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JFK Assassination - Ep_ 288 - Adventures In Babysitting · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

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Section one oh seven of the Fair Use Act of nineteen seventy six provides protection
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to use copyrighted material for research, analysis, education, and commentary purposes.
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We hear at Loose Moose Productions reserve that right now, on with the show.
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Here's Joe B and the Triple b Hey, Andrew Deane. How's things
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in Texas? Everything is going to hail down here in Dustice, jes Joy
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and Joey Joey and then Joey Yummy and Joey Rock, John Ye Joy and
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Joey Joey and Joe and Jomomy and Joey Rock, Joggy Yo Shine. Here,
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how is John? And here we go? And here we go?
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What's up? Everybody? Welcome to the show. This is episode number two
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hundred and eighty eight. That's right. It is the oldest running podcast on
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the JFK Assassination. Often duplicated. But what's that saying? Joe? Never
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repeated? Often imitated, but never duplicated. There we go real quick,
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Joe, I found something else? Would you like to hear it? It
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kind of resembles this, John D d d angde It's close check this out?
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Was it? George D? Jack J. James James d Eugenio High
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Myssic Mark. Anyway, anyway, what's up everybody? All right, Joe,
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let's go say hi to all of our friends who are hanging out in
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the comments section with us. We have to thank John right off the bat
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for his super chat before we even got a word out of our mouth.
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And thanks John. What's up? South to West is in the house,
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Clauding and you Dean hanging out knocking back some loom stars. Moose Heaven is
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in the house. That's right, that's right, nothing like a loose moose
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run a wild on your baby. Alpha sixty six. Mike's in the house,
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Jack, what's up? Bungled is in the house? Trey is here,
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Sally is here, Christ Depawed everyone Hello Sally. Let's see Chauncey Holt.
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Colleen the Rocket Queen is in here. Oh boy, we are in
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the house tonight, all right, Yes, sir, and uh, Mike
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and I were were talking some some smack to each other because we are both
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big hockey fans. And don't if you know this, The Rangers, New
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York Rangers have started seven and zero, and mister Mike and a lot of
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fans people here might be fans of the Dallas Stars. We're the number one
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seed in the Western Conference. They could meet, so very well, that's
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exciting stuff in the world of ice hockey. There's not many hockey fans in
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the jfk A community, but there's no hockey game tonight, sir so.
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We last time we recorded, there was and I missed it for this,
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this thing of ours, because you know what, it's an important thing.
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We got well. First of all, off the bat, we need to
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watch a little something here, Joe, that one of our listeners was kind
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enough to send us because we asked for it last last show because we couldn't
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find it anywhere, and let me look it up here, so I make
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sure Jay Summers from down the Thunder from down Under he sent us he found
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the Perry Russo clip when he's driving a cab around getting interviewed, so real
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quick. I wanted to play that right off the bat so we can comment
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on it and get that out of the way and move on to the topic
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of tonight's show. So, Joe, are you ready for this? I
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am all right. Hopefully this goes well and everyone can hear it. But
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oh, I see Roger in the house what's up Rose? Roger? All
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right, let's see if this works, Joe. Hopefully everyone can hear it.
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I tried this before. It seemed like everything was going okay. But
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let's try it again. Fantasy and lies. He was not investigating any facts.
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His only purpose was and he stated it pointedly. He said, I'm
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gonna take Garrison out of this. He says, you're going down with them.
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He said, if you want to go, he says, you go
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with him because he says you're finished. He says, now there is a
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way out. And I said, what would that be? He said,
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you go over to Biloxi, Mississippi. He said, we have a motel
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over there. He says, you're to walk in the motel, Clayshaw will
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be in there, and you're to walk out in state on television that you
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do not know Clayshaw, you have never seen him, and that he was
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never Unbeknownst to NBC's investigative reporter Walter Sheridan, Perry Russo had been pre wired
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for sound by Jim Garrison to record their conversation. Stay that Oswall was never
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at Dave Ferry's apartment. And number four is you know nothing about any Kennedy
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plotters, or any plot to kill the president of the United States. And
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I said, if I do do that, what do you suppose What happened
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to me in New Orleans? Kerry Russo was amazing witness. You have to
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remember that the defense and the federal government, anyone interested in destroying Jim Garrison's
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case, had two years to work on Terry Raymond Russo. So. I
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said, I wouldn't be able to even live in New Orleans. He said,
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what state are you interested in living in? And I was caught off
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guard by this, and so I said, well, I said, I've
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always been interested in California. She said what city. I said, I
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don't know, La Los Angeles. I said, it has always been the
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city of dreams. Worked on one of the main witnesses, Perry Russo,
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offered him a job in an assurance company in California. I didn't go to
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Biloxi because what Walter Sheridan was asking me to do was an absolute lie.
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Shaw was there, Ferry was there, Oswalt was there. Garrison or subsequent
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to this, indicted him for tampering and obstructing justice of caught. That indictment
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fell on federal court he never went to trop What do you think about that,
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Joe? That is very interesting. Uh, there seems to be some
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resentment towards mister Garson there. No, there seems to be some resentment toward
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mister Walter Sheridan there because he uh, very clearly states that he basically Sheridan
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tried to bribe him into saying that he didn't see Oswalt at Faery's house.
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And you know, you're balling when you're driving a cab and they paint your
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freaking name on the side of the hood. You know what I'm saying.
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He must have been a hell of a cab driver, re United cab.
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This was the early nineties. Bro, Wow, he's born. Yeah,
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So here he is, you know, twenty five years after the fact,
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contradicting himself once again. So what do we believe about Perry Russo? You
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know, he says one thing, he says another. It's quite possible though,
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that he was compromised or blackmailed into saying certain things at certain times to
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certain people, scared of being persecuted for perjury perhaps or wanting to do better
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himself or get him off off the hook of other things. But like I
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said, in the last show. You know, it's just a sad story
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for Perry Russo all around, to go from you know, studying law at
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Tulane University to breaking into somebody's house in nineteen seventy one and stealing eight thousand
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dollars and ending up as a cab driver and then but yeah, that's that's
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the Perry Reussal story. And thanks again to Jay Summers for sending it in.
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I remembered it fondly and it did not disappoint. And I see someone
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with a great name in the comments, Freddy Ruger. Poor Grewbert can't air
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his BS stories because he didn't pay his Internet bill. Man. That sucks,
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Joe. I mean, you even have internet and the cat skills,
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bro, he couldn't steal Wi Fi in the middle of LA. I mean,
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come on, come on, come now, come come, But anyway,
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you're muted and nobody can hear you. There you go. What were
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you saying, Joe? I said, it must have been all the places
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in LA must have been password protective. Yeah, yeah, I like that,
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Freddy Ruger. It's almost as good as this guy I follow on Twitter.
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It's like the best fake name ever. What is it have you ever
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read or watched The Lord of the Rings. Yes, you know the character
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Bilbo Baggins. You know the hobbit, Yes, Bilbo Baggins. His name
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on Twitter is Dildo Gaggins and it makes me lo o l every time I
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see it pop up in my feet. I don't call me juvenile, but
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it cracks me up. What is he talking about? What does he tweet
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about? All kinds of stuff X about. Yeah, he's a good follow.
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I'll have to check that out. I think it's a lot of Oklahoma
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City stuff, conspiracy stuff, you know, all the good stuff. Oh,
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I watched Speaking of I did watch The American Nightmare this week? Did
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you? I did? And I actually watched it the Saturday, which was
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tomorrow, a week from tomorrow, and I watched the first episode. My
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girlfriend was pissed that I was watching a Netflix show without her, so I
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had to rewatch episode. What I was like, you don't like true crime
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because then you get, like, you know, nightmares. But wow,
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that's crazy. I think maybe we should let the audience one more week before
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you give spoilers on it. But wow, it's up to you. But
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yeah, no, we'll just let it ride. People watching it if they
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want. I don't want to ruin it for anybody, but yeah, if
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you want to go show three hours of your time, you will not be
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disappointed. American Nightmare on Netflix. Yeah. I think even a little less
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than might be like forty to fifty minutes, so you could blow through it
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in three hours. Yeah, and it's a it's a great three hours to
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blow through. Yeah, all right, Joe. So let's hop right into
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our fum fucked Hold on a second, hold on, hold on, I
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got an idea. Let's see if this works. Fund fucked f day.
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Did that come through like weird sounding? Yes, like someone uh nat ready
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for fun fucked for people? There you go. How about that? Pretty
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sweet Roger might have to do a little a little jingle, you know,
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Roger doesn't jangle. Roger rocks well a rock general. I know. Yes,
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Hi, tiny dancer, we see you in now, now you're late.
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It's okay, we forgive all right. So the further our fun Fact
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Friday, We're coming back to sweet Home, Virginia and an area that I'm
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from in Frederick County. And this is about the O'Connell's. A fellow by
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the name of Irving Senior and his son, Irving Junior. Now, these
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two fellows both had a rich love of history. Irving Senior would buy and
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save countless homes in Winchester and Frederick County and a time when tearing them down
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seemed more economical. He believed progress didn't have to mean just He loved the
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theater and would perform at the Old Bark Mill Theater, which was housed in
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the Old Sumac Mill at the corner of Wolf and Braddy Streets. His son,
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Irving Junior, was a child prodigy, maybe even a genius. He
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attended Harvard he mastered a three year Latin course in three months. He became
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a marine and went to war in Korea, and in nineteen sixty five he
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moved to Los Angeles and started a newspaper distribution company. He was the first
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business ever to distribute a brand new magazine that had just came out, called
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Rolling Stone. Then no one else would take a chance one. Irving Junior
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returned to Winchester with his wife and new daughter, Joanna in nineteen seventy nine.
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He helped run his father's business and helped maintain the various historic properties that
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they owned around Frederick County. One of those was Harmony Hall near Strasburg,
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Virginia. This is where Irving Junior would live with his family until two thousand
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and four. Irving Senior died in eighty four and Irving Junior died in two
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thousand and eight. So these guys don't get enough credit around here for helping
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save a lot of the history around town. So that is your fun factor,
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Friday, and I also wanted to throw this out there. It's a
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little quote from Hunter S. Thompson, folks words to live by. We
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are all alone. We are all born alone, we will all die alone,
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And in spite of true romance magazines, we shall all someday look back
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on our lives and see that, in spite of our company, we were
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alone the whole way. I do not say lonely, at least not all
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the time, but essentially and finally, always alone. This is what makes
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your self respect so important. And I don't see how you can respect yourself
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if you must look in the hearts and minds of others for your own happiness.
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Hunter S. Thompson from the book The Proud Highway. Folks, I
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highly suggest you read, read, read, read brilliant minds of the twentieth
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century and these poets who are around back in the sixties at the time of
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the jfk assassination. So that brings us happiness in yourself, that's right.
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So that brings us to the topic of tonight's show, which is Adventures in
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Babysitting, which refers to all of the people and entities who were watching Oswald
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all throughout his life life. Yeah, we're going to take this kind of
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what's it called, Well, I was gonna say, like from like an
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overview of looking at the Yeah, we're looking at this from sixty feet in
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the air. But were Cooper, So we're going to look at this chronologically.
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That's the word I was looking for. So the earliest time that we
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could possibly put Oswald around someone who had ties to the c i A would
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be of course, see if the chack you guess who would be the first
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one, chot Well. Freddie said he came here for the Elizabeth Shoe movie
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that was last week. There's no there's no Theater of the Mind tonight.
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We have a few pages we could read still, I guess a lot of
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pages we could read still, And mister Gaston, my Southern accident went over
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real, well with all the audience in a live chat. Well, the
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answer is David Ferry yesterday. We can establish that through his contact with Oswald
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in the Civil Air Patrol in the mid fifties and nineteen going back to nineteen
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fifty five. And then young Oswald decides to join the Marine Corps. And
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where did they send him? Joe, the Marine Corps? Yeah, touch
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up Pan Where in Japan, specifically Sugi which is the base that was one
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of the homes of the U two and allegedly other shananigans. Yeah, and
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who controlled the flight of the YouTube? Joe say, that would be the
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C to the I to the AA Olia. Had to drag it out of
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him, folks, but we got there eventually, the c I A.
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Okay. Then Joe, we have Oswald getting out of the Marine Corps,
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going home for two short days and then hopping on a boat and heading for
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Russia. Okay. Now, once Oswald gets to Russia, the first one
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of the first places that he goes is the United States Embassy, where he
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allegedly tries to rescind his United States citizenship and defect to Russia. Well,
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there he is met by State Department cover people working in the embassy Richard Schnyder
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and I can't remember the guy's first name, but it's McVicar. And then
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while he is there, he is interviewed by what was her name, but
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Patricia McMillan Johnson Johnson McMillan, and she's a CIA mockingbird, one of the
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most loyal mockingbirds. Okay, so then that's one of the last CIA quote
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contacts, at least that we know about, unless one of his Russian friends
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was a double agent over there while Oswald is in Russia. Now we explored
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that on the ship back from Russia, the CIA had activated this guy.
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This fella right here, a handsome fellow, James Herbert Martin and his family
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were in Europe. They are on the manifest of the Essence Masdam coming back
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to the United States with the Oswalds. Picture on the right is James Herbert
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Martin. The picture on the left is a fellow that looks a hell of
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a lot like James Herbert Martin. Two years prior to the picture on the
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right, chilling out on the sun deck of the Ess Madsdown on the exact
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same ship and cruise as the Oswald's were coming back from Russia. Now we'll
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come back to this fellow here in a little bit, we promise, we
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promise. Now, when the Oswald's return to Dallas, the Dallas area,
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Joe, they are, they actually meet a couple of people that we're gonna
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hear from right now. All we met the Oswald's about in the summer of
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last nineteen sixty two, when we heard that there was a young couple.
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We were right from Russia, and we were in very difficult financial conditions.
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So a friend of mine and myself drove the fourth Worth and found this tenement
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house where he was living near Montgomery Ward and were giving either crib or playpen
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or close to Marina. For instance, people were so wonderful that I believe
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she had close two hundred dresses in her wardrobe, and there were nice things.
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They weren't all worn out things, but they were just nice things that
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people had too many and they shared. In fact, that was one of
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the biggest objections of Oswald, because it made very difficult for him. He
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could never provide Marina with a hundred dresses, but rather difficult to discuss people's
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married life because what you see outside is not always goes on when you don't
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see the people, but from what we knew, they weren't very happy,
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but for some particular reason, they both didn't want to leave each other,
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and we found out that Oswald was beating Marina well. Marina struck to me
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a few times about their actual married life, and she was in a way
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complaining that he was not aggressive enough, and he was not interested enough in
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sects, and quite often he would prefer reading or prefer just to do more
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work than attend to this. And the other hand, with her, it
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was quite important and she was she definitely felt luck of it, so that
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could be also one of the problems. He teach him about sex, and
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she teaches him about other little different things about how he works, that he
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does not tend to this, and he definitely tend to that. And all
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these things should never be done in front of people, because it's the worst
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thing you can do to your husband to say something publicly, even with the
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friends or the people he is supposed to know. But especially sex. I
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don't think that should never be mentioned, and that could be a very big
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point with him. He was humiliated mind definitely. I had the impression that
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he was in love with Marina and that on his side, there was no
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unhappiness. What's the thing I remember now that he did not want Marina to
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learn English, maybe because he was an an intensely jealous person. He did
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not want want Marina to communicate with other people. Well, one of the
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things struck me quite odd. Finally we were talking to him, he was
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forbidding Marina to smoke outright. I was trying to explain to him that this
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is modern times. Women do smoke, providing the smoke moderately. There's no
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harm in it at all. The worst thing he can do is forbid her
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smoking. And I believe I convinced him to permit Marina to smoke, which
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was very happy. And she said once that yes she smokes, and it's
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all right. Then all of a sudden we dropped by one evening to visit
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them, and then she went in the kitchen and I she came back quite
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upset. I said, what happened? He just took cigarette out of my
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mouth and put it out on my shoulder. What happened? Actually, you
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know that I was standing there on the balcony and my wife and Marina were
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looking at the rifle which was inside of a closet, and Marina said,
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to my wife, look at that idiot. He has a rifle here instead
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of instead of buying food or necessities for our home, you know, he
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got a rifle. And that's what I just overheard. Vision. But I
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actually did not even look in the closet, you know, And it seemed
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to me like such a ridiculous idea for Osbald to buy a rifle when he
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needed money so desperately, you know that what was just a big joke,
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you know, So we all start laughing how crazy it is. And then
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at a clear sky sure had a peculiar sense of you more sometimes he said,
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did you take any chance patch shot at Walker? And we all laughed
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at it like a great big joke, like nobody thought anything of it it
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all because we never thought that anything like that could happen. And later on
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from reading the papers, we heard it that's exactly what happened, all right,
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Folks there you heard some comments from George and Jean de Morinshield of interest
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in this little clip. You hear that the de Morninshields actually met the Oswalds
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in the summer of sixty two. And this is right after they returned from
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the USSR. So they didn't just meet in you know, early sixty three.
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They had known each other from the summer previously. They just didn't meet
27:36
at this Magnolia party with all these other white Russians. So that's very interesting.
27:41
And you know the way they talk about the controlling behavior of Ozwald.
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He didn't want Marina to talk Russian, didn't want her to smoke, even
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though she ridiculed him about his sexual abilities and humiliated him, which never goes
28:00
well, if you're a dude, you know, and the woman you love
28:04
is ridiculing your sex life, I mean, that's probably not a good idea
28:11
for you know, a man's ego, I guess you could say. But
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so we know that de Mornshields were visiting the Oswald's when they were living in
28:26
Dallas in sixty two, and thus getting into early sixty three in this famous
28:33
Magnolia party with all where they meet all these other white Russians. George Bowie
28:40
is there de morn Shield's. There is Ruth Payne there for the Pains there.
28:48
Ruth Payne is allegedly at the Magnolia Party, and that is the handoff
28:57
from the Oarrenshields to the Pains occurred allegedly, you know, and yeah,
29:06
there were a ton of white Russians there, and we will get into some
29:08
of the white Russian. Well. I think the handoff happened after the Walker
29:12
shooting because they're in the interview. You hear George talking about this rifle seeing
29:19
in the Oswald's apartment and everything. And then right around that time is when
29:26
they left and went to went to Haiti in sixty three and handed off to
29:30
Ruth. Yeah, both because Oswald didn't get the rifle until late March sixty
29:37
three. Allegedly. Yes, I think this interview was in some time in
29:42
nineteen sixty four. I could be wrong, but yeah, the Demarrenshield and
29:52
Lee Harvey Oswald both left town, respectively, to Haiti for George and Warrenshield
30:00
and to New Orleans for Lee Harvey Oswald very shortly after the Walker incident.
30:06
And and you know, George and Morerisfield is kind of came back on that
30:15
a little bit later in life, right as he wrote his manuscript. And
30:21
I don't know if there was some guilt there, because I mean, George
30:23
Morenschfield was a really influential force on Lee, Harvey Oswald. He was allegedly
30:30
put in contact with Lee, and we'll get into who put them in contact,
30:37
but within the White Russian community, because the White Russian community was very
30:41
conservative, very anti Communist, and very wealthy, very wealthy, and yeah,
30:49
like you know George and Morriscal it was a former what was it.
30:56
It was like provost of something. He was an elite in Old Russia and
31:02
his family there you go, and he was once the Bolsheviks took over,
31:08
his family was kicked out and and he was pretty much, you know,
31:14
very anti Communism the the rest of his life. But he kind of went
31:19
back and forth in terms of sympathies, right because he did apply to be
31:26
intelligence and was denied because of alleged German sympathies. Before he thought he was
31:33
a Nazi. Basically, I tried to say, yeah, and I mean
31:40
there's so many things. I mean, him knowing that Jackie Kennedy's family.
31:47
But again that's officially. Nobody knows. Unofficially how connected he was to the
31:52
CIA, you know, as far as being a con contact or contract agent,
31:59
you know, necessarily need to be an official CIA employee, you know,
32:02
to have ties to the CIA and to work for them or do work
32:07
for them, or report to them about certain things. And they like to
32:10
have one degree of separation sometimes at least in George to Morrenshild's case and maybe
32:15
in Ruth Payne's case cutout. Yeah, but people you know you can trust,
32:23
yes, but if things go sideways, you also can say, hey,
32:28
he's not affiliated with us. You know, we thought that I was
32:30
a Nazi. We didn't have nothing to do with him. Yeah, but
32:35
the truth can sometimes be much stranger than fiction. Yeah. And when we're
32:42
talking about George de Morenshield, he actually admitted to Edward j Epstein that a
32:51
man by the name of James Walton Moore, who was the head of the
32:55
CIA office in Dallas, approached him to report back on Oswalt. Get close
33:06
to this guy and report back, because obviously the CIA was interested in the
33:15
Oswalts got the United States Marine defecting to Rush at the height of the Cold
33:21
War, threatening to expose secrets of your top secrets fyplanes, and you just
33:29
totally ignore him, like they're not there. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
33:32
And even though there might not be any official documents and records left from
33:37
that era. We all know that sometimes documents get destroyed, okay, or
33:45
lost or misplaced or misfiled or burned or whatever you want to call it.
33:51
But let me tell you a little something about Jay Walton Moore. In nineteen
33:57
seventy seven December, that is, he officially retired, allegedly officially from the
34:06
CIA because you could trust those times. Well, you know, they say,
34:10
once your CIA, you're ah CIA until you die. But they decided
34:16
to bless him with the Career Intelligence Medal. Now, folks, this thing
34:25
is no joke. Let me read you his commendation. Mister James Walton Moore
34:32
is hereby nominated for a Career Intelligence Medal in recognition of his substantial contributions to
34:39
the missions of the Federal Bureau of Investigation that's the FBI, the Office of
34:45
Strategic Services that's the CIA precursor of the USS, the Strategic Services Unit,
34:54
and the Central Intelligence Agency for more than thirty seven years. Jay Walton Jim
35:04
Moore spent most of his boyhood in Shantung Province, China, with his missionary
35:09
parents. Following graduation from Hardin Simmons University in nineteen forty, Jim joined the
35:16
FBI and served as a special agent in both Chicago and San Francisco. During
35:23
the latter assignment, he reported to pro communist elements in Chinatown. He reported
35:29
on sorry pro communist elements in Chinatown, and directed a US government panel to
35:36
interview aliens and US citizens returning home to ensure that enemy agents were not slipping
35:42
into the US as refugees or foreign businessmen. So, g Joe, that
35:49
sure as hell sounds a lot like what one could possibly suspect Lee Harvey Oswald
35:57
of doing. Right. You want to check on these these guys to make
36:00
sure they're not coming back as enemy agents for sure. And how do you
36:07
and how do you do that? You you befriend them, You befriend their
36:10
family, and you watch them, you spy on them, you talk to
36:15
them. Yeah, and you have dinners and in some cases in George warrenshield
36:20
and jeans helping the Oswalt family right paying for groceries and other things that that
36:28
they have alleged to have done in their relationship with Oswalt and Jay Walt.
36:32
Moore is the catalyst. Yeah, he literally through. I believe it's Max
36:40
Clark, one of the white Russians who was a lawyer that that helped de
36:52
Moarrenshield get in touch with the Oswald family, but we'll get into that later.
37:00
Yeah, it wasn't just George getting close to Lee Harvey Oswald, it
37:02
was Jean getting close to Marina as well. So obviously they were wanted to
37:09
watch both of them. Yeah, because you know, any woman that married
37:16
a you know, US national and comes back here with him is going to
37:21
be suspected of being a KGB agent or spy. So of course they wanted
37:27
to watch her as well. And Rob that that also kind of brings a
37:31
parallel to Ruster Michael Payne, right, because a situation where Michael Payne was
37:37
separated from Ruth even though they were in the same nursing home like fifty something
37:44
years later in California. Uh, you know, we can't shake this bitch.
37:49
She follows me everywhere. Yeah, and I only watched that documentary.
37:55
He was bitter too, he was he was bad man. Yeah, it
37:59
feels like he was kind of like losing it at that point and was like
38:00
I don't care, I'm gonna talk, and like Ruth was like she she
38:06
was still in charge of a faculties. Yeah, so Michael, that was
38:13
it. It depends. Oh, Rob, before you go, I saw
38:16
comment I wanted to talk about. Feel free to highlight it, but sure
38:22
before he moved on, do we know Ferry was c I A or was
38:25
he d I A. He wasn't officially either one, but that does not
38:32
mean that he could not have been a contract agent off the books, paid
38:37
cash. There's plenty of allegations. We just talked about the other show,
38:44
about the Robert Morris stories where he was making flights into Cuba to pick up
38:50
refugees, to bring up supplies, run guns, you name it, bombing
38:55
runs allegedly. So yeah, I think he was even alleged or one of
39:06
the guys that was was Bshars or one of the other people who were talking
39:09
about with these allegations of Garrison that said he was actually, uh like forced
39:15
into doing these type of activities because of blackmail. I think one of those
39:22
I think was I think David Ferry was a highly intelligent man who had a
39:25
very unique set of skills that the CIA took advantage of. I mean,
39:30
when you have a guy who, you know, a Barry Seals esque kind
39:34
of guy who, yeah, he might have been a homosexual, but he
39:37
wasn't like a flaming you know, momo not know what I mean? He
39:43
was not like movie. Yeah, no, he was played that clip of
39:47
him when the real David Fairry audio that some people stole later I won't mention
39:53
names or played later and said, oh this is new David Faery like audio
39:59
and guys said like five years ago. But regardless, I mean he is
40:02
a very rational, very smart thinker. When you listen to that, and
40:12
I look at him like he could have probably landed those planes on the shortest
40:16
runways, like better than some maybe CI or other military pilots, And I
40:23
think there you know, there's allegations that he returned. Was it Marcello from
40:30
the South American joble? Yeah, of course you don't know, But I
40:36
mean he he's the perfect kind of guy that is a perfect cutout to do
40:42
the CI. He's bidding but not be affiliated or they could not come back
40:46
to the CI in any form or fashion. It's a plausible deniability for this
40:51
guy. Hey, we'll pay you to do this, you do it.
40:52
You caught your screwed, you on your own type of thing. So that's
41:00
what we'd be thinking on that, yep. And Tiny Dancer said was Priscilla
41:06
McMillan Johnson wrote that novel with Marina. Of course, that is me and
41:10
Lee, and there's some interesting details surrounding that. And you know, when
41:21
we get to Marina later in this episode and talk about not only how Oswalt
41:24
was cheered towards intelligence, but also how Marina was and she, you know,
41:34
she in nineteen sixty four, was an early nineteen sixty five, was
41:38
writing this book with with Marina and had some really shady things in terms of
41:49
of course, she interviewed Lee back in Russia in nineteen fifty nine, and
41:55
we'll get into some of her shenanigans later. But in terms of Porter,
42:01
which was Marina's last husband, she was also involved with that as well.
42:09
All right, are you quite done? Good? Thank you? Back to
42:15
Jay Walton Moore Jim joined the OSS in November of nineteen forty four was commissioned
42:21
as an ensign usn R. His first assignment was in the kun Ming I'm
42:29
guessing that's a province in China, not yeah, never mind, where he
42:34
recruited and trained Chinese agents and to infiltrate Japanese lines. While in cum Ming,
42:40
he took a parachute training and on August seventeenth, forty five, jumped
42:46
into the Japanese internment camp at Wahisen Why are seeing why Heisen? Following the
42:57
evacuation of refugees to become he became the mission in ching Tao. Ching Tao,
43:04
like the beer, Like the beer, nice pronunciations, thank you.
43:07
I used to deliver that kind of beer, King Tao. Returning to the
43:10
US in December nineteen forty six, he was reassigned as Vice Consul redacted in
43:16
Darren, China. Soviet intrasigence, Soviet in transigence just sounds like me.
43:35
The Soviet intransigence I've just never heard of. That word prevented him from reaching
43:40
Darren, so he remained in ching Tao for an additional year until it transferred
43:45
as redacted in Calcutta, India, arriving there in April forty eight. Jim
43:52
then returned to the United States in October of nineteen forty nine and joined the
43:55
Contract Division of the Office of Operations of the CIA. Cd SLASHO policy favored
44:04
continuity, and Jim was no exception. From forty nine to fifty four he
44:07
served in the Houston Field Office, and from fifty four to seventy two,
44:12
as the resident officer in Dallas, the Contact Division evolved into the Domestic Contact
44:19
Service and a reallocation of resources raised the Dallas Resident Office to field office status.
44:28
Jim was the obvious choice for the job, and after nine months of
44:30
training in prep in Washington, where he performed admirably by the way, he
44:37
was assigned as chief of the new office, with responsibility also for resident offices
44:42
in TUSA, Houston, Austin, and oh by the way, Joe,
44:47
New Orleans, New Orleans. Jim's work in Dallas has been consistently excellent.
44:54
Under his leadership, in Dallas, complex has provided timely twenty foreign intelligence in
45:00
response to worldwide priorities and requirements. As an example, in April of nineteen
45:07
seventy five, the acting Director of Strategic Research committed Jim for quote outstanding performance
45:15
for urgent special efforts to obtain information, which resulted in a reduction of over
45:21
five hundred thousand in the intelligence communities estimate of the total number of Soviet military
45:28
personnel. Similarly, the Dallas Office has provided excellent support to the Clandestine Service.
45:35
And let me just add in there, okay, the Jay Walton Moore
45:43
is obviously part of the Soviet Russia Division as well. Okay, if he's
45:47
keeping tabs on the Soviet military personnel. Similarly to the Dallas office has provided
45:53
excellent supports that the Clandestine Service. In November of seventy six, the Chief
46:00
FR Division committed Jim and his staff for quote outstanding support from October seventy five
46:06
to seventy six in efforts which were indispensable to the establishment of FR assets in
46:13
Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana and in identifying and assessing prospective targets for recruitment.
46:25
So this guy is on the lookout, folks, Yes, is.
46:34
There are very few persons of potential consequence to the intelligence community in Texas whom
46:37
Jim Moore does not know, and little that he cannot accomplish. There on
46:42
behalf of community and agency requesters. The assassination of President Kennedy in Dallas in
46:47
November of sixty three, these subsequent allegations against the CIA, and Jim Moore's
46:53
long association with agency interests and programs in Texas have made him a repeated target
47:00
for media attention and scurrilous innuendo. Although under various forms of severe external pressure,
47:10
As a result, Jim Moore never lost his calm, cool demeanor and
47:16
has been absolutely dependable in adversary in adversity. An experienced professional, a true
47:24
gentleman, a delightful person, and an example to be emulated. Jim Moore
47:29
has been a real credit to the intelligence profession. As he approaches retirement,
47:35
he richly deserves recognition in the form of the agency's Career Intelligence Medal. Wow
47:45
Wow, so and Rob, I have a little bit on Jay Walton Moore
47:52
here? What are you laughing? That? What me? No? Oh?
48:04
I yeah, I put that up briefly while you were talking. I
48:07
didn't want to distract you. I know I would have made you let That
48:10
is a great, great comment there. And this is from I'm just going
48:16
to read a paragraph and a half from Bill Simpitchez the twelve who made the
48:23
Oswalt legend and built the Yeah built there you go. I didn't have the
48:30
title on my document here DeMar Shield Visited, Visited and exchanged, which,
48:37
by the way, this if you haven't read this essay, it could be
48:40
found on Mary Farrell for free, and it is a very good source of
48:46
Demarchield and later Ruth Payne and the handoff, but Demorrinshield visited and exchanged cards
48:52
and letters with CI official J. Walt Moore on a regular basis during the
48:55
fifties and sixties. Moore wrote memo in nineteen seventy seven claiming he only got
49:02
to meet Demorrinshield twice in fifty eight and sixty one. Moore's hazy memory on
49:08
a number of visits was exposed by the HSCA in nineteen sixty four. A
49:14
similar memo by More admitted he had met Tomornshield in fifty seven seven, several
49:17
times in fifty eight and nine, and the last time in sixty one.
49:23
There was more than that. Demorinshield sent More a stack of reports in fifty
49:30
seven fifty eight. In nineteen fifty eight, More used Demornshield as a contact
49:35
with a Polish official. In nineteen sixty, More referred to Demorschild as a
49:38
cleared contact in quotations for a copy of a memo of the US's our USSR's
49:45
use of petroleum and of course George Moore Shield was in a geologist. Moore
49:52
visited the de moorin Shields. This will be familiar to a lot of people
49:58
that study this sting of ours home in late nineteen sixty one to see a
50:04
movie of their walking tour from Mexico to Panama. Although the De Moorenshields said
50:08
they were tracking the mining trails of the old Spanish Concreetestadors, they found themselves
50:15
with hundreds of Cuban exiles in Guatemalap, Guatemala City, a staging area for
50:22
the bayf Pigs invasion that was about to begin. Convenient De Moorinshield revealed a
50:29
few hours before his death that Moore took him to lunch in sixty late sixty
50:34
one and described to him in ex Marine and Minsk, in whom the CIA
50:38
had quote interest in the Late in the summer of sixty two, an associate
50:44
of Moore suggested that de Moornshield might want to meet Oswalt. Demornshield then called
50:51
Moore, suggesting that suitable payback would be a little help by the State Department
50:57
with the oil exploration del Inhiti. Obviously we know he went to hate and
51:05
that is just some of what mister Bill Simpach wrote in regards to De moarn
51:08
Shield and Jay Walton Moore. Yes, and to follow up there a little
51:14
bit I got a memorandum here Joe for the Director of the Central Intelligence in
51:21
nineteen seventy six, who happens to be a man by the name of George
51:24
Bush. Maybe you heard of him. And this is from the Inspector General
51:30
John Waller of the CIA, and the subject is one mister George de Mornshield.
51:39
Action required none. This memorandum is for your information, sir. We
51:46
also have attached at something a suggested draft reply to mister de Mornshield's letter to
51:53
you. So basically the CIA Inspector General is telling the Director George Bush how
51:59
to add the letter from de Moornshield. Action taken two. We have reviewed
52:07
dd O and IG files on mister de Mornshield. In addition, at our
52:12
request, the CIA staff has run agency traces on him and has been in
52:16
touch with the FBI as well. Findings there is val humanists, if that's
52:23
a word, material on mister that means a lot. By the way,
52:29
there is a lot of material on mister de Mornshield and CIA's files, most
52:34
of it dating from post Kennedy assassination period. Ohshit, when he testified before
52:40
the Warren Commission on his acquaintance with mister and missus Lee Harvey Oswald. A
52:46
copy of de Morninshield's testimony is attached for your perusal, Sir. The bulk
52:53
of the material in our files consists of FBI reports, the most recent of
52:58
which is dated sixty seven. The FBI has informed CIA it has no traces
53:04
on De Morninshield beyond that date, and our files contain all of its previous
53:08
material on him. Mister Helms June third, nineteen sixty four memorandum for the
53:16
Warren Commission on the De Moorinshields is attached at the SEA. It describes the
53:22
agency's interest in obtaining reports from mister de Mornshield in nineteen fifty seven as a
53:28
result of his sojourn in Yugoslavia of that year Contact Division now the Domestic Collection
53:36
Division. The DCD had its resident agent in Dallas, mister J. Waltton
53:40
Moore, contact De Moorinshield at that time. The history of mister Moore's relationship
53:45
with De Moorinshield from fifty seven to sixty one is also attached. As a
53:50
routine matter, mister Moore requested traces on De Morninshield. The trace results attached
53:58
contained sufficient to rock datory information to preclude further extensive contact with the de Moornes
54:02
Shields and OS summary on mister de Mornshield prepared in response to the current request
54:10
is also attached for your perusals, Sir. Our files showed that a mail
54:15
cover was placed on letters addressed to mister de Mornshield care of the US Embassy
54:21
in Haiti from about sixty four to sixty six, so they're monitoring the de
54:24
Moorineshields mail for two years after the assassination. This and the quote parentheses this
54:32
was probably not uncovered at the time of the external investigations. In parentheses,
54:39
this included opening and photographing the contents of some letters by the CIA station there.
54:45
The results of this operation were shared with the FBI. Number seven.
54:50
Mister de Mornshield came to the attention of this office during the Rockefeller Commission investigations.
54:55
We were asked to respond to a memorandum submitted to the Commission by mister
54:59
Paul Hawkins titled CIA Activities and the Warren Commission Investigation. Mister Hock called for
55:06
an identification of mister J. Walton Moore's employment affiliation and asked what mister Moore
55:09
knew about Oswalt and what he may have told mister de Mornshield about him.
55:15
Our reply to the Rockefeller Commission is attached for your perusal, sir. The
55:21
most recent information we have on mister de Morninshield comes from mister J. Walton
55:24
Moore, who was contacted in May Ann's A Live seventy six by writers connected
55:30
with the Reader's Digest and with the Dial Press and the Dell Publishing Company.
55:35
Both writers questioned mister Moore about Oswald and mister de Mornshield. Mister Moore's reports
55:40
on these contacts are attached for your perusal, sir. Conclusions, mister de
55:46
Mornshield appears to have led an adventurous and colorful life as a petroleum engineer and
55:52
a businessman. That is true. He did leave an extremely colorful life,
56:01
that is without doubt. I think we can say he is alleged to have
56:07
how should we say it wrong to have gone both ways? And what was
56:13
the Dutch guy he befriended William Altman's later in life that that did a lot
56:19
of and actually played. Going back to our last episode, George tomorra Hill
56:23
the JFK movie, I believe yes, and he was alleged to you know,
56:30
playing in the dirt. I don't know how you say it. Sorry,
56:34
that's a family guy thing. I think I have no idea what you're
56:37
saying. Not for the better, Okay. In conclusion, they say he
56:44
have hold on He is both well and poorly connected, and some of his
56:53
associations in the past have raised serious questions. Certainly relationship with the Oswald's has
57:00
caused him considerable trouble and may have caused this agency and the FBI to spend
57:06
more time and energy on him in the past and was necessary, Joe.
57:10
Both the FBI and his agency, however, had dropped their interest in mister
57:15
de Morrinshield's activities by the mid to late sixties because hey, Oswald and Kennedy
57:22
are dead. He might not have agreed with that, though, sir,
57:25
because he I think in that letter to Bush alleged he was being followed and
57:31
tell and well, yeah, that's not until seventy six though, But yeah,
57:36
of course, yes, both the FBI and his agency, however,
57:39
had dropped their interest. Okay. We speculate that any attention he is now
57:44
receiving would either be from local authorities in Dallas or from media representatives on the
57:50
trail of a warmed over story concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. We offer
57:57
no proof of this conjecture beyond me mis Moore's reports attacked for your perusals,
58:02
Sir. What we can say is that we have found no indication that either
58:07
CIA or the FBI has taken any active interest in mister de Morninshield in recent
58:14
years. And this is from nineteen seventy six, So that's a roundabout way
58:21
of saying maybe maybe at one time, you know, we kind of liked
58:29
him for this or liked him for that. You know, who's to say?
58:34
Yeah, And he was very you know. He obviously was moved to
58:37
Haiti in May of nineteen sixty three and took up the task of getting Joseph
58:45
Clement Charles to overthrow Devalier in Haiti, and famously, when he came back
58:53
to testify to the Warrant Commission, he was greeted at the airport by Debriefer
58:59
Extraordinary Dorothy Matlock. If you get off their plane and get into your cab
59:07
and you see her, I want to be thrilled, you tiny dancer.
59:15
I wouldn't not be surprised. Allegedly, the first director of KGB so I
59:23
found a memo from the Office of Security concerning George Morrinshield and the CIA,
59:31
and it's saying that de Mornshield was security disapproved for OSS employment in nineteen forty
59:37
two because he was suspected of being a Nazi agent. On thirteen August fifty
59:45
eight, derogatory information was furnished to the Contact Office, who was interested in
59:50
interrogating him as an alien contact. His second wife, Phyllis, whom he
59:54
married on July forty eight and divorced in December forty nine, was employed as
1:00:00
a receptionist by a covert project called NCFE from nineteen fifty to January nineteen fifty
1:00:10
one, when her employment was terminated reason not given. Subject's brother, Dimitri
1:00:19
von mornschildt Yeah, was approved on April eleventh, nineteen fifty for exploitation as
1:00:27
a contact for foreign intelligence purposes on a limited basis not to receive classified information
1:00:34
above confidential. So you had his ex wife and his brother both approved by
1:00:42
the CIA for contact contract employment. Okay, yep. And his brother was
1:00:50
big and it was Radio Europe and Radio liberty. I believe one of the
1:00:58
projects of Court rob That's definitely believable. Definitely believable. Let's see. A
1:01:08
New York Times item from December twelfth, nineteen sixty six, mentioned that George
1:01:13
de Mornshield had been equated with Jacqueline Kennedy's father, John Bouvier and her mother,
1:01:20
Missus Hugh auction Class since Missus Kennedy was a girl. The de morn
1:01:25
Shields were quoted as saying they were perhaps the only persons in the world who
1:01:30
have known the families of both President Kennedy and the Oswalts. Yep, he
1:01:36
was uncle George to Jackie Kennedy, Uncle George, Uncle George. Yep,
1:01:45
that is who is it that said that no one knows the Oswalts and the
1:01:52
Kennedy is better than Demarren Shield. And that's kind of like a trick statement.
1:01:59
A trick yeah, because if you look at it, like who knew
1:02:04
both families the best, you could obviously make that argument. Ah. But
1:02:09
yeah. And I'm deep diving in the CIA files and you come across something
1:02:13
that says this, please destroy, Please destroy. Okay, these are de
1:02:22
Morninshield files, folks, please destroy. I mean, you can't make this
1:02:30
stuff up. So believe me everything. We just don't have everything. We
1:02:37
don't have and never will have the entire picture about any of this stuff because
1:02:46
things have been destroyed, misplaced, misfiled, YadA, YadA YadA. And
1:02:54
so, Joey, did you have anything else about Jay Walt and Moore or
1:02:57
de Mornshield before we move on? I think that's I think we're good there.
1:03:02
Yeah, dude, we could do a whole show just about the Morningshield.
1:03:06
We can for sure. There is a lot of meat on that bone.
1:03:12
But we'll move on briefly. Joe go ahead and address the next hand
1:03:15
off to the pains. Yes, so it is I guess common knowledge or
1:03:28
belief within You think I found the only slightly hot picture of Reef pain.
1:03:34
Oh you got to show it as I talked here, sir, Yes,
1:03:37
there you go, slightly hot. Hold please continue? Oh okay, Well
1:03:43
that's like nineteen sixty three hot, you know, like in nineteen sixty three.
1:03:46
That's hittable. I feel you you wouldn't stop in sixty three. Say
1:03:58
say you were a we a wee bit Rob Beckham, this eighteen year old
1:04:03
Rob in the sixty I said, she's fairly attractive in this photo. I
1:04:08
found the only photo where she's slightly attractive from the sideways angle. I mean
1:04:15
lighting. That's a light. That's really good lighting there that is, it's
1:04:20
a damn good lighting. And she has the uh what's the the lady from
1:04:29
Star Wars that played the uh, the princess Leah Buns. He's got the
1:04:34
Laya buns before it was cool. Yeah, yeah, but uh, okay,
1:04:42
I'm going to read a little so obviously, Ruth Payne was alleged to
1:04:46
have met the Oswalts at the party of Everett Glover on February twenty second,
1:04:54
nineteen sixty three. This is also commonly known as the quote Magnolia Party Everett
1:05:00
Glover Glover Clover Glover was probably Glover was a chemist, Yes, never know.
1:05:10
I was a chemist with Magnolia Labs, a geology lab, which he
1:05:14
was. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. If you spent enough time in the
1:05:20
geology lab and working for al companies, you might turn a little dark.
1:05:25
But uh. And of course mister George and Morenshield was our favorite geologist and
1:05:31
rob before I move on, do you remember when we were talking with Larry
1:05:35
Hancock and I said wasn't George de morenshield An Intelligence s l U T.
1:05:44
And he kind of pushed back on that, and it was like, well,
1:05:45
he was like really, And you know I got this from you know,
1:05:49
reading The Our Man in Haiti book by Joe Millan, which is a
1:05:55
really good you know, I think I don't think he was disloyal to the
1:06:00
United States. I think once he was here, he became loyal to the
1:06:03
United States, especially once if the government showed interest in him and paid him
1:06:11
for good information. Because look back then, people in his position as oil
1:06:15
geologists, I mean, he wasn't just looking at rocks, folks, Okay,
1:06:18
he's surveying for oil finding oil survey Haiti. I believe that was his
1:06:27
And where there's big money or where there's big oil, there's big money to
1:06:31
be had. And surely what he knew and what he found out in his
1:06:38
travels and for his job and this and that, you know, he's going
1:06:42
to be talking and mingling amongst very important, wealthy people, very influential people
1:06:47
of various countries, especially as an experient. Yeah, and you know,
1:06:55
also trying to prospect for oil. You know, that's just the way it
1:07:01
was back then. You know, oil was kind of like a new thing
1:07:05
back then, you know, striking and rich and all that good stuff.
1:07:10
So yeah, and he definitely was contracted to quote survey. I don't know
1:07:15
if it was how much oil was in Haiti. I think that was his
1:07:18
his cover, although it seemed like the official reason was to help in a
1:07:23
coup against a Vallier. And and you know, rising up Joseph Clement Charles,
1:07:29
who was the banker, one of the finance guys for de Valier.
1:07:33
And again I got this from our man in Haiti. And I think I
1:07:39
said during the conversation with Larry that like hed never had got an oil deal
1:07:45
in his life, and that's how it was in the book. But he
1:07:53
really didn't have any significant deals and he was always kind of on the take.
1:07:58
And his place in Haiti, which was kind of like up in the
1:08:02
mountains slash like elite gated area and Haiti back in the day, he was
1:08:09
kind of holding court and having all these intelligent people or people that had intelligence
1:08:14
people or people had connections to intelligence over for dinner, him and Jean,
1:08:16
and it was like a I don't know, it's a really weird situation.
1:08:23
What was going on? With George and Marenshall and he obviously had one a
1:08:26
bit longer life swapping. Yes, that was too and someone. I think
1:08:31
it was a tiny dancer. I asked, Do you think he got with
1:08:34
Marina like one of Diddy's white parties. You know, everybody's banging everybody,
1:08:40
you know, they just banging everybody. Yeah, I mean, I look,
1:08:47
Marina was a straight up sloop back then. I wouldn't put nothing past
1:08:54
any of it. But then again, I don't think Oswald would have been
1:08:59
down for something like that. No, he might have gotten pissy and stormed
1:09:02
off too jealous, right, I think so? Yeah, I mean,
1:09:08
but again, if you kind of believe some of the stories about you know,
1:09:11
what he was doing down there with the what was the chick of the
1:09:15
Cuban embassy, Oh Sylvia Duran, Yes, who knows? Yeah, Okay,
1:09:24
so let me keep reading because I went on a huge tangent there.
1:09:27
Yes, and the geology thing. So we're going back to the Magnolia party.
1:09:33
In February of nineteen sixty three, Glover and four other Magnolia employees approached
1:09:39
Oswald and got him to talk for several hour hours about life in the Soviet
1:09:44
Union. One of the employees, Norman Frederickson, was a son of the
1:09:48
former director of Radio Free Europe and that, of course, to Morenschild's brother
1:09:57
Dimitri was involved in as discussed in the prior chapter, the pains were or
1:10:05
were this pain simply manipulated in position Ruth and other intelligence operatives in her family
1:10:12
and the overall I would say message of this episode is how Oswalt was surrounded
1:10:23
by intelligence's whole life, and when we talked about how Ruth Paine was kind
1:10:30
of one degree of separation away. Her sister Sylvia Hoake was of course employed
1:10:38
by the CIA, and also her brother in law, John Hook. And
1:10:45
you have also Michael Payne's family who had connections to intelligence. His parents,
1:10:50
Ruth Forbes and Lehmann. Paine had a close friend named Mary Bancroft rob and
1:11:00
Bancroft was an OSS spy that held long term relationship with our favorite suspect,
1:11:06
Alan Dulles rob And she was the granddaughter of Clarence barn the owner of the
1:11:15
Dow Jones Company, the manager of the Wall Street Journal and of course the
1:11:19
down Dow Jones Index, and founder Baron's Magazine. Later on, Ruth Forbes's
1:11:32
third husband, which would be Michael Payne's stepfather, was the inventor of Bell
1:11:38
helicopter and his research has been extremely complicated and esoteric, with the Institute for
1:11:48
Advanced Studies at Princeton and as well as Bell Laboratories. And getting back to
1:11:55
Bancroft, a veteran spy, and this is Ruth Pain's moms, Ruth Forbes's
1:12:01
close friend, was allegedly the mysterious author of the twelve to sixty three memo
1:12:10
Rob which detailed the inner workings of the Paines family. And this was given
1:12:18
to Alan Dalles, who gave it to Angleton, who then gave it to
1:12:23
the FBI liaison Sam Pepich. And although the writer's the letters, the writer's
1:12:29
name was never disclosed, it is alleged that it was written by Mary Bancroft.
1:12:36
And that's a really interesting document as well, talks about the history of
1:12:45
the Pains family and her sister and her father, and it's almost certainly Bancroft
1:12:53
that wrote this letter, and of course gave it to Alan Dulles. And
1:12:59
although the Pains here to be government assets rather than agents, I suspect they
1:13:04
knew about the government's need to keep an eye on Oswalt. They probably thought
1:13:09
they were helping out the CIA, the State Department or Bob Odam of the
1:13:15
local FBI office. So you know, there's a lot on Ruth Paine.
1:13:23
We don't need to deep dive her an hour and fifteen minutes into this podcast.
1:13:28
There's a ton out here there, but she was very integral and like
1:13:35
we said, one degree of separation away from her sister and other official CAA
1:13:43
ties, much like almost Davy Ferry and George so Morens. There's a trend
1:13:46
here and it will continue, yes, because next up we are going to
1:13:55
circle back around folks to someone we touched on because after of course the assassination,
1:14:02
Ruth Payne gets cut out of the picture because Marina doesn't trust her anymore
1:14:05
for some reason. I wonder why. But anyway, that brings us back
1:14:12
to the folks that were on the boat coming back from Russia with the Oswalds.
1:14:17
Fast forward a year and a half and where does Marina find herself after
1:14:25
the company of Ruth Payne, And that would be back with the Martin family,
1:14:31
James, Herbert and Wanda. It's a very handsome fella, yes,
1:14:39
I mean We're not going to spend a lot of time on this because hey,
1:14:42
we did a hell of a lot of shows on a hell of a
1:14:44
lot of Martin's. Okay, they're all in the archives. But Joe did
1:14:50
come across a new document that is very, very, very interesting, and
1:15:01
we're going to examine a couple excerpts from that said document right now because it's
1:15:11
pertinent because we've been painting you all this picture since Oswell was a teenager.
1:15:16
Somebody affiliated with the CIA seemed to have eyes on this guy all the time
1:15:23
throughout his life leading up to the assassination and his death, and then on
1:15:29
to Marina after that for months years. So Joe, please let's drop a
1:15:35
little knowledge about a new document that we found about the Martins. Oh yes,
1:15:43
sir, so I first want to thank South to this for this understatement
1:15:50
of the year. That's exactly if they keep popping up. I mean,
1:15:57
what are you gonna do? What are you going to do? And you
1:15:59
know what, Rob, would you be shocked if I told you that during
1:16:02
the preparation for the show, I found another Martin. Yes, but it's
1:16:08
not a j Martin. We'll get we'll get there. Problem. I feel
1:16:14
like maybe the jay was kind of out of style by then. Maybe so,
1:16:21
sister. This is a statement of James Sheber Martin in nineteen sixty seven,
1:16:30
about mid nineteen sixty seven. I just found this document this week,
1:16:34
And we had never seen this document before, Rob, because we did not
1:16:40
come across it in the in our Martin investigation. No but slip through our
1:16:45
cracks. But you know what, I want to give a shout out to
1:16:47
Carmine because his message to you and then you forwarded to me led me to
1:16:54
this. Yes, it spread it. Yes, that is what good docum
1:17:00
researchers do. Use some information and spurn other things a confidential source who has
1:17:08
not been contacted sufficiently to determine the reliability of information furnished. I feel like
1:17:14
that's kind of like a preface to be like, well, we're not true
1:17:15
if this is true. But yeah, I digress. On June twentieth,
1:17:19
nineteen sixty seven, so this is about three years and three or four months
1:17:30
after Marina moved out of James Herbert Martin and Wanda's house. In February nineteen
1:17:38
sixty four, advise a special agent of the Tampa Division of the FBI as
1:17:42
follows and Rob. We know that this is very plausible because James Herbert Martin
1:17:50
did move to Saint Petersburg, Florida in the mid to late nineteen sixties.
1:18:00
We have an interview with him. I think they're in like the eighties or
1:18:02
nineties, but it wasn't this juicy, So we'll get there. Approximately one
1:18:06
and a half years ago, James Herbert Martin had been in Saint Petersburg,
1:18:11
Florida, attempting to obtain employment in the hotel restaurant management field. Damn,
1:18:18
you ran out of money so quick after taking all that money from the donation
1:18:23
of family. Are living in the station wagon. Yeah, one has to
1:18:30
wonder how you blow that much funds because you're talking about we'll get to the
1:18:34
money that he says was taken him per week. But at this time,
1:18:41
a white male, first name unknown. I think they're talking about the source
1:18:45
here, last name Linquist or phonetic. I think that means, yeah,
1:18:54
employed in the employee of the management business at the Sheridan Outrigger Hotel US Highway
1:19:00
nineteen South, satph Petersburg, Florida, would not even consider employing mister poor
1:19:06
James Herber Martin because he was the individual who was the business manager for Marina
1:19:13
Oswalt immediately following the assassination of President Kennedy. Check that is true. Martin
1:19:19
has been the manager of the Sixth Flag the Inn and six Flags Dallas,
1:19:23
Texas at the time, and after the assassination had become a public relations representative
1:19:29
for the Oswalt family, more for Marina and I guess in her two daughters
1:19:38
as well. In theory, but Linquist refused to employ him or consider him
1:19:44
as the motel did not want to adverse publicity with which accompanied Martin. Martin
1:19:49
was unable to obtain employment in the hotel restaurant management field and is believed to
1:19:56
have obtained employment with Sears and Depart. We are in Saint Petersburg, Florida.
1:20:01
Okay. Interesting, This is where it gets juicy. People service agents
1:20:12
or FBI agents. I think I meant secret service agents had contacted him and
1:20:16
asked for a suite of rooms to be used on a confidential basis to accommodate
1:20:21
Marina Oswalt, her mother in law, and Lee Oswalt's brother that would be
1:20:26
Robert, as well as representatives of this secret service and robably know this is
1:20:32
semi true because under our understanding it was the Fort Worth Sheriffs that reached out
1:20:41
to the Secret Service, right, Mera, you must be muted, Yes,
1:20:55
sorry about that. I was. I was just saying, but it
1:20:57
was orchestrated by James Herbert Martin to the Fort Worth Sheriff to reach out to
1:21:01
the Secret Service to bring her there. So it was all orchestrated by Martin.
1:21:06
Yes, these arrangements were made, so I mean they're saying that it
1:21:11
was the other way around here, which you know he would. He's allegedly
1:21:15
saying this, so he's kind of deflecting. That will kind of make sense.
1:21:17
The arrangements were made, and for approximately two weeks the government agents held
1:21:24
question and answer periods with members of the Oswald family. We're going to do
1:21:29
community fact check here because we are probably the world's for most experts on James
1:21:33
Ubermarren for what's that? For what that is worth? That is also true.
1:21:40
Now, this again, folks, is an FBI document. Yes,
1:21:45
okay, you see them already referring to themselves in this document at the very
1:21:50
top of its FBI agents they also specifically say the Secret Service. Now please
1:21:59
continue, Joe and see what see what they call the next group of folks.
1:22:04
Okay, well, uh, the group moved period, or the group
1:22:13
the group moved from the motel after the government agents informed Martin that Marina's location
1:22:20
had been determined by another government agency and they would have to move her.
1:22:28
Pause. Sorry, I was reading the teleprompter. Uh, fact check.
1:22:35
That is an interesting sentenced to unpack here, because, uh, we've talked
1:22:45
about how there was a lot of inter agency rivalry in terms of who would
1:22:51
get custody of Marina. In a sense, the Secret Service had been uh
1:22:59
kind of camped up with the Oswalt family at the Six Flags in until the
1:23:05
twenty six or twenty seventh or up until the twenty ninth. But it was
1:23:11
alleged on the twenty seventh that the Phoebe's the FBI. And this is based
1:23:18
on Robert Oswalt's book, for what it's worth, rolled up while him and
1:23:25
Secret Surge Secret Service agent Capods was leaving for lunch, and he said,
1:23:30
the Phoebees have found us. But this is a sentence that this is an
1:23:36
FBI report specifically referring to another government agency, not themselves. Okay, and
1:23:44
it's c seed to who rot who was I could answer it the Secret Service
1:23:50
was also or Department of Justice was also c seed on this document. So
1:23:56
you have an FBI document c seed to the Secret Service US. But they're
1:24:00
talking about government agents and having to move Marina and her family as her kids,
1:24:08
Robert and Marguerite obviously did not go with them to the Martin home.
1:24:15
And if you remember correctly, let me we allege that James Martin and his
1:24:19
wife Wanda were working for the CIA specifically, and we know Ladder is correct.
1:24:27
We've also believed that in this document, this FBI document, they're not
1:24:31
talking about themselves. They say FBI agents or Secret Service agents, so they
1:24:36
are referring to the CIA. When you see the words government agency and government
1:24:42
agents, they are referring to the CIA. So keep that in mind.
1:24:47
I believe, so, sir, I do. There's no there's really no
1:24:51
other option. There's no other explanation. The government agents had already conducted a
1:25:02
background investigation on him and propositioned him to allow Marina Oswald and her two children
1:25:10
that would be June and Rachel to live with him in his home. But
1:25:15
he orchestrated all this stuff. Yeah, I mean that was our under Somebody
1:25:21
told somebody was telling him to orchestrate all this stuff. Yes, basically the
1:25:27
way this document is reading. But yeah, yeah, please continue. Sure,
1:25:32
he was additionally propositioned to being Marina's Oswalt's Marina Oswalt's business manager, and
1:25:39
he accepted on a basis he would perform these duties as long as she resided
1:25:44
with him. Okay, we got to unpack that here. We were always
1:25:53
under the assumption that he propositioned Marina and for him to be his business manager,
1:26:01
and of course brought other people on like her lawyer and the warrant commission
1:26:08
mister John Martin Thorne, of course. But here in this document, and
1:26:14
again he is telling this to an FBI informant who is directly relating it to
1:26:20
the special Agents in charge agent in charge in Florida, Saint Petersburg, and
1:26:28
Saint Petersburg coincidentally was actually an area where a lot of mafioso's were hanging.
1:26:33
Interesting, but we'll get to that, I promise, Okay, and his
1:26:47
family and he operated as her business manager and preparing contracts with magazines, newspapers
1:26:53
and other periodicals and arranged for interviews and press releases. Fact check true.
1:27:01
He indicated money came in initially at the rate of fifty thousand dollars per week
1:27:09
from public donors. That's half a million ish today. That's a lot of
1:27:13
money. That's a lot of money. She resided with him for a period
1:27:20
of three months, was closer to two and a half. But what are
1:27:24
you going to do? And during the time she was at the house,
1:27:28
government agents rob posed as attorneys and developers who were associates of Martin named Martin
1:27:36
as well. And hold on, I'm gonna stop sharing this for a second,
1:27:44
becau I'm gonna read the comments, and I think, has anyone been
1:27:47
paying attention to class? Who can guess who that possible government agent as a
1:27:53
lawyer would be? I just mentioned him, that would I think he's referring
1:28:02
to John Martin Thorn. And you know, I've long suspected because if you
1:28:10
go back, and I think a lot of people here are familiar with our
1:28:12
James Herbert Martin episode. It was when I say a really good one,
1:28:20
he didn't well, John Martin Thorn was Oh, I just lost my train
1:28:32
of thought. John Martin Thorn is allegedly to be one of these attorneys that
1:28:40
was posing as a government agent. And as we'll get to in later and
1:28:45
they were saying a government agent posing as attorneys and contractors, maybe people installing
1:28:53
lines phone lines in their house or doing construction. Yeah, I'm thinking about
1:28:59
putting a new roof on the house. And yeah, come on in,
1:29:01
Joe and walking around the house. Yes, yeah, I don't That's what
1:29:08
I was interested in. Developers. I wonder what they mean by that.
1:29:11
I mean contractors, okay, or yeah, developers, you know people they
1:29:18
were probably having meetings with, you know, with Marina about different things.
1:29:25
They would have been government agents instead of legit lawyers or legit businessmen or legit
1:29:33
developers or contractors, and specifically says they were friends of Martin associates, meaning
1:29:42
they work for the same people government agents. Ci A. Well, however
1:29:46
you want to say it, but let's continue, let's not get bogged down.
1:29:50
In Morton, Thornland, she was presented as well. She was presented
1:30:00
as a considerate mother who cared for her children and was bereaved by the loss
1:30:05
of her husband. Not she didn't, she didn't more in very long,
1:30:14
she's more in very long. After meetings with the yes, by the loss
1:30:26
of her husband. After meetings with the press, she would be alone with
1:30:29
Martin's family. She would always chastise the stupid Americans. Fact check that is
1:30:33
true. We have heard that in a lot of other documents. And whether
1:30:40
that's like James Herbert Martin's kind of company line or not, that is what
1:30:45
him and John Martin Thorne actually said. Marina Oswalt consumed large amounts of Vodkins,
1:30:50
spoke very fluent English. That is very interesting, Rob, very fluent
1:30:58
English, which we will find out here in a second as soon as we
1:31:01
finish up with this document. Yes, she consistently claims she had knowledge of
1:31:05
the most important officials in the Soviet Union and when living in Russia she had
1:31:09
complete access to all government facilities. She made statements she knew about the assassination
1:31:15
before it occurred. See, I think that is where it starts getting into
1:31:18
James Herbert Martin propaganda spin type of thing. Yeah, if you remember in
1:31:27
the Warren Commission, he brought up this whole Nixon thing, which was Oswald
1:31:31
tried to assassinate Nixon when he came to Dallas, and but she didn't.
1:31:40
He didn't because Marina locked Lee in a closet and then one of the people
1:31:45
in the Warm Commission as well, how do you lock a bathroom from the
1:31:47
outside, And she couldn't answer it, and it was kind of like pushed
1:31:50
aside. So I feel like they're kind of grasping at straws here in a
1:31:55
sense, and like in terms of the James Martin initial party line, but
1:32:02
he's still sticking to that in a sense. Right, she had made statements.
1:32:09
I don't think she knew about the assassination before it occurred, because I'm
1:32:13
not sure if Lee knew the assassination before it occurred, and if he did,
1:32:17
would tell Marina that she was part of the Communist Party and would have
1:32:23
prevented the assassination had she desired. Now, you have to remember, James
1:32:29
Martin and Marina actually went to court over their contract. It was settled out
1:32:32
of court. We don't know the exact amount, but yeah, missus Martin
1:32:40
maintained a diary, that is mister missus Wanda Rop and took down exhaustive notes
1:32:46
concerning all statements and comments by Marina Oswald and intended to write a book in
1:32:51
the future. Missus kind of and like, ie, it be nice to
1:33:02
get your hands on Wanda Martin's diary. Oh god, that would be priceless.
1:33:10
That's like up there, that's up there with the jam Wave internal report.
1:33:15
That's up there with Marilyn Monroe's diary, you know what I mean.
1:33:19
And Dorothy kill Gallen's for that matter. Yeah, and that's a joke,
1:33:24
Joe Myers diary. Okay, Martin allegedly knew Jack Ruby, the man who
1:33:30
killed the Oswalt fact check by the Martin experts. True. He admitted that
1:33:35
in his Warran commissioned testimony that in the hotel industry he did know Jack Ruby
1:33:41
and through motel and restaurant associations. And we had alleged that if Ruby needed
1:33:47
a hotel for his guests of honor, he might have contacted mister Martin at
1:33:55
the Six Flags for some or maybe thorn private parties. Arth on to video
1:34:02
tape it now to reiterate something that was said in the document and something I
1:34:11
believe wholeheartedly that Marina Oswald knew way more and understood way more English than she
1:34:21
let on. Okay, you have to remember, folks, when she testified
1:34:28
to the Warren Commission, it was done through an interpreter. Whenever she was
1:34:32
interviewed by the FBI or Secret Service, it was done through an interpreter.
1:34:36
Yet, two months after the assassination, she was interviewed by a very close
1:34:44
sitting man and Ruth Pines or I'm sorry, and the Martin Holme because she
1:34:48
was living there at the time. This interview occurred on January twenty seventh,
1:34:53
nineteen sixty four. And I'm gonna play not all of this, but a
1:34:59
good bit of it so you can get a good understanding. It's only five
1:35:01
minutes long about Marina's English abilities and it's very eye opening if you have not
1:35:10
seen this before, so check it out. That's Marina. What do you
1:35:46
do all day? How do you spend your day? Yeah? I am
1:35:51
d there with my children all day. I try to help deplay house and
1:36:00
must die for m little bit cook, play play with children outside. Hm.
1:36:10
Are you uh under the rest of any kind? No? I never
1:36:14
done a lot. I didn't you like to stay? Oh? That's the
1:36:18
true. Are you free to do what you want to do? Yes,
1:36:23
I'm free. MM. If I can't, uh, you know, if
1:36:28
I want to go to shopping or every play, I can't u to go.
1:36:38
How about your children, Marina? Are they good children? Do they
1:36:44
behave? Yes? Mm? My children very good for me, and I
1:36:47
think this is very good children for everybody, because junior and that child is
1:36:53
very quiet and listening. How do you uh speak to the children in Russian
1:37:00
or English? Now? I stick a junior. HM. Many times I
1:37:09
speak a junior in Russian language. M. But uh sometime if I know
1:37:15
English, world times after I think English. Junior is two years old?
1:37:20
Juniors or three all in pibuli MM. Rachel legs she understand English in Russia,
1:37:30
but she don't speak English, and Rachel is frasis. She wants to
1:37:35
'em. Mariann. Do you believe that your husband killed President Kennedy? M?
1:37:45
I didn't want to believe, but uh, I have too much Fox
1:37:48
and Fox tell me, uh, this league shot Kennedy. Did they ever
1:37:57
tell you that he was going to do this? H? He never?
1:38:00
Don't tell me this? And this was what a bit surprise for me.
1:38:10
Lorena. Did you love Lee Oswald? Yes? I I lovely and I
1:38:15
started him what I say? You're sorry for him? That's uhh uh died
1:38:21
very young. Do you uh visit his grave? That's t mm. I'd
1:38:29
be the three in the grave every week, one time or two times a
1:38:35
week. We renda what? Uh? What do you plan on to do?
1:38:44
Alright, I think that's enough said. That's one of that's two or
1:38:47
three blow jobs for James Herbert Martin a week when they go visit the grave.
1:38:53
And the point of this video is to show you, guys, how
1:39:00
good her English speaking and comprehension ability was. This is two months after the
1:39:05
assassination. Yeah, you can't sit here and honestly tell me that she did
1:39:15
not know English before she met Oswald. There's no way. I agree,
1:39:24
no way, because if she was doing like the honey trap stuff over there,
1:39:30
or a swallow or whatever she was doing, she would have learned English
1:39:35
because you have to talk to Americans, you know, to get information,
1:39:39
you have to understand English. You know. A good way to have men
1:39:45
speak freely around you is if they think that you can't understand what they're saying,
1:39:48
but you really do. And this is on national tele I mean,
1:39:55
Joe, could you imagine going on national television in Russia at the height of
1:40:01
the Cold War and being interviewed by somebody in Russian and you have to answer,
1:40:09
understand what you're asking you and then answer in Russian. I can't.
1:40:15
I can barely read English, but me it is it's a lot, and
1:40:26
you know, I as we'll talk a little bit about some of Marina's later,
1:40:33
she actually attended an English school ROB at the University of Michigan in early
1:40:40
nineteen sixty five for eight weeks an intensive course. And this is in the
1:40:45
FBI documents that I will show and the Special Agent in charge Dallas and some
1:40:51
people I think you're going to talk about next, which is the Fords.
1:40:57
We're telling the FBI that Marina is going to school in Michigan and this is
1:41:06
in December of sixty four, and then tells about some actors she might have
1:41:14
hooked up with on New Year's that might have had some connections in Michigan.
1:41:17
And then we'll get there, I promise, But it goes it hands it
1:41:24
off to the Special Agent in charge of Detroit ROB and then when she leaves,
1:41:29
the Special Agent of Detroit says, upon receipt of her arrival back in
1:41:33
Dallas, we're going to hand it back to the Dallas Special Agent in charge.
1:41:38
So we've done episodes on Marina and her after assassination surveillance. Right then
1:41:45
we say there's sixteen we had come across the document. Sixteen agents a day,
1:41:49
eight on twelve hour shifts each. I believe this was going on until
1:41:57
mid nineteen sixty five. I don't know if that amount, but you've had
1:42:01
people will get into it. The soul advising on her almost you know,
1:42:10
a year and a half after the assassination. Yeah. So she she gets
1:42:18
tired of James Martin in his advances and they got caught screwing basically in Washington
1:42:27
when she went there to testify for the Warrant Commission and blew everything up.
1:42:31
She ended up calling Wanda and making him get on the phone and tell his
1:42:38
wife what happened and all this stuff. And immediately immediately upon returning from DC,
1:42:48
she decides it's time to get out of the Martin household. It's a
1:42:54
toxic environment. Whatever. So she is invited to the home of her good
1:43:00
white Russian friends, the Fords, Declan and Catherine Ford. These are some
1:43:10
prominent white Russians. Okay, and let me give you a little bit about
1:43:15
the resume and experience and education of one Declan Ford. So this goes back
1:43:24
to nineteen forty two when he enlisted in the US Navy. Okay, wow,
1:43:34
yeah, he he enlisted in the US Navy. Part of this time
1:43:43
was spent at UCLA and most of the remainder in officer training schools, receiving
1:43:48
an honorable discharge with the rank of Aviation Cadet. He speaks Spanish fluently,
1:43:56
French fluently enough to read geological reports in France, and Russian geology role huh
1:44:05
geology geological reports. Yes, he's a geologist. From forty five to forty
1:44:15
six he was employed at the Western Geophysical Company in La California. He was
1:44:20
on the seismograph crew in Montana, Wyoming in West Texas, monitoring earthquakes.
1:44:29
From forty six to forty eight he was at the University of California at Los
1:44:32
Angeles, where he received his bachelor's degree in geology. Subjects taken outside the
1:44:38
geological department were inorganic chemistry, physics, college algebra, analytical geometry, differential
1:44:45
and integral calculus, German serving, English, American history and government, geography,
1:44:51
and physical education. So this guy was a freaking stud very smart fellow.
1:45:03
From forty eight to fifty he was with the Tidewater Oil Company in Bakersfield,
1:45:09
surface and sub surface geological studies in the San Joaquin Valley of California.
1:45:15
From fifty to fifty three was with the Continental Oil Company of Los Angeles,
1:45:19
California, where he made surface and subsurface geological studies of various areas in California
1:45:26
and did well cite geology on wildcat wells. During part of this time he
1:45:32
was assisted. He was assisted by junior geologists who he trained in the techniques
1:45:38
of the work, so he was diving even under water looking for oil off
1:45:44
the coast of California. From there he was employed at Gallier MacNaughton Incorporated in
1:45:50
Madrid, Spain. Same thing. First three years were spent making regional detailed
1:45:57
surface geological studies for the purpose of locationating drilling prospects in Spain. He moved
1:46:03
from Spain to Turkey and does the same thing. Supervised geological field parties which
1:46:11
mapped certain licenses held by a client in the Republic of Turkey. From sixty
1:46:15
to sixty two he was in Dallas prepared report on the geology and oil prospects
1:46:21
of certain exploration licenses held by a client in the Republic of Turkey. An
1:46:28
advised client on the advisability of further exploration and expenditures on the licenses. In
1:46:34
Dallas, Texas, he reviewed the geology of Australia and outlined an exploration program
1:46:40
of certain permits held by a client. He made subsurface geological studies of oil
1:46:45
and gas fields in north east Mexico, the Texas Gulf Coast, Argentina,
1:46:48
Bolivian Peru. These were used for making reserve estimates and evaluating the oil and
1:46:55
gas prospect for clients interested in these areas. A sixty two to October sixty
1:47:00
two subsurface geological studies and reserved calculations of oil and gas fields of Louisiana October
1:47:10
sixty two to the present consulting geologist Dallas, Texas engaged in the development and
1:47:16
evaluation of shallow drilling prospects in North Texas. So interesting that before he was
1:47:28
in Dallas, then he went to Louisiana, and then he went back to
1:47:30
Dallas, kind of like somebody else we know. Ford is married to a
1:47:39
Russian woman who came to this country shortly after World War II, having married
1:47:44
an individual named Scottie who was stationed in Russia in connection with the land lease
1:47:49
program. She was always quite outspoken and indicated on several occasions that the communist
1:47:56
system was quite good. She divorced Scottie and Mary declan Ford, who applied
1:48:00
for a job here on August fifteenth, nineteen sixty three. Catherine Ford has
1:48:05
recently been in the scene in the company of Marina Oswald. Both Catherine and
1:48:11
Declan Ford of security investigations. And that's by the CIA folks, by the
1:48:19
way, in case you were wondering, And let's see here. So this
1:48:32
is a February nineteen sixty four Dallas Police intelligence document to Captain Gannaway of the
1:48:43
Special Services Bureau. These are the same people that were watching the Martins that
1:48:46
we got that same other document from. Yep. The White House direct line
1:48:50
was written by Ganaware through Hosty's buddy Jack Ravelle, the Criminal Intelligence Division,
1:48:57
Special Services Bureau, Dallas Police Department. Subject Criminal Intelligence George Bowie, Sir.
1:49:05
Pursuant to the instructions of Captain Ganaway, Subjects was interviewed with the following
1:49:10
results. Subject is a native born Russian. He came to the United States
1:49:14
in nineteen twenty four. He became a resident of Dallas, Texas in thirty
1:49:18
nine. Subject is an accountant and he works from his home. Subject stated
1:49:24
that he first met Lee Harvey and Marina Oswald on August twenty fifth, nineteen
1:49:28
sixty two. Okay, so now we're still early in sixty two. Remember
1:49:33
I said that the de Morrinshields met them in the summer of sixty two.
1:49:36
This is August when this guy, George Bowie, at the home of Decklan
1:49:44
and Katia Ford, who is a patrolling engineer at the Continental Life Building in
1:49:49
Fort Worth, Texas, brought the Oswalds to the Ford's home and introduced them
1:49:55
to the Russian speaking group in Dallas. Subjects stated that he saw Oswald apart
1:50:00
some only eight times and that he did not know very much about this due
1:50:02
to the fact that he was very withdrawn. Subjects stated that George de Mornshield,
1:50:09
whose mailing addresses blah blah blah, brought the Oswalds to the last party
1:50:14
they attended at the Fords on December twenty eighth, nineteen sixty two. Subject
1:50:18
also stated that Marina Oswald spent some time during November of sixty two. This
1:50:24
is very interesting at the homes of Declan and Katia Ford, Frank and Anna
1:50:32
Ray, and Tiophil and Anna Miller due to some domestic problems she and Lee
1:50:38
Harvey were having. Subject does not believe Oswald had any relationship with Jack Ruby,
1:50:45
respectfully submitted fa Helling Hansen, Detective of the Criminal Intelligence Section. So
1:50:53
apparently LEEA and Marina had separated in November of sixty two at some point,
1:51:00
and she went to live with the Fords for a short time, which is
1:51:03
interesting in something that I did not know. Yeah, that's that's very interesting.
1:51:10
And was that after one of the alleged physical altercations. I don't know
1:51:20
the document was that before, Ruth, would you say the date? Wasn't
1:51:24
that November sixty two? Oh, yeah, that's way before. Yeah.
1:51:31
Got another intelligence report from five days after that last one, and this is
1:51:38
concerning the subject of Thomas and Natalie Ray. Pursuing to the instructions of Captain
1:51:44
Ganaway's subjects, investigation was conducted with the following results. Information was received by
1:51:48
this office as subjects who reside at Blossom, Texas on Park Road. We're
1:51:54
friends of Lee Harvey Oswald, and then Oswald stayed at their home for a
1:51:58
few days prior to the assassination of President Kennedy. Subjects were interviewed by the
1:52:09
undersigned officers stated that they had met Oswald at a party on December twenty eighth,
1:52:15
nineteen sixty two at the home of Declan Ford. Subjects stated that they
1:52:19
were invited to the party by mister Ed Harris, who resides in Georgetown,
1:52:23
Texas and operates a cleaning establishment at this location. Subjects stated there is a
1:52:29
Frank and Anna Ray who reside in Dallas, Texas that were good friends of
1:52:32
the Oswalds. Subjects stated that the people who attended this party were either Russian
1:52:39
born or married to someone who was. The following is a list of some
1:52:44
of the people who attended the party. Daniel Sullivan, geologists for Continental Oil,
1:52:50
George Bowie, Anna and Teo Phil Miller, Tatiana Higgins, and Declan
1:53:00
Ford. Subjects stated that this was the only time that some of them met
1:53:05
Oswald. Natalie Ray was Russian born. Then we have another interview and this
1:53:15
was with tu Phil Miller, another white Russian, a subject who was born
1:53:20
in Poland resides at La Vista Drive with his wife, Anna, who was
1:53:24
Russian born. He'd employed as a packer at Sanger Harris Department store and she
1:53:30
is a draftsman at the Dallas Power and Light Company. Missus Miller stated that
1:53:35
excuse me, she and George Bowie went to a small party. It's residents
1:53:40
of Peter Gregory and Fort Worth during the summer of sixty two. You know
1:53:46
about the Gregory's, right, I do, sir, I have a little
1:53:50
because this is summer of sixty two when they just got back from Russia.
1:53:56
That's, sir, where they met Lee Harvey Oswald, Marina Oswald. She
1:54:00
and Bowie visited the Oswalds in Fort Worth two or three times after that to
1:54:05
take them food and clothing. Oswald became very belligerent on these occasions, saying
1:54:11
that he didn't need or want help from anyone. Missus Miller also stated that
1:54:15
she saw the book Dos Copy Tao, which was written by Karl Marx,
1:54:19
during one of these visits at Oswald's house and became very worried about it.
1:54:25
Subjects said he checked with the FBI and they told him that Oswald was okay,
1:54:29
He's all right right, he's light. He worked for a Jagger style
1:54:33
trouble. Yeah, he's one of us, He's all right. Subjects stated
1:54:38
that a friend of his, Missus Cunningham, with the Texas Employment Commission,
1:54:42
had helped Oswald get a job with a photo engraving company in Dallas in October
1:54:46
of sixty two, when subject told Oswald that he should thank her for getting
1:54:51
him the job, he said, why should I thank anyone for getting me
1:54:56
a job? Or I only make a dollar twenty five an hour, bitch
1:55:02
onner. About November fifth, nineteen sixty two, Marina telephoned missus Miller and
1:55:12
told her that Lee Harvey had beat her up and she had left him.
1:55:17
So that's November fifth, sixty two. Yeah, Craig Cray, Yes,
1:55:25
And I have another interesting uh tidbit about mister Gregory, sir, and this
1:55:33
please whip it out and drop it on us. I'm going whip it out.
1:55:38
I'm gonna whip it out like petty Russel h. This is also from
1:55:44
Bill Simbitsch's The Twelve That Built the Oswalt Legend, and it's a little paragraph
1:55:48
entitled Oswald returned from the Soviet Union speaking Russian with a Polish accent. When
1:55:54
Oswalt and his family returned to Dallas Fort Worth area from the Soviet Union,
1:55:58
that would be also a nineteen sixty two, sir, they knew they had
1:56:01
to make contacts, that they were going to put food on the table.
1:56:04
Oswalt sought sought out Peter Gregory shortly after his arrival. Peter Gregory described himself
1:56:12
as an oil consultant again back the geology who came from Russia in nineteen twenty
1:56:19
three, was of course a white Russian as well. He was also a
1:56:24
translator, and he translated one of the early FBI interviews of Marina. I
1:56:31
believe it was like twenty seventh, twenty eighth. But his son, Paul,
1:56:40
this is Peter Gregory's son had taken Russian lessons from Oswalt's wife Marina,
1:56:50
and Gregory I think they're talking about Peter here. The father provided Oswalt with
1:56:57
a letter certifying Oswalt's ability to serve as a translator. With a document attached.
1:57:03
Gregory commented on Oswald's pronounced Polish accent, which was the result of his
1:57:11
time with the Zeigers, which is another part of the legend makers. But
1:57:18
so, Peter Gregory's son took Russian lessons from Marina in sixty two, and
1:57:28
he was later whether it's you know, she wanted someone she was comfortable with
1:57:33
to translate with the early interviews post JFKA, or it's just a big coincidence.
1:57:43
It's really interesting connection. And the white Russians go deep in this story
1:57:50
here in terms of Marina and Lee before the assassination and after and for years
1:57:59
as we'll see. Yeah, and now we're up into the seventies, folks,
1:58:02
and you know what's happened. Then we're we're in mid sixties. I'm
1:58:08
gonna, I'm gonna, I got one thing for you. Go ahead,
1:58:13
yes, sir. Sorry, So let's see. So going back to the
1:58:20
end of nineteen sixty four, this is an Airtel to the Director FBI from
1:58:26
Special Agent in Charge Dallas, from mister Declin Ford Rob and he advised on
1:58:32
one four sixty five, January fourth, sixty five that subject had arrived at
1:58:39
ann Arbor, Michigan on one three. He's advising the day after to begin
1:58:45
her eight week course in the English language. Rob her children remain at Richardson,
1:58:53
Texas. So I didn't know this really, that Marina in the end
1:58:58
of nineteen sixty four to early night or to early nineteen sixty five or January
1:59:03
for eight weeks arrived at the University of Michigan for an advanced English language course.
1:59:11
So her kids stayed with the Fords, I believe so her they weren't
1:59:16
in Richardson. But I believe she did buy her house by then. You
1:59:23
know, she was bowling in that in that money from all the donations from
1:59:27
the stupid Americans. Well, when did she marry Kenneth Porter? So she
1:59:31
married Kenneth Porter in June of nineteen sixty four, So this is before that.
1:59:38
So she left your kids with him? No, no, no,
1:59:43
So she had only known Porter for three weeks before they married. And guess
1:59:51
how she met Ford the house you mean Porter? Yes, Ford Porter,
1:59:59
Ford Porter. So she had a three bedroom of a house she bought in
2:00:05
Richardson, Texas. And this is after she moved out with the Fords.
2:00:10
I believe it was February March sixty four that we went into this In one
2:00:15
of our previous episodes, Rob and the Richardson Texas thing stuck out to me,
2:00:20
but allegedly Porter was staying at a friend's house that was adjacent to the
2:00:30
back patio of Marina's new house. So he would see her on the back
2:00:39
porch smoking cigarettes, yeah, drinking vodka. Pretty blessing in the window for
2:00:46
all onlookers to see. Real quick, Joe, before you continue. For
2:00:54
folks that don't know, this is creepy Ken Porter standing right behind Marina.
2:01:03
He always seems to be like a hawk guy in her just watching her every
2:01:08
freaking move. Yeah, it's just it's creepy, Like what the hell is
2:01:15
this guy doing. Yeah, he's a character that we might get into in
2:01:24
depth more. But you know he was They've been together for sixty years.
2:01:29
Yeah, God bless him. Yeah that's true, which is not like not
2:01:36
in the trend of Marina in a sense, right, Like, yeah,
2:01:41
well, I'm not saying she hadn't had any other d in the past sixty
2:01:45
years. Oh no, a lot Porter has put up with it. Porter.
2:01:50
He's a swinger on that Porter. But he was an employee of Texas
2:01:57
Instruments when they got married. But I had later heard that he was a
2:02:04
carpenter, and I was like, where did they get this carpenter thing from?
2:02:09
And I'm not sure, maybe he was a carpenter later in life,
2:02:12
but all the documents show that he was working for Texas Instruments And there was
2:02:19
a period there, and I think it was in nineteen sixty five where he
2:02:23
beat the hell out of Marina and they had to go to court and she
2:02:26
got a protective order against him and all this stuff, and the judge basically
2:02:30
said, you folks, quit your nonsensing around and get back together and live
2:02:36
your life. That was basically what the judge told him. And they did
2:02:44
yep. And so this is a document in early January. And of course
2:02:50
declin Ford, who is an agent, is the agent in quotations. I
2:02:57
love that term, the agent like James Murin, an advisor of Marina Oswald,
2:03:00
devised on February first, sixty five, Marina's Oswalt's present plans or were
2:03:05
to turn to Richardson Texas. He stated, he does not have a great
2:03:12
deal of information concerning Marina Oswalt's present activities other than he is she is attending
2:03:17
her classes at University of Michigan, does not know any acquaintances. Ford advised
2:03:28
his wife and he, along with Marina, had attended a New Year's party
2:03:30
rob with various actors from the Dallas Theater Center. He advised Marina, and
2:03:36
I mean, can this come from anyone? But the Fords had become acquainted
2:03:42
with various at this point, various of these actors various so not one actor
2:03:47
multiple and is very possible one of these actors had a friend or relative in
2:03:56
Detroit, with whom he had suggested that Marina contact upon her arrival in Michigan.
2:04:00
Of course, that's where the English Language class week class. Ford advised
2:04:08
he would contact Dallas office concerning any information he receives concerning activities of Marina Oswaltz.
2:04:16
My money is on the fact that she left some DNA in Detroit.
2:04:20
Yes, So next we have here. This is in March fifteenth of fifty
2:04:29
five, and this is from the Special Agents in charge of Detroit, which
2:04:33
you think would be the home office for the University of Michigan. And I
2:04:39
went to school in Michigan, Michigan State represent So it's like an hour and
2:04:44
a half ish from Detroit. Actually University of Michigan is closer, but eight
2:04:50
miles closer than that, Yeah, a mile exactly, Doctor John C.
2:04:58
Catford, Director English Language Institute, University of Michigan advice. So here they
2:05:03
have the head of the language school being informant as well. I mean in
2:05:11
the sixties, I mean everyone was an informant. I feel that subject completed
2:05:16
her course of training at the University of Michigan sixty five and was to depart
2:05:20
in Arbor and return to her family in Dallas, Texas. I'm sure he
2:05:26
meant Richardson. He advised that Richard subject gave no indication of returning for subsequent
2:05:31
enrollment at the University of Michigan. On receipt of verification of subjects residents at
2:05:38
Dallas Detroit will close its file. So this special agent in charge is like,
2:05:44
please, when she gets back to Dallas, get me out of here.
2:05:48
Let me close this file. And this, mister Rob is relating to
2:05:58
the marriage of of Marina and mister Porter. And this is an urgent FBI
2:06:05
document on six' one, nineteen sixty five. Urgent, very urgent, as
2:06:11
you'll see by the wording missus declin Ford. So you have not mister but
2:06:15
missus as well. Right, I'm sure they had different roles in a sense
2:06:19
in terms of like maybe Marina talks about like the the woman things more at
2:06:27
that time. Right, a friend of the subject advice today Marina is to
2:06:30
be married today. Thanks for repeating that twice. To Kenneth J. Porter,
2:06:38
an employee of Texas Instruments, Dallas. Missus Ford stated that Porter and
2:06:42
Marina have known each other for approximately three weeks. Rob. Marina loves those
2:06:48
whirlwind romances. Man he's a catch. I mean, you can't deny me.
2:06:55
I think she knew Oswald for like three weeks before you. Yeah,
2:06:58
that's you too, and probably Webster for less. If well you sex me
2:07:03
is so good, I marry you. Uh investigating on it, but on
2:07:11
it an investigation reflects Sport is employed Texas Instruments, Dallas since September one fifty
2:07:19
nine in Materials and Controls Dallas Division as technician foreman, salary blah blah blah,
2:07:29
residents blah blah blah, his high school. He has a high school
2:07:32
education. Personal record is satisfactory. Missus Ford advised Marina and Porter will be
2:07:39
married at some small town in Oklahoma across this Texas line to avoid waiting period
2:07:45
in Texas. Damn they were in a rush. Rob Yeah, man,
2:07:50
you gotta get it done. Gotta get it in when you get it,
2:07:54
we gotta get it in. Shot knocked her up. She Dallas Indus's negative
2:08:01
concerning Porter, so they obviously looked into him. Uh. Marina presently owns
2:08:07
home and blah blah blah richardson Texas Uh, and which residents she will maintain
2:08:15
after a marriage. So here they are. I think this is like a
2:08:18
before the wedding. It happened this day or the next day, and it
2:08:22
actually uh so they did try to get married in Oklahoma, Rob, and
2:08:28
they got a blood test there. I didn't know that in the sixties you
2:08:31
needed to get blood tests to con through amerits. I'm swear to God.
2:08:35
Yeah, because they figured you weren't related, you know. Oh yeah,
2:08:39
was that the reason you all got the same blood type? Y'all can't get
2:08:43
married. Y'all go ahead of me and bred children, and we have a
2:08:48
few I found a few articles which are based Freddie Marina must have had that
2:08:58
good good you know what I mean, like good, not good good honey
2:09:07
honey pot. Yeah, that's that's a PG thirteen word in a sense,
2:09:13
right, Rob, Do you want to know a funny sport? Since I
2:09:16
think this, I don't think my girlfriend will get two hours into the two
2:09:20
hours ten minutes. What do you mean? I accuse her of being a
2:09:26
honey trap. I'm like, you're just a honey trap. I say this
2:09:28
to her consistently and she gets pissed at it. But but I want to
2:09:35
show one more thing, Rob, because I know we're getting really long here.
2:09:39
That's what we are. But yeah. I mean, hey, we're
2:09:43
along like James Ubermartin. Allegedly I came across this, Rob, and this
2:09:52
is going to tie this up nicely. Three twenty three sixty five newspaper article
2:09:58
from the Dallas Times Herald, and it talks about Marina going after lesas state.
2:10:05
And this is very interesting because I was wondering if lee'sas state meant like
2:10:09
intellectual property, copyright books type of thing right, or did it mean actual
2:10:18
property. And to be honest, I'm not as I'm sure Marina Oswald has
2:10:22
filed and appointed three appraisers to or has filed an application blah blah in Dallas
2:10:33
County Probate Court to become an administrator of the estate of Lee Harvey Oswalt.
2:10:39
The community administration application was filed last week and Judge Bartlett's Court Judge Lou Starrett
2:10:50
appointed three appraisers to inventory the property owned by Lee Harvey Oswalt. I don't
2:10:56
know about you, Rob, but I didn't know any physical property in terms
2:11:00
of houses or land that Lee Harvey owned. I could be wrong, we
2:11:07
didn't. I'm sure they're talking about personal property like his rings, his clothes,
2:11:09
his rifles, guns, anything. She could probably smell to get money.
2:11:13
That are an FBI custody I think, or she's trying to get this
2:11:22
property back, and you have to wonder if that's for money. But the
2:11:26
next thing. The appraisers are Robert M. Martin Junior, not a J.
2:11:33
Martin, but it still counts. And Chuck Carsonal Blaylock, both local
2:11:41
attorneys. They got a lot of attorneys in Dallas named Martin and Harry Holmes
2:11:46
McKay. I'm just Harry H. McKay administrative assistant, So I guess one
2:11:52
of the appraisers was an administrative assistant. If Missus Oswalt is named administrator,
2:11:58
she will handle the property. Okay, that's okay, But this is really
2:12:01
interesting here. The application points out that Oswald left no will and has interest
2:12:09
in the community. Property consequently passes to their two children, June and Rachel.
2:12:16
Application has filed in federal district Court and it has included the declaration of
2:12:20
her intention to become a US citizen. Missus Oswalt's attorney, William Blaylock,
2:12:26
has sixty days to file an inventory of Oswalt's property. So I'm wondering,
2:12:31
is that like tell us what the items are and we'll let you know if
2:12:35
we have them type of thing. I don't know at this time. The
2:12:39
three appraisers, including the Robert Martin junior guy, then decided whether to appoint
2:12:50
the administrator. But the interesting thing is she wasn't an administrator of a trust
2:12:56
right, which is mean you have like kind of carp blanched to kind of
2:13:05
you know, well, I don't think he had any assets like liqual,
2:13:07
right, right, But I think that's what they're talking to trust. They're
2:13:11
either talking about items that Lee had that was in some type of custody that
2:13:15
she could sell or intellectual properties. How I kind of read it, because
2:13:18
I don't think it's physical property. A community administrator differs from administrators of a
2:13:24
trust as normally named, said the judge in that the community administrators are entitled
2:13:33
to settle the estate without further proceedings in court. And that was the sentence
2:13:39
that really put it together for me, because we've talked about how Marina probably
2:13:46
had a case against the FBI in terms of civil court ensuing, and you
2:13:54
know, this is essentially process to give her right. I mean, the
2:14:05
FBI hold the control of everything until the Warren Commission report had come out in
2:14:09
late sixty four, so by then this investigation is done. Yeah, I
2:14:15
know, but the report and the investigation was done in sixty four. The
2:14:18
report came out at the end of September for the beginning of October of sixty
2:14:22
four, so she should have got her stuff back after that is concluded.
2:14:28
But she had to go through these steps to get it. Yes, but
2:14:33
it seems that it's interesting that they because I mean, fun fact, I
2:14:37
used to work on creating trust for clients with merrill Anchel and it wasn't but
2:14:45
I've never I've never efing heard of a community administrator, and I was like,
2:14:50
what is this? And it seems that it's something to make sure that
2:14:54
it doesn't go to court, to settle outside of court. And why would
2:14:58
the FBI not want steps, position and other things to become public record.
2:15:03
I think we answered that in previous episodes. Still a lot to cover up
2:15:07
there, you know, a lot, so they're trying to cover up and
2:15:11
still and it's very interesting. Yeah, and they were watching Marina at various
2:15:18
stages throughout her life, what she was doing, where she was working,
2:15:22
how she was obtaining money, who she was talking to, and so now
2:15:31
we get into the seventies. Is the last thing I got, Joe,
2:15:33
just real quick. And of course everybody knows what happened to George de Mornshield
2:15:39
in the seventies. Before he was called to testify for the House Select Committee,
2:15:45
he allegedly decommissioned himself in Florida. Author Edward Epstein. So you know
2:16:03
a guy that's lived a life like de Mornshield, you know, world traveler,
2:16:11
money, women, kids, nice houses, important friends. People like
2:16:18
that. They don't just donk themselves off for no reason. Okay, you
2:16:26
gotta figure this guy was scared to testify to the House Select Committee. Okay,
2:16:35
So remember when I told you about this dude. Let me show you
2:16:41
all what he looks like, Jay Walton Moore, Okay through the years.
2:16:48
Now, remember I said that he retired allegedly in nineteen seventy seven in the
2:16:54
middle of the House Select Committee on Assassination's investigation. Now, he was called
2:16:58
to test to five and he did admit to meeting with the Moorrinshield And I
2:17:07
have here, man, this is a doozy. This is a CIA document
2:17:13
dated March eighteenth, nineteen seventy seven, and it's from the Dallas Field Office
2:17:20
to the chief of the Domestic Contact Division. Now, this wasn't approved for
2:17:30
release by the CIA until two thousand and six. That tells you anything.
2:17:35
It was not let go in the first first round by any means. Jfk
2:17:43
at. Yeah. The subject is media inquiry into the disappearance of George de
2:17:50
Mornshield, report of alleged CIA agent Morris Bishop meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald before
2:17:58
Kennedy assassination. That's the subject of this memo. And this memo is written
2:18:07
by Jay Walton Moore in nineteen seventy seven. And this thing is mark secret.
2:18:18
It's stamped warning noticed, do not disseminate outside the agency. I mean,
2:18:26
it's all kinds of stuff secret. You name it, all right,
2:18:33
So this is what he says in the memo. Bob Serkin, a news
2:18:39
commentator for FWFAA and Dallas, Texas, called the office on March sixteenth and
2:18:46
asked to talk to Jim Moore. That's he's referring to himself. This is
2:18:50
written by him, Okay. He said he wanted to come by with a
2:18:54
camera crew and interview more concerning his knowledge and connection with Jorge de Mornshield,
2:19:01
who had disappeared somewhere in Europe. See attached clipping from the Dallas Times Herald
2:19:07
of seventeen March. Now, this is when de Mornshield is in Europe with
2:19:13
with Willim Oldmans and Oldmens is like keeping him prisoner in his hotel room or
2:19:18
trying to bang him and all this stuff over there. He ran away,
2:19:22
Yeah, he ran away from his farm. And this was in the book
2:19:28
A Man in Haiti and it's a crazy soy. Yeah, that's a whole
2:19:31
crazy story. More declined to be interviewed. Now this is so weird reading
2:19:37
this how he wrote it in third person right. Moore declined to be interviewed,
2:19:41
at which time Sirkin said that he had some information that Moore should know
2:19:46
about. Morgan declined, no, no, no, I don't want to
2:19:48
hear it, and suggested Circin report his information to the FBI or to the
2:19:54
Sprague Committee. On March seventeenth, Circin again called and said that he had
2:20:00
had some important information to tell Moore. He said that he would not ask
2:20:03
any questions and that the conversation would be off the record. Moore again refused
2:20:09
to see him, but gave him the name and phone number of Dennis Baron.
2:20:13
Moore immediately called Baron, explaining the situation and asked Baron to try to
2:20:16
get Sirkin off his back. After talking to Serkin, Baron called Moore back
2:20:22
and suggested that if Moore refused to discuss the assassination or give Sircin any information,
2:20:30
that he saw no objection to Moore seeing Cirkin, but that Moore should
2:20:33
use his own judgment and the decision should be his and his alone. Intrigued,
2:20:39
Moore called Sirkin back and arranged the meeting. At the meeting, Sirkin
2:20:45
was very cordial. He asked if the name Morris Bishop meant anything to Moore,
2:20:50
and when Moore answered in the negative, Circin advised that a cuban had
2:20:54
reported that he had met with the CIA agent named Morris Bishop and Lee Harvey
2:20:58
Oswald in the five oh five North irv building approximately a month before President Kennedy
2:21:05
was assassinated. The cuban related that at that time the CIA agent had offered
2:21:09
money to Lee Harvey Oswald to kill President Kennedy. Sirkin said that it was
2:21:15
a common knowledge that CIA had offices in the five oh five irve A building
2:21:20
at the time of the assassination, and it was being reported around town that
2:21:24
Morris Bishop was an alias being used by Jim Moore. When Sirkin's ten PM
2:21:31
news program on WFAA, he mentioned the supposed meeting in the five oh five
2:21:37
IRV building between the Cuban Morris Bishop and Lee Harvey Oswald, but did not
2:21:41
mention his meeting with Moore or used Moore's name on his broadcast, as he
2:21:46
had promised not to. Sirkin impressed Moore as an honest, conscientious news reporter
2:21:54
who is not the type of person who would seek cheap publicity at the expense
2:21:58
of the agency. Under the circumstances, it is Moore's opinion that he was
2:22:03
fortunate to have met with Cirkin. If Sirkin had reported on his news broadcast
2:22:07
of a rumored connection between More and Morris Bishop, it is believed that or
2:22:13
that considerable unfavorable publicity might have occurred. Jay Walton Moore, Now look again
2:22:22
at the fella j Walton More. Yes, in nineteen sixty three, there
2:22:31
in the middle, that's what he would have looked like when he allegedly met
2:22:35
with Lee Harvy Oswald using the alias of Morris Bishop. Get it more Morris
2:22:41
Bishop. I do. And do you think that that resembles the sketch of
2:22:48
you know, Maurice Bishop that allegedly Vessiana gave. Yeah, that was allegedly
2:23:00
David Atley Phillips. Uh, that's what they try to say. But what
2:23:03
if it was really, yeah, Jay Walton Moore and not him, because
2:23:11
I will pop let me pop up a picture of this this ahead of time
2:23:20
me lodge, Okay. And I don't know, of course who Maurice Bishop
2:23:26
was, but you would think in theory, Jay Walton Moore domestic contact division
2:23:35
over someone who was pretty much in in propaganda, right, which would be
2:23:41
David Atley Phillips right there you go. Look, yeah, now remember nineteen
2:23:48
sixty three, he's going to be in the middle. Possibly, very I
2:24:00
say possible for sure. I never quite believed the athlete Phillips Bishop believe Phillips
2:24:09
either, But what if it was this dude. It's very plausible in my
2:24:13
opinion. And what I was saying was I think that would be more plausible
2:24:18
than him being more Jay Walt Moore than David that Lee Phillips, because I
2:24:24
don't think David Lee Phillips was meeting with assets or or agents. No,
2:24:31
he's he's a top dog. He's not meeting with cutouts, right, but
2:24:37
this guy would and you're damn right bungled Wow Wow and South of the West
2:24:46
with an epic comment looks like D. B. Cooper. Wow that one.
2:24:52
Oh lordie, Oh lordy, Lordy, lordy. But anyway, Joe,
2:24:58
I think we got to call it. Man, it's been the longest
2:25:00
one ever. I know, well it was it was due and our people
2:25:05
stayed with us. Man, appreciate you guys hanging out with us for all
2:25:09
this time. You know, we love you guys, and we love hanging
2:25:13
out with you and talking about the assassination. And it's cool seeing some new
2:25:18
folks coming in and talking and yes, it's it's always good to see for
2:25:24
sure. I hope you guys enjoyed it. And Joe, you got anything
2:25:31
to tell the people Before we get up out of high I just want to
2:25:33
say, have a great weekend, every one, and we will see you
2:25:37
next Friday. We might have been have a surprise in the meantime. TBD,
2:25:43
TB TSBD TSBD. All right, folks, that's it for us for
2:25:50
this week. Make sure to like this show, subscribe to the Channel and
2:25:58
Ring the Bell get notified every time we go live or drop an episode.
2:26:03
We really appreciate it and uh yeah, we'll see you next time. And
2:26:07
from the bottom of our little hearts peace, We are hm weoll wow