Latest / High Five Hot Mess Podcast / High Five Hot Mess | Help! I Need an Adult: Family Conflict During a Crisis
Transcript
- Lisa Wilson: Do you guys remember when we were kids that we used to have to draw these maps of our houses in case there was a fire? Like it was part of like regular everyday school projects that we had to like work with our family, draw these maps out, know which window you'd climb out of. We all picked a meeting space when we got out of the house, where we where we would meet. Nobody thought that was morbid. Nobody said, Hey, let's just hope the house never catches fire, right? We practice because if there ever was an emergency, we didn't want to make decisions while the house was burning. So why don't we do the same thing as adults? Because here's the truth. Every one of us is going to face a family emergency someday. Someone is going to get sick. Somebody's going to have an accident. Someone is going to become unable to make decisions for themselves. And when that day comes, most families discover the plan they thought they had no longer works or they never made a plan. Not because they didn't care. Because nobody ever taught us how. It's great to have a plan, but here's the part nobody warns us about. When the emergency finally comes, it doesn't just test the plan, it tests the family. The crisis doesn't create new family dynamics. It turns up the volume on those already existing family dynamics. Today we're talking about how to draw the map before life changes everything, and how to keep the people you love from losing each other when they do. No need to fear, people, we found an adult to help. Our adult today is Ryan Widner, a licensed marriage and family therapist. He helps people navigate relationships, communication, and the conversations we all know we need to have, but might have been putting on. You know what? Let's get into it. Brian, welcome to High Five Hot Mess. Ryan Wynder: All right, thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Lisa Wilson: Yeah, we're so excited. So hey, Lisa's out. She's on vacation. So it's just gonna be me. and we are talking about how we've spent our lives basically preparing for quicksand, earthquake, hurricane, like all these wild things that could potentially happen to us in any in any scenario, but we've never really sat down and had these hard conversations about what happens if someone gets sick, what happens if there's an emergency, What are our roles? What are our, you know, things that we need to get prepared for and you know, be prepared in case something like this happens. And it's crazy because I mean we know these emergencies are coming, but we all just kind of pretend like it's not gonna happen, maybe. I don't know. Ryan Wynder: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: why do you think gut instinct? Why do people avoid these hard conversations? Ryan Wynder: Well, I think you s it's weird 'cause not maybe not weird, but it's ironic that you said the word avoid. I think the reason they avoid cause we just have a tendency to have like almost like an avoidant kind of mindset with a lot of these things. It's almost like talking about speaks them into existence and the reality of it rather than the notion that actually talking about it could make a difference in terms of like how we come through something. But there there is a little bit, it's almost like voodoo or something, or some weird kind of like feeling of like I'm gonna curse myself if I actually have a conversation about it. So I think a lot of it's just based around avoidance in general. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Ryan Wynder: So yeah, if that Lisa Wilson: Yeah. So and it's it's interesting that you say that because my parents never talked about it because they thought it was bad luck. Like, you know, and like here we are, just fully grown adults walking around like not talking about things because we think it's bad luck. Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: One of a lot of our listeners, users, our listeners, when we did some outreach around what they wanted to talk about, what came back resoundingly is how to have these conversations with your family, primarily, how do you have this with your kids? So, and I know that one person you we can't answer this universally across the board, but if we could just have a general tactic for that, that would be helpful. Ryan Wynder: Mm. I don't know if there's like a specific way of just saying, Hey, I'm gonna bring this up in this way, other than just like setting an understanding like for me it's about expectations in in a lot of ways, where it's like maybe just sitting our kids down and saying, the way that we look at life or the way that we want to see life is that it's gonna give us all these good things and life's gonna go a certain way and maybe sometimes, you know, even in the notion of like, you know, you watch movies or you you read books or you you think about fairy tales and it's like life will be so great if it just kinda like if it goes this way. But the thing about expectations or the thing about, you know, life is that sometimes it just it it doesn't always give us what we want. Now I think from another teaching aspect, it's important to help kids understand that when life doesn't give us what is what we want, it doesn't mean that we're bad or any that we've done necessarily even something wrong to get that, right? It's just more like life sometimes just brings us things that we can't always control. Sickness, disease, whatever you know, these different things or even just unexpected crises, car accidents can bring, you know, whatever it may be, right? And so I think it's important to help kids understand that with our expectations and with our hope for good things. But still bad things can happen. And one, again, that's not about us. It's not necessarily something you did to do it. But we have to learn to adjust or even adapt or make, you know, an adjustment with that. So even just like with that small thing, so me and my my my kids are all adults. they're twenty six, twenty, almost twenty-three, and almost twenty. And we went on a little family trip recently to Toronto, Ontario, Canada. we decided to go to Niagara Falls for the day. Trains are cool, but they're not always the most reliable in terms of if anything's on the tracks, they just shut the train down and you just have to wait till they clear the track and whatever. So basically what was supposed to be a two hour train ride ended up being a four hour train ride. And again, that may seem like irrelevant, but when your kids, family, what when you're kind of expecting to do something or to be back on time in order to do something. then when life again gives you the smallest things that are problematic or whatever, you have to be able to adjust and learn how to deal with them. Now, again, it may seem like small, you're on vacation, whatever, but everybody's got an expectation of like how they want things to go. And when they don't go that way, what do you do to adjust that? So those things, simple things, and I again I was kinda happy because my middle son, he tends to be a little bit more like I not I wanna say entitled, but likes to have things go his way. And so even just seeing him adapt to the idea that okay, this didn't work out or this didn't go that you know, the way we expected or whatever, and it was fine, we can make an adjustment and we can create a different plan or we can do something different. Now that's just on a small scale, but life's full of those types of things where, you know, what are you gonna do when there's something on the tracks of life? Lisa Wilson: Mm. Ryan Wynder: And you gotta make an adjustment, right? You gotta be able to change. And I think having those kinds of conversations with your kids in terms of expectations, in terms of how they want, you know, we maybe want life to go and how that's not always gonna work out for us. basically just being able to have those types of talks with them. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Well, and I think look so a lot of our friend circle are millennials or Gen X, and many of us were never really taught kind of how to have this conversation or or the expectations conversation. It was do what I told you to do because I told you to do it, or I don't want to talk about that, or mind your own business. I mean, I got a I got a whole laundry list of them. And my family was, I mean, we all loved each other very, very much, but there were just things that Ryan Wynder: Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: When they didn't want to talk about it, they didn't. And they never taught you to how to how to have it. Now, years of therapy later, I feel like I'm more equipped. but it took me a long time to get there, right? And so one of the things it in like helping people prepare to kind of how they should have these conversations or what they should be talking about. If a family could have three conversations before a crisis to to make sure they're gonna get through that crisis okay, what would those conversations be? Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. three so what would the three conversations be? three conversations. Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Like they had to cover three conversations. Ryan Wynder: Well one I think we already talked about one. One one would be the expectation one, right? I think the second one would be like you mentioned something, I don't know if it w this is more like not necessarily about the conversation, but you mentioned a word in there about the about different things. Lisa Wilson: Expectation. Ryan Wynder: you mentioned about like things to not avoid or or things to avoid maybe in how you bring something up. But I think it's important w that we are mindful of our language. Like when you use the word should or you know, like you should do this or you should do that. I think there's elements of that where that's a that's a maybe appropriate, but there's also it can burn a thing into a kid's brain where it's like, okay, if they're not doing that, then they're doing something wrong. So I think we just have to be careful about being flexible in terms of how we say things. So conversations that revolve around like not only just expectation, but around flexibility and that don't feel like they pigeonhole kids into a way of like Lisa Wilson: Mm. Ryan Wynder: This is because if it if you don't do it this way, then somehow it's wrong. So that's another I think important conversation in there, especially when it comes to crisis, because how do you know exactly how you're gonna f you know specifically respond? And if you think back and you think, well, I should have done this, and it's like, well, maybe, but you know, maybe maybe that's just not what was in the cards for you at that time. So I think not and maybe that's a that's Lisa Wilson: Right. Yeah. Ryan Wynder: a conversation around roles or or things that maybe people feel like that they might be doing or not doing. So that there's some conversation in that. And then actually the third thing I thought about when it comes to conversations is really more about like a general sense of things. It's not really maybe a specific conversation, but I think you have to be able to build a basis or a foundation of just communication with your kids and within your family. And so that when because to me it's like when crisis happens, you don't all of a sudden want to be like, we need to learn how to talk. We need to learn how to express ourselves or we need to learn how to, you know, do all these things that we wish we should have done. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Ryan Wynder: So I don't necessarily think the third one's so much about like having a specific conversation as it is more about building a foundation of just general openness. Like I think when you teach your kids that they can be open with you, when they can share things with you and not feel bad or shamed or or any of that nature from an early state. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Ryan Wynder: They're gonna be more likely to feel and be able to express things, especially again during difficult times or crises, that are gonna allow them to maybe get through that a lot better because they have that sense of trust and safety in the parents. So so yeah, just to read out that last minute, I think that's more about building a foundation of communication in general, not just necessarily anything about something specific, other than just knowing. that your kids can be open with you and they can share things with you and that's gonna be an entrusted thing. Lisa Wilson: So is to the topic of the word should, you know, that's something that we all struggle with when we sit, especially when emotions are heightened, right, during like a family crisis. Are there words that that are more open and create conversation versus words that maybe close down conversations? Ryan Wynder: Uh-huh. just giving people a sense of like okayness around like, hey, it's okay, or it's understandable that you feel this way, or it's it's normal to feel this way. Besides that, just under you know, giving them a sense of this is okay, this is normal, this is understandable that you'd be going through this or feeling this or experiencing this based on these circumstances. Those are probably the main ones. I I think the other thing, and again, I guess it depends on maybe what we're talking about. But there's a book, if you don't mind me sharing this, I hopefully it kind of ties in. There's a book called Finding Meaning, and it's a book about grief and loss, but Lisa Wilson: No, do it. Ryan Wynder: There's a very applicable part in that book where sometimes it says, you know, like sometimes we have to be and allow others to be in either the light or the dark of of grief. And whether that's in a crisis or something else, I think that it's applicable where the idea is that if somebody's in the dark of something, you know, difficult and they We're kind of just feeling that, you know, a lot of times we want to say things like, hey, they're in a better place, or it's whatever, whatever type of thing to try to make that person feel better about what they've experienced and lost. And I think sometimes we don't necessarily w wanna hear that because, you know, yeah, that person might be in a better place if we have a different faith or if we have a faith about something, but that better place doesn't bring them back to where you want them to be. And so sometimes people just need to be able to be okay with feeling what they're feeling. And if they're in the dark of something, it's like, hey, I want to support you in that or I want to help you to feel okay about being where you're at and allow that to be what it is rather than trying to convince you to be in a feeling that's not comfortable for me. Cause that's really what it's about is like there's a level of comfort. And I think that that's where the avoidance comes back to is that sometimes we don't have these conversations because they're not comfortable and they bring out a certain level of discomfort in us and maybe we're not sure like what kind of feelings or what kind of things they're gonna bring up. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Ryan Wynder: in our kids or ourselves. And so that's another reason we avoid But a lot of times we are trying to manage our own discomfort in what we say or do to other people, which then in turn is maybe somehow making them feel like what they're feeling is not okay. So that's a little bit of another tricky thing that we need to be mindful of Lisa Wilson: we all grieve differently and and how we handle any crisis is as unique to us as our fingerprint. Right. there are some patterns that you could probably recognize when you look at and you stand up at the fifty thousand foot level and look down. But for the most part, it's very, very different. And sometimes we don't give each other space to kind of have that have Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Lisa Wilson: Have my experience and my moment about this particular thing. that's so wise of you to kind of bring that up. and just making sure that, you know, we all experience things differently and we all come to the table with our own perspective of the world and making sure we acknowledge that in others, right? And and letting them have that space. I think that is that leads us right into our next section, which is really about The family crisis. So just to give you a little bit of background. So both of my parents passed away and they both passed away fairly quickly and of completely unforeseen things. And it one was a long illness and one was a short illness, but neither one was prepared for this in the moment. Like they like we had all talked about if something happens loosely, you know, my mom will come live with me or dad will come live with me, and you know, we'll do this, we'll do that. But when a crisis hits, Everyone kind of it it just got very weird and everyone kind of got very, very touchy and w I saw parts of my family I just never expected to see and had never seen before that moment. and I know that a lot of our our circle and our friends are kind of going through this right now. We've got friends with their families are kind of are are either all over the place and are trying to come together to show support for this incapacitated family member. Or they're the caregiver and they're kind of having to manage through all these different personalities and family dynamics. So just specific questions that kind of have come in is why does one child almost always become the responsible one? Is that role chosen over time or is that because they've just been that child from the very beginning? Ryan Wynder: it's a good question. from a family system standpoint, I would say probably that role probably feels like it's probably been there. and probably just the that person sort of like rises to that in that in that situation. Now, interestingly enough, we have not talked a whole lot between each other, you know, like it's but briefly we have kind of an interesting we've we've Lisa Wilson: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Ryan Wynder: have some interesting connections here. So I've lost both my parents as well. and my mom was a cancer survivor, but then I guess to some degree she was a cancer survivor. Then the cancer came back. And when it came back the second time, there was just a reality of like, it's not a matter of of if, it's just a matter of like when she will pass from this cancer, right? And my my parents were divorced so they weren't married they weren't together at the time that Lisa Wilson: wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ryan Wynder: my mom passed, she was she'd been remarried. But like, during that time there was a couple of different conversations that I had with her that nobody else either wanted to have or wanted to face or wanted to, you know, again, whether it's about discomfort, whether it's about me being the responsible one, or whether it's just like a level of comfort with difficult conversations, 'cause it's not like you kinda wanna have these conversations that are a part of the reality of that your mom's gonna pass, you know, at some point, but they are a reality, right? I mean, and I think again, like that's something so I chose to have a conversation with her about her fine or her financial settings and all the things and her if she had a will and all that stuff. And then later on we talked about like, hey, you know what, you are in the position where you can choose whatever you want for your funeral. You know, not everybody gets that choice and maybe it's a little bit morbid, but hey Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ryan Wynder: If you wanna plan that out right now and have what you want to have in place so it's not a bunch of grieving people trying to figure out what you might have wanted, let's just plan that out right now, right? and so it's it's what you want, not what I think you would want or not whatever. and again, later on after she passed, that sec I mean, the first conversation, my brothers, I guess maybe you could say we're Lisa Wilson: Right. I mean Yeah. Ryan Wynder: happy with because that resulted in in them benefiting financially from something that she wasn't gonna do i had I not had that conversation. The second part of it they were not as happy about because they felt like they got left out of something that or different ones were like maybe not given a chance to do something that may be a part of the funeral. I'm like, well this is just what she wanted. Like, you know, it didn't come from me, it came from her. Like those types of things, those difficult conversations in those moments, they're not easy to have. They're not necessarily things that, you know, again, maybe I wanted to have, but they were necessary, right? And so I don't know, kind of sorry if I danced or if I veered away from your question. I don't know if that was just me being the responsible one, if that's a role that I had, if it was just a part of my profession and just being comfortable with like difficult conversations. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Ryan Wynder: or a combination of both or whatever. But but it's definitely something that, you know, needs to happen, I think. So Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Like I am like very close with my brothers. Was very close with my grandparents, very close with my mom and dad. We're I mean, we're all my mom and dad were my best friends, my brothers as well. And then something happened, like when my dad became really sick and I was I became his full time caregiver Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: And you know, when you're the person that's kind of in it, like it's really hard for you to to tell your grandparents to mind their own business. You know? Like when they keep coming over and and criticizing and nitpicking every single choice, every single single decision. And I knew at the time that it was coming from a place of fear and that they were, you know, they were losing their son, two sons Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Right. Uh-huh. Lisa Wilson: died within a week of each other of the same thing, which is nuts. it was really hard for me being the one in the middle to kind of have these conversations. And I think my siblings, my brothers and I really started kind of taking it out on each other, like our grief, instead of like saying, what do you need help with? Here's how I can help. It was really more about, well, you're not doing this and you're not doing that. So do you have any advice for all of us out here that our siblings Ryan Wynder: wow. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: That are being criticized by other family members, and how we can have conversations that are not so emotionally charged. Ryan Wynder: I think I I think it's like not necessarily that we have to always avoid the emotional charge of of the conversations 'cause like you said in those situations that's kind of what happened in my family was more like in in the the idea of like you're almost like taking your grief out on each other without really saying that that's what you're doing. I think the big thing that I learned from that and as I've kind of even just been obviously in doing what I've doing is it's more about in having those conversations to try to be curious. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Ryan Wynder: You know, and stay curious about things. Right. Lisa Wilson: Such a yes, be curio ask more questions. so I come at everything I do from the impression of like here, like control is a trauma response. Right? So I very much try to control the narrative and to make sure that I'm in a position where I can help everyone and fix everything. It's just in my DNA. But as I've gotten older, I've really started to say, okay, well, why are you feeling that way? Or well, what what makes you think that? Ryan Wynder: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: And that coming from a place of curiosity really is such a great tip. Ryan Wynder: It just I mean obviously it's one of those things where it's it can be hard to kind of be in that place in the moment, but it's like kind of training ourselves, you know, through time to be like, okay, as opposed to just maybe reacting to that right away. in well, and I think this is a skill to learn again, hopefully it's not going off on tangent, but Victor Frankel said the space between trigger and response, that's where we need to find ourselves because if we can create space between what triggers us and when we react, then maybe we can find a space to understand even ourselves. I mean, you know, be curious about like the trigger, like why am I having that r you know, reaction? Why am I having what's going on for me? Maybe I should think about that before I even respond. So we can have that own internal curiosity, but I think in the same right, you could flip that around and say, okay, well maybe that person had a reaction I wonder what that was about for them rather than just react you know, 'cause a lot of times what we just get get going is like reaction back and forth. He somebody overreacts to something, then we overreact to that, and then it it just, you know, causes a you know Yeah. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Family fight that lasts well beyond the crisis. And I think that that's, you know, if I had anything to go back and kind of do over again, it would be to, you know, step outside of the situation and realize that yes, I had given up my job and moved back in with my parents, and they were lying to me about smoking in the house, and they were acting like Ryan Wynder: Right. Lisa Wilson: Full grown toddlers and horrible children. and so I was kind of dealing with all that and not really leaving space for my brothers to help, you know? Like I was like, I've got this, I've got it all worked out. here's my schedule, here's the plan. if I could do it all over, it would definitely be different. It would be way more collaborative and I would have asked a lot more questions than assuming, in the way that I assumed so much. Ryan Wynder: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: So even though we are kind of all thrown into crisis, like so one, if we talk about it and we start getting used to having these conversations to your point earlier, we make it okay to ask these really dark and scary questions and we ask the right people, the people experiencing it, instead of us make asking each other who are not in it. there's still gonna be those points of contention, like especially over money. Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: That's something that always happens. Luckily my parents had none, but like over money, right? And and who's gonna get what and when. But how do you know if if the conflict and the discussion you're trying to resolve is just not productive and that you need to change tactics? Ryan Wynder: Right. how would you know that? Probably just by what I mean, maybe sounds simple enough, but it's just like by the outcome, I mean you know, what you're getting from it. I I guess it would be hard to kinda like, you know, put that into context as to like what that might exactly look like, other than just like it would feel like it you would know because what you're dealing with tends to be more frustration, more anger, more whatever. So it's like obviously something's not getting through somewhere. So either I've got to change tactness or just recognize that maybe that's That's something that, you know, it it's one thing when we're dealing with our kids. It's another thing, like you said, maybe when we're dealing with other siblings in situations where, you know, maybe that's just not gonna be resolved and there's gonna be that, you know, unfortunate conflict there that's just not gonna go anywhere because that person's perspective and maybe my perspective are just gonna be different regardless of whatever, you know, sense of curiosity or sense of understanding we try to maybe bring to the table. Sometimes it's just not gonna budge the other person, right? and I don't know if this is exactly what you were asking, but when it comes down to an outcome, and even when you think about the idea of boundaries, it's like we have to have a sense of boundary over our sense of value for ourselves, our sense of morals, our sense of what's important to us and what's right for us. And I think when you're in a conflict with another family. Member potentially over something like you know, something difficult that's happened. You have to just ask yourself, okay, when do I like if I'm trying to make space for them and have understanding for them, but that's bringing me maybe outside the realm of my own level of values or what's important to me, then maybe that's not the right space for me. Maybe I'm giving in too much to something that's not, you know, being reciprocated or I'm not getting that back from them. And so then is that a place that I need to kind of reassess and then be like, what they're wanting for me to resolve that conflict is not fair or reasonable or whatever, and I might have to look at that as well too. So Lisa Wilson: Yeah. I was always like, what is it that you need? Like let's let's walk through like I want this and you want what? Like help me understand it from that place, right? So that was always but again, my my brothers and I get along really well. So it was, you know, it was easier for me to have that than maybe with my grandparents who had a very peculiar way of looking at everything and and Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: Like, like I said, you are who you are and but in crisis, everything kind of flares up, right? So if you're someone who is selfish or during a crisis, you're just gonna lock in, right? And it's really hard sometimes to navigate around that. But is there when emotions are running high, is there a phrase that people could use or a set like a a perspective that would help them like de-escalate quickly to keep the conversation on track Ryan Wynder: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: Is there one that can de-escalate or one that will definitely implode it? Ryan Wynder: I mean, when it comes to that, I think those are just common things that we tend to do or can tend to do when we kinda say the things like you, like you're doing this or you're whatever. I mean obviously that kind of language is always gonna be more inciting and ac accusation kind of base when we kind of point the finger at somebody else and use that kind of language. I think we, you know, when it comes to conflictual kind of stuff, you know, the more that we can kind of keep things in the eye state, you know, in the eye kind of realm, like I'm feeling this, or another way Lisa Wilson: Uh-huh. Ryan Wynder: Terrence Real, who does a lot of like marriage stuff. I mean, and again, we're kind of, you know, but taking things from different situations, but he does a lot of stuff on marriage conflict. And with one of the phrases I really like about what he says to try to de-escalate, is he just says, you know, the story I'm the story I'm telling myself about what's happening or what happened is this. So then what you do by that is like you basically take on the responsibility of this is my story. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Ryan Wynder: It could be totally different than your story. It could be totally crazy. It could be totally made up. I don't really know. But it's the story I'm telling myself about what's happening here. And so, but it's also giving the other person to say, but I'm open, you know, to hearing your part of that or what what you think about that or what, you know, what you might think in terms of my story or kind of what but you're like I said, the biggest thing with that is like you're owning that that's my story. That this is kind of coming from a place of my my brain. Which I know could be skewed, right? Like 'cause this is what I'm telling myself based on my experience, based on what's happened for me, maybe even based on my role in the family. Like this is like my my thing, right? So I think that's a good one. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Well, I think anything we can help put in our little toolboxes to help us. I mean, that's really what everyone was kind of like, I don't know how to handle that. Like, and I'll tell you what my dad used to always do is he would stop if like, because you know, when you're a hormonal teenager or an adult, there's a lot of like like big emotion, big feeling. And same is very similar when you're going through crisis. And he used to stop and say, you know that I love you. Ryan Wynder: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: Like nothing that you're saying or doing is gonna make me love you any less. Like I love you, and I just want to try to understand why this is happening. And I love your concept of, and not yours specifically, but you quoted it of, you know, here's here's my story. This is my version of events, and how like let's walk through it. Let me hear yours. Ryan Wynder: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Lisa Wilson: Right. So that we can see where we're each coming from to try to get to compromise. Because one of the things that Lisa and I have been talking a lot about during this whole series is how it becomes about everyone but the person going through crisis. Right. It really becomes about how like everything becomes about like who's buying the groceries and who's supposed to be who's taking more doctors' appointments and who's doing this and who and it it just Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: becomes about everyone but the person in crisis. So anything we can do to try to get it back to that person, I think will definitely help. I mean, winning the argument is not the same as saving the relationship, you know? And like I was lucky when I got out of mine, I still had a very close relationship with my brothers, but there was definitely, it was definitely different, you know, like we, we still harbored some hard wounds in those conversations that I wish we hadn't have done. I wish we could have Ryan Wynder: Right. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: figured it out. But again, we didn't have a toolbox. Like we had never had these conversations before. And I think so many of us are finding ourselves in those positions. from personal experience, I was the caregiver for my dad. But I noticed one of the things Ryan Wynder: Right, right. Lisa Wilson: The commonality amongst a lot of my friends that are also in the caregiver role is they have a tendency to give too much, like to let people push their boundaries. So earlier you were talking about like how to have these conversations based on your personal boundaries. I'm only speaking from my own personal perspective, but I always felt like I couldn't say no. Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Like and it didn't matter what anybody brought that they wanted. I try I I was so desperate to try to make everybody happy so that there wasn't conflict around like for my dad or for my mom that I ended up resenting everyone. Right? Which is not healthy at all and not what I recommend. So how do you set expectations and boundaries with family members around here's what I can do and I can't do anymore without Ryan Wynder: Right. Lisa Wilson: Feeling guilty or like you're letting them down. Ryan Wynder: well I think I think you answer the question but then I think it leads itself into like a a more maybe difficult one because I think how you do that is basically you can say things like what you just said, right? this is what I can do, this is what I'm not able to do, this is what I have the capacity for. I think those are those are good ways to bring that up. I think the challenge really becomes in the second part of what you said, which is like how do I do that and not feel guilty? It's usually the guilt that keeps us from even Saying those things because we feel bad, even almost like thinking about saying them. So we just don't say, Well, I hey, I don't want to upset Aunt Lois because you know she went through the trouble of whatever, or she's, you know, whatever it might be, right? We don't we don't want to upset somebody else, you know, and so then we kind of like take that on ourselves because you know it's better, I guess, if I just take it on, even though I'm struggling, than it is to offend, I guess, or hurt somebody else's feelings or make them feel bad. And I think when it comes Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Ryan Wynder: comes to guilt, I I look at guilt like like this in terms of how do you get over having guilt? Well, guilt is just an uncomfortable feeling that we have to deal with internally and it's something that the only way to kind of get through it is recognize, okay, I am feeling guilt and that guilt is trying to get me to do something different than what I need to maybe do for myself. And the only way to really do that thing is to just push through it and be uncomfortable of ourselves and do the thing anyway. To me, like it was a good analogy. Like when we were in Canada, we visited the CN Tower, went up in the tower. And there's a section in there where the floor is like glass. And then you can go kind of stand on it, but when you're standing on it, obviously you're looking down into, you know, nothing's below you. And it's like for me anyway, it's like your brain is like, okay, that's dangerous. dangerous and you're putting your foot out there and you're like, okay, I'm trying to walk out there and it's really slow and it's kinda, you know, hesitant. But that's kinda like how it is against with guilt. It's like to push against guilt, it's like there's a part of you that's feeling like, I can't do that. That that's bad. And there's a part of you that's like, no, you're safe, it's okay, this is just not comfortable. It's just something I've got to kinda push through. And so I think when it comes to guilt and being able to stand up for ourselves and and be able to express what's important for us or what our needs might be, it's just one of those things where we've gotta use get used to pushing through the guilt in that case and being able to just still stand up for what's important for us, if that makes sense or if that yeah. Lisa Wilson: No yeah. Any tips Ryan Wynder: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: for those of us who try to set boundaries in a very healthy way of here's what I can do and here's what I can't do and then family members just shove past it time and time again. Ryan Wynder: Just shun. I'd say the advice is just don't give up. There's a book called Set Boundaries and Find Peace. And in that book it talks a lot about the notion of like when we I think we think in our minds that when we set boundaries that that boundary is just automatically gonna be respected and and given attention to. And the reality is is that boundaries often have to be set, reset, reset a third time. So I think setting a boundary just has to come along come along with the idea that that boundary might have to be reiterated several times before people actually see it as a boundary. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. And and I think that that is what people kind of I mean, I I don't have a problem with boundaries. I'm very clear and I draw lines all the time. And I I have a saying that what you allow, you encourage, right? So and I truly believe that in my heart. So I I don't have those issues, but I know that so many of my friends are really getting bullied by family members as we're tr all trying to deal with this crisis. Ryan Wynder: Almost good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: And I think that that advice you gave is great. It's just the expectation that they're gonna they're gonna be who they are. They're bul if they're bullies when there isn't a crisis, buckle up, baby, because they're gonna be real bullies when there is one. And you just have to not be afraid to continue to revisit those boundaries over and over. Ryan Wynder: Yeah. They're gonna be both Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well and sometimes I mean, I don't think the intent for everybody is always bad. they're dealing with their own discomfort. Like somebody wants to help and so they feel this need to help. And it's like you may not be in a place where you n that you want or need that help. Not because of who they are, because y they're a bad person or anything like that. So I think sometimes not everybody's int their their intent always isn't bad, you know, in terms of whatever. So they might just feel like, Hey, I'm just trying to do this good thing, but Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Ryan Wynder: Good intentions are not a reason to break boundaries, so sometimes we might just have to take that and to be like, Okay, I see that this person hasn't good intentions, but they may just need to have that, reiterated to them that this is a boundary for me. But on the second Part of that there are some people that just don't like having boundaries set for them and they will try to knock those boundaries down. So again, might have to be consistent about just putting those boundaries back up because some people don't want to respect boundaries. So yeah. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. So what would you say to the person listening today who feels like they're carrying all the weight of their family during their particular crisis? Ryan Wynder: I think two things. Either you need to have a conversation with those other family members that that that could help you to share the weight. Because the other thing is too, like I think you kind of said this to some degree, but like whether it's like the whole notion of like we teach people how to treat us or whatever, like if you're taking on the load, some people are just gonna be willing to let you take on the load because that's less that they have to do. So unless and they might think Lisa Wilson: Mm. Ryan Wynder: Again, well, you've got it, you've always had it, or this is kinda who you are, or you like doing these things, which who likes, you know, carrying the load during a crisis. we don't know what other people are telling themselves about how they are perceiving something. So I think either it's like either I've got to be better at s you know, standing up and having those conversations and saying, Hey, I could use some help here. Or if you are comfortable taking on the load, then the next best thing is like, well, you better have some good self care along with that, right? that's the other side of it too, and you you kind of allude to this a little bit, but like I I think when we kind of go into that mode where we feel like we've got to take on the crisis, we also then maybe forget ourselves in that mix and it's almost like and whether that's the guilt, like, okay, I've got to do this 'cause this person is struggling and I need to be there for But if I'm not taking care of myself, then I'm not gonna show up as good for them as maybe I could if I'm if I don't take time for myself. So Lisa Wilson: And I think realizing just because you're capable doesn't mean you're responsible. You know, like and that I mean, for for the type A people out there right here, it really is like just like for I had this wild conversation, it reminded me marriage therapy. So someone said, you know, every time I ask you to help, you don't want to tell you won't let me help because you want it done a certain way. But the response that the person gave was wild. They were like, Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: I don't want to teach you how to do the thing and then also do the thing and then follow up and do the thing. Like I don't I don't want to parent this. It's easier for me just to do it. But it wasn't until they kind of came at it from that perspective that the other person really understood what what the issue actually was. It wasn't doing the tasks. It was all the the communication around the task that the person wasn't comfortable with. So Ryan Wynder: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: I I just I love this whole approach of really telling your narrative. Like that's the first time I've ever heard it and I just think it's great. and it and I I think it would help solve so many conflicts if people just started coming at it from that direction. I know I have friends out there right now that are quickly taking notes as they're listening to this and and I know that they'll be so appreciative for that because we are all we're all just trying to get through the thing, you know, whatever that thing is for us right now. Ryan Wynder: Is it? Yeah. Lisa Wilson: All right, so now we have my favorite part of the show, I love this. So I'm just gonna give you quick fire questions and we're gonna go. So the biggest mistake families make before a crisis is Ryan Wynder: Yeah. Okay. All right. Let's do it. Okay. well I think the biggest mistake goes back to what I said before, is not building a foundation of communication in their families. So yeah. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: Yep, a hundred percent. Okay, a healthy family boundary sounds like Ryan Wynder: So I'm just gonna give you four things. There in boundaries, there's rigid, there's structure, there's flexible, and there's chaos. So in the two ends, we want to stay away from the two ends, right? We don't wanna be so rigid that Things are, you know, we know what happens is rigidity, but we also don't want to live in chaos. So to me, boundaries are a balance between structure, they kind of have a guideline to them, but they're able to be flexible for situational stuff that comes up that maybe we're not anticipating, right? There's that expectation thing. So I think when we think about boundaries, it's really more about finding a middle space where there there's boundaries give us a level of guidance, but flexibility allows us to adapt to things. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Mm-hmm. Ryan Wynder: That maybe again can come up when when like things like crisis, where it's not necessarily we have to go way outside the realm of like whatever that structure is, but just sometimes we have to adapt and we need to be able to be flexible enough to do that and not feel like again we're we're giving up on something or we're letting go of something, but it's just more of a situational thing. So to me, boundaries, a good boundary is one that has structure, but have flexibility in it. Lisa Wilson: It's an awesome answer. And I'm I think you're talking to me. I'm feeling a little I'm feeling a little sane right now. all right. So one thing families in crisis need to hear is Ryan Wynder: Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. you're not alone. I mean I think everybody goes through crises and it's not you know, it's not a personal thing, it's just like you're not alone. But I think the only way that you can feel sometimes not alone is you have to be able to like s you know, kinda come outside of that and not be ashamed or not feel like again that you've done something to create this crisis that makes you now somehow bad or whatever, but just like you're not alone and it's okay to kinda reach out and ask for help and to to to to get some support. while you're going through that. Lisa Wilson: So one conversation everyone should have this month is Ryan Wynder: Okay. I think that one conversation everyone should have is something that makes them uncomfortable, whether it's about expectations, whether it's about something that they're not talking about in relation to either like something in the future or something that's been, you know, difficult for them. Because I think the only way that we are better at dealing with crisis and like these things we said before is that we have to learn how to deal with uncomfortable things. And that cause that's usually what crisis kind of brings up is a lot of discomfort. And so even if you're not dealing with something that's like specifically crisis oriented, even if you just get better having conversations that are not comfortable, whatever that may be, it could be about sex in your marriage, it could be about, you know, whatever. It's just like, but learning to have conversations that are not comfortable will help prepare you for times when you really need to have those conversations. Lisa Wilson: Yes, you have to build the scaffolding before you can erect the building, right? So I mean that's a hundred percent. So I'm gonna tell you my funny story real quick So my friends call me when they want the honest truth, like the it's called phone a sociopath. I'm not a sociopath though. I asked. I'm not. so that knowing they call me for the the truth, and I had a friend call me, she was so upset because she was having a hard time. Ryan Wynder: Right, right. Yes, yep. Okay. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. Lisa Wilson: Having a conversation with a family member that she was in deep conflict with. Now keep in mind, I have the backstory. I know who these people are over years and years of hearing the stories. And she was like, So I asked Chat GPT how I could if I was in the wrong on this conversation. And Chat GPT told me I was a terrible person and that I was judging in my communication style. So she goes through this whole thing, Ryan. And I'm Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Did well, did you start the conversation with this person as a diagnosed narcissist? She was like, Well, no. I'm like, that probably would have changed the outcome. So my point in might have changed the answer. So my my point in saying that is it's one of the things that keeps coming up is, you know, you can't fail from an empty cup, right? So if you're somebody who is going out of your way and doing everything you can to help everybody, the self-care aspect and the setting of the boundaries and all of that is a lot easier to do if you have Ryan Wynder: There might have changed the answer, yeah. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: The right help. So I would encourage everyone that if you are somebody who is in crisis dealing with these things as they're coming up, get get a therapist. Like get somebody who can help you who doesn't have a dog in the fight, you know, that can give you this unbiased guidance. Cause trust me when I tell you that even in this conversation, Ryan, you've seen things that I never thought about. And it's giving me a lot to think about. And I think it's so important. Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: That we kind of do that for each other, right? And that you you guys don't don't feel like your friend group is great. Okay. Chat GPT good for lots of things, not for handling family crisis and conflict necessarily. So get some therapy if you can. I I would strongly encourage it. yes, you would. so a family emergency plan isn't about paperwork, it's about expecting something. Ryan Wynder: Yeah. Likewise, I would strongly encourage it too. Yes, yeah. Yes. Lisa Wilson: It's not even about expecting something terrible to happen. It's to your point, it's about getting everyone comfortable enough to have these conversations so that when something crazy does happen, we're not all so gobsmacked and grief stricken that we can't we can't treat each other with decency and the emotional volatility on that those family dynamics is turned way, way down, right? Ryan Wynder: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: So it's super important. So you guys, this week, don't try to solve everything. Just start those conversations. Call one person and ask if something happened tomorrow, what's our plan? You know, start with your closest sibling, start with your closest parent or your aunt or your uncle or somebody that you know you trust enough, your family adult, whoever that is, to say, like, what's our plan if this happens? Like Ryan Wynder: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Because I have been so close to death and I've seen people, I've been through this, my friends have a complete breakdown of everything I want, what I want, where I want it, how I want it. And we talk about it and we laugh and I send them like wish lists for things that I want at my funeral. Like if you guys, if you don't like find ways to approach it, they'll make decisions for you and then you'll have horrible flowers and nobody wants that. Nobody wants that at their funeral. Or or in a crisis. so Brian, thank you so, so much for being here this week. This has been such a great conversation. I hope you had fun. Good. Ryan Wynder: Right, right. I had great time. It was good. It I I felt like it was it flowed good and so we had a good conversation. I think again, like said, there's always things that we can take away from any kind of conversation like this and and hopefully there's something that each of the listeners can take away. And even if it's just like something as simple as like, okay, it's it's gonna be uncomfortable to have some of these conversations, but that's okay too, right? Because that's how we grow and that's how we prepare ourselves for things that aren't expected is just by having those difficult conversations. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Ryan Wynder: So Lisa Wilson: Yep. And if you're still struggling with having them, get some therapy and get some get some tools in your toolbox to get that help. Ryan Wynder: Right, right. Understand yeah. Understand why you're having a hard time having those conversations 'cause sometimes again about the curiosity, like maybe there's a reason why those conversations are so are so hard for you. So that's yeah. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: Yeah, absolutely. I love it. All right. So you guys remember to hydrate, roll your shoulders back, unclench jaw, right? And go high-five somebody. Thanks everybody.