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33. Battling an Eating Disorder in Midlife with Betsy Brenner · All Bodies. All Foods.

0:01
Hey,
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I'm Sam.
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Hi,
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I'm Ashley.
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And you're listening to All Bodies All Foods presented by the Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.
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We want to create a space for all bodies to come together authentically and purposefully to discuss various areas that impact us on a cultural and relational level.
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We believe that all bodies and all foods are welcome.
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We would love for you to join us on this journey.
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Let's learn together.
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Hello and welcome back to another episode of All Bodies,
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All Foods.
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I'm Sam,
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one of your hosts today and I'm here with Ashley and we are so thrilled to have Betsy Brenner as our guest today.
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Betsy is an author,
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a recovery speaker and a peer support mentor.
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In her 2020 memoir,
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The Longest Match Rallying to defeat an eating disorder in midlife.
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Betsy details her life one filled with blessings and privilege,
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but also with emotional trauma and profound grief,
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anxiety,
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depression,
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and ultimately a diagnosis of anorexia in midlife.
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Her eating disorder became the catalyst for healing her inspiring message is that it is never too late to be a work in progress.
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Betsy's recovery journey shows us that it is possible to heal from past trauma and become healthier in mind,
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body and spirit.
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A former hospital attorney and longtime high school tennis coach,
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Betsy was also a hospice volunteer and speaker on grief loss and end of life decision making.
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She has led a bereavement group in her town for the past decade.
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Her primary focus is now on speaking,
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mentoring and leading support groups in the eating disorder field.
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Betsy has had the opportunity to share her story at treatment centers,
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conferences and virtual through webinars and podcasts.
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She's passionate about giving hope to and supporting those who are struggling with eating disorders,
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especially women in midlife.
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She received her bachelor's degree in psychology from Brown University and her juris doctorate from American University Law School,
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originally from Rochester,
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New York.
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Betsy and her husband Jeff have resided in Barrington,
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Rhode Island for over 30 years and are the proud parents of three grown Children.
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Welcome to the show,
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Betsy.
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Thank you.
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I'm so happy to be here.
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Um So I read your book and loved it and I'm so thankful that you wrote this book because I truly believe it's a gift to so many people because we are not talking about eating disorders in midlife enough.
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And there are,
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I can't,
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there have been so many requests for an episode on eating disorders in midlife.
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So I'm so grateful to have you on and your book was so wonderful because it walked us through your entire journey.
2:56
From when you were a child all the way through diagnosis and recovery because you didn't actually receive a formal diagnosis for anorexia until I think it was 2011.
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Right.
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And so how old were you?
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At that point?
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I was in my early,
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mid forties probably.
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Um,
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I think it had been sort of brewing for a while,
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but it was formally diagnosed in the fall of 2011.
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Right.
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And so you described in your book that although you didn't,
3:27
this eating disorder wasn't full blown,
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it didn't really come to the surface until later.
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You describe it as always simmering even in childhood.
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And could you tell us what was happening then that impacted your relationship with food and with your body?
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Sure.
3:45
Well,
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the reason,
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um it's actually my therapist who uses that metaphor of my eating disorder having been simmering until it came to a rapid boil when the perfect storm hit in my forties.
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But before the perfect storm fit,
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the reason I think it was simmering is because I had a history of uh um being an athlete,
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I was an elite athlete played four years of division one college tennis.
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So there was always a very strong connection between food and exercise and that was just normal for me.
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I didn't know anything different.
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I started playing competitively when I was about 12 and played through four years of college.
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So there was always that connection.
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But also looking back to my childhood in preparation for writing my memoir,
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there are a lot of things,
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um just in my childhood that aren't surprising that they,
4:37
um,
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led to this simmering,
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disordered eating slash became a full blown eating disorder.
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I never learned to eat intuitively.
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My mom had severe O CD controlled what we ate when we ate,
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how much we ate.
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Could never even go into the kitchen and help ourselves to a snack.
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I'd come home from college,
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she would even put the cereal in the bowl and put the milk on it.
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Um So I just never learned to tune into hunger cues or fullness cues.
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Um And then just a lot of things she modeled um for me,
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you know,
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bragging about how little she weighed on her wedding day and things like that,
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that when you're growing up,
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you don't know anything different.
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So I didn't really realize these things were an issue and um and you couple that with a,
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a lifetime,
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literally decades of internalizing any and all emotions and feeling like I had to be the perfect good girl.
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So that's all sort of the backdrop for how the eating disorder finally came to be that pot of water boiling on the stove.
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Um In my forties,
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it was a combination of being diagnosed with moderate to severe asthma,
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which also led to the diagnosis of anxiety and depression.
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For the very first time in my life,
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I had never had had a physical chronic illness to manage.
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I felt so out of control.
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I was a mother of three,
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loved being a high school tennis coach.
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Busy mother of three.
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And all of a sudden,
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I would have these severe episodes of shortness of breath.
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I could barely get up off the couch.
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So I felt it like a failure as a mother.
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Um,
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and the anxiety around managing an illness,
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I knew nothing about taking medication every day when I had barely ever taken an Advil for a headache.
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And I think um the other piece of the,
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this perfect storm is I had recently just gotten back into tennis at this time.
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So,
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um after college,
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you know,
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I didn't really play seriously until when my oldest was getting ready to try out the high school team.
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I uh got back on the court to help her prepare.
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One thing led to another.
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I started playing again,
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met other people who played in college,
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started playing competitively again.
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I became very fit and muscular.
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I lost weight.
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I didn't need to lose.
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I didn't think there was anything wrong with me.
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I,
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I loved being a busy mom.
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I love coaching tennis.
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And then playing again,
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tennis was always a source of self esteem.
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And once again,
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it,
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it became that way as I became known for my own tennis and my coaching career and,
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and all that.
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But what would happen is um I get all these positive comments Oh,
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you're a great tennis player.
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You're so fit,
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you're so mu,
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and because of that,
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and then that combined with asthma,
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keeping me off the tennis court,
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I developed this very intense fear of gaining weight and without even knowing it,
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I had lost,
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um,
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too much weight off my very small frame and it was actually a physician of mine that noticed the weight loss and,
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and contacted my primary care physician who,
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um hook me up with a dietitian who specializes in eating disorders.
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But of course,
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I had that phone number for months before I actually made the call.
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I didn't know anything was wrong with me.
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And at that very first appointment,
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I was diagnosed with anorexia.
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I'll always be grateful that I was taken off a very dangerous path before it became medically dangerous.
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But eating disorder,
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I think because it had been brewing for so long,
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was so strong and just came to that rapid boil at that stage in my life as a way to feel in control where the asthma made me feel so out of control and also reduce that intense fear of gaining weight that just co was compounded by the fact that my asthma would keep me off the tennis court for days on end.
8:32
So any one of those factors alone may not have contributed to the diagnosis.
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But I think at that time that perfect storm um really is what led to the ultimate diagnosis,
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but I think it had been going on for a while.
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I still had no idea.
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And even when the diagnosis came,
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I had the same preconceived notions that so many people have.
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How could I have an eating disorder?
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How could I have a breakfast?
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I'm in my forties.
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What are you talking about?
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You know,
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I eat,
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you know,
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whatever.
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I had no idea that I,
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um,
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was sick enough to have a clinical diagnosis.
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Well,
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that's why this episode I think is so important because those stereotypes really get in the way of people getting a timely diagnosis and actually going to treatment because they tell themselves the story that I,
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I can't possibly have an eating disorder and I can't possibly go into treatment because I'm just going to be with a bunch of teenagers.
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I think that's another,
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you know,
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thing that comes up like who's gonna treat me?
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I'm too,
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I'm too old.
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That's a very important issue.
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And I literally hear from readers around the world,
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I get emails almost every week and it,
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it is that typical email.
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I've been struggling for so long.
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I'm so ashamed.
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I left treatment prematurely.
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Everybody was the same age as my kids.
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You know,
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I hear that over and over and over again.
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So you're absolutely correct in that older women and men too,
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I'm sure are not getting the treatment that they need at the time that they need it.
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So thinking back,
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Betsy,
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when you were a child that simmering eating disorder.
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What did that look like?
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Do you remember eating disorder symptoms?
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Sort of popping up body image?
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I know you had some journal entries you put in your book and I noticed there were some comments about,
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you know,
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it seemed like you were thinking about how you looked quite a bit.
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Definitely.
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And it wasn't until I was reading all those childhood diaries and diaries from young adulthood that I realized there were so many periods of my life,
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either in my diaries,
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I was writing everything I ate that day.
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I would comment how certain clothes made me feel.
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There's direct evidence of that connection between food and exercise.
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Um The comments like that about certain foods and having to exercise in order to eat them.
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Um And the self awareness I gained from reading through all those diaries and journals for,
11:02
in preparation for writing my memoir,
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gave me this lens directly to my past.
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I had no idea until I was preparing to write my memoir.
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How,
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how much there were those signs throughout my childhood and young adulthood,
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it just seemed normal.
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Um And I didn't know anything different.
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And again,
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you know,
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I think that athletic mindset that I always had um connecting food and exercise,
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it just part of being an athlete,
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it didn't seem like there was anything wrong,
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but the evidence is right there in,
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in my own,
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in my own words.
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Hm.
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So you actually had no memory of it.
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It wasn't until you read through your diaries that you realized you did have all these thoughts about body image and food.
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Absolutely.
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The,
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the,
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my very first memory,
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my independent rele uh recollection of engaging in what you would call an eating disorder behavior was my freshman year in college.
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Um I remember,
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um,
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even though I was playing several hours of tennis,
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you know,
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I was great at the beginning of college,
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all this freedom around food that I never had because my mom was so constrictive with it.
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And once that novelty wore off and I was going through some homesickness and some issues with my parents by November of my freshman year.
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That's my first memory of intentionally engaging in an eating disorder behavior restriction.
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Um,
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but fortunately I went home for Thanksgiving three weeks later and that was my last memory of actually,
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uh engaging in a behavior.
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It didn't take hold at that time,
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but it's a,
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it's a perfect example of how I was using a behavior with food to man.
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And it's very difficult emotions because I,
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I never was taught how to feel or how to express emotions,
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especially negative ones.
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Did you go on a diet or?
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What was the,
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what I just remember in November of my freshman year of college.
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I,
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I'm old.
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We're talking about the early eighties.
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Um,
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I remember clearly for those weeks seeing how little I could eat,
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I didn't skip meals.
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I was eating breakfast,
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lunch and dinner,
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but seeing how little I could eat each meal despite playing several hours of tennis.
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But I don't remember that at all after I went back to school after Thanksgiving and the holidays.
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I see.
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Yeah.
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Kind of that.
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Experimenting.
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Figuring out how can I,
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like you said earlier,
13:39
manage my emotions better and it might have been something.
13:43
Yeah.
13:43
No,
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I remember specifically at that time,
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get homesick and my parents were fighting about money,
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which is what they always did.
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And I somehow was always put in the middle.
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I'm sure they were fighting about paying my tuition and um I didn't know how to cope with any kind of feelings at that point in my life.
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Um So that must have been a way I figured out to numb.
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All right,
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which is truly how,
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you know,
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in working with.
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Um so many of the people that we work with,
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I think often I,
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I'm thinking about how you said you were kind of surprised that you received the diagnosis of anorexia.
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Um And,
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and I would say so many of our clients feel the same way,
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like what,
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what this is,
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this is what I'm experiencing.
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And I'm curious.
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So over these years leading up to your forties prior to the uh diagnosis,
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when,
14:37
when you say things were kind of simmering,
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I'm wondering if other people maybe have kind of had that experience too if maybe some women,
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um,
14:47
some older women that might be listening to the show have had that experience too.
14:52
And yet are there protective factors or items that have kind of kept the eating disorder at bay if you will?
15:02
Um,
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and were there those factors for you,
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were there things that helped you kind of,
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um,
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not go into that rapid boil but just kind of stay in that simmering stage?
15:13
I,
15:13
that's a great question.
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I think I was just living my life.
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I mean,
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I went to law school,
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I got married,
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I had three kids,
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um a house in the suburbs,
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all my dreams had come true.
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So how could anything possibly be wrong?
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And um I,
15:31
I definitely was focused a lot on what I ate,
15:34
how much I ate,
15:35
how much I exercised.
15:37
But I think because of the athlete in me,
15:39
even though I wasn't,
15:41
you know,
15:42
a,
15:42
a top athlete at that time,
15:44
it was just so ingrained in me that connection between food and exercise and it didn't become an issue clinically,
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you know,
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until the perfect storm as we talked about.
15:56
But even during those years when I was just sort of living living this life,
16:01
I mean,
16:02
I suffered from anxiety.
16:03
I didn't know I had,
16:04
I suffered from mild depression.
16:06
I didn't know I had,
16:08
I never process absolutely profound grief from my parents early deaths and those very complicated relationships.
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So I think I was just very high,
16:19
strong,
16:20
always focused on being the best mom or being the best this that or the other thing,
16:25
there was no place for vulnerability,
16:29
weakness,
16:30
even thinking along the lines that something could be wrong with me.
16:34
Yeah.
16:34
Just hearing you say that,
16:36
I wonder how many people can relate to everything that you're saying right now.
16:40
Um I think sometimes we,
16:42
we just,
16:43
we have to keep moving right.
16:44
You have to keep doing and you have to keep living that life.
16:47
And until maybe,
16:49
you know,
16:49
you reach your boiling point and then you can look back and make all those connections.
16:54
And thankfully,
16:55
you even had some journals that you can look back and see that stuff and help you make those connections.
17:00
But I also think that at that stretch when it was simmering,
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I didn't know self care was a thing.
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I was that on the go mom meeting all my children's needs,
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taking care of them and I took care of my parents when they were sick.
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I didn't know that I had needs of my own.
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I didn't know that self care was a thing.
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Um So it was just go,
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go,
17:21
go for everybody else.
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Um So I had a lot to learn in recovery.
17:26
Yeah.
17:26
Hm.
17:27
Uh You know,
17:28
um I'm so grateful that,
17:31
you know,
17:32
you wrote about tennis in your book.
17:35
I mean,
17:35
I know it was such a big part of your life.
17:37
I think we,
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we also don't talk enough in this field about athletes and eating disorders and how easily eating disorder symptoms can get lost,
17:47
um,
17:47
in the sort of athletic world.
17:50
And it seems,
17:51
you know,
17:52
as I was reading your book,
17:53
it seemed to me like tennis played a lot of different roles in your life.
17:59
At one point,
18:00
it seemed like it was a protective factor.
18:02
You know,
18:03
it gave you so much confidence and you met so many people and you were,
18:09
um,
18:09
you really enjoyed it and it helped you with your stress and then it sort of became part of the eating disorder at certain times.
18:17
How did you see your relationship with tennis evolve and what's your relationship with tennis?
18:23
Now,
18:24
those are all great questions.
18:26
Um,
18:26
growing up,
18:27
um I got into tennis seriously.
18:29
By the time I was about 12,
18:30
my parents both love tennis,
18:32
although they weren't very good.
18:34
It's the best thing that could have happened to me because for so many years,
18:39
it was my primary source of self esteem and as I got better and got more positive attention,
18:46
it just gave me confidence.
18:47
I felt good about myself.
18:49
I was better than your average person at something.
18:52
And I was always very shy,
18:53
introverted,
18:54
very small for my age.
18:56
So when I started beca becoming known for my tennis,
18:59
it was also positive.
19:01
Um I also learned that doing well in tennis,
19:04
made my mom happy and growing up,
19:06
I often felt that I had to earn her,
19:09
her love.
19:10
It wasn't unconditional.
19:11
Um So that was a big piece of it.
19:13
I knew it made her happy when I did well.
19:15
And then there were those gifts like being able to travel around the country and meet people and experience some level of independence which I never had at home.
19:24
It also was an outlet for all that anxiety and mild depression that I didn't know I had anxiety and mild depression.
19:33
Go back to my parents acrimonious divorce when I was seven years old.
19:37
So hitting a tennis ball from the age of 12 through,
19:41
you know,
19:41
21 that was the only outlet I knew of for these emotional issues.
19:47
I didn't know I had these mental health issues.
19:50
I didn't even know I had.
19:51
So if I hadn't been able to hit a tennis ball well or frequently,
19:56
I'm not sure how I would have coped because I didn't even know what I was coping with.
20:02
And I think,
20:03
um then later on,
20:05
as I described,
20:07
tennis became a wonderful part of my life.
20:09
Again,
20:10
um,
20:10
you know,
20:11
and again,
20:11
positive attention for being a coach and a good player and made all these new friends and loved my tennis world.
20:18
You know,
20:18
especially when my kids were in school,
20:20
it became a huge part of my life,
20:23
but I think it was losing that weight.
20:25
I didn't need to lose off my very small frame and,
20:31
um,
20:31
and getting all these positive comments,
20:33
oh,
20:33
you're so fit,
20:33
you're so muscular.
20:35
Again,
20:36
it fueled my self esteem.
20:37
I,
20:37
you know,
20:38
and I,
20:39
I didn't engage intentionally in any eating disorder behaviors during this time,
20:45
but I was playing a lot of tennis and,
20:48
um,
20:48
clearly not fueling it appropriately at that time.
20:52
Um,
20:53
so if you do that long enough something's going to happen,
20:56
but it took a physician noticing it.
20:57
And again,
20:58
I was in shock even with the diagnosis at my,
21:01
in my dietitian's office,
21:03
um,
21:03
never occurred to me that something would be wrong could be wrong.
21:07
So tennis has been a wonderful part of my life.
21:10
You know,
21:11
when I stopped playing college,
21:12
I didn't think I'd ever really play again.
21:13
Seriously.
21:14
I,
21:15
you know,
21:15
moved on and that's always hard as an athlete to when your identity is so connected to a sport.
21:21
And then all of a sudden you have to find new ways,
21:24
but to answer your question about tennis in my life.
21:27
Now,
21:28
whereas before when I was really struggling,
21:31
everything revolved around tennis and I needed,
21:35
I needed tennis to um reduce my anxiety,
21:38
reduce stress.
21:40
I needed it to give me permission to nourish my body.
21:44
And that's the eating disorder.
21:45
Obviously.
21:47
Now,
21:47
tennis has such a healthy part of my life.
21:51
Um,
21:52
because I travel a lot and do speaking which I absolutely love.
21:56
Um I'm not even thinking of tennis when I'm doing that and when I'm home,
22:00
um,
22:01
I might play twice a week now,
22:03
sometimes three times a week,
22:04
but it's always fit in around the other things.
22:07
Whereas,
22:09
you know,
22:09
so I'll get asked to play tennis.
22:11
I'll be like,
22:11
no,
22:11
I can't.
22:12
I'm,
22:13
you know,
22:13
running a group or on a podcast or whatever.
22:15
Whereas before,
22:17
if I was asked to play tennis,
22:18
nothing else mattered.
22:19
It's like,
22:19
oh,
22:19
good.
22:20
I'm gonna get that,
22:21
you know,
22:21
hour and a half of vigorous exercise and it will reduce the anxiety around food.
22:26
And,
22:27
um,
22:27
so tennis has a very healthy balance in my life.
22:30
I still really enjoy it when I play,
22:33
I retired from coaching and it's just something I enjoy,
22:36
you know,
22:37
I still at a higher level.
22:38
But,
22:39
um,
22:39
it,
22:40
it,
22:40
I feel it properly.
22:42
Um,
22:43
it just,
22:44
um,
22:45
it's a wonderful part of my life when it fits in and when it does fit in,
22:49
I always feel it properly.
22:51
So,
22:52
come a long way.
22:54
Let's see,
22:54
what is that like?
22:55
To see the juxtaposition of those two relationships with tennis.
22:59
Like now you can engage and you can smile when you're engaging and you can do it when it fits in when you want to,
23:07
versus this.
23:08
Like I have to do this,
23:10
I have to get it done.
23:10
I have to engage,
23:12
you know,
23:12
what does that feel like?
23:14
I think what was hard about tennis too?
23:16
I mean,
23:16
yes,
23:16
it was compulsive exercise.
23:18
But so many people with compulsive exercise,
23:20
they don't enjoy what they're doing,
23:21
they're doing it because the eating disorder is telling them to,
23:24
I always enjoy tennis.
23:25
So that's why I probably seem like compensatory for lack of a better word.
23:33
But I,
23:34
I look back and I realize even as an adult how much tennis really encroached upon my well being here,
23:44
I was doing something I enjoyed with people that I liked,
23:47
but it was so connected to my eating disorder.
23:52
So now I just feel gratitude that I can still play.
23:58
Um I know people that used to play a lot and can't for whatever physical reasons.
24:02
So,
24:03
um the other thing is for so long,
24:05
my tennis was connected to my happiness.
24:08
It sounds so crazy.
24:10
But like if I won,
24:12
I was happy,
24:12
if I didn't win,
24:13
I wasn't.
24:14
And now how I'm feeling has absolutely nothing to do with how I did on the tennis court.
24:18
So big changes,
24:20
it seems like it's got to be free,
24:23
very free all for the best.
24:25
And,
24:25
and I,
24:25
and I have to say it doesn't sound crazy at all,
24:28
especially when you described how it seems like your mother's love and affection was directly linked to whether or not you won a game or won a match.
24:38
And,
24:38
and also I know your sister played too and you noticed those same patterns playing out between your mother and your sister.
24:47
Yes,
24:47
definitely.
24:48
I I think my mother lived through our tennis success.
24:51
She liked being known as our mothers.
24:53
And,
24:54
oh,
24:54
that's great that,
24:55
you know,
24:55
Betsy won that tournament,
24:56
you know,
24:57
put a big smile on my mom's face if someone said that to her.
25:00
So I think on many levels she was living through our tennis success.
25:04
Um,
25:05
but the,
25:05
the more important piece of that is,
25:08
um,
25:09
I did feel I had had to earn her love.
25:12
Um There's no question that she loved us.
25:14
We definitely came from a loving home,
25:18
but because of her own issues,
25:19
she was very rigid,
25:21
very moody.
25:22
I felt like I was walking on eggshells that time.
25:24
I didn't know which version of her I would see.
25:30
Um So that led to my just sort of having to feel like I had to be this perfect good girl.
25:34
I had to get top grades.
25:35
I had to do well in tennis and then everything would be ok.
25:38
Anything less than that?
25:40
I felt like I was disappointing her.
25:43
Mhm So I have a question about um the grief work that,
25:49
that you mentioned in your book.
25:51
Um And you mentioned that your first experience with a therapist even talking about grief wasn't until you were 33.
25:57
Um And I have a quote from you saying grief required that I lean into all the feelings which went against everything that was deeply ingrained in me from a young age.
26:07
And I'm just curious what that process was like for you.
26:11
Um,
26:12
and how has it served you?
26:14
Yeah.
26:14
As the year was very important points.
26:16
I have to,
26:17
um,
26:18
explain that,
26:20
um,
26:20
it was modeled for me from the age of seven when my parents were divorced.
26:25
When that something traumatic happens,
26:26
whether it's a divorce or death or whatever my mom modeled for us that we just go on as if nothing happened.
26:33
Never in my entire childhood.
26:35
Was it ever acknowledged that it's ok to feel sad.
26:38
It's ok to feel angry.
26:40
It's ok to talk about feelings.
26:42
It was always,
26:43
you know,
26:43
let's power through,
26:44
let's be strong.
26:45
There was no vulnerability of any kind.
26:48
I grew up thinking that being strong and always being positive and I really would feel guilty for even thinking a negative thought.
26:57
I can't even tell you how many times in my childhood diaries,
27:00
if I wrote even the slightest thing negative I would follow it up with.
27:05
But I love my life like I was scared to even leave a negative thought in a diary.
27:11
But it happened.
27:11
I had very complicated relationships with my parents and um and had two good years with each of them at the end of their lives.
27:20
My father died of colon cancer at the age of 56.
27:23
I was 23 and we had had two good years finally um after a very complicated relationship.
27:31
So after he died,
27:32
um I remember a dear friend saying,
27:36
you know,
27:36
maybe it would be helpful to talk to somebody and my mom was alive at that point and said,
27:40
why would you need to do that?
27:42
Um,
27:43
so I never,
27:44
I still didn't have the permission that you've been through a traumatic loss.
27:47
It's ok to feel sad and,
27:50
and cry and be upset and angry,
27:52
whatever.
27:53
Um,
27:54
but instead the way I was raised,
27:56
I thought it was supposed to just focus on the two good years.
27:59
Yeah.
27:59
It's a shame that he died,
28:00
you know,
28:01
in the middle of his life.
28:02
But at least we had two good years.
28:04
So I thought that's what I was supposed to focus on.
28:07
So by the time my mom died of breast cancer at the age of 6010 years later,
28:12
I never really grieved the loss of my father.
28:15
I internalized all that sadness and,
28:19
um,
28:20
it was really hard.
28:21
I didn't know it was ok to feel feelings or talk about different emotions.
28:26
So,
28:27
the same thing sort of with my mom.
28:28
The parallel was we had a very complicated relationship and then the last two years of her life,
28:35
I gave her her first grandchild and she softened and end up moving to where we live and we had two really good years together.
28:43
And then her cancer that had been diagnosed 14 years earlier,
28:47
came back in every bone in her body.
28:49
Um,
28:49
and then she was gone once again,
28:53
I thought I was supposed to focus on the two good years I had with her.
28:57
So when you combine all that grief from the loss of my dad and then 10 years later,
29:03
all the grief from the loss of my mom.
29:06
And after her death,
29:07
you know,
29:07
I'm a mother of a three year old.
29:09
Like if my husband's working a ton of hours,
29:11
I'm working part time as a hospital attorney at that point.
29:13
But working less and less and I didn't know that it was ok to be sad to grieve.
29:21
So it was actually a hospice chaplain that encouraged me to go see therapists.
29:26
At age 33.
29:27
After my mom died,
29:29
I went kicking and screaming.
29:30
I was like,
29:31
I'm fine,
29:32
I'm fine and she actually went with me to the first appointment.
29:35
That's how important she felt.
29:37
It was that I,
29:38
and it was a wonderful,
29:40
wonderful woman.
29:41
Um,
29:41
she's long since retired and moved away and she probably would have been very effective in helping me to start talking about difficult experiences and feelings.
29:52
But I probably started the process with a brick wall in front of me.
29:55
Like I'm fine,
29:56
I can't be vulnerable.
29:57
I can't talk about tough stuff and,
30:00
you know,
30:00
slowly but surely I did feel like I had a safe space to start talking about some of the experiences in my life.
30:06
But then she moved away and,
30:09
um,
30:09
and I didn't see a therapist again until I was in my forties,
30:12
struggling with the asthma diagnosis and,
30:15
and the anxiety was then finally diagnosed this anxiety that was always connected to health and safety that literally goes back to my young childhood.
30:24
And those,
30:25
those um examples I found in my diaries,
30:28
you know,
30:28
it was like putting together a jigsaw puzzle of my life and seeing how all the pieces fit together.
30:33
But it was me,
30:34
I was reading about and learning so much.
30:36
But that lens into the past just gave me this direct view,
30:40
unequivocal.
30:41
That was me.
30:42
These are all the things I experience.
30:44
And um and that's why I think the diagnosis of anorexia and midlife was just the combination of all these complicated factors.
30:54
Um I'll always be thankful that it became the catalyst for my healing and recovery and it's truly never too late.
31:01
If I can do it,
31:02
anybody can do it.
31:04
Yeah,
31:05
I'm just sitting here thinking again what a gift that you have those journals from your past.
31:12
Um I can,
31:13
I'm like,
31:14
do I even have anything right now?
31:16
You know that I could look back on?
31:18
Um It was really funny about them is I had them in a box and every once in a while I would take one out,
31:23
but I would start crying when I looked at him.
31:25
And so I would just shove it back in the box and not allow myself to really feel.
31:28
And my husband would always say like you need to burn those,
31:31
get rid of those.
31:32
But I'm very thankful that I didn't,
31:33
because I couldn't have written my memoir without them.
31:37
I mean,
31:37
I could have,
31:37
but it would have been a very different story.
31:40
Yeah.
31:41
It makes me curious.
31:42
Kind of still on the,
31:43
the grief topic.
31:46
How are you able to approach sadness now,
31:49
or are you able?
31:51
Um,
31:52
and what has that journey been like for you?
31:55
I,
31:55
I guess I didn't answer the last part of your question,
31:58
but that's really important.
32:00
Um I think in recovery from my eating disorder,
32:05
um learning how important it was to allow invulnerability and to feel all the feelings and also learning.
32:12
Um you know,
32:12
with anxiety,
32:13
I want to see the world in black and white.
32:14
You're either happy or you're sad.
32:16
I think in recovery is really important to learn that life is more in the gray.
32:20
I can feel happy in my daily life,
32:23
but also feel really sad about the profound loss in my life.
32:27
The first way I really started to deal with my own grief was becoming a hospice volunteer and tagging along with the hospice chaplain to do bereavement groups and all that.
32:37
But I was always very quiet,
32:39
very shy.
32:40
Um I didn't like group settings.
32:42
It's ironic now that I love facilitating groups doing it for many years now.
32:48
Um But at the time,
32:49
I was just very unsure of myself.
32:51
I hadn't yet found my voice.
32:53
Um So I,
32:54
I still internalized a lot of the sadness.
32:57
Um And I think in doing the bereavement group that started in 2012,
33:02
I was obviously in the throes of my eating disorder when that group started,
33:06
I think it was empowering for me to,
33:09
to help others.
33:11
But I think the help I was giving others what I was,
33:13
what I wished I'd had for myself.
33:17
So,
33:18
um but now,
33:20
you know,
33:20
this many years later and through my recovery journey,
33:23
I encourage those people to come.
33:25
Like you have to feel the feelings because otherwise,
33:29
and you need to find a safe space,
33:31
whether it's with a,
33:32
a clinician,
33:33
whether it's in a support group with a loved one,
33:35
a friend.
33:36
But if you internalize and let all those difficult emotions that come with grief,
33:42
just stay inside,
33:45
something is gonna happen.
33:47
And people that will find maladaptive ways of coping for me,
33:51
obviously,
33:51
it was the eating disorder trying to numb literally decades of difficult emotions that I didn't know it was ok to feel.
33:59
So,
34:00
um I just now I just reach out when I know someone is struggling with grief and just sort of validate that what they're going through is really hard and it's really normal and um that it's ok to feel all different types of emotions at the same time.
34:19
And um and no one can do it alone.
34:22
There's a lot of parallels to eating disorder recovery actually.
34:25
So um,
34:28
I,
34:28
I learned a lot from my own experience with my bereavement group that helped me along the journey to recovery from my eating disorder.
34:36
Yeah.
34:36
So I tell it,
34:37
you know,
34:37
it's ok to be sad,
34:38
basically.
34:39
Yeah.
34:39
That's what I,
34:40
I just think.
34:41
I think there are so many,
34:42
um,
34:43
interesting things that all of us have to learn about that,
34:46
that you can,
34:47
you can hold both this like extreme sadness about whatever the situation is and you can also hold joy.
34:57
You can also hold,
34:59
you know,
34:59
there might be some anger,
35:01
there,
35:01
there could be happiness,
35:02
there could be,
35:03
you know,
35:03
whatever.
35:04
Um,
35:05
but we can have multiple of those emotions at the same time and it's ok.
35:10
And as I'll just say this,
35:11
Betsy as,
35:12
um,
35:12
I'm a southerner.
35:13
I was born and bred in the south.
35:16
And so,
35:17
um,
35:17
we were taught to,
35:19
um,
35:19
leave our emotions at the door.
35:21
So the moment the front door opened,
35:23
everything stayed back there too.
35:25
And,
35:26
um,
35:26
so when you say,
35:28
like you felt guilty for even having a negative thought,
35:31
I can completely relate to that.
35:35
Um,
35:35
because we were supposed to prison ourselves with a smile on our face all the time,
35:39
you know,
35:40
and I,
35:40
and I can even see in my own,
35:42
you know,
35:43
life now just kind of how that like I can be a,
35:48
I am a bubbly person but how sometimes I'm like is am I putting this on or is this genuinely how I'm feeling right now?
35:57
You know.
35:57
Um And so to say,
35:59
like,
35:59
I think a lot of us are experiencing um some of the things that you just spoke about.
36:04
Well,
36:04
I literally literally went through decades,
36:07
feeling like there was this layer of sadness just beneath the surface and I couldn't put my finger on.
36:13
It was just always there.
36:14
But outwardly,
36:16
I was living this great life,
36:18
I still am.
36:19
I'm grateful every single day,
36:21
but I didn't even know how to get in touch with that sadness.
36:23
It was always there.
36:24
And honestly,
36:25
um even after I'd written my recovery story and was in a good place,
36:29
recovery wise,
36:30
that layer of sadness didn't actually go away until after I wrote my memoir.
36:35
That's how therapeutic that process was.
36:38
Yeah.
36:39
And that was,
36:40
you know,
36:40
good three years after I first shared my recovery story from my eating disorder.
36:45
So it really took delving into my past in a way I had never done before,
36:51
which is scary.
36:52
And I saw I was on your website earlier and I saw a,
36:54
a Brene Brown quote.
36:56
Um It's scary to be vulnerable and it's scary to dive in and yet let's approach it and do it together.
37:03
It's always worth it even if you think you can't even do it.
37:06
Like I said,
37:06
vulnerability for me,
37:08
it wasn't even in my vocabulary.
37:10
It was equated with weakness.
37:12
Um But if I hadn't allowed in vulnerability.
37:15
We wouldn't be having this conversation because I wouldn't be where I am today.
37:18
Yeah,
37:19
I think so many people can relate to that.
37:21
And it's one of the reasons why in our treatment model,
37:25
we have built in like a whole group about judging emotions and how harmful that can be.
37:32
You know,
37:32
when we feel guilty for feeling sad or angry about feeling grief or what whatever it may be.
37:38
And it really is a skill to be able to shift back to that primary emotion and check in with yourself and say,
37:45
ok,
37:46
I can go back to what I'm what I felt first and actually sit with it,
37:51
right?
37:51
And you hear too many older women say like,
37:53
yeah,
37:54
of course,
37:54
I want to recover,
37:55
but I can't touch that trauma or I can't touch those emotions.
37:58
I just wanna recover.
38:00
Instead of understanding if you want true lasting recovery,
38:03
you have to address the things from the past,
38:05
including the difficult emotions and it's not easy,
38:09
it's not easy,
38:10
but the only way out is through.
38:14
Oh,
38:15
sorry.
38:16
I was just gonna say I also the only way out is through.
38:19
I agree and love that so much.
38:22
I also think it is so helpful for people to hear stories of recovery and stories of experiences.
38:31
And I'm just,
38:31
I'm really thankful that you can be here with us Betsy to,
38:34
to kind of share what your experience was then.
38:37
And now and the whole journey through it because it wasn't easy.
38:41
But I just wanted to say that,
38:42
sorry Sam,
38:43
I'm taking.
38:43
No,
38:44
I agree.
38:45
And you know,
38:45
just talking about all this reminded me of a part in your book when you were starting to lean into these feelings and you wrote about thinking to yourself,
38:54
if I start crying,
38:55
I'm never going to stop.
38:57
And I think that's such a common narrative.
38:59
Like I think,
39:00
especially when we're talking about grief or trauma,
39:03
it's like this belief gets in the way that this feeling is gonna last forever.
39:08
And I was wondering,
39:10
you know,
39:11
does that thought sometimes still come up for you or how did you work through that?
39:14
Because that can be really hard?
39:17
Yes.
39:17
Um I definitely carry that thought with me for decades that if I ever started to cry for all these things,
39:24
I wouldn't be able to stop.
39:25
Obviously,
39:26
I learned through years of therapy in my recovery.
39:29
I,
39:29
I learned that those feelings weren't going to kill me,
39:31
but an eating disorder could if I didn't address those feelings.
39:36
And um one of the,
39:38
the lessons I learned,
39:39
I mean,
39:39
my therapist was amazing in helping me sort of unravel those layers and layers of suppressed emotions,
39:47
you know,
39:48
and of course,
39:49
for years,
39:50
I probably resisted,
39:51
you know,
39:51
letting that wall down and even tearing up and all that.
39:55
But I remember profoundly and I do talk about this a lot when I speak,
39:59
you know,
40:00
I'd have the 45 minutes and she knew the right questions to ask to get me to start talking about things and I might start to tear up and then the time would be up.
40:08
And then I learned a lot not to schedule anything right after because often I would go in the car and just start sobbing.
40:15
And that was the hard work of recovery.
40:18
I needed my therapist to guide me and help me understand um what I had done with all these emotions all these years and ask questions to elicit talk about these difficult experiences,
40:31
but she couldn't do the crying and the feeling for me.
40:35
And it was often after I walked out the door,
40:37
sitting in my car that,
40:40
you know,
40:40
that those tears that I thought would never end.
40:43
And then I didn't do that every single time,
40:46
obviously.
40:47
But that was the feeling,
40:48
the feelings,
40:50
that was the feeling,
40:51
the feelings and um it takes so much energy,
40:56
it's so hard.
40:58
Um But it was doing things like that,
41:01
that really helped me feel and process literally decades of internalized emotions.
41:07
And um I'm grateful for that process and now I'm so much better at identifying what I'm feeling and being able to express it.
41:21
And you learn,
41:22
especially after you write a book.
41:24
Um And your life is no longer private.
41:26
You learn who you can share with and who you can't.
41:30
Um So I'm grateful for the people in my life that I can share if I am feeling sad or anxious or upset about something.
41:38
Um,
41:39
and,
41:39
you know,
41:40
it's almost just like with grief,
41:42
you know,
41:42
you know,
41:43
the people that you can talk to and the others that can't handle it and it's not a reflection of them.
41:48
It's just their comfort level or discomfort with difficult things.
41:52
It's the same thing with certain friends.
41:54
You know,
41:54
they're the ones that I can let my guard down and say,
41:57
you know,
41:57
that was really upsetting.
41:58
Whereas in the past,
41:59
I was always the one people came to,
42:01
I would never have admitted that I was sad or upset or feeling difficult emotions.
42:07
So,
42:08
um my recovery journey just forced,
42:10
forced me basically to allow vulnerability and to feel all the feelings,
42:16
to literally talk about the difficult experiences in my life for the very first time.
42:21
Um It's hard,
42:23
there's no shortcuts,
42:24
you know,
42:24
we wouldn't be on a podcast having this conversation if this were easy,
42:28
right?
42:29
It was one of the hardest things I've ever done.
42:31
And,
42:31
you know,
42:31
when you're trying to restore weight and eat the food too,
42:34
you know,
42:34
at the same time,
42:35
it's that recovery journey is,
42:38
is difficult,
42:39
but it's so worth it.
42:42
Um If you had told me even five years ago that we'd be having these conversations and,
42:47
you know,
42:47
five years ago,
42:48
my recovery was in a good place.
42:49
I was sharing my recovery story at treatment centers in Boston.
42:53
But I still felt so much shame and secrecy.
42:55
I'd come home.
42:56
I couldn't even tell people where I was or what I was doing.
42:59
And here I already written a story about my recovery yet.
43:02
Oh,
43:02
I was in Boston for a seminar.
43:04
You know,
43:04
I could never be honest.
43:06
And if I ever did start to talk about having an eating disorder,
43:10
I always made it sound like it was so far in the past,
43:12
I felt so much pain.
43:13
And that's another thing I see with women in midlife.
43:17
And again,
43:17
I'm generalizing the women,
43:18
I'm sure it's men and anybody else too.
43:21
I think there's even more shame.
43:22
The older you are not that people don't feel shame earlier.
43:27
But I think some society just thinks you're supposed to have it all figured out by a certain age.
43:33
So I think that shame factor also prevents um women in midlife from getting the treatment they deserve and the treatment they need because they feel too ashamed.
43:42
And um but I will tell you the flip side of that.
43:46
Uh Once I went public with my eating disorder in every detail in my book,
43:52
it just feels like freedom.
43:54
I don't worry about what other people think my story is mine.
43:57
Nobody can not.
43:59
Um But I'll never forget how anxious I was the night before I released the cover of my book on my social media three months before my book was published.
44:06
And I'm like,
44:07
oh my God,
44:07
everyone's gonna know I had an eating disorder,
44:09
you know.
44:10
So here I'm so excited to share,
44:11
but I'm also anxious about what people are gonna think and now don't worry about other people,
44:16
what other people think.
44:17
Um And I love hearing from people and it's just very empowering to be able to help others and share my story.
44:25
So I'm,
44:26
I'm grateful but it wasn't easy to get to this place.
44:29
Yeah.
44:30
Sorry Sam,
44:31
I keep saying at the same time,
44:33
what was that shift like when you,
44:36
when you shared your uh the picture of your book and like what?
44:42
Yeah,
44:42
what was that like you mentioned the anxiety previous and it was II,
44:47
I remember it clearly.
44:48
It was February of 2021.
44:50
I literally wrote my entire manuscript during the pandemic from March of 2020 to January of 2021 because everything I was doing was not happening.
44:59
Otherwise I'd probably still be on like chapter three,
45:02
you know that pandemic,
45:03
a silver lining.
45:05
But anyway,
45:06
the night before I was gonna share because I worked with the graphic designer and you know,
45:09
went back and forth to come up with this cover and I was very proud of it and excited about it.
45:14
But I was so anxious because I kept my eating disorder a secret from so many people in my life.
45:19
I'm like,
45:20
oh my gosh.
45:21
People on Facebook and Instagram are gonna know I had an eating disorder,
45:25
you know,
45:25
and this was even before that people could read the book,
45:27
this was just the cover.
45:29
And then when my book was published in May of 2021 obviously,
45:33
it was very exciting.
45:34
And,
45:35
but even then I thought,
45:36
oh,
45:37
maybe just my family and friends or read it,
45:39
they'll humor me whatever.
45:41
I never in my wildest dreams anticipated what has unfolded since.
45:46
And I'm grateful every single day,
45:48
I didn't realized that there weren't many books out there for women in midlife that really show that recovery is possible.
45:54
And um you know,
45:56
one thing has just led to another since then,
45:58
I feel like I have my third career now.
46:00
Um And um I just never anticipated any of this,
46:04
even when I was writing.
46:05
I,
46:05
I thought,
46:06
you know,
46:06
the number one purpose was to help myself heal on the deepest level possible,
46:11
which it definitely did.
46:13
But between sharing the cover and then people reading my book and knowing that,
46:18
you know,
46:18
so many details of my life are out there.
46:21
It's so freeing and I never anticipated that.
46:25
But the word is freedom.
46:27
I can be me and I don't have to worry about what anyone else thinks.
46:32
Oh,
46:33
that's a good celebrate for you.
46:37
So I know we're almost out of time and I'm so sad about it.
46:41
Um But I wanted to ask you,
46:43
you know,
46:43
the last chapter of your book is titled Gifts of Recovery.
46:48
And what do you think has been your favorite gift so far?
46:52
And why?
46:55
Um for me personally,
46:57
it is that freedom and the ability to be fully present in my life.
47:01
But the primary gift of my recovery is being able to share my story with others and to truly,
47:08
it sounds so cliche but truly give hope to those who are struggling that at any age,
47:14
no matter how hard it's been,
47:16
recovery is possible.
47:19
And if I can reach the place in my life where I am obviously with more of my life behind me than ahead of me,
47:27
anybody can no matter how hard it's been and the journey is,
47:32
is tough.
47:32
It's never linear.
47:33
Mine included was not linear um but just one baby step at a time moving forward.
47:40
So that is the greatest gift is to be able to share my story with others and also through mentorship and group support,
47:47
just sharing my experiences,
47:49
validating others and giving them.
47:52
Um What for me worked to help me get to the point where I am today.
47:57
Well,
47:57
we're so grateful that you came on here to share your story with us.
48:00
I think this episode is gonna help so many people.
48:03
Thank you so much for having me.
48:05
I'm honored to be here today,
48:07
Betsy,
48:07
it's been such a privilege and I'm just curious real quick.
48:11
Um If somebody wanted to get in touch with you or start following you on social media?
48:16
What is your Instagram handle?
48:18
How can we get in touch with you all those things?
48:20
My email is actually in the back of my book,
48:22
which is why I hear from a lot of people.
48:24
So my email is public Betsy Brenner three at gmail.com.
48:28
I'm on Instagram at Betsy Brenner author and on Facebook the longest match and my website is www dot Betsy brenner.com.
48:38
Awesome.
48:38
Thank you so much,
48:39
Betsy and thank you to everyone that was listening today.
48:42
Um We hope you enjoyed the show.
48:47
Thank you for listening with us today on All Bodies All Foods presented by the Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.
48:54
We're looking forward to you joining us next time as we continue these conversations.