Latest / Skin Anarchy / Dr Corey Hartman MD FAAD Interview

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Dr Corey Hartman MD FAAD Interview · Skin Anarchy

• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Diablo 4.
• 0:23
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• 0:25
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• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: This is your host, Ecta, and I'm very excited about our guest today.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you've seen his work um in some of the top beauty publications lately, um, Refinery29, Birdie.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: But without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Dr.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Corey Hartman.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: He has been named the number one uh board-certified dermatologist in Birmingham and has many, many other accolades.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome, Dr.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Hartman.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for coming onto the show.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to be here.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: I am Corey Hartman.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a board certified dermatologist.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: I practice in Birmingham, Alabama at a practice that I founded 11 years ago in 2009 called Skin Wellness Dermatology.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: We have a couple of locations and um three doctors, three dermatologists, and two nurse practitioners, three estheticians that provide comprehensive skin care.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um that spans the ages, it spans the decades, it spans the needs.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: So medical, laser, cosmetic, pediatric.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um we are kind of a one-stop shop for all things skin, hair, and nails.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I actually wanted to add that was my first question for you is what your role opinion of skincare really is in terms of you know skin health and just overall maintenance.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I will I really want to hear uh what you think of it, um, rather than a lot of the companies, you know, that tell us about skincare.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, the skin is the largest organ, as everybody knows, and is your first line of defense against infection and um unregulated temperature.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it's the way that we convey our beauty.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's important to our careers and our interpersonal relationships.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: It helps us to um, you know, keep our hydration in with a good skin barrier so that we don't suffer from you know skin conditions that are affected by dryness like eczema.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the skin is very important.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, I I'm a skincare minimalist in a lot of ways.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that a lot of products are always better or necessary.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the key key skincare ingredients and products can be very helpful to not only achieve the goals that you're going for, but to be able to maintain and prevent um anti- or aging, unwanted aging, premature aging, and other breakouts from inflammation in the future.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that's interesting because you know, and in terms of minimalism, like um, what do you mean by like minimal?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think is the most minimalistic skincare routine someone should have?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think good sun protection, so a good sunscreen, uh, an antioxidant, cocktail, some sort of serum in the morning, and then a retinol at night.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: That really is the holy trinity of basic skincare.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And without that, you aren't covering all of the bases to keep things tight and firm and even and acne-free and wrinkle-free.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of a good basic.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's easy for most people to adhere with that simple regimen.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then if there are special concerns or desires or goals that you need to work on, you know, we can add other products to help to achieve those particular goals.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: That makes sense.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: So um, so how do you feel about all the skincare brands?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: There are like the clinical grade skincare brands.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they're claiming a lot of um, you know, research-backed stuff.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're saying there, you know, there's more clinical trials going on now with skincare brands.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: How do you feel about that whole thing?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess it depends on the skincare brand.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: The ones that I am familiar with and work with, they they really do conduct this research.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've helped them to conduct some of the research.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So they have white papers and science behind them.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some people say it's controversial because they, you know, set the studies up in a way that's going to be favorable.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: But most companies that conduct the real trials are ethical and don't really do that.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody who puts out skin care is not conducting clinical trials, however.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you can't say that across the board, but for the ones that are in a physician's office that are dispensed um, you know, behind that wall and um have science, some science behind them, they can be trusted to at least uphold the standard that they are purporting to uphold.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: That makes sense.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, I am actually curious because um I I wonder what you think about the whole peer-reviewed um, you know, publication of of your research versus just you know a comp in in-house like company research.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do you feel about those two?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it should be more of like an academia-based process rather than just you know in-house research or does it even matter?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I, you know, I mean, it's way more expensive to do that.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, a lot of those studies are to um establish efficacy and also clinical safety.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And if these things aren't, you know, regulated by the FDA, then I'm not sure if they need to be held to the same stringent regulations that you know, a prescription medication should be held to.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: That seems a bit far-reaching and far-fetched.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're just making claims that these changes will be, you know, are are generally reproducible if they're used by a vast majority of people.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: So um I'm not sure if they need to be held to the same standards as something that could potentially cause, you know, medical changes and um can be detrimental to a person's health.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I think there are different levels.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: I I you know, honestly, uh the reason I ask you this is because of the whole sunscreen controversy.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know how much um you you heard about the whole, you know, people were talking about how it causes melanoma and all of this.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I I just sunscreen causes melanoma?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was reading about that.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: I apparently, apparently in the 90s, this was a big like it was the first time they it came out with this, and then um recently that you know the whole concept surged up again.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I was reading papers about it.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's absolutely no um science backing this claim at all, but like it's it's becoming this bad, I feel like.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And people are talking about here we go.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's the democratization of expertise, right?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so sick of it.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody who has a platform is not an expert, so yeah, I we can't even entertain that.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's fake, it's real fake news.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm glad.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for commenting on that.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I was just like, you know, I wonder what he would think about this.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, everything that's printed.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I tell people you can find anything, anything that you want on the internet.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's always gonna be a dark corner of some, you know, foxhole that you can go to.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you search and scroll long enough, you will find a claim to support, or you will find information to support a claim on anything.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean that it's credible.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's the thing.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Just because it's printed on the internet does not make it a credible source, does not make it a scientific source or even a reputable source of information.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I need more information than it was on the internet.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, no, it was I I was reading papers on PubMed because it it's been published that there is absolutely no scientific truth to this.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not to your claim, but I mean just in general.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: People try to come with you know these arguments, and if your primary source of you know citation is something that you read on the internet, then we can't discuss it.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, PubMed is a different story that's on the internet, but that's actually a database of you know researched, um, scientifically backed um, you know, information.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I agree with you completely.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: So let me let me shift focus a little bit.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: I want to ask you about the products you think are, I guess, you know, uh, pardon me for this word, but universally um great for everybody.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you think that there's like a, you know, just your go-to things that everybody can kind of say, okay, let me go grab this cleanser or this, you know, like your favorite products?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about that.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: You mean specifics?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Not really.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's gonna vary pretty widely.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I mean, there's certain like cetophil is a great cleanser, cereb is a great cleanser, but is it gonna, is it going to, you know, address your needs if you're oily?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is it going to help you if you're suffering from acne?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe not.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there's really not a one-step shop for you know, like that.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we can go categories, like we talked about.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think everybody needs a sunscreen, an antioxidant, and perhaps a retinol or some sort of retinol substitute if you are sensitive or have rosacea or you know, eczema or dry skin conditions.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: But um that's the beautiful thing about um skin and dermatology is that you a customized treatment is really gonna be best for you, which is why proactive fails, because it's the same thing for everybody.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: If it works, it works because you're compliant, it's about consistency.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that you use for a while is gonna be consistent, is gonna be is gonna be effective if you keep using it until it's not effective anymore.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: So um that's cookie cutter.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we try to stay away from that kind of stuff because it might give you a temporary improvement, but it's not going to be anything that's sustained or long-lasting.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, what are some of the things that you consider in your patients when you're um trying to recommend maybe uh, you know, a some sort of a skincare product to them that you think might be beneficial?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what are some of the things to keep in mind that we think?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you need to consider your skin type, you need to assess your oil content if you're prone to dryness, if you're dealing with any underlying skin condition, like sebaric dermatitis or acne or rosacea or eczema or keratosis pylaris or any of a number of things that determine, you know, you may need something more significant to treat those medical conditions, and then you formulate a regimen around that condition and those medications that you know you're prescribed.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's probably the first thing.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is the goals that you're trying to achieve, if you're trying to deal with discoloration or if you're trying to clear up acne or help with melasma or whatever.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna be crucial.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: You look at the person's history and what they've dealt with, if they have any scarring that might impact the regimen.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: You look at their family history, um, see what you know, concerns that family members have dealt with or family members are dealing with that this person may be destined for later.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it, you know, there's a lot that goes into it, which is why it's really frustrating when people see somebody with clear skin and they say, you know, drop your skincare regimen.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that doesn't mean that what works for me is not necessarily gonna work for you.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of, you know, spending wasting money on these products just because it worked for somebody else, maybe you should just invest in some professional assistance to help to find a regimen that actually works for you instead of that's actually where I was gonna go next and ask you this exact question what you just addressed is this idea of you know, when you're a teenager, you get your first breakout, what should you do?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: My answer is go to a dermatologist.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's what I did when I was a teenager and had a breakout.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: I told my mom I don't know what to do because we didn't have this whole big skincare, you know, industry, right?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like at that time.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: So my go-to was I'm gonna go to a derm.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: And now I feel like that whole step is being skipped.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, how do you what do you feel about that?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think people waste a lot of time.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I mean, everybody who deals with teenage breakouts doesn't necessarily have to see a dermatologist.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, that would be my preference because it would save a lot of time.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: But it it is important.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I tell patients or parents to make sure that their child, a number first of all, that they care.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because if they don't care about the acne, then we're wasting everybody's time having them come into my office.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, make sure that they are ready to be consistent with something.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of these kids are barely washing their faces.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if you bring them in my office, even if they do care and they haven't developed a consistent routine, and I give them, you know, an additional step or two, we're we're setting ourselves up for failure there too.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's some good over-the-counter products that you can get at the drugstore that will work for a teenager, preteen, tween, whatever we're calling them, to get started.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then if they develop some regularity and consistency with that and they're not seeing improvement, then maybe it's time to get professional help.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, those are the two things that I try to insist upon before, you know, recommending that they come into the office.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I find it interesting how the concept of dermatologists has changed uh ever since Accutane was a thing that it was like overly prescribed, I feel like.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, do you feel like that kind of changed people's perception of like a dermatologist?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because I remember being like a teenager.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: What was it like before?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: I okay, I'm gonna be honest with you.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: When I was a teenager, had bad cystic acne, my dermatologist scared the living crap out of me.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: She told me you're not gonna have kids, you're gonna have to come in every week for our pregnancy test.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: It just scared me, you know what I mean at the time.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember my friends now that I you know in their 30s, millennials, they're like, Yeah, I remember that.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: I felt the same with Accutane.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm curious, like, do you like do you think there's anything in that whole thing that's kind of changed people's perception, like about you know, those kind of drugs?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: I first of all, I want to go on record as saying that Accutane is a wonderful drug that changes people's lives for the better every single day.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's number one.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: There is a lot of misconception about Accutane, and there's a whole like sub-world of anti-vax type people who um make it their mission to demonize this drug based on very little scientific evidence.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's that.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, there are people it you said something about never having kids.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: So what what we say and what people hear, there's obviously a huge disconnect.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know the dermatologist, I don't know how it was delivered to you.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: I find it hard to believe that any dermatologist would ever say that because the truth is that while you're on the drug, you may not, you must not have a child because if you do, that baby could have significant birth defects.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: That medicine stays in your system for one month.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: After you're off of the medicine for one month, you can have a baby that is totally healthy and fine.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it does not impair your um ability to have children, it does not impact your fertility at any point in life.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like none of those things is true.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: But because of the democratization of expertise, there's this bad information out there that makes people demonize this drug, usually and you know, for no with with for no reason, to be honest.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, of course, like any other medication, it's gonna have potential side effects.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you read all of the side effects of doxycycline, if you would actually go down and read them all, you probably wouldn't want to take that.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you read all the side effects and that happened in any study of ibuprofen, you probably wouldn't want to take that either.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think it gets a bad rap.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: I really do.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great drug.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And like any other drug, I'm sure that there are people who, you know, took it and didn't like it, but those people are far outnumbered by the people who say that it changes their lives, it prevents scarring, it gives them their confidence back.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: It can, it's the only way to cure the acne.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, it it it gives them a new outlook.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, yeah.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how it changed.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if if I would say that if I if anything, I would say that Acutane offered an option that would have made a dermatologist more appealing, not less.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, unfortunately, that that's not the you know consensus that I got growing up.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I'm I get it, I get what you're saying, and I totally am 100% behind that because obviously you're the expert, you know, and you've seen those day in and day out.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying, I think that there's a lot of like stigma associated with taking, like, for example, I can tell you right now that I have friends that say if I go to a dermatologist, I'm gonna be prescribed something like an antibiotic, or I'm gonna be given something, you know, or like a medication that's harsh.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's we're doctors.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and would you go to the internist and say, How dare you give me a medication for hypertension?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, when people I'll tell you the flip side of that.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: When people come to us, dermatologists, medical doctors who have gone to allopathic medical school, and they lay out their list of things that they will not take and they only want to take natural things.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: We ask, like, why are you here?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is not what I went to school for.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't go to school to give you herbs.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I understand, look, that is your right, that is your prerogative.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody makes their own decisions on how they want to take control of their of their health care, but that's not really fair, you know, to like put that on doctors.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't want this, this, this.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: I won't take antibiotics.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's what we those are the medications that are available for acne.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we learn in residency, how to treat acne.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, yeah, that's your idea.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you should try a naturopathic doctor or an aesthetician who, you know, is not a medical professor.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: No, I get it.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was trained in allopathic medicine as well, so I get it, you know, and and I get the idea of giving drugs is what we learn.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: But like, you know, one thing that I think people need to understand is that, you know, if you're getting a drug from a dermatologist, and this was actually the point I was trying to make, is that if you guys are prescribing a drug, it's because there are clinical studies, there's research that shows that this is going to kill the bacteria that are, you know what I mean?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like that antibiotic is being used.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: So absolutely, yes.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, okay, so I I actually want to ask you, um, you know, going off of that a little bit, is there an area in dermatology or plastic surgery that you want to see more research around?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that you would like to see more information about?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would like to see more research focused on keloids and scarring, yeah.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and all the different forms of hair loss.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would like to see more research in areas that historically affect underrepresented minorities, particularly black people, because we have a thousand medications for psoriasis and like nothing new for keloids in like the past 50 years.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's just another example of disparities in medicine because psoriasis, although it affects people of all skin types, it affects people with lighter skin, white people, you know, in greater numbers than it does people of color.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: So hair loss is another, you know, scarring alopecia is something that affects black communities more than it affects other communities.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: There, but you know, hair loss is just underserved in general.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, there happens to also be that that racial component to it.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I would love to, and there are some things coming down the pike for um hair loss.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: There are there have been some great strides made by colleagues and friends of mine who have made it their life's work to really do some great basic science research to figure out some of the genetic predispositions, um, markers, and um try to get more to the root of why some of these disorders exist.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's promising.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: We have and and that will lead the companies to see that it's profitable so that they will go take the step to develop you know effective treatments and remedies.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I would like to see, I would like to see those two areas in particular.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: We have enough psoriasis medications, like seriously.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: There are literally like 15 biologics for psoriasis, you know.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, yeah, I get it.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: No, I get that.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's very interesting.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned keloids, actually.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I'm gonna do a little bit more research.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know much about uh like the you know from the dermatology side about um rate scarring.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: So okay, so I actually want to ask you something, and this is something I I've I'm hoping after this episode is completely cleared up for everybody out there.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: This whole idea of dirty ingredients or clean beauty.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts about that?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so this is another controversial topic that I think has been uh usurped and um let's see, manipulated for marketing purposes, because you already know that there is no governing body that labels anything clean or dirty.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's the you know, the the European list, which I think goes too far because they have petrolatum on the list, which is just Vaseline, and that's not you know not necessarily a toxic substance.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: We've been using it forever for years.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we have this whole idea of clean beauty, which is really just a term that has no real meaning.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: It has no real range.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us more, Dr.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Hartman.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, there no there's no governing.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Body that's saying what's clean and what's not.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: These anybody can make these claims.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Does that mean that, you know, it's organic?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Does that mean that it's natural?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is it derived with, you know, no chemicals?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what's considered a chemical?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, everything is actually a chemical.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's semantics.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: And they're using the public's lack of understanding and lack of information to take advantage of these buzzwords that sound good, but it really doesn't mean anything when you dig down into actually.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: I just did a talk with uh interview with the coveturer who broke all this down and looked at all the differences.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: The only one that has any weight is organic, because that there's actually a definition for that.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the FDA does regulate on products that are labeled organic to make sure that you know they're free of pesticides and other ingredients that go against what the idea of organic is.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: But clean, even vegan, you know, animal cruelty, sustainable, all these terms are so interwoven, interrelated, but distinct that you could be animal, you could be like what?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say you could be vegan, but not animal cruelty free.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like you could actually be not derived from an animal, but tested on an animal.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's just it's like convoluted.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: So none of those words really have a lot of meaning.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: It I I'm I'm a consultant for a skincare company, and they were just asking my opinion on this whole thing.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: They spent all this money to go into clean.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, look, I feel like that that they they are really um sincere about it, and they've done the work, but that that term has been so diluted that it really doesn't mean anything anymore.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I gave them some big.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's you don't think so.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that there are companies that that had good intentions.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, got away from the clean.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, it's just like I like I honestly I I hear you with I just think that clean when you tell me something is clean, I I'm sorry, I still think of soap and water.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't think about like Yeah, no, I get it.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I I like the more you know clinical, I guess, grade skincare because I I like science, you know.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, we we're practitioners, we like science, but it's like we want evidence.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: We want evidence, thank you.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly what I was saying.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so okay, I want to ask you one more question.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: How much skincare is too much skincare?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's a weird question, but it's a weird question, but it's a good question.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think it so this is how I'll say that.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I just talked to another editor about this too, because uh everybody's different, you know.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is a time where people are looking for self-care and people are looking for ways to relax.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: People are trying to find ways to make themselves better and make themselves, you know, whole during these crazy times that we're living in.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: So what's good for you may not be good for somebody else, right?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you bring a bag of 20 products to me and you're using all this stuff and you're confused, and five, you know, you you're reduplicating efforts because you have three or four things that do the same thing, that's A, you're not getting results, then that's too much for you.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to pare this down, get this to the basics, address the needs that you have, and make it manageable.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: And just because we are dealing with one problem now, that doesn't mean we can't evolve to deal with another problem that you might be having later if we find that this regimen is too much.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I always ask patients, is this overwhelming?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Is this a burden?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because if it is, it's not worth it.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I I like I'm all about my holy trinity.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: I told I keep talking about those three things, those are my non-negotiables, everything else we can add on.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: But then on the flip side, if that's how you if I also tell patients that you have to find 30 minutes every day to yourself to do something relaxing, because if not, your body is going to find a way to deal with that stress that you don't like, whether it's breakouts or hives or hair loss or whatever.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if your 30 minutes is sitting in the mirror and applying, you know, five serums that are not going to do you any harm and you're not going broke to do it.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, go for it.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's that's that's your self-care.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it's kind of individualized.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if there's a magic number.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: As long as you have your basic needs being addressed, then I think that we want to keep it um in line with your lifestyle and um your schedule.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that you said you mentioned self-care because right, there's nothing wrong with self-care.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Just don't pretend like it's medicine, you know.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that too.
• 26:35
  unknown: Yeah.
• 26:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's keep it real for sure.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much, Dr.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Hartman.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: This has been awesome.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're so fun to talk to, and it's been truly a pleasure.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I it was very fun.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that we cleared up some misconceptions, and um, I hope that people found it helpful.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm sure they will.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: And everybody out there listening, please leave us your comments and or if you have questions for Dr.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Hartman, please leave them below.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'll pass it on to him if he has the time.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, leave us some ratings, some feedback, and we'll be back next time.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Dr.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Hartman.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Ecta.
• 27:15
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