Latest / Ridiculous History / The Terrifying Science of Tiny Subs and D-Day, Part Two: The Rise of the Chamber Divers

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The Terrifying Science of Tiny Subs and D-Day, Part Two: The Rise of the Chamber Divers · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
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Speaker 1: much for tuning in. This is part two two two
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Speaker 1: two of a continued series on Tiny Subs and d Day,
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Speaker 1: and I just couldn't be more excited to continue.
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Speaker 2: That's my favorite stunt Tumble Pilot's album Tiny Subs and
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Speaker 2: d Day No I does tiny music songs from the
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Speaker 2: Vatican Gift Show, which also could be the title of
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Speaker 2: a Ridiculous History episode.
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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, yeah, and I've been bowling you're an old
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Speaker 1: Brown's me. We're in media arrests with an astonishing story
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Speaker 1: that has everything. A little bit of ridiculous crime, some
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Speaker 1: mad science, some skillduggery, and classified documents and of course
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Speaker 1: the ever present threat of death.
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Speaker 2: Let's jump right in or dive from I guess.
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Speaker 3: Now.
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Speaker 1: With this setup, we have learned about the guy's selfish
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Speaker 1: motives for asking Rachel all these questions. We've also learned that,
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Speaker 1: and thank you Rachel, We've also learned that there was
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Speaker 1: a tremendous opportunity, there was immense danger, and therefore there
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Speaker 1: was a profound need for someone to figure out what
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Speaker 1: the heck was going on, and this is maybe where
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Speaker 1: Rachel we introduce our characters, our human elements. We gave
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Speaker 1: a little foreshadowing.
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Speaker 2: Before pleased a love story.
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Speaker 4: The love story.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a little science nerd love story in there.
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Speaker 3: So we already talked about jbs hel Dane. He is
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Speaker 3: our leader of this genetics lab at UCL Now. One
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Speaker 3: of the things that jbs hel Dane did, and I
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Speaker 3: don't want to make him sound too much like a glossy,
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Speaker 3: shiny superhero, he was a complicated and nuanced person. He
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Speaker 3: made a lot of people mad in his time, but
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Speaker 3: I think that complicated people can also still do really
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Speaker 3: great things. One of the amazing things that he did
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Speaker 3: was when Hitler got elected in nineteen thirty three, which
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Speaker 3: again Hitler some problems. I have notes. Yes, wow, he
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Speaker 3: was very Yeah he was there. I mean yes, yes,
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Speaker 3: he was very open at the time of his election
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Speaker 3: that he blamed Jewish people for all of the problems
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Speaker 3: in Germany. It was so effective for him to create
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Speaker 3: a scapegoaded other especially of this Jewish population that didn't
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Speaker 3: necessarly have a huge platform to fight back, and so
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Speaker 3: he really manipulated that in order to get elected, and
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Speaker 3: when he did a huge number of people thought, oh,
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Speaker 3: it was just talk, He's not actually going to try
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Speaker 3: and do this stuff, like this was just election talk.
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Speaker 3: But a lot of other people believed him. Now what
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Speaker 3: JBS how Dane did was he believed him. And so
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Speaker 3: immediately one of his efforts that he started participating in
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Speaker 3: as much as he could was bringing over Jewish scientists
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Speaker 3: from Germany as refugees. So he worked with an American
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Speaker 3: foundation that still exists, called the Rockefeller Foundation, and they
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Speaker 3: were willing to provide some of the money for the
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Speaker 3: labor funding, and then how Dan was willing to provide
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Speaker 3: them a lab home. And since he could be like, hey,
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Speaker 3: they have a job here, that let them legally immigrate
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Speaker 3: over to England and bring their families to a place
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Speaker 3: where he it was safer, you know, obviously the blitz later,
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Speaker 3: but it was safer than being a Jewish family in Germany.
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Speaker 3: And so he has at this point filled his lab
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Speaker 3: mostly with Jewish refugee scientists. And one of the things
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Speaker 3: that he also started doing was he recognized that the people,
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Speaker 3: the scientists who are already famous, who were very well established,
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Speaker 3: would have an easy time getting out and sure enough
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Speaker 3: they did, so he started looking for fresh scientists and
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Speaker 3: young graduates because he was like, these are the ones
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Speaker 3: that need help. And so he's got this lab full
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Speaker 3: of young, very eager, excited to be in England Jewish
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Speaker 3: refugee scientists. One of them is this woman named Ursula Phillip,
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Speaker 3: who I have to shout out by name because she
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Speaker 3: is I feel like my historical sister one of When
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Speaker 3: I finally found her daughter and interviewed her daughter, one
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Speaker 3: of the first things that her daughter said was that, like,
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Speaker 3: she used to be embarrassed because she came from this
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Speaker 3: family that was historically very wealthy, which she was clumsy,
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Speaker 3: and she would always spill food anytime they got her
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Speaker 3: nice clothes, she has food on herself. And I was like, yes, Ursula,
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Speaker 3: I see you, Yes, I am the same. So I
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Speaker 3: felt like I really related to her. And there had
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Speaker 3: been this kind of apocryphal story that when she fled,
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Speaker 3: she had to run from the Nazis so quickly that
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Speaker 3: she for like had to have somebody male her her
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Speaker 3: doctoral dissertation to her, and her daughter just started laughing
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Speaker 3: and she's like, no, she forgot it, like to pack it.
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Speaker 3: And I was like Ursula, I see you, so yeah,
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Speaker 3: so Ursula. Philip is an expert in genetics, as are
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Speaker 3: most of the people in this lab. Now at this time,
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Speaker 3: this is before Franklin and Creek had really discovered the
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Speaker 3: structure of DNA, so we they don't they suspect something
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Speaker 3: like DNA is influencing inheritance, but it hasn't been discovered yet.
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Speaker 3: So the way genetics was studying, and this is relevant
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Speaker 3: to d day, I swear I'll get there, like the
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Speaker 3: way Noel is like rolling his eyes is like shirt
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Speaker 3: pop pod math more, I do work in it. The
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Speaker 3: reason this is relevant is because the way that genetics
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Speaker 3: to study this time is through math and through studying
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Speaker 3: what happens on population levels. So if you have one
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Speaker 3: hundred fruit flies and they all have fruitfly babies, how
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Speaker 3: are their traits passed down to the next generation? How
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Speaker 3: many get red eyes, how many get black eyes? And
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Speaker 3: that is how they are looking at how these patterns
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Speaker 3: of inheritance occur generation to generation. Game exactly exactly that
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Speaker 3: the peapods, which if you don't if you don't know
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Speaker 3: the reference, it's like looking at wrinkled peas versus smooth
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Speaker 3: peas and purple flowers versus white flowers. This is a
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Speaker 3: classic experiment that you should have been tortured with in
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Speaker 3: high school biology. But this is one of the ways
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Speaker 3: that people were looking at dominant versus recessive genes and
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Speaker 3: how the ps were passing these different traits down. Yeah,
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Speaker 3: so same idea, but kicked up seven notches with advanced calculus,
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Speaker 3: looking at how traits occur across big populations.
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Speaker 2: So they're using the math to discern patterns or to
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Speaker 2: like kind of pull out those kind of stats.
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Speaker 3: Exactly and how groups will react to something. So for example,
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Speaker 3: if you make a change and you treat group A
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Speaker 3: of ducks differently and feed them something, then group B
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Speaker 3: of ducks and you count how many eggs each produce.
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Speaker 3: Can you compare those two groups and say, yes, the
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Speaker 3: difference was what I did with a reasonable degree of confidence,
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Speaker 3: or no, this is like within the bounds of random
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Speaker 3: chants like this, this is an amount of variation that
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Speaker 3: happens to random chance. So this is not a good
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Speaker 3: way to get my ducks to make more eggs. So
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Speaker 3: that's that's kind of what they're looking at. Or like
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Speaker 3: one of the famous ways that they did this is
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Speaker 3: they looked at the heights of schoolgirls, so they're like,
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Speaker 3: what height can we expect schoolgirls to be in these
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Speaker 3: London schools? Now, the reason this is relevant is because
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Speaker 3: every person is a little bit different from every other person,
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Speaker 3: even identical twins. You have what's called genetic and biological variability.
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Speaker 3: That's why Ben, you have a majestic mustache and I
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Speaker 3: do not.
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Speaker 1: My gosh, by the way, I'm in I'm in kind
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Speaker 1: of a cold war with my girlfriend over this one.
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Speaker 4: I'm probably you know what, battles.
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Speaker 3: Right right in support.
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Speaker 4: We're starting to go stash me.
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Speaker 3: But yeah, either way, we're both people. But that's a
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Speaker 3: huge difference.
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Speaker 1: And this is also by the way of coming even
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Speaker 1: in what would say the early days of genetic science.
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Speaker 1: This is existing in the context of some very serious
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Speaker 1: and very problematic racial ideas disguised as fact. Right, yes, arguments,
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Speaker 1: absolutely right.
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Speaker 3: So there are two schools of thought at this time,
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Speaker 3: and both of them exist at UCL in warring genetics labs.
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Speaker 3: I am happy to say how Dan was on the
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Speaker 3: good side. He was the one who thought eugenics were wrong.
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Speaker 3: So he was like, no, no, there are differences, that
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Speaker 3: doesn't mean better. He was just like, yeah, so he
9:52
Speaker 3: was on He was the lead warrior on the side
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Speaker 3: of anti eugenics. So this is a good like I said,
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Speaker 3: he he was occasionally a difficult person. He was known
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Speaker 3: for occasionally having explosive outbursts. He was very particular if
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Speaker 3: he if he liked you, it was because you could
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Speaker 3: talk to him about his group of science. Like if
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Speaker 3: he didn't like you, it was because you had like
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Speaker 3: told him no acrosst him right, and he would try
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Speaker 3: and make your life hell. You know, He's one of
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Speaker 3: those personalities. I don't have the expertise to see this,
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Speaker 3: but I do think it would be an interesting like
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Speaker 3: historical valuation of someone with like expertise and autism to
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Speaker 3: look at some of the stuff. But regardless, he was
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Speaker 3: undeniably brilliant and so yeah he He and Ronald Fisher,
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Speaker 3: who's the head of the you pro eugenic side, they
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Speaker 3: had to put their offices on opposite sides of campus
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Speaker 3: so that they wouldn't physically fight each other, Like, yeah,
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Speaker 3: they separated the cats so that they wouldn't get in
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Speaker 3: fistfights as on campus. Right about that.
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Speaker 1: This is something that we have to point out just
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Speaker 1: a quick pause here for anybody who is not familiar
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Speaker 1: with academia, there is often a stereotype of every every
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Speaker 1: expert being somewhat milk toast or you know, somewhat somewhat
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Speaker 1: passive in their interactions and.
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Speaker 5: The just and what what you're describing here, I think
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Speaker 5: gives lie to that stereotype and assumption.
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Speaker 4: Is it true that professors fight all the time.
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Speaker 3: I don't want to say they physically fight all the time,
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Speaker 3: but professors and academics and scientists more generally typically are
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Speaker 3: people who have decided to dedicate their entire lives to
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Speaker 3: their niche special interest. So it's like, I want to
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Speaker 3: do this sixty hours a week, so this is my
12:05
Speaker 3: niche special interest. So you have to imagine that there
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Speaker 3: are professors who are checked out, like there are. Academia
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Speaker 3: is a very difficult environment a lot of the time,
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Speaker 3: and there are professors who get checked out for one
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Speaker 3: reason or the enda the other, and that's pretty universal.
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Speaker 3: But for the most part, they at least started with
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Speaker 3: the fiery passion and deep love of the topics they're.
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Speaker 1: Studying, and super dedicated and so endicated.
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Speaker 4: So this is like, it reminds me of.
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Speaker 1: Well, since we already said there was a right and
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Speaker 1: wrong side of this particular history of genetics. Yes, let's
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Speaker 1: call it Sith and Jedi, yes separated.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, and I will tell you we can take
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Speaker 3: some like little shot in Fredic Glee when the blitz starts,
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Speaker 3: they tried like hell to evacuate the UCO campus, and
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Speaker 3: these two groups are the ones that just refused, and
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Speaker 3: they like they tried to turn off electricity, they tried
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Speaker 3: to turn off the gas, like trying everything to force.
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Speaker 3: They put up barricades. They literally put up barricades. And
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Speaker 3: these both of these two groups, the pro eugenics Fisher
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Speaker 3: group and the anti eugenics hell Dane group, were the
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Speaker 3: ones that were like figuring out how to get past
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Speaker 3: the barricades so they could go to their labs. So
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Speaker 3: there's one funny scene that we can laugh at where
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Speaker 3: Ronald Fisher is trying to climb over like a barricade
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Speaker 3: and the guards try to stop him and they literally
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Speaker 3: pants this guy trying to pull because he's clambering our
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Speaker 3: barricade and they got him on pants, which for our
13:51
Speaker 3: British listeners I've learned means something else. It would be
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Speaker 3: his trousers in English. So that's oh right, that's like
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Speaker 3: how intensely these people are focused on science as a concept.
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Speaker 3: So the reason not, yeah, we kind of went on
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Speaker 3: a side journey which was very fun. But the reason
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Speaker 3: that this matters is because once you start exposing people
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Speaker 3: to weird gases, I'm gonna respond differently than Ben is
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Speaker 3: going to respond, and We're gonna respond differently than Nola
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Speaker 3: is gonna respond, or our silent producer Max is going
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Speaker 3: to respond. All of us are gonna have variation, and
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Speaker 3: especially with some of these gases which this lab discovered,
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Speaker 3: you will even vary day to day. So there's no
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Speaker 3: such thing as how much oxygen can Rachel Lance take?
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Speaker 3: There is how much oxygen can Rachel Lance take today?
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Speaker 3: And the reason they needed to figure that out and
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Speaker 3: create all of these probability curves and give someone their
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Speaker 3: percent chance of being safety and was because they didn't
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Speaker 3: You can't test it for individuals, So they started out
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Speaker 3: doing it on themse elves. They got in these devices
15:02
Speaker 3: called hyperbaric chambers. These are giant metal tubes. They're usually cylindrical,
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Speaker 3: sometimes they're spherical, but either way that's to hold the
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Speaker 3: pressure in. They sealed the doors shut to paint some
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Speaker 3: of this picture. These are thick metal walls. Some of
15:18
Speaker 3: them have tiny little windows, others do not, so sometimes
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Speaker 3: the only light coming in is from maybe like a
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Speaker 3: two to three inch little piece of really really thick
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Speaker 3: glass portal. Others have no windows. Some of them go
15:34
Speaker 3: shallow enough that you can maybe bring a light in
15:36
Speaker 3: with you, but that's a fire hazard. That will light
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Speaker 3: a fire in a chamber and then them.
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Speaker 2: Is quickly give a recommendation for a TV show. Department
15:45
Speaker 2: Q features a hyperbaric chamber as a major plot point.
15:49
Speaker 2: So if you want to see it's very good. You
15:52
Speaker 2: in particular, I think would appreciate it because it's got
15:54
Speaker 2: a lot of references to deep sea you know, pressure
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Speaker 2: tests and things like that. Yeah, that's the first time
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Speaker 2: I'd ever seen one of these for real, and it's
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Speaker 2: it's very much a big part of the show.
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Speaker 3: Okay, I appreciate the tip. Cannot watch for accuracy yet.
16:08
Speaker 3: I will go watch it and report back let us know.
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Speaker 1: But oh, Rachel, you're just haunted by having to watch fiction.
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Speaker 3: I love it.
16:18
Speaker 4: What was it you said?
16:19
Speaker 1: I remember there was a moment in our previous conversation, uh,
16:24
Speaker 1: regarding the Hunley and you kicked us some facts about
16:27
Speaker 1: film explosions, righteously irritated about it.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I still carry that flag, but you know I've
16:37
Speaker 3: got a lot of I've gotta love flags to carry.
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Speaker 2: To spend your disbelief, doctor, spend it.
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Speaker 3: Film explosions are frequently inaccurately portrayed. Perhaps you need to
16:50
Speaker 3: go review the previous episode for the full details of that.
16:54
Speaker 3: It isn't it is in the first book. It isn't
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Speaker 3: in the waves. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: But also going back to as you said, the hyperbaric chambers,
17:03
Speaker 1: which will all remember from Michael Jackson, yea, his life
17:07
Speaker 1: and career.
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Speaker 3: So his were clear, Yeah, his were clear. They were
17:10
Speaker 3: made out of acrylic because he was not going very deep.
17:13
Speaker 3: But that's that same idea. So that is a great visual.
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Speaker 3: But imagine that thick walled metal with nobility to light.
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Speaker 3: And now you when you go in them, one of
17:22
Speaker 3: the first sensations that you experience is the noise and
17:26
Speaker 3: the heat because people outside are controlling the chamber and
17:31
Speaker 3: they are pumping pressurized gas inside. That's how we simulate
17:35
Speaker 3: high depths, That's how we stimulate the depths of the ocean.
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Speaker 3: So as that happens, the gas around you is compressing,
17:43
Speaker 3: it heats up. The gas flows through those pipes is
17:46
Speaker 3: very loud. So a lot of people have very severe
17:51
Speaker 3: claustrophobia inside chambers when they don't any other place in
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Speaker 3: the world, and they often the first time they're in
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Speaker 3: one got nervous. So when I was running experiments before,
18:03
Speaker 3: back in professor life, when I would run experiments, a
18:06
Speaker 3: lot of what I would do is talk to the subjects,
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Speaker 3: make sure they have time in the chamber, make sure
18:14
Speaker 3: they know what to expect, make sure they're mentally comfortable,
18:17
Speaker 3: because this is an environment that can feel terrifying even
18:22
Speaker 3: though statistically it's very safe. Like statistically it's really really safe.
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Speaker 3: Unscrupulous chambers like the one in Troy, Michigan where there's
18:30
Speaker 3: the explosion last year, those can go horribly awry. But
18:34
Speaker 3: the safety standards for reputable chambers mean that those ones
18:39
Speaker 3: that are run to code have extremely good safety records.
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Speaker 2: Can I just say I love the idea of unscrupulous chambers.
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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there are some shady There are some shady
18:48
Speaker 3: ass chambers out there, so yeah, you want to make
18:52
Speaker 3: sure they're being run to safety code. Yeah, and so
18:59
Speaker 3: it is, uh, it is it is an experience, experience
19:03
Speaker 3: that can feel overwhelming. So this group jbs hal Dane
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Speaker 3: his girlfriend who he met in the lab. Her name
19:10
Speaker 3: is Helen Spurway. She loves genetics. She particularly studied nuts.
19:17
Speaker 3: I cannot tell you how many records I pulled with
19:19
Speaker 3: her name on them that turned out to be literally
19:22
Speaker 3: her keeping calendars of what kinds of newts she found
19:25
Speaker 3: that day and where they were. Like, yeah, these are
19:29
Speaker 3: extreme special interest people like she would go knock on
19:32
Speaker 3: the houses of strangers, be like, I notice you have
19:34
Speaker 3: a pond in your backyard. Can I go waiting in
19:36
Speaker 3: it and look for nuts.
19:40
Speaker 4: A thousand times?
19:41
Speaker 3: Yeah? If you explain them to me as.
19:46
Speaker 2: You how else can we make our witches brew?
19:50
Speaker 3: So then there's another character, another gentleman named Martin Case,
19:55
Speaker 3: as well as Jim Rendell. So these are kind of
19:59
Speaker 3: our cast of care collectively, and they start putting themselves
20:03
Speaker 3: in the chambers. Because the blitz is starting, people are evacuating.
20:08
Speaker 3: The Royal Navy understands they have a problem, but they
20:12
Speaker 3: also have bigger problems with the active warfare that started happening,
20:16
Speaker 3: and so the scientists realize that they are the only
20:20
Speaker 3: possible solution now they are the only ones with the
20:24
Speaker 3: ability to help. And so this lab in downtown London
20:29
Speaker 3: that is making the breathing apparatuses, it's a company called
20:32
Speaker 3: Ciba Gorman. They open their chambers, They're like, do whatever
20:36
Speaker 3: you need. You were here for you use our lab
20:37
Speaker 3: as you will. And so this genetics team puts themselves
20:41
Speaker 3: in these chambers, pressurizes themselves and starts studying these effects
20:47
Speaker 3: of underwater physiology. Now what they discover still shapes pretty
20:54
Speaker 3: much everything we know today about survival underwater. It's wild
21:00
Speaker 3: how much they discovered, and they discovered it all in themselves.
21:05
Speaker 3: And we can get into more details while I'll let
21:07
Speaker 3: you guys kind of lead that, but just to like
21:10
Speaker 3: let it be known, these experiments do not always go well.
21:14
Speaker 3: Some of the effects of what can happen to you underwater.
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Speaker 3: They saw a brief preview with the Thetis crew that
21:19
Speaker 3: came out so roughed up. But you get seizures, you
21:24
Speaker 3: get unconsciousness, you get decompression sickness. In one particular experiment,
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Speaker 3: Helen Spurway kept seizing while she was inside the chamber.
21:34
Speaker 3: And what's important here is you are locked in a
21:37
Speaker 3: metal tube. The whole time, there is no outside help.
21:43
Speaker 3: You are there with your person who's in there with you,
21:45
Speaker 3: and they are your only hope. So that kept happening
21:49
Speaker 3: over and over again, and despite everything that they kept
21:53
Speaker 3: discovering using themselves. Just like the submarine Nurse, they went
21:58
Speaker 3: in there every time saying, today might be my bad day,
22:02
Speaker 3: but we need to figure this out. So I'm going
22:04
Speaker 3: to show up.
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Speaker 1: That's crazy because you know about you just got pants
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Speaker 1: by security and you're like, this also still might be
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Speaker 1: the day.
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Speaker 3: That was the eugenics guy, So that.
22:15
Speaker 1: Was okay, forget that guy, forget that.
22:19
Speaker 4: That guy is a clown.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, And then they served their math. They took their
22:22
Speaker 3: math from studying genetics and they started applying it to
22:25
Speaker 3: their experiments and they started using the math to describe
22:28
Speaker 3: and give to the Royal Navy what the Royal Navy
22:31
Speaker 3: could then do safely. So here's how much stuff you
22:35
Speaker 3: need to bring on your mini subs to scrub out
22:38
Speaker 3: the carbon dioxide. Here's the mini sub volume you can
22:41
Speaker 3: build that starts turning into mini subs that are then
22:44
Speaker 3: scouting the beaches of Normandy in advance of D Day.
22:48
Speaker 3: Here's what you can do in terms of diving. Here's
22:50
Speaker 3: how deep you can go, Here's what gas mixture you need,
22:54
Speaker 3: and so all of these prescriptions start coming out of
22:57
Speaker 3: this lab.
22:58
Speaker 1: Well what are At that point, I think one of
23:01
Speaker 1: our first questions has to be what are mini subs?
23:06
Speaker 1: Because I'll be honest, as one of the most ignorant
23:10
Speaker 1: folks I've ever met, I immediately think it's some kind
23:14
Speaker 1: of cute submarine.
23:15
Speaker 2: Well, I immediately picture the one that imploded that was
23:18
Speaker 2: controlled with the PlayStation room.
23:19
Speaker 4: They argue, how.
23:21
Speaker 3: Sure are you? They are doable? And I love them. Yeah,
23:27
Speaker 3: So traditionally that class of submarines has always been called
23:31
Speaker 3: midget submarines. I feel like we're talking about subs, so
23:34
Speaker 3: it's probably not problematic. I prefer mini subs just because
23:38
Speaker 3: that's you know, but either way, these are submarines that
23:43
Speaker 3: are extremely small, and there's no specific size cut off
23:48
Speaker 3: between a mini sub and a regular sub, but generally
23:52
Speaker 3: mini subs are going to have crews of somewhere between
23:54
Speaker 3: three and ten people at most. And so, yeah, the
23:58
Speaker 3: one that imploded the Titan definitely would qualify as a
24:01
Speaker 3: mini sub, and then the ones that the HL Hunley
24:05
Speaker 3: qualified ad a mini sub that was a crew of eight.
24:07
Speaker 3: So the ones that they were building during World War
24:10
Speaker 3: two were kind of a rogue project. We had like
24:13
Speaker 3: this Royal Navy admiral who was convinced that these were
24:16
Speaker 3: the way forward, even though they'd never really been built successfully,
24:20
Speaker 3: Like nobody's built at this point in time a small
24:23
Speaker 3: sub that has worked in warfare, even though people see
24:27
Speaker 3: the potential. The reason for that has been largely lack
24:31
Speaker 3: of understanding of how to survive in them. Like I said,
24:34
Speaker 3: it's like breathing inside of a plastic bag as opposed
24:37
Speaker 3: to breathing inside of a room.
24:39
Speaker 2: You're not supposed to do.
24:40
Speaker 3: By the way, don't do it. It's a bad idea.
24:44
Speaker 3: You're breathing becomes a lot more sensitive because the changes
24:49
Speaker 3: around you happen so much quicker. So mini subs need
24:52
Speaker 3: a lot more careful, in my opinion, a lot more
24:54
Speaker 3: careful engineering for the breathing apparatuses. Things like that, which,
24:59
Speaker 3: by the way, that one imploded didn't have a breathing apparatus,
25:02
Speaker 3: So pretty sure all that, like, oh you've got for days.
25:05
Speaker 2: One of the manoked, pretty sure it was just a lie,
25:08
Speaker 2: so good times.
25:11
Speaker 3: But yeah, So this kind of rogue admiral starts tapping
25:17
Speaker 3: into this hell Dane group as well and being like, hey,
25:19
Speaker 3: I want to build minisubs. Can you make it work?
25:22
Speaker 3: I want to minisops.
25:23
Speaker 1: That is, by the way, folks, a verbatim and accurate impression.
25:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, thank you. I've practiced that a lot.
25:32
Speaker 3: That's just including the total lack of British accent.
25:38
Speaker 4: I love I love this character.
25:40
Speaker 3: Yeah okay, but anyway there, I mean again, this is
25:43
Speaker 3: a group of people who collectively is all like, yeah,
25:45
Speaker 3: we got to get creative now. So they were on
25:48
Speaker 3: board and they started helping and getting in the information
25:52
Speaker 3: they need. So the the subs he ends up getting built.
25:57
Speaker 3: At first, the Royal Navy is sort of just mally him, right,
26:00
Speaker 3: They're like, yeah, we'll let you waste some resources on
26:03
Speaker 3: this if it'll shut you up. But they're called the
26:06
Speaker 3: x Craft. They come up with this class called the
26:08
Speaker 3: x Craft, and so these are mini subs that are
26:12
Speaker 3: about forty feet long, they're about eighteen feet wide. But
26:15
Speaker 3: we have to understand is that's not living space. That's
26:18
Speaker 3: the outer hull. So you have pressure hull, you have engine,
26:22
Speaker 3: you have tons and tons of equipment. By the time
26:25
Speaker 3: you actually have worked your way in the space for
26:28
Speaker 3: people to live is really tiny. There are pictures of
26:32
Speaker 3: this in the book in Chamber Divers. You can also
26:34
Speaker 3: google them they will come up. But there is one
26:38
Speaker 3: spot in the very center of the X craft that
26:42
Speaker 3: is tall enough for someone to stand up in one
26:44
Speaker 3: person at a time.
26:46
Speaker 2: Wow.
26:47
Speaker 3: So that's what you're living in when you're talking mini
26:50
Speaker 3: sub and these xcraft again started out as this sort
26:55
Speaker 3: of side project, but as this Adimiral is using them
26:59
Speaker 3: and he's star it's kind of demonstrating their purpose. They
27:02
Speaker 3: actually also developed the ability for divers to use the
27:06
Speaker 3: submarine escape apparatuses and exit the X craft on purpose
27:12
Speaker 3: to then dive. So what you've now created is a
27:16
Speaker 3: mini sub that can go in shallow waters, approach to beach,
27:21
Speaker 3: release a person while still underwater, and let them swim
27:24
Speaker 3: ashore without making any bubbles. Because that's how these rebreathers
27:29
Speaker 3: were working. Imagine the special operations potential of that for
27:35
Speaker 3: the first time. That is something that is still a
27:40
Speaker 3: tactic that is considered like an advanced special operations move.
27:45
Speaker 3: Navy seals do this, Marineforce recon do this. That is
27:48
Speaker 3: still a technique that's used today, and it traced one
27:52
Speaker 3: hundred percent back to the scientific group creating the ability
27:55
Speaker 3: to have these substually small volumes. So what you see
27:59
Speaker 3: as the real Navy starts to have their oce moment
28:02
Speaker 3: and realize how valuable this is. They start trying to
28:06
Speaker 3: make as many as they can. There's a shortage of them.
28:09
Speaker 3: They actually lose a couple in a lot of these
28:11
Speaker 3: early missions, which was really sad, but they're learning from
28:15
Speaker 3: it in a positive way and they start sending these over.
28:20
Speaker 3: So the X craft started going over to this little
28:23
Speaker 3: place called Normandy, and what they would do is they
28:26
Speaker 3: would sit on the bottom of the ocean. And we
28:28
Speaker 3: never hear about this part. It's awesome. We never hear
28:31
Speaker 3: about this. They would sit on the bottom of the
28:33
Speaker 3: ocean for eighteen hours a day thanks to their ability
28:37
Speaker 3: to process the breathing gas inside this tiny space. And
28:40
Speaker 3: then at night, when the moon conditions were right and
28:44
Speaker 3: this you know, they would come up and they would
28:47
Speaker 3: release the diver and they would refresh their air. And
28:50
Speaker 3: this they didn't use diving apparatuses for these missions, but
28:53
Speaker 3: they would release them as swimmers and the swimmers would
28:56
Speaker 3: swim in. They would take measurements of the shore. They
29:00
Speaker 3: measured the angles. They took samples of the sand. They
29:05
Speaker 3: noted where there were footprints, because if the Germans were
29:09
Speaker 3: walking there, it means there's no mines, this is a
29:12
Speaker 3: safe place to walk. They noted where there were no footprints.
29:15
Speaker 2: These are all things that were overlooked in that previous
29:18
Speaker 2: massacre situation. There's an absolute lack of recon right, so
29:22
Speaker 2: this is okay.
29:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what Noah's talking about is a raid that
29:26
Speaker 3: occurred in August nineteen forty two at Deepp, France, where
29:29
Speaker 3: they tried the same They tried the same tactic of
29:32
Speaker 3: just like throw as many people as you can at
29:34
Speaker 3: the problem, and it was a massacre. They just got
29:38
Speaker 3: absolutely mowed down. The part of the reason for that
29:43
Speaker 3: was because the beach turned out to be rocks instead
29:45
Speaker 3: of sand. So that small change meant that those rocks
29:49
Speaker 3: got stuck in the tank treads, the tanks all through
29:51
Speaker 3: their treads, some of them literally like caught on fire
29:55
Speaker 3: from it. So all of a sudden you're making get oh,
30:00
Speaker 3: the little beach change ruined everything, or it was not
30:03
Speaker 3: the only problem, but they didn't have recon And so
30:08
Speaker 3: now before Normandy, you're seeing the importance of recon. They're
30:11
Speaker 3: taking soil samples. They brought those soil samples back to
30:14
Speaker 3: the UK. They actually had a NASCAR driver evaluating them.
30:19
Speaker 3: He was someone who was famous for driving on sand.
30:22
Speaker 3: He'd been flown over there to be like, what will
30:24
Speaker 3: this type of sand hole? They were working with geologists.
30:28
Speaker 3: They had the troops practice on beaches with the exact
30:32
Speaker 3: same angle and sand type on purpose, so that when
30:37
Speaker 3: they were running they knew exactly what it would feel
30:39
Speaker 3: like the day of And these scouting troops, these these
30:44
Speaker 3: they're called cop COPP. It stands for Combined Operations Pilotage
30:49
Speaker 3: Parties with the X craft are the ones that got
30:51
Speaker 3: all of that information. They got it for the Royal Navy.
30:55
Speaker 3: It was completely classified and that's why it wasn't really
30:59
Speaker 3: talked to them out until modern times. It's wild you
31:10
Speaker 3: read these reports of what they were doing. It's wild
31:12
Speaker 3: because Saving Private Ryan really famously characterized what happened on
31:18
Speaker 3: Omaha Beach, one of the two American beaches where number one,
31:22
Speaker 3: they ran aground on like raised ridges that were still
31:28
Speaker 3: underwater before they reached the proper beach, and a lot
31:31
Speaker 3: of people drowned because they were running in from these
31:35
Speaker 3: raised ridges, and then they would get to a deeper
31:37
Speaker 3: area called a runnel, and because they were wearing equipment,
31:40
Speaker 3: they drowned. And then they also slightly missed their landing
31:44
Speaker 3: target and accidentally landed under a big heavy artillery battery,
31:50
Speaker 3: which Tom Hanks points out. He's sitting in the sand
31:53
Speaker 3: and he's like, this is an Omaha Beach. That's Omaha Beach, right,
31:57
Speaker 3: So that those two mistakes were drivers of huge quantities
32:05
Speaker 3: of the casualties on Omaha. And both of those things
32:08
Speaker 3: were in these British reports in advance. They knew this
32:13
Speaker 3: by January of nineteen forty four. These scouts have reported
32:16
Speaker 3: these two things are very likely at Omaha Beach. It
32:19
Speaker 3: needs to be approached with caution. It's going to be
32:21
Speaker 3: the hardest speech to land on. I don't know whether
32:25
Speaker 3: or not that information was past the Americans. I don't
32:28
Speaker 3: know whether the British gave it to the Americans for
32:31
Speaker 3: that reason. But I do know that that shows you
32:34
Speaker 3: the power of scouting and the power of this underwater
32:37
Speaker 3: stealth that was developed for that same purpose.
32:41
Speaker 1: I mean, it's phenomenal because this is, as you said,
32:44
Speaker 1: perhaps out of necessity or the legacy of necessity. This
32:48
Speaker 1: is a story that could not be told for a
32:52
Speaker 1: little while, right, especially given all the scientific advancements it
32:57
Speaker 1: informed that would later be a a big part of
33:01
Speaker 1: special operations in a lot of modern militaries.
33:03
Speaker 2: It was the classification, right of the I mean it
33:07
Speaker 2: was all.
33:07
Speaker 3: Classified because this was still secret technology. They still didn't
33:11
Speaker 3: want people to know what they had done and what
33:12
Speaker 3: they could do.
33:14
Speaker 1: I wish there was still you know, uh, what's that?
33:17
Speaker 1: What's that old saw about the uh uh radar and
33:21
Speaker 1: eating carrots? I wish we had some. I wish we
33:25
Speaker 1: had some.
33:28
Speaker 3: Like the Allies had developed a more advanced version of radar,
33:32
Speaker 3: and to compensate, they started spreading rumors that they discovered
33:36
Speaker 3: that carrots and beta carotene improved the vision of their pilots.
33:40
Speaker 3: And that was like, that was like the rumor that
33:43
Speaker 3: they started to like hide the fact they had new technology.
33:46
Speaker 3: So what do you think? Can it be spinach based?
33:49
Speaker 3: What do you start?
33:51
Speaker 4: It's got to be.
33:52
Speaker 1: It's got to be spinach based.
33:54
Speaker 4: How are they how do they know everything about the
33:57
Speaker 4: beach spinach power?
34:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, we got a partially the classified document about spinach.
34:05
Speaker 4: I've said too much.
34:08
Speaker 3: They're better you're better at holding your breath if you
34:11
Speaker 3: have quantity.
34:13
Speaker 4: That's it. That's perfect.
34:14
Speaker 1: So we spread that to the Cambridge five or whatever
34:17
Speaker 1: as their spine. So in this though, we, as you said,
34:24
Speaker 1: we have to return to the fact that the experiments
34:28
Speaker 1: these hardcore maverick rogue scientists were conducting because Noel and
34:34
Speaker 1: I both love the word maverick, it's just the ten
34:39
Speaker 1: ten work. They were conducting these experiments in service of
34:43
Speaker 1: a greater good. So they are they're kind of violating
34:47
Speaker 1: typical established ethical constraints of experiments, right.
34:51
Speaker 3: They are very much for today's standards. So a lot
34:56
Speaker 3: of what we talk about today when we talk about
34:58
Speaker 3: informed consent and we talk about ethical standards came from
35:02
Speaker 3: World War Two, especially the discovery of the atrocities of
35:06
Speaker 3: the concentration camps. Because I will say I did want
35:11
Speaker 3: to present a little bit about what one particular German
35:16
Speaker 3: scientist was doing in the book, because I thought he
35:18
Speaker 3: had a really interesting ethical conundrum. He was a German
35:21
Speaker 3: aviator who then started studying some of the same things
35:25
Speaker 3: for the German side. But he thought it was absolutely
35:29
Speaker 3: appalling the way the other German scientists were operating, and
35:33
Speaker 3: so he also used himself. He would not test on
35:37
Speaker 3: unconsenting Jewish subjects. He wouldn't, but he was being forced.
35:42
Speaker 3: You gotta respect that, like he was being forced. He's
35:44
Speaker 3: in Nazi health Germany. He's being told do these things,
35:47
Speaker 3: tell us these answers, and he was like, I will
35:50
Speaker 3: do it, but only on myself. So you got to
35:53
Speaker 3: kind of you got to kind of respect the difficulty
35:55
Speaker 3: of that situation and the fact that he chose himself
35:59
Speaker 3: over the prisoners. Because after World War Two, that's when
36:03
Speaker 3: you start seeing the Nuremberg Trials. The Nurmberg Trials are
36:06
Speaker 3: where we get most of our modern code of ethics
36:08
Speaker 3: for experimentation, So that's where we get most of our
36:13
Speaker 3: what not to do Now, testing on yourself is actually
36:17
Speaker 3: what not to do things because you can so easily
36:22
Speaker 3: bias the data, even accidental. So one of the buzz
36:28
Speaker 3: phrases and science that gets turned a lot without explanation
36:31
Speaker 3: is double blind controlled study. What that means double blind
36:36
Speaker 3: is both the person getting the treatment and the investigator
36:41
Speaker 3: do not know who is getting what. So if I'm
36:45
Speaker 3: giving Noel some drugs that I want to tell please, yeah,
36:48
Speaker 3: I do not know if I am giving Noel the
36:51
Speaker 3: drug or the place ebo because like just we as humans,
36:56
Speaker 3: we have so much nonverbal communication, we have so many
36:59
Speaker 3: and inherent biases that we can that is the source
37:04
Speaker 3: of a lot of scientific error. And it doesn't have
37:07
Speaker 3: to be nefarious, like it doesn't have to be people
37:10
Speaker 3: doing it on purpose. And that's why you do that
37:12
Speaker 3: double blinding. So with these experiments where they were doing
37:16
Speaker 3: it on themselves, that was out of necessity. But now
37:19
Speaker 3: it's really considered not allowed because of the ease of
37:24
Speaker 3: creating essentially junk science or incorrect results. Like you want
37:28
Speaker 3: to you want emotional separation so that you can be
37:32
Speaker 3: as objective as possible. But yeah, most of that happened
37:35
Speaker 3: post World War Two. At this time period, it was
37:37
Speaker 3: still fairly commonplace for scientists to use themselves first because
37:41
Speaker 3: like I said, these are people who are the most
37:45
Speaker 3: passionate about their topics.
37:47
Speaker 1: Right, and this is this is where as we're as
37:51
Speaker 1: we're wrapping up a little bit, as as we're approached
37:54
Speaker 1: to close, we have to talk about what you established earlier.
37:59
Speaker 1: This was dangerous for these folks, right, They're not doing
38:03
Speaker 1: they're not doing a theoretical math, they're not necessary they
38:07
Speaker 1: are at some point, I imagine arguing over notepads. Sure,
38:11
Speaker 1: but they're doing it after they've survived this barrage of
38:16
Speaker 1: conditions in hyperbaric chambers. Can you tell us about some
38:19
Speaker 1: of the close calls or things that yeah, got close
38:23
Speaker 1: to going very badly.
38:25
Speaker 3: One of the early close calls that they had was
38:28
Speaker 3: JBS Haldane was the test subject that day, and JBS
38:31
Speaker 3: Haldane was known for being kind of a large man
38:34
Speaker 3: for the He was six foot one, which for that
38:36
Speaker 3: generation was massive, and he called himself fat like that
38:39
Speaker 3: was his self descriptor. So he was a big guy.
38:43
Speaker 3: The reason that matters is he's now trapped in a
38:45
Speaker 3: tiny metal tube with Martin Case who is much much smaller.
38:50
Speaker 3: What they were testing that day is how deep they
38:52
Speaker 3: could go well breathing oxygen. And what they did not know,
38:56
Speaker 3: and they really were pioneers in discovering, is that you
39:00
Speaker 3: have too much oxygen it can cause a seizure. So
39:04
Speaker 3: JBS heal Dane is the test subject. They think they're
39:08
Speaker 3: going down for just a few cognitive tests. Excuse me.
39:12
Speaker 3: They think he's going to do some math, hey math.
39:14
Speaker 3: They think he's going to like move a little metal
39:17
Speaker 3: ball around so they can trust his dexterity. What ends
39:20
Speaker 3: up happening is JBS how Dane not only has a
39:24
Speaker 3: massive seizure, but he ends up with multiple seizures with
39:28
Speaker 3: lots of mental confusion in between. So this huge man
39:33
Speaker 3: is now barging around this tiny enclosed space trying to
39:37
Speaker 3: physically bash his way out of the metal walls, because again, you.
39:41
Speaker 2: Are confining out, Yeah.
39:42
Speaker 3: You are confined. It is not a place that we
39:45
Speaker 3: instinctively want to be. He freaks out. Martin cases in
39:49
Speaker 3: there single handedly trying to restrain his massive boss as
39:53
Speaker 3: a much smaller person inside this metal walld cylinder where
39:57
Speaker 3: there is no formal communication with the outside and he
40:01
Speaker 3: has to try and express this emergency through tapping on
40:04
Speaker 3: the wall with a hammer, so again there is no help.
40:10
Speaker 3: So that I was really almost honored to be able
40:13
Speaker 3: to write that scene in like extreme detail because they
40:16
Speaker 3: sat down and they had like a really detailed debrief
40:19
Speaker 3: about it. They were incredible scientists in the sense that
40:23
Speaker 3: they had timekeepers, like they had stopped synchronized watches like
40:26
Speaker 3: timekeepers inside the chamber, outside the chamber, and then whoever
40:30
Speaker 3: was driving the chamber. So there are three different accounts
40:33
Speaker 3: that were alignable by time as well as like their
40:36
Speaker 3: debrief after and so I was able to write like
40:39
Speaker 3: minute by minute of how that works. And in that incident,
40:43
Speaker 3: Hall Dane is like hurling himself against this metal wall
40:48
Speaker 3: so hard he fractures one of the vertebrates in his spine,
40:52
Speaker 3: so he literally breaks his own back. And this is
40:56
Speaker 3: sort of important because they're at the start of the
40:59
Speaker 3: time series, so this is their example. Any day could
41:04
Speaker 3: be your day. This is what could happen. And they
41:07
Speaker 3: kept getting in, Yeah, they kept getting in, but what
41:10
Speaker 3: And then, you know, since you said we're kind of
41:12
Speaker 3: wrapping up, I really love to tie this back to
41:15
Speaker 3: D Day because I wanted to end the book with
41:18
Speaker 3: Dday on purpose. So you know, after that there is
41:22
Speaker 3: like a little wrap up chapter about what they did
41:23
Speaker 3: the rest of their lives. But the last chapter and
41:26
Speaker 3: the chapter that I think I'm prouder of that chapter
41:29
Speaker 3: than anything else I've ever written. I worked so hard
41:32
Speaker 3: to tell the whole story of D Day from the
41:35
Speaker 3: perspective of individual people who were there, using like oral
41:39
Speaker 3: histories and records and things like that, so it is
41:42
Speaker 3: it is a collection of storming the beaches from individuals
41:46
Speaker 3: who did it, and the reason that some of them
41:53
Speaker 3: survived is because they went in with custom gas mixes
41:58
Speaker 3: in their breathing apparatusus and custom protective here to protect
42:03
Speaker 3: them against mines in the water that were developed by
42:06
Speaker 3: this exact group, And they didn't know where it came from,
42:11
Speaker 3: but they knew that they had these sheets of guidelines,
42:14
Speaker 3: and those guidelines were rock solid. These were good scientists,
42:18
Speaker 3: and so on the American beaches, the Ordnance disposal experts,
42:24
Speaker 3: the frog men, they went in wearing kind of like
42:27
Speaker 3: lays up foods. They went in anticipating sand because of
42:30
Speaker 3: that's just the way the tides were at Omaha in Utah.
42:34
Speaker 3: But on the British beaches, they sent in divers, they
42:38
Speaker 3: sent in people with breathing apparatuses. They had a hard
42:41
Speaker 3: time at first because just the number of propellers overhead
42:43
Speaker 3: made that job really hard to do safely. But as
42:46
Speaker 3: soon as the propellers start and the ship start being
42:49
Speaker 3: channeled properly, those are the guys who are down there
42:52
Speaker 3: underwater dismantling the bombs and mines. To expand and expand
42:57
Speaker 3: and expand the amount of beachfront that allies can safely
43:01
Speaker 3: land on. So on the British beaches and then expanding outward,
43:05
Speaker 3: you have underwater divers dismantling ordinance with their own hands,
43:10
Speaker 3: and they're able to do it because this group made
43:13
Speaker 3: them custom blends of high oxygen that was exactly the
43:17
Speaker 3: right amount for normandy and they had not one single
43:21
Speaker 3: diving related casualty. So we yeah, we so rarely talk
43:26
Speaker 3: about in when we talk about where, we so rarely
43:28
Speaker 3: talk about the things that went extremely right. They didn't
43:33
Speaker 3: have a single diving problem and it was because this
43:36
Speaker 3: group had done it all in themselves in their lab
43:38
Speaker 3: in London during the Blitz to make sure that when
43:41
Speaker 3: they handed these apparatuses and this information of people, it
43:44
Speaker 3: was as safe as humanly possible.
43:47
Speaker 2: Success.
43:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, big success on the diving.
43:50
Speaker 2: Yeah.
43:52
Speaker 1: And we just hatched our our own disinfo campaign about
43:57
Speaker 1: eating spinach, yes and breathing differently. This has been an
44:03
Speaker 1: absolute pleasure. You have taken us on such a wild ride, Rachel.
44:09
Speaker 4: And just so.
44:10
Speaker 1: Everybody knows we are not blowing smoke or we're not
44:14
Speaker 1: breathing the wrong gasp when we say that. Chamber Divers
44:18
Speaker 1: is a phenomenal book, as is in the Waves A
44:22
Speaker 1: thanks well, thank you, for creative Actually, you know, thank
44:26
Speaker 1: you for putting in the footwork and traveling to foreign lands. Yeah,
44:31
Speaker 1: to get this hidden research. Where can people learn more
44:35
Speaker 1: about your work and just follow you in general?
44:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm pretty googleable. My author website is Rachel
44:43
Speaker 3: Lance Rights dot com. People are feel are free feel
44:46
Speaker 3: people are free to reach out to me through there.
44:49
Speaker 3: I'm kind of rejiggering my social media presence. I was
44:52
Speaker 3: primarily on Twitter, trying to move into like kind of Instagram,
44:56
Speaker 3: maybe blue Sky a little bit, but my handles are
44:58
Speaker 3: always apt underwater lamps. I committed the cardinal sin of publishing,
45:03
Speaker 3: which is I was not really available to talk about
45:07
Speaker 3: the story. So I really appreciate you having me now
45:09
Speaker 3: and like, yeah, it's been great, thank you now.
45:13
Speaker 2: At anytime moving forward, I'm sure we'd always love to
45:16
Speaker 2: hang out and talk more about this stuff. Thanks for
45:19
Speaker 2: joining us.
45:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I do respond to that, So people are
45:21
Speaker 3: welcome to reach out to me, and yeah I am.
45:24
Speaker 3: I am working on a third book. We're going to
45:25
Speaker 3: go to World War One for that one, but it's
45:27
Speaker 3: not public yet, so.
45:31
Speaker 4: You get the.
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Speaker 1: INSIGHTE scoop but a classified classified projectation. Yes, yes, it's
45:39
Speaker 1: an RL classification. Yes, thank you so much. Thanks to
45:43
Speaker 1: our super producer mister Max Williams Alex Williams, who composed
45:46
Speaker 1: this track.
45:47
Speaker 4: Uh, Noel, do we have a good.
45:49
Speaker 1: Maritime insult for Jonathan Strickland ak the quister?
45:53
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, you put me on the spot.
45:55
Speaker 4: Okay? Any good ones?
45:57
Speaker 2: Race Kirby Dog, Perhaps that's a good boy.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, Rachel.
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Speaker 1: What's like a sub mariner insult for someone?
46:07
Speaker 4: Or you know anything?
46:09
Speaker 3: I mean usually honestly, like real ones, there's just a
46:11
Speaker 3: lot of profanity.
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Speaker 2: Okay, we'll go with These are hard, these are these
46:17
Speaker 2: are hard drinking Mavericky, there we go all over it.
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Speaker 4: Who else do we think?
46:25
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, we gotta thank Chris Frasciotis and he's
46:27
Speaker 2: Jeff cos here in Spira. We've got to thank a j.
46:29
Speaker 2: Mohammas Jacobs, the puzzler who is who was a lovely man.
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Speaker 2: We have nothing bad to say about? Yeah, and thank you,
46:37
Speaker 2: Thanks you too, but we'll see you next.
46:39
Speaker 3: Time, folks.
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Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
46:49
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.