: Ellen Page is like, don't let her kill Kelly and Murphy.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: He's so confused, and Leonardo DiCaprio is like, I don't know,
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: maybe I'll let her do it, and then she does it.
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I always laugh and any guy.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: In any case, it is Arid's idea to go into
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: the next level, go into a deeper level so that
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: they can keep going and succeed in incepting Fisher.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: That's true. That's true. I had I hadn't. Yeah, we'll
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: give her credit for that. That's smart, and that's and
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: it's only because she had that outsider's perspective too, right,
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: So that's fair.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that, but that was kind of the only
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: moment where she's really given any agency that impacts the
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: narrative in a way that is not directly tied to
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: Cob and his like guilt.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: Also, I didn't like the moment where it's kind of
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is nitpicky, but there's a moment where
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: kind of like DiCaprio implies that she's a real one
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: for not assuming that he killed his wife. Like he's like,
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: you're not like the other girls. You didn't assume that
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: I murdered my wife. Like, I just thought that was
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: a really annoying Dialogue edition where he's like, yeah, everyone
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: thinks I killed my wife. What the hell? And then
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: she doesn't really say anything for a second, and he's like, yeah,
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: thanks for not assuming I killed my wife. That's a first.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: And you're like, she's just like, you did kill your wife.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: She's like, go to therapy, bro, what are you talking.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: DiCaprio's whole thing is I didn't kill my wife, but
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: like he absolutely did kill this what one hundred.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: Percent indirected though it may have been, he is he
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: is one million percent responsible for her death.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: In a court of law culpable, Yeah, culpable, he did it.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: I would not yeah, let him have his children back. Sorry,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: I just wouldn't.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: They are not safe with him.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: Those kids, Okay, those kids imagine being older and then
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: like finding that out. I would have been like I
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: wish they had left me with Grandma.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: Like right, this is bullshit seriously.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: Also, oh wait, okay, sorry, one more annoying aside. Can
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: you imagine I wonder okay, what's your opinion on this,
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: because not all of the effects in this movie have
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: aged super well it's been ten years. Some moments you're
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: just like, oh, that's a computer. But the okay, the
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: kids running away, are they like photoshopped in running away?
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: Or did they like shuttle these kids all around Burbank
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: for weeks to just run away.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: I would imagine that they green screened that. So they
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: just put the kids in front of a green screen,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: showed them running away, and then just like imposed that
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: image of them. Because you see that, I'm like, that's
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: really basically every scene in the movie except for like
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: the snow, like the blizzard fucking world.
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: Not green screen. That is so much work for those
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: poor kids that aren't even allowed to show their faces
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: until the end of the movie as a plot point.
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: I also couldn't see like what he was like, I
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: can't look at my children's face. I'm like, just go
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: to therapy.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: Ugh, my guy.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: But yeah, no, I wouldn't give him his kids back.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: I don't think he should have gotten his kids back. Sorry,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: no career change, honey.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: A couple other things I wanted to say about Ellen
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: Page's character. This is an action movie. There's a lot
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: of action. There's a lot of fighting, there's a lot
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: of chase sequences. But she does not get to participate
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: in any of that. And it's like, well, you could argue, okay,
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: well she's not a trained fighter, she doesn't have any
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: of that training. But even so, again the optics of
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: like having your one female character not be able to
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: participate in any of the fighting except for that, except
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: for the scene at the very end when she does
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: pick up the gun and shoot mal but other than that,
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: like she's which.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: Does pass the Bexel test, Yes.
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: Yes it does. When a woman shoots another woman, it
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: passes the Bechdel test. No, but well, bullets are men,
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: so I think I think maybe not wow phallic?
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: Uh yeah, no, I agree. I mean the fact that like,
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: and this is like, I mean, we're really like getting
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: into it here, but I feel like that's what Christopher
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: Nola does, so it's fine we can too. But the
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: fact that, like the only woman in the movie who's
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: allowed to do combat is a projection of a man,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: is my god, my god, like because it's not like
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: regular like mal when she's herself and she is like
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: prior to her death, she doesn't fight. It's only when
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: she is in the dream world as Leonardo DiCaprio's hyper
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: mask projection that she is a skin killer, you know,
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: Like it's just like, yes, I'm so, I'm so annoyed
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: by by all of us, I think, I mean, yeah,
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, Ellen Page also deserves better than this part. Also,
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: there was like, okay, genuinely I can never get a
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: read on, like are they trying to like push some
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: sort of like subtle love story with Joseph Gordon Levitt
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: and Ellen Page in this Because if so, I don't,
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: like I've never been less compelled by anything in my
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: entire life. But they keep putting them together and like
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: saying cute things to each other. I'm like, am I
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: supposed to like want more? Of this because I just like,
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: I just don't I.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: Never thought that. The only thing to me that would
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: indicate that a little bit is that scene where they're
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: I think they're in like the second level of the dream.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: Cobb has just told Killian Murphy this thing, and they're
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: in like the lobby of a hotel or something, I think,
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: and Killian Murphy has just learned that he is currently
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: in a dream, so like now his projections of his
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: subconscious are like basically trying to figure out who who's
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: the dreamer or like who are the outsiders? So they
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: all look at Ellen Page and Joseph Gordon Lovett and
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: He's like, oh no, here, maybe it'll distract them if
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: we kiss each other, give me a kiss.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: I feel like that is like a I don't know,
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: I thought that. And the only reason that I'm kind
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: of willing to go with like I think that we
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: were supposed to like want that is because Christopher Nolan
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 2: is so profoundly unskilled at writing anything like romantic that
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: isn't traumatic. Like he can't just write people that have
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: a crush on each other. It's just not what he does.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: I think we were supposed to be into that it's
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: either way. It's like if so, that's even more insulting
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 2: to Ariadne to think that you need to like try
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: to like force a love interest on top of all
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: the you know, disservices she's that are being done. But
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: it barely reads because she and Joseph Gordon Lovett just
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: like couldn't have less chemistry. It's given like two seconds
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: of attention.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, kind of I can maybe see that, but
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: it also it never occurred to me that they were
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: trying to like push a little like romance between them.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: If anything, I thought that Joseph Gordon Lovitt and Tom
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: Hardy were like flirting. They were like nagging each other
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: a lot. But I'm like, you guys are flirting and
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: you should just fucking kiss already, like just make it out.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: And I like want that, And I feel like that
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: was all performance, Like that was like the way they performed.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: It was like you're like, Okay, I like this more.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: I like this way. Mmm, this is good. Chris. Ever, no,
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: I mean this kind of brings me to It's not
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 2: a point that I don't know I was. I was
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: thinking about it because subtle plug, I guess, But like
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: I have been watching Maggie may Fish's Friend of the Cast,
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: her YouTube series on the works of Zack Snyder and
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: how Zack Snyder and I think Christopher Nolan falls into
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: this exact same thing, and I've seen this criticism of him. Coincidentally,
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: they also have done Batman's whatever. But like Christopher Nolan
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: is a profoundly sexless director, Like his work features couples
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: but only at the worst moment of their entire lives.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: And it's just like for all of the heteronormative couples
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: you see in his movies over and over and over,
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: it's profoundly there's no intimacy in it. Really that isn't
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: rooted in trauma. And Zack Snyder's film canon is really
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: similar to the point where it's definitely not in this movie.
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: But I think that each of them have each done
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: one sex scene. I know Zack Snyder's was Watchman and
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: it's so hard to watch, but like, just it's very
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: bizarre like these and they both did sexless Batman movie
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: that are rooted in you know, mommy girlfriend, trauma. It's like,
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: just let a woman direct something, please, for the love
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: of God, It's just so strange. That's just more of
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: an observation. It's I don't know, just the most traumatic
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: moments of a relationship are all that gets the worst,
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: which is why it's like they if he was trying
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: to write in a cute moment that sort of hit
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: the cutting room floor for two other characters, it falls
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: completely felt flat, and it's confusing because you're like, Christopher
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: Nolan can't do something that's just like kind of cute.
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: He does not have the skills. Well, kind of going
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: back to Ariadne, where in my list of like very
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: bare minimum things this movie does that are like I
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: guess not negative and its like representation of women, but
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: like again bare minimum or like neutral I wrote down
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: in my notes. Well, at least Ellen Page's character isn't
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: poised as the romantic interest for any of the men,
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: because again I did not interpret like the movie attempting
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: to push her and Joseph Gordnon Levett together at all.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: Curious about what our listeners think, because yeah, I've heard
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: differing opinions on that where I don't know, I texted.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: I texted people about it because I'm like, am I
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: totally misreading this? Or and then some people were like, no,
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: I thought I was supposed to think that, and then
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: other people were like never picked up on it. I
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: wonder I would be curious if there is like if
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: previous drafts of this movie were kind of pushing it,
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: because it seems like what we have might possibly be
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: remnants of something else. That's my theory.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: I downloaded this script, Brag, and while I did not
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: read it because it is eight thousand pages long, no
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: thank you, I did do like control f to find
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: if the word kiss appears in the script, because I
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: wanted to see if that scene where he where like
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: Joseph Gordon love It's like give me a kiss quick,
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: it'll distract them or whatever, if that is in the script,
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: and it does not appear to be. I read that
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: scene and that's not even in the script. So that
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: either just got thrown in on that day of shooting
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: or something, or you know.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: Like the Red Mystery.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think I think maybe it's just that
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: like that got wedged in at the last moment.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: We're just like Christopher put in something, put in something flirty,
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: like this is the least flirty movie I've ever seen, Christopher,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: and then he's like, make someone kiss it. I don't
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: know how a joke.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: It's like, women won't want to see this movie unless
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: there's a kiss in it, so throw in a kiss.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: God damn it, Chris.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: Your movies aren't flirty enough. And he's like, oh rats,
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: Like it's just I mean, no one's coming to Christopher
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: Nolan for like even a compelling love story, like just
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: it's just not why we show up for him. We
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: keep showing up because of Hans Zimmer.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: Possibly the other bare minimum thing I wrote down as
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: it pertains to Ellen Page's character, which is more syllables
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: than Ariadne. But I don't, I can't. I keep not
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: being able to say that name, Ariadne.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's an unusual name, and it's also it
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: is so like Maul and Ariadne are so freshman year
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: in film school name choices. It kills me. So yeah.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: But anyway, the other like bare minimum thing is at
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: least the male characters around her notice and acknowledge that
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: she does a good job. Yes, there's a few different
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: lines of dialogue that I wrote down where Cobb says
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: to Arthur, he says, I've never seen someone pick it
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: up so fast about Ellen Page. At one point Cobb says,
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: kind of apropos of nothing. He's just like a terrific work.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: By the way, Yeah that is nice. And then right
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: before she gets recruited Michael Caine, Cobb says like I
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: need someone who's as good as Cob is, like I
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: need someone who's as good as I was, And Michael
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: Kaine's like, I have someone even.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: Better or I have someone better. Quick recommendation. If you
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: haven't ever seen Michael Caine's acting lesson tape from the eighties.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: On you the blink, the don't blink you never blink?
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: Doink? There it is like very funny and also like
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: low key, kind of helpful. I and now every time
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: I'm on camera, I'm like, blink with intention, Jamie you
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: you heard the man wow, blink with intention. And so
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: whenever Michael Kaine blinks, it's at a moment where his
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: character is feeling vulnerable. Always I always notice, imagine that
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: in this movie for fourteen seconds.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, and too bad. He loves Brexit.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah so whoopsies, he loves Brexit. He hates blinking, and
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: that's just this unfortunate truth. But yeah, no, I agree.
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: I was a little leery on the I've never seen
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: someone pick it up so fast, because I that like,
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 2: it didn't cross the line, fortunately, but sometimes I worry
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: about like kind of like when a woman joins the
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: squad and they're like, wait a second, she can do something.
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: I'm shocked, but it did, but it kind of stayed
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: on the other side of the line of like they
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 2: were genuinely impressed that anyone could pick this up so quickly.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: They appreciated her work, and then when she made the
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: suggestion to go down deeper, they take that suggestion seriously
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: and they take it on and no one else takes
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: credit for it, and just like yeah, yeah, like she
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: Christopher Nolan is such a strange writer where I'm like,
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: did he just treat like He's just like, oh, just
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: treat this character with the you would treat a male character.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: But then no, because she has to do the emotional
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: baggage stuff. I don't know. I don't know.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: I have a couple other things that are not at
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: all gender specific but that I thought were very funny.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: Go for it.
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: This movie only works under the assumption that the idea
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: that you have during a dream. If you have a
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: dream and you come up with an idea of an
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: idea happens in your dream, that that idea will stick
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: with you under any circumstance, and it might change everything
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: about who you are as a person. Because, like was
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: watching this movie, I was like, this would be like
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: if I woke up from a dream where in the
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: dream I started a podcast about the movie Inception, and
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: then I wake up and I'm like, oh my gosh,
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: I have to start a podcast about the movie Inception.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: I you know, I had a dream about that, so
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: I guess I have to do it, Like.
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, you are just behold into every lark
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: that you're subconscious, like imagine the most bizarre dreams you've
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: ever had, and then being like, well I guess, then,
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: well I guess I have to do it. Like I
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 2: used to have this really scary recurring dream about Bob
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: Saggat on a trampoline where he would be like, get
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: on the trampoline, Get on the trampoline. Like it was
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 2: just a recurring dream I have when I was a kid,
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 2: when they used to be re airing a lot of
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: reruns of Full House on ABC Family, but it would
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: just be Bob Saggot on a trampoline in my backyard.
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: We didn't even have a trampoline, but he was like,
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 2: get on the trampoline, Get on the trampoline. And I
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 2: would always be like if something if I get on
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: this trampoline, something horrible's gonna happen. It's like if I
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: woke up and I was like, I have to get
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: a trampoline and I need to get Bob Saggott to
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: your stat and investigate this.
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, now is as good a time as any
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: to announce that I am going to start a podcast
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: about the movie Inception I had a dream about. I
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: have to do it.
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: I am literally Bob Saggett is on a Spirit Airlines
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: flight here right now to find out what was going
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: on there. And that I mean, it's like, I know,
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: I know that dreams can be very profound, but the
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: assumption that all dreams are profound is ridiculous and very funny.
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 2: That's also, okay. A quick thing I had was that
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 2: like the Killian Murphy thing, the whole the corny levels
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: of him holding his his like evil dad's hand and
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: he's the evil son, and the dad is like, I
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 2: wish you just were a different evil than me, and
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: he's like he's just like Rich boy crying. You're just
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: like I felt it the first time I watched the movie.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: I feel it now. I'm like, I could not care
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: less about whatever is happening here with the billionaires. And
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: they're like, how do we approach an oil fortue? You're like,
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: I don't care? Who is this character? Like, oh my god?
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 2: Could we just like let Ellen Page do something else?
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: Like uh yeah, Well. One of my other things exactly
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: it's in every movie, is it turns out well. One
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: of the other things I wrote down was inception is
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: what like uber rich people do with their money to
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: get richer, because like Sido buys an airline so that
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: they can incept Killian Murphy like, why not just use
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: the joke? And yeah, He's like, huhu, it would be
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: I just thought it would be cleaner if I just
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: bought the whole airline, which, by the way, I hope
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: that flight attendant.
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 2: They said that they bought her. First of all. They
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: said we had to buy a flight attendant, as if
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: it was just like something people do.
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: It's like, I hope they paid her. Well, I like
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: why wouldn't Why would they? Like now she has dirt
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: on you guys, Like why wouldn't you just have one of.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 2: The other She saw that story to variety right. Also,
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: they live in la I don't know why I found
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 2: that detail to be obnoxious, But at the end they're like,
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 2: you're about to land in La Baby, Like I'm like
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: Leona DiCaprio's is like landing at his house, like what
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 2: are you what?
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: And then he's like, got off the plane at lax
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: and with a dream.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: And a color. Welcome to the land of famouscess. Is
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 2: he gonna fit in? We don't know?
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: Something something about Stiletto's.
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's like every school dance I ever
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: went to that song when you play it like volume
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 2: deafening at some point, the butterfly flu that's like Leader
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: DiCaprio reunated with his children, nodding his head like yeah,
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: moving his hips like yeah.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: I'm sweating so much. Okay, So Sido he buys the airline,
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: and it's like, why not just use that money to
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: like bribe Fisher or buy him out of the company,
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: or buy some stock in his company, do something like
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: why are you going through all the someone of doing
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: something that does not sound like it would work at all.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: Inception does not sound like a thing that would work
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: even a little bit, But the movie's so hell bunt
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: on convincing you that it is like the most effective.
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: Like there's like an idea is the most effective parasite ever.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: Like it's just you can't kill an idea.
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 2: You have to admit. That's just like Christopher Nolan fully
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 2: jerking himself off, like being like ideas are I mean,
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: I see what he's saying, and I understand the reality
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: under it of like a an idea can be very pervasive.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: But I feel like he's being like the Dark Night
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: changed your life, right, Like I just I don't know,
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: it's it's all, it's all annoying. I really enjoy watching
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: this movie, but it's also so annoying. It's such a
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 2: weird that's such a Christopher Nolan thing where you're like
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: I'm having a great time, I'm deeply annoyed. I'm like,
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: how dare you make me enjoy this movie.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: I also think that at the end, when after Killian
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: Murphy has been incepted and he decides to like break
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: up this multi billion dollar empire, I like to think
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: that he just like starts an Etsy store selling his
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 1: like cross stitches or something, like that, Oh, I know.
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: Like what happens to these people afterwards? Like I don't.
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, if I were Ellen Page, I would just
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I have no allegiance to these people. I'm
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 2: gonna just write a tell all, sell it to random
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 2: House for a million billion dollars. Like see you, this
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 2: guy killed his wife. Everyone's saying he killed his wife,
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 2: and guess what, it's true, like he fully did. This
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 2: movie is weird, but it's fun. I also appreciate. I
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: mean again, it's like I think that with white male
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 2: o tour culture, the negatives outweigh the positives. But to
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 2: give Christopher Nolan the smallest bit of credit, I appreciate
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: that there was not a sequel to this movie because
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: I know people wanted it, and I can't imagine something
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: more exhausting than a sequel to Inception. I'm like, I
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 2: don't want a single, I don't want another detail about this.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: Let's just bury it. We're done. I am curious about Tenant.
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: I want to see John David Washington and Robert Pattinson together.
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: I know, yeah, I hate that I want that, but
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: I do want that. I do I do we fully
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: recognize the At what cost? Of this movie as such
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: an all time high. The fact that Christopher Nolan was
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: pushing and seemed like, imagine taking a global pandemic this personally,
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 2: Like it's just absurd. That said, I really hope And
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: the whole time, I'm like, I just like would love
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: to see this movie at a drive in, Like this
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: would be a great drive in movie. I would happily
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 2: see this movie at a drive in. Can't we just
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 2: do that? I don't know? Yeah, Like how deeply selfish
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 2: and like just uncaring do you have to be to
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: be like, yeah, someone might die to see Tenant? Like
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: what are you doing with your life? Don't see Tenant
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 2: in theaters? See it safe? Please and let us know
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 2: what you think, because it's been getting pretty good reviews.
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, he makes good movies.
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately he's like it's a Tenant, it's a palindrome. I'm like,
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 2: I get it, I get it.
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: He's so he's a genius.
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: He really, I mean is not, but like he he
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: wants you to think, right, No, it's like he's really
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: just like some of his movies feel like he's screaming
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: that he's a genius, like into your mouth, like he's
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: I will I mean, perhaps to Hans Zimber on this score.
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: It is an iconic score. And we have we have,
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: we culturally have not escaped this farting noise in movies
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: to this day. Ever since Inception came out, the fart
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: noise is now cannon and we can't get rid of it.
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: So it's as ubiquitous as Leonardo DiCaprio being clothed in
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: bodies of water.
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: What is going on? I just men need to stop,
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 2: they need to stop. I will I will again just
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 2: give a shout out to Emma Thomas, who is Christopher
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 2: Nolan's spouse but also has produced all of his movies.
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: And I would say, well, actually I wouldn't say, wow,
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 2: I give credit to a man right now. It's ruining
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 2: my life. But I reas listened to friend of the
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 2: Cast Krarina Longworth's season of You Must Remember This about
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 2: Polly Platt, which I highly recommend to our listeners. It
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: is all about poly Platt is like this iconic producer
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 2: who her skills were repeatedly discredited and buried because she
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: was always working for men. And so it is kind
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: of this incredible investigation of her life that just reveals
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 2: exactly how much she did, and she was married for
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: a while to Peter Bugdanovich, and like how much credit
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 2: he took from her and all of his good movies
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 2: were with her, So what does that tell you? Et cetera. Yeah,
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: and Isaac brought up as we were watching this, He's like, Oh,
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 2: I wonder if like Emma Thomas is potentially a similar
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 2: Polly Platt story because she's pretty exclusively produced Christopher Nolan movies.
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: But we don't really hear her spoken about much. It's
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: not a name that is like brought up. I mean,
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: given how much she's done and how many billions of
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: dollars movies she's produced have generated, I'd like to know
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 2: more about her. I'm curious. And also being married to
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: Christopher Nolan sounds terrible, like I don't but maybe it isn't.
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: He seems to want you to die.
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: He seems to want to kill you. Let's hear more
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 2: about No, but I am very curious. I want to
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 2: like give her her due she has. I mean, yeah,
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 2: she's produced quite literally all of it, and a few
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: non Christopher Nolan movies, but for the most part they
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 2: seem to work together. Yeah, in any case shout out
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 2: to her, this is I wouldn't say it's a diverse cast.
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 2: I think that, like, there are non white important cast members,
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 2: but for the most part, they are relegated to the
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 2: sidelines with I guess the exception of Ken Wantonabe, who
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 2: I think he does such an iconic Oh. I just
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: love how he delivers a line where I forget what
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: line it is, but there's like one line where he
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: also like he's on the floor and he has to
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 2: turn over his shoulder and he's like, this is a dream,
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 2: isn't it.
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: Or it's like it's just so because he's on the
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 1: rug and he's like, my face is in polyester right now,
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: not wool.
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 2: There's a whole monologue about a rug and it's so
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 2: it's so goofy, but he is great. I mean, that's
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 2: a this is I mean, and the extended Nolan universe
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 2: is a very very heteronormative white universe, and this is
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 2: certainly no exception to that. And this is something that
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: we have an ongoing conversation about on this show is
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 2: that otur culture in general is so white dominated and
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 2: so male dominated, and Christopher Nolan has perpetuated that in
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 2: or and is complicit and that in many ways down
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 2: to I don't know, I mean, I would I would
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 2: recommend that that people check out that Polyplat mini series
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 2: because they're really I mean, we all know that women
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 2: and people of color are constantly erased from the narratives
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 2: of I mean of quite literally everything but pertaining to
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 2: our show, to to movies, and just like hearing the
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 2: details of that and just like the psychological trauma that
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 2: comes with that from being repeatedly erased and discredited. It's
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 2: a wonderful series, and we're gonna see Tenant, but we
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 2: don't have to, Like, we don't have to. I'm really
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 2: struggling with how much I want to see Tenant. It
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: makes me feel bad.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: Same.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: Ah.
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: Well, well, we've had a discussion already a bit about
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 1: whether or not this movie passes the Bechdel test. I
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 1: think if you were I'm gonna say no, if you
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: were just looking at it on on paper, you could
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 1: argue that it technically passes because there is that small
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: interaction between Mal and Ariadne, where like Mal's like, what
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: are you doing here? My name is I know who
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: you are. What are you doing here? I'm just trying
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 1: to under stand, bub blah blah, and that goes on
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 1: for a little while. But it is, like you said, but.
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: It's projection, mall.
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 1: It's projection, mall. So she's not even real for the
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: rest of that scene, she's like quoting stuff that Cobb
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: had told her. I would say, considering the context of
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 1: this exchange, I would give it a no. I think again,
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: it's like a technical pass. But yeah, factoring in the context,
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 1: not a pass anymore.
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: I'm a hard No. I think this is a galaxy.
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 2: This is like Christopher Nolan, not that I think he
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 2: knows what the Bechdel test is. I would be shocked,
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 2: but I mean, prove me wrong, I guess. But yeah, no,
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 2: I think that he I mean no, I'm he does
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 2: not deserve to get away on a technicality here mm hmm.
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: It's a no, ye're for me? And how okay, let's go.
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 2: Let's go to the nipples. Nipples scale wow? Wow?
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so zero to five nipples based on how it
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 1: represents women's slash, how does it fare from an her
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: sexual feminist point of view? I'll give this I guess one,
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: maybe a half even.
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 2: I was gonna go half.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean there are there's a few very
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 1: like bare minimum things to like about the way Ariadni
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 1: is characterized, and that she's smart and capable and we
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: know what her job is and her team members appreciate
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: her and never call into question her skills or abilities
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 1: or anything like that. But again that's extremely bare minimum stuff.
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: And most of the time she is doing Cobb's emotional
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: labor for him, and she's being like, you need to.
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: I'm just absolving him for things at random, for things
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 2: he doesn't deserve to be absolved for.
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: Because plot, I mean, the fact that she picks up
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 1: on what he's going through, I think is also an
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: extremely gendered thing. It's not necessarily a negative trope.
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 2: But like right, but it's rooted in something right because.
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: Like the one woman on the team is the one
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 1: who's able to see that, like, hey, baby, the Cob
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 1: is being tormented by guilt, and it's like it's like,
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 1: come on, dude, like you there are other people around you,
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: Like don't you notice that your friend is like going
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: through something like you know that his wife, his wife died,
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 1: Like it's just baffling to me that it's like, well,
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: but of course the woman is the one to figure
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: it out anyway.
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 2: Right, like it is. In fact, that's that's negative for
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: everybody too, because it also just implies that the people
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: that Cob is with every day seem to have no
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: idea that he's under this intense psychological torture.
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 1: Yuseff is like administering the sedatives and stuff to enable
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: him to go under on his own time, right to
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 1: like be with his wife in dream world, Like how
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 1: does he not know what's going on?
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 2: Logically he should be the one to know, I think, right, Like,
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: logically he would be the person to pick up on this,
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 2: the closest access to Leo DiCaprio's actual brain chemistry. But
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 2: he's busy. He's an avatar, so I don't know.
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: So yeah, there there's some positives and negatives about Ariadne.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: And then when it comes to mal like woof, it's
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: but again it's like.
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 2: I think, like the worst of the worst in terms
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 2: of Christopher Nolan's gender problems.
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: For sure, And it's like, again, if you think about
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 1: it for two seconds, you realize that all of her behavior,
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 1: which is being framed by the movie as as like
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 1: villainous and and sabotaging.
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 2: And bad mall, it's mall A bit mall, Yeah.
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: MOI Mal, if you think about it for two seconds,
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 1: you realize, like, well, none of what she's doing is
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: her fault. She was gas lit and then everything else
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 1: is a projection, So like, we can't blame her for
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: what she's doing. But the movie very very very much
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 1: wants you to blame her for what she's doing. So
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: it's not good one half nipple. I guess I'll give
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: it to mal because she deserves I'll give it to
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 1: Marion Cotillard because she deserves better.
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah she does. She's I just I can't recommend her
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 2: work enough. I really like her. Same with Ellen Page.
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: God damn it, I love Alan Page.
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I'll give it a half as well for
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 2: at least the outlined sketch of a good female character
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 2: that was not followed through on, and also for not
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 2: murdering her. I really you couldn't ask for less. I
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 2: will say that this is I mean again, it's like
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 2: you don't want to hand it to it. But in
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 2: the context of Christopher and Nolan's career, the fact that
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 2: Ariane is not brutally murdered is somehow progressed for him,
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 2: and ugh, what I feel so grut, but like, and
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 2: this does seem to put him on some track to
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 2: treating his his female characters in ensuing movies, starting with
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 2: The Dark Knight where he's kind of trying to have
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 2: Catwoman be empowered and it doesn't work, but it's an attempt,
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 2: and like, I feel like Inception is kind of an
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 2: inflection point for him in terms of like making an
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 2: effort or at least recognizing that he cannot continue to
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: treat his female characters like this. Maybe Tenant will blow
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 2: up this theory, but it seems like at least around
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 2: this time, he starts to realize that, like, people are
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 2: not gonna stop giving you shit for this. You have
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 2: to find a more compell You need to just like
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 2: simply take women seriously. Imagine your wife has produced every
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 2: single movie, like right, how it's It's a bird. So
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 2: this is I I like, you know, white male a
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 2: tour culture is very frustrating, and I want to see Tenant.
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: So in conclusion, we're going to see Tenant.
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 2: In conclusion, we're gonna see Tenant, and honestly probably will
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 2: like it seems like people like it.
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm prepared to look.
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 2: God damn it. In conclusion, God damn it all to hell.
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: To quote Titan.
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: H, I'll be goddamned.
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 2: I think that's all I have to say. I don't know.
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 2: I'm so frustrated with myself. I'm like, I want to
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 2: say Tenant like stop, don't look.
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 1: We contain multitudes. We are multi dimensional female characters in
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 1: our own movies, in our own dreams. What if this
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: whole episode was a dream the whole time and we
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 1: wake up and we're like, fuck, we didn't even actually
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: record anything.
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 2: Uh So, you know, goddamn it all to hell, and
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 2: we love you. This has been the episode we Also,
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 2: you'll notice there wasn't a guest on this episode. It's
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 2: just just the two of us because I'm still trapped
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: in Wisconsin and we both felt guilty that we liked inception.
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: So in conclusion, you can follow us on all the
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 2: social media platforms. You can follow us on Twitter at
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 2: bexel Cast, Instagram at bexel Cast, subscribe tour Patreon aka Matreon,
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 2: where we will be doing get another exciting month of
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 2: I think we're going to be doing another Llen Page
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 2: classic this month.
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, oh yeah, so yeah. I pitched Sport Timber Sport timber,
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 1: which is which we're gonna cover, whip it and stick
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 1: it because all movies about.
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 2: I'm calling it it's timber.
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 1: It's timber because all movies about women's sports have to
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 1: have it in the title.
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 2: It's another baffling. It's a trope that's neither here nor there,
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 2: much like Leonardo DiCaprio underwatering clothes. It's neither here nor there,
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 2: but it's the thing for some reason.
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah true.
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 2: So anyways, you know, head over to the Matreon for that.
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. You can go to tea public dot com
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 1: slash the Bechdel Cast for our merch and uh, you know,
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 1: give us a little rate and review. Why don't you
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: on you know, Apple Podcasts or wherever you find your
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 1: podcast and otherwise, just be really careful that you don't
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 1: get incepted because obviously it's going to change your entire life,
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 1: because the ideas that you have in dreams will change
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 1: you forever.
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 2: I was like to conclude, rah rah, like, uh, you know,
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 2: I hope you're hope you're doing well, take care of yourself,
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: help other people, yes, and and you know, at least
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 2: feel a little bit bad when you watch Tenant.
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 3: Bye,