Latest / Gunther Fehlinger Podcast / Founder of YOUROPE Arthur Krön: the EU Must Change Now- Ukraine, Taiwan & Enlargement

Transcript

Founder of YOUROPE Arthur Krön: the EU Must Change Now- Ukraine, Taiwan & Enlargement · Gunther Fehlinger Podcast

• 0:11
  Welcome to the Gunter Failing, a podcast.
• 0:13
  We are here actually developing quite fine with our progress on
• 0:17
  the X account. I'm very happy we are now at
• 0:20
  145,000 followers and also I'm not happy with our speed of
• 0:26
  progress at the YouTube channel. But 16,700 I'm already
• 0:31
  celebrating 2 weeks long. So please, we have many, many
• 0:35
  interesting podcasts on. I have made twenty of them
• 0:39
  actually in the last two weeks. Maybe too much some can say, but
• 0:44
  nevertheless we are in important times and it's important what we
• 0:48
  discuss here. And therefore, and as I always
• 0:51
  say, the podcast is developing with our guests.
• 0:54
  I'm very happy to have a young European reformer, a young
• 0:58
  gentleman who is really interested to drive European
• 1:02
  unity forward, and a friend of Andreas Crussel, as I
• 1:05
  understand. Yes, colleagues, actually
• 1:07
  colleagues and friends. We are learning everything about
• 1:10
  autocrone and also with half Chinese background.
• 1:14
  Taiwanese. Taiwanese.
• 1:15
  Very important. Better actually, because the
• 1:17
  Chinese are our enemies, unfortunately under communism,
• 1:20
  and the Taiwanese are our friends.
• 1:23
  So Arthur, tell us all your secrets.
• 1:25
  And first of all, we today will discuss in English whenever we
• 1:29
  are two Austrians, because I want English as the one unique
• 1:33
  language of European communication.
• 1:35
  And Arthur, as a student in Oxford, is very capable of this
• 1:39
  beautiful language. I guess so.
• 1:41
  I I think so, yeah. Let's see.
• 1:42
  Perfect. Let's try this experiment and
• 1:45
  Arthur grown. Introduce yourself.
• 1:48
  Thank you very much, Gunther. Actually, I think the first time
• 1:51
  we met, I'm not sure if you remember, was in 2017 in Kiev
• 1:56
  and. It was.
• 1:57
  I don't remember so. But I remember because you're a
• 2:01
  very memorable person, so of course I.
• 2:03
  Remember event. I don't know.
• 2:05
  I don't know why you were there, but there was I.
• 2:06
  Was there because I lived there so.
• 2:08
  That oh, you live here. I lived in here from 2016 to
• 2:12
  2020 with my family, trying to reform the institutions of the
• 2:17
  beautiful country, introduce flat tax and.
• 2:20
  Bring flat tax. Towards the European Union
• 2:23
  campaign for the euro, for Ukraine and many other things,
• 2:26
  of course, for NATO membership of Ukraine, but where?
• 2:30
  It was at a Advantage Austria event in a restaurant and then I
• 2:34
  went to one of your, I think flat tax round tables in this
• 2:37
  restaurant next to the Golden Gate in Kiev.
• 2:39
  Houston Hostess like round tables.
• 2:41
  And yes, yes, yes, this was the Austrian Committee for EU
• 2:45
  membership of Ukraine. Yes, exactly.
• 2:47
  The Austrian embassy hated it. It was very good.
• 2:50
  And we were just in a golden, golden pub, I think Golden Gate
• 2:54
  pub. Yes, it was next to this
• 2:56
  beautiful. Gate the Yaroslav, the the Wise
• 2:59
  and I had many, I had actually 53 meetings of the Austrian
• 3:03
  Committee for EU membership of Ukraine.
• 3:05
  And by the way, it's happening now.
• 3:07
  Oh, really? Yeah.
• 3:08
  Ukraine will join the EU. Yes, which is?
• 3:10
  The Austrians are getting so excitedly against it.
• 3:13
  Oh, not so far, because the Austrians are always the last to
• 3:16
  learn. Well, how have you come to Kiev
• 3:20
  at that? Event I was doing an internship.
• 3:21
  There at the Chamber of Commerce.
• 3:23
  No, I was working for this consultancy called the Smart Fix
• 3:27
  Agency and they were advising NGOs and they were also doing
• 3:29
  similar work with reforming institutions.
• 3:31
  They worked on the Prosoro project, which I think is a
• 3:34
  really, really, really great, great thing that's.
• 3:37
  Full transparency in the public procurement for Ukraine a
• 3:40
  wonderful. Success.
• 3:41
  Yeah. So that was a very good time and
• 3:43
  it was a introduction to Ukraine and I was actually very
• 3:46
  grateful. Learned a lot from that SO.
• 3:50
  We know from 2000. 17 yeah, we 10 years almost perfect, yeah.
• 3:55
  Yeah, and you also a friend of freedom.
• 3:56
  We met recently at Lucas Mandel's event.
• 3:59
  Yeah, I'm not a member, but I was interested so I so I went
• 4:02
  and had a look. So you're a friend of Ukraine, a
• 4:04
  friend of freedom, and a European reformer.
• 4:07
  But tell us the rest of your secrets.
• 4:09
  Yes. So I was born in Vienna, my
• 4:12
  mother's Taiwanese. My father is from Salzburg.
• 4:15
  I grew up most of my life here after high school.
• 4:18
  That's an amazing mixture. She was probably at the playing
• 4:22
  the piano or something. My mom, Why Salzburg.
• 4:26
  Taiwanese. Why is that happening?
• 4:28
  My dad was when he was young, really interested in the Chinese
• 4:31
  language and philosophy and he did a study stay in Taiwan.
• 4:35
  And that's that's how they met and my mother worked for Acer.
• 4:37
  Moved to the history of your existence?
• 4:39
  Yes. Perfect.
• 4:41
  And then I went to join the Army to do the one year volunteer
• 4:44
  program. And your frivolik?
• 4:46
  Very good, we can discuss about that one as well.
• 4:48
  Sure, you're in favour of defending your country.
• 4:51
  I am very much, otherwise I wouldn't be in the reserves and.
• 4:54
  Are you an officer now like me? No, but I'm training to be.
• 4:57
  So I you have to make some additional courses.
• 5:00
  Or have to some courses. But I go every year.
• 5:02
  So I try to be there every year and this summer I was training
• 5:06
  16 very motivated new recruits for the Austrian army, which
• 5:10
  made me very happy. It was a 5 weeks 5 intense weeks
• 5:13
  with 16 great guys. Very good guys.
• 5:16
  That's something I recommend do one year of Rivalik, one year of
• 5:20
  the Austrian army to be officer. This is what I have done.
• 5:23
  That's why I'm a over Lieutenant of the.
• 5:25
  Oh wow, I should have saluted. One.
• 5:27
  Yeah, you should, actually. That's true.
• 5:29
  But I'm from 1988 so you should salute me for my age already.
• 5:34
  Yes, I I salute you for your age and for staying so young.
• 5:38
  I tried to be in shape. Yeah, I can see your Instagram.
• 5:41
  I can lift 100 kilos on this old chest, yeah.
• 5:44
  Well, that, that's at least more than me.
• 5:48
  Very cool. Thank you.
• 5:50
  So afterwards I went to London. I studied economic history at
• 5:54
  the London School of Economics for three years.
• 5:56
  That's a bit left wing, but OK. Economic history, I actually
• 5:59
  think when you really study economic history, you don't
• 6:02
  become left wing, OK, because you kind of learn.
• 6:04
  But the LSE is like the centre left wing, Social Democratic
• 6:07
  kind of cradle of economics of the of Keynes.
• 6:11
  That's true. He is their their hero
• 6:13
  basically. I think is one of the founder of
• 6:15
  the Fabian Society and the LSE. That yeah, it was a long
• 6:18
  socialist tradition at at the Long school, let's call it.
• 6:21
  Social Democrat today, I don't think they are communist there,
• 6:25
  but they and they can't see any in in the tradition.
• 6:28
  Yeah, no, but I had a good time there and the economic history
• 6:31
  department is a great department with great professors.
• 6:34
  What was your speciality? What did you?
• 6:36
  I like, I like to study actually early modern history, so when
• 6:39
  the first states formed and where does growth come from and
• 6:42
  these kind of questions. I had the same interest and
• 6:45
  quest in my studies and I was writing about the difference
• 6:49
  between Austria and China. OK.
• 6:51
  And. What?
• 6:52
  What's Europe and China? Why did we so grow so fast, so
• 6:55
  early? And why the Chinese?
• 6:57
  Because we were at the same level of GDP in the year 1800,
• 7:01
  about during the Napoleon times, about if you see 1815, if you
• 7:05
  want to say Europe has jumped up enormously and China has
• 7:09
  stagnated. Yeah, it's the great divergent
• 7:11
  debate, right? It's a, it's a big debate, Yeah.
• 7:14
  So afterwards I went back to Austria.
• 7:16
  I worked for two years and then I got a scholarship to go to
• 7:20
  Oxford to do a research master's.
• 7:22
  So it's very research based, my own work and I'm I've been there
• 7:26
  since I. Recommend this experience.
• 7:29
  I really can, yeah. If you get a scholarship.
• 7:31
  If you're not, If you don't get a scholarship, I'm not sure
• 7:34
  because. It's a bit expensive.
• 7:35
  It's very expensive, very rich parents to pay for.
• 7:37
  That yes, and you don't get so much teaching.
• 7:40
  So you really like you meet with your supervisors, you have to
• 7:43
  kind of do your own thing. And when you have kind of
• 7:46
  classes once or twice a week, but a lot of it is your own
• 7:49
  reading and your own discussions with in seminars at conferences
• 7:53
  with your professor, which is very great.
• 7:56
  It gives you a lot of freedom and a lot of time to do other
• 7:59
  things at Oxford. Debate Club, are you there?
• 8:03
  In the Oxford Union. Yeah, there's some kind of, I've
• 8:06
  never been, I've actually been physically in Oxford.
• 8:09
  But the most famous thing of Oxford, in a way the student
• 8:11
  movement, is this famous debate club.
• 8:14
  Yeah, I'm, I'm it's no. Longer happening so.
• 8:16
  It's still very famous. They're having some issues.
• 8:19
  They've been. Probably with the Palestinians.
• 8:21
  Having some debates that I think quite questionable.
• 8:24
  I remember the only event that I went to was a debate with the
• 8:28
  proposition Taiwan's future lies in reunification with China.
• 8:33
  And first of all, they they use the word reunification, which I
• 8:36
  think is historically false. Absolutely.
• 8:39
  And they invited. Someone was never part of China.
• 8:42
  Never part of communist China. Yes, and only parts of the
• 8:45
  island were part of Qing Empire OR.
• 8:47
  Yeah, the Empire, but that's before 1911 or whatever kind of.
• 8:52
  We can get into that actually, Taiwanese history as well.
• 8:54
  But the debate was, I think, quite shameful.
• 8:58
  And they invited Victor GAO. He's, I'm not sure if you've
• 9:00
  heard of him, He saw this CCP propagandist and he went, he
• 9:04
  went, he went around this. Podcast we don't like communist
• 9:08
  has to be very clear. No to communist.
• 9:10
  He went around the room and he pointed at everybody saying
• 9:13
  before you die, we will have reunified Taiwan.
• 9:16
  No, he went around in Oxford, in Oxford, a very, very aggressive
• 9:20
  style of debating. But the Taiwanese side, I think.
• 9:23
  I tell to Mr. GAO he will never have Taiwan for sure, only over
• 9:28
  my dead body and the you aircraft carrier will defend
• 9:32
  Taiwan. Actually, there is no you
• 9:34
  aircraft. Carrier No.
• 9:35
  Soon. Yeah, but the Taiwanese side,
• 9:39
  they, they fought well. And I think at the end of the
• 9:41
  debate, most of the audience was convinced of the Taiwanese
• 9:45
  standpoint. You.
• 9:46
  Were on the Taiwanese side. I didn't debate.
• 9:48
  I was just in the audience. I was not invited,
• 9:50
  unfortunately, but it was, it was interesting.
• 9:53
  But I think the whole premise of the debate with a world
• 9:55
  reunification, I think it was highly problematic.
• 9:58
  But I'm all for open debate with everybody, you know, I think
• 10:00
  that's, that's fine. How did you get Stipendia a
• 10:03
  student loan for for going to Oxford?
• 10:06
  Is it from the Austrian state program or from the UK?
• 10:09
  Or did you apply because you are the smartest guy in the
• 10:12
  university? Or what is the story?
• 10:14
  I don't it, I don't know how it happened actually.
• 10:16
  So I I applied for some other scholarships which I didn't get,
• 10:20
  but this scholarship is called the Clarendon Scholarship and
• 10:23
  it's purely based on academic potential, whatever that means,
• 10:27
  and they just give it to you so. And you applied at Oxford or at
• 10:31
  Austria? Yeah, Oxford.
• 10:32
  So I applied to Oxford and it's funded by, I think Oxford
• 10:35
  University Press and some other donors.
• 10:37
  And when, if you're, if they think that you have great
• 10:40
  academic potential, then you get this scholarship.
• 10:42
  And you look very smart, but. I'm not wearing glasses like
• 10:47
  you, maybe I should. No more seriously, how to tell
• 10:51
  me, you know is often understood, misunderstood that
• 10:54
  these universities which are so expensive, they also use this
• 10:58
  revenue they have to provide opportunities for students which
• 11:02
  cannot afford it. And today take the brightest and
• 11:06
  smartest in on Stependia basis, which is I think a very good
• 11:11
  system to have. Yes, I think it's I think it's
• 11:14
  good. And this scholarship, they don't
• 11:16
  look at your financial situation, so they just look at
• 11:19
  your academic potential. It doesn't matter how rich you
• 11:21
  are actually if if you if they think you're worthy.
• 11:24
  They made you apply exactly to Oxford, or you tried it with
• 11:27
  many universities and then you got successful.
• 11:30
  Yeah, I applied to a few universities because I was
• 11:32
  working and but I was always interested in politics and I
• 11:36
  thought maybe I need some years, two years, one year where I can
• 11:40
  kind of collect my thoughts, do some deep thinking, do some
• 11:43
  writing and maybe some activism as well to kind of find my way
• 11:47
  into politics and find what what is the.
• 11:49
  Politics. What is the thing that that I
• 11:52
  want to do? I mean, politics is everything,
• 11:54
  right? Campaigning.
• 11:55
  What's the politics you want to be?
• 11:57
  I'm not sure actually. Speaking answer here in the
• 12:00
  media. No, no, no artist will call you
• 12:02
  afterwards. Abner Stalker, the Chancellor
• 12:04
  will call draft add to a groan. I'm not here to announce
• 12:09
  anything, but I wanted to have this time.
• 12:11
  There's the question, who will be the Austrian state president
• 12:13
  for 2028? If you want to choose this
• 12:16
  podcast to announce the candidacy, you're not old enough
• 12:20
  though. I'm too young.
• 12:20
  It is Sebastian Kurz, his age. Yes, maybe he will do it.
• 12:24
  Who knows? He doesn't accept my invitation
• 12:27
  to discuss here, but nevertheless.
• 12:30
  So you are for politics? Yes.
• 12:32
  So I took this time and I started thinking what to do and
• 12:36
  what about Europe and through in a long process of thinking and
• 12:40
  talking to different kinds of politicians, academics, I
• 12:43
  wanted, I wanted to start a project, right?
• 12:46
  And the initial idea was to do a journal, like a magazine or like
• 12:50
  a podcast. And I thought actually this,
• 12:53
  this will just it will stay in the echo chamber.
• 12:55
  You know, there's so many magazines about European foreign
• 12:58
  policy, even if it's kind of new and it has a new perspective.
• 13:01
  Mr. Schuster has a new magazine. Everybody has a new magazine, so
• 13:05
  we we had kind of long. European Voice.
• 13:09
  And we decided the best thing you can do to Europe, for Europe
• 13:12
  and for European unity is to talk to regular people.
• 13:15
  And that's how we came up with this Europe the Future is Europe
• 13:18
  project and it's a social media project and the in person
• 13:22
  discussion, debate and listening project.
• 13:24
  So this. Is this via Europe?
• 13:26
  No, no, it's the future is Europe and Europe spelled
• 13:29
  YOUROPE. So like Europe, it's your
• 13:32
  continent. It's our continent and everybody
• 13:34
  should be involved. There should be no one excluded
• 13:36
  from this project. We should discuss and talk to
• 13:39
  everyone and listen. What is the kind of Europe that
• 13:41
  people actually want? And it I think that Europe
• 13:45
  that's going to happen and it's going to emerge, it will be a
• 13:48
  Europe that's not, I think the Europe that is being imagined in
• 13:51
  Brussels. I think it's the.
• 13:54
  Eurosceptic underlyings here. No, I think the it's about the
• 13:58
  the imaginations that people have there and the imaginations
• 14:00
  that people have on the ground in Austria.
• 14:02
  And there's a big gap and you have to bring this together and
• 14:04
  you have to talk to each other that that's why we are
• 14:07
  travelling. Across Austria have not fully
• 14:09
  arrived in the European Union after 30 years.
• 14:12
  Yeah, I think there's a lot of scepticism, a lot of doubt, a
• 14:14
  lot of distrust. And you have to address this.
• 14:16
  You cannot say, you know, these people are stupid and we don't
• 14:18
  listen. You have to understand why.
• 14:21
  Why do they have these opinions? Why do they vote for parties
• 14:24
  that want to destroy Europe, You know, and that that's, I think,
• 14:27
  the main tough job that very few people want to do.
• 14:30
  And that's our mission at Europe, to really talk and
• 14:33
  listen. So explain me all your activism,
• 14:35
  because I saw that you write articles in famous German
• 14:39
  newspapers. Yes, in the preparation you sent
• 14:41
  me many links. That's impressive.
• 14:43
  I'll explain about that one. I mean, it's so that's the
• 14:46
  activism side to my European thinking.
• 14:48
  And then there's the thinking side and the writing side,
• 14:51
  right? So I try to sit down and think
• 14:53
  how can I narrate Europe in a way that's understandable to
• 14:57
  people and what needs to happen that this disconnect clauses.
• 15:01
  And I've written about several things I've written about first.
• 15:04
  The first article was need for European unity.
• 15:07
  I think that's pretty basic. We we.
• 15:08
  Totally agree by the way, but I've never written in this in
• 15:11
  which German or? So the answer said no.
• 15:14
  I said yes. Oh good, good.
• 15:16
  Yes, How to publish there? I want to publish as well.
• 15:18
  I, I just, I mean, I've wrote many articles and I sent many
• 15:22
  articles to different editors and I was rejected many, many
• 15:25
  times until you are simply. In Endurance, Endurance
• 15:28
  assistance and you apply to Oxford as many universities, you
• 15:32
  get accepted. You send your articles to answer
• 15:35
  that and you get accepted. Yeah, but it took a while, yeah.
• 15:38
  And you pushed hard to be in this podcast.
• 15:40
  Exactly which is a great SO. You can stop autocrone.
• 15:43
  No, you can't. Yes, right attitude.
• 15:48
  I like it actually. Yeah, I think it's just being
• 15:51
  able to live with rejection, you know, like it's fine if if they
• 15:54
  don't like it. Are you American?
• 15:56
  Are you, you're a Taiwanese, half Taiwanese.
• 15:58
  So we understand the situation because the Austrians, after two
• 16:01
  rejections, they would retire to the mountain, harm and stop and
• 16:05
  all activity and complain for the rest of their life that the
• 16:08
  world is bad to them. Well, I think that there's a
• 16:11
  lack of things to believe in at the moment.
• 16:13
  You know, there's if, if I, if I talk to my generation, for
• 16:16
  example, 20 years, 20 to 30 year old people, you know.
• 16:20
  I'm a boomer, what generation are you?
• 16:23
  Is it Gen. Z, Gen.
• 16:25
  Z Gen. I think so.
• 16:26
  What about the Gen. Z?
• 16:27
  We must understand that word I. Mean I'm born in 99 so I'm, I'm
• 16:30
  not sure how, what category I fall into, but you know, there
• 16:34
  is a big, big sense of kind of shame actually, when you talk to
• 16:37
  people about Europe, there's shame people feel humiliated by,
• 16:40
  you know, what the world is doing to us and the way we are
• 16:42
  treated on on the global stage. And how come?
• 16:45
  People. People have 20 trillions of GDP.
• 16:49
  Because we because there's a feeling of decline, because
• 16:51
  there's a feeling that things are getting worse instead of
• 16:53
  getting. Better when you walk for Vienna
• 16:55
  St. You're from Vienna just.
• 16:57
  I'm from Vienna. Yes, you.
• 16:58
  Walk and you see the €10,000 square meter price here and it's
• 17:01
  amazing hotels. We have about 55 stars hotel.
• 17:05
  Just but we we grew up. Where's the where's the decline?
• 17:09
  But I mean, the economic growth is slow, you know, since 2012,
• 17:13
  the productivity growth has been extremely low.
• 17:15
  And there are all these threats and, you know, we didn't know
• 17:18
  how it used to be. So we go, we, we grew up in this
• 17:20
  Vienna that you describe and we feel it's not getting better.
• 17:23
  And I think that. That when I came to Vienna in
• 17:25
  199089, after, yeah like became an officer in the army in
• 17:29
  Salzburg, in the mountains. I came to Vienna, the whole city
• 17:32
  was crumbling like troponton Start for master rigs, yes.
• 17:36
  But we brought prostitutes. Were in the streets.
• 17:39
  I didn't experience this. I was born after that there.
• 17:41
  Was no. The toilets were in the in the
• 17:43
  koloa. It's it's hard to appreciate
• 17:45
  this progress if you didn't. Experience Shampoo was a broken
• 17:48
  castle. Really, I, I can, I can, I think
• 17:51
  that's important that you say this so we, we can understand,
• 17:54
  but we, we grew up in the Europe that feels like it's in decline
• 17:58
  and that I think that that's a major issue.
• 17:59
  And there are there are people on the nativist right or even on
• 18:03
  the communist left that are exploiting this feeling of shame
• 18:06
  and humiliation. And they're saying, you know,
• 18:08
  you shouldn't feel ashamed. Be proud of white Europe, for
• 18:10
  example. You know, we should kick out all
• 18:11
  the immigrants because that's the kind of Europe we want to
• 18:14
  build. We want to have to go back to a
• 18:15
  glorious time. And because people feel that
• 18:18
  there's so little to hang on to, they buy into these narratives.
• 18:21
  And it's a major problem. And that's.
• 18:23
  That's why we want to the right of my enemy, Martin Selner, who
• 18:25
  fights me on it's. Crazy, yes.
• 18:27
  And what what I find so interesting is that the alt
• 18:31
  right that's called him alt right or nativist, right, that
• 18:33
  they've appropriated this European idea for themselves.
• 18:36
  You know, they're talking about Europe now like they're talking
• 18:39
  about Europe, but it's a Europe that's very dangerous and it's a
• 18:42
  Europe that we cannot, we should not accept and we have to fight
• 18:44
  against. Even they call themselves
• 18:45
  patriots these days. Yeah, they call themselves all
• 18:48
  kinds of things. And they're traitors, Yes, and
• 18:51
  waiting for Putin and then call yourself European patriot.
• 18:54
  It doesn't go. For yeah, it's awful.
• 18:56
  And one of the points I made in my last article actually, was
• 18:59
  that even to call them nationalists is wrong because
• 19:02
  they're working against their own nation.
• 19:04
  You know, yes, they are working against the interests of their
• 19:06
  own. So.
• 19:07
  If you call them nationalists, you're being too nice to them.
• 19:10
  Actually, they're anti nationalists, anti Europeans,
• 19:13
  anti patriots and they want to. I call them Russian assets or
• 19:16
  Russian. Yeah, many of them.
• 19:17
  Use the word traitor very deliberately and off onto it,
• 19:21
  yes. Yes.
• 19:22
  Hopefully nobody will chase me, but up to now I live fine.
• 19:26
  Yeah. So Arthur, you are very pro
• 19:29
  European man and you have published many of your articles.
• 19:32
  Tell me about the rest of your movements.
• 19:34
  Because I was called. I have to organize a
• 19:36
  demonstration for via Europe. I want to understand all these
• 19:40
  things because in my world there was always the European movement
• 19:43
  and the Pan European Union. This little world was very
• 19:46
  simple. They had a more centre left wing
• 19:49
  and one conservative pan European movement.
• 19:52
  This is the two movements I knew and they are still very active
• 19:56
  in Austria, the Arabesh Bibiagong European movement with
• 20:00
  the historic achievements of Schengen and all this great
• 20:05
  student movement to break the borders between Germany and
• 20:08
  France, and of course the Habsburg family.
• 20:11
  And I was also honoured to meet Otto and Karl.
• 20:14
  And so these were the two European movements.
• 20:17
  But now there's pools of Europe as we are Europe.
• 20:20
  There is Avaya Ropa. So many pro European movements
• 20:25
  as their answer to the decline. And in which are you active?
• 20:30
  I think I'm not active in We Are Europe.
• 20:32
  I started my own initiative and I think we have a slightly
• 20:35
  different approach to We Are Europe, for example, because
• 20:37
  we're not organising demonstrations or holding up
• 20:40
  signs. We talk to people.
• 20:42
  So our approach is conversation and listening.
• 20:45
  And we, we, you know, cut these conversations and post them on
• 20:48
  social media. And we also share our own
• 20:50
  perspectives. But it's more like a media kind
• 20:52
  of approach and the listening and learning approach rather
• 20:55
  than a demonstrating and, you know, shoving stuff into
• 20:58
  people's faces approach. And I think that my, my
• 21:02
  experience from my conversations is that it's better to listen
• 21:06
  1st and then talk to people, especially in times like these
• 21:11
  where trust in our institutions is so low.
• 21:14
  I think if you come to people with a kind of set of ideas and
• 21:16
  you, your job is to talk them down and then to explain,
• 21:20
  explain, you know, like this word, even explain, it's not the
• 21:24
  right approach. I think they have a lot to tell
• 21:25
  you and you have a lot to learn from them.
• 21:27
  And I think that. Oh man, you must be a
• 21:29
  politician. You have a great career All it
• 21:34
  is nice. I listen to you.
• 21:36
  Nobody, I mean everybody's talking.
• 21:37
  About You can run for this constituency if you want, but I
• 21:40
  can. But everybody's talking about
• 21:42
  it, but very few people are doing it, you know, and I, and,
• 21:44
  and because I'm not a politician, I can't do it
• 21:46
  because I, I'm not a member of a party.
• 21:48
  I don't have a party program. I should become.
• 21:51
  I'm not sure. I don't have a party program to
• 21:53
  sell to someone right now. My job is to talk about Europe,
• 21:56
  to listen to people's opinions and to maybe form and create a
• 21:59
  movement and create ideas from the ground up rather than from
• 22:02
  top to bottom. So what's your movement?
• 22:06
  The movement is this this approach, listening, learning.
• 22:09
  I have a specific name for this movement.
• 22:11
  It's called yeah, the future is Europe the future and Europe
• 22:14
  spelled YOU so U and then ROPE so followed on Instagram.
• 22:19
  We're online. Absolutely.
• 22:20
  We had we had very fast growth. So in the 1st 2 1/2 months we've
• 22:24
  reached 300,000 views in total with our videos.
• 22:27
  We have about 1100 followers now, I think 7000 likes.
• 22:31
  We're mainly active on Instagram.
• 22:32
  We'll do some collaboration, yes, share our face.
• 22:35
  Yeah. And hopefully be more famous.
• 22:38
  I think you have to share your fame with us first.
• 22:40
  You're very charming. You must.
• 22:42
  Be a politician. Thanks.
• 22:45
  And then, yeah, and then we'll see.
• 22:47
  I think it's going to grow very well.
• 22:49
  We're going to launch a Polish initiative now.
• 22:52
  So I have a very good Polish friend and she will start this
• 22:56
  same initiative, you know, talking to Polish people about
• 22:59
  Europe soon. And then hopefully, you know, in
• 23:01
  every European country you have an initiative like this, a
• 23:03
  forum, a space for people to talk and to articulate their
• 23:07
  visions for Europe. I think the the reason and you
• 23:10
  mentioned a very interesting point before about these
• 23:13
  different movements, right? So there was a pan European
• 23:15
  movement there and then there. Was it is still European
• 23:17
  president, Mr. Kluchik, if you're talking the past tense
• 23:20
  about him. No, it it was.
• 23:22
  There were only two. Right.
• 23:23
  And more or less the big ones. Yes, and now there's all this
• 23:25
  sprawling of, you know, other euro, but there's Martin Selner,
• 23:28
  who's somehow is also. There is like the spirit was
• 23:34
  negative also, but we had a nice fight on Twitter.
• 23:38
  Here. Yeah, I saw it allowed.
• 23:39
  Me to provoke him and he it's. Because he insulted you that I
• 23:43
  actually caught on to this thing that they're trying to.
• 23:45
  It's a campaign to expose pro European accounts as anti
• 23:50
  European if they don't support real my yeah.
• 23:52
  He called me Brussels Syop, yeah.
• 23:56
  I've never worked in Brussels. I've been there once a.
• 23:58
  Week I was there six years. OK, well, maybe fortunately I
• 24:01
  didn't pass the concourse or I'm not one of the new Commission
• 24:05
  elites on the happy salaries. I still have to fight on the
• 24:09
  ground level. Yeah, but I love Brussels.
• 24:11
  Actually I miss it. Yeah, maybe you go back in this.
• 24:14
  Yeah, no, now I have other plans.
• 24:16
  I want to make a European country and a NATO country out
• 24:20
  of my home country. Austria, Yes, which that's my
• 24:23
  lifelong mission. Noble initial.
• 24:24
  It's done. He shot there.
• 24:26
  Yes, of NATO's Austria mission. That's athletics.
• 24:29
  Yes and yeah. Don't forget about that.
• 24:31
  Yeah, that was like in Kiev. That was all all you talked
• 24:34
  about 2017. Oh, very good.
• 24:36
  Yeah, I'm on message. Yes, Lattelong.
• 24:38
  But I wanted what I wanted to say about these different
• 24:41
  movements, right? So why, why suddenly why there's
• 24:43
  so many movements now? I think it's because everybody
• 24:45
  realizes that this cannot continue like this.
• 24:48
  You know, we, we are being torn apart by foreign powers,
• 24:52
  divided. And if we don't do something,
• 24:54
  you know, the, the future we face is quite bleak
• 24:56
  economically, in terms of security, in terms of peace.
• 24:59
  But the problem is everybody's running against this wall, which
• 25:03
  are the institutions and the nation states, right?
• 25:06
  Because if you want to change something in Europe, it's very
• 25:07
  difficult. If you go to the Commission, you
• 25:10
  know, and you want a law introduced, they will say yes.
• 25:12
  But you know, Orban will never, will always have a veto and he
• 25:15
  will never approve this. If you go to your national
• 25:18
  government, they will say yes, you know, I will try to do
• 25:20
  something, but you know, the Commission will never like it or
• 25:22
  the Parliament won't like it or Victor Orban won't like it.
• 25:25
  If you go to your. Problem with Victor Vis off in
• 25:27
  April I guess. Hopefully, yeah.
• 25:30
  And if you go to your member of European Parliament, they say,
• 25:32
  yeah, I can give, I can make a speech for you, but I have no
• 25:35
  right of initiative, so I can't really propose a law on your
• 25:38
  behalf. So we're kind of stuck in this
• 25:40
  deadlock and it's very difficult to lobby for change.
• 25:43
  And there's also, I mean, that's a problem.
• 25:46
  It's not a problem of the EU necessarily.
• 25:47
  It's a problem of this construction between the nation
• 25:49
  States and the European Union. And even as I'm for more direct
• 25:54
  democracy, I'm not sure what what your position is.
• 25:56
  And there is this tool, I think it sums up the kind of absurdity
• 25:59
  of the European Union and the nation states is the European
• 26:01
  Citizens initiative. I'm not sure if you heard about
• 26:03
  that I. Wanted to do 1 because I started
• 26:06
  a people's petition in Austria and I only got 8000 people to
• 26:11
  sign for NATO membership in 2022.
• 26:13
  In Austria. In Austria.
• 26:15
  Then I looked at the instrument as a citizen initiative.
• 26:19
  Yeah, but you need to be in seven or eight countries.
• 26:21
  So it's crazy. So you have to difficult.
• 26:23
  First, you have to submit a proposal to the European
• 26:26
  Commission. Yeah, it was called the EU shall
• 26:28
  join NATO. It was my citizen.
• 26:30
  And the first observity is that you're submitting a proposal for
• 26:34
  approval to the body that you're petitioning, right?
• 26:36
  So those that you want something from there, they approve whether
• 26:39
  you can do the petition or not. If they approve then you have to
• 26:42
  collect 1,000,000 signatures and you have so.
• 26:45
  It's a bit too much for me. It's a phrase I load 1,000,000.
• 26:49
  And and then I. Have 155,000 accounts but I'm
• 26:52
  thinking some of them follow me just for fun and I'm not sure
• 26:56
  they always sign and then it's not a million.
• 26:58
  How to do a million? It's crazy.
• 26:59
  And then you you have certain thresholds that you have to
• 27:02
  reach in seven different European countries, which is
• 27:05
  another logistical nightmare. And then if you achieve all of
• 27:07
  that, you can submit your petition and you have to do it
• 27:10
  within 12 months. Yeah, you only have 12 months of
• 27:13
  time to do this. And you submit to the
• 27:14
  Commission. And then all the Commission is
• 27:17
  obliged to do is give you a response.
• 27:20
  That's it. So if they say, actually this is
• 27:23
  not within our authority, this is we don't like this, not, not.
• 27:26
  Necessarily continue tweeting and tagging or sort of underline
• 27:29
  in my tweets. So how?
• 27:31
  Yeah. So how are you?
• 27:31
  More cost efficient. Maybe yes, but so how are you
• 27:33
  supposed to feel kind of connected to this institution if
• 27:37
  if it's so difficult to get change from it and to voice your
• 27:41
  desires and your opinions and get the response?
• 27:44
  It's very, it's very difficult. And I think that's so you, you
• 27:47
  shouldn't be too harsh on people.
• 27:49
  I think, you know, when they are you're skeptics of the European
• 27:51
  Union because there are so many issues with it.
• 27:53
  And I think we are at a time now where almost all Europeans, and
• 27:57
  I think the opinion polls show this, agree that the stronger
• 28:00
  Europe is necessary. I think it's like 7080%
• 28:02
  everybody agrees. So, OK, but Otto, we have the
• 28:06
  highest opinion poll numbers for the friends of Putin in Austria.
• 28:10
  Yeah. So it's.
• 28:11
  A paradox, right? We are talking about France
• 28:13
  being taken over by this. I don't know this young guy who
• 28:16
  is Padela Padela. And in Italy they are running
• 28:20
  the show already. And in your country, the United
• 28:23
  Kingdom, it seems, Mr. It's not my country.
• 28:26
  Or where you stay at the moment. And we will discuss about Brexit
• 28:29
  very soon. But the situation is that it
• 28:32
  looks much more than this kind of of guys.
• 28:34
  It's of course Patriots on the Putin ticket and they are taking
• 28:38
  over. But isn't it a interesting
• 28:40
  paradox that on the one hand people agree that more Europe is
• 28:45
  necessary? I mean literally all of the
• 28:47
  opinion polls are in complete agreement at the same time
• 28:50
  people vote for these anti system parties.
• 28:53
  Why is that? Because I feel like, and that's
• 28:56
  what we had a discussion of before, the people want change,
• 28:59
  right? There's a deep desire of for
• 29:01
  change. People don't feel this progress
• 29:02
  from the Vienna of the 90s until now.
• 29:04
  People want change. I can tell you.
• 29:07
  And I believe. You.
• 29:07
  When I came at that time to Vienna, I didn't believe.
• 29:10
  It my my dad was your generation told.
• 29:12
  It was relatively developed already because the World War.
• 29:15
  It was destroyed and then it had to be rebuilt.
• 29:18
  But Vienna looked like a 19th century wrecked it down.
• 29:22
  Yes, so it. Was like that.
• 29:24
  Yes so but if if people feel stagnation and they're scared
• 29:28
  that their children are going to have a worse life than them
• 29:31
  themselves. That argument very often, but.
• 29:34
  Not to a problem then do. You have a worse life than your
• 29:36
  parents. Normally I'm, I'm, I have a
• 29:38
  great life. I mean, I'm very lucky person.
• 29:40
  I have to, I have to say this. Yeah.
• 29:42
  But I I know that many people don't have the kind of luck that
• 29:45
  I that I do. Have you seen the poverty in the
• 29:47
  streets and you go for Vienna? I mean, people are struggling,
• 29:53
  people are struggling with inflation, people are struggling
• 29:54
  with rent. And you can, you just cannot
• 29:57
  ignore this frustration. It's there and you have to
• 29:59
  address it and social. Democrat perspective in other
• 30:02
  grounds, No, it's not assessment.
• 30:03
  It's not a Social Democrat, it's just.
• 30:05
  When I go out, I rarely go out because I'm too old for that and
• 30:08
  I'm in the different lifespan. But I see a lot of young people
• 30:11
  eat, dining out in fancy restaurants, taking beers like
• 30:15
  there's no tomorrow, spending €50 a night.
• 30:19
  Yeah, but I mean, don't get me wrong, hard life.
• 30:21
  Life is life, life is good, life is good here.
• 30:23
  We are lucky to live in Austria. And especially, you know, when
• 30:26
  you, when you travel from Ukraine, for example, like I did
• 30:29
  by train, you pass, you pass, you pass through Ukraine, then
• 30:33
  you pass through Poland, Czech Republic and you arrive in
• 30:36
  Austria. You really feel, you know that
• 30:38
  what, what we have achieved here.
• 30:39
  I think it's it's something to be proud of.
• 30:40
  I agree. Young man in your education and
• 30:43
  status and health in Ukraine. He would not study in Oxford now
• 30:48
  and debate about the future of Europe, but be in the Eastern
• 30:52
  Front and command the platoon of Ukrainian soldiers and being on
• 30:57
  his drone, always constantly under attack in the freezing
• 31:02
  cold in the trenches of the Eastern Front.
• 31:05
  Yes, it it's and it gives you a very kind of deep perspective on
• 31:11
  life. You know when you're there and
• 31:12
  you talk to people who who have made this experience and that's
• 31:15
  you. Have been during the war back in
• 31:17
  Ukraine. Yes, I was there just before
• 31:20
  Christmas. Yeah.
• 31:21
  And for our project, and it was a fascinating and moving
• 31:27
  experience. Think about a lot.
• 31:29
  I was in first in the V and then in Turnopil and then in Kiev and
• 31:34
  then in Nipro. And then from Nipro I went.
• 31:37
  I went back to Austria. You went on your own initiative
• 31:40
  or you had some invitation? I went with Europe with this,
• 31:43
  wherever you, you have a with Europe initiative for our social
• 31:46
  media we had, we have a Ukrainian colleague who's from
• 31:49
  Turnipo and we is everything OK? Everything is OK, Just, you
• 31:55
  know, the situation is that our long podcasts are beyond the
• 32:00
  limitation of the storage of the old technology we're currently
• 32:03
  using. But we're going to upgrade our
• 32:06
  and we're going to compete with the media experts.
• 32:09
  It's important for for me that what I say about Ukraine is on
• 32:12
  video. I think you should.
• 32:14
  You want. This one is.
• 32:15
  Yeah, OK, good. Yeah.
• 32:17
  Anyway, I have, we have a Ukrainian colleague called
• 32:19
  Victor and he organised his trip.
• 32:21
  I visited veterans centres, you know of people treating wounded
• 32:26
  veterans and football team Internopio.
• 32:28
  So they have a football team for veterans lacking limbs, you
• 32:33
  know, feet or arms. I met several soldiers who are
• 32:38
  still active and several civilians.
• 32:40
  And our concept was to get questions from Austrians.
• 32:44
  So we travelled, you know, in Austria and we asked people,
• 32:47
  what if you, if a Ukrainian was standing in front of you, you
• 32:49
  know, a soldier or civilians, civilian, what would you ask
• 32:53
  them? And we got very interesting
• 32:55
  questions. And then we took those questions
• 32:57
  to Ukrainians and we asked them. And then on social media, we put
• 33:00
  them together. It's like this is kind of what
• 33:02
  we are trying to do, you know, connect regular people, get an
• 33:06
  emotion in for Europe and create this understanding that there
• 33:10
  are people 500 kilometres away from Vienna who are giving their
• 33:14
  lives for our security. I think it was a highly
• 33:17
  successful trip. And for me personally, I think a
• 33:21
  great learning. And I had, I had been to Ukraine
• 33:24
  before, also during the war because of some, because of
• 33:27
  private reasons. But yes, this, this ship in
• 33:30
  particular was moving because I had so many conversations with
• 33:33
  people and I mean, the, the soldiers, it's just such
• 33:36
  heroism. It it really is.
• 33:39
  March last year I was in Liverf that the superhumans.
• 33:43
  Yeah, it's. A great thing.
• 33:44
  For rehabilitation. And I met the Colombian guy who
• 33:48
  had no legs and to only one arm and he asked me for help to
• 33:52
  repatriate himself to Colombia. Yeah.
• 33:56
  And I couldn't help him and. I mean, it's Superhumans if the
• 34:01
  people listening out there, if if it's not there, if people are
• 34:04
  not comfortable donating to the military, for example, because
• 34:07
  it's weapons, some people aren't comfortable.
• 34:09
  You know, Superhumans is a great institution that's treating
• 34:12
  veterans and making prosthetics for for people.
• 34:16
  That donate to them and that's a good thing.
• 34:18
  Donate to superhumans in the woke Austrian disaster
• 34:22
  environment in which we are. It's not even allowed to collect
• 34:25
  money for weapons and because we are neutral.
• 34:28
  You cannot. As a citizen, you cannot collect
• 34:30
  money for for weapons. Yeah, you get no account from
• 34:33
  the you. Don't get the charitable status.
• 34:36
  No, you don't get the account in the banks.
• 34:38
  Really. Yes, it was a big scandal.
• 34:40
  Yeah, this is really. What do you think is Austrian
• 34:44
  when you look around and you say Austria is one of the few
• 34:47
  countries in the European Union which has not given any weapons
• 34:51
  towards Ukraine? I think it's self hurting.
• 34:57
  You know, we're hurting ourselves by doing this.
• 35:00
  I think it it's a bigger debate about neutrality.
• 35:04
  I will ask you in a second. Yes, let's talk about it because
• 35:06
  I think you have to. You have to, Yeah, you have to
• 35:09
  understand this in context, because Austrian neutrality is a
• 35:12
  product of the past, right? It's a product of of
• 35:15
  negotiations between Soviet Union, the United States and the
• 35:19
  victors of the Second World War. And Austria was imagined as a
• 35:23
  sort of buffer state between East and West.
• 35:25
  That was our role and people always think neutrality in
• 35:30
  itself protects you, which I think is a total misconception.
• 35:33
  Neutrality is usually. People like you who protect us,
• 35:36
  young officers who are ready to lead troops and platoons and
• 35:40
  their men into defending Austria.
• 35:43
  Yeah. Are you ready for that?
• 35:45
  You, you cannot be ready for it. I think you know.
• 35:47
  Because we, as an Austrian army are not ready for it.
• 35:50
  You can never be psychologically, personally
• 35:53
  ready for this, but you can only make a commitment that if it
• 35:57
  happens, you will do it. You know, that's, that's what
• 36:00
  you can make. That's the commitment that I
• 36:02
  have made. But you can never be physically,
• 36:06
  emotionally ready for it, I think.
• 36:08
  Yeah. But anyway, about neutrality.
• 36:10
  So in history, neutrality is always protected by someone,
• 36:13
  right? So neutrality is guaranteed by
• 36:16
  usually a great power. The Belgian neutrality was
• 36:20
  protected by the British our. It helped so much.
• 36:24
  Didn't help so much. Yeah, Austrian neutrality was
• 36:26
  protected by the Americans and the Soviet Union very much.
• 36:30
  It helped. It helped a lot.
• 36:31
  But we we're in a different situation now.
• 36:33
  Austria is no longer the buffer state, the edge of the free
• 36:37
  world. You know, Austria is in the
• 36:38
  middle of Europe and Europe is under attack by Russia and by
• 36:43
  some others also, unfortunately. And if Europe is under attack,
• 36:46
  Austria is under attack. And whether we say we are
• 36:48
  neutral or not, it doesn't make a difference because these
• 36:51
  attacks are happening. You know, we get, we get cyber
• 36:54
  attacks, we get sabotage attacks.
• 36:56
  We get all these hacking. You know, we get, we get the
• 36:59
  instrumentalization of migration or when, when the, when the
• 37:02
  Belarusians are sending over immigrants into Poland, they
• 37:06
  don't stay in Poland. They come to Austria.
• 37:07
  We cannot, we cannot shield ourselves from these attacks
• 37:11
  because we are in Europe. So neutrality, you can say
• 37:14
  you're neutral, but you're not neutral.
• 37:16
  I think that's, that's the kind of understanding that we have to
• 37:21
  create in Austria, that whatever we say or do, it doesn't matter
• 37:24
  because we are no longer neutral.
• 37:25
  We are in Europe and there's an enemy that is Russia that has a
• 37:31
  core interest of weakening Europe, you know, and I think
• 37:35
  that's that's the other thing that we need to say more when we
• 37:39
  look at Russia, for example, is that Russia is not a nation
• 37:44
  state like Austria. Russia is a relic of the past.
• 37:48
  It's a continental empire. Most of its territory they
• 37:51
  conquered in a colonial expansion in the 17th, 18th and
• 37:55
  19th century, the same time that we, you know, conquered half of
• 37:58
  the world. It was a colonial expansion.
• 38:00
  And then the only difference is that they they still hold on to
• 38:04
  these territories, right? It's a multi ethnic empire.
• 38:07
  They call themselves a federation, Soviet Union,
• 38:09
  whatever, but it's a multi ethnic continental empire and
• 38:12
  this brings certain characteristics with it.
• 38:15
  You know, it's it behaves differently.
• 38:16
  A continental empire behaves differently to a regular nation
• 38:20
  state. One reason one thing is that
• 38:23
  continental empires have different ethnicities, you know,
• 38:27
  within them, you know, different stories, different histories,
• 38:30
  different languages. And these different communities
• 38:33
  all have their own national dreams.
• 38:35
  The Chechens have the national dream, Pakistanis have the
• 38:38
  national dream. So this creates a pressure,
• 38:44
  right? If if the centre is not strong
• 38:50
  and not authoritarian and not suppressing these dreams, the
• 38:52
  country will fall apart. So a continental empire is
• 38:56
  usually and always actually an authoritarian state.
• 39:00
  It's, it cannot be a democracy because of, because if it's a
• 39:03
  democracy, people would secede. You know, I want to have my own
• 39:05
  state. I want to, Chechnya wants to
• 39:07
  join the European Union or whatever.
• 39:08
  Putin's nightmare, right? So this, they have to prevent
• 39:11
  this. They have to be authoritarian in
• 39:14
  the centre. The second thing is continental
• 39:16
  and Paris, they have to appear strong because that's their only
• 39:20
  narrative that holds the country together.
• 39:21
  If they're weak, it, it falls apart.
• 39:23
  If the centre appears weak, you have all these independence
• 39:25
  movements. Even Boris Yeltsin, you know one
• 39:28
  of the, I mean most pro western Russian leaders that this
• 39:31
  country ever had or this empire ever had.
• 39:33
  He had to invade Chechnya because the because he, the
• 39:36
  centre appeared weak. They saw an opportunity to have
• 39:38
  a better life outside of Russia and he had to start a war.
• 39:42
  So they are in continuous oppression, continuous war, and
• 39:45
  continuous expansion because their narrative of strength, it
• 39:48
  depends on expansion, always more people, more economies
• 39:52
  under their belt. And if the expansion stops, if
• 39:56
  they lose a war, it leads to a perception of weakness in the
• 39:58
  centre and the thing falls apart.
• 40:00
  So they're #1 always authoritarian #2 obsessed with
• 40:04
  strength and expansion. The other thing is that they
• 40:07
  want weak neighbors because they're continental states.
• 40:10
  The Americans have the luxury. They have two oceans.
• 40:12
  You know, the the Russians, they've always had Europe to the
• 40:15
  West and then China to the east. And if, if any of these two
• 40:19
  powers are strong, they feel extremely insecure because there
• 40:21
  are these huge borders, there are these internal pressures and
• 40:24
  there are these people always looking to the West, right?
• 40:26
  So they have to, they have to weaken their neighbors because
• 40:30
  of these long borders and because of their internal
• 40:33
  structure. And that's why, you know, it's a
• 40:36
  fund. Their interests are
• 40:38
  fundamentally opposed to ours. And they will always, they will
• 40:41
  always try to weaken us no matter what we do.
• 40:44
  And they have always done that. And now the new factor in this
• 40:47
  modern times is democracy, right?
• 40:49
  We have democracy in in Europe. We have free markets.
• 40:52
  And we are an example that this works.
• 40:54
  We, our lives are eternally better than the lives of the
• 40:57
  Russians. And the Russians know that.
• 40:59
  They look to us and they see, wow, you know, this could be my
• 41:02
  life. And that's the other basic
• 41:04
  threat that Putin faces, that people look to democracies and
• 41:08
  say, I want that. So what does he do?
• 41:11
  You know, he needs to create a situation in in Europe where
• 41:14
  people look there and no longer say, I want that when they say.
• 41:17
  That all the time. Yeah, when they say this is
• 41:19
  terrible, you know, and that's that's why a weakening of Europe
• 41:23
  makes Russia stronger. And we are part of this.
• 41:27
  As long as Austria is a democracy in Europe and living a
• 41:32
  good life, we are a threat to Russia.
• 41:33
  There is there is just no way out of this.
• 41:37
  All of this doesn't mean that, you know, Russia can, will
• 41:40
  disappear or we can make Russia disappear.
• 41:42
  It it. Maybe we can, maybe we cannot.
• 41:44
  Russia small again, is the slogan of my movement.
• 41:47
  Yeah, it it would be. With the free form of the free
• 41:51
  nations of post Russia, we say the only solution is Russian
• 41:55
  dissolution. Which which is will probably be
• 41:58
  the only long term erasure of this threat, right?
• 42:02
  It's the, it's the only way that that this empire, you know,
• 42:06
  loses. Its you are really a positive
• 42:09
  surprise for a young man in Austria.
• 42:11
  Thank you. I like you.
• 42:13
  Thanks. Thanks.
• 42:13
  Thanks Kinter. Your analysis is very good,
• 42:16
  Thanks. And your conclusions are
• 42:18
  excellent, Thanks. So I will ask you some
• 42:20
  questions. Go ahead.
• 42:21
  Do you support Austria joining NATO?
• 42:24
  I think, as I said, neutrality is is over in Europe and we have
• 42:30
  to find a solution for this. And NATO is kind of problematic
• 42:34
  right now because of what the Americans are doing.
• 42:36
  So it it's no longer the attractive proposition that it
• 42:39
  used to be. But Austria should definitely be
• 42:41
  part of a European military alliance, which would mean the
• 42:44
  end of virtuality. So Artur will go to Neos and
• 42:47
  work in the cabinet of Piate. I understand that already.
• 42:51
  OK, good. Yeah.
• 42:52
  Next question. What about Austria and sending
• 42:55
  Chechens refugees who are living in Austria, often with one limp
• 43:00
  only because they were cares amputated in the as a victim of
• 43:04
  the Russian aggression against the religion and when they
• 43:07
  wanted independence and they live here.
• 43:10
  And then the Austrians and young Chechens, their children,
• 43:13
  basically they sent them back to Russia and the Russians are then
• 43:17
  putting them in the military service to fight the to fight
• 43:22
  the in Ukrainians. What do you think about that?
• 43:29
  I I don't know anything about the situation.
• 43:30
  It's happening every day. Thanks.
• 43:32
  Thanks for telling me. On Sunday, for example, there is
• 43:35
  a demonstration of the Chechens in Austria against the forced
• 43:39
  repatriation of innocent Chechens who just don't have a
• 43:43
  passport. They are second generation and
• 43:46
  they will be sent to Russia. And the Russians, of course, say
• 43:49
  thank you very much at the airport.
• 43:51
  They're getting directly the that's.
• 43:53
  Against. Our orders.
• 43:54
  And no, that's within the law. That's the current policy of the
• 43:57
  Austrian government. But it usually if someone is a
• 43:59
  refugee and has asylum here and the their reason for fleeing to
• 44:04
  Austria is still is still existing, then that's kind of
• 44:11
  illegal, right? Yeah, it should be you.
• 44:13
  Have to investigate this. Yeah, I I didn't know this.
• 44:16
  That's obviously terrible. This is.
• 44:17
  Unfortunately, the reality of Austria today, and that's not
• 44:22
  good. I'm absolutely against it.
• 44:25
  And so this is what we need to change.
• 44:28
  Yeah, in Austria if we can. Yeah, that would be very good.
• 44:32
  Yes, yeah, if I need to look at this, I don't.
• 44:35
  Know, when it comes to the future of Russia, I'm educating
• 44:39
  41 new States and Chechnya to be free.
• 44:43
  Yeah. And I'm seeing some people say
• 44:45
  I'm a bit radical in my position, but Can you imagine a
• 44:49
  future where the Europeans would have recognized independent
• 44:52
  Chechnya in the 1990s and then defended it when Putin started
• 44:57
  this war in 99? And then we would have a much
• 45:00
  better reality because we were on the side of freedom and we
• 45:04
  had defended Chechnya as an independent country.
• 45:07
  Putin would have lost this war and not will be on the on the
• 45:11
  rise. And 25 years of history would
• 45:13
  have been much better. That that, that sounds
• 45:17
  beautiful. Yeah, many of the things I
• 45:19
  propose, but your generation will have to implement it.
• 45:23
  I think, yeah, I think it's a interesting point that you're
• 45:26
  making with with Russia as well, because I feel like we have an
• 45:31
  over reliance on our conventional deterrence vis a
• 45:34
  vis Russian. Our culture really deterred from
• 45:38
  aggression. No, it's our our concept is if
• 45:41
  Russia invades NATO territory, there will be a conventional
• 45:45
  response from us, right? It means war between Europe and
• 45:51
  Russia. And this is our sort of only
• 45:52
  policy to deter Russian aggression against us.
• 45:56
  And I feel, I feel that's not enough.
• 45:59
  I feel people will always be scared of a total conventional
• 46:04
  war with Russia. And if that's your only policy
• 46:07
  to deter Russia, it's not strong because Russia will always have
• 46:11
  this feeling that, OK, maybe, you know, European politics and
• 46:14
  European people will be too scared and they will prevent,
• 46:17
  you know, NATO from taking action.
• 46:19
  So they they will always be able to gamble that we won't respond
• 46:23
  to an evasion of the politics, for example.
• 46:26
  So I feel like we need to have more tools to deter Russia.
• 46:30
  And I feel, and there has to be more investigation to this.
• 46:34
  But I feel that using these minorities, for example, these
• 46:39
  desires for independence, even Russian, Russian interest in
• 46:44
  Georgia, for example, that's a huge deterrent.
• 46:46
  You know, if you, if you do aggression against politics, you
• 46:49
  will have 3 independence movements in your country.
• 46:52
  And that, that would be first of all, bigger threat to Russia.
• 46:55
  And it would kind of weaken the, the importance of this
• 46:59
  conventional deterrent, which I, I feel is kind of problematic
• 47:02
  for our societies still. So we need to explore new ways
• 47:06
  to counter Russia, sort of flexible ways that that that
• 47:10
  don't just all bank on one, one option.
• 47:13
  And I think that this this multi ethnic multinational nature of
• 47:19
  Russia is an asset for Europe that we can use to to deter
• 47:24
  Russia even even more effectively.
• 47:27
  And we need to think about this. And I mean, it's a long way.
• 47:30
  We don't have the intelligence capabilities yet.
• 47:32
  Maybe we have to work together with the Americans, but I think
• 47:36
  that that's definitely. When I was in high school, yeah,
• 47:39
  we were protected by American nuclear weapons and it was very
• 47:44
  unpopular and a lot of young people were against the
• 47:47
  so-called double track that was the rearmament of Western Europe
• 47:52
  with the Pershing 2. And it was the American rockets
• 47:56
  going to be stationed in Western Germany.
• 47:58
  And that was a huge protest movement from the so-called
• 48:01
  peace movement in the from 19828486.
• 48:07
  But it was decisive to end the Soviet Union because this arms
• 48:12
  race and the nuclear rearmament showed the Soviets that Reagan
• 48:16
  and Cole and Thatcher will not be submitting to Soviet
• 48:20
  domination of Europe. And that was really.
• 48:23
  That's why they are my 3 heroes. Yeah, but now we have only 100
• 48:28
  nuclear bombs left from the Americans in Western Europe and
• 48:31
  in Turkey and in Italy. And we are basically the nuclear
• 48:36
  balance in Europe has completely shifted in favour of Russia,
• 48:39
  Russia. So are you for nuclear
• 48:42
  rearmament of Europe? I think we have very, very few
• 48:48
  other choices if we want to stay free and outside of Russian
• 48:55
  blackmail. I mean, if you look at the look
• 48:57
  at the situation, Russians have I think 2500 nuclear warheads,
• 49:03
  The Americans roughly the same. But as you said in Europe not so
• 49:05
  many anymore. The French have I think 250 and
• 49:10
  this is a massive imbalance for for us.
• 49:12
  And if we cannot, we can, if we cannot show the Russians that we
• 49:18
  are strong and we are able to defend ourselves and retaliate,
• 49:23
  then we basically have to capitulate.
• 49:26
  And then any conversation, you know, rating to our previous
• 49:29
  point about with Russia, any negotiation in the future will
• 49:33
  be about how to best submit to Russia's aims, you know, how to
• 49:38
  best submit Europe and create this weak Europe that, that
• 49:41
  Russia wants. But as I said before, nuclear
• 49:44
  deterrence, conventional deterrence, they can, they
• 49:47
  cannot be the only tools that we rely on.
• 49:50
  Because in the end, you know, when there is a real, when the
• 49:53
  decision comes whether to retaliate or not, when the
• 49:56
  Russians issue a nuclear threat and you have to explain to your
• 49:58
  people for a town in, in Estonia, I, I'm willing to go to
• 50:04
  nuclear war with Russia. It's a very difficult thing to
• 50:07
  explain. And the Russians know how
• 50:09
  difficult it is. And they know that we are
• 50:11
  democracies and they know that we have to listen to people and
• 50:14
  they will abuse this and use this.
• 50:16
  So we have to find other ways to impose costs on Russia, other
• 50:20
  ways to hurt them so so we can better control their behaviour
• 50:24
  and hopefully become so strong that there can be a stable kind
• 50:29
  of situation in Eastern Europe where these countries are able
• 50:33
  to prosper and live in freedom. When there is now a massive
• 50:37
  American Armada assembling around Iran and after this
• 50:41
  terrible massacre, so on the 8th of January, the Iranian
• 50:45
  leadership has killed 10 thousands of people and the
• 50:50
  Americans have now this intention possible to intervene.
• 50:54
  And the Europeans are basically doing nothing, being on the
• 50:58
  sidelines completely. And some of them are in favour
• 51:01
  of a complaint about the international law.
• 51:04
  And then there will be certainly many Europeans who are going to
• 51:08
  protest against American liberation of the Iranians.
• 51:12
  Albert, are you on this this side?
• 51:15
  And what's your opinion about the current affairs around Iran?
• 51:20
  I think Iran, the Iranian regime, they are obviously an
• 51:25
  enemy of Europe. We can see this not only in what
• 51:29
  they say, but also in what they do.
• 51:31
  Iranian drones are killing Ukrainian civilians.
• 51:35
  They also fly into EU countries, into Poland.
• 51:40
  We can see this. We, we know what they're doing.
• 51:44
  They also support all kinds of radical Islamic initiatives
• 51:48
  inside our own countries. They, they, they are on the side
• 51:53
  of weakening Europe. They also see that democracy and
• 51:56
  freedom and prosperity as is their enemy.
• 51:59
  So they, they want to weaken us together with, with Russia and
• 52:03
  with China and with the North Koreans.
• 52:07
  So if the regime changes in Iran, that's a positive thing
• 52:12
  for us in Europe. It means an end hopefully to
• 52:17
  Iranian support to Russia. It means an end of all of this
• 52:21
  Islam, Islamist subversion of our societies, and it means
• 52:25
  probably a better Middle East. The issue that we have in Europe
• 52:30
  is that we cannot make sure that our interests are supported or
• 52:37
  protected in whatever happens after a military action by the
• 52:40
  Americans. We have, we don't have the the
• 52:42
  assets on the ground. We don't have the regional line
• 52:45
  structures to make sure that actually if the Americans strike
• 52:49
  and if they remove the regime, what happens after is not worse
• 52:53
  for Europe, you know, and the Americans have the luxury, you
• 52:56
  know, they can go in there, they can take out the ayatollahs and
• 52:59
  they can go back to America. You know, they have an ocean in
• 53:02
  between. Trump loves to say that they
• 53:03
  have a beautiful big ocean in between.
• 53:05
  They can go back and he can celebrate his victory.
• 53:08
  And we in Europe, we're going to have to deal with the
• 53:09
  consequences. We're going to have to deal.
• 53:11
  If there's a civil war in Iran, where are the refugees going to
• 53:14
  go? They're going to go to Europe.
• 53:15
  If there is an even worse regime that that blocks the Strait of
• 53:19
  Hormuz or the Red Sea, you know, our trade, our economies are
• 53:23
  going to suffer the most. So we have to make sure that we
• 53:27
  support, you know, this effort that the Iran regime is removed.
• 53:31
  And I'm happy that the RGC is now on the terrorist list.
• 53:35
  But we have to make sure that whatever happens, you know, our
• 53:37
  core interests are protected. And what right now we don't have
• 53:41
  these capabilities. We can just look at the
• 53:43
  Americans and I'll make a cross and then pray that whatever
• 53:46
  happens will be OK for Europe. And that's not that's not a
• 53:49
  continent that I want to live in.
• 53:51
  I don't want to have to make a cross and look on, you know, I
• 53:53
  want to be able to protect the people and to make sure that,
• 53:58
  you know, our neighborhood is safe and stable so we can
• 54:03
  prosper in Europe. Not so.
• 54:05
  Let's assume the Americans are now attacking and liberating
• 54:08
  around it will bind a lot of capacities of the American naval
• 54:12
  assets. Yeah, they have now already 2
• 54:14
  aircraft carriers. Luckily they have I think 7 or
• 54:17
  11 all over. But nevertheless, yeah, then the
• 54:20
  safety of Taiwan depends on American protection.
• 54:25
  Now the Americans are putting everything into the Middle East.
• 54:28
  Luckily, not everything. But what would happen if Mr.
• 54:32
  Chi, who's seemingly determined to integrate and reunify Taiwan?
• 54:38
  What will happen with Mr. Chi will attack Taiwan, let's say in
• 54:43
  March, after the end of the New Year celebrations in China?
• 54:48
  He probably sees that the campaign in Iran is not going
• 54:51
  very good for the Americans because there's more resistance,
• 54:55
  and then he feels emboldened to act and to attack Taiwan.
• 55:00
  Which European assets will be provide for the safety of
• 55:04
  Taiwan? I think if he does that, it will
• 55:07
  be a very bad decision. I think it will be a mistake for
• 55:10
  China to do this and I can explain why, maybe explain I.
• 55:15
  So I travelled to Taiwan almost every year.
• 55:19
  And every time when I'm there, I have I leave either, you know,
• 55:22
  happy and optimistic or depressed.
• 55:25
  Every time I have a different depression because it's a
• 55:29
  volatile situation. And politics in Taiwan is also
• 55:31
  very volatile. But this time I left more
• 55:34
  optimistic. I had good conversations with
• 55:38
  lawmakers there as well, and some, you know, civil society
• 55:42
  activists and people engaged in this effort to protect Taiwan.
• 55:46
  And I kind of took three things away from it.
• 55:49
  And the third one, unfortunately, is already shaky,
• 55:53
  three kind of positive signs. The 1st is that Taiwan has
• 55:57
  successfully managed to build a military alliance across the
• 56:01
  first island chains. I think that supported by the
• 56:03
  Americans, it, it, it is a strong alliance with, with
• 56:07
  Korea, with Japan especially. And the key, the key component
• 56:11
  is Japan, because the, the new Prime Minister has already said
• 56:15
  that an aggression of China against Taiwan would go against
• 56:19
  Japan's fundamental and national interest, which means this would
• 56:23
  allow the Japanese Navy and army to, to intervene.
• 56:27
  So this, this alliance changes China's calculation because they
• 56:31
  have to deal with different factors.
• 56:32
  They have to deal with the Japanese Navy, potentially with
• 56:35
  Koreans. So it makes the operation more
• 56:37
  complex and more difficult. So I was very encouraged by this
• 56:41
  and also by the level of contact that exists between Japan and
• 56:45
  and Taiwan, that's they talk all the time, they visit each other,
• 56:49
  you know, the military. So there's it's a real strong
• 56:51
  corporation that I had sort of underestimated before.
• 56:54
  The the second is Taiwan's kind of self strengthening.
• 56:59
  You know, it it, it depends on the attitude of a society when
• 57:04
  it comes to war is very important.
• 57:06
  And you've been to Ukraine before the full scale invasion.
• 57:10
  You know, the way people talked about the war and how people
• 57:14
  didn't want to believe it is a possibility, right?
• 57:17
  And many people still voted for some pro Russian people because
• 57:20
  they're afraid. You know, it it that society
• 57:23
  moves slowly. And in, in Taiwan, I always had
• 57:26
  that feeling as well. People are scared, people don't
• 57:29
  want to provoke. But this time I kind of
• 57:31
  encountered a different spirit. The way people in Taiwan, the
• 57:35
  politicians and these activists, the way they talked about China,
• 57:38
  it reminded me for the first time to the way people in
• 57:42
  Ukraine talk about Russia. And that is encouraging.
• 57:44
  So there's a clear understanding, OK, these are our
• 57:46
  enemies. They want to hurt us.
• 57:48
  And the Taiwanese government also has also, you know,
• 57:51
  initiated very important steps to strengthen Taiwan.
• 57:54
  They have increased the military service from four months, it was
• 57:58
  like a summer camp, two months, two months in summer you could
• 58:00
  do to one year. They've they're increasing
• 58:03
  military spending and they're protecting this information
• 58:06
  space. There's the most, one of the
• 58:08
  most popular social medias in Taiwan was Little Red Book,
• 58:11
  which is like insane name for, for social media.
• 58:14
  You know, it's like mouse and red book, right?
• 58:16
  It comes from China and the young people in Taiwan were
• 58:18
  using it, many of them. And it's now banned for some
• 58:21
  fraud reasons. So they banned this.
• 58:23
  So it limits the amount of influence that China can wield
• 58:26
  in Taiwan. And these steps show us and they
• 58:29
  show the world that, you know, Taiwan takes this threat very
• 58:33
  seriously. And I was also kind of informed
• 58:35
  about the offensive capabilities that Taiwan has.
• 58:37
  It's a key difference to Ukraine.
• 58:39
  And Taiwan has the missiles, it has the weapons to strike China.
• 58:44
  They can they can strike the whole kind of economic heartland
• 58:48
  of China in the South, which could impose huge costs on the
• 58:53
  Chinese economy and the Chinese people.
• 58:54
  And it's a it's a good deterrent.
• 58:56
  And that's something, for example, Ukrainians never had.
• 58:58
  They never had this arsenal of missiles.
• 58:59
  They strike very effectively. Now they have drones all made by
• 59:03
  themselves, but they didn't have this at the beginning of the
• 59:05
  invasion. So this is a a difference.
• 59:06
  And Taiwan has this and it, it's, it's a positive thing for
• 59:10
  Taiwan security. And the third thing that I, when
• 59:13
  I was there that was big was the US aid package, right?
• 59:17
  the US was going to supply eleven, $11 billion worth of
• 59:21
  sell $11 billion worth of weapons to Taiwan.
• 59:25
  You know, Taiwan was going to become the second biggest
• 59:30
  Haemars army. So they would have the second
• 59:32
  biggest, second largest amount of Haemars in the world if this
• 59:36
  aid package went through. We better need the hammers in
• 59:39
  Ukraine to destroy the Russian energy We.
• 59:41
  Also need the hammers in, in in Ukraine.
• 59:43
  And that's obviously the problems of that.
• 59:45
  Everybody depends on America because they don't they have a
• 59:48
  finite amount of resources. But this aid package is now
• 59:51
  being questioned in this conversation between Trump and
• 59:54
  Xi Jinping. So this is This is why I was
• 59:56
  optimistic. I think Taiwanese society is
• 59:57
  strong. I think this alliance in the
• 59:59
  region is strong. And I thought that the American
• 1:00:02
  support was strong. The biggest danger to Taiwan is
• 1:00:07
  not a direct invasion. I think it's a political
• 1:00:09
  subversion, right? If they, if they managed the
• 1:00:12
  Yanukovych scenario, you know, if they managed to use this fear
• 1:00:16
  and install the Chinese puppet as president, that is the end of
• 1:00:21
  Taiwan and probably the preferred option for China.
• 1:00:25
  The other thing is if, if these conversations between Trump and
• 1:00:29
  Xi Jinping continue and there's a Trump puts out a tweet or some
• 1:00:33
  some doubt about US support for Taiwan, which I think could
• 1:00:37
  happen, then the Chinese will use this to intimidate the
• 1:00:42
  Taiwanese. They will say, OK, America has
• 1:00:44
  left, you know, you're on your own, there's no one to protect
• 1:00:47
  you. And then they will use this to
• 1:00:48
  go to the first scenario, to the Yanukovych scenario.
• 1:00:51
  I think these two are extremely dangerous and the preferred
• 1:00:54
  options for China. The three military scenarios
• 1:00:57
  like beheading of the government, like Venezuela
• 1:00:59
  scenario, very difficult to do. The total invasion of Taiwan,
• 1:01:05
  unbelievable military endeavour, also very difficult to do and
• 1:01:08
  very costly. And 3rd, the blockade, which
• 1:01:10
  many people talk about now, I think it's also very difficult
• 1:01:13
  because basically you're cutting off trade for the whole world
• 1:01:16
  and you're cutting off 90%, for example, of Japanese exports and
• 1:01:20
  imports. So they will intervene.
• 1:01:21
  So this will draw everybody in. And the longer this lasts, the
• 1:01:24
  worse for China. So they will try to make it.
• 1:01:27
  They will try to make it short. So, but you know, just because
• 1:01:32
  the likelihood of success of a Chinese invasion or blockade is
• 1:01:37
  low, doesn't mean that, you know, the likelihood that Xi
• 1:01:39
  Jinping will do it is low. Because you know how these
• 1:01:41
  dictators think. First of all, they don't have
• 1:01:44
  always the, the full picture. They don't have the right
• 1:01:47
  information because especially Xi Jinping, maybe even worse
• 1:01:49
  than Putin, has purged everyone. So there's no one around him
• 1:01:53
  with, with his own brain anymore.
• 1:01:55
  Very, it's very dangerous. It's it's actually more
• 1:01:57
  dangerous. And if you had the correct
• 1:01:58
  information. And the second is that they're
• 1:02:00
  obsessed with their historic place.
• 1:02:03
  You know, they're obsessed with their legacy.
• 1:02:05
  They want to be immortal. They want the world to remember
• 1:02:07
  them forever. And then it doesn't, it doesn't
• 1:02:10
  matter whether you cause a big catastrophe or a big victory.
• 1:02:13
  As long as you're remembered and you have your place in history,
• 1:02:16
  you're fine. And that's that's what worries
• 1:02:18
  me that Xi Jinping will make this mistake and invade Taiwan,
• 1:02:22
  cause a huge war and destruction for for both sides.
• 1:02:26
  Shall we as Europeans and defend in Taiwan?
• 1:02:30
  Can we defend Taiwan? I I don't I'm not sure if we
• 1:02:33
  have the if we have the capabilities in my the ideal
• 1:02:37
  scenario for me is that us Europeans, we can take on the
• 1:02:40
  burden of Russia ourselves. We can be strong as Europeans
• 1:02:45
  and so that the Americans can focus their full mind on the
• 1:02:49
  Pacific and defend Taiwan. That's the the best thing we can
• 1:02:51
  do for Taiwan in Europe is to be strong for ourselves and to
• 1:02:55
  become independent of the United States in our defence.
• 1:02:57
  This is the best gift Europe can give to the Taiwanese people
• 1:03:01
  because then this will free up American resources for defence
• 1:03:06
  of Taiwan which are really needed.
• 1:03:08
  That's what I call all the time, that during the liberation of
• 1:03:10
  Iran, the European should mobilise our troops and our
• 1:03:14
  resources to liberate Crimea. That is the optimum scenario.
• 1:03:19
  Let's hope it will be implemented.
• 1:03:22
  And of course we should also recognise Taiwan.
• 1:03:24
  That's the other question. Do you think, shall we recognise
• 1:03:27
  Taiwan and so provoked Communist China?
• 1:03:30
  I think it's not necessary. Taiwanese, Taiwanese are not
• 1:03:35
  pushing for this either. The Taiwanese, the Taiwanese
• 1:03:38
  want the status quo to continue. You know, they're not obsessed
• 1:03:42
  with being recognised in the world.
• 1:03:44
  They want to have peace, they want to have freedom, they want
• 1:03:48
  to have democracy, they want to have prosperity and they don't.
• 1:03:52
  They're not looking for us to wave the Taiwanese flag.
• 1:03:54
  It's not their approach. They.
• 1:03:56
  I always do that on my Twitter account.
• 1:03:58
  Which of course. Much.
• 1:04:00
  I call Kosovo to recognize Taiwan and Taiwan to recognize
• 1:04:05
  Kosovo, Yeah. But they both have not done
• 1:04:07
  that. Unfortunately, I think, I think
• 1:04:09
  it will be great. I mean, I hope that someday that
• 1:04:11
  Taiwan can be recognized somehow, but at the moment it,
• 1:04:15
  it is a sort of unnecessary provocation for China because
• 1:04:19
  they, the Chinese have built up this narrative.
• 1:04:21
  They're slaves of their own propaganda, right?
• 1:04:25
  That Taiwan is not independent, that Taiwan is weak and Taiwan
• 1:04:27
  is part of China. They, they say it all the time.
• 1:04:30
  So when the provocation happens, they have to react irrationally
• 1:04:33
  strong because they have to protect this narrative, right?
• 1:04:37
  If you, if you say, if you say it's something too much, you
• 1:04:39
  know, you kind of become attached to it and you can't
• 1:04:42
  escape anymore. So if, if, if, if now, I don't
• 1:04:45
  know. Lithuania, for example, they,
• 1:04:46
  they made some closer ties with, with Taiwan and they invited
• 1:04:50
  some people over the Chinese. They've stopped all trade with
• 1:04:54
  Lithuania for one year because they are paranoid and they're
• 1:04:57
  slaves of their, of their propaganda.
• 1:05:00
  So we, I think the best solution for Taiwan or the best thing
• 1:05:04
  Europeans can do for Taiwan now is to be strong as Europeans, to
• 1:05:08
  defend themselves against Russia and allow the Americans to
• 1:05:12
  defend Taiwan from China and to pursue closer ties with Taiwan,
• 1:05:17
  but not in terms of recognition, but Economic Cooperation.
• 1:05:20
  I mean, Taiwan is a hub for the chip industry, for for AI.
• 1:05:25
  Even socially, you don't have more exchanges.
• 1:05:27
  Get Europeans travel to Taiwan to see what a beautiful place it
• 1:05:30
  is and what it has achieved. Yeah, and kind of cultural.
• 1:05:33
  Because I've never been to Taiwan and I'm interested is it
• 1:05:36
  similar level of civilization and development prosperity like
• 1:05:40
  in Austria or is it more modern than Austria I?
• 1:05:44
  Mean depends on how you define modern.
• 1:05:47
  I have a question for what do you think was Taiwan's economic
• 1:05:50
  growth last year? Actually, I didn't look up in
• 1:05:53
  the preparations, I'm sorry, but it was good, I guess.
• 1:05:56
  It was 7.3. Percent.
• 1:05:57
  Yeah, that's very good. Austria 0.
• 1:05:59
  Yeah. So you can see it's doing
• 1:06:01
  extremely well. It's growing faster than China,
• 1:06:03
  which I think is always great. What's the level of prosperity?
• 1:06:07
  I should have looked up actually.
• 1:06:08
  GDP. GDP per capita is, I think, 35
• 1:06:11
  to €40,000. Exactly like Austria, we are 55.
• 1:06:15
  But we are, it's, it's now richer than Korea and Japan in
• 1:06:19
  terms of GDP per capita. OK, good.
• 1:06:20
  So they've overtaken them. It's also richer, much richer,
• 1:06:24
  actually. Double the wealth because China.
• 1:06:26
  I see 15. 1000 it's double, double the wealth of China.
• 1:06:29
  Imagine with communism and faster communism the whole of
• 1:06:34
  China could be at 30,000 yes. GDP.
• 1:06:37
  Yes, that would give the world another 20 trillion of GDP in
• 1:06:43
  our 115,115 trillion GDP economy.
• 1:06:49
  Imagine that. Yes, would be would be so great.
• 1:06:52
  Shouldn't we try and work actively for freedom of China?
• 1:06:56
  We should we should stand up for freedom.
• 1:06:58
  We should stand up for the Uyghurs that are in camps in
• 1:07:02
  Xinjiang. We should stand up for the
• 1:07:04
  Tibetans that are oppressed. But my problem is always there's
• 1:07:09
  so little that Europe can do because we can't even protect
• 1:07:13
  ourselves. So we have to, we have to
• 1:07:15
  protect ourselves first. We have to be strong first and
• 1:07:18
  then one. Of the three major disasters or
• 1:07:21
  which has destroyed the world history so badly, and this is
• 1:07:25
  the 1917 October Revolution, the 1941 victory of the Communists
• 1:07:32
  over China. 49. 49 Yeah. And also then it was in 7930
• 1:07:37
  years later, the Iranian revolution of this extreme
• 1:07:41
  Islamists which took power. And this are the four, the three
• 1:07:46
  most terrible events of the 20th century with toxic consequences
• 1:07:52
  leading to so much disaster, especially in 49.
• 1:07:55
  It was possible to stop the Chinese Communist, but
• 1:07:59
  unfortunately the Americans did do very little to protect the
• 1:08:07
  they're called now nationalist Chinese in our communist, in our
• 1:08:11
  communist historic historic graphy, but basically the free
• 1:08:16
  China we have betrayed in 49. Was that a major mistake?
• 1:08:23
  Probably Chiang Kai Shek. I think Chiang Kai Shek himself
• 1:08:25
  also made many mistakes along the way.
• 1:08:27
  I think the United front with the Communists against Japanese
• 1:08:32
  was difficult. There are people saying, you
• 1:08:34
  know, the, the Japanese, they're just the flu, but the communists
• 1:08:38
  are the cancer. I think he he made some mistakes
• 1:08:42
  along the way. I think the Americans could have
• 1:08:44
  done definitely more. But for Taiwan, history has
• 1:08:49
  turned out so far very well for the people of Taiwan.
• 1:08:53
  I think one thing to also recognise about Zhankar Sheikh
• 1:08:55
  that he's, you know, not, not not a hero entirely.
• 1:09:00
  I think he made, he committed terrible crimes when he was
• 1:09:03
  dictator in Taiwan. He, his government murdered
• 1:09:06
  18,000 people in 1947 on three or four days.
• 1:09:11
  So they were brutal dictators. There was a personality called
• 1:09:14
  he had very close ties to Nazi Germany as well.
• 1:09:17
  And his son went there. So he's, he's a complex figure,
• 1:09:20
  but overall, you know, probably better than martyrdom.
• 1:09:25
  Absolutely. I have this book written read
• 1:09:31
  about this American general who was in the camp of of Chunkashek
• 1:09:37
  and they could have basically stabilized the front at the
• 1:09:40
  Yellow River and make South China independent.
• 1:09:45
  And it would have been a wonderful different alternative
• 1:09:47
  history, like in South Vietnam and South Korea, to have half of
• 1:09:52
  China in the free world in 49. But the Americans were not ready
• 1:09:57
  to confront Mao Zedong. Yes, the the Americans have
• 1:10:00
  always been realist in the core, I think.
• 1:10:03
  Realist. Egocentric.
• 1:10:04
  They have done. They have.
• 1:10:05
  Sacrificing Eastern Europe and sacrificing China to the
• 1:10:09
  Communist was probably the tragic mistake of the post World
• 1:10:15
  War order, but giving them two seats in the UN Security Council
• 1:10:20
  was also quite generous. Yeah.
• 1:10:24
  Yeah, it's, we have to, we have to see, you know, the world as
• 1:10:30
  it is. And the Americans, you know,
• 1:10:32
  they did great deeds for us. They liberated us from fascism
• 1:10:36
  and they protected us through the Cold War.
• 1:10:39
  But their limit is always their own national interest.
• 1:10:42
  And right now the national interest is being redefined and
• 1:10:46
  we are not so high on the order anymore on the list anymore.
• 1:10:49
  On the list of Witkoff. Yes.
• 1:10:52
  JD Wenz and Jared Kushner, Yeah, we are not very high on that
• 1:10:56
  one. Yeah.
• 1:10:57
  But you should really visit Taiwan.
• 1:10:59
  I will usually. If you go, let me know.
• 1:11:02
  I can organize a trip for you. Thanks a lot.
• 1:11:04
  They're great people. It's a beautiful country.
• 1:11:07
  It's wealthy, people are happy. It's an open society.
• 1:11:10
  You know when you go, when you travel from China to Taiwan, all
• 1:11:13
  the barbed wire disappears. You know, the closed doors
• 1:11:16
  disappear. These brutalist communist
• 1:11:18
  buildings disappear. You enter into, you can suddenly
• 1:11:21
  breathe again. You know, people are smiling at
• 1:11:23
  you. People are polite.
• 1:11:25
  People are welcoming to foreigners.
• 1:11:27
  It's a booming economy. Every time you go to Taiwan,
• 1:11:29
  something gets better and things change for the better.
• 1:11:34
  And the food is I mean to die for.
• 1:11:36
  It's the best food in in the world.
• 1:11:39
  Only on desserts. Austrians are better on
• 1:11:42
  desserts. I think we are we we.
• 1:11:44
  You are patriots all the world. The desserts very good when it
• 1:11:49
  comes to the question of comparing, because you said that
• 1:11:56
  Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be free and successful, and this
• 1:12:00
  is one of the reasons for the war.
• 1:12:02
  It's maybe very tempting to compare the analysis and this
• 1:12:05
  kind of comparison as well for China and Taiwan because Mr.
• 1:12:09
  Cheeses the freedom of the spirit, the success of Taiwan,
• 1:12:13
  and he sees maybe that this is the role model for many of the
• 1:12:17
  young people in China. They see over there Chinese
• 1:12:21
  people can be free and successful.
• 1:12:24
  And then he thinks, Oh no, this kind of island of freedom I have
• 1:12:29
  to crush. I think that's a good analysis
• 1:12:32
  from you. It's one of the big reasons why
• 1:12:34
  he's doing it. The the second big reason is
• 1:12:38
  this. It's a constructed obsession
• 1:12:41
  with Chinese unity. So as we said, we talked about
• 1:12:44
  before Taiwan only became part of the Qing Empire in 1683.
• 1:12:51
  Before that it was sort of rugged island, some fishermen,
• 1:12:54
  some pirates, and then Dutch and Spanish colonizers.
• 1:12:57
  It became the West Coast of Taiwan became part of the Qing
• 1:13:00
  Empire in 1683. The rest of the island was still
• 1:13:04
  unruled. So he, he had, but he has this
• 1:13:07
  idea that a strong ruler and the ruler that wants to enter
• 1:13:11
  history, he needs to unify the whole country.
• 1:13:13
  It's an obsession of China. If a dynasty in China.
• 1:13:16
  So he still thinks like the emperors, you know, the dynasty
• 1:13:18
  in China does not manage to unify the country.
• 1:13:21
  It's a failed dynasty and he doesn't want to be a failed
• 1:13:24
  dynasty. So it's, it's much more than
• 1:13:26
  this kind of pragmatic thinking, you know, that they are a threat
• 1:13:29
  to his power. It's deeply ingrained ideology,
• 1:13:34
  imperial ideology, and it's very hard to to get out of his brain.
• 1:13:39
  The Austrian chancellor has announced a visit to China.
• 1:13:42
  Yeah. What's your message for him?
• 1:13:44
  What you would advise Mr. Stalker when he goes to China to
• 1:13:48
  supposedly improve our trade relations at this sensitive
• 1:13:52
  moment? Do you think it's a good thing
• 1:13:54
  to do? Should he better visit Taiwan or
• 1:13:58
  What's your call for Mr. Prime Minister, Counselor of Austria?
• 1:14:03
  I'm personally saying he shouldn't go, he should further
• 1:14:07
  go to Taiwan and not to China, because submitting to China just
• 1:14:13
  because we are angry on Trump is absolutely in the wrong policy.
• 1:14:17
  And Europe should not sign any agreement in trade with the
• 1:14:21
  Chinese Communist at this moment.
• 1:14:23
  But should further strengthen our alliance system with the
• 1:14:28
  Southeast Asian countries, with the Philippines and with
• 1:14:32
  Indonesia and with Malaysia. These are important countries
• 1:14:37
  for us and he better visit them and then submitting to the
• 1:14:41
  Communist Emperor of China that she.
• 1:14:45
  Yeah, I think. I think, I mean, it's for me.
• 1:14:47
  If he wants to go, it's fine, he can go.
• 1:14:50
  But I think. He will probably not make it
• 1:14:52
  dependent on our approval here this podcast.
• 1:14:55
  But I mean, it's OK, you know, it, it, I'm not angry at him,
• 1:14:58
  you know, for, for going to China.
• 1:15:00
  I just think it's a, it's a strange, it's a strange thing we
• 1:15:03
  are trying to do. So it's a, we are kind of pissed
• 1:15:06
  off with Americans and we want to, we want to piss them off
• 1:15:09
  back, right? So we think if we go to China,
• 1:15:12
  it will make them feel uncomfortable and they will
• 1:15:14
  suddenly respect us more, which is a totally wrong, the totally
• 1:15:18
  wrong idea because you're just showing how weak you are.
• 1:15:21
  You know, like one daddy says no longer and no longer supports
• 1:15:24
  you, You have to go to the next daddy.
• 1:15:26
  I think it's a, it's actually a play of a, of a weak continent
• 1:15:30
  and of a, of a weak Europe. I don't, I don't like this it,
• 1:15:33
  it doesn't send the right signal for me.
• 1:15:34
  You know, it doesn't make me feel proud to be European.
• 1:15:38
  I think on trade there is just there.
• 1:15:40
  Maybe there will be an agreement, but there's very
• 1:15:42
  little chance for something substantial emerging because the
• 1:15:46
  interests are so different. For Canada, it's different
• 1:15:49
  because they sell oil, right? And China needs oil.
• 1:15:52
  China produces goods, Canada needs good.
• 1:15:53
  It makes sense for for us, you know, we don't sell energy to
• 1:15:57
  China. What we sell to China are our
• 1:15:59
  cars, you know, our consumer products and our industry sells
• 1:16:03
  to China and China through unfair trade practices, through
• 1:16:07
  subsidies and all the all the rest of you know about it.
• 1:16:10
  They've created artificially cheap prices.
• 1:16:12
  So a liberation of trade between Europe and China would just mean
• 1:16:15
  that we get dumped more effectively with cheap Chinese
• 1:16:20
  products produced under sold under their market value.
• 1:16:24
  And that's so under these conditions, it's very difficult
• 1:16:28
  to make a good trade agreement. If, if we say, if we exclude
• 1:16:31
  cars, for example, but we say solar panels, fine.
• 1:16:34
  You know, we don't, we don't really have a substantial
• 1:16:36
  European industry of solar panels.
• 1:16:37
  We can get a few solar panels from China power our energy
• 1:16:40
  transition, it's fine. But the total liberation of
• 1:16:43
  trade or a kind of substantial trading agreement between Europe
• 1:16:45
  and China that the, the conditions are just very
• 1:16:48
  difficult. And of course, we can never
• 1:16:49
  forget that China is supporting Russia in its war against us.
• 1:16:55
  And as long as they do that, relations will always be
• 1:16:58
  difficult. And you can see this, I mean,
• 1:17:00
  people travel to China all the time.
• 1:17:01
  Everybody goes there, but very little comes out of it.
• 1:17:04
  And that's because the interests are still diametrically opposed.
• 1:17:08
  China doesn't really respect Europe.
• 1:17:10
  China wants the war against Europe by Russia to continue so
• 1:17:13
  that the Americans are tied up there.
• 1:17:15
  So you can travel as much as you want.
• 1:17:18
  The question is, what can you get out of it, right.
• 1:17:20
  And I agree with you that this trading agreements with
• 1:17:24
  Southeast Asia, with India and with Latin America, these are
• 1:17:27
  very important things that we have to pursue more vigorously.
• 1:17:30
  For the same reasons, I declare China the enemy on my ex
• 1:17:33
  account. Some people were upset, but
• 1:17:35
  realistically, after four years of war and the support for
• 1:17:38
  China, for Russia and Iran, we have to accept the fact that
• 1:17:42
  they are in the enemy camp and we have to act accordingly.
• 1:17:46
  One of the things that the European Union has done
• 1:17:48
  recently, which was really remarkable, after 25 years, we
• 1:17:52
  have concluded a free trade agreement with Mercosur.
• 1:17:55
  It's already ratified now in the Argentinian Parliament.
• 1:17:59
  The the European Parliament actually has tried to postpone
• 1:18:03
  it. But in March it will be put in
• 1:18:05
  power by Osila von der Leyen, who is very strict on that one.
• 1:18:08
  And she takes no nonsense and she will implement that one.
• 1:18:12
  And also she has concluded A historic agreement with India.
• 1:18:16
  And as I have now this impression, she's really going
• 1:18:21
  by country, by country. She's going to Australia now to
• 1:18:25
  conclude that one and the French are basically sidelined now and
• 1:18:29
  their protectionism. Unfortunately, Austrian
• 1:18:32
  protectionism similar like Austrian xenophobia and
• 1:18:35
  anti-Semitism is running high and we are simply always on the
• 1:18:40
  wrong side of history when it comes to Ukraine, weapons for
• 1:18:43
  Ukraine, when it comes to trade, when it comes to America, when
• 1:18:49
  it comes to China, we are basically making everything
• 1:18:52
  always wrong. This is a kind kind of
• 1:18:54
  interesting analysis I think, and I don't know exactly why I
• 1:18:59
  tried to change that since 30 years, but seemingly it goes
• 1:19:03
  always contrary to my wishes, which I think are based on
• 1:19:07
  rationality and facts. So my question is, do you and
• 1:19:10
  your generation also support free trade agreements of the
• 1:19:14
  European Union, which in core is very much the essence of the
• 1:19:18
  European Union? Because in core, legally we are
• 1:19:22
  a regional trade integration body not notified to the World
• 1:19:25
  Trade Organization under the GUT agreement.
• 1:19:27
  This is the essence of what we do.
• 1:19:29
  And unfortunately it was never explained to the Austrian public
• 1:19:33
  and seemingly some people here in Austria, I think that
• 1:19:36
  Mercosur is an enemy system or something.
• 1:19:40
  While behind it, it's the beautiful state of Brazil,
• 1:19:43
  Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay, which I think most people in
• 1:19:48
  Austria would agree are very friendly and nice countries.
• 1:19:51
  And after we have basically decoupled from in the tyranny of
• 1:19:55
  Russia, it's now time to open to the rest of the world a little
• 1:19:58
  bit. But if you ask the Farmers
• 1:20:01
  Association of Austria and then you see the world very
• 1:20:04
  differently. And add to explain me a little
• 1:20:07
  bit, why is the lack of information in Austria about the
• 1:20:10
  European Union, about our trade agreement and why are we so
• 1:20:15
  protectionist? What's wrong in Austria?
• 1:20:20
  That's a big question. I think economic history, if you
• 1:20:22
  study, if you take any lessons from economic history, is that
• 1:20:25
  countries that trade are richer and countries that don't trade,
• 1:20:29
  it's one big lessons. If you trade, if you trade and
• 1:20:31
  integrate overseas with with your partners and allies, you,
• 1:20:35
  you will be. Sadly, we cannot send the whole
• 1:20:38
  Austrian population to VU Vienna or to LSE or to Oxford, but
• 1:20:43
  actually they have missed some basic lessons of economy here in
• 1:20:47
  Austria. I think, I think that my
• 1:20:50
  generation, we actually most of most of us, I think we support
• 1:20:55
  this, these trade agreements because but not so much from a
• 1:21:00
  from a economic perspective, but more from a sort of geopolitical
• 1:21:04
  perspective, right? That there's this feeling we
• 1:21:06
  have no friends anymore. You know, we are alone in this
• 1:21:09
  world. We are under threat from
• 1:21:10
  everywhere. So we need new partners and
• 1:21:13
  because of, because of this awareness, I feel most of most
• 1:21:17
  young people in Austria, we, we support free trade.
• 1:21:21
  There are always, there are always these particular
• 1:21:24
  interests, you know, the farming interests, which are of course
• 1:21:26
  important environmental interests, which are also
• 1:21:28
  important that, that have an, I think outsized influence in
• 1:21:32
  Austrian politics because of our party structure, because it, it
• 1:21:36
  has this sub organizations and stuff like this.
• 1:21:38
  So I feel that some interests are over represented in, in our
• 1:21:43
  politics and the interests of the majority often are not
• 1:21:46
  heard. And the other thing I think also
• 1:21:48
  in the European Parliament, our many, many of our MEPs voted
• 1:21:51
  against Mecosur for stalling Mecosur.
• 1:21:55
  And I feel like they they feel like in the Parliament, in the
• 1:21:57
  European Parliament, they can just do whatever they want and
• 1:22:00
  represent their interests because nobody cares what
• 1:22:01
  happens in the European Parliament anyway, right?
• 1:22:03
  That's not so good. It's not good and it's not good
• 1:22:06
  for the parliament, it's not good for European democracy.
• 1:22:08
  So I think maybe if, you know, if on the line was now forced to
• 1:22:12
  cancel this agreement and we could say in the next election
• 1:22:16
  for European Parliament that you that because of these ME PS, we
• 1:22:21
  don't have this trade agreement. Now, I think maybe people would
• 1:22:24
  actually understand that the parliament that their vote for
• 1:22:27
  the European Parliament matters. But because actually Vanderline
• 1:22:29
  can't just overrule it. You can see how how little power
• 1:22:32
  the the parliament has. So it's just some posturing.
• 1:22:34
  You know, I represent the interests of my political party
• 1:22:37
  and those interests that are represented in my political
• 1:22:39
  party and I vote based on that. And the people don't care
• 1:22:43
  anyway. I think that's that's that's the
• 1:22:45
  dynamic that's happening. But I've in my generation, I
• 1:22:48
  feel there's a strong desire for Europe to look to the world to
• 1:22:51
  find new friends and conclude trade agreements and other kinds
• 1:22:55
  of agreements. Let's talk about EU enlargement,
• 1:22:57
  Arthur. Chrome May.
• 1:22:59
  I may I go around the corner quickly?
• 1:23:01
  Yes, you can make. Can we take a break?
• 1:23:03
  Definitely countries of Ukraine and Moldova and we have Turkey.
• 1:23:10
  And now I ask you, Arthur, how fast and which countries do you
• 1:23:15
  want to see in the European Union?
• 1:23:19
  I want to see Ukraine in the European Union as soon as
• 1:23:22
  possible. Very good. 2027 the plan now.
• 1:23:28
  Would be great, yes. The Austrian establishment and
• 1:23:30
  the Austrian media has heavily criticized the EU Commission for
• 1:23:34
  this proposal. Why?
• 1:23:38
  I think, again, there are some very specific interests embedded
• 1:23:43
  in Austrian politics that are opposed to this.
• 1:23:45
  One of them is the agricultural sector.
• 1:23:47
  And I mean, you have to deal with this challenge, right?
• 1:23:50
  The Ukrainian agriculture is so much more productive than
• 1:23:53
  Austrian agriculture. They can produce at much lower
• 1:23:56
  prices and they will drive many of our farmers out of business,
• 1:24:00
  you know, if we are integrated. And that's, I mean, that's just
• 1:24:03
  a fact. And I think that's where a lot
• 1:24:04
  of this scepticism comes from. And we know how strongly
• 1:24:08
  represented the farming interests are in the party of
• 1:24:11
  our chancellor. So it makes sense that there is
• 1:24:14
  some scepticism. But you have to address this,
• 1:24:16
  you have to find a solution. And obviously we shouldn't let
• 1:24:19
  all of our farmers go out of business, right?
• 1:24:21
  So you have to. It's a huge challenge to work to
• 1:24:24
  integrate Ukrainian agriculture into the European Union in a way
• 1:24:28
  that does allows Austrian, the Austrian countryside to continue
• 1:24:33
  prospering. That's a problem we can solve,
• 1:24:36
  you know. So I I would suggest rather than
• 1:24:38
  blocking everything, we actually work on a solution where Ukraine
• 1:24:43
  can be integrated and our farmers also can continue
• 1:24:46
  producing and live happily. Very good.
• 1:24:48
  So you're in favour of Ukraine in the European Union, Moldova.
• 1:24:53
  I think so too. I think Moldova is one of these
• 1:24:57
  states on the front line. You know, they deal with, with
• 1:24:59
  the Russians constantly. They know actually how to defend
• 1:25:03
  the information space very effectively.
• 1:25:05
  They had a very successful election recently.
• 1:25:07
  We can learn a lot from them. I think they they have both
• 1:25:10
  countries have great potential and should be part of the
• 1:25:14
  European and I'm, I'm not sure about the details of Moldova by
• 1:25:17
  when it is possible. But the most important thing and
• 1:25:20
  I think we constantly fail to do this is to give hope to people
• 1:25:25
  to give a perspective, have a plan.
• 1:25:27
  You know that people they are fighting for freedom know that
• 1:25:30
  they're fighting, you know, with hope, right.
• 1:25:33
  If you, if, if, if we tell Ukrainians now that there's no
• 1:25:36
  prospect of them joining the EU, then imagine what that does to
• 1:25:41
  their motivation, you know, enduring days and nights of
• 1:25:46
  constant Russian bombing. So we have to understand our
• 1:25:49
  responsibility, this European Union that we have created, this
• 1:25:52
  promise of peace and freedom and prosperity.
• 1:25:54
  It has immense power and people cling on to IT.
• 1:25:57
  People take risks because of this hope.
• 1:26:01
  And there's, there's nothing we can change about that.
• 1:26:03
  We because we are doing well, because we are an exceptional
• 1:26:06
  place and we represent hope to people.
• 1:26:10
  And if we destroy that hope, it might be comfortable for a short
• 1:26:13
  time because then maybe we can, we don't have to do a difficult
• 1:26:16
  work of integrating people countries into the European
• 1:26:19
  Union. But in the long term, it's going
• 1:26:20
  to destroy our security because right now we have the power with
• 1:26:25
  this idea to transform dictatorships and corrupt
• 1:26:28
  countries under Russian influence, to transform them
• 1:26:31
  into allies and friends just because of this idea of freedom.
• 1:26:35
  It's part of the drive, right? And if we lose this, then not
• 1:26:39
  soon thereafter, we'll be surrounded by enemies again.
• 1:26:42
  And we don't. We don't want that.
• 1:26:44
  Montenegro is fighting to be in the European Union as 28th
• 1:26:48
  Member State in the year 2028. Yeah, are you in favour?
• 1:26:54
  Yeah, if that if, if they finish all the conditions and they're
• 1:26:57
  ready, then why not? They are long ready for that
• 1:27:00
  already. You are the expert on this
• 1:27:01
  subject. I don't know so much about
• 1:27:03
  Montenegro. Albania in.
• 1:27:06
  They're also doing great work in, in their integration, right?
• 1:27:08
  They're also advancing. They're advancing well.
• 1:27:11
  And it's, as I said before, the danger is that this idea loses
• 1:27:15
  credibility. You know, that people don't work
• 1:27:18
  for, work against corruption, work against Russian influence,
• 1:27:21
  work against, I don't know, foreign actors stationed in
• 1:27:25
  their territory. They stop doing that because
• 1:27:27
  they lose hope in their European path.
• 1:27:29
  If that happens, we will have shot ourselves in our own knee
• 1:27:33
  pretty badly because then, yeah, we, we, our neighbors will not
• 1:27:38
  be so nice to us anymore. North Macedonia is waiting since
• 1:27:42
  2005 as AEU candidate for membership.
• 1:27:45
  It's now 21 years EU candidate. Yeah.
• 1:27:50
  Should they don't be in the EU? What?
• 1:27:51
  What is the main reason they're not progressing in in in this
• 1:27:55
  process? Because the EU.
• 1:27:57
  Because of Austria. Because Macron, I would say
• 1:28:00
  Macron is complete failure. Yeah, I think.
• 1:28:03
  I have agreed on peace with the Greeks and with the Bulgarians
• 1:28:08
  and they have made accepted all the conditions.
• 1:28:11
  But then the Macron stabbed them in the back and blocked the
• 1:28:16
  enlargement in 2019. And also the Americans pushed
• 1:28:20
  them then into NATO. That was very good.
• 1:28:22
  They are NATO ally. But now the Bulgarians are
• 1:28:24
  making complications and they have to put the Bulgarian
• 1:28:27
  minority into the constitution. And so the Macedonians are
• 1:28:31
  waiting and they're calling for utter crown.
• 1:28:34
  Help us. Yeah, yeah, I think I to some
• 1:28:38
  extent, you know, I can understand this idea that if, if
• 1:28:41
  your club becomes too large, you cannot make decisions anymore.
• 1:28:45
  But that's not a problem of these countries seeking to join
• 1:28:48
  the EU. It's a problem of the EU, right,
• 1:28:50
  That we, we have a structure where every member state has a
• 1:28:53
  veto, you know, and everything goes very slowly.
• 1:28:56
  So in that structure, obviously it it's a valid argument to say
• 1:29:01
  if you if you accept too many countries into your club, you
• 1:29:05
  kind of blocking yourself. But I think that's the wrong
• 1:29:08
  approach. You know, we need AEU with
• 1:29:11
  institutions that can make decisions and incorporate new
• 1:29:15
  countries and grow the European Union and keep alive this
• 1:29:20
  European idea that has been so powerful in the last decade.
• 1:29:24
  So yes, I'm, I think they should join, but we also need to do the
• 1:29:27
  difficult work of creating institutions in Europe that are
• 1:29:31
  able to make decisions quickly and are not blocked by
• 1:29:34
  individual leaders. Bosnia wants to join the
• 1:29:38
  European Union and be Foster and help.
• 1:29:40
  It became EU candidate country two years ago.
• 1:29:43
  But unfortunately there's Russians, the Serbs and some in
• 1:29:47
  Bosnia from the Republic of Sobska want to break Bosnia
• 1:29:50
  apart because they have this opportunity.
• 1:29:54
  Because we are so slow. Should we not include Bosnia
• 1:29:57
  faster? Yeah, I think especially for
• 1:29:59
  Austria, I mean, we have, we have, we are totally exposed to
• 1:30:04
  this part of the world, right. We have strong relations.
• 1:30:07
  We are dependent on security and stability in the Balkans.
• 1:30:11
  It should be in our interest to create the prosperous Balkans
• 1:30:14
  that is integrated and stable and democratic because it will
• 1:30:16
  benefit us directly. I mean this from beginning from
• 1:30:20
  refugees all the way to our banks, insurance companies.
• 1:30:23
  I mean this is this is for it's buff baffling if as you say we
• 1:30:27
  are blocking this enlargement because it is it kind of it's
• 1:30:31
  one of long the long standing national interest of Austria to
• 1:30:35
  have a stable and prosperous Balkans.
• 1:30:37
  The Republic of Kosovo has celebrated 18 years of
• 1:30:40
  independence This week was very important.
• 1:30:43
  Austria was always a great supporter of Kosovo's
• 1:30:45
  independence and has facilitated actually this process
• 1:30:49
  successfully. But now we are a bit slow and
• 1:30:52
  we, our guys, get over his medals from Wujich and from
• 1:30:56
  Serbia, and we are somehow attracted by the glamour of and
• 1:31:02
  have lost the way in the support of the Republic of Kosovo.
• 1:31:06
  Kosovo wants to be in the European Union and it's still
• 1:31:09
  only potential candidate country.
• 1:31:11
  Is it not time to change that? As I need to look at the
• 1:31:15
  details, but it would be great if, if Kosovo can be more
• 1:31:18
  integrated. Yeah, I don't, I don't know the,
• 1:31:20
  the specifics of what, what they have to do to qualify, some
• 1:31:24
  said. Countries will not recognize
• 1:31:26
  Kosovo like they said, Russian occupied Republic of Slovakia,
• 1:31:31
  even our friends in Romania. Spain I think as well.
• 1:31:34
  Spain is exporting its internal divisions and fragilities on the
• 1:31:39
  European level as everything they see they recognize as
• 1:31:43
  Catalonia or the Basque, and then they are blocking
• 1:31:46
  everything else. It's a little bit astonishing
• 1:31:49
  for me, this level of arrogance from our Spanish friends.
• 1:31:54
  Yeah, I don't. I need to.
• 1:31:56
  I'm not an expert on Kosovo, of course, but I met, I saw the
• 1:32:00
  president speak in ALPAC and I thought she was quite impressive
• 1:32:04
  and she said that's good, a great.
• 1:32:06
  Everybody should be. Yes, she's a great communicator
• 1:32:09
  and she is very vocal about, you know, being part of the sort of
• 1:32:13
  democratic alliance and part of the West.
• 1:32:15
  Part of this West and democratic alliance, Serbia, unfortunately,
• 1:32:19
  is not. They're always choosing China,
• 1:32:22
  Russia, Iran as their great friends.
• 1:32:25
  And they're still pretending to want to join the European Union.
• 1:32:28
  And they are still not ready to recognize Kosovo and not to join
• 1:32:32
  NATO. And they are working with all
• 1:32:34
  the wrong people. And I'm heavily criticizing this
• 1:32:39
  situation. But still, in Austria, everybody
• 1:32:41
  says, oh, let's invite the Serb friends into the European Union
• 1:32:46
  and what then? But I think there's hope.
• 1:32:50
  I mean, there is this student movement in, in Serbia.
• 1:32:54
  They, they are fed up with this kleptocratic regime and they are
• 1:32:58
  fed up with Russian influence and they want, you know,
• 1:33:02
  democracy and prosperity. So this Europe is alive as an
• 1:33:07
  idea for for many people. It gives people hope in Europe.
• 1:33:11
  And it's a great asset that we have to use because it creates
• 1:33:14
  allies for us and it creates friends.
• 1:33:16
  The Serbian students, unfortunately doing procada,
• 1:33:19
  have not shown a single European flag during the protest, and
• 1:33:23
  everybody in the world was waiting for that, but they were
• 1:33:27
  not ready for that because it was seemingly too controversial.
• 1:33:30
  Yes, they're being strategic. Dominated.
• 1:33:32
  Yeah, Yeah, I never like this strategic thinking.
• 1:33:36
  I can understand this. EU not, but it's good.
• 1:33:39
  It's good that this is happening and it shows that there is
• 1:33:41
  energy, you know, for better, better Serbia.
• 1:33:45
  And we should be happy about that.
• 1:33:48
  We. Yeah, I think.
• 1:33:50
  The Turkish president has recently said that he wants to
• 1:33:54
  join the European Union and I have rejected that.
• 1:33:57
  And I called only once he's gone.
• 1:34:00
  And the Ekrem Mehmetolo Mehmetoloco, he the guy he has
• 1:34:05
  actually jailed, now he can Turkey can ever think about
• 1:34:10
  joining the European Union. How do you think that we can
• 1:34:13
  integrate Turkey when the opposition leader is jailed and
• 1:34:17
  Mr. Erdogan has his complicated foreign policies, adventures in
• 1:34:22
  Syria and everywhere. I mean, I think to be part of
• 1:34:29
  Europe, you have to 1st consider yourself European, right?
• 1:34:33
  You have to be able, you have to stand up and say I'm European.
• 1:34:36
  You know, I'm part of this history.
• 1:34:38
  I believe in these values. I believe in this democracy.
• 1:34:41
  You know, I believe in Rule of law.
• 1:34:44
  I am connected to the traditions and the history of this
• 1:34:48
  continent. And I don't feel, I don't really
• 1:34:51
  see this happening in Turkey. And if you don't do that, if
• 1:34:54
  you're, if you live by values totally opposed to ours, then
• 1:34:58
  integration, obviously it's very difficult.
• 1:34:59
  So I think Europe is, is a powerful idea, but it's not
• 1:35:04
  universal, you know, it, it requires attachment to, to this
• 1:35:10
  continent and a willingness to live by its values, it's
• 1:35:14
  standards and to defend it as well.
• 1:35:17
  And if you look, if you look at Turkey, I don't see any
• 1:35:20
  indication, I see very few indications of this happening.
• 1:35:24
  They, they're very close to Russia.
• 1:35:27
  I was in Istanbul airport. All the flights, you know, from
• 1:35:29
  there go going to Russia, all the Russians in Austria going,
• 1:35:33
  going back home via Istanbul. I see, you know, what they're
• 1:35:38
  doing in the, in, in, in the Middle East as well.
• 1:35:40
  And they, they see themselves as a, as a middle power, you know,
• 1:35:43
  balancing out between different sides.
• 1:35:46
  It it, it's hard for me to to see them as a, as a part of of
• 1:35:51
  of Europe, You know, it, it just.
• 1:35:53
  If they join, they must join fully, and that's also true for
• 1:35:57
  the United Kingdom. How is the debate in the United
• 1:36:00
  Kingdom? You're now living there for two
• 1:36:02
  years. Tell me because I want them to
• 1:36:05
  rejoin and to adopt the euro, to join Schengen and to be fully in
• 1:36:09
  in 2029. This is my answer.
• 1:36:12
  Now Mr. Kirstama prefers to go to China and we even discuss
• 1:36:16
  about Canada joining potentially the European Union.
• 1:36:20
  But the debate about the UK joining, rejoining the EU is not
• 1:36:25
  really picking up steam and unfortunately Nigel Farage is
• 1:36:30
  picking up steam and we will most likely have the end of Kia
• 1:36:33
  stammer and to the national Farage having to run the United
• 1:36:39
  Kingdom ever further away from the European Union.
• 1:36:42
  So don't you see the need to really convince the British to
• 1:36:46
  come back and to join the European project fully and help
• 1:36:50
  us with the costs of integrating Ukraine and the Balkans?
• 1:36:53
  And the stability has huge costs obviously, and we could need the
• 1:36:58
  UK which which is such a vital power when it comes to defence
• 1:37:02
  and when it comes to political process in the world.
• 1:37:05
  But now they are not seemingly considering rejoining the
• 1:37:11
  European Union. Or what's your information at
• 1:37:13
  the Crown in Oxford? It's a, it's a kind of absurd
• 1:37:17
  situation in the UK because if you look at every opinion
• 1:37:20
  polling, there's a vast majority now believing that Brexit was a
• 1:37:25
  mistake. You know, most English people,
• 1:37:28
  British people believe that Brexit was wrong, but there is
• 1:37:31
  no energy to reverse this decision.
• 1:37:34
  So these two things are kind of there's no political energy or
• 1:37:37
  no political pressure to rejoin. It's very, it's, it's very, very
• 1:37:41
  strange for me and very difficult to understand why so
• 1:37:44
  many people can understand. And they feel the problems, you
• 1:37:47
  know, they feel the economic problems, they feel all these
• 1:37:50
  things that Brexit has caused and they understand it was a
• 1:37:53
  mistake. But there the movement to rejoin
• 1:37:56
  is small, people are not, are not energized.
• 1:38:01
  Actually, it's quite, it's quite sad to see.
• 1:38:05
  I agree with you that the UK is vital for Europe, especially for
• 1:38:09
  security. I mean, with intelligence, also
• 1:38:12
  with the Navy, there's, there's no European power that has the
• 1:38:15
  same kind of global reach. Also for Arctic security.
• 1:38:18
  They are vital and we have to find ways to work together with
• 1:38:20
  them. But they need to get themselves
• 1:38:22
  to to do this and they need to get themselves to create this
• 1:38:25
  energy. I cannot.
• 1:38:26
  I mean, I'm not the British, right, But yeah, I think there
• 1:38:31
  are positive things happening. I think Starmer is doing many,
• 1:38:35
  making many right moves in regard to communicating more
• 1:38:39
  with the European Union. Also restarting the Erasmus
• 1:38:42
  exchange, which I think is very important because it gets young
• 1:38:44
  people connected and creates a sort of European spirit, which I
• 1:38:48
  think is very important. Also in the coalition of the
• 1:38:50
  willing. These are all positive things,
• 1:38:52
  but I just don't see the the drive for every for rejoining
• 1:38:57
  for the UK, rejoining Europe. And it's hard to understand.
• 1:39:00
  I think one reason is a political system because they
• 1:39:03
  have these, they have these first past the post systems
• 1:39:06
  where one, like in America, one constituency votes for one
• 1:39:10
  member of Parliament and there are these swing, swing
• 1:39:13
  constituencies in the north of England and that the Labour
• 1:39:17
  Party depends on to win the election.
• 1:39:19
  And there's a contest and a contest between the right and
• 1:39:22
  the left for these constituencies.
• 1:39:23
  And these are all Brexit constituencies.
• 1:39:25
  So they are, they are worried that if they make any steps
• 1:39:28
  towards rejoining then they will lose these constituencies.
• 1:39:31
  So it's a kind of political. Losing people anyhow because
• 1:39:35
  Reform is certainly out there polling them now.
• 1:39:38
  And Nigel Farage tries to present himself as the Maloney
• 1:39:42
  style figure who is a reasonable Conservative.
• 1:39:46
  And I think Keir Starmer is nowhere to be found, neither on
• 1:39:50
  the agenda nor on the political setting nor on the opinion
• 1:39:54
  polls. And so if he doesn't come with a
• 1:39:57
  good idea out of his head of political wonders, I think he
• 1:40:01
  will be going down in history as a one term Prime Minister.
• 1:40:06
  I, I, it's certainly looking like that and there's not, I
• 1:40:10
  mean, there's reform, but I'm not sure if you've, if you've
• 1:40:12
  seen on the right of reform, there is not a new political
• 1:40:16
  party in the UK. Even worse, even worse because
• 1:40:18
  they think reform is too far in the center.
• 1:40:22
  And it's a it's a kind of Martin Selner style remigration party,
• 1:40:27
  Very dangerous. That's my enemy.
• 1:40:30
  It it I mean but the positive. Thing.
• 1:40:33
  For a positive thing yeah he's not it's not him he's another
• 1:40:35
  guy I don't want to I don't want to promote the view now but they
• 1:40:38
  the positive thing is that they that this might divide you know
• 1:40:41
  the vote for reform this this could be maybe some hope but
• 1:40:44
  it's I mean it's. I'm for Richard, please welcome.
• 1:40:48
  Please, Arthur, focus on that in Oxford.
• 1:40:51
  Get your British friends to focus their energy.
• 1:40:55
  We, we have a, we started a Europeanist society in Oxford.
• 1:40:59
  So we, we invite, we invite the people from the European Union.
• 1:41:03
  Lucas Mandel also visited us. That's the first time I met him.
• 1:41:07
  Yes. So we, we, we have different
• 1:41:10
  MEPs coming and some European policy makers as well.
• 1:41:15
  And we have a try to have a pro European debate in England, in
• 1:41:20
  Oxford and people are really, really interested.
• 1:41:22
  So we get huge audiences coming and looking at these talks and
• 1:41:26
  these conversations. So there is there is some
• 1:41:28
  energy. I hope Lucas had the power and
• 1:41:31
  the courage and the balls to call for rejoining.
• 1:41:35
  But maybe not. He's an Austrian politician and.
• 1:41:38
  I was sure if he did that he. Gave he gave a good.
• 1:41:41
  Speech. He gave a good speech.
• 1:41:42
  Very good. Best regards, Speech.
• 1:41:44
  Yeah. So let's come to the conclusion
• 1:41:46
  of our two hour sessions where I ask Arthur Grown about Taiwan,
• 1:41:52
  Ukraine, EU enlargement, free trade and the future of the
• 1:41:57
  European Union, how to motivate the young people of Europe to be
• 1:42:01
  patriots for Europe and then of course, to build a stronger,
• 1:42:06
  prosperous Europe. What's your call?
• 1:42:09
  What's your conclusion? Where do you see the next years?
• 1:42:12
  How can we make Europe strong, some successful, attractive
• 1:42:17
  again? In effect, actually it is.
• 1:42:20
  But how can we communicate it better in order to convince the
• 1:42:23
  young people to believe in this common dream of a united Europe?
• 1:42:30
  Well, thank you so much Gunter. This was these were great to
• 1:42:34
  ours. I think to to conclude, you
• 1:42:38
  know, we, the world that we are looking at or the future that we
• 1:42:43
  are looking at is a very dangerous one.
• 1:42:46
  I think the world is getting colder, it's getting more
• 1:42:50
  difficult. There are great powers around
• 1:42:53
  that that want to divide and, and destroy us.
• 1:42:56
  And there's only one option, you know, for us Europeans, if we
• 1:43:00
  want to advance, if you want to have progress, you want to have
• 1:43:03
  hope and change, and that is Europe.
• 1:43:06
  We need to work together. So we need to make sure also on
• 1:43:09
  the pro European side, which I think is extremely, extremely
• 1:43:12
  important. I can't stress this enough that
• 1:43:14
  we are more open, that we listen more that we that we don't just,
• 1:43:18
  you know, post something on social media, but we have these
• 1:43:21
  long conversations. You know, we sit down with
• 1:43:23
  people, we travel in our nation States and we talk and we listen
• 1:43:29
  so that we can articulate a European vision that is able to
• 1:43:36
  attract and include all Europeans.
• 1:43:38
  I think that's that's very, very, very important.
• 1:43:41
  I think the basic level is there.
• 1:43:43
  Everybody understands that Austria alone has no future and
• 1:43:47
  Austria and Europe can be great and extremely prosperous, free
• 1:43:53
  and democratic. So we we all know this.
• 1:43:55
  It's just where do you get the political pressure to reform the
• 1:44:00
  institutions we currently have to become more effective, to
• 1:44:03
  become faster, to better address the needs of the people, to hear
• 1:44:07
  the voices of the people. That's that's the job we have to
• 1:44:11
  do. It's about opening up the
• 1:44:13
  European idea. It's about bringing new people
• 1:44:15
  in. And it's about the working, not
• 1:44:17
  just for protecting what we have, but to create a better
• 1:44:20
  Europe. I think Europe has to be the
• 1:44:21
  message for change, not the message of the status quo.
• 1:44:25
  I think that's that's what I would say.
• 1:44:26
  I think with this message, we can be successful together and
• 1:44:29
  we are we at Europe. Follow on Instagram YOUROPE We
• 1:44:36
  had Europe try to do exactly that.
• 1:44:38
  I work for that and so far we've had great success and I hope
• 1:44:42
  that much more is to come. Thank you very.
• 1:44:45
  Absolutely, much more will come. We have now had two hours of
• 1:44:49
  discussion for the future of Europe to revive the spirit of
• 1:44:53
  94 of the referendum where 66% of the Austrians voted yes to a
• 1:44:59
  European Austria. Some were basically not sure
• 1:45:02
  what to do. They voted against it,
• 1:45:04
  unfortunately, but it was such a benefit for Austria to join, to
• 1:45:09
  make us fool Europeans after the Cold War.
• 1:45:13
  We have won and we could basically then join the European
• 1:45:16
  Union. But the big mistake were we were
• 1:45:19
  not joining NATO and so we were not feeling fully responsible.
• 1:45:24
  And I hope that things will change now with the generation
• 1:45:27
  of Atacron, the men who decided to go to the army to defend his
• 1:45:32
  country as a patriot and then to campaign for a united Europe
• 1:45:37
  from Oxford to Ukraine. Thanks a lot that you came to
• 1:45:40
  this podcast and all the best in your mission for United Europe.
• 1:45:44
  Thank you, Gunther. Thanks a lot.