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29. Working With Your Spouse: The Truth About Building a Business and Family · The Favourite Self Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think I am most proud of the woman who sat on the couch at our second house together and asked me if I thought 300 bucks was too much to spend on a course.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Freelance writing business course.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I am so proud of where she is now.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Favorite Self Podcast.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I like to think of it not as your future self or your best self, but your favorite self.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: My favorite self that just makes me feel the truest version of me.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: What lights your favorite self on fire?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Carly Ottaway, founder, author, storyteller, and a woman who learned that building a successful life means nothing if it doesn't feel like yours.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is for women who are building businesses, raising families, leading movements, and asking themselves, is this it or is there more available to me?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is your invitation to come back to yourself.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Let's dig in.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to another episode of the Favorite Self Podcast.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: I am so excited today.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: I have a very special guest.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: I might even go as far as to say a dream guest, someone that I have been looking forward to interviewing since I launched this podcast.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Took a little while to get him on, yes, him, our first male guest, also at the same time.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, my husband, my business partner, Luke.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be here today.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Your first podcast interview.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then you added extra pressure by saying first male, so representative.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think this conversation's a long time coming.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's really nice to be able to share the conversations that we have more behind the scenes and bring them to this community because I think they can help a lot of people and we get a lot of questions.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And to start things off, I'd really actually like to reminisce a little bit and go back in time 11 years ago, before, even before the business, so the business actually, Web of Words is almost 12 years old now, but before the business, before the kids, before all of the wild things that we have experienced together over the last decade plus, what do you think made us feel confident enough in ourselves and each other to make that decision to go into business together?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think yeah, it's a great question because I remember at the beginning I wasn't confident.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think there, I think we both had doubts, but we also I think for me at least just had an idea that it was the right thing.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was everything kind of pushed towards doing this together.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I know when you first asked me, I was like, no.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then the more I I thought about it, I was like, hey, maybe, maybe this could work.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um because I also remember too, like talking to I think our family was was pretty supportive.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I do think that it also came with like caution, like, oh, but be careful.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also remember like friends at the time, who maybe aren't friends anymore, uh had said, like, oh, you don't want to do that, you don't want to go into a business with your wife.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I remember them saying that and being like, but I think I actually do.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I'm not sure what was the the final push that made me feel like yeah, I should say yes to this.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just remember we were laying in bed one night and we were just kind of talking about you brought it up in like the what if, and I just kind of was like, Yep, let's do it.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't know what the final push was, and and to be honest, I don't know if there even was something that was the final push, or it was just me thinking of I wasn't really happy where I was working the job I was working.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you were looking for you were growing, you had grown faster, I think, than you thought you could ever possibly grow.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it also was just a uh a situation that we needed to find someone to to work with you or for you, and I needed to find a way out of what I was doing, and it it was kind of a perfect situation, and here we are.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I don't think we had any idea, at least I'll speak for myself.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I didn't have any idea that Web of Words would become what it is now from back then.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think you had maybe actually at that time the bigger vision for the business.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think our parents had any idea.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think our group of friends did.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was more a situation of, you know, we were in our 20s, we didn't have a lot of big expenses, it was kind of like, okay, why not try it out and what do you have to lose?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I think part of that too was you being you were in the business for a year, right?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: You were you were so focused on trying to, I remember you were trying to make the same salary you're making at your the job you had left to do this, and you did that pretty quickly.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think for me on the outside looking in, being like, man, she just did all this in one year, look at the like how could this not keep growing?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like if she did this in one year, where could we be 11 years later?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where could we be five years later?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: So for me on the outside looking in, I think it's always easier too on the outside looking in because you're not in the actual work at the time.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was easy for me to say, like, oh man, yeah, this is something that can grow.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I think that's probably the angle that I took.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's wild because it definitely felt like a big deal at the time, but looking back, like literally that is the one decision that I think changed everything for us because that dictated how we were able to grow the business together, how we were able to then have our kids and raise our kids and be so present and have the same schedules and just work together for the last decade plus, which is wild.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that I talk about a lot and have written about in my book is how much I leaned on your belief in me in those early years, too, when you joined, and I think that's something we've been able to do for each other, and really the beauty of being in business together with a partnership, and at the same time, there's so many challenges that come with that when you also then are partnering and parenting and partnering and managing the household, and you know, our our capacity has expanded in wild ways since then.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious from your perspective, you know, one thing that we kind of I feel like we had this silent agreement early on that when one of us was down, the other one had to be up, and we were able to lean on each other in that way.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious from your perspective, how that played into your own role in the business and if there's a time that you can remember where we really had to lean in that belief in each other.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there's it's it's tough, right?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think we often say that one of us is down, the other one's got to pick the other, we always look at the other person to pick us up.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that can also be tricky because you don't also maybe there's a reason they're down, right?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the reason is something in the business isn't going right and it needs to be fixed.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so me if say if you're down and upset about something and I come in and you'd be like, oh, don't worry about it, that's not gonna help and fix things either.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you really gotta take a look at it, and then you have to wear both hats.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: You have to wear a uh, oh, I'm your business partner, oh, I'm your husband, I'm your the the the the father of your kids.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like you gotta you gotta wear a lot of different hats when you're looking at why the other person might be feeling the way they are.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think uh identifying is this a business problem or specifically for business.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: If this if this is is this a business problem or is this just a life problem?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: A life problem because we're not getting, you know, the the the kids aren't letting us sleep through the night or we don't feel like we have the the proper support.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think it's it's it's important to differentiate that way too.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: But um no, I think it's crazy important to be able to pick up the other person because uh especially when you're a husband and wife and you work together, they're the boundary of where does work stop and where does life begin is kind of non-existent.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: You you gotta make the boundary yourself.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're not picking up the your your life partner, your business partner, your everything, what are we doing, right?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's it's really important today, and we do our best work when we're both feeling uh the best we can about business, life, everything.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, and it's harder and harder to do in today's world, but I still think we always find a way, and I just think it's it's so important not just for us, but for our team, for our clients, that we bring the right attitude every day when we when we come to work.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you think it is that makes us like be this good fit together?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think we're off in like that yin and yang kind of dynamic.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Fear that I'll feel the wrath of Carly.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I don't know.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious because I feel like you know, we we've really gotten it took us a while to really figure out our roles for the two of us and and build the team, you know, and figure out all the team's roles.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, that's a good point, because it's not really what you're asking, but I remember uh when we f when I first started working with Webbo Words and my basement, or my office was in a basement with a tiny little window, you had this glorious giant window office basking in the orange glow of the sun.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, um, and I remember being down there, and I think the one of the first things I I did when I started with Web Awards was I was making images for social media and you were writing content plans.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's how it had started.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I would get you images for content plans and be like, well, now what?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you'd be like, I don't have anything else right now.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that allowed me then to go and do other work on the business where it was uh finding, you know, um different ways to improve our operations, different ways of helping improve our team or looking for new team members.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: So our systems, our tech.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think uh having the myself have a slower start to Web of Words was actually at the time I was thinking, I don't know if this is gonna work.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm not doing all of the jobs.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: My last job, I wore a bunch of hats.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Web of Words, I wear a bunch of hats, but I wasn't wearing all of those hats yet for Web Awards.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think kind of finding those hats maybe at the beginning was was really important to helping us grow to where we are.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it gave us the flexibility to develop your role and my role eventually around our superpowers.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's actually really cool because we were both on the front line, so to speak.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like we were in it, you know, doing the client work right from the start and wore those hats.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so we understood as we scaled and built the team, we knew like what where we needed to fill the gaps in terms of our own skill sets, first of all, and like hiring people that could do things better than we could, but then also that allowed us to like truly step into our own superpowers in that as well, and which I think has been such a key part of how we've been able to scale, and you had that perspective where you could work on the business while I was still very much in the business in those early days, and then it took me a little longer to get out so that I could also be working on the business.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think I think there was tense moments, there's always tense moments in any job set work setting, and I think we had we definitely had tense moments when we were first starting as we were trying to figure feel each other out of what each person was doing, what they were capable of doing, what we wanted to do, what we were good at doing, and I think that still to somewhat somewhat continues to this day, right?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: As our as our our roles continue to evolve and our our our agencies continue to evolve, that's gonna keep happening.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's important to look back and rely on that experience of hey, it's gonna be okay, we just gotta find the right path.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, pivoting a little bit, how do you think being in business together and really entrepreneurship as a whole, being entrepreneurs prepared us for parenthood and to be the kind of parents that we want to be?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, every season that we've experienced in business and parenthood continues to stretch us in different ways, but we're in a situation now that we probably didn't realize at the time we were a little naive to just how much we were putting on the line by putting every going all in on the family business, right?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And putting everything into it.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: So now our that's our household income, that's paying our mortgage, that's paying for our kids' sports, and paying for our teams and their livelihood as well.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just curious, um, from your perspective, like what do you think it taught us to get us to the life that we're at living now?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I was super naive of dropping Forever the Realist.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Forever the realist.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that was one of my big biggest concerns when we first started was oh my god, we're giving up, you know, we had already given up your guaranteed salary so you could start the agency, and then we were giving up my guaranteed salary to join the agency.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think it's always been I think you're right.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was probably naive to just at the time we were living in a um a small little semi and life was very manageable.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: There was no kids, we had a dog, you know, that was it.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I I think I don't think the grandparents are gonna like think of this, but they're probably not watching or listening anyway.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think the the the starting the in business together, we didn't have there was no help, right?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: We were kind of going on our up by ourselves, figuring out what worked, what didn't work, and that transferred over literally into oh, now we have kids, and uh here's COVID, and daycares are closed, and we just gotta make this work.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think we did that.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think probably us working together and and finding ways to do that that that made sense and that that worked, and then doing the same thing with our kids, because we had to do the same thing, like we when when daycares was closed and we were tag teaming in and out of you're working, I'm working, who's watching the kids, I'm watching the kids, you're watching the kids.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we just always have found a way to make it work.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the same thing about our our agency.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've always found a way to make it work.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I I think I try and say to you when when something comes up whether it feels like a big ugh at work, it's hey, we've always found a way to make it work.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's do that right now.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Let's sit down and let's work the problem, let's find a way through.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think we've done that in business, we do that with the kids.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and like as you alluded to, it's only gonna get busier and busier as we add sports and dance and and all the other fun extracurriculars that they're doing into that.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's so true, and it really helps me reflect and appreciate.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: We talk a lot about how we we are the village, like we built our own village, and and you show you remind me that that was from very early on, even in the business, it wasn't with just a dog.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then of course, like we raised our kids during the pandemic.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: There was literally no village at all, and still had our business.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Our business was like taking off at that time, so we just continue to find new ways to adapt and built a lot of resilience that I think has allowed us to navigate trying times as well.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think the reality of being in business for 11 years together, 10 years together, 11 years total, is we've seen, and in the time that we've been in business when the world has experienced things that it literally has never experienced.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say we've seen it all by any means, but we've experienced a lot.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what's really cool about the longevity of it and playing the long game of it is you build so much self-trust too, because you know you have the proof.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: If I got through that, if I got through that season of like having young babies with a business in a pandemic with no village and then losing our house in a fire and rebuilding everything.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: I forgot about the fire.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: What can't I get through?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we take that into now, you know, when we do have shifts in the business or or you hear, you know, things about the economy, and or AI comes in and threatens to take all of our jobs, but we just have this determination and agility and confidence, knowing we can adapt, we can figure it out together.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think part of that is being each other's biggest cheerleaders, right?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like when when whether you're down or you're up, always being there for the other person, that's the most important thing.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and it that makes me think too of something I've I've said to you, you think even before we were in in business together.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if something comes up and I'll say to you, is this gonna bother you in in three hours?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and you might say yes.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, Okay, it's gonna bother you in three days, it's gonna bother you in three weeks, it's gonna bother you in three months.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: And usually by the time we're at three days or three weeks, it's like, no, it probably won't.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's just any problem we can get through together.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I've always been confident that whether it's kids, work, whatever, we can get through it.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I actually I'm also even reflecting on those early years of parenthood when we were building the business on such limited sleep because our second, especially, has never been much of a sleeper.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: It still isn't.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And we just had this, like, really, we were able to tap tag in each other and let the kids were sick.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we just found we always found a way to make it work, like you said.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it it really makes me realize in so many ways.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I have this conversation with my other friends who are entrepreneurs or self-employed, like, I don't know how parents that are working like corporate jobs, having a long commute that you had before you joined Web of Words into the city, you know, are dri driving in their car for two hours plus a day.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how they're managing that with young kids.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think you yeah, before and after school care, likely.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: But then you don't get the same experience that we've had with our kids that we we wouldn't trade for anything, right?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like we we talk so much about how we've been able to be there for our kids for those before school moments, those after school moments.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've and as much as it's hard, some days you wish you had an extra half hour, 45 minutes of work, which we can still find ways to to try and squeak that out.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, being able to be there for our kids has been uh something I I don't think you're ever gonna look back and say, I wish I didn't spend that much time with my kids.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think we're pretty lucky.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think it goes to show, you know, one, the importance of like the partner that you choose in your life, in business, in personal life, like how that is such a big decision that influences so much of your life.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: But then that decision to go into business together, like again, I don't feel like I realized.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: I knew it was a big decision, I knew it was a game changer for our situation then, but I really didn't realize just how much it was gonna impact you.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: You don't realize the yeah, the trickle-down effect, right?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: You don't realize it 11 years ago or 10 years ago, hey husband, come work with me.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: You don't really recognize the the effect it's gonna have later of the time you're gonna be able to spend with your kids and the time you're gonna wish you had time to work on your business, but you're not like there there's there's a trade-off.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, I don't think we recognized that when we went into business together, but it's something that if I were to go back, I would I would do it all again.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm interrupting this episode briefly to ask you a question.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: What if your business could feel more like your favorite self too?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you've grown, evolved, or stepped into a new chapter, but your brand hasn't quite caught up, that's where we come in.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: At Web of Words, the creative agency I lead with my partner Luke, we help service-based businesses bring their brilliance to life through strategic branding, websites, and social media marketing.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: My team and I help you put words to what makes you different and create a brand that feels so true to you and connects with the people that you are here to serve.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: We're also offering SEO and AI optimization audits to help you understand how your business shows up in search engines and AI tools and where there's room to improve.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're ready to be known for what you're actually brilliant at and ready to be attracting more of the dreamy aligned clients that you want to be calling in, visit www.webofwords.ca.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'll leave the link in the show notes.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Makes me think too of now our kids are getting to see us build this business and they're getting to an age where they like kind of start are paying attention a little bit more this morning.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: I even told our youngest, who's five, that we were recording a podcast together today, and you know, he might not.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've put on the podcast in the car before, and he's like, Mom, turn this off, like put my music on.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I we get to show them the the kids came to my book signing event on the weekend you brought them and they've been able to come to events, or like, you know, we tell them about our day, and so it's really cool to think about how it's impacting them in a way that is still invisible.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like we see what we see how it impacts now, and us being able to be present and show up in ways that they probably take a little bit for granted just because they don't know any different, but to think of how it's gonna impact them in the long run, and you can speak to that because your dad was an entrepreneur and really he was someone who I think expanded both of our um proof of possibility in a lot of ways because he was very successful, especially when he like sold his business and what he was able to create from nothing.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm so curious, yeah, if you have any thoughts about that about how it's impacting our kids and how it impacted you having your and your dad is.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think for like specifically with me and my dad, like I can remember, and we've talked about this a bunch, but uh when I was a kid, like he would work six, seven days a week.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: So um I remember, you know, you'd you'd I would wait, oh when's dad gonna be home?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: When's dad?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: You'd wait for you know the headlights to come down the street and be like, oh dad, and um, and he was all always working.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he also found time for us.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like he coached our baseball teams, he coached our hockey teams, he really did his best to be there for those events.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and now yeah, the kids get to see, our kids get to see us the same way.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And um it's funny, I think this was back in April when I when I did a video for your birthday and had the kids sit on this the same couch and was asking, you know, what is what does mom do for work?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um it was uh our youngest who said, you know, I don't know if he said that he said I think I think he said that you know, mom's a writer and she talks on her any and she works on her phone.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then afterwards I said, and what does dad do?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: He said, You fix things and drive places where it was my job.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like, oh, cool.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: But that's just his perspective.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um I don't mind being in his eye someone who fixes things.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's great.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I, you know, I come down to his toys on my desk all the time waiting to be fixed.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: So um if that's the perspective our kids have of us, I think we're we're doing a good job.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: You also get all the stains out of their laundry because you are the laundry guy, which I think is another big part, and I'd like to just share a little bit about that because I think you know, we've found a way of balancing the household too.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: I say often, I feel like if I if my role was just like the business and being a mom, I would be thriving.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the fact that on top of all that, that means you're also like planning all these events, um, you know, putting doing constant loads of laundry, doing constant dishwasher trips or loading and unloading and like making all the meals and all the snacks, that's the stuff that I feel like weighs on you.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, we've found a way of of really defining our roles and each of that to have this equal load.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I hope I I I feel that way.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you feel that way too.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious like what your perspective on that and why that works for us.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know why it works for us.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think it works for us because it has to work for us.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: One, but and I think the way that that kind of came about too was when I first joined the business, it was kind of like we both just kind of took this mentality of if it's gotta get done, it's gotta get done.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that's uh work or whether that's chores, you know, that that's that's the dishwasher, that's the laundry, that's planning dinner, all those things just gotta get done.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I have time in my day where I'm waiting on something from the team or waiting on something from you, or waiting on something from the client, yeah, let's go do a load of laundry, let's go flip the dishwasher.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just things gotta get done, let's do them.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the attitude we both kind of bring to not just business but to life.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it just naturally happened and happens.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think you are the fixer and you are a very hard worker, but I all have always said that's a superpower of yours, how you always see the solution and you always find the solution, and which I think is why I feel confident to lean on that, like know that you have that superpower, and I get to lean on that when things get hard, and I'm like, well, I know Luke will figure this out.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And in the business, when like you know, something goes awry even on the web design side, because things can happen all the time in that world, and we learn things all the time because there's just new problems that arise.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm always like, no, Luke, we'll find a way to figure it out.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think, but that and I think thank you.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's a lot of pressure.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, but I I think too, it's it's kind of like that's why our clients come to us, right?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Even if it's not something that we've caused, which is I mean, rarely it's something that we've caused, it's just like things happen.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's kind of like, well, that's what we're here for.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're our job is to, and we always say we want our team to be solution focused, right?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Come to us.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a problem, come to us, but what what things have you tried or what things can we try?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I try and wear that hat kind of in in life, is is okay, what can we do?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: What can we do to what's the solution to fix this?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how can we make this better?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: How can we make the client feel better?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, at the end of the day, that's what we're here to do, right?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: So okay.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of the team, I'd love to bring this up too because again, when I got into business, when I built this business, I just wanted to write for a living, I just wanted to do my own thing.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was very much like a solopreneurship kind of vision that I had.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then you came in with this vision of growing, which has been so key and and how we've been able to impact even more people with the business, of course.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's been so fulfilling to see our team grow and be able to grow with them over years.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've had really I'm at a point where like one of the things I'm most proud of in our business is our team and the team that we've built and how our team, you know, delivers and and treats our clients.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm curious if you have any thoughts there in terms of what the secret sauce is with building a team and for that's going to help the business thrive, but also I want to point out how much our team has navigated so much in this time, too.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've talked about our own personal experiences and the duality, but we've you know held our team through a lot of big shifts in business and their personal lives too, through you know, really hard moments of grief and really beautiful celebrations.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, what do you think about that?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: What is the key?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: What's the key to success with the team?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that there is a key to success with the team, uh, a single key.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think we realized, I don't know, five or six years ago, maybe less, but in my head it's five or six years ago, uh, that hiring for like our cultural fit, hiring for like the person first is really our key.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is finding someone who we know is a is a good person and can do good work and let's show them how to do it the Web Awards way.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that has been the key to our team.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think it's what continue allows it to continuously evolve too, because we can keep hiring these great people and show them how to do things our way, but they also bring in outside perspectives, their own perspectives, their own skills, and I think that's um a really big part of what we do.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think we're also very like team, our mentality is very team first.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like we don't get paid until our team gets paid.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: I always pay our team first before we we pay ourselves.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want our team to feel that they're you know the most important people, the most important part of Web of Words, because they are.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're what make they're they do the work, they get they get they're what makes the wheel spin, so let's feed in the beast, so to speak.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I really think that um, you know, changing the way we hired for that that cultural fit is really what made us um take that next go to the next level.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I feel like we because of that, we've also had this mentality where yes, we're hiring for a role, but we really let the role evolve around the person too, and then and then ultimately the business evolves in that way.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's important for us to have a clear vision for sure of where the business is going, but then see how it or organically unfolds.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a very good point that I I don't know that we talk about very often is you know, we'll say, okay, we need to hire uh a social media manager, you know, and then that evolves to oh, the social media manager who can also do video.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, God, love Maria.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, you know, it evolves to, oh, now we can, you know, we can do a podcast.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it evolves.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: It it you hire for one thing and you realize they've got an amazing skill set.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's build upon that.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that's happened with you know people across our team is we we you hire them for one thing, and then oh, but you can also do all these other things.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's watch you grow and let's do that.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um being able to support them as they do that and and let's see where that takes us is a is a great thing.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's to me that that brings me so much joy, fulfillment, is is being able to see the team that we've handpicked and brought in to then see grow.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's happened before too, where they've grown, and then unfortunately they they've gone on to other things.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I shouldn't say unfortunate because it but they've gone into other things and you know they've figured out oh, this is what I want to do, and they've gone and done that, and that that's great.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I love to love seeing them grow and grow in the world too, but because it allows us to then bring in new people and help us grow to another level as well.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: So totally.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's something you've always had that perspective of really seeing the opportunity when you know on the client side and the team side, knowing that things shift and evolve, and and and we've had really amazing retention on both sides.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we've had team members that have been with us for you know, uh probably coming up on eight years.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: And but at the same time, we've also had team members where it as hard as it might be to part ways, that opens up an opportunity for someone like Maria to come in and fill a gap that we didn't even realize was there at the time, and we're going through that again right now.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think the way we look at it too, and the way I look at it, is everything is an opportunity, everything's an opportunity to up level.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, someone sits the bar, Joe sets the bar here, and then oh, we have to go hire a new Joe.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we expect them to start at this bar and let's see where they grow now, and then the bars reset again, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's everything's an opportunity, whether it's in life or business, and specifically team team-wise, it it's not always fun to say bye to someone, or not always fun to, you know, oh, we gotta go do this this hiring process and interview all these people, but at the end of the day, it's an amazing opportunity to up level for us for ourselves and our clients, and that's what else.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that team member, and knowing that wherever they're moving on to is where they're being called to as well.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I really want to talk a little bit about just being in the service industry right now because this is something we've been talking about a lot behind the scenes too, and you know, I think we're at a time when things have shifted a lot.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like when we were first starting the business, there was just a different mentality around how service providers were maybe like treated or engaged with, or just how the relationship evolved.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we have such amazing clients that we love working with, but I know even just from talking to others in the space, and um I think we're very mindful when we are working with others, when we're outsourcing and working with service providers, whether through the business or even personal, just how we really take on our own role in that relationship to have a powerful collaboration.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one thing you mentioned this with the team, but like as small as like paying your invoices on time, like that can go such a long way.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I I just would love to share your perspective on just kind of where the service industry is going and how can people be that much more intentional on you know, both the service provider and the client side and how to make the most out of that relationship.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's tough.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think how many people do you talk to in a day, and that they're for one of the first things they say is, Oh, I'm so tired.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think everyone, the the way the world is, news, well, you kind of touched like news, the economy, everything.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: People are just tired.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think so.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: When you hire someone to perform a service for you, and maybe uh I don't know, and maybe something doesn't come go the exact way you wanted, or you were expecting maybe something slightly different, or uh you're just tired and you you don't know how to give feedback maybe in the the way that we'd want to receive it, it comes across, it can come across as prickly or um you know not thankful, unthankful.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think it's it's we I wear that hat when I when I do see or experience maybe the you know when you've like, oh they don't seem very grateful or but you gotta remember, I always try and remember that there's two sides to the story, and oh, they might they they may be having a bad day, right?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: We all have bad days, maybe they're having a bad day, but um I think you're right.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like when when we deal with service providers, whether that's personally or professionally, I think we have this experience.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Not everyone has this experience of working for themselves and knowing what that feels like.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we have a unique uh perspective on that, and not everyone's going to have that, and not everyone is capable of having that because they just don't get it.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think um uniquely people who work in the service industry or who are entrepreneurs or who you know work for themselves do have that extra uh lens of being able to look through the service provider lens.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I I'm not sure that there's any way to like really get around that, but I just think it's kind of um understanding that it's it's not personal, it's not even that they're upset with your business or you personally, it's just who knows what's going on in their lives, and who but we know what's going on kind of in our collective lives that isn't great.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it can just compound, and I I I get it.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not a fun part of what we do, it's just part of being in the service industry, and I and I'm not so sure that there's um like an answer on on that.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like a perfect answer.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always like, okay, we all just need a little more self-awareness, but I also look at it through that lens.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Whenever that happens, I'm always like, okay, what is my role in this?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel like, and sometimes that's to a fault, I guess, where I I become over-responsible and I do take it more personally than I'd like to, and it weighs on me more than I would like for it to.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that you know, in our growth, that's really important for me to be able to not hold on to that and to be able to move on.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's also a superpower in another way too, because I do care so deeply.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: You care super deeply, and I think that's part that's not it's not a problem.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's it's sometimes when you come to me and you're like, oh my god, we have to fix this, and I'm like, that's not an US problem.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's we've done, we've gone above and beyond.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: We we said it when we did everything that we we said we were gonna do, um and you can't take everything personally.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also, and you'll be you're you're the perfect person for me to say this to you can read emails.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Our our world is so digital, it's very rare rare we get a phone call, or it's very rare it's it's you know face-to-face communication.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost always uh digitally through email.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's sometimes you get an email and you tone is such a strange thing in emails, right?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know what the tone is.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: You can assume the tone in your head, and you're the perfect person because how many times have I written an email and I've been like, hey, what do you think of this?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, you sound so angry at this.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Or no, you can't send that.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what do you mean?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like I meant this nicely, and like it's just it's all about perspective and how you read things too.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's just so many things and tone that tone gets lost in email, and it's uh it's just part of the world that we we live in.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: I love voice notes.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not so much a phone caller.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I will pick up the phone when it's needed, but I feel like voice notes help with that.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh it makes me laugh with the emails because if sometimes your emails feel like the resting bitch face version of emails.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I think it's important to understand that I like clear, concise, like short emails.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like to go on and on and on.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like here's the I'm not upset, I'm not angry, I'm just here are the facts.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the facts, and you know, do with that as you want.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the facts, and let's move forward with that.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then you come in and you just kind of soften it.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think also you like as you were saying, not everyone has the other side of like working in service industry, let alone like having their own business and knowing everything that comes with that.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: But also you we both worked in the service industry before we built Web of Words, which I think those skills served us really well.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I served tables, I bartended.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you worked in, I guess, I guess not retail consider.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is it retail?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess okay.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: You worked in retail tech, like geek squad days, again, your fixer side being able to fix all of it.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that and that has served us well too.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think, you know, in like you said, in in like retail and uh like the food and beverage industry, like you see the best of the best people and you see the worst of the worst.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's you see people who love you and think you're great, and people who are having a terrible day and take it out on you.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like you you see them both.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's what at least for me keeps me more like even keeled, is I know that you know, with with the worst day, there's gonna be the best day.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: So just keep riding down the middle.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, as we kind of wrap things up, I'm I would love to ask you, you know, after everything that we built together, what would you say you are most proud of?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think I am most proud of the woman who sat on the couch at our first first house, second house together, and asked me if I thought, I don't know if it was like 300 bucks was too much to spend on a course to help you.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what the course was.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was like to I don't know if it was a sales course or if it was a it was like a freelance writing business.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: A freelance writing business course.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so proud of where she is now because that's you, for I mean, obviously, but you've now got a pretty awesome agency, you've got a podcast, you've written a book, you've got two kids, you've got I mean our dream house now that we burned it down, and here we are.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um We didn't burn it down.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, true.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think looking at that and saying from that from my wife who asked me, Oh, do you think we should spend or I should spend this money to to better myself to now, um, you don't ask anymore, you just do it.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I'm proud of.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like asking anymore.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, never did.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm proud of.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm proud of our family.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm proud of I'm proud of us, but when it comes down to it, um I'm most proud of I think you and how far you've come and what you do and what you do show up and do for everyone every day.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you that's really sweet, and this is why everyone needs a look at as a believer because yeah, it was your belief in me reflecting that back to me at that time that gave me the confidence to go for it.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, but I think it was always there inside like confidence is something that you've always had.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's natural when you're starting something new and maybe you're you know nervous about it or not sure what what the future holds, you're always gonna have that, oh, should I invest this in it or should I do this?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: But um just keep going.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing it.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and now our investments look a lot different than the$300.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, but I I do want to just point that out because I think there are partnerships where you know someone might have a big crazy wild idea, but their their partner, and not even to speak down, I'm not saying it in a negative way, just they have their own maybe baggage or fears about it that are that they project, and and so then they miss out on saying yes to the what if we do this together, even though we have no proof that this is going to work.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do think that it comes back to that partnership and knowing that we can do it together, and you know, because of how your role and how we were able to build the business together, that that really did give me this confidence and ability to step into my leadership because I knew that you were taking care of all these other pieces that were not my zone of genius.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I think we that's how we built our team too, right?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like continu like at a certain point we said, okay, there's pieces that I it's not in my zone of genius that are not in your zone of games.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go find someone else who can do that and can up level us.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we continuously do that, and that's how we've we've grown our agency, and I think it's it's what's made it a really solid foundation to to keep building off little pieces here and there, and and who knows what the future holds for for Web Awards.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but I'm sure you'll make me sit here and talk about it in 10 years.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's that's the next time I'll appear, by the way.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, final question, because of course it's the favorite self podcast, and I have to ask, because I haven't even asked you this, I don't think, which is kind of wild.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: But who is your favorite self in this season of Life and Business?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know how to answer that.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think the my favorite self is just someone who's there for you, for the kids, for the team, the agency, for our clients, just being there.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think just being present and being there is what the world needs right now, and what people in our lives need is just someone there.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Someone who's there to either just listen, to support them, to help them, to guide them, whatever it is, just being there.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's been um a crazy few months, a few years even, and it's just it's yeah, I think just being present and um and be and being there for people and telling them that you're there for them so that they know.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're not just oh yeah, yeah, maybe they're there.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're there.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um that is my my favorite self.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's just being able to be there for people.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the life that we've built has allowed that.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yay, it's d it's over.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: We did it.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you everyone so much for listening.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let us know how much you loved having Luke on the podcast so he can come back again.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or just, you know, never have him again.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's an option too.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: And be sure to tune in again next week.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks everyone.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Favorite Self podcast.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: If this episode stirred something in you, there's a reason for it.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: You could take a moment to share with a friend, someone who's also building something brave, that would mean so much to me.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Better yet, leave a review.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: It helps this message reach even more women who are ready to lead differently.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: And before you go, remember this your favorite self is already within you, waiting to be heard.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time.