Latest / The Dave Allen Show / 05/24/2023 580 Live with Dale Cooper - Andrew Donaldson, Ian Sherr

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05/24/2023 580 Live with Dale Cooper - Andrew Donaldson, Ian Sherr · The Dave Allen Show

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HS the Voice of Charleston. I'm Del Cooper. Thank you so much for
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tuning in on this Wednesday morning, and man, it is a beautiful morning
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the Charleston area, things are looking very nice out there. That's going to
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be kind of the way things are for the next couple of days until some
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weather moves in this weekend, at least the last time that I checked.
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But it is nice to be filling in for Dave Allen this week, having
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the opportunity to go one on one in this hour that we have every morning
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here at one five e w CNHs one five eighty Live, trying to continue
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to bring you some of the stories of the day. Of course, Dave
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does the show the way the Dave does with the folks that he has,
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and then um, I try to bring in the similar guests to present the
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information, but also folks that I have that I have relationships with, and
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I look forward to bringing that throughout today. Danny Jones will be back with
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me tomorrow, by the way, speaking of which he'll be sitting in with
1:38
me for the entire hour, and I'll have a guest host on Friday,
1:40
which will be Andrew Donaldson, who is also my guest this morning. Just
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for the first segment, we're going to talk a little bit about a feature
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that he has in Washington Examiner magazine. Governor Jim Justice has been for the
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Senate as well as maybe some other stuff that has to do with West Virginia.
1:56
Andrews a proud Appalachian, writes for multiple outlets and has a unique perspective
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on the Mountain states. We're going to get to Andrew in just a moment,
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That's interesting. I've saw the news is from Jackson, Michigan. I
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used to live there and for a while, and he played. I saw
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owned in Jackson. I walked across the street and Watchington play. He came
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into my store. Before he came into my store in Jackson once years and
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years ago. So the NWS is going to be there on August sixth.
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If you have any calls comments this morning, you can get and on the
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in Charleston. That is the Pigley Wiggy over on Bigley. Let's go ahead
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and bringing our guest for this first segment. By the way, the second
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half hour today, I'm going to have Ian Sheer on. For those of
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you that have listened to UM Hotline in the past, the show out in
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the afternoon with Dave Weigly. Ian Sheers was our long time tech correspondent.
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Worked for various outlets, The Wall Street Journal, Wired, and most recently
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for Seeing That the shrinking of the media industry. Unfortunately, Ian was caught
4:08
up in that, but he's a senior writer that's been around for a long
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time now, he's doing it independently and has some really good thoughts on artificial
4:15
intelligence and privacy. You know, with all the TikTok news that's been going
4:18
around, there's a lot of things going on with that, and he's basically
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an expert in this field. He's been carry he's been covering it for decades.
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So Ian she is going to join us in the second half hour.
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We're gonna talk about those things. You're welcome to get your calls and questions
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in on that as well. So Andrew Donaldson is joining me. Now that's
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a long way around to bringing Andrew on air this morning. Not the first
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time he's been on. He's been on with me several times before. He's
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been on with Dave Allen as well, but we welcome him back to the
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air here in Charleston. Andrew, good morning, How you doing this morning.
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I'm great, man, always thrilled to be on with you right here,
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and this is hometown radio for me, so I love it home team
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and excited about it. Man. I always like having you, and I
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love your perspective. You have a very measured, but a proud perspective of
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the Appalachic region, of West Virginia in particular, and of the state,
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and it always makes me feel better to talk to, you know, someone
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that's also proud of the state and is able to talk about it realistically though,
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which I think is an important thing to do. Yeah, it's I've
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been blessed to kind of been around the world a couple of times now,
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so it's always interesting to have the perspective of being other places and writing nationally.
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So when I write something for a national publication that gets to combine that
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back with West Virginia, I try to keep that in mind too. It's
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like we tend to get a little insular in West Virginia sometimes on how we're
5:30
perceived by others and people on the outside we've seen over and over and over
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again they kind of just do the narrative or the generic or whatever the stereotype
5:38
is and move along. And so I feel like you sometimes have a responsibility
5:42
to try to bridge those two things when you do what I do, where
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I do have a more of a national platform and get to write for a
5:46
national outlet. But you know, this isn't just a state as my friends,
5:50
as my family. I'll be coming up this weekend from Moor all day
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weekend up in Somersville with all my family. I got to keep that in
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mind. And you get that responsibility to try to bridge those two things.
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And it's like, well, no, this thing is really complicated there.
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You were just talking with Danny about this the other day. If you look
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over the politics and the culture West Virginia for the last forty years, basically
6:10
my lifetime, how much it's changed. It's hard to fit that into like
6:14
a little SoundBite or a tweet or a Facebook post. And there's a lot
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of nuances on what's been going on the last twenty thirty years that folks missed
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and it's fascinating stuff like everybody should be able to dig into it, and
6:24
I think things like the Senate race is going to really bring that out.
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Yeah, and that's something I wanted to talk about. And we also have
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some follow up on that, a little bit more about West Virginia, some
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positive stuff about the state. We'll get to after this. But you're you're
6:35
really a unique person. And I know Washington Examiner contacted you for their magazine
6:40
feature on Governor Justice and his run for the Senate, and you're a unique
6:44
voice in this perspective as you you've been around, you've been around the world,
6:46
you've been in the military, you write for national publication, so you
6:48
have you have both the outside end perspective and the inside out perspective when it
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comes to h to viewing things about West Virginia, which I think is can
6:56
be very can be very very unique perspective sometimes because not everybody that's here gets
7:01
out and not everybody that's out gets here. So being able to do kind
7:04
of both it's pretty good. So your article, I encourage everyone to check
7:08
it out that it's at the Washington examin our magazine. I've linked in on
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our social medias this morning, so you can go and find that article and
7:13
read it. They gave you plenty of room to kind of talk about Governor
7:15
Justice a little bit. What was your what was kind of your framing of
7:18
the article? What was Washington Examiner looking for and introducing Governor Justice to the
7:23
national audience. Well, I cheated a little bit when I pitched it to
7:27
set the because I wrote for I wrote a big thing on Joe Mansion,
7:30
and about two years ago there was a cover story for him, so they're
7:32
like, hey, this is like a book in let's do the gym Justice
7:34
saying. But I pitched it to him first because they do these wonderful caricatures
7:39
when you go to the link and look at it. They do these caricature
7:42
artworks for their covers. So I actually pitched him Baby Dog and Jim Justice
7:46
first, and I was like, you've got to do a character of baby
7:48
Dog, Like it's going to be amazing when your artist gets a hold of
7:53
it in the pictures. So I actually pitched him the artwork first before I'd
7:57
even ever wrote it. I kind of cheated a little bit because I was
7:59
like, hey, I can get paid off this image and then I just
8:01
go right the piece. But you know, Jim Justice is such a unique
8:05
character. It's just fun to write about him. Just take all the politics
8:07
and everything out. He's just a really unique guy. You have this guy
8:11
who's built this, you know, by some estimates, at one point,
8:16
over a billion dollar empire. But it's a very low key company like he's
8:20
almost kind of he's a lot like Trump in some ways, but in other
8:22
ways. He doesn't have his name on buildings. You can't even really find
8:26
the Justice family companies unless you go look for him. They run a very
8:28
insular it's the same small group of friends and family for years. At the
8:33
same time, he's this larger in life person, but he's also this very
8:35
you know, you can find him meeting in apple piece. He drives himself.
8:39
You know, the folksy stuff is not an act. That's how he
8:41
really is. He lived in the same house in Louisburg for forever. You
8:46
know, It's it's almost like these contradictory parts of him and it just makes
8:50
him really fascinating. Then when he got into politics, of course, you
8:52
have the switching parties back and forth. You have his I call it a
8:56
friend of me. You know, him and Joe Manson have known each other
8:58
for her ever. They're friends, they're oponents. They'll be back to friends
9:01
at some point. Right now, there are opponents. It's a lot of
9:03
fascinating stuff just in the aggregate of look at all the some parts of this
9:07
guy that doesn't make a lot of sense, But then when you put them
9:09
all together and you put it in gym justice, it's really worked out well
9:13
for you. It's an incredible almost duality with the man himself, because you
9:18
know, when you go maybe towards you know, left leaning publications or just
9:22
people that are that are trying to do due diligence on background and stuff like,
9:26
you have like these massive receipts for debt and different things like than people
9:30
coming after money. That's typical of any wealthy person. So I mean,
9:35
it's kind of hard, Like I understand where those concerns come from, and
9:37
I have some of those too, but it looks particularly awful because we're focusing
9:41
in on one particular billionaire. If you take any particular billionaire and you do
9:46
that same kind of research into them, you're going to find those exact same
9:48
types of court fights and different things like that. I'm not justifying it the
9:54
pun intended in any in any way, but I'm just saying that that's just
9:56
the truth of the matter. We don't focus on extremely wealthy people lot.
10:00
So when the warts and all start to come out, it's like, oh,
10:01
my goodness, is that really what happens? The thing that's it's not
10:03
just him, it's all of them now it's part and part. You know,
10:07
the Trump comparisons are inevitable with Jim Justice because they're buddies and because they're
10:09
friends. You know, this is the thing with Trump before he ever became
10:13
present, he was on the back page of the New York papers all the
10:16
time for thirty years. Yeah, and his business says he was always in
10:20
court. He likes being sued. He likes suing people. They like it.
10:22
It's part and parcel with part of their business. Somebody like Jim Justice.
10:26
When you have those kind of businesses, especially when it's something you know,
10:30
like the coal stuff, things like that, that's going to have not
10:31
just business lawsuits, but you have environmental lawsuits, you have regulatory lawsuits.
10:35
He has this now. The new thing with the bank out of Virginia,
10:39
the long running things is banking the debt because well, interest rates point up.
10:43
When you're talking about a millionaire, you know your interest rate goes up,
10:46
you're talking points for them. If the interest rate goes up a quarter
10:48
to a point, that could be tens of millions of dollars on outstanding loans,
10:52
because those are hundreds and hundreds and millions dollars loans. It's a different
10:54
world from what you know folks like us deal with. So it sounds a
10:58
lot worse than it is. But then you know, of course there's probably
11:01
some stuff in there that needs to be supported out. Like I talked about
11:03
in the article. The thing is, none of this stuff is new New
11:07
right folks have known it. It's either gone over the heads or under the
11:09
notice of most of the people West Virginia. They can find it if they
11:13
want to. They all have Google in the palm of their hand. They
11:16
just haven't proven to be really interested in any of it. So, like
11:18
right now, there's a lot of push in the national media, especially from
11:22
the left and progressives and people that are going to be against Jim Justice.
11:24
They're really hammering that stuff. I just don't know how much it's gonna work,
11:28
because it's been out there. None of it's really new, and so
11:30
far it hadn't really gotten much traction. And when we talk about the similarities
11:33
between Justice and former President Trump, I think that's one of them is that
11:37
you kind of buy the parcel when you when you buy the person, and
11:41
for somebody to remind you what you bought, it doesn't really do a lot
11:43
of good. It's like, hey, this guy has this, this,
11:46
and this, Yeah, I knew that. Where do you go from there?
11:50
I mean, well, it's funny because you go, like if I
11:52
told you in the aggregate, you've been doing news radio for a long long
11:56
time. If ten years ago I sat down Dale Cooper and said, hey,
11:58
we're gonna have a governor that we're gonna have to sue him to go
12:01
to Charles Like that sounds ridiculous, but it's something that just gets laughed off
12:05
with Jim Justice. And I know they had a little bit of a thing
12:07
and you know, you got the appearance of it. And yes, that's
12:11
political too, because that's part of the you know, they're building the narrative
12:13
of oh, he's an absentee governor, he's not there. The problem they
12:16
have with the absentee governor and I'm one of the people that said that,
12:18
Let's just be clear. I said that before the COVID thing. Then the
12:20
COVID thing happened, and all of a sudden, Jim Justice and charges of
12:24
everything. So sometimes real life gets in the way of narratives and even stuff
12:26
that doesn't look right. But if you take the whole of Gym Justice,
12:31
even that it fits into his persona. You know, he still lives in
12:35
his ranch house in Lewisburg, even though he's you know, multimillionaire. He
12:39
still I mentioned it in the piece to Washington posted a big write up on
12:41
Jim Justice years ago when he first bought the Greenbrier and how he was revitalizing
12:46
and the reporter had met with Jim Justice during the day. He's sitting at
12:48
the Applebe's and Lewisburg, just you know, writing his stuff and eating wings
12:52
or whatever he's doing. And in comes Jim Justice with his entire basketball team.
12:56
They just pile in and Justice waves at him and waves his Manila envelope
13:00
folder at him. And it's this twenty five million dollar land deal that he
13:03
had to close by midnight. And this is like eleven fifteen at night,
13:07
and he's just sitting in a booth at Apple be surrounded by all these you
13:09
know, high school girls hollering and carry him on after basketball and he waves
13:13
a reporter and he points out and goes, I'm going to close this deal
13:16
right quick. It fits into who he is part of Trump. Whether you
13:20
love him, hate him, indifferent, whatever, you never don't think he's
13:24
not being Trump. And Jim Justice has that quality too. Is like,
13:26
even when he does something that's a little questionable, a little shady or questionable,
13:30
it fits into it's such a fascinating mist and he gets a yeah,
13:31
he gets a pass on it, and it's a great kind of insight on
13:35
if you're going to attack him politically, you're gonna have to understand that.
13:39
It's the same thing with Trump. They're true to who they are, so
13:41
people kind of give him a pass on this stuff. I don't know what's
13:43
going to happen in the primaries. I do want to talk just a minute
13:46
about or the general election. I do want to talk just a minute about
13:48
the primaries and then move on to talk about the other thing that you and
13:52
I were discussing a little bit off air before we wrap things up. But
13:54
the one thing that I think is a little underrated, and and I'm not
13:58
an expert. Because of my afternoon show, I don't really dive into this
14:01
stuff as much as I would if this was my life living. But one
14:05
of the things that I look at with Governor Justice and one of the things
14:09
I think that maybe is a little underrated from from this perspective, and I
14:13
think that Congress of Mooney needs to tread very softly when it comes to trying
14:16
to out Trump Justice or too in some way to hurt his reputation as as
14:24
being against Trump in some way, because if you remember back during COVID,
14:28
every governor in this country who was implementing mask mandates, different types of different
14:35
types of mitigation strategies and stuff like that, almost every single one of those
14:41
governors came under then President Trump's thumb as being against him in some way,
14:46
shape or form. The one exception, the one exception that never got any
14:50
heat, not one thing said, no matter what the mandates were, no
14:52
matter what happened, was Jim Justice of West Virginia. Yeah, he's one
14:58
of the very few people that came out of COVID looking better than he went
15:01
in. And again, I'm somebody that's pretty critical of the governor on a
15:03
whole lot of things for various reasons. He handled that as well as any
15:09
national or state official you can find anywhere. He's one of those rare and
15:13
he's also it's a great point coup because he's one of those rare people who
15:16
can be endorsed by Trump and have a relationship with Trump and he doesn't come
15:20
off as subserviance Trump or less than Trump, because what happens is a lot
15:24
of these people chase Trump and they end up looking like a caricature of Trump,
15:26
and he doesn't because he's still got enough Garrava toss to resurrect that word
15:31
for a minute. He's still Jim Justice doing it. And it all fits
15:33
together, so it kind of all goes together. It's a great point.
15:35
It's something they did. The thing about movie just real quick about money.
15:39
The thing you got to remember with Mooney in this club for growth money.
15:41
We've seen this playbook. They're going to run what's called the Ted Bud playbook.
15:45
Down in North Carolina. They took a backbitch house representatiment m named Ted
15:48
Budd, who is now the US Senator. He won that race against a
15:50
former governor and Pat McCrory, and they backed him. They spent a ton
15:54
of money, and he won that race. I actually interviewed the guy for
15:56
radio down in North Carolina and Wilmington, and they're like, no, we're
16:00
gonna win. We're gonna win. Nobody thought he was gonna win. Any
16:02
won. That's the playbook. They're gonna run. The big difference here,
16:04
though, is exactly what you just said. He's not gonna get the Trump
16:08
endorsement, Mooney isn't and his polling number when Justice is not good. But
16:12
they're gonna put a ton of money in that race. They're gonna spend a
16:15
ton of money attacking Justice. We'll see if they ding him up and he
16:18
I don't think he's gonna win, but Canny ding him up. I don't
16:19
know. But again, it's gonna be that thing with Jim Justice. He's
16:23
just teflone. He can tell the folksy story, hold up, babydog,
16:26
and people forget all the problems. Yeah. I just can't wait until,
16:30
like at a debate where there's not probably not would be one, but if
16:33
there was and Congress and Mooney said something about, well you're the one that
16:36
that put in mass mandates and restrictions and things like that, and then the
16:40
governor could just simply say, yeah, the president, let me do mean,
16:45
he got an even better but he's got an even better one line he
16:48
go. It worked. Actually, national media, the first three or four
16:51
months of COVID people forget. They have sure remembered. People were pointing to
16:55
West Virginia is like, why does West Virginia doing right? Right? I
16:57
did national media hits. I did to hit for Times Radio in the UK
17:03
about this and they're like, what is it with West Virginia where the gout?
17:06
And we talked about like, well, it has an aged population,
17:07
they're used to public health. There's some built in stuff there that, you
17:11
know, kind of grease the wheel to do it a little bit. And
17:14
then Jim Justice and baby Dog in the vaccine campaign. We came out looking
17:18
pretty good in that thing from the national thing and people forget, so I
17:19
think Justice can just look at him and go yeah, and it worked.
17:22
Yeah, that's the end of the debate. Where do you go from there?
17:25
That's right. You pointed something out to me, and I wanted to
17:26
get this in before we have to to cutch a loose because I love to
17:30
share positive things about the stating you shared a little piece with me right before
17:33
here. In fact, it kind of diverted where I was going to go
17:36
with this because I liked this so much. You had somebody who was traveling
17:38
through the state, who, I believe you said, as a travel writer,
17:41
a fairly well known travel writer, and they and they made some observations
17:45
driving through West Virginia and through Charleston, and I thought that what you shared
17:48
with me was quite nice. Yeah, I'm going to write it up next
17:51
week from a weekly column and fair tribute. But my buddy, Philip,
17:55
this is a guy. Look, he went to Columbia, he went to
17:56
West Point, he was an army guy. He's been a producer for Fox
18:00
News. This is somebody that's been around a lot. Just sent me a
18:02
DM real quick. He said, Hey, I'm driving from Morgantown to Charleston.
18:06
What do I need to do. I'm gonna go to the Gorge,
18:07
but other than that, And I just told him, I was like,
18:08
dude, all you gotta do is drive down in US sixty from the Gorge
18:11
to Charleston. That's all you gotta do. And he sent me this multiple
18:15
DM. I'm gonna write a whole piece about it. But the other thing
18:18
he did that you folks need to listen to for the WCHS audience. He
18:22
spent the night in Charleston and he and you know, he stopped at Cathedral
18:26
Falls and stopped at Fall's View and drove down and all the beautiful parts of
18:27
that job. It's my favorite drive of anywhere in the world. He was
18:30
so confident. He's like this, this is a growing city, and I'm
18:33
like, well, not really demographically, but it's light years better than it
18:37
was when I was growing up. You know, I don't take for granted
18:40
how much progress the City of Charleston has made in beautification, not just Capitol
18:45
Street. You know, Gomark Ballpark. I grew up going to Powell Park.
18:48
Do not take that ballpark for granted. Just trust me on that one.
18:51
You don't have to look through a ten foot high channel link fence down
18:52
the third baseline. You know exactly what I'm talking about. And I love
18:55
what pow Yeah, I liked it too, but it wasn't a great It
18:59
wasn't a great ballpark. People. We laugh about those things that when we're
19:02
talking about in policy wise, places like the City of Charleston's been pretty well
19:06
run, you know, regardless of some of the inner politics. It looks
19:10
good. And this outside person who has a lot of experience other places,
19:12
he was a producer for Fox News, and for him to send me emails
19:15
like Charleston's a great city. You can tell they care. You can tell
19:18
they're growing. They look like any of the major you know, small southern
19:22
cities that are growing. You can tell they got restaurants for the younger generation.
19:25
You can tell they've redone it. People need to hear that outsiders are
19:29
coming in and seeing progress. I know, we bang on the problems because
19:32
that's our job, and that's how you fix things. There's progress, and
19:34
we don't ever want to take it for granted that people from the outside are
19:37
looking to West Virginia and going man, that place is beautiful and they got
19:41
amenities, and they got stuff I want to do, and then they go
19:42
online and tell other people. It's a small step, but those are the
19:45
steps how we improve the future. I so appreciate hearing that because because I
19:49
do. There are times like just yesterday I was sharing that my frustration still
19:53
with my mom, who lives in Beaumont forty five minutes away from capital city
19:56
of the United States. When her power goes out, thirty minutes later for
20:00
goes out, when her phone goes out, she's a twenty minute walk or
20:02
a fifteen minute drive away from sales service. To me, that's an unacceptable
20:04
situation to be in a in a state in the United States of America.
20:07
However, take a step back from those things, and progress is coming in
20:11
other areas, and it makes me feel better to read some of these observations
20:15
from outside folks. Yeah, I just I just heard about this week at
20:18
Fake Tribute in my weekly columns, like you have you have the third summer
20:22
now of the New River Gorge to being National Park in ten minutes Upthroad and
20:25
High Co. They're still trying to get water that ain't you know, sultw
20:26
sludge right, you know, And I went to Church and High Co the
20:30
whole time growing up. I know, you know that that's just the reality
20:32
for it. But you know, the County Commission's working on it, and
20:34
they're getting these block rants and stuff. Because there's a national park. Things
20:37
like tourism are great. Things like sporting events like the big you know sports
20:41
complex are going to build in Charleson. That's all great, but getting the
20:44
money from that into the local hands of the people in the businesses, it
20:48
doesn't have the balls most as you still have to have local government kind of
20:51
take care of that, and the communities got to hold the local government accountable
20:53
to make sure you get those kind of funds. But it all works if
20:56
we all work together on it. I know it sounds cokey, but it
20:59
works if we just kind of all do it together and keep building up our
21:02
communities in our state. People want to come see us. We just gotta
21:03
give him a good reason too. Andrew, I mentioned a couple of things
21:07
there, and I want you to point the end of that direction as well
21:07
if you If you check out the Fayett Tribune dot com, h Andrew has
21:11
a weekly article on there that he's been putting up in he just talked about,
21:15
just mentioned a local government just a little bit. That was his most
21:17
recent feature. That's what That was our second thing we were going to talk
21:18
about this morning, but I wanted to get that positive piece about West VIRGII
21:22
in there. But I encourage you to head on over to uh Fayett Tribune
21:25
dot com check it out. Andrew's articles are over there that he writes weekly.
21:27
Over there, you can find him over at Ordinary Times magazine. You
21:30
still right at where where else can folks find yet? Oh, all over
21:33
the place Ordinary Times dot com, where I got to be the manager managing
21:37
editor. I can't even say it. They're gonna pay me enough state correctly,
21:41
but we gotta do that. I gotta write the big piece for Jim
21:44
Justice in Washington examin and I appreciate that that was the cover story for last
21:47
issue. Make sure you check that out. And then I'm on the Twitter
21:51
of course four for the fire. You can look me up there. I'm
21:52
all over the place. And if you really miss me that much, you
21:55
only got to go one day without me. I'm gonna be hanging out with
21:57
Coope again on Friday because it's very if you in fact, you're still my
22:00
Twitter header by the way, you and me studio there, there's very look.
22:04
I've I've got to do a lot of media stuff and I've been very
22:07
blood Nothing excites me more than doing media in West Virginia. So I'm excited
22:11
to see I'll see you all on Friday, Andrew, I appreciate it,
22:12
man, Thanks for coming on and I'll talk to you on Friday. I
22:15
appreciate it, Yes, sir, anytime. All right, man, that's
22:17
Andrew Donaldson joining us, talking a little bit about Jim and justice and some
22:19
good stories from outside about West Virginia. I like hearing about that stuff.
22:23
That means we need to take a break though. Ian She's gonna join me
22:25
when we come back. Ian is an independent tech writer now. He's been
22:29
with Wall Street Journal, with CNAT, with Wired. He's he's one of
22:33
the heavy hitters in the tech journalism industry. I wouldn't call him a personal
22:37
friend, but a long acquaintance now. And Ian is nice enough to come
22:41
one air and and do a little radio with this, and I'm looking forward
22:44
to getting his insights. Haven't had him in a while, so I'm looking
22:45
forward to talk to Ian Sheer. That's coming up. He's from CNA and
22:48
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Edward Jones Member SIPC. Listen to two five at elve w C HS The
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call three zero four four four zero eleven O one three zero four four four
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zero one one zero one five HS The Voice of Charleston. If you miss
25:32
any portion of this program, of course, you can catch them on podcasts
25:33
after the SHOWWCHS network dot com slash Podcasts, where you can find all of
25:37
our podcasts that we have here for our live shows as well as feature interviews,
25:42
public service announcements, and things along those lines. You can find over
25:45
on that STREAMWCHS network dot com slash podcast I'd like to welcome on to the
25:51
phone lines now and I'm really looking forward to this. To be honest with
25:53
Ian Sheer was a longtime tech correspondent for US during the afternoon show on the
25:57
Hotline when he worked at Seen that Unfortunately, our industry has some tumultuous times
26:03
from time to time. Ian right now as an independent tech writer, long
26:07
time in the industry, and there's nobody whose opinion I value more when it
26:11
comes to a lot of things that has to do with the crossroads of tech.
26:14
And I'm really glad that Ian's on the radio with this this morning in
26:15
Good morning. How you doing, man, Good morning. You are way
26:18
too kind to me. Thank you. It's good to be here. Man.
26:22
I am so so nice to talk to you. I can't I don't
26:23
know exactly how long it's been, but it's been maybe at least a year,
26:27
and maybe longer than that. I don't really know. There's something like
26:30
that, but you get to have a lot of fun with a bra who
26:33
is also awesome. There's no question about that. A bar has been great.
26:37
And we have other folks a Lisa that that pinch hits from time to
26:41
time over on the sn Tech segment that we have over on hot Line,
26:44
and we really appreciate and enjoy that. But you were with us for a
26:47
long time and one of our first consistent guests that we had over there,
26:49
and so we're I'm very pleased to have you back here just to kind of
26:52
talk out in the wild a little bit, which is pretty good. Have
26:55
you been doing pretty well? Yeah, you know, I've been trying to
26:59
figure you're at what the next step looks like. As you mentioned, the
27:02
media industries going through a lot of transition right now. Weiss had is going
27:07
through bankruptcy. BuzzFeed News shut down. Literally when I was laid off from
27:14
Cnet, I got a note from BuzzFeed News saying, hey, if you
27:15
want a freelance for us, and then of course that shut down. You
27:21
know, it's it's just a really rough time. And I have friends who
27:25
are in multiple publications. I remember when CNN had their layoffs late last year.
27:29
I you know, my heart was breaking for a lot of them because
27:32
a lot of CNN had really staffed up a lot of people for that CNN
27:34
plus thing that fell apart. And one of the things that you know happened
27:40
was that a lot of them were able to find jobs pretty quickly after those
27:45
layoffs. Well, now fast forward a few months, me and a bunch
27:48
of other people were out of jobs, and the competition is so fierce that
27:52
a lot of the people I know are still looking and it's just it's a
27:56
really tough time right now. It's whenever there's contraction like this, and then
27:59
you get contraction in the in like the hyper specific beats and stuff too.
28:04
I mean, you just got a reshuffling in there, and it's it's difficult.
28:07
And what it's difficult for me is to find voices I trust. You
28:10
know, there's been a lot of changes in the media landscape. I mean,
28:12
I hate to to attribute a lot to the Twitter shake up, but
28:15
frankly, Twitter has become kind of a wildcard. Now. It's harder to
28:19
find consistent voices because you don't really know who's who and who's Sharon would and
28:23
it makes everything a little bit difficult for So it's kind of hard to find
28:26
voices that I trust when it comes to talking about things that's on the cutting
28:30
edge of technology. Yeah, no, I agree with you. And in
28:33
fact, Twitter, especially when it came to the tech world and also sports
28:37
right in entertainment for sure, was a really great place to go and because
28:42
of the shake up that's happened there, which I've written about a ton.
28:48
You know, now you're in this situation where if you see a blue check
28:51
mark next to someone's name, all you know is that they paid eight dollars
28:55
to be able to do that. And we saw especially you know, not
28:57
to get off track, but when the when the fake rumors of the Pentagon
29:03
bombing that happened just a couple of days ago, we're going around. It
29:06
was spread by an account that said it was Bloomberg News and it had a
29:11
blue checkmark, but it was not Bloomberg News. It was just someone who
29:14
was screwing around who had eight dollars and they gave it to Elon Musk and
29:18
they had they were able to uh caused the stock market to crash for a
29:22
couple of minutes. And they used to generate the picture too, if if
29:25
I'm not mistaken, so they used a generation for the believe to be AI.
29:29
Yeah, and I mean it has the hallmarks of being AI. I
29:30
think my favorite response to it was a was a reporter from NBC who who
29:36
literally went on Twitter to give us a to give us a homework assignment.
29:41
Understanding the difference between a pentagon and a rectangle. That you know, the
29:49
building in the picture was a rectangle, but still everyone was convinced that it
29:52
was the pentagon not quite the right shape. Yeah, that's very true.
29:56
Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about there's a lot of conversation.
29:57
It seems like this AI thing. I was doing a little research just
30:00
in our own bits that we do that I do with during hotline and when
30:03
this first started to really get attraction, I was doing kind of a lighthearted
30:07
bit and it was in November December of twenty twenty two, so it was
30:11
such a short amount of time ago that this stuff started getting into the public.
30:15
Uh disco words that we started talking about a lot. Uh chat GBT
30:19
has one hundred million users, already the fastest service to ever get to one
30:22
hundred million users, and there's you know, I hate to call it a
30:26
moral panic there. There needs to be a nuanced discussion about Ah. I
30:30
find that what that the things that you share are kind of walk that you
30:33
know, you understand that there's things that we need to talk about here.
30:37
But it seems like that we already have people that are camping out. Eventually
30:41
there's going to be party platforms, and we're going to see even more of
30:42
a divide once the parties decide what they're going to feel about this. But
30:45
we're already getting a little bit of this divide where people are marrying into a
30:49
narrative, and I'm really worried we're going to miss some of the middle ground
30:52
here of stuff, the hard work that needs to be done. Well,
30:55
what's I think interesting is that just like when computers first showed up, right,
31:00
and I love to bring up this example of what the world was like
31:06
for financial people back before computers came along. They had these massive Excel spreadsheets
31:11
that were printed out on a piece of paper that was enormous, you can
31:15
look it up. And they were on these massive drafting tables and there was
31:19
someone whose job was literally to go through every time the numbers were updated and
31:25
with a little pencil erased the number and then do the math and figure out
31:27
what the number and that cell should be next. And once Excel came out,
31:33
it completely ended so many of those jobs. So you would have thought,
31:37
okay, well, if you were living in that moment, a lot
31:41
of the white collar jobs and a lot of the functional jobs in the financial
31:45
industry are about to disappear. But what we ended up seeing instead was the
31:49
use of Excel exploded around the world, right, and suddenly so many more
31:55
people became financial analysts. And so you know, look, I'm not saying
32:00
AI is not threatening a lot of jobs. There is a lot of examples,
32:05
including at my former employer, where there is conversation about how AI is
32:08
being used in the newsroom, how it's being used in pr, how it's
32:14
being used all over the place, and what it could do to a lot
32:17
of people's jobs. But I think when the shakeout is done and this is
32:22
integrated into our lives. And I've been playing with chat gybt a lot,
32:25
I'm actually paying for it, which not everyone is. I'm really using it
32:30
because I'm trying to learn it. One of the things that I think is
32:34
it's going to be a useful tool, but it's still not going to be
32:38
the thing that's in charge right and right at the end of the day,
32:42
at least until the terminator shows up. We are the people in charge,
32:45
and someone has to be the one actually making decisions. I don't want to
32:50
get too far down in an anecdotal rabbit hole here, because I want to
32:52
make sure that you share plenty of information. But one experience that I have
32:54
and one of the like I had to find out where I was going to
32:58
use artificial intelligence and if it could help me with my job and where it
33:00
could help me with my job. One of the things that I discovered,
33:04
um I was I was wanting to help me write some trivia. I mean
33:07
really a silly, low low velocity type of problem. But sometimes doing trivia
33:13
that's not easy to find answers for real quick. It's kind of hard to
33:15
do when you're doing it originally and you're trying to to find that information.
33:19
So I was using the various ones trying to test which ones would work better
33:22
for me on coming up with trivia questions, and I actually had to stop
33:25
using them all together because the delusions that the AI was having and generating fact
33:30
based like if it was off of baseball statistics or movie statistic or anything along
33:34
those lines, it wholesale made up stuff like stuff that wasn't even close to
33:38
true, and I got I got burned once because I didn't vet every single
33:43
thing. The next time I used it, I've vetted every single thing found
33:45
like foreign correct things I can't use it. It's too much work to although
33:49
it formats things nicely, it's too much work to make sure that it's correct.
33:52
Yeah, I know that they called us hallucinating, which is a nice
33:55
is a nice term for what it what it feels like, which is that
33:59
it's lying. But you know, the thing is that, you know,
34:02
this is part of what I've learned. The limits of it are is that
34:07
really I've kind of come to see CHATTYBT and all of these ais that we're
34:13
going to start seeing more and more of. I see them as kind of
34:15
an exoskeleton. Right. So if you remember the movie Aliens, which if
34:19
you haven't seen, really worth watching. But one of the things in there
34:22
is that they have these machines that the people get into that they use to
34:27
move stuff around, right, and the machines they're in the people drive the
34:30
machines, but the machines are able to act as their arms and legs and
34:35
literally move these very heavy things up and down and left and right, and
34:38
of course it helps them with the Aliens eventually, and these exoskeletons are a
34:45
really critical part of how they're able to do their daily lives. I am
34:51
seeing CHATTYPT in a very similar way, where yes, as an exoskeleton and
34:54
help me do some of the lifting, but I would never trust it to
34:58
decide where things should go right and and so you can't trust it for facts.
35:04
That's that's a hard one. But for example, my son wanted to
35:08
for his seventh birthday. He wanted to have a disaster themed birthday. There's
35:14
a series of books out there called I Survived, which, if you have
35:16
a kid like, it's amazing how And of course the woman who writes these
35:22
is a great writer and she has made bank and a half off of it.
35:25
But one of the things about it is that I said, what kind
35:29
of activities do you do during a birthday party that's about disasters? So I
35:35
looked around. I went to Pinterest, I went to all these places that
35:37
you normally would and there were really just a couple of ideas, like a
35:40
volcano, make a tornado in a bottle, very simple stuff. So then
35:45
I said, okay, well, what what could chat GPT come up with?
35:49
And I and I, you know, I told it that I wanted
35:52
to act like a party planner and come up with a couple of ideas.
35:54
It came up with two dozen, really really fun I he is right,
36:00
and they're not like it didn't rely on facts right. One of them,
36:04
for example, was taking the idea of a volcano in the baking soda,
36:07
which you know everyone's done or seen in school. Well, why not expand
36:13
that instead colorize the some of the some of the baking soda and do chalking
36:22
on the ground and then throw vinegar on it and have it explode right,
36:25
doing stuff like like really fun stuff, having a having a disaster them dance
36:30
off right, which meant I had to come up with a music playlist of
36:34
disaster theme music, and of course chat Gypt was pretty helpful in that one
36:37
too, So they're actually into you know, there are times when you need
36:42
to know where its limits are, but when you're working within its limits,
36:45
it can actually be rather magical. And I won't share a similar story,
36:50
but that's exactly the same thing that I ran across that has helped me immensely,
36:53
not even honestly, it's probably helped me with more stuff personally than professionally
36:57
at this point to some degree, because it give me great one of the
37:00
favorite things that I love to do. I'll go to chat bt and tell
37:02
it to write a story in the style of whatever children's author about whatever my
37:07
daughter, I play mad lives with my daughter, you know, give me
37:08
a place, give me a time, give me what kind of superhero you
37:10
want to be, or whatever. She gives me the basic information. I
37:14
plug that in the chat bt GPT, tell it what author to base it
37:16
off of, and tell it to write me a three thousand words story.
37:19
It writes me a three thousand words story. Then I go to the image
37:22
generation open AI or dally or something like that, and then I take some
37:27
of the cues and create the images to go along with it. Print out
37:30
those images, print out the h I don't print them, I have them
37:32
on my phone, but I put them together. And then she's lays in
37:36
bed with me and we read this book that I literally made in twenty minutes.
37:39
And then the next step, of course, you need to go to
37:43
is the good ones. You need to submit to Amazon, right because because
37:45
they're yeah, because because they're they're technically they're technically or you can technically get
37:51
you do that one. By the way, if if we take a break
37:54
here in a couple of minutes, can you stick with me through the phone
37:57
through the Okay, great, let let's I want to ask you one more
38:00
thing about a good then we're going to come back and talk about prophecies just
38:01
a little bit. As we start seeing this this um this discussion develop over,
38:06
Tom here, what are some of the things that just as listeners out
38:08
there, some things that you think that folks should listen for to try to
38:13
determine I guess I know you can't tell people like what to think, but
38:17
to know that that the conversation is being had on with good faith, because
38:22
the feeling that I'm getting is there's a lot of players in this space right
38:24
now that are that's trying to manipulate the ignorance that a lot of people have
38:28
about this to to to to kind of push legislation, regulation, whatever it
38:34
might be in certain directions, which maybe isn't the best for our overall competitiveness
38:38
and development and things like that. But what do you think is a cautionary
38:42
that folks can listen for? Yeah, I mean, I think one thing
38:45
is obviously extremist positions, right the sky is falling, positions, the you
38:51
know, we're we're we're not that far from Arnold Schwarzenegger coming after all of
38:55
us type of stuff is really not it's not within reason right now right.
39:01
And in fact, one of the things I've always said is that one of
39:05
the things I love about sci fi is that we're having these conversations now so
39:08
that we don't make the mistakes that everyone made in those stories. So that's
39:14
part of you know, always be aware of people who take extremist positions,
39:17
because that just does not it doesn't compute right. At the end of the
39:22
day, there's always nuance to everything, and you need to seek the nuance
39:28
and understand it. And yeah, maybe the extremist position ends up being right,
39:32
but you still should know what that nuance is. The other thing also
39:37
that I would often keep in mind is that you know, I am looking
39:43
really toward people who have really been thinking about the stuff for a very long
39:47
time. So that includes, for example, the head of AI at Meta,
39:52
this guy named Yana Lunkoun, who's very smart, but he even has
39:58
started becoming very defensive about the criticism that has come to him, right,
40:01
And so you know, I'm reading his Twitter account and sometimes he's being defensive,
40:07
and I'm like, dude, you gotta you gotta let people go through
40:09
these emotions. You gotta let people debate these issues and sometimes he has some
40:15
really good ideas. So you have to allow people to be human about this
40:19
as well, right and sometimes be right about it, sometimes be a little
40:22
off about it. Know where they're coming from, right. Obviously, his
40:25
entire career is based on this stuff. So if it turns into something that
40:30
eventually is the terminator, he's going to look really bad. So he is
40:34
going to be really defensive about everything he does. So you have to know
40:37
that type of stuff as well. Is and that's normal journalism, right,
40:40
Know where people are coming from when they say something, because it's not just
40:44
what they say, it's what they have to you know what they what they're
40:49
what they're coming from to say it, and what they have to lose if
40:52
they're right or wrong. You need to contextualize it. That's good, Stuffy,
40:54
And if you don't mind holding on just for two minutes, we're gonna
40:55
take a quick break. We're going to come back and I want to talk
40:59
to you a little bit about the techtok issue and broadly privacy and how this
41:02
is being approach as a privacy issue. Can we talk about that little bit?
41:06
When to come back? Great, that's ian Sh're joining me an independent
41:07
tech journalist. Really having a good time talking to Ian. We're going to
41:12
take a freak. We'll be back ray after this. If you have any
41:14
questions, We're not gonna have a ton of time, but maybe you can
41:15
text one in three or four, nine, three, five, five years
41:19
or eight three or four nine, three, five, five zeros or eight.
41:21
If you have any text questions, we can get those across to Ian.
41:23
We'll continue our conversation when we come back. Five eighty five is presented
41:28
in part by the Charleston Dirty Birds. It's going to be a great season
41:30
of Dirty Birds Baseball. For tickets, packages, dirty Birds gear and more
41:35
of visit dirty Birds Baseball dot com. We'll take a break and be back
41:37
ra after this. You're listening to the five eighty Live. I'm del Cooper.
41:39
Ian shares with me when wchs. The Voice of Charleston. Brought to
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E. N. Sheer, Independent tech journalist is with me. Now we're
43:57
talking. We talked about AI in the last segment. I want to talk
44:00
a little bit about all these pushes to band TikTok and more broadly prophecy when
44:04
it comes to social media. Just I'll ask you just generally to start with
44:07
ian broadly, your opinion on these uh, these bands on TikTok that's going
44:12
on. What's your observation on those? Well, you know, there's there's
44:16
a problem, which is the First Amendment. Um, you know, the
44:21
First Amendment to the Constitution says that really the freedom of speech, the press,
44:28
assembly, the right to petition, all of those things are protected.
44:31
And so part of what that means is that the government cannot decide what we
44:37
can use to say or what we can really say. And of course part
44:44
of the rub here and why these laws have shown up is that There is
44:50
another aspect to this that we've started dealing with over the last twenty years,
44:53
which is the conversation around national security, right, and the idea that national
44:58
security in some cases can trump any one of these amendments. And I think
45:04
that is part of what's really fascinating about these bands, is that really we're
45:08
talking about a question about Okay, we have a social network. We know
45:14
from Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, all these other social networks that are American
45:17
based that they do not treat our privacy very well and they don't respect a
45:22
lot of the concerns of people who use them, and a lot of bad
45:27
behavior has happened. I've written about that a ton. So now you extrapolate
45:31
that out to the Chinese government and TikTok, which is owned by a Chinese
45:36
based firm, and you think about how the Chinese government is known as authoritarian
45:40
and all these other types, and they're seen as a competitor to the West,
45:45
and suddenly you start getting really scared about national security. So I get
45:51
why this is happening, but I have a feeling that in the end that
45:54
these are going to become really important court cases because they are going to decide
46:00
the future of the First Amendment broadly right, not just in questions of national
46:06
security and the whole thing. Boy, I'll tell you what. For one
46:09
thing that that I guess the supposed reason for the TikTok obviously as national security,
46:15
they talk about privacy and user privacy. I feel like that that the
46:21
user privacy thing is almost a mcguffin, to be honest with you, because
46:24
if they really wanted to tackle user privacy, it wouldn't be just TikTok that
46:29
they would be focused on, because there is an issue with all social media,
46:31
including the US companies, in user privacy. In fact, if I'm
46:36
not mistaken, a lot of the data that they're worried about the government,
46:38
the foreign governments may able to get from TikTok, the US government can purchase
46:43
from third party entities that get that data from our social media companies. In
46:45
a lot of cases, data is out there. Yeah, no, and
46:51
this is part of the problem. And look, the reality is that,
46:57
um, you know, I think it was a Churchill quote. You know
47:00
you can you can always trust Americans to do the right thing after they've tried
47:05
everything else first. And I think one of the things that we've been up
47:09
against is that ever since twenty eighteen, when the big Facebook scandals really started,
47:15
there was a sense that something might actually happen around privacy. We haven't
47:19
written a meaningful tech bill, right, We haven't a meaningful law that affects
47:24
the tech industry in decades of right exactly. And so part of what has
47:32
been really interesting is that both Republicans and Democrats agree that something needs to be
47:39
done about these privacy issues and whatnot. So, you know, we've been
47:44
going and we've been debating this now twenty eighteen, Right, do the math.
47:46
We've been debating this is on Capitol for years, but it's taken TikTok,
47:52
the threat of a Chinese company, to really cause us to actually act.
47:57
And of course, the first acts, the first moves, are against
48:00
a specific company. But I guarantee you that if the courts end up striking
48:05
a lot of these towns would which you know, I'm look, I don't
48:08
know the future, but talking to a lot of legal analysts, a lot
48:12
of people expect that this is not going to survive court cases. The next
48:15
step will be to not make it about TikTok, but to make it about
48:21
social media broadly, and hopefully that's where we can have a good discussion,
48:24
because that's that's what it needs to take place. That's very true. I
48:27
agree, Ian Man, I am out of time. I could do this
48:29
the whole day. I really appreciate you taking some time out of your day
48:30
to join us here in West Virginia, and I hope that you'll do it
48:34
again sometime we can check in on some tech stuff. I really enjoy talking
48:37
to you. Oh absolutely, I love talking with you guys. Thank you
48:40
for having me on. Yeah, absolutely, I appreciate it. Man.
48:43
We'll check in with you later on and keep us up to date on what
48:45
you're doing next. Absolutely, you take care of YouTube man. As Ian
48:49
Sheer just one of my favorite people. Love talking to Ian about tech and
48:52
really insightful and nuanced positions and opinions there. I appreciate that for me and
48:58
Sheer. Andrew Donaldson joined me earlier in the program. You can check out
49:00
his feature on Jim Justice at Washington Examiner magazine. We need to take a
49:04
break and finish up the show. We'll be back after this one. Five
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when you need it. Cincinnati Reds Baseball will be tonight at seven o'clock after
51:51
the sports line. Reds trying to get back onto the winning side of things.
51:54
With loss last night to the Cardinals, there's been some chatter in the
51:59
Reds world. I haven't seen an update on this morning, but Ellie Day
52:00
the Cruise, their super prospect, was not in the lineup yesterday after a
52:06
day off. Usually that means there might be some movement and the only place
52:09
he can go is up, which would be to the major league club.
52:12
Stay tuned on that. If there's any news in that department, will let
52:15
you know about it. One of the biggest prospects in Red's history. We'll
52:19
see how that how that plays out, that's gonna do it for us today.
52:22
Thank you so much for tuning into five eighty Live. I'll be back
52:23
this afternoon at three o'clock with a weekly four hotline. Ron Nicholson was my
52:29
producer this morning. Thank you, Ryan, and have a great day everyone.
52:30
I'm Deil Cooper. This is five A w CHS. We are the
52:34
voice of Charleston. Have a great Wednesday. Amis Charleston one four point five
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