Latest / Construction ESOP Collective / From Apprentice to President: Building a Construction ESOP Culture with Bobby Sigmon

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From Apprentice to President: Building a Construction ESOP Culture with Bobby Sigmon · Construction ESOP Collective

• speaker-0: Culture is what I feel like builds the Aesop, not Aesop builds the culture. So if you don't have you know, and everybody can talk about culture and what it is and and who believes it and and and all of those things, but you know, if you realistically have people coming to work that aren't putting their best foot forward, if they're not ⁓ thinking about the global aspect of what the Aesop is and and and how their minute details of their daily tasks kind of affect the Aesop on a on a on a on a macro. it's realistically tough to stay profitable. speaker-1: Welcome to the Construction Aesop Collective. I'm Chuck Mazzanti, Senior Vice President at Christiansen Group Insurance, and this is the show where we explore the wins, challenges, and real-world lessons of employee ownership in construction. Each episode brings insights from CFOs, former owners, and employee owners who are building something bigger together. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the Construction Aesop Collective. Today I'm joined by Bobby Sigman, president of Sessa Sheet Metal Contractors in Baltimore, Maryland. Bobby started at Sessa as an apprentice and over more than two decades worked his way through nearly every part of the business before becoming president. We talk about what that journey taught him about leadership, developing people. Building an employee ownership culture and adapting as the construction industry continues to change. Bobby's story is a powerful example of what can happen when opportunity and ownership come together. Bobby Sigman of Cessa Sheet Metal Contractors. Welcome to the Construction ESOP Collective. I'm thrilled to have you on, man. speaker-0: Thanks, Chuck. It's ⁓ it's good to good to be here and I appreciate you reaching out and ⁓ us making the connection. speaker-1: Yeah, no, I appreciate your willingness to to come on and ⁓ kind of interesting how we got connected through LinkedIn and that's that's been a lot of my relationships the past six months and I'm grateful, man. I've really enjoyed ⁓ getting to know ya and I'm super excited to dig in deeper on your story, obviously the Aesop story and the like. speaker-0: Yeah, it's fun. It's ⁓ you know, we we talked briefly earlier about ⁓ you know, the networking side of of what this business offers and ⁓ it's opened up a lot of conversation for me, a lot of, you know, growth in my professional career. So it's great. speaker-1: Yeah. Awesome. Well, to set the stage, I'd like to ⁓ you know, Sessa sheet metal contractors, you're in Baltimore, Maryland. ⁓ it's it's a tough market to do business from what I've I've been told. It's not for the faint to heart. And so if you could just kind of set the stage for the audience on, you know, what what do you guys do, roughly, how many employees, if you're comfortable sharing revenue, but you absolutely do not have to, but just to Get a little bit of a a window into your organization as it stands today. speaker-0: Okay. Yeah, no, ⁓ I mean Cessa's been around ⁓ Maryland, Baltimore for forty-five years. We just celebrated forty-five years ⁓ last year. ⁓ so you know, Tom started this business. you know, he's still alive and well and and and I talked to him, you know, ⁓ monthly if if if not more so. you know, we we are a fabrication, sheep metal fabrication and installation company here in Baltimore. ⁓ we supply or provide services for ⁓ hospitals, K through 12, industrial ⁓ some light the industrial ⁓ no commercial, so we're or ⁓ no residential, so we're baint mainly commercial. you know it it we've been here yeah we've been here for a long time. Our shop hasn't been on ⁓ five twenty nine North Haven for for forever. But ⁓ you know, Tom made an expansion ages ago and and we've been able to remain at this address and still provide service, you know, through Maryland and some parts, some some light touches in Pennsylvania, Virginia. ⁓ but we s we we try to stick to the market that we can build within till we're comfortable, you know, and then we'll grow. speaker-1: Hundred percent. Yeah, no, that makes sense. ⁓ and you have a super interesting story I wanna get into. Like we were talking ⁓ before I hit record. You know, whatever whoever sings a song, you know, you started at the bottom, now you're here. I think if there's anyone that's applicable to it's it's you. So can you get into how you ended up at Sessa and and what that looked like and kind of your can career journey to where we are today? speaker-0: Yeah, sure. That's you know, part of my my question was gonna be, do you want the long story or the short story? Because it's twenty-five years worth of stories. So I will do my best to, you know, truncate it as as much as I can. ⁓ so yeah, I ⁓ you know, went to Harford Technical High School, ⁓ a vocational high school, ⁓ conveniently enough, did not take HVAC or sheet metal. ⁓ I took electronics when I was in high school. So ⁓ by the time I graduated high school. I didn't know what I was gonna do. Had no idea. probably like many 17, 18 year olds. I have a son who's 17 now and and I'm sure he's going through the same thing. I don't know what to do. No clue. ⁓ at the time my dad is ⁓ he's he's born and bred sheet metal as well. ⁓ he's been doing sheet metal since he was 16. He had started with Sessa in ninety seven I believe ⁓ you know a couple years before I got out of high school. And you know, it was straight or nothing. College wasn't for me. It just ⁓ couldn't, you know, I just wasn't a fan of school and not everybody is. So ⁓ I'm not a full proponent either way, ⁓ of trying to talk my son into college himself. ⁓ so I took this road. ⁓ so my dad started, you know, ninety-seven. ⁓ by the time I got out of high school, I decided to ⁓ just jump on board with him. I said, I gotta do something. You know, I can't do nothing. And so did my parents as well. So so I started in full time. I started part-time with my dad, you know, working on weekends during school time school year. But 2001 I became full-time employee ⁓ and worked with my dad for for a a great number of years. was grateful for for him to teach me everything that he knew and and and the other people that are were around me. ⁓ I think ⁓ it Between two thousand one and two thousand ten, I I graduated from helper to mechanic, ⁓ to running my own work, and you know, grew I I mean, just it grew pretty quickly, I guess. ⁓ just based on the the teachings and the and the people that I worked with. I mean, some of the greatest people that I can remember, you know, in sheet metal. ⁓ you know, ⁓ I'm biased there, but I've learned from some of the greatest I feel in sheet metal. ⁓ So in 2010, I was on a j on a project. I ⁓ wrote an RFI to the office ⁓ at the time and I used ⁓ Microsoft Paint. I was drawing pictures of lockers or doing a section view of fire dampers. I re I remember the RFI, I believe. And ⁓ I sent it into the sh to the office and I think immediately, you know, I was within a f I felt like a couple weeks. I had gotten a phone call from the office to say, hey, do you want to come in here and make core data drawings for us? And yeah, sure. You know, I I I don't know what that means, but sure. Yeah, let's let's take that opportunity. I'll do whatever you need me to do. So fast forward, I'm ⁓ you know, I took the position. ⁓ mind you, the position had not existed in Sasa. I I came in, I had to learn software. I took an autoclad one o AutoCAD one o one class in the evenings to try to just kind of learn the basis of the platform. True of AutoCAD. ⁓ and then from that point on I said, Well, I don't need to sit through training. I can just kind of teach myself. I'm a pretty ⁓ literate in in terms of technical skill in the computer. So that's what I did. ⁓ for the next, you know what six, seven years, I just did coordinated drawings, ⁓ built kind of my position, ⁓ built structure within my position. ⁓ I also estimated in in that time. ⁓ I was learning estimation as well. I wasn't full-time coordinated drawings, you know, that wasn't like a full-time position at the time. It became so much so, but wasn't. Okay. So ⁓ I learned estimating, learned project management. ⁓ there's something I I think you learn ⁓ you gain when you draw a job. When you draw a job from the specs from the from the ⁓ the bare bones of the project and you 3D model it, you get a real real well rounded knowledge of the project. So it project managers only seemed fit. So in 2017 I was promoted to vice president, which I was able to successfully pass off the torch of draftsman ⁓ to a to another party inside the organization. when I was promoted ⁓ to vice president, I still handled kind of like the the estimating and and project management tools, ⁓ but then started getting into some more managerial level stuff. ⁓ we had a sister company, ⁓ TNT Manufacturing ⁓ that was that was up and running for many years. ⁓ I was ⁓ had the opportunity to try to run that company. ⁓ I say to try, ⁓ you know, keep it on its feet, keep it running, learn its process. ⁓ I spent ⁓ I I I spent ⁓ two or three years over there kind of trying to put them in a better space. And then unfortunately, sadly in in 2020 or 21, we ended up having to absorb that back into CESO sheet metal. Yeah. So we still make spiral pipe, but now under Cessa's umbrella ⁓ Sessa's name, not TNT manufacturing. So ⁓ that comes with its own challenges, learning spiral pipe versus just rectangular construction. Sure. ⁓ so in twenty three, so yeah, ⁓ in twenty three I was promoted to president. I'm sure I've left a few different jobs out. There's ⁓ Again, it's twenty five years. ⁓ I I've extended myself in a lot of ways to anyone that needs me. one of the it and most of you guys will see on LinkedIn the I don't list myself as president. I list myself as you name it at SSH Mill. So Yep. speaker-1: No, that's ⁓ that's an insane ⁓ cur career trajectory. And it it's funny because now it's everybody wants in on the trades, right? With where we you know, getting the electrical, getting the fabrication, get into the blue collar trades any way possible because people don't know what's gonna happen to white collar jobs with AI. For sure. speaker-0: It is great. speaker-1: I I also I did some college but I never finished. And I remember at the time I was like the black sheep, you know, like ⁓ Chuck didn't go, didn't get his degree, like he's gonna be a you know, a bust out or whatever. And it's like I I'm pretty happy where I ended up and I've spent my career focusing in and dealing with contractors like you, and ⁓ I I'd put a contractor up against any Harvard graduate Ivy League person. You guys have so much on your plate that the education you got from starting literally at the bottom to to now being the you name it AK president, ⁓ that knowledge just you can't read that in a book. You you learn that over a series of years. speaker-0: You're right. It's it's it's definitely learned. It's not you know, I'm not I'm not a sit down and read a book and then I I know it. It's ⁓ you put me in the you know, put me in the trench, you know. Teach me what do we have to do, you know? speaker-1: Yeah, and then you know it start to finish, soup to nuts, you know, where stuff goes wrong. So no, that's super interesting. Thanks for sharing that, Bobby. ⁓ so you guys went, correct me if I'm wrong, you guys went ASOP in two thousand six. speaker-0: Two thousand six we became speaker-1: Yeah, we we went a hundred percent ESAP as well two thousand six, so we speaker-0: Okay, so we didn't go a hundred percent. We ⁓ I think we went the standard thirty percent. So we've actually went through ⁓ and I don't want to get too far ahead, but we went through two buyouts so far. So right now we're at roughly s I think we're around seventy three, between seventy one and seventy three percent employee in. speaker-1: Okay. All right. So you've been kind of doing it in slugs, which is super interesting. I wanna I wanna drill into that at some point. But what I what I'm most curious about right now is 2006, you're at some point still kind of early on in your trajectory. Yeah. And Tom comes in one day, I have to assume, and says, Good news. You guys are employee owners. Can you do you remember that day? Can you walk us through that? speaker-0: And To be honest with you, Chuck, I can't say I remember that day. I was just, I mean, I I would been in the trade five years. ⁓ you know, I was only, you know, in my in my early 20s. you know, I remember hearing about, hey, we're Aesop owned UC statements. I I think at the time, and I I think if you look back from what I've from what I've read and would have would have discussed with other Aesop ⁓ owners, is Twenty years ago, Aesops were fairly new to the industry. So, you know, I've talked to Tom, I've talked to Kim Sessa, ⁓ vice president, and and other parties d in the company, and I don't know that we've fully understood, you know, ⁓ what Aesop was and what the culture was w required were required to kind of push what Aesop is. It's a message, yes. ⁓ But there comes so much more with it. That you know, there's there's so much more behind it. Actually Bill Bill DeGuy watching his ⁓ episode, ⁓ he said it best, which I think he said it's there's a lot more going on than you think. You know, and it's he said it greatly. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, Bill is ⁓ he's a wizard of all things, Aesop. Super interesting guy and one of the most genuine people you'll meet. Okay, so it was kind of like you you heard about it, there was maybe some rah rah, but it really Yeah. Obviously it didn't burn into your memory, so it wasn't that noteworthy at that stage. speaker-0: No, I'd say you're right there. I don't I don't think it ⁓ resonated to all the employees. ⁓ you know, as much as the people that were running the program were or, you know, ahead of it and and and making the decision to go Aesop, ⁓ they were still learning what Aesop was. So it it really realistically was tough to, you know, if you don't know what it is and and how it can ⁓ propel the company, let's say propel, you know, it's hard to reiterate that to your employee base. To your new employee owners, you know, it's that's tough. You you can tell ⁓ a story and say, ⁓ no, it's it's a retirement plan. You guys are good. It'll have this, it has this benefit. It's, you know, twenty five years from now you'll retire with, you know, hundreds or millions in the in the bank. And ⁓ you know, it it ⁓ it doesn't really resonate, I don't think, unless you can really compel the message a lot, you know, deeply. speaker-1: Sure. No, and then do you and if you don't, it's no big deal. We don't have to spend a a ton of time on it. But do you remember like where you were at the company when you went from thirty to fifty percent where you starting the kind of beyond management or at the seventy percent? I'm trying to get a gauge of if there's kind of been like a reassurgence where it's it's speaker-0: I want to say from what I've heard of it heard of our progress, ⁓ tw 2006, you know, we went 30%. And I think because the the company was was gaining profitability and we were, you know, doing so well, we were able to quickly pay down that note. ⁓ and then, you know, maybe five years after that, able to pay down another note. ⁓ so it it the the first two stages happened quickly. And I believe ⁓ You know, the the buyout of the owner has paused for at least ten ten years maybe, ⁓ till we just reestablished some ⁓ some ideas to to to gain more ownership into the eSub. speaker-1: Got it. Okay. And so now here we are present day. You're seventy percent ESAP. You're running the ship amongst a a mir a million and one other items you got on your desk any given day. Yes. When we first had the call, when Stacy of ⁓ I think her company's called Steel Toll Consulting, yes, marketing, Stacy's awesome also in in Baltimore area. When we first had our call, you were like, Chuck, I don't I don't know if you want me on. I'm not exactly I'm not the cheerleader at Esops like like you are. ⁓ so c can you share some some of your you know challenges or you know what's tell I'm always saying I love Aesops, they're so great. Check me, what's what's the drawdown? What are you struggling with? What what is kind of the pimples on the Aesop in your opinion? speaker-0: Yeah, so you know, the some of the drawdown is is is the planning and and the strategy to that goes into it. ⁓ if if you don't have that, you know, and and and culture, you know, to to to well round that idea. ⁓ if you don't have a few of those things, it's difficult. It's it truly is. It there's a you know, the culture is what I feel like builds the Aesop, not Aesop builds the culture. So if you don't have You know, and everybody can talk about culture and what it is and and who believes it and and and all of those things. But you know, if you realistically have people coming to work that aren't putting their best foot forward, if they're not ⁓ thinking about the global aspect of what the Aesop is and and and how their minute details of their daily tasks kind of affect the Aesop on a on a on a on a macro, ⁓ It's realistically tough to stay profitable. It's tough to promise your employee owners and your stockholder, you know, your shareholders those percentage increases or the the percentage allocations every year. You know, it gets it's a struggle. And, you know, the repurchase only grows, you know, as people become, you know, and ⁓ I think we did our first repurchase obligation study ⁓ maybe three, four years ago. ⁓ which is around the time. I think it's around 20 years. When you become a more chore Aesop, you ⁓ start to project out. And ⁓ you know, that that surfaced information to me really quickly about we got a plan for this, guys. We ⁓ like we need to know where where this money's coming from. You know, we have to have more of a predictionary aspect of ⁓ financials. speaker-1: Yeah, 100%. Yeah. RO's repurchase obligations. It's you get this tax-free money, right? When you go Aesop and you guys are 70%. So you're getting a, you know, it's not 100% tax-free, but there's serious tax benefits to an ESOP plan. And so that's great. Day one. But every subsequent day thereafter, it starts to turn into a liability. Yeah. With the repurchase obligation. And there's a ton of firms that And I'm not gonna say it's to their own fault, but there's unexpected stuff, right? So you do the repurchase obligation study, you can do a sustainability study, and you can do all the planning you want, and that helps, and you absolutely need to do that. But there's still, I mean, the longer you're a mature ASOP, there's people with real balances, seven-figure balances, and that doesn't mean they're 61 years old looking to retire. And if they leave when you had a conversation last year for planning purposes. And they're diehard Sessa, and you think, ⁓ that's that's not even on the you know, we're good, and then they leave. Yeah, it's real money, you know. That then what's how how are you paying them out? All those things, and there's ways to structure it to protect yourself as best you can. Yep. But yeah, it's there's companies that have had to sell because the ROs just get so heavy. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. You know? No, and I can understand that completely. You know, and it's it's kind of my goal over the next, you know, I'm it you know, again, three years of president, ⁓ three and a half years of president. I'm I'm seeing all this for the first time. So I'm up for the challenge, but you know, I've I've went to many ESOF conferences, talked to plenty of ⁓ people with insightful ⁓ point of views that that are helping me drive, you know, kind of my decision making. I read a lot, I I I in I investigate a lot. ⁓ it in in terms of you know how we can structure some type of of of plan going forward. speaker-1: Okay. And how do you how do you feel present day? Are you you know, obviously it sounds like it's a big lift. speaker-0: I I feel confident. I do. I I feel confident. ⁓ over the past couple of years. I've I've I've done a lot with the organization to to restructure some some things ⁓ operationally, ⁓ to to maintain, you know, a ⁓ predictable profitability, you know, something that we can sustain, something that we know is going to happen. ⁓ I I've done so much. I I can list it, but it it you know, it might be too long for the podcast, but You know, rolling out ⁓ tech and structure and HR and and ⁓ you know, doing so many things to try to ⁓ put us in the position so that when we do say Aesop or when we do say employee owner, hey, you own part of this, ⁓ they're proud to say they're part of it. You know, that they they they believe it. I mean, you have to have them believe it. And I want them to, and and because I do. You know, I I've been here for twenty five years. You know, it's something that we wanna remain doing for the for the next twenty five years. speaker-1: A hundred percent. ⁓ is it when you look at growing the business, right? Because first and foremost, your goal is to grow Sessa, ⁓ become more profitable, grow top line, all those things. Is it how are you managing the growth of Sessa while also getting the organization kind of restructured to to get ahead of the ROs? Is that choking growth a little bit while you get that side of the house in order? What does that look like? speaker-0: You know, it's it's one day at a time for me. ⁓ I'm You know, learning a lot of this, you know, as I as as we've we've continued to talk about I I've said that, you know, I'm I'm I'm learning all of this for the first time. So I'm figuring out what a whip report is in the past couple of years, you know. ⁓ and I'm figuring out how to use that as, you know, ⁓ a telltale on on certain things, backlogs such as, you know, ⁓ potential, you know, profit and and so much. So ⁓ yeah, learning the the everyday structure of the of the company I can't say has taken over the planning strategy for the Aesop, but yes, ⁓ you know, I I have I don't have as much time as I want to spend planning the strategy for Esop. First I have to take care of the company and make sure that, you know, we're good. speaker-1: Yeah. No, that that makes sense. ⁓ communication with the employees. How what are you doing around making sure the you know the guys and gals in the shop and in the field understand, you know, the benefit of of ESOP and improve retention as well as hiring. speaker-0: So we we tried in the so as I said over the past couple of years we've went to ⁓ a few Aesop conferences and you know it's it's it's fun 'cause you you said drank the Kool-Aid, right? And and I hate to put it in those terms, but ⁓ you know, when you go to a ⁓ an Aesop conference, ⁓ they do a really great job of just ⁓ reinvigorating you to what an Aesop is. And so you come back home And you want to do this and you want to do that. And hey, let's do this and let's start a committee and let's do these things. And and you do, you know, and we've started that. And it it tends to fizzle out if you don't stay engaged with with with the idea of of of having that involvement. So ⁓ we've done some things. We've done ⁓ you know, some axe throwing ⁓ things to ⁓ promote 100% vested ⁓ employees, ⁓ We do email blasts ⁓ through our HR portal, d having like a QA, maybe like a raffle or something, and say, hey, if you can get close to, you know, how many shares or to see what what they actually know about the eSup. And you know, we we try to involve them in those. ⁓ nothing in person. I actually I did do one in person ⁓ it for my new hires. I I ended up having like a premiere of of like a hey this is what we this is our company and then here's here's an explanation of the eSop early. ⁓ th those employees aren't vested. ⁓ you know, it takes a while for them to be vested into the company. We have a six year vesting schedule. But you know, this is what you can do. You know, but you know Those are things we're looking at into our plan docs as well as that besting schedule, how long it takes to become, you know, an employee owner and and looking into all those levers that you can pull to promote. speaker-1: Sure. And what ⁓ have you gotten any feedback? Where where's the ⁓ you know, how's the feedback been from from the field? speaker-0: You know, it it it it doesn't resonate. Still doesn't. I I'll be honest with you. It's it still doesn't resonate. ⁓ I was watching your podcast, I think it was with with David. David Jager. and I think it was towards the end of the podcast. And he said or you were you you or David said the same thing and and it was more, you know, the guys are more worried about the money in their their hands right now. They're the you know, they're paycheck to paycheck. They want they want the money now and and and I think that's You know, I remember those days. I remember those days out in the field. You know, that's what it was like for me. ⁓ and you know, so you wanna help you wanna help them build the idea of of of retirement, and but you don't want to just try to sell it to them as a retirement plan because again, you change the way that they perform each day daily, and that supports the Aesop. It's not it's not the other way around, in my opinion. speaker-1: Yeah, no, that's a good point. It's it's a process, and people are skeptical of is this too good to be true? Are you underpaying me and touting that the Aesop is the carrot? You know, I have to wait till I retire to see this, other companies are throwing more money at me. And then the same message doesn't resonate across the the populace, right? If if you're 50 years old, you're gonna hear it differently than When you were on the shop floor in your, you know, late teens, early twenties. And so it's it's figuring out how to communicate it and also knowing your employee base well enough that how you tell Bobby something may have to be communicated differently. So Chuck receives it, you know, and that's a lot of work. While again, to your point, you're learning about the whip, you got your backlog, construction's a cyclical business, so you're you're trying to project out like how to stay. ⁓ And now here's another thing. It's like the work doesn't stop, but now you just got more work with the Aesop. And yeah. And it's stuff that we're not trained on. So no different than how you learn the business, it's taken you twenty five years. Like speaker-0: Yeah, no, and I I I I forecast, you know, I'm going to be learning Aesop until the the you know, somewhat the day I retire. You know, 'cause they they continue to evolve as well. You know, there's changes that are made, there's legislation that comes out, there's there's things that evolve on just the principles of an Aesop. So, you know, I'll continue to learn and I'll continue to teach, you know, those behind me. But, you know, I what I'm hoping to build is a a a a more of a succession plan for for for me and the employees. You know, than I kind of stepped into. speaker-1: Yeah. If I you don't have to tell me the balance, but are you at least happy with your, you know, ESOP balances it's speaker-0: I am for sure. Yes. No, I am for sure. And you know, it's outside of the Aesop. I mean, I, you know, have you you have your own 401s and you have these things, but some there's there's some employees, there's some that aren't provided that opportunity, you know, and I and I get that. And so that's one thing with the Aesop that we try to do is say, look, this isn't this is this is not your your money. Like this you like you don't, or not your money, you don't fund this. Like this is something you do not fund, you fund it with. Your resilience, your your ability to come to work every day, the productivity that you produce to produce, ⁓ and then just your attitude and just just keep pushing and keep training, keep learning, keep trying to push that down. You know, there's a message that I I had recently with some of my employees that and and you said it well with is you you target your conversation with the let's say the age gap, right? The the age from from 17 to 25. You know, they're they don't to hear about Aesop. From twenty-five to forty-five, they want to hear about Aesop. From forty-five to sixty, they're like, Well, I'm not gonna see this when I when I'm done anyway. So, ⁓ you know, it I I think when we talk about the Aesop and we talk about the owners themselves, they have a duty, you know, in those age gaps, in those time frames, they have a duty. ⁓ and I made a a clear example of that to the employees and said the ones that are 45, the ones that are that are retiring. You owe it to yourself, one, to teach the younger people about Aesop, about productivity, about what it can be. So that way, you know, when they do retire, you're you're training your retirement fund almost. You know, and you're you're you're pushing a a wage force or or a a force You know, to to help fund your ESOP. And that's that's what I'm doing myself. I I always say, I tell most of the people here is I'm here for another 25 years, but I need the Aesop. I need this thing to operate for at least another 30 or 40, you know, because I don't get the benefit. So that's what I'm trying to build is that structure and that sustainability. speaker-1: You know, you made, I don't know if I've heard someone put it in plain English with the point you just made that I think is so important. And it's what we're dealing with at Christensen Group Insurance. Same exact thing. The sustainability of the ESEP, amongst all maybe the more I'll call it more obvious points, is your populace has to be pretty well spread out from old to to middle career to new. And exactly what you just said, the the old and middle career need to really help bring in the new because without the new blood coming in, the Aesop gets top heavy. Yeah. And it's not sustainable. And so it's kind of a not only do Aesop spread the wealth and it's just not rolling up to one single owner or a PE, you know, group of investors or what have you, it spreads it across and that's a a benefit to it. But This is kind of a blessing and a curse depending on what people are willing to take on, because you really need to get the the younger guys and gals to be bought in. Yeah. Otherwise it's not sustainable. speaker-0: No, you do. You have to you have to and and I don't I don't look at it. I I hate the the selling it to them, right? I hate that kind of context. I don't want to sell it to you. I want I want you to want to know about it. I want you to want to participate in this. So it's I I don't look at it as I hate I hate sitting in an interview and trying to sell this thing to someone. It's not something. It's you know, what are you doing to plan? You know, it's how are you planning this? Are you doing anything to plan? And You know, even if you're not, we're planning for you. You know, that type of thing. speaker-1: And you have a direct impact. So Bob Whelan, who I had on the podcast from HB Global, did a post yesterday on LinkedIn. And he's obviously very outspoken. He wrote a book onesops, and he's the quit essential. You know, he's got kind of the holding company, done 30 acquisitions, but he made a post saying that he's a big advocate to get their employee owners to invest outside of the ESOP. You need to be diversified. And I think that's that's good. But we all everyone hears of the story of, ⁓ I, you know, invested in Bitcoin at you know 27 cents and now I got millions of dollars. ⁓ or I was an early investor in Tesla, whatever it is. Sure. You have zero impact. I could buy, I could drink Coca-Cola till I'm riddled with diabetes. It's not gonna make a difference on the share price. However, at you know, my firm, Christensen Group or your firm, Sessa. I can make a direct impact on the share price, which then goes into my pocket. Yeah. And that's one of the coolest things that people grasp it, that it's like if I help move the needle as far as top line revenue, if I get more bought in on safety and not having claims, so your insurance goes up. If I'm more I don't have as much sheet metal waste because I'm actually thinking about, hey, let's, you know, a dollar saved is a dollar earned. All the quality control, making sure the customer's happy, so their repeat, all those things tie into the share price and the growth, which then is your retirement. And so I it's it's obviously I'm a little biased, but I I think it's one of the coolest things that you have speaker-0: I mean naturally, yeah. You you know, we're obviously the program administrators, right? We're we're the ones running the thing and we're making all the decisions, but they do. They they're the ones that impact the bottom line the most, you know. They you know, so so why wouldn't you want to have some some partake in, you know, the the accomplishments that you that you you complete as a company, you know, a as an employee owner. You know, you can say, I I helped I helped increase that share value. I'm the one that did that. And and I think from one to another, it it holds it it it holds them more accountable to each other as a as a unit, you know, not just not just, hey, you know, John's not doing what he should be doing. Well, talk to John. Tell him how it's impacting you and impacting everybody else. Like let's let's move it as a unit. Let's let's let's push this as a as as a together thing and and and let's rise, you know, right raise that that share price. ⁓ yeah. And safety, say you, you, you, you ⁓ talked about safety, and that's that's something, you know, it you don't think it it almost inadvertently affects the share price, right? You don't realize it. You don't realize it, and especially the guys in the field, they just want to get the job done. ⁓ but I will say that over the past, you know, this at least this past year, we've done a great job at safety. And I don't I, you know, if my goal over the over the next year is to to to notify the employees just how impactful that was to us, you know, and getting our, you know, our our rating down and and and making sure that, you know, we're within the thresholds that we need for this industry, you know, to to gain contract access and and so forth. speaker-1: Well and not have elevated insurance spend, which then erodes margin, which then erodes share price. Yeah. It it it's a self policing system in my opinion. It really is. Once once you grasp it. speaker-0: Correct. Yeah. Yeah. No, sir. Every day is different. Every day is a is is a you know, a chance to to teach, I think, you know, them about Aesop. And I I try to use it in my everyday talk, you know, so much that it's you know, they probably get they get tired of hearing it. ⁓ I went to a ⁓ funny story, short story, went to an Aesop conference, came back. I I'm not it might have been my first one and and they really put you on the spot there. They they they get you out of your comfort zone, right? ⁓ they get you standing up, talking to people, associating with people that you've never met before. And ⁓ we got to a point where we're high fiving people around the room and this and that. So I came home from that eSOP conference and I just walked down the hall and I was just throwing high fives and no one knew what was going on. They're like, What is this? What's going on? And I said, look, I you know, happy to have you here. Like let's let's I I try to be as positive a as I can with ⁓ with whoever I interact with and in and extend that same I want them to be the same. I want them to be passionate about working. I want them to be passionate about their their projects, their what they're producing and the ESA. I want them to feel like like they have a true vestment in in what we're doing here. speaker-1: Yeah, no, I agree with that. How about on growing Sessa, you know, what's the conversation been? Has it been received well? Do you feel like you're getting more work because you could tell you guys are employee owned? Is it is it the tiebreaker between you and a another sheet metal contractor where it's like, hey, we're pretty similar on the bid, but we went with Sessa because they're employee owned versus you know not? speaker-0: You know, it's funny you asked that because I I've thought about that myself and I myself have ⁓ you know, from a vent let's say from a vendor standpoint to a you know, selling to a customer or ⁓ you know, yeah, selling to a customer. I I've I've talked to other employee owner companies and I'm like, ⁓ we should do business. Like we have to do business because the ESOP community is a is a well round well-rounded community and I know that they're you know, hey, let's work together, let's work together. So I don't I can't say that I've had contracts swing one way or the other based on the Aesop title. Sure. but I will say that I, you know, I I I implore, you know, the idea to say, hey, let's go work with that person because they're employee and because they, you know, poss possess the same values that we sh that we have, you know, and and employee owners have. So ⁓ we do work with a few different employee owners. Boseville Tre ⁓ I'm sorry, Bose Ketchup Walton is an employee owner that we do work with. ⁓ they're a customer vendor of ours. ⁓ the Bell Company is a is a large ⁓ employer in the in the community. So, you know, there are other employer owners out there that we do work with. One way or the other, whether that stems a contract, I don't know that they want to tell me that anyway. You know, it's it's usually it's A lot of it has to do based on numbers, so speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, the number I mean the numbers have to to work out, of course. ⁓ but I at some point over years and years of doing this podcast, I I'm gonna die on this hill, but I'm gonna get the data to show Aesop run contractors operate better from a safety standpoint, thus should get better premiums. Sure. And then definitely publicly traded or private equity. speaker-0: I don't even know speaker-1: Yeah, and then furthermore, if if the numbers make sense, of course, but why not do some J V deals with other ESAP bone contractors? And if if the employee owners really believe in it, that job's gonna run safer and now you don't have the other trade kinda lacking because both work populations are bought in. So it will speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea. That's a great idea, Chuck. Yeah. Kudos to you. speaker-1: That's Well, we'll see. That's that's the idea, the execution and the the data. We'll talk to me in five minutes. speaker-0: Gonna be a wh yeah, yeah, right. It'll be a little while, but you'll get there. Yeah. For sure. speaker-1: Baby steps. Yep. ⁓ where's Sessa going? You know, what's your five where do you want to be in five years? speaker-0: Gosh, I you know, I I I I usually tell my team and I d they laugh at me, but ⁓ I usually have to tell them to I tell them to tell me to stop. Like stop with the ideas. Stop with the with the ideas of where we're going. ⁓ I love challenges, I love puzzles, I love, you know, s certain things of that magnitude. So ⁓ what I've been faced with over the past three years is definitely a challenge. and I'm I I feel like I'm, you know, really doing a a great job at it and and the reason I say that is because I have a staff and a team that that is telling me that, you know, they're telling me so. And ⁓ although I you know At three years ago I didn't think I was I was suited for the job. ⁓ but you know, I'm here and and and everyone behind me is very supportive of what I'm doing. So ⁓ you know, I I I want to do more. ⁓ I think I I've I'm a find a need, fill a need kind of guy. It's like, hey, what do you what are you looking to do? ⁓ let me see if we can help you with that. And I've caught myself really just recently championing and you'll see it on LinkedIn soon enough. ⁓ I've been posting pictures and things in that on there and I I've I've ⁓ again, you you said the same thing with your networking space, but I I find myself championing things ⁓ to a point where We don't normally do these types of things, you know, as a as a company. Like, ⁓ this isn't we have never made this before. Yeah, but that doesn't mean we can't. So you know, I've I've found myself, you know, manufacturing some parts and pieces for people where others would just say, Yeah, no, we don't do that. So I don't I don't I don't I don't want any part of that. I don't or that part of that job or part of this thing. ⁓ I like to find solutions. I I do. And so I I I want to grow. ⁓ I think, you know, publicly I I think that's something Sessa should be able to do is ⁓ something in the service space in the future. you know, because of where we are and and and my I guess early stages of where I am presidency wise. ⁓ you know, I don't think MA is for us right now, but it's it's a space that I like watching. I like listening about, listening to. ⁓ I've investigated into and and so you know I I'm I think 10 years, 10 years from now, we may not be in this building, we may be in a different facility, ⁓ something that's more conducive to growth. ⁓ but time will tell. But yeah, no, I'm I'm I I want to do more. ⁓ and and I think my team does too. ⁓ you know, so we're we're pushing. We're pushing the envelopes in a in a few different ways. speaker-1: Love it. I I'm not gonna bet against Bobby. I'm I'm excited to talk to you July 30th, 2037, assuming AI hasn't put us extinct. And I I'm super pumped to see where you guys are gonna be. I think just from getting to know you, you're a passionate guy. You care about your fellow employee owners, you care about stretching the business. I mean, the fact that you're like, hey, you know what? We don't do this all the time, but let me we could fabricate that or we could do this. You know, you're a I'll I'll figure it out kind of guy, which I have to assume will get you repeat business and help grow in that way too. speaker-0: I think it g yeah, it gets you somewhere, right? It it whether you you you you fail, you we're not doing that again, or we need to do this differently. So I'm I'm definitely a full proponent of of of failing. Failing is is as much as we don't want to. failing is important. I think it's one of the b the the best things on growth is failing. So I tell a lot of people here, a lot of a lot of even and sitting in a lot of interviews, we expect you to fail. I expect you to fail every day. But I expect you to grow and and learn from what you did fail on. So it's it's something I push through to most of my employees that I talk to. You gotta fail forward. speaker-1: Right. If you fail and then it's ⁓ you kinda tur turn into like a a crab and go into your shell, then yeah, that's not a good thing. But if you if you're being conservative, you're not stretching, you're not learning, you're not growing both professionally as well as personally. So failure is it's unavoidable, but you gotta fail forward. Not this is what I'm not gonna do again. This is what I learned from that failure, this is what I'm gonna do the next time it presents. So I I think your point's well noted. The one other thing I wanted to touch on because we before we s hit record, we were talking about networking and what it's meant to to each of us individually. You're you're going to be or are you the president of Baltimore ASA? I'd I'd like to hear more about that. speaker-0: be I'm going to be so ⁓ Sessa's I think Sessa's been a member of ASA ⁓ for ⁓ it might be since '95. It's been a long time. We've been a longstanding member. ⁓ Tom was ⁓ associates with some of the founding members I think of the Baltimore chapter. So ⁓ yeah you know I think for a long period of time we were paying dues ⁓ attending some events here and there. Over the past three years I've made a ⁓ a a significant ⁓ step in in in involving our reinvolving ourselves with with ASA. So I became a board member last year, maybe about a year and a half ago. and and became ⁓ secretary this year, which ⁓ is the road to presidency in two years. So in in twenty twenty eight I I will be the will be the twenty twenty eight president of of Baltimore. ASA of Baltimore. So ⁓ and that again, it's and that's that's something I picked up. I mean, on top of everything else. And and I just said, yeah, sure, why not? You know, it wasn't I did think about it. It was something I thought about. I I thought about how obviously it's gonna affect me personally, you know, from a from a home life standpoint. ⁓ but it's it's been significant on of my network and and and the growth of of me personally and I think the company. I I I'm I'm put in front of more people than I think I could ever think of, you know, with the opportunity and just to have a conversation, to maybe open up a door for something. So it's it's been fun. speaker-1: You gotta stretch yourself and you're you're living proof you're doing that. ⁓ well, congratulations on the upcoming presidency. I think it sounds like it's very well deserved. I'm excited to see where that chapter goes under your your tutelage. what's been your biggest, you know, you've been involved in it for three years super actively. What's what's been the, you know, one or two biggest kind of life changing moments, if you could call out, you know, one of them or learning lessons. speaker-0: ⁓ you know, I think for the most part. Staying engaged with the employees is is is a struggle. ⁓ you know, I stay behind a desk, I stay behind a monitor and and and you know, you're as a president you don't get to see face to face every employee. ⁓ so I think you end up losing a little bit of traction there with with the obviously the s sell of of of Eesop and and what it ⁓ what it involves. ⁓ so you know, my my goal ⁓ it's it's something I haven't been able to necessarily ⁓ produce on, but my goal is to get out to the field and and start talking to these people from the horse's mouth, you know, from the guy that's sitting in the chair, ⁓ to make it make him realize that I I'm not just I'm not a president, you know. I d I'm I'm an employee owner too. Yeah. And ⁓ although calling the shots here and there, like I but I still am an employee owner. So, you know. I I'm working for you. You know, I'm not I'm not just working for myself. I'm working for you. I you know, if if I don't drive this ship the right way, if I don't put this in the right ⁓ predicament, then you know, I'm not doing I'm doing them a a true disservice, you know. So you know, I've put I've put a lot of I feel like I put a lot of people in the right places over the past couple of years. When I started three years ago, I would s it was ⁓ me, Joe Uden, ⁓ and another staff member ⁓ on the estimating and and project management side. So ⁓ very slim and and my vice president, ⁓ Patrick Lowry. And we you know, we we sat down, we talked, and we said, okay, what are we gonna do? And and I I made a goal to hire a team ⁓ to make sure that we have the support we need to support our customers and to make sure that we sustain ⁓ the next couple of decades. And Over the course of the past three, four years, three, three and a half years, ⁓ we've we've assembled a a really good team, I feel like. And ⁓ some have come, some have gone, but it's been eye-opening through a process. ⁓ we've had some of the largest turnover in in certain positions that the company's ever had over 45 years. ⁓ but it I d if me and ⁓ the Kim Sessa, the vice president, have this ⁓ the theme over the past three three and a half years for us has been ⁓ well there's a first ⁓ because we've had a lot of firsts over the past three and a half years, ⁓ you know, in many different factions of the company. speaker-1: Okay. To to kind of land the plane on on our episode, I want to ask you two the same question from two different perspectives. Let's pretend I'm a you know a ten million dollar specialty trade contractor. We're having a couple cocktails at ASA Baltimore, and I say, you know what, Bobby? I I gotta find an exit. P's knocking at my door, but I really don't wanna do that. You know, one of my biggest competitors wants to buy me, but I don't know what he or she's gonna do with with my people. I know you guys are Aesop. Why should I do it? And then the same question to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't I do it? speaker-0: Really, I'd I would ask that person what their goals are. You know, it's not a it's not a it's not a yes or no question on on what the Aesop is. It's not it ⁓ from what I've learned. It's you know, you have to understand what you want as an owner, what you want out of your exit strategy. if you're in it for the dollar, you know, I I I do think PE might be the the route. that you take from from and again, I don't know that route, but it from just from what I hear and and what I see, you know, if you're in it for the dollar, it seems like the PE would be the decision to make. If you do genuinely care like Tom Sasa did about your employee base, about about your longstanding, long running employee base, you know, because at the time I think we became employee owned, or at least went through that first initial purchase. We had ⁓ employees that were to already tenured, you know, 10, 15, 20 years in in in the company. And I think when you have that, you you genuinely have a a culture. You already have people that are that are s standing up to that culture of what employee owners are. They're longstanding. They're they're you know they're they're playing the game long. They're they're doing this They're they want to stay with you, they love everything about you, they like the culture and they're they're sticking around. So I I think I would explain it as ⁓ from a sense of if you do and and and you the owner are sticking around too, you know, and and to to help guide and to help champion the idea of what the Aesop is. ⁓ you have to you have to have that first before I think you make the jump into an eSop. It obviously comes with its own struggles with finances and And and planning strategy, but you have to have the culture first and foremost, I think, before you jump into an ESOP. speaker-1: That's great advice. Well, Bobby, I think that's a good ⁓ point to land the plane. I'm super grateful you came on. I've enjoyed this and I think ⁓ there's a lot to be gleaned from your wisdom. speaker-0: Yeah, this has been great, Chuck. I do appreciate it. I'd never thought I would have had a story for someone to listen to, but ⁓ you opened up my eyes to storytelling. So speaker-1: I guarantee you there's ⁓ there's gonna be a lot of ⁓ I mean I've learned from this. So I know the audience is there's gonna be a lot to be learned and I appreciate your willingness to share. speaker-0: That's great. ⁓ good luck to the rest of your podcast, Chuck. This is a great idea, man. speaker-1: Thank thank you, Bobby. We'll see ya. speaker-0: Take care. speaker-1: Thanks for listening to the Construction Aesop Collective. If this was useful, follow the show and share it with a colleague. Join the conversation with me, Chuck Mazzanti, on LinkedIn and find all episodes at constructionesopcollective.com. Until next time, keep building ownership one conversation at a time.